Sami Hamdi – Raving in Riyadh The New Saudi Arabia
AI: Summary ©
The speakers discuss various heroic events, including "mon Naq El" and "monster's hero," as well as "monster's hero," which is the French's hero. They also mention "monster's hero" and "monster's hero" as examples of heroic events. The real state is that China's minimal role suggests the Iran-NAV truce aims to prevent the Houthis from winning and reforming the government to prevent the Houthis from winning.
AI: Summary ©
No Saudi prince in power. No king or Crown Prince has ever said this
to us before. No crown prince or king has ever said to an American
official, we need to reign in Islam in Saudi Arabia, no one has
ever said this to American official before, and we went back
to Washington stunned that at last we have a prince who's now talking
in these terms.
Sami Hamdi, it's a pleasure to have you with the thinking Muslim,
salaam alaikum. Thank you for having me. Muhammad JazakAllah,
well, look, there's so much to discuss today. I've called you in
to discuss Saudi Arabia, from the war in Yemen to raves in Riyadh. I
want to understand Saudi Arabia as a regional power. Many see the
country as a staunch ally, if not a stooge, of the United States.
Yet others hail it as a an independent country that's path
that's forging an independent path from Moon sighting to Hajj, the
country remains at the center of Muslim religious life, yet we
can't but observe with horror the activities of its crown prince,
the de facto leader, Muhammad bin Salman. So how do we analyze the
country and its future now, many Muslims have been appalled by the
soft secularization of the country. We have seen the arrests
of prominent sheikhs. We've seen the control of religious
authorities and the grotesque spectacle of raves in Riyadh. Yet
I note this fahisha has been embraced by many of the country's
youth. How do we interpret this liberalization? Thank you for
having me. I think first and foremost to understand what's
going on in Saudi Arabia. I think it's important to stress that
politics is a science of human relations. The reason why I
mentioned that is because the same way that the human being feels
fear, happiness, sadness, despair and the like. It's the same way
that states feel. The reason why I mentioned that is to state that a
lot of the policies that have taken place in Saudi Arabia are
not part of a strategy that's been organized in the long term, but a
lot of it has actually been reactionary as opposed to anything
else. And I think that one of the things that's important to note
when it comes to the policies that bin Salman has been implementing
is this idea that he sees that Saudi Arabia is under significant
pressure. The economy badly needs to be diversified. The Foreign
Policy badly needs to tackle the issues of an Iranian pincer, Iraq
militias to the north, Iran to the east, and Houthis in the Yemen to
the south. The relationship with the US, which has become
increasingly aggressive, particularly during the Trump
administration, in demanding that oil policy be set in a particular
way that is counterproductive to Saudi Arabia's market
domestically, Bin Salman had to wrestle with very powerful
princes, Mohammed bin Nayef, who was once Crown Prince, who
received a prize from the CIA in 2017 the clearest indication from
Washington as to who they wanted to be crown prince, he had to face
off against Mita bin Abdullah, the son of the former King Abdullah,
who was head of the National Guard, who at one point managed to
change the governors of Riyadh and Mecca to his full brothers In
order to try to orchestrate the downfall of Bin Salman's father as
Crown Prince. In other words, Vincent man, since 2014 2013 has
had to wrestle with very, very difficult situation that anybody
in his position would have to take very drastic measures. I'm not
saying this necessarily to justify what bin Salman is doing, but
certainly to lend an appreciation that Vincent man has found himself
in a position where he has to do something radical. And that
radical thing has been about this idea of vision, 2031,
of the aspects of trying to get the Saudi population to put up
with his reforms, particularly with regards to economic reforms,
has been the introduction of these entertainment facilities. Imagine
you are Mohammed bin Salman, and you know that you are going to
have to reel back the patronage. You're going to have to reel back
the benefits you gave to Saudis on housing, reel back the benefits
you gave them on subsidies with oil, reel back the subsidies that
you gave them on their wages. You will have to put Saudis into work
that they historically have been disinclined towards, and they
preferred the Indians and Bengalis and Pakistanis and these other
people to do it as well. Bin Salman needs a trade off for that,
because he believes that in a climate which has seen the Arab
Spring, there is a risk of the people going into a backlash. So
part of this entertainment policy is within this this idea itself.
But that's not the whole picture. It's also worth noting that bin
Salman is the product of what I call the NBC generation. For those
who don't know NBC, it was a channel that was based in Dubai
that always used to deny that it was backed by Saudi but it had all
the licenses for the Hollywood films, and it would broadcast them
24 hours to the Arab population. A lot of the Mashiach in Saudi
Arabia, in the 2000s would complain to the king and say, this
is going to ruin our future generation. This is going to ruin
what's going to happen to our future generation. And the king
would reply and say, we have nothing to do with NBC, until in
2008 or 2009 I could be wrong, but certainly the late 2000s Walid bin
Brahim, the chairman of NBC, made the state.
That shocked everybody, and actually gave an indication as to
which trajectory Salman would go if he became king. Walid bin Rahim
told the forum in the UAE that Salman bin Abdulaziz el salud, you
can find it on YouTube. The video is still there. He said, word for
word, Salman bin Abdulaziz el salud has been one of our greatest
patrons, and I am in regular contact with him almost daily to
decide the schedule program of what should be broadcast on NBC
Salman at a time in which he was hosting all the conservative
scholars or the like. But the reason why I say that is that MBS
is the product of a generation that grew up on MBC, that grew up
believing that the western world is the model that we should be
following and implementing to achieve economic prosperity, and
that we are being held back by the religion, by Islam. And the proof
of that is that as soon as bin Salman became Crown Prince in 2017
the first international tour he does is to the US. He does a
lavish, lavish tour. In 2018 he meets Oprah Winfrey, he meets Mark
Zuckerberg, he meets Donald Trump, he meets anybody, who's everybody,
who's anybody in the US. And the message is clear, he doesn't go to
Beijing, he doesn't go Moscow, he doesn't go to the European
capitals if he visits them. He doesn't do a tour like he did in
the US. But the message is clear, my vision 2030, is to make Saudi
Arabia look like you, to look American with Western help,
Western models, Western investment, Western technology,
Western ideas to implement within Saudi Arabia itself. And this is
why we see that in 2018 2019 he begins to invite Nicki Minaj, who
turns him down, then he invites Mariah Carey. Then he does a giant
rave in the desert, but he does it in Jeddah, which is known as the
gates of Mecca. And suddenly the Saudis are seeing this change.
It's not necessarily that Saudis approve of it, but more that they
cannot believe that it's happening in their country. And one of the
thing that's quite fascinating is this, people often say that
there's a suggestion that the Saudis are happy with what's
happening, but I think it's far more nuanced than that. The social
contract that Vincent man is establishing in Saudi Arabia is a
simple one. I will give you bikini beaches, I will give you giant
raves. I will give you entertainment nightclubs. I'll let
you do all of these entertainment activities that you've seen on
NBC. In exchange, you will be apolitical. You won't ask me for
civil engagement. You won't ask me for civil participation. You won't
ask me for political participation. The Saudis are in a
situation whereby they are contemplating whether that's a
viable trade off. Because one of the things that's quite
fascinating is after people started exploring the idea of a
social contract, there is a journalist from the economist
actually went to Saudi and every person she interviewed said that
they're not sure what to make of these entertainment policies,
because they know friends who are now being imprisoned and arrested
for tweets despite having no history of activism, people being
imprisoned for liking a tweet even though they have no history of
activism, suggesting that the reality of the price that they're
paying for these giant raves is hitting too close to home. And the
second point that's worth noting is this, in a society in which you
are imprisoned for a tweet, or removed from your job for a tweet.
For example, Sheik Salah al mu I know he's
under huge controversy at this moment in time, but before he
became a very controversial figure with his statements on Omar ibn
abdaziz and the like, in recent times, Sheik al musi put a tweet
during covid times in which he said, and you can find it. It's
still available. I think actually, you can find some articles that
screenshotted it. Sheik Muhammad said that Corona is a punishment
from Allah, and we should address it by doing the following. We
should make plenty of istikhar ask Allah to forgive us. We should
give plenty of charity to those who need it, and we should pardon
where possible those who have wronged themselves and those
who've been put in prison. Everybody interpreted as, please
stop imprisoning people. He was removed from his post from Mr.
Koba, the tweet didn't seem that bad. Abdul Aziz a khalifi, for
example, put out a tweet in which he said that the IPO sale of
Aramco will not satisfy the Americans. We should not allow
them to have the greatest stake in Aramco. I think Americans
currently have about 5% or maybe less than that. We should not let
them have more. He was imprisoned for commenting on that. In a
society such as this, it's not easy to talk it's not easy to
convey your opinion, primarily because if you're sitting there,
suddenly the walls have ears. If you know that, that's all it takes
for you to go to prison, you're hardly going to get to Saudi who
says, I'm against what's happening in Saudi Arabia at this moment in
time. And I think what really brought a lot of people to their
senses on this point is a video that went viral of I'm trying to
put this in a way that sounds respectable for this particular
platform, but a woman who was in the nightclub surrounded by a
group of Saudi men, and they're all dancing, and she's dancing in
a very provocative way, hashtag twerking, and as the men are
clapping And they start trying to grab her. She visibly on her face,
starts to panic, as if suddenly this, she's saying, This is not
what I signed up for. And everybody started seeing the
reality for what it is, what it is that Vincent man is allowing it.
But going back to your question in terms of digressing when we're
talking about why Vincent man is implementing it, the reality is.
Saudi doesn't need drastic changes to its economy. It needs drastic
changes even to its social contract. 100% there are many
people, even if they disagree with entertainment, have long disagreed
with the way that Saudis manage their deen or Saudi fatawa that
come out of Saudi Arabia that many believe do not allow for correct
social cohesion or the like. So I would like to ask you about so how
much is this down to the austere interpretation of Islam that many
analysts here in the West argue has created this reaction
Salafism, the very conservative Islam that prohibited even what we
would term to be acceptable forms of entertainment. How much of it
is a reaction to that decades long form of Islam.
I think that I would rephrase it slightly and say, to what extent
has that meant that the counter arguments towards bin Salman have
been weakened significantly as a result of this idea. In other
words, the Saudi is telling you, look, listen, you Muhammad Jalal,
and I'm not saying this is your view, but the Saudi is saying to
you, yeah, Muhammad,
you yourself do not agree with much of how they were interpreting
the deen in the first place. Why are you asking me to go back to
that? And this is the issue in here, in that Vincent man is going
from one extreme. If I dare to use the word extreme, it will upset
some people from one extreme right to the other. They cover the woman
from head to toe, where barely her eyes are being seen, to stripping
her down to a bikini. It's going from one extreme all the way to
the other. And I think that's one of the reasons why in Saudi Arabia
it's happening quite forcefully. And the second reason it's
happening quite forcefully is that if you think about the prevalence
of the deen in Saudi Arabia, the idea that this is society that was
taught that you must obey the ruler, even if he whips you 100
times. The idea that the deen is about very established norms for
both genders in society and the like bin Salman is aware that that
has the ability to provoke a violent backlash to his reforms.
