Omar Suleiman – Gaza Diaries – How Your Tech Is Being Used For Genocide

Omar Suleiman
Share Page

AI: Summary ©

The speakers discuss the negative impact of tech on children and the role of technology in atrocities. They describe the negative impacts of the lack of awareness and lack of understanding of risks of technology on people's lives, as well as the negative impact of the American political system on people's views of the world. They also discuss the negative impact of the private sector, the need for people to be more aware of the negative consequences of protesting Google's actions, and the potential impact of the US's suppression of bleeding and the broader population. The conversation ends with thanks and a continuing struggle.

AI: Summary ©

00:00:00 --> 00:00:01
			I can't sleep.
		
00:00:02 --> 00:00:04
			I'm lying in bed every night and images
		
00:00:04 --> 00:00:06
			of Gaza are running through my head. Fathers
		
00:00:06 --> 00:00:09
			holding their babies, dead, caked in dust.
		
00:00:09 --> 00:00:12
			Bombs dropped on homes, on hospitals,
		
00:00:12 --> 00:00:13
			on schools.
		
00:00:13 --> 00:00:17
			Tens of thousands of dead and indiscriminate bombings.
		
00:00:17 --> 00:00:18
			Children crying,
		
00:00:19 --> 00:00:21
			pulling through rubble to find their families.
		
00:00:21 --> 00:00:23
			This was the first paragraph
		
00:00:24 --> 00:00:26
			in a blog post that many of us
		
00:00:26 --> 00:00:27
			read back in December
		
00:00:28 --> 00:00:30
			called, I can't sleep.
		
00:00:30 --> 00:00:33
			And it was written by an individual named
		
00:00:33 --> 00:00:36
			Paul Bigger, who has since gone on to
		
00:00:36 --> 00:00:36
			found
		
00:00:37 --> 00:00:39
			a group called Tech for Palestine and has
		
00:00:39 --> 00:00:41
			been vocal about the role of Tech
		
00:00:42 --> 00:00:44
			in this atrocious genocide that we have been
		
00:00:44 --> 00:00:46
			witnessing day in and day out.
		
00:00:46 --> 00:00:48
			Dear brothers and sisters, as we've been speaking
		
00:00:48 --> 00:00:48
			about
		
00:00:49 --> 00:00:52
			Gaza diaries, people that have been in Gaza
		
00:00:52 --> 00:00:53
			on the ground
		
00:00:53 --> 00:00:55
			and have witnessed the atrocities firsthand.
		
00:00:56 --> 00:00:58
			I think one of the things that all
		
00:00:58 --> 00:00:59
			of us have greatly underestimated
		
00:01:00 --> 00:01:03
			is the way that tech has been deployed
		
00:01:03 --> 00:01:04
			in this atrocious genocide
		
00:01:05 --> 00:01:06
			that we have been there
		
00:01:07 --> 00:01:10
			in different ways. That the same products that
		
00:01:10 --> 00:01:12
			we consume from the same companies
		
00:01:12 --> 00:01:14
			are being used to
		
00:01:15 --> 00:01:17
			destroy the lives of others, even as they
		
00:01:17 --> 00:01:19
			seemingly improve ours.
		
00:01:19 --> 00:01:22
			That drones that fly above the heads, you
		
00:01:22 --> 00:01:24
			might remember when we interviewed doctor Hayfa and
		
00:01:24 --> 00:01:26
			she spoke about how
		
00:01:26 --> 00:01:28
			you're safe as long as you can hear
		
00:01:28 --> 00:01:30
			the sound of drones. You're not safe when
		
00:01:30 --> 00:01:31
			they disappear because that means that a bombing
		
00:01:31 --> 00:01:32
			is imminent.
		
00:01:32 --> 00:01:34
			You live with this sound,
		
00:01:35 --> 00:01:35
			zzz.
		
00:01:36 --> 00:01:37
			And I was like, what is this?
		
00:01:38 --> 00:01:40
			Because my bed was exactly next to the
		
00:01:40 --> 00:01:41
			window.
		
00:01:51 --> 00:01:54
			And they say it's so casual. Oh, this
		
00:01:54 --> 00:01:55
			is the drones.
		
00:01:55 --> 00:01:56
			Dactora,
		
00:01:56 --> 00:01:57
			don't be scared.
		