So Bin Salman is essentially adopting a policy of go hard or go
home. I'm going to imprison all of these mashek to keep them quiet,
to let them know I will not tolerate you guys mobilizing
against me with regards to these reforms. And immediately you've
seen the mash. You've seen many who've done 180 in terms of what
they've actually been doing because of the fear that they've
been having. But I think when we're looking at the brand of
Salafism that Saudi Arabia is, one thing that I will say is this, and
I'm very wary in terms of how we talk about Salafism in Saudi
Arabia, primarily because a lot of the funding for Dao and other
countries came from Saudi Arabia. A lot of the copies of the Quran,
a lot of the DUA received funding from Saudi Arabia, even if they
weren't Salafis. A lot of the organizations received funding
even if they weren't Salafis. There's been a lot that Saudi has
done good as a result of the brand of Salafism that they have. It's
not a defense of Salafism. We all have the criticisms of it. But the
point here being is that Saudi Arabia, as a result of its unique
brand of Salafism, is now implementing bin Salman's vision
2030, in a unique way, which is, crush these mache and then let me
do what I want in order to prevent them from giving that back. The
Saudi authorities are not forcing young people to attend these
attend these
concerts and cinemas and various other forms of entertainment. Yet,
from what we can see, 10s of 1000s of people attend the concert of of
Mariah Carey and Nicki Minh Hajj and the rest of these Western
artists. So there is a currency. There is an acceptance on the
Saudi Street for these really vile forms of entertainment. I think
that there is a welcoming amongst the Saudi population, a young
population, of a young population, I wouldn't say majority of them,
primarily because if you imagine a concert takes 10,000 people, where
a population of 40 million in Saudi Arabia. The second point
that's worth noting is that, well, I think what young people are
welcoming more than anything else is the absence for the first time
of their life, of very gruff men in long bids speaking to them in
very derogatory ways, telling them it takla move out of the way or
move out of the road or go dress appropriately. I think that one of
the criticisms that many had in Saudi Arabia, especially of the
religious police, was that when the Prophet Muhammad, sallAllahu,
Sallam is encouraging you to use kind words, even when it comes to
advice, or when Allah, Subhanahu wa Allah says, you know,
Alhamdulillah, temp nice word is like a tall tree. I think that
when a lot of the Saudi youth have lived their lives seeing everybody
in a beard, very gruff, very angry, looking at you and telling
you that you are a vile individual because you're doing so and so not
in an appropriate manner. I think what Saudis are celebrating is
that Vincent man is removing this. At last, Vincent man is removing
this from my life now. And this is what I mean in that it's very
difficult sometimes to talk to a pro bin Salman Saudi and say to
them that their past was better than their present. It's not to
suggest that the present is any better, but rather to understand
that so many of the Saudi youth, and this is very painful to say in
a podcast, and it risks a backlash, but the point here being
is that there are many Saudis who lived in conditions that you
yourself or anybody listening would not have accepted to live in
so.
The third point that's worth making is this, is that the Saudi
youth are exploring something that is new, and something that is new
often has that mysticism that is in place. But the reason I
mentioned the video of the woman who's surrounded by the men and
suddenly panics is because when the reality starts dawning, we're
now seeing videos of Saudis coming out saying this isn't what I
expected it to be. We are ruining the education of our Saudi youth.
Shir Emma dambayd, for example, who was the Khatib of the King
AbdulAziz, moskinde mem in the east and one of the big cities in
the East. He did a video in which he said, too many video on Twitter
in which he said, I call on the Crown Prince and Turkey elishik,
the right hand man, the head of the general entertainment
authority. It tak Allah Fischer, Babina, fear Allah, in what you're
teaching our generation now, a future generation, and what
happened to him. And he finishes off with May Allah bless the
rulers of this nation. One day later, he receives another
Twitter, he puts out another video, and he says that what my
first words were misunderstood, and I apologize, because he
realized that he's suddenly in trouble. And then he tweets, and
he says that he fled the country. The point here being is there are
voices out there that are very worried about what this is doing
to the generation. The fourth point that I would say in this, on
this, and this is the final point, I will say, there is often an
assumption that when you see videos of 1000s of Saudis at some
of these concerts, that this reflects that the youth are on
board with Mohammed bin Salman. Yet when you look at the Arab
Spring in a country such as Tunisia, which is where my father
is from, Tunisia, for 90 years, or for 60 years, 70 years would do
the math, from 1956
to now they had secularization top down. Burgeba forced it to the
extent that burgeba, during Ramadan, sat on national
television, drank a cup of orange juice, and said, our economy
cannot handle Ramadan right now, so break your fast and go and work
so that the economy can be improved. Burgeba, who really went
and swept up on the religious influences in Saudi Arabia. Then
bin Ali came the similar thing we used to say the walls have ears.
When the first free and fair elections came, and NAVA came
first, Islamist party, and in third place came Ali, the Shabir,
also an Islamist party. Together, they made the majority in the
parliament. They didn't choose to ally. In the end, another went a
different trajectory and chose to ally with the chose to ally with
the secularists. But the point is, they made the majority. In other
words, despite all the videos that we saw of Tunisians on the
beaches, despite the bikini beaches, their alcohol, despite
the parties that we saw of Tunisia, when the first free
elections came, the Tunisian population went towards Islam, and
anybody who waved the flag of Islam. And that's why I'm very
wary in terms of how we measure popularity of these measures in
Saudi Arabia. You cannot do it empirically, because if you ask
Saudi What do you think of Bin Salman, he will think you've come
from Bin Salman, and a black jeep is going to roll into his house
the next day and carry him away and disappear. And Amnesty
International will not ask about him if he has a beard, and if he
doesn't have a beard, they will ask about him, but they won't do
enough in order to release him, because bin Salman now is a
valuable ally that we need to reconcile with as well. So I'd be
wary in terms of saying that the youth are celebrating it. I think
there are lots of people, perhaps, who are going to these parties and
the raves and the like, but I think there are more people in
Saudi who are very worried, very uncomfortable what is taking
place. And the proof is that bin Salman believes that to implement
them, he needs to imprison people. To implement them, he must crack
down on the population, which suggests that Vincent man himself
knows that if he implements these measures without silencing his
population, there will be a backlash. If he implements these
measures without instilling fear in the population, there will be a
backlash. So while some people are trying to insist there is a
prominent Saudi analyst, we won't need to mention his name, but he
quoted, he gave a quote once to the Los Angeles Times, in which he
said, the Saudis are voting with their feet, suggesting they're
going to these raves and their parties. If that was the case,
that the prisons would not be full. And I think that is one of
the greatest indications to suggest that the Saudis are not
entirely on board with it, and that what bin Salman is building
is this very awkward social contract dance till the depths of
the night. But don't ask me a single question about my policy.
In other words,
when Allah says He created man with human dignity, set that
aside. You're not you don't have the rights of a citizen. Just go
and party and party and leave me to do what I want in this country.
And I don't think Saudis are happy with that social contract. But how
much of this is to placate the west, to placate America, to make
Saudi Arabia seem to be Americans, to be a country that has moved
beyond its former self and is now modernizing economically but also
socially. How much, how much does foreign intervention or foreign
foreign control have anything to do with these moves of
liberalization? I know anecdotes are bad for but I hope whoever's
listening will forgive me for using it in this context. In 2018
I was invited to a closed door conference on maritime security in
the Gulf. It was 18 of us experts from the European Union, experts
from the US, experts from some of the Gulf countries. In the meeting
at that time was one of the most senior American generals of the
American army that's based in the Gulf. Chatham House Rules means
you're not allowed to say who said what during that conversation, the
topic of Vincent man's reforms came up and.
General told us a very interesting story. He said that he went with
Mark Esper, the Secretary of Defense during Donald Trump's time
in 2019 they went to Riyadh to meet with Mohammed bin Salman, and
they were there to discuss issues related to oil and related to
partnership. And he tells the story, and I don't think he
necessarily read the room. I think because most of the room, it
didn't look like there were any religious people in the room. It
didn't look like, you know, there was a general view that perhaps
this is not an environment where, you know there are any religious
sympathies, that we're all on the same page here, people might say,
what were you doing there? Sammy, I was invited by a good friend who
recommended me. So I went. But anyway, the general told the
story. He said we were standing with Mohammed bin Salman with Mark
Esper, excuse the American accent, and the Crown Prince said
something that floored us, and everybody in the room went, what
did he say with this? He said, Muhammad bin Salman said to us,
Look,
we all know what Saudi Arabia is like. We all know that we have
these extreme ideologies here in Saudi Arabia. I need your support,
and I need 25 to 30 years in order to remove these influences from
Saudi Arabia. I need your help, your assistance with this. I need
you to send your experts to help me with
it. Me hearing it. I'm thinking, Okay, I'm sure other princes have
said that before. And the general then says, As if he's read my
mind. He says, no Saudi prince in power, no king or Crown Prince has
ever said this to us before. No crown prince or king has ever said
to an American official, we need to reign in Islam. In Saudi
Arabia, no one has ever said this to American official before. And
we went back to Washington stunned that, at last, we have a prince
who's now talking in these terms. So the point here being is that I
don't think the Americans have husbands and men to do this. I
don't think the Americans even dreamed that the Saudi prince
would come, who would do this either, which suggests that Vince
and man is not doing it, necessarily to placate the West.
But I think also because he believes in it, that he believes
this is the way Saudi should move forward, that it should open up.
Why shouldn't we have the Red Sea Film Festival where women come in
elegant dresses, like they do in the Oscars, and we should
celebrate them. Why can't we celebrate Eid in the way? Anybody
who opens Twitter and goes to the general entertainment authority,
you can find the post, they're hosting something called Eid party
2023 go and look at the lineup. It's women with their hair elegant
going down. It's men doing rock concerts. It's which somebody
might think. What's the problem with that? All I'm saying is, is
that the way that you spend aid in Saudi Arabia, but you look at the
pictures, look at the design of what Vincent man is pushing. I no
longer sure that the Americans are the ones who ask this. This is
something Vincent man himself wants to implement. And one thing
that's quite fascinating, and I remind people, in order to put
this into context, if you read the New York Times article The Dark
Prince of the UAE about Muhammad bin Zayed. Notice that their
coverage of the conversations between Gulf officials and
American officials is not the American officials telling the
Gulf issues Wallahi. They don't say Allah. They say, We know we
want you to do so. And so it's bin Zayed warning them that if you
decide to recognize the democratic election, suggesting bin Zayed was
scared that they would if you recognize the democratic elections
that deliver the Islamist to power. These Arabs, they don't
know how to vote. Bin zay Isaiah says, according to The New York
Times article, that if a man stood up in Mecca today and said, I am
the Mahdi, I am going to deliver Islam bin Zayed said 80% of my
army would go and join this man in Mecca. The point here being is
that it appears bin Zayed is the one trying to convince the
Americans that they should be firmer in this position, as
opposed to the Americans demanding it as a condition for the security
of them. And the reason why I say that is so that we're aware of
what this situation is before us when Vincent man bans the
broadcast of taraweeh prayers in Saudi Arabia. The Americans have
not asked that from him. When bin Salman bans loudspeakers for the
Quranic recitation and orders the reduction of the volume to a third
of its volume, and when a village chief goes to the local
authorities and says, We are the only mosque in this village, are
you saying this rule applies to us? They say it applies to you as
well. The Americans have not said anything about loudspeakers when
bin Salman is imprisoning ablaze and Salman al order Trump has
never heard of Salman al order. So the point here being this is not
the American saying, Please do this for us. This has been Salman
saying, I will do it for you. So back me, and I need your backing
with this. And one of the things the general said was quite
fascinating is he said, we're going to be announcing three
universities opening in Saudi Arabia in order to facilitate the
education of this next Saudi generation that is coming up. So
the point here being is this,
the it may well be that part of the inclination is to win over the
West by these reforms, but I think that underplays this liberal elite
that exists in the Middle East, who have supported the coups in
Egypt, who supported the coups in Libya, who supported the coup in
Tunisia, and are still supporting a liberal elite that fails to win
over the majority, that still leans towards Islam, who insist on
using their power to impose ideas as a.
Opposed to coaxing the people into these ideas. I think Vincent man
won his vision 2030 it's from his own belief first before it's about
winning over the West. You've mentioned vision 2030 a few times
there. Can you outline what this vision is? Vision 2030 has two
strands. The first strand is that the economy can no longer rely on
oil. We need to badly diversify. We need to have Saudi. Perhaps, to
best highlight this example, is not to give an anecdote on Saudi,
but to give an anecdote on Algeria. There was once an
ambassador in a particular country, we won't say which in
which, you know, sitting in a room with some experts, and they said
to the ambassador, look, we have so much money now from the
hydrocarbons, from the gas. You know, why don't we invest in
tourism and build a tourism infrastructure? They can go to
Santana to tell him, San Toran to and the ambassador replied, What
do we do with tourism? We have gas that's enough for us. Vincent man
wants to shift this mentality. We need tourism. We need technology.
We need startups. We need funding to come into Saudi Arabia. We
need, we need to be producing different things now. We can't
just be an oil base, which is perfectly rational, and this is
why I started with that politics is a science of human relations,
that it's a reaction. Vincent man was came to power in a fire, and
he's navigating that. He knows that he came to power when oil
prices were low, where suddenly the coffers were burning through
the reserves in the space of two, three years, 1/5 of the reserves,
1/6 was suddenly depleted. Bin Salman is like we need to urgently
diversify the economy. And we need to vision 2030 is about that that
by vision 20, that by 2030 the economy will no longer be majority
reliant on oil. This makes perfect sense. The second strand of vision
2030 however, is the cultural and social reforms that to enable the
economic innovation, we need to remove the chains of the religious
thought. But how do they explain that? Because there doesn't seem
to be a connection between diversifying your economy and
religious thought. I mean, what is the connection he makes? Vincent
man makes the connection that in Saudi Arabia, the celebrities are
not Elon Musk or the like. The celebrities are Sheik ayed al
gharni. They are Sheik Salman
in sudeiz. They are Shaykh Saul AYM. They are if you count the top
50 celebrities in Saudi Arabia, you would probably only have
Muhammad Abdul and one other singer in the top 50. The rest are
all mashey Bin Salman in 2021, or 2020, I might have the year wrong,
but you can find it online. On Google. People can search it. The
statement is still in Arabic, and if you can't find it in the
statement in Arabic, you can go to Twitter. There is, I can't
remember the handle, but it's Akbar government affiliated
account. Bin Salman announced that the hours that the children spend
on Quran and Islamic studies in schools is to be significantly
reduced, and in its place, we will introduce subjects of critical
thinking. I know it's ironic, given that anybody who speaks on
Twitter is put in prison, but the point here being is that the
direct the correlation Vincent man makes is clear too much religion
is hampering critical thinking. With regards to development of the
economy. Reduce the religion and and I think part of that is that
when you ask the West to explain their enlightenment, to explain
how they became the superpower that they are, they will always
bring it back to their bitter war with the church, that when they
defeated the church, when they removed its influence, we had free
thinking, and we became a dominant economy. Vincent man is importing
a history that is alien from the region, because, as Ibn Khaldun
said, that the conquered always wants to follow the Conqueror way
that the dominant powers. Vincent man wants to be like the US in
terms of its power and prosperity. So I should follow something very
similar to them. So vision 2013 the cultural, social reforms. It's
about liberating the Saudi population. Waiadblam going to say
this sentence only because it's what bin Salman believes are not
what I believe. We are going to liberate the Saudi population
against the khalilahdim from the chains of religion so that they
can freely think or critically think in terms of economic
production, so we can achieve Vision 2030, right? But the
Europeans, when they remove the shackles of religion, they not
only distance themselves from the church, but they also reform the
church, and they change the church and they change religion. Is there
a dimension of this strategy to to change Islam and to make Islam
especially you know the, as we said, the austere understanding of
Islam, to turn Islam into something which is completely
different.
This is a very difficult subject to talk about. We'll start we'll
give three examples. Let's start with the first one, Shay Salah Al
muhamshi was the Imam of mashed Koba, mesh Kobe, for those who
don't know, first mosque built in Islam when the Prophet Muhammad
arrived in Medina. Masjid quber is where for those who listen to
Muhammad, Ayub Alayah, the famous reciter who was the Imam of
Medina. He was discovered in mashup Koba, Imam Al hudayfi, who
our older generation still listen to because they love his
recitation. Imam Al hudayfi was also discovered in Masjid. Kuba
Shel Muhammad put a tweet out in which he described and said, in
during Corona, we need to, we would.
Mentioned the example beforehand, but the idea that to pardon
people, he was removed from mashup Kobe and disappeared for a while.
He's reappeared recently and did a podcast that was released during
Ramadan,
the Twitter, or the tweets that the hook for you to listen to. The
podcast, Muhammad argues that Muslims exaggerate in the traits
of Omar ibn Abd Al Aziz Alavi Allah, I know the one who's
considered as the fifth of the Rightly Guided caliphs. He says we
attribute people. Can find the tweet, it's still up, and if you
can't find it as a screenshot of my Twitter, but the shim Ramsay
says we attribute grand gestures of generosity that were not in
him, and we attribute bravery and courage that were not in him. So
why do we Muslims exaggerate with these things, which evoked a
response saying, What is this Madhab that Sheik Salam is coming
in? That's the first example in terms of reforming how we view the
deen very gently, okay, but you know, that sounds like a very, I
don't know. It doesn't sound like a very central Islamic argument.
You know, to make it's a historical figure. And, you know,
he cast doubt on a historical figure. I mean, why? Why would you
do that? Let's start with that as an example. Because that the
answer to that is seen in the context of what's happening. The
second point, Muhammad bin Salman announces a series of measures
where he says that loudspeakers must be reduced to 33% of the
volume for the call to prayer, and they are banned for Quran and
khutbah.
Some people might think, okay, loudspeakers might be annoying.
How many revert stories have you heard of people walking down the
street in a Muslim country hearing the Quran on the loudspeaker and
saying that? It moved me to the extent that I entered the mosque
and then they became Muslim. That's the first thing. Second
point is, why would you reduce the loudspeaker of the volume when
you're amplifying the volume of the giant raves and the
nightclubs? Second the third point when the when the people could not
hear the khutbah on the Friday prayer. The first week after rule
was implemented, they said, We can't even hear the khutbah
anymore. So they allowed it for the khutbah at a reduced volumes,
but still not for the Quranic recitation. So we take that second
measure, along with Sahil Muhammad, talking about Umrah
blablaziz. Then we talk about last year, where Bin Salman announced
unusual rules for Ramadan, aside from the ones this year, which
we'll get to in which one of them says, according to Arabic, that
the broadcast of prayers may not be broadcast Allah Morocco, and
why? It cannot be broadcast on media, bishata and waiha in any
form
media being what TV it left it like that in any media, bishata,
and why so any form of media there. And this was published on
the ministry of the Islamic affairs website. So officially,
all of the Arab elites understood it as it includes Mecca and
Medina. And why are we suddenly banning the broadcast of prayers?
So suddenly, for 48 hours, there is no clarification if Mecca and
Medina will be creative and anger is new. Lines magazine now is
spreading the English word English, world, Middle East. I now
and I reporting it suddenly, is this going to include Mecca
Medina? 48 hours later, the Haramein comes out and says it
will not include us. It took 48 hours of a huge backlash,
suggesting as if bin Salman was waiting to see what the reaction
was. Why would you ban the broadcast of prayers of the
mosques during taraweh. If you thought it was haram for the
mosques, why allow it for Medina? If you thought that, for example,
that the Imams can't be trusted, or the lies you allowed it before,
why is saddee banning it now? What is it you're afraid of the Imams
that they might say? Moreover, there are many people who don't
just watch Medina. They watch mashal Koba, Imam Abdul Rahman is
today's was discovered. Uh, Khalid Dorset was discovered in another
city. He was discovered by the videos during taraweeh. Why would
you ban this in terms of the broadcast of the prayers? And then
when you look at the Ramadan rules for this year, in which many
people said that I read them, and it looks fine the Ramadan rules
for this year, it said, keep the prayer short, in line with the
Sunnah bin Salman, who brings a giant raves in Mariah Carey etc,
is concerned about the Sunnah with regards to Ramadan, how you pray
QUT? Keep it short. People read it and said, Okay, people take too
long in dua. The meaning of the QUT. The reason why it was was
because, if you notice, in hajj, we had a new Imam given the
khutbah, Muhammad Al Isa, the head of the Muslim world league. And if
you listen to the khutbah, you would think it's not directed at
Muslims. It's directed to Tel Aviv and Washington. It's all about
Muslims. Beware those who come to you claiming to be part of the
religion, and they encourage you to do other things instead, ie,
Muslim Brotherhood. Beware Muslims of extremist thoughts that lead us
not to pursue peace. Peace with who? Peace with Tel Aviv. Beware,
O Muslims, of people who come to you and tell you that we shouldn't
be part of this world, talking about Donald Trump, talking about
Washington and the like. In other words, the interference now, in
terms of what should be conveyed, should be delivered, which and now
dua should basically, the issue of the QUT was, don't include current
affairs in your DUA anymore.
Then comes the next rule number five, all literature in the mosque
should be sanctioned by the government, which, when you read
it so far, you think Sunna, you think government is legitimate.
But what does he mean? Sanctioned by the government? Imam Bay, who
we mentioned earlier, said, Allah in the education of our children,
and he's a Khatib on the member on the pulpit. And Imam bail later
said when he left that the duty of the Imam on the pulpit is to
ordain what is good and forbid what is evil.
What it meant was that criticism of the general entertainment
authority should not be entertained in the mosques. When
Imam bayev, who criticized the general entertainment authority
when he was forced to flee Saudi Arabia because he didn't feel
safe, the Minister of Islamic affairs who signs off on which
books should be studied, was asked in an interview by Al iqbari at
one of the Saudi state channels, what do you think about certain
scholars who've been saying certain things? And the minister
replied, these are people who belong to a deviant sect. So the
idea of an imam saying that Turkey al shaykhs giant raves that the
bikini beach that they're trying to establish in Jeddah, that the
nightclubs that the criticism of this by an imam is that Imam is
the deviant for talking about that. Rule number five is, if you
don't want to be like Imam bayev, if you don't want to be like Sheik
Sal be removed from your post. You will abide by these rules. In
other words, rule number five, don't criticize the general
entertainment authority. Then we get to the charity. Don't give
donations to the mosque. Some of the Saudis responded and said,
yes, because we have official channels of Ihsan and the like. I
ask you, Muhammad, and I ask every Muslim listening, if you had the
choice to give your money to the Imam of the mosque or to Muhammad
bin Salman, who tried to bring Nicki Minaj to Saudi Arabia, where
would you prefer to give your money to? Then they talk about no
Iftar in the mosques. Every Muslim has an anecdote about an Iftar in
the mosque, about sitting opposite of somebody from another part of
the world, and how they exchange it. And then they roll up the
carpets and they throw Iftar away. No one ever complains about the
issue of cleanliness. It suddenly became an issue. All of a sudden.