00:01:58 --> 00:02:00
			I said drones. They said, oh, no. As
		
00:02:00 --> 00:02:01
			long as you hear it,
		
00:02:02 --> 00:02:04
			then you're safe. It's when it's quiet
		
00:02:05 --> 00:02:06
			you need
		
00:02:07 --> 00:02:09
			to be careful. Mhmm. And if you hear
		
00:02:09 --> 00:02:10
			the sound of bombing,
		
00:02:11 --> 00:02:13
			you need to smile. Listen to this,
		
00:02:13 --> 00:02:14
			SubhanAllah.
		
00:02:14 --> 00:02:16
			If it is coming to you, you will
		
00:02:16 --> 00:02:18
			feel nothing, either you will feel nothing because
		
00:02:18 --> 00:02:19
			you're dead
		
00:02:20 --> 00:02:22
			or the next thing you'll see, everything is
		
00:02:22 --> 00:02:24
			in your head. You will not hear the
		
00:02:24 --> 00:02:26
			sound of the bombing.
		
00:02:27 --> 00:02:28
			That those same drones
		
00:02:29 --> 00:02:32
			have made the sounds of crying children to
		
00:02:32 --> 00:02:34
			force Palestinians to run out to try to
		
00:02:34 --> 00:02:38
			save children only to become the next set
		
00:02:38 --> 00:02:38
			of casualties.
		
00:02:39 --> 00:02:41
			I remember a cousin that,
		
00:02:41 --> 00:02:42
			lived in Gaza
		
00:02:43 --> 00:02:44
			speaking to me, and he just made it
		
00:02:44 --> 00:02:45
			out of Rafah,
		
00:02:46 --> 00:02:47
			just a few days ago.
		
00:02:47 --> 00:02:49
			And I remember in 2021, he shared this
		
00:02:49 --> 00:02:52
			with me. He said that what made this
		
00:02:52 --> 00:02:55
			bombing so different, what made this particular round
		
00:02:55 --> 00:02:57
			of atrocities so different back in 20
		
00:02:58 --> 00:02:59
			21, and he's lived through all of them.
		
00:03:00 --> 00:03:02
			He said that it felt like this time
		
00:03:02 --> 00:03:05
			we were lab rats, that this is just
		
00:03:05 --> 00:03:05
			some
		
00:03:06 --> 00:03:08
			big experiment and we are the subject of
		
00:03:08 --> 00:03:10
			that experiment. He said that
		
00:03:10 --> 00:03:12
			of those that he lost in 2021
		
00:03:13 --> 00:03:13
			are those that
		
00:03:14 --> 00:03:16
			came closest to the bombings in 2021 that
		
00:03:16 --> 00:03:19
			they described these tiny devices coming right to
		
00:03:19 --> 00:03:19
			their windows
		
00:03:20 --> 00:03:22
			and then entering in as tiny devices before
		
00:03:22 --> 00:03:23
			they exploded
		
00:03:23 --> 00:03:26
			that they had seen sophisticated weaponry that they
		
00:03:26 --> 00:03:28
			had not seen before.
		
00:03:28 --> 00:03:29
			We are witnessing
		
00:03:29 --> 00:03:31
			a genocide on our screens,
		
00:03:32 --> 00:03:35
			but the same companies that manufacture our screens
		
00:03:35 --> 00:03:37
			are also part of the perpetrating of this
		
00:03:37 --> 00:03:38
			genocide.
		
00:03:39 --> 00:03:41
			Paul Biggar, I want to welcome you, and
		
00:03:41 --> 00:03:42
			I want to thank you,
		
00:03:43 --> 00:03:44
			for the work that you have been doing
		
00:03:44 --> 00:03:47
			in the past few months to try to
		
00:03:47 --> 00:03:49
			bring about awareness and then to also try
		
00:03:49 --> 00:03:50
			to bring about a solution
		
00:03:51 --> 00:03:51
			to
		
00:03:52 --> 00:03:55
			the atrocious nature of tech these days. Thank
		
00:03:55 --> 00:03:58
			you so much for being with us, today.
		
00:03:58 --> 00:04:00
			If you could briefly introduce yourself and the
		
00:04:00 --> 00:04:01
			work that you do,
		
00:04:02 --> 00:04:04
			to the audience here today. Thank you so
		
00:04:04 --> 00:04:05
			much for having me.
		
00:04:05 --> 00:04:07
			The I I've always been
		
00:04:08 --> 00:04:09
			a startup founder.
		
00:04:10 --> 00:04:12
			I'm a software engineer by training, but I
		
00:04:12 --> 00:04:14
			got into startups and entrepreneurship,
		
00:04:14 --> 00:04:16
			and I've been doing that for
		
00:04:17 --> 00:04:18
			15 ish years.
		