Bin Salman says, No Iftar inside the mosque, and if they do Iftar
in the courtyard, no tents. I don't want families coming to join
these tents and make it a festive occasion. Behind these rules that
sound sane are more sinister intentions. When bin Salman
reduced the hours spent on Islamic education, he didn't say, because
I want to reduce Islam in the country. He said, I want to
promote critical thinking. He reduces the hours of Quran,
reduces the hours of Islamic Studies, reduces the sound of
loudspeakers, bans loudspeakers for Quran bans the broadcast of
prayers that we all watch on our tiktoks, on our Instagrams, or the
like, when we discover a new Imam that we like and they discover, he
bans all of that. Did he ban it for sunnah? Did he ban it because,
and that's the reason why in these rules, you see that the
Islamization being pushed. One of the rules was, do not bring your
kids to the mosque because they disturb the worshippers. So
Vincent man does a giant rave at the gates of Mecca in Jeddah,
people are doing Umrah less than one hour away. He brings pit bull
and whoever, and giant raves, etc. And he wants to tell you, I don't
want to disturb the worshippers. So the point here be and the thing
is this,
then the Soviet Union, how did they manage to squeeze the deen
out of many of their populations? They didn't do it necessarily by
just killing the Imams, but also by restricting access to the
mosque for the children Uzbekistan. The reason why in 2016
the new president lifted the ban on children and mosques is because
there is a growing, resurgent Muslim population that is saying,
we know this rule was designed to prevent Islam. Then people looked
at the etiquette rules. Etiquette, the Imam has to collect all the
information, all the details of the person doing ETF. People said,
Okay, you should know who's doing ETF in the mosque, but
coming from a Tunisian background, or even Algeria background,
under Ben Ali's rule and bourgeois rule, anybody doing etiquette had
to give all of their details to the government. At the end of
Ramadan, they had the details of all the overzealous Muslims who
were going out of their homes to spend 10 days to sit in a mosque
and get close to Allah. These people would then be harassed in
their jobs. Some of them kicked out of their jobs. They'd be her.
Their families would be harassed as well. They would be monitored
in terms of their access to the mosque, until the person would
say, and we have a famous story in Tunisia where a man asked Sheik
bin bazalah rahmu, yes, Sheik, in Tunisia, we are constantly
harassed, and we go to the mosque. * yeah. Jews, is it permissible
for me to keep a bottle of whiskey in my glove box so that when I'm
stopped, I can show him the bottle of whiskey so he doesn't think I'm
a threat, and therefore I will be able to access the mosque when
Vincent man finishes Ramadan this year, when he is finished,
Ramadan, we're going after Ramadan. Imagine the information
he has on the people going to the mosque. What do you think he's
capable of doing with that information? And that's why
Muslims, they read the rules, thinking, Yes, this sounds all
perfectly reasonable. I see sunnah, but in the Yeti, this has
nothing to do with the Sunnah, and this is why I think that when
we're looking at how bin Salman is implemented, going back to your
question, yes, but maybe Sheik al mamsi questioned Ahmad bin Abu
Aziz today, he questioned Ahmed ibn Aziz, a figure considered who
is revered by Muslims everywhere. His stories are told everywhere
that during his reign, they couldn't even find people to give
zakat to.
So if it's Omar bin Abdulaziz today, tomorrow, it will be Ahmad
Rafael, the day after, it will be Ahmed Al Khattab, and then it will
be Abu Bakr Al Sadiq. And then the minority will be the ones
defending those Sahaba bin Salman is doing it slowly, and the proof
so that people might think that maybe exaggerating. Think about it
this way, the fear of Muhammad bin Salman banning the broadcast of
praise and MEK Medina was so great amongst the Muslims that when the
exception was announced, we forgot that he now banned it in every
mosque outside of Maka Medina, suggesting that Islam or the sound
of the Quran on the loudspeakers, think about it, the sound of the
Quran on the streets of Saudi Arabia, overnight disappeared
except for mecha Medina, you could walk in real walk in Jeddah,
hearing there is recitation, hearing an area that might make
you go home and reconcile with your wife, hearing an area that
might make you go back and feel maybe you were harsh with your son
and you go speak to him differently, an area that might
make you feel like you know I've neglected my parents. I'm gonna go
and call my parents that now is silent in Saudi Arabia because we
were so scared he would ban in Mecca and Medina, we forgot it's
now banned in all the other mosques, as well as if bin Salman,
what he did in one night was he moved the sound of the Quran from
all of Saudi Arabia and limited it now to Mecca and Medina, as if
suddenly Islam is going to become like the Vatican within a one
kilometer radius. I ask every Muslim, is this what you would be
satisfied with with regards to what Vincent man is doing in Saudi
Arabia? And this is the point that I'm making, that Vincent man is
chipping away at it, chipping away at it in a way in which he's able
to justify it to you through the announcement. But when you strip
away the PR of the announcement, you see what's dark and sinister
underneath.
I think the reality is this,
what makes Islam such a potent threat to authoritarian regimes
and indeed to Western governments, is that Islam requires no
intercessor between a man and his Lord. It requires no intercessor
between you and Allah. Allah has ordered every human being to
enjoin what is good and forbid what is evil. You don't need an
intercessor to tell you that you should be enjoining good and
forbidding evil. In other words, that rebellion against oppression
and that which is wrong is something that every single human
being is capable of by virtue of what Allah has in Quran. That's
the terrifying thing about Islam, that there is no you don't have to
wait for a priest or the like, that, you can go to social media
and denounce what an authoritarian person is doing, and that Islam
evokes such resonance amongst the population that all it takes is
for a random individual to say it takla, and the whole population
will say it takla with him. That's what's terrifying about Islam, for
Muhammad bin Salman, or for the authoritarianism, that's why
there's a need to constrain it and constrain people who want to
associate with it publicly. And I think the other thing that's worth
noting is that when you think about it, the Ottoman Empire fell
in the 1920s then we had secularism in Turkey. Then when
they had their first free and fair elections, they vote Erdogan and
the AK Party. And now Turkey has transformed so much in 20 years
that kilij darulu, the opponent of Erdogan, is appealing to the
conservative elements, trying to quote ayat of the Quran and trying
to insist that he also believes in Allah, and swearing and promising
that he will not ban hijab again. That's how much, because he knows
now that the liberated Turkish society leans more towards Islam
in the Arab Spring, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Yemen, Syria, at the
forefront of the opposition, and the most the beneficiaries of the
Arab Spring were not the Muslim Brotherhood per se, but anybody
who raised the flag and said, I am going to implement la Illa Allah,
Muhammad Rasulullah. That's what the terrifying thing is with
regards to Muhammad bin Salman. And I think that, going back to
your question in terms of what's next, the question for Muhammad
bin Salman is, how do I contain this influence? I see Sudan today,
where despite the fact that Omar Bashir has fallen, I see the
Americans are still struggling to prevent the Sudanese from
insisting on their right to vote, and if they vote, they will
deliver the Islamists back to power. Ganoshi was only able to be
ousted by a coup. I'm not saying anushi represents Islam, but I'm
saying that to put it more clearer, I was in Egypt 2013
covering the elections before Morsi was elected. I went from
iskandaria in the north all the way down Luxor dominion, and
passed it.
I went to Suhag. There's a big agriculture it's a big
agricultural area. It's a city in agriculture area. And I speak into
local farmers, and I say to them into my hat. So we told me, and
who will you vote for? Morsi will vote for Morsi tablier, what is it
about his program, his political economic program, that pleases
you? Etc. The guy goes, Listen, I don't care about no political
economic program. And ize Wahidi, we want somebody who fears Allah.
And I said, but surely that can't be enough, like you need to look
at what he's going to offer you. Sami, if he fears Allah, Allah
will open the heavens for him. The idea being that affinity, and
that's why the liberals in the region supported the coups,
because they couldn't win elections. They went and they
plead and they couldn't win elections. That's what Muhammad
bin Salman is concerned about. What Muhammad bin Salman wants to
do, and it's clear in the way he implements his reforms. He wants
to his word his best.
Case scenario is to silence Quran in Saudi Arabia, keep Islam in the
personal sphere, in your homes or in your mosque.
If he can't achieve that, keep Islam in Mecca and Medina. Let
Muhammad Jalil go to Amra and whoever else go to Amara. Let them
take some nice social media pics next to the Kaaba and whatever.
And they'll be part maybe 5% of my economy, while I bring in all
these other guys to come in for the giant raves and the bikini
beaches and the like. That's but in the meantime, Muhammad bin
Salman is taking great care to ensure that, as he de islamizes,
Muslims are unaware of what's happening. I've had people who
say, I don't know. I would never know what bin Salman is doing if
it were not for some tweets that I read here and there,
that when they heard the Ramadan restrictions for this year, people
were stunned. They refused to believe it. Instead, they said,
You're the liar for talking about it. It's not my problem if you're
not following what bin Salman is doing, but it's dangerous what
he's doing people when they land in Jeddah airport. Now, if you
notice, it's all women at the passport checkout, which I have
nothing against, but what I'm asking is, this is the
emancipation of women, that they stand passports in the airport.
But the point is, Bin Salman is doing it to make a sign so that
when they land in Jeddah, Muslims, they see the airport is no longer
for them to welcome them, for Amra, the airport is now to
welcome non Muslims, to come to Saudi Arabia, because Saudi
Arabia, Bin Salman wants to make it open for non Muslims, not
necessarily for Muslims. That's why we've seen now Israelis much
more confident in announcing that they've been to Medina, that
they're planting trees, that I went to Mecca, that I went to the
holy mosque in Masjid nabowi, and I'm taking pictures, because the
environment is moving towards one in which I'm opening up. It's why
there was an announcement last year in 2022 about demolishing
parts of Mount Hood in order to build the most luxurious complex.
Why would you demolish mount pass that the Prophet Muhammad
Sallallahu, sallam said it loves us, and we love it, in other
words, that it was a big God. But the point here being that what bin
Salman is doing is this where he's going. Ya Muhammad Jalal, you want
to pray, do it in your home, or go do it in the mosque, but don't
talk about it on the street anymore. You want to go and hear
some Quran, put it up on YouTube or go inside the mosque, it will
no longer be heard on the streets. That's not my Saudi Arabia. That's
not my vision in terms of where I'm going forward. And I think
that the way that he's doing it is it will not be by convincing the
population, for people tried over a century to convince the
population to turn away from Islamic thought and from Islam
principle. It won't be through coaxing the population. It will be
through coercion and the raves and the like. And to finish on this
particular point, the raves and the other concerts and nightclubs
that he's implementing is merely a decoration of the prison that he
intends for the Saudi citizens. Is for the Saudis to say, Yes, I have
no civil rights. I have no civil participation. When bin Salman's
man comes to take my land and my house, and he demands it as part
of vision 2030 I have no rights to resist him. I should be kicked out
of my own but I can go and party tonight in Jeddah, but I can go
and go to the rave, and that's what's happening, I think, in
Saudi Arabia. And I think that where Bin Salman panics
is when the Muslim awareness suddenly wakes up to what he's
doing. And I think the greatest proof of that, and I know I've
gone on a bit on this point, but the reason why I want to emphasize
this is to give two examples. The first is the Kuala Lumpur summit
of 2019
Muhammad, Muhammad of Malaysia, invited Turkey, Qatar, Pakistan,
Indonesia, which combined for more than almost more than half of the
ummah of this world, more than 500 600 more than a billion, actually,
population. If you consider Indonesia and Pakistan. But he
invited all those to summit in Kuala Lumpur. The summit was
clear. We are going to challenge Saudi Arabia's leadership of the
Muslim world. We're not happy with what bin Salman is doing. Min
Salman panicked to the extent that he calls Imran Khan, and he said,
Who's Prime Minister at the time, and says to him, Allah Illa,
Allahu, if you go to the Kuala Lumpur summit, I will withdraw my
investments from Pakistan and the Pakistanis who live here sending
remittances. I'll kick them out and send them back to Pakistan.
Imran Khan pulls up. He calls Joko Widodo, the president of
Indonesia. Allah ilahilahu, if you go to Muharram, Muhammad, Kuala
Lumpur summit, I will withdraw the investments that you badly need to
build your new capital that you want to move from Jakarta, and I
will make sure that the Indonesians who work here as maids
and as servants, I'll kick them all out, and they won't be able to
send their mittens. Joko Widodo sends his apologies to Muhammad.
Muhammad. Muhammad, Muhammad panics decides to call Iran a very
controversial Muslim power that makes all the Muslims go. I'm not
sure mahava If this is the right way to go, and Vincent man
succeeds in quashing it. But the but the point here is this, Min
Salman panicked when the Ummah suddenly gathered to move the
center of power from Saudi Arabia to somewhere else. He acted
because he's aware that they can hurt him badly. The second example
when Imran Khan kept using the OIC over and over again, Kashmir
Palestine. Kashmir Palestine, un Islamophobia, the Emiratis and the
Saudis became very frustrated and annoyed, because bin Salman did
not want to be called upon with regards to Muslim duties at a time
in which he was flirting with normalization with Israel. UAE had
already normalized. So when Imran Khan was toppled by eventually in
Pakistan, one of the things that Saudi did was they received the
generals, some of the generals in.
Saudi Arabia in a clear sign to say we're happy with what is going
on. We have no problem. And the third example is that if every
video that goes viral that exposes Mohammed bin Salman's policies,
all the journalists associated with the Royal Court respond
immediately. All the Saudi trolls and Saudi bots respond
immediately. And the reason they do so is because they are scared
of something. They are scared that public opinion can be channeled
into something potent that threatens Muhammad bin Salman.
When I go back to the anecdote about the general who said that
Vincent man needs 2530 years, the reason he needs 2530 years is
because bin Salman is aware that if he pushes too hard on the de
Islamization front, it will provoke a reaction from the Ummah
that might even unseat him from power. And that's why bin Salman
goes gradually with the Ramadan rules that make a shirk in America
say, this is Sunnah, even though the implementation of the rules is
counter to everything to do with sunnah. But as long as I have
people who say, as one shirk once put it in because we sent me,
look, I want to go Amar. I don't want to get involved in in these
things. I want to get involved in Ramana. And I want to, I don't
want to be banned from Saudi Arabia or the like. But the point
here being is this, the only thing that can prevent bin Salman is
increasing awareness amongst the Muslim population of what is
happening, because bin Salman still believes that Muslims have
power to reverse what he's doing. Let's move to geopolitics, to
regional politics. In recent weeks, in recent months, there's
been a rapprochement between the Saudi Arabia, Saudis and Iran,
there was a secret meeting, culminating in a public agreement
brokered by China in Beijing. Now the two countries have engaged in
for the best part of a decade. Even beyond that, have been
engaged in a multi dimensional regional conflict, the Yemen war
being just one part of this proxy battle, but Syria, Iraq, Bahrain,
Lebanon, are all part of this regional rivalry. What lay behind
the march 10 agreement between the two countries? I think that in
order to understand that Saudi Iran, it's important to put the
agreement or the or the or the truce, as I call it, I don't call
it garage, the truce, into context. The reason Saudi Arabia
and Iran are at odds with each other is because when anybody in
Riyadh sits and opens up a map of the geopolit politics of the
region, he sees to his north there is the Hashd, the shabby that has
been incorporated into the Iraqi army, which is Shia Iran backed
militias that have fired rockets in the past, including towards the
royal palace in Riyadh that's on your northern border. To your
eastern border, you have Iran. You have the Qataris who have good
ties with Iran. You have the UAE, which has good ties with Iran. And
Iran has threatened on numerous occasions to close the Hormuz
Strait, from which 33% of the oil ships go past to your south. You
have the Houthis who are firing missiles at you, including at your
oil facilities, and also overjet that when Formula One was being
held at the time in which the international cameras were on
Saudi Arabia, as Saudis believe, legitimately put bin Salman out
the picture for a second, legitimately that there is a
pincer forming on Saudi Arabia, which has been compounded by a
video that went viral Abu Mahdi and muhandis, the man who was
killed alongside Qassem Soleimani In the drone strike in Baghdad
that Trump killed Qasem Soleimani, the legendary, legendary, I don't
use it in a positive way, but the notorious commander of the Iranian
Revolutionary Guards who was behind the demographic changes in
Syria to move Sunni populations out and replace them with Shia
populations as part of ceasefire deals. Abu Madin Mohandas, there
is a video that leaked where he's talking to Iranian students in
Persian where they tell him, yeah, Abu mahdin, muhandis, you are a
hero. We will soon be in Palestine. And he says, no, no,
not Palestine. Riyadh. Riyadh, Israel is not the enemy. Riyadh,
Riad, so Saudi Arabia legitimately believe that Iran is a major
threat, and Iran has intentions to go towards Saudi Arabia. The
reason that context is important is because it shows you why this
is a truce and not a rapprochement. Iran, as part of
this deal, is not withdrawing from Iraq. It's not withdrawing from
the eastern side. It's not withdraw the Houthis are not
withdrawing from Yemen, and they're not going to be reigned in
in Yemen either. Bashar Al Assad, Iran's ally, is going to be
normalized and rehabilitated back into the Arab League, despite the
destruction and mass killings that he's done in Syria. As far as
geopolitics goes, Iran is now on the verge of being able to
entrench all of its allies in this region, which then begs the
question, why on earth would Saudi Arabia agree to such a truce that
entrenches powers that are clearly inclined towards targeting Saudi
Arabia and the reason is, Vincent man is frustrated and he's tired,
and he's actually struggling. Vincent man, if let's put it into
context, Vincent man comes to power in 2017 as Crown Prince of
Saudi Arabia. 2018 he goes to America. He meets Mark Zuckerberg,
openstroke we talked about earlier in the same year. However,
Khashoggi is brutally murdered in Istanbul embassy, yes, and
suddenly bin Salman becomes a pariah. I remember, in my work as
a consultant for companies, I remember that there were many who
said, Listen, we couldn't care less about the human rights
abuses, but Khashoggi now makes it impossible for us to go and do
business with Vincent man, and we are waiting for when this cloud
will lift so that we can take advantage of the opportunities of
vision 25
30. But the point here being is that even those who were excited
by vision 2030 felt they couldn't go to Saudi because of Khashoggi.
It was reputation wise. It was unfeasible. Yes. Then covid comes
along. Nobody's investing economic downturn and whatever, they can't
seem to get through whatever. Then covid lifts. The Houthis start
hitting the oil facilities, and it start hitting over Formula One. So
people are now scared about the security of Saudi Arabia, where
2023 six years Vincent man has been in power vision 2030 has not
gathered any of the investment that that it promised in 2018
Vincent man's frustration was made clear when last year he imposed
tariffs on goods coming in from the UAE, because Vincent man said
that companies who are trying to set up in the UAE in order to do
business in Saudi Arabia. So they set up in the UAE, where they
prefer life. They cross the border, which is easy to cross,
and they do business in Saudi Arabia. Vincent Mann said, From
now on, any goods that come from the UAE put tariffs. The order
said, from GCC countries. But everybody knew that it meant it
was regards with the UAE. Second anybody listening to this, open up
social media and search Saudi UAE border traffic. You will see that
twice now last year and this year, Vincent Mann has randomly ordered
spot checks on the border, resulting in long queues of trucks
that have been lingering there for days. Vincent man essentially
saying, Okay, you want to UAE, you want to stay in UAE and come to
business. I'll show you why. I'm going to make it impossible. For
you to do business for UAE. I'm just going to randomly make your
life difficult. The third point bind announced that anybody who
does not have his headquarters in Riyadh will be forbidden from
bidding from government contracts from 2024 in other words, you
better come here now in other and this evoked a reaction from a
number of American journals which published and said, quite simply,
we don't like life in Saudi Arabia, which is why we don't want
to come. We want to see alcohol. We want to see other things. We
want to see more opening up, as they call before we come. And
that's why there are suggestions that perhaps Saudi Arabia will do
what Qatar did, which is allow alcohol in certain areas as part
of this opening up, part of this excuse to open up. But the point
here being is that Vincent man is saying, okay, look, Yemen, I'm
clearly not going to win, because in Yemen, I don't want the Houthis
to win, but I don't want this government to be reinstated,
because the Muslim Brotherhood are too strong in it. So he got caught
in this no man's land of catch 22 where neither was he able to
defeat the Houthis and neither was he able to reform the government
to prevent the Muslim Brotherhood from having power. So I may as
well make peace with the Houthis and keep them there and give them
money to keep them quiet. The Iran says, Okay, this is opportunity.
The Houthis have got as much as they can militarily. Let me use
this truce to entrench the Houthis. Why not in Iraq, the
Iran, Muqtada Sadr, one of his allies, the of the Shia allies.
Muqtada Sadr, for those who want context, Mukta Al Sadr is the is
the disgruntled ally of Iran who's always forced by Iran to back
somebody he doesn't like. So in Iraq, for example, they'll go into
elections. He'll argue with his partners in Iraq, and Iran will
come in and say, Look, I don't want you to argue. I want you to
go lend your support and form a government with him. And would do
it because he has allegiances or has allies with Iran. Sudden comes
first in the elections in Iran, in the last elections, so suddenly,
he says to the Iranians, it's my turn. Now, can you tell the people
that you made me back, that they should back me? And Iran says, No,
we don't want you to be part of the government. We want this
person, and we'd like to kindly ask you to go and support that
person. Mukta decided, tries to revolt, tries to ally with the
Sunnis and the curse to form a gun, whatever. And the Iranians
eventually managed to maneuver and kick him. Kick him out of the
parliament. And Sadr says, Okay, I'm retiring, and I'm going to go
and resign. But the point here being is that Iran says, let me do
this truth to Saudi Arabia, because Saudi has been trying to
win over Muqtada Al Sadr and I can take my time to reconcile between
these different factions or the like. So the point here being, is
that for for Saudi Arabia, Saudi Arabia says, look, if I can get
the Houthis quiet, who I can't be, if I can get the Iraqi militias to
be quiet, if I can get Iran to stop getting these militias to
throw missiles at me, I can spend some time to focus on getting this
money that I need to build the line to build Neom to build
Boulevard you walk. It's literally called Boulevard you walk to
build, you know, all these different policies. I need the
money otherwise, because I'm still stuck with oil. I'm having to cut
production to keep oil prices high. I'm not diversifying the
economy like I should, which I need to desperately do. Biden is
antagonistic and releasing supplies of his own oil, which is
affecting the price here and there, forcing me to cut more oil
instead. So I need now time to get money. And Iran says to itself,
look,
the Muslim world is going to see that bin Salman is doing giant
raves and moving away from Islam. So all that Saudi soft power that
made people sympathize with Saudi is going to disappear. Let him
destroy himself. Let's let him do vision 2030, until the Muslims
turn on Saudi Arabia, and we'll take our time to entrench so that
we're ready to take advantage of it and eventually go towards Mecca
ourselves and maybe perhaps even take so that's why I think for
Saudi Arabia, it's the truce in that. Bin Salman doesn't believe
Iran will withdraw. He believes that the next five, six years,
they'll go back to clashing once more. But Vincent man says, I have
urgent priorities. I need my giant raves to succeed. I need my vision
2030 I need to build the line, and I need the money now. And that's
why they.