00:04:18 --> 00:04:19
			The,
		
00:04:20 --> 00:04:22
			I started Tech for Palestine
		
00:04:23 --> 00:04:24
			along with a group of
		
00:04:25 --> 00:04:26
			25 other people,
		
00:04:27 --> 00:04:29
			because we were all doing projects that were
		
00:04:29 --> 00:04:32
			that were in some way intended to help
		
00:04:33 --> 00:04:35
			to help people in Palestine, to help change
		
00:04:35 --> 00:04:38
			the narrative around Palestine in the US,
		
00:04:38 --> 00:04:41
			and in particular, to to change the narrative
		
00:04:41 --> 00:04:42
			in, the tech field.
		
00:04:43 --> 00:04:43
			What made
		
00:04:44 --> 00:04:45
			you
		
00:04:45 --> 00:04:47
			write this blog post on December 14th? If
		
00:04:47 --> 00:04:49
			you can kinda walk me through the process,
		
00:04:49 --> 00:04:51
			when did you think about writing it,
		
00:04:52 --> 00:04:54
			What made you write it, and what has
		
00:04:54 --> 00:04:55
			been the reaction since?
		
00:04:55 --> 00:04:56
			I was on vacation
		
00:04:57 --> 00:05:00
			for for a couple of weeks in October,
		
00:05:00 --> 00:05:01
			November,
		
00:05:04 --> 00:05:05
			and I just I wasn't
		
00:05:06 --> 00:05:07
			you know, all the time, I was just
		
00:05:07 --> 00:05:10
			checking my phone to see what was happening
		
00:05:10 --> 00:05:11
			in Gaza.
		
00:05:11 --> 00:05:12
			And so I was I was sort of
		
00:05:12 --> 00:05:13
			marinating
		
00:05:13 --> 00:05:15
			in in the genocide.
		
00:05:16 --> 00:05:18
			And the whole time, I was thinking, what
		
00:05:18 --> 00:05:19
			what can I do
		
00:05:19 --> 00:05:21
			about this? What you know? I I I
		
00:05:21 --> 00:05:23
			think we all expect that that at some
		
00:05:23 --> 00:05:24
			point in our lives, we get to the
		
00:05:24 --> 00:05:26
			point where where we can have some sort
		
00:05:26 --> 00:05:27
			of impact, where where, you know, if we're
		
00:05:27 --> 00:05:30
			successful in our careers, then, you know, finally,
		
00:05:30 --> 00:05:32
			people will will listen to us or we
		
00:05:32 --> 00:05:33
			can do something about
		
00:05:34 --> 00:05:36
			the bad things that happen in the world.
		
00:05:37 --> 00:05:39
			And I was I was feeling extremely helpless,
		
00:05:41 --> 00:05:41
			and
		
00:05:42 --> 00:05:44
			I thought, you know, just what is the
		
00:05:44 --> 00:05:46
			thing that that I can do? And I
		
00:05:46 --> 00:05:47
			realized that,
		
00:05:47 --> 00:05:48
			you know,
		
00:05:48 --> 00:05:49
			I'm good at writing,
		
00:05:51 --> 00:05:52
			and I have a little bit of a
		
00:05:52 --> 00:05:54
			platform, a little bit of a following, not
		
00:05:54 --> 00:05:55
			not huge.
		
00:05:56 --> 00:05:58
			But I realized that the the thing that
		
00:05:58 --> 00:06:00
			I had was was that I have extremely
		
00:06:00 --> 00:06:01
			high
		
00:06:03 --> 00:06:04
			tolerance for risk,
		
00:06:04 --> 00:06:06
			and I'm at a place in my life
		
00:06:06 --> 00:06:07
			where
		
00:06:07 --> 00:06:10
			being canceled just isn't the thing that's gonna
		
00:06:10 --> 00:06:10
			affect me.
		
00:06:11 --> 00:06:13
			And I realized that if I don't write
		
00:06:13 --> 00:06:15
			a piece like this,
		
00:06:15 --> 00:06:17
			then then who will?
		
00:06:17 --> 00:06:19
			The the narrative that I that I realized
		
00:06:19 --> 00:06:21
			I had to take was was one where,
		
00:06:22 --> 00:06:23
			you know, I I don't you know, I
		
00:06:23 --> 00:06:25
			was I was new to Palestine. I I
		
00:06:25 --> 00:06:27
			I've never been, I've never been to Middle
		
00:06:27 --> 00:06:28
			East at all. The,
		
00:06:30 --> 00:06:31
			you know, I I wasn't
		
00:06:32 --> 00:06:34
			someone who could discuss the the that I
		
00:06:34 --> 00:06:36
			had, you know, just read about for the
		
00:06:36 --> 00:06:37
			first time weeks beforehand.
		
00:06:38 --> 00:06:40
			But I realized that that what I could
		
00:06:40 --> 00:06:41
			write was just the feelings that I was
		
00:06:41 --> 00:06:44
			having, and I I felt that probably a
		
00:06:44 --> 00:06:45
			lot of other people were having the same
		
00:06:45 --> 00:06:47
			feelings. So I kinda wanna,
		
00:06:47 --> 00:06:48
			you know,
		
00:06:49 --> 00:06:50
			ask you to sort of take us through
		
00:06:50 --> 00:06:52
			a process of how
		
00:06:52 --> 00:06:55
			this all happens in terms of the tech
		
00:06:55 --> 00:06:57
			world's involvement. You know, over the last few
		
00:06:57 --> 00:06:57
			years,
		
00:06:58 --> 00:07:00
			we've been trying to paint a picture for
		
00:07:00 --> 00:07:02
			people of what the process of apartheid is.
		
00:07:02 --> 00:07:04
			Right? And how that is so
		
00:07:05 --> 00:07:05
			embedded
		
00:07:06 --> 00:07:06
			in the institutions
		
00:07:08 --> 00:07:10
			that we partake in on a daily basis.
		
00:07:10 --> 00:07:12
			So at the core of the BDS Movement,
		
00:07:12 --> 00:07:14
			many people are learning about divestment for the
		
00:07:14 --> 00:07:16
			very first time. Right? They kind of understood
		
00:07:16 --> 00:07:18
			the concept of boycott at a personal level,
		
00:07:18 --> 00:07:19
			but divestment
		
00:07:19 --> 00:07:21
			at the education level. And you can see
		
00:07:21 --> 00:07:22
			the way
		
00:07:23 --> 00:07:23
			that people
		
00:07:24 --> 00:07:27
			are sickened when they come to realize that
		
00:07:27 --> 00:07:29
			the same institutions of higher learning
		
00:07:29 --> 00:07:30
			that they put their kids in or that
		
00:07:30 --> 00:07:32
			they enroll in
		
00:07:33 --> 00:07:35
			to become change makers in the world are
		
00:07:35 --> 00:07:36
			also investing
		
00:07:36 --> 00:07:39
			in such a horrendous occupation, investing
		
00:07:39 --> 00:07:41
			in Apartheid. And you kind of paint that
		
00:07:41 --> 00:07:42
			picture of
		
00:07:43 --> 00:07:45
			someone who goes to school, who works hard
		
00:07:46 --> 00:07:47
			to pay their tuition
		
00:07:48 --> 00:07:50
			with whatever money is left over after the
		
00:07:50 --> 00:07:52
			tax dollars that are also being used to
		
00:07:52 --> 00:07:53
			fund the weaponry
		
00:07:54 --> 00:07:56
			and then coming to realize that that money
		
00:07:56 --> 00:07:57
			is going to
		
00:07:58 --> 00:08:01
			also the investment in occupation and apartheid.
		
00:08:01 --> 00:08:04
			Making people aware of defense contractors and the
		
00:08:04 --> 00:08:07
			role that the military industrial complex plays in
		
00:08:07 --> 00:08:08
			all of this,
		
00:08:08 --> 00:08:10
			the cruelty of this, that this is a
		
00:08:10 --> 00:08:13
			big market. Right I think many people average
		
00:08:13 --> 00:08:15
			Americans came to know about Halliburton and how
		
00:08:15 --> 00:08:17
			that factored into the Iraq war
		
00:08:18 --> 00:08:20
			and so many different ways that
		
00:08:21 --> 00:08:22
			it just speaks to the cruelty
		
00:08:24 --> 00:08:26
			of the so called progress,
		
00:08:27 --> 00:08:29
			in society where you've got someone,
		
00:08:29 --> 00:08:31
			you know, sitting behind a computer
		
00:08:32 --> 00:08:34
			in Nevada, you know, eating a bag of
		
00:08:34 --> 00:08:35
			chips,
		
00:08:35 --> 00:08:38
			sipping on a Coke can that just presses
		
00:08:38 --> 00:08:40
			a button and then that deploys this drone
		
00:08:41 --> 00:08:43
			that goes and blows up a wedding and
		
00:08:43 --> 00:08:46
			murders 200 innocent people. So it's it's painting
		
00:08:46 --> 00:08:47
			the picture. Right?
		
00:08:47 --> 00:08:50
			And walking people through the entire process of
		
00:08:50 --> 00:08:53
			apartheid, the the process of being invested in
		
00:08:53 --> 00:08:54
			apartheid as a country.
		