Agree to it. The last point I want to make is this, you said China
brokered the agreement. Yes, what I will say is this, China came at
the last leg. Iran and Saudi were already talking for two years via
Qatar, Iraq and Oman when the Chinese came,
there is a sense that rather than China brokering the agreement, it
feels as if Saudi and the Iranians did a favor that costs nothing,
let's say China broke it. We were already on the Virgin agreement.
Let's say China brokered it so that we can win China, and we can
keep them on board as we try to squeeze the Americans or the like.
And it worked, and that's why I think the Americans, when you look
at their statements, they're not particularly worried that China
broke it, because they don't believe China broke it. And I
think a lot of people are excited, and which puzzles me sometimes, to
use the word excited, because sometimes I feel, as Muslims, you
know, we dislike American foreign policy, so it's like we cheer
Russia and China, whereas China has made absolutely clear what it
thinks of Muslims with Uyghur, and Russia has made absolutely clear
what it thinks of Muslims in his bombardment of Syria and Libya. So
I'm not sure why suddenly Muslims believe that we it should be
either or. But the point here being is that with China, the
Americans believe that China broken it that bin Salman is just
upset, and that, you know, this isn't something serious that might
extend, but to conclude, yeah, it's the truce, not a
rapprochement, and it's a truce in which Saudi is conceding, as
opposed to Iran. Can I explore the relationship, then, the current
relationship, between Saudi Arabia and the Americans? So for a long
time, and I said in my introduction, there is this
perception that the Saudis are the reliable allies of the Americans
in the region.
And for, as I said, for many years, you know, it's, you could
put a thin line between Saudi policy, Visa V oil, vis a vis
its machinations in the region, vis V Iran and and the Americans.
It's very clear that these two countries see eye to eye on a lot
of issues. Barack Obama said it's complicated, and that was a, you
know, a term that implied that the Americans need Saudi Arabia as an
ally in the region. Has that weakened in recent years? Of
course, you're right about the Beijing agreement, and a lot of it
was about symbolism. But is there a perception, if not, a real
movement, away from the Americans, a lot of analysts have been
talking about strategic autonomy, but Mohammed bin Salman is has
recognized that to put all of your your your apples in one basket is
a is probably not a favorable place to be for the Saudis. How do
you analyze that relationship? I think that a lot of Muslims talk
about a Saudi us relationship in very simplistic terms, that Saudi
is the stooge of Saudi of America, and Saudi follows what America
says or the like. But I think that when you talk to American
officials in particular, they will never describe it in these terms,
not out of respect for Saudi Arabia, but because they've never
believed this was a relationship at all. They will talk about
difficulties with every Saudi King, with King Faisal, who relied
on the Americans to push back against communism that was being
supported by Abdel Nasser in Egypt, the socialist government
was going to be formed in Yemen, the Russians were backing it, and
the Saudis believed Islamically that communism was haram Sharan
and it shouldn't be supported. And therefore their natural ally was
the Americans over the Russians. There was a common agreement there
in Afghanistan, for example, the Saudis and Americans worked
together primarily because they were also against the Russians,
and the Saudis were against the Russians, not because the
Americans were against them, but because the Saudis believed that,
through Abdel Nasser, through Egypt, and then through Sadat for
a short while, and through Yemen, the Russians were becoming a
dangerous threat. And therefore, you know, the enemy of my enemy is
my friend. In other words, it's not that the Saudis suddenly said
to the Americans, Wallahi, we're prepared to be your stooge, but
rather, the Saudis identified a common enemy, and the Americans
were very willing to help, even in the time of King Fahd. People
often talk about that the Saudis, or the likes, helped the Americans
with regards to Iraq, forgetting that Saddam Hussein, when he
invaded Kuwait, essentially troubled all of the Gulf states.
They all looked at one another and said, Hang on a second. An Arab
brother has invaded. An Arab brother, Saddam has made clear
that he has disdain for us. Saddam might come invade us tomorrow, and
Hama bin Jassim in a recent interview the BBC, he says quite
bluntly that when he met Saddam, he said, Saddam said to him, why
do you guys despise me and Saddam's. And Hamad bin Jassim,
the Qatari Prime Minister, says to Saddam system, you invaded Kuwait,
and you invaded it with no regard for brother, Brotherhood or
anything. And you the point here being it's not entirely about
we're chasing the Americans, but rather rare politics of the
region. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant. I always say
sometimes that everyone is a genius on the bench when you're
sitting and you're sitting and you're not involved in the
politics, it's easy to say he should have done this. He should
have done that. I'm not saying that what they did is right
either. What I'm saying is it's not as straightforward as being
the American stooge. And the other example is 2001
where just before 911 King Abdullah is canceling bilateral
agreements with the Americans, threatening to cut.
Ties, withdrawing Ambassador because the George Bush has made a
speech blaming the Palestinians for the Israeli attack on
Palestine. In other words, and the Americans, if you read the
accounts, you can also read The Washington Post, they genuinely
believe this is going to be the thing that kills the Saudi us
relationship, suggesting King Abdullah believed he had enough
autonomy to push back against the Americans. Point here being a
shared interest, going back to your point in terms of Vincent
man, whether he's moving away from the Americans, if we look at it in
the context of this historical relationship, ups and downs, this
is one of the downs, right? I think that when it comes to
Mohammed bin Salman, his ideal situation is that the Americans
come to him and say to him, We're sorry for what we did, and we are
coming now to rescue vision 2030, and if that happens, Vincent man
will tell them, hello, marhaba, Alhamdulillah for Allah. Forgives.
What has what has been passed, and we are going to be good friends.
Yeah, China has always been a plan B. I think that when it comes to
Vincent man's relationship with Saudi Arabia, what hurts him the
most and hurts implies he's a victim. I'm not saying he's a
victim, but what hurts him the most is that America, which is
happy to deal with dictatorships, with authoritarians, which invades
Iraq illegally, which invades Afghanistan illegally, which has
rendition programs, which does coups in Africa and other
continents, which is ready to conduct human rights abuses,
suddenly became self righteous when it came to him and Khashoggi
Vincent man believes he's been treated very unfairly, that you're
treating me the way you didn't treat anybody else again, not a
victim, saying, in the context, within the framework. So Vincent
man's relationship with America is, Listen, if they're going to
treat me this way, if Biden wants to use me to score points, Halas
Saudi has always had some autonomy, and I'm going to wield
it the same way King Faisal did once, although there's no
comparison between him and King Faisal, I'm going to wield it the
way King Abdullah did, and I'm going to wield it myself today.
The point here that I'm making is bin Salman is not unique in
wielding autonomy. Saudi has done it before. So Bin Salman is
saying, okay, oil, gas and inflation, I'm going to cut
production, and I'm going to cut it again one month before the
midterm elections, to really hurt you. Then I'm going to cancel
bilateral agreements. Then I'm going to invite Xi Jinping, and
I'm going to do a big, nice red carpet. Then I'm going to go to
Iran. I'm going to sign a truce at the same time you're trying to
isolate them. Then I'm going to cancel plans for normalization
with Israel, because Netanyahu promised me that he would be able
to fix my relation with you. He promised me that he would get
Congress and White House, and he hasn't Netanyahu, you promised.
You did it for your promise. So I'm not going to normalize that,
but there seems to be some strategic thinking there. Then. I
mean, you know, one can, of course, quibble and certainly
criticize what MBS is doing. But there is some strategy there.
There is a method to this madness.
Star, it's a genius strategy. This is an example of Bin Salman really
demonstrating statesmanship. And this really pains me to say it as
given what he's doing in Saudi Arabia, but strictly amoral
politics. It's an excellent display of Saudi autonomy and
putting Biden in a position where he can't do anything about it. To
put Biden in a position where Macron will ignore America and
come visit your Riyadh, and then Boris Johnson will come and visit
you and riav and then the German Chancellor will come and visit you
on Riyadh. And then companies will say, we're ready to help you with
vision 2030, or people say, please help us with oil. A lot of it has
come about by circumstance, not by Vincent man's machinations, but
for Bin Salman to use it in that way to his advantage, is certainly
a demonstration of a moral, an emphasis on a moral statement. A
moral is in one word, not two words, not a moral state. A moral
is a no morality involved in this statement whatsoever. So I think
in this regard, what people admire in it admire is a big word. What
people are seeing in it is a demonstration of autonomy. But the
reason I started the answer with reflecting what Saudi kings have
done in the past is to emphasize that this is not a bin Salman
phenomenon. Saudi kings have been prepared to exert autonomy. But I
think when you look at history in abstract, they can look like
stooges. When you look at history in terms of its real politic, of
what actually happened in the region, you will see that a leads
to B, leads to C, leads to D, and if you follow it from A to Z, you
will understand why they made decisions, even if you don't agree
with it. But if you start and said You think they were Stooges, and
that's why, I think, with regards to bin Salman, is situation,
having said that it's genius in terms of how Vincent man is trying
to maximize his interests, but he's in a position of weakness.
And I think one of the things that's quite fascinating is if you
look at the deals being signed with China, a lot of them are
still memorandums of understanding, because the Chinese
are taking advantage of the PR and a diplomatic PR. But the Chinese
are not stupid. The Chinese are aware that bin Salman is flirting
with them to spite the US. The Chinese want to see real, tangible
movement towards a shift. The second point is open a map of the
US military bases. Us is not being replaced anytime soon. No country
comes near the number of military bases that the US has in the
region. Vincent man can't compromise Saudi security by going
towards the Chinese.
Is, all right, that's the second point. And the third point is that
even the idea of, when you look at the dynamics of the Iran Saudi
truce, or the rapprochement, as you call it, or some people are
calling it, the reality is that China's minimal role does suggest
that a lot of it is bluster, to the extent that the UAE itself
believes it's a bit too much, and that's why bin zay didn't go to
the to the Xi Jinping visit to Riyadh. When Xi Jinping came to
Riyadh, didn't go. Said, I'm not taking part in this big,
theatrical, ostentatious display of defiance of the US. That means
absolutely nothing. If he felt there was a shift towards China, I
think bin Zayed would have gone. But bin Zayed believes that the
Chinese are not going to give us anything that the Americans can't
give us, so it's not worth provoking. So I'm staying here and
Miss Amen got upset because he wanted because when Benza didn't
go, everybody saw through the the fluff of what was taking place.
But the point here being is that Vincent man is demonstrating
strategic autonomy that Saudi Arabia has always had the
capability of demonstrating. He's using it in order to navigate a
very difficult situation, a very difficult circumstance. Having
said that, a lot of that is of his own making, sometimes I think what
would have happened if he hadn't killed Khashoggi, or he denies it.
Sometimes I think what would have happened if Khashoggi had not been
murdered. Sometimes he would have happened if perhaps the war in
Yemen, instead of being scared of the Muslim Brotherhood, he had
immediately gone in as he drove the who is out of Adam,
facilitated their march on Sanaa, restored the internationally
recognized government, and boom won the goodwill of the Yemenis,
and he would have been able to cut Iran's arm in Yemen. Instead, he
sat idly by. In other words, we're describing it as suddenly
wonderful statesmanship, but it's statesmanship that's emerging
after incredible blunders over the past five years, which is why I
called the moves genius, as opposed to him being genius. In
other words, he's in crisis management. He's making the best
of a situation that he created for himself, and that's why I think
that it's people are talking about the relation with China, but I
think we're still way far off. And even if you look at Pakistan, for
those who Pakistan talks about balancing between China and the
US, but talk too much about China and the US. Can, he can easily. I
won't say that they're the ones who did a coup or the like, but
the US can easily pull levers that certainly squeeze Pakistan to the
extent that Pakistan recalibrates. Let's put in those terms. Can I
ask you about normalization of relationships with Israel? Now we
know that the two countries have been very close allies for a very
long time, but for some reason, uh, Saudi Arabia is still hesitant
to formally take this step, like many of its neighbors. Uh, is this
down to internal pressure? What? What's going on here? Hamad bin
jasm, the former Qatari Prime Minister, gave an interview with
France, 24 in 2018 November, 1018 anybody, I recommend everybody
listening to watch that interview. It's very interesting. Hamad bin
Jassim tells the presenter that when Arab states normalize with
Israel, this is quote verbatim, when Arab states normalize with
Israel, it's not because they like the Israelis. It's because they
believe that Israel is the key to the White House and US Congress.
Of course, he finished this sentence with but when we Qataris
normalized with Israel, we did it because we sincerely believe. But
that's not the point. I want to focus on this point. In 1996
the Qatari emir Hamad bin Khalifa topples his father. The father
goes to the Saudis and UAE and says to them, please, my son has
done a coup on me while I'm having medical treatment in Europe,
please restore me to my position. So they threatened to invade
Qatar. Hamad bin Khalifa calls the Americans, and this is on Al
Jazeera documentary. So it's not they are proud of this. They call
the American ambassador at 3am and say we are willing to establish
ties with Israel and give you the largest military base in the
region,
if you can stop the Saudi invasion, the American ambassador
tells us all. The documentary narrates how the American
ambassador called the White House and then called the Saudis and
ordered the Saudis not allowed to invade, and Qatar went to open the
Israeli office. It set up the largest US military base, and
Qatar benefited significantly from being the Forward Thinking country
pushing towards peace and navigating itself in this space of
having good ties with Israel and Palestine in order to broker
truths and broken negotiations or the like. Some people might not
like that narrative, but that's Al Jazeera version, not mine, and
Hamid minjesus version, the UAE
says, Look, Qatar has benefited from this relationship with
Israel. And to be honest, the Palestinians hopeless cause, and
they are too much aligned with this pan Islamism thinking and
Islamist thinking, you know, Hamas and Gazan or whatever, and Fatah
harus organization. And the Americans are pressing me a bit
too hard, and I don't like the way my relationship with the
Americans. Netanyahu, what can you do for me in the White House? I'm
trying to constrain the Qataris after the Arab Spring and
whatever, and I don't like Obama, and I'm struggling, etc. So UAE
normalizes with Israel
and secures, quite bluntly, such influence in the Congress and the
White House that, if you notice, very rarely does the.
Ever get called out for any of its foreign policy in Libya or
Ethiopia or Egypt or Yemen. In Yemen is also no one talks about
the UAE and its secret prisons or the like. No one talks about it.
UAE succeeds so emphatically in winning over the US with this
normalization of ties with Israel. And that's why UAE doesn't care
what Israel does to Palestinians and never leverages it. So the
reason why I mentioned is to put into context now. Put yourself in
Bin Salman shoes. God forbid you ever find yourself in those shoes.
Put yourself in Vincent man's shoes. Qatar benefited from
normalization of ties with Israel, to the extent that some argue
there's a narrative. I read it originally in the foreign policy
article. The Qataris denied the version, but somebody, an
official, stated that Netanyahu lobbied against the blockade on
Qatar, and that it was Netanyahu who limited the extent to which
they would go to punish Qatar, the UAE and whatever, whether it's
true or not, is irrelevant. But the point here being is that, from
Vincent man's perspective, Qatar has benefited from normalization
in the past, not normalization in the full normalization, but
certainly in establishing ties. UAE is benefiting sweepingly from
normalization in terms of its ties with Americans. Biden is the one
now begging for a reset of relations and with ties. So
Netanyahu, you tell me, I have this Khashoggi murder lingering
over me. I have the vision 2030 that the Americans are lucky to
invest. Biden keeps calling me a pariah. Do
you think you can do for me what you did for the UAE and for the
Qataris? Netanyahu says, Let me try. Netanyahu goes to the White
House. He finds a Biden administration that is still
doggedly digging his heels in to the extent that even when gas
prices have risen 40% between January and October in the first
year of Biden's rule. Biden is still telling a town hall there
are many folks in the Middle East who want to talk to me. I don't
think I'll be talking to them. You can find it's a White House
extract from a town hall meeting. It's about October, November, if
you're looking for the day. So the point here being, is that Vincent
man is watching the Israelis and saying, You know what the deal is,
I've invited the Israeli team to participate in the Dakar Rally in
in Saudi Arabia. You participated. I've allowed Israeli delegations
to go to Medina and go to Mecca, albeit without unofficially, but
we've seen the videos of them there. I'm doing my bit to show
you goodwill. Show me goodwill. Bring me the White House and bring
me Congress. Biden goes in July, but he's forced to bin Salman
doesn't think it's Israeli victory, so Biden goes. But Biden
does the one thing bin Salman asked him not to do. Talk about
Khashoggi. Biden says, in jadha, I brought up the issue of Khashoggi.
And Biden says, I let him know who I thought was responsible for it.
And Bin Salman scrambles to release an extract in which he
says, and then I said to him, You didn't do anything about Shari Abu
Akhila, the Al Jazeera Jain is killed by the Israelis, in other
words, in clashes. So Vincent man says to Netanyahu, of course, this
part is just scenario, but I'm trying to convey the message,
Sister Netanyahu, I've done my part. I've started to broach ties.
People are talking about possible normalization. Bring me White
House, bring me Congress. And the reason Saudi has not normalized,
from my opinion, from my analysis, is because Vincent man believes
Netanyahu has not delivered yet. When Netanyahu delivers, there
might be normalization of ties. Until Netanyahu delivers, or Tel
Aviv government delivers, then there's no point. Why would I
normalize ties with Israel when companies are not coming to my
country because Biden keeps treating Menaka pariah? Why would
I normalize ties with Netanyahu, when Biden, even when he talks
about strategic ties with me, everybody can tell from his mouth
that he despises me, you know, the way you know whatever shaitan
despises a man who prays. You know, for example. But the idea
here being that for the normalization of ties has nothing
to do with the Palestinians. It's about the door to the White House
and the Congress UAE. The reason it preserves normalization,
despite the storming of Al Aqsa, is because the UAE believes that
Netanyahu has delivered 110%
on ensuring that the White House and Congress don't even mention
UAE in terms of its foreign policy transgressions. And UAE is
expanding up even today in Sudan, I think we're recording this in
what month are we? April in Sudan. Now the general Burhan and Hamidi
are fighting each other. UAE is supporting hameti to overthrow
Burhan, and the US is silent on the UAE role so, and I think so. I
think normalization between Saudi and Israel is possible under bin
Salman,
if Netanyahu can deliver unquestionable loyalty from the
White House in the same way that the UAE, in same with the
relationship between White House and the UAE, and the same way the
relation once was between White House and Qatar. And do you think
that would change with a possible Republican presidency?
I think that it's certainly true that bin Salman prefers a
Republican president, having said that there is an incident that
took place during Trump administration that altered the
way in which I perceive Vincent man's view of the Republicans
right, which is when Saudi and Russia had the oil price war,
and Trump demanded that they stop the war and that they cut.
Production, and Saudi cuts production to bring oil prices up,
and Bin Salman refused, and Trump actually started attacking Saudi
Arabia aggressively in his statements. And the reason bin
Salman refused to cut production is because, traditionally, what
happens is the Americans ask for it. Saudis cut. Americans go in
and take the market share that's been cut, forcing Saudi to cut
even more. And also Saudis believe that American push for shale oil
was bringing the oil prices down and making oil on 10 most society
believe I'm not going to benefit you in this. And that caused
friction in the relationship, and the way Trump resolved it was by
essentially saying, usually, US law doesn't allow this, but he
found a loophole in it, in which he said, US will cut oil
production. Us is not allowed because antitrust laws,
competition laws and But Trump made this sort of interesting
mechanism where US would bear the cuts and also the cuts of some of
the other countries in exchange for an end to the price war. Trump
didn't like the fact that he had to back down to the Saudis, and
that's what leads me to think that while bin Salman is true, he
prefers a Republican president. It's not clear if that Republican
president will have the relationship with Saudi that
Vincent man requires. And the second point is, if a Republican
president comes to power with a good relationship with Vincent
man, what's the point of normalizing with Netanyahu if you
already have that relationship? And that's that's the second item,
and that's why I think that when the Israelis are now unhappy with
that, Bin Salman suggests he's not normalizing anymore. I think it's
less about Vincent man having toyed with him, and more that
Israel just didn't deliver, and it lost its chance if it had
delivered, if Biden had just kept his mouth quiet about pariah, I do
think Vincent man might well have normalized and just imprisoned all
the Masha who would have complained. So I think
normalization is unlikely, but not because Vincent man doesn't want
to, or the Israelis doesn't want to, or because there's no certain
but primarily because Vincent man sees no necessity for it. Yet,
Sami, finally, it seems to me that you are concerned about Islam and
the position of Islam and Muslims in the region, what chance is
there of a potential Islamic power to arise in the region, especially
when our holy sites are in the hands of such repressive un
Islamic autocrats.
I think that one of the things that's worth noting there is an
Arab saying, status quo never lost. I think that while it does
look like things are not looking very well for the Muslim ummah, I
do think a lot of that is as a result of short termism or lack of
memory on the part of the ummah. I think one of the greatest
tragedies that happened to this ummah was the disconnection of our
memories from different areas. And I explain what I mean. First of
all, it's important to remember that 8090, years ago, this region
was under official colonization. The French were legally in
Algeria, the British were legally in India, the Belgians were
legally in the Congo, all these other it was official
colonization. If you went to school, the French flag was waving
over the school, because the global order was that colonization
was the way it was. Even after World War Two, when the French
were liberated from Nazi Germany, when Algerians took to the street
demanding their own independence, France celebrated in Paris and
massacre 30,000 in Algeria to say that freedom belongs to us, not to
you. That was 80 years ago, less than a century ago. Then we
entered a period of independence movements, meaning that the
official colonization could no longer be maintained. It was
impossible, as a result of the actions of this ummah, the
resistance and the like France could not stay in Algeria, it
became impossible. Physically, the British in India could not stay
anymore. It was impossible. Physically, the point here being
is there was a change that led to a betterment of a situation. We
entered a period of political independence, somewhat, but
economic dependency, where economies were still dominated.
Then we go through the period. Let's fast forward now. 2010 we
have the Arab Spring, a movement that Ben Ali was toppled on the
Friday in Tunisia. If you asked any Tunisian on the Thursday that
bin Ali would be toppled tomorrow, he'd have told you, You're a
madman. We were talking about a dialog with Bin Ali and the power
sharing arrangement on the Thursday, not about Ben Ali
running early on the Friday. Hosni Mubarak and the army panicked so
much they got Mubarak to resign in order to cut their losses, and
then allowed free and fair elections to live to fight another
day. The point here being is that official colonization, semi
colonization, as I like to call it, then the Arab Spring. If we
look at it just over the past 80 years, not over the past 200 300
years, there's a trajectory that suggests that we're going
somewhere that suggests greater independence, even if we're not
happy with the process of how it's developing. The reason why I say
that is because when you look at Vincent man's measures, or been
Zayas measures, or when you look at Libya or Tunisia or the like,
the reason there is so much more aggressive repression today than
before is because the people are banging on the door of freedom,
and suddenly the authoritarians are like, my goodness, shut this
door, please. They're too close now, and if we don't shut it now,
it's going to burst wide open. People are viewing the situation
with one of despair, without realizing that the reason they're
being crushed is because the light can be seen.
The end of the tunnel, and that's why I forget when it comes to bin
Salman or the like, when people look at the holy sites, I think we
should flip the perspective in terms of how people are looking at
it, when people complain that Macron is racist in France, or the
like, the reason Islam is such an issue in France is because there
are more and more Muslims in France. French people converting
to Islam. When Europe says that it has a Muslim problem, it's not
Muslims coming from outside. It's Europeans becoming Muslims. When
the Serbians attacked the Bosnians, the reason they hated
the Bosnians so much was because they said, how can you who belong
to me in ethnicity and blood become Muslim? That's what they
are concerned about. In other words, we are having the wrong
interpretation. We're looking at it as if it's a decline without
reason. Everybody else is seeing it in the ascendancy. And that's
why I think that sometimes the reality is this Walla hula, Ibu
nare Allah is in charge at all times of in all affairs, at no
point is he out of control. The question that we all ask should
ask ourselves is, what can we do within the powers that Allah has
given us in order to help, to promote, in order help to promote
Islam, will promote the freedom, will promote the liberation of
these people. When you look at Gaza into in May 2021
we saw for the first time ever, Israel finally lost its monopoly
on the narrative, on Palestine Israel. Some people said, What do
you mean? Lost monopoly on the narrative. Have you ever seen the
New York Times publish an article saying that the US Israeli
relationship will never be the same? Have you ever seen Nicholas
Christo, the journalist, write and say, We need to realign our
relationship with Israel. Now. Why? Because the Instagram of the
Palestinians. Everybody saw it, the Old English woman sitting in
Brighton, or whatever. Something I said, Mike, is this what they do
to the Palestinians? I never knew this. They're the ones going into
the worshippers. Why are they beating up worshipers that social
media broke that and that's why, in 1021 Benny Gantz, the Israeli
Defense Minister, during the bombardment of Gaza, he summoned
the directors of Facebook, Tiktok and Instagram, and asked them guys
take down the wretched Palestinian content, because he knew that the
shift in was was taking place. And that's why now, when you talk
about Palestine Israel issue, human rights, Watch uses the word
apartheid. Amnesty uses the word apartheid. Apartheid is used on
the Congress floor. People think these are just small gains, but
they completely transform how people talk and have discourse
about the issue. And that's why I think, and when people look at the
Arab Spring and they see the Arab Spring failed, the reality is
this, look at the discourse now taking place in Washington between
non Muslims, which is, guys, what space are we going to leave for
Islam then? Because now that we've crushed who Muslims think are the
most liberal of the Muslims, we are going to be encouraging
extremism. So now they are revising their relationship with
Islamic parties and talking about changing the attitudes to allow
more room for their participation. I'm not saying that's the
solution. I'm saying Look how they went from trying to destroy them
to talking about how to incorporate them, because they're
aware and they acknowledge that Islam is still the most potent
force. So the point here is this, it is abundantly clear that Allah
is preserving his religion and that it is growing day by day,
when Allah will Fathom Nasi Horan, 15 ALA, they enter Islam in waves.
In this world today, in our currency, people are entering
Islam in waves. And that's why, I think that those who say that
we're in decline, or we're not or they don't see the trajectory that
it's going, there are people who cannot see Allah's favor. And
that's why I think that the reality is this, it's not about
asking, How can I revive Islam is that Allah has preserved it. Give
me the honor of being the tool through which Islam is preserved
and encouraged. And I will say this, don't discredit small
victories. When kilij darolu in Turkey today is saying that hijab
is the head of the CHP, which banned the hijab, which repressed
the Muslims, which put the scholars in prison, which asked
this military to do a coup on every prime minister who attempted
to Islamize Turkey, when kilij dalagu, that same party, is now
saying things that Ataturk would turn in his grave if he heard when
he says, Turkish Muslim woman, I promise you vote for me. I swear I
will never ban hijab again. And the proof, I will put it in the
constitution so no one can touch it that shows how far Turkey,
which we thought was a lost cause, has developed. And I think that's
why sometimes I think it's a lot about perspective. And the Prophet
Muhammad Sallallahu, sallam said, tafa Aran tajidu, be optimistic
about something, and you will find it. Be optimistic about Allah, and
you will find it. The Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu said, one of
the reasons that I always say, whenever students ask and they
say, What is the best book to read on politics? I tell them, read the
Sira, not from the religious lens, but from a political lens. The
Prophet only conquered Mecca Medina before he died, Mecca and
Medina and he went down as the greatest politician in history. By
the words of Michael Hart, the historian the Prophet Muhammad saw
him did not measure success. Based on these things that we tend to
measure success, the prophet measures success in that the deen
would never disappear again. And that's why I think that you see
these things are changing now. People say, for example, there is
a ad now in Stanford bridge. The Muslim says, yeah, what does an
Adhan and stand the bridge Stanford bridge benefit me? Then
we.
The comments of non Muslims guys. And then in the middle of London,
in Stamford Bridge, what's going on. They see what it means, even
if we Muslims don't appreciate it in France, when suddenly they're
having a debate and they're saying, Guys, the Muslim Paul
Pogba is the French child's hero. The Muslim in Golo Cante is the
French child's hero. The Muslim zinedan is the French child's
hero. Karim Benzema is the French child's hero. Guys, if we're not
careful, our French generation will the new generation will
forget what it means to be French, and they'll be like those Africans
when they realize the impact Islam is having, and the Muslim instead
turns on and says, This means nothing for me. This is a lack of
appreciation of how Allah makes his religion supreme. And that's
why I think that the reality is this, my grandfather was a Mujahid
who fought against the French, and he lived to see he was in the
mountains with his brothers. One brother was killed. He had aunties
who had * chopped off and tortured. He had horseshoe marks
everything. But I remember one thing that he said after he
finished his I said to him he wasn't happy with the way Algeria
was after independence, corruption and the like. But he said, Listen,
my generation was about securing liberate, liberation. Your
generation is to build from there. I don't want you to go backwards
and do what I did. I did my job. I did my life, and Allah will reward
me based on it. Your role is to do the next stage. In other words,
people always imagine that I should do something where at the
end of my life, I can stand on the podium and say I did it, without
realizing that the reason Allah made and probably I'm trying to
find a nice way to put it, the reason why Allah made sacrifice
something so is because Allah says, if you're ready to give
something up for me, I will give you the benefit in the Hereafter,
and the rest of the Ummah would benefit for it later on. And
that's why the question is, where do you fit within this
irresistible wave of history in which Islam is still continuing,
and that's why I tell you interesting story. I was in
Azerbaijan recently, and I asked to go see the Zoroastrian temple.
I was fascinated by the idea of a fire that never dies, and I
couldn't understand how people, for 1000s of years, they worship
fire. And this is no disrespect to the Zoroastrianism or the like,
but they said an interesting story where an American came to
Azerbaijan and saw the fire, and he saw people worshiping it, but
his reaction was not, this fire is ever burning. His reaction was,
there's oil under this fire. The point here being is how he he
viewed it, the different perspectives, yes, and I think
with Muslims, sometimes we, Ibn Khaldun said that a civilization
is not destroyed when it's destroyed. Physically, is
destroyed when it's destroyed psychologically, Allah says, We
entered Allah. If you were to count the blessings of Allah,
you'd never finish counting them. And I think the reason Allah says
that in the Quran is so you may always remember that he's ever
present. In other words, that when you see something that looks like
despair, you're able to count and say, Wait a minute. Allah is here.
And it's the same with politics, because people think that this
situation has always been there. But think about it. Guys Ben Ali
fell 2010 that's only 10 years ago before then we had constant
changes in government movements as well, the Muslim Brotherhood,
whatever you might think of them, things are moving forward. The
question the Muslim should ask is not why are we in such a state,
but that, given things are moving, how can I amplify that wave? And
that's why I think that the to answer go back to your question,
even though I diverge here, there, left, right, everywhere. But the
point here being going back to your question, terms of what
Muslims can do, in terms of what's happening in Mecca Medina, do what
you can if you can speak. Martin Luther King has a lovely saying in
which he said the if you can run, run,
if you can't run, walk, if you can't walk, crawl. But by God,
keep moving. The point here being is, guys, an Instagram post makes
a huge difference. If it didn't Benny Gantz, we didn't have asked
to take pride protesting. Facebook post, Twitter post, engaging with
your charity, going to your mosque on a dressing up in a clothes that
makes you look Muslims, going together in groups for aid,
prayer, for Salat. All these things make a huge difference.
Because you might think that it's antagonistic, but somebody looking
from far says, I want to be part of this. And that's what I think,
and that's why I think one of the greatest signs of this is the
greatest inspirations for me in politics,
Leopold Wise, who became Muhammad Asad. The book they wrote to Mecca
Aliyah, is that begovich, ethnically European hero,
inescapable questions transform my perspective on diplomacy. Martin
Ling's a river who wrote, in my opinion, the greatest compilation
of the Sira. It's what I used to go back to when I want to analyze
politics. I want to see what they do, because he brings so many
different sources. Allah has made his religion great through the
very people that right now you're looking at them. They may be non
Muslim, but tomorrow they may be the ones who inspire the
revolution, and that's why, personally, I'm always an optimist
with this, yes, Vincent man is implementing de islamization. But
I go back to the point, and I finish on this point. 90 years of
secularization in Tunisia, they voted Islamist parties in free
affair elections. 90 years of secularization in Turkey, they
brought Erdogan to power. Whatever problems you might have, but you
cannot deny the changes that have taken place in tech. I remember
Turkey before Erdogan, and believe me, it is so different when a
secular Turkish academic is saying Istanbul now looks like Anatolia.
What he means is there are too many hijabis. What he means is
Muslim women have found a haven in Istanbul, or what was once called
Islam bull, for example. These changes.
Is, I don't think we should underrate them. We should be part
of them. We should be pushing them. And I think bin Salman, the
reality is Allah is ever present. I don't think he'll succeed in it.
And I think that even if there are chains on this ummah, it still
breathes. And I think those chains are weakening. Sami hamly On that
very positive. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thanks
for having me. Thank you for wonderful.
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