00:08:55 --> 00:08:57
			How do you start to paint that picture
		
00:08:57 --> 00:09:00
			for someone who doesn't understand how tech factors
		
00:09:00 --> 00:09:02
			into all of this? What is the role
		
00:09:02 --> 00:09:03
			that these companies play
		
00:09:04 --> 00:09:05
			in apartheid,
		
00:09:05 --> 00:09:08
			in the genocide, and how were we maybe
		
00:09:08 --> 00:09:11
			subconsciously playing a part in that process without
		
00:09:11 --> 00:09:13
			even realizing it? I think the challenge that
		
00:09:13 --> 00:09:15
			people have in understanding it is is how
		
00:09:15 --> 00:09:18
			systemic it is. It's it's not
		
00:09:19 --> 00:09:22
			a direct connection between the things that we
		
00:09:22 --> 00:09:22
			do.
		
00:09:23 --> 00:09:23
			It's rather
		
00:09:24 --> 00:09:24
			a
		
00:09:25 --> 00:09:28
			system of everything being connected in a way
		
00:09:28 --> 00:09:30
			that makes it so the money that we
		
00:09:30 --> 00:09:31
			make
		
00:09:31 --> 00:09:32
			when
		
00:09:32 --> 00:09:34
			we scroll through Instagram, right, we we we
		
00:09:34 --> 00:09:36
			make money for Meta. Meta uses that
		
00:09:37 --> 00:09:37
			to,
		
00:09:38 --> 00:09:38
			suppress
		
00:09:39 --> 00:09:40
			the,
		
00:09:42 --> 00:09:44
			the the content that we see. They build
		
00:09:44 --> 00:09:47
			they build AI, and that AI is used
		
00:09:47 --> 00:09:49
			to decide which voices are going to be
		
00:09:49 --> 00:09:50
			seen.
		
00:09:51 --> 00:09:52
			And when you
		
00:09:53 --> 00:09:55
			take a step back from a company that's
		
00:09:55 --> 00:09:58
			doing specific suppression like Meta or Google or
		
00:09:58 --> 00:10:00
			YouTube, the
		
00:10:00 --> 00:10:03
			and you take it back 20 years earlier.
		
00:10:03 --> 00:10:06
			There was a point at which Mark Zuckerberg
		
00:10:06 --> 00:10:07
			was trying to set up Meta or that
		
00:10:07 --> 00:10:09
			Larry Page was setting up Google
		
00:10:10 --> 00:10:13
			where a room full of people,
		
00:10:15 --> 00:10:16
			were deciding,
		
00:10:17 --> 00:10:18
			should we give
		
00:10:19 --> 00:10:19
			$500,000
		
00:10:20 --> 00:10:22
			to Mark Zuckerberg to decide that he can
		
00:10:22 --> 00:10:24
			make this this thing that's gonna take over
		
00:10:24 --> 00:10:27
			the world? And the people in that room
		
00:10:27 --> 00:10:28
			are,
		
00:10:28 --> 00:10:30
			you know, a huge part of the system.
		
00:10:30 --> 00:10:32
			They're you you're talking about universities. They are
		
00:10:32 --> 00:10:34
			also getting a lot of their funding from
		
00:10:34 --> 00:10:36
			universities. So people like Peter Thiel, for example.
		
00:10:36 --> 00:10:39
			Peter Thiel, who made a decisive
		
00:10:39 --> 00:10:40
			and important,
		
00:10:41 --> 00:10:41
			donation
		
00:10:42 --> 00:10:44
			to Donald Trump in the 20 16 election.
		
00:10:44 --> 00:10:47
			Peter Thiel, who invested in Palantir,
		
00:10:47 --> 00:10:50
			and who who who started and cofounded Palantir,
		
00:10:50 --> 00:10:51
			which is part of the AI behind the
		
00:10:51 --> 00:10:53
			war, is the same Peter Thiel who gave
		
00:10:53 --> 00:10:54
			Mark Zuckerberg $500,000
		
00:10:55 --> 00:10:58
			that was instrumental in building Facebook in 2,005.
		
00:10:59 --> 00:11:03
			The systems of venture capital, of right wing,
		
00:11:03 --> 00:11:05
			of weapons manufacturer,
		
00:11:05 --> 00:11:07
			of private equity, they're all,
		
00:11:08 --> 00:11:08
			you know,
		
00:11:09 --> 00:11:09
			interrelated
		
00:11:10 --> 00:11:12
			with the tech companies, whether they're they're social
		
00:11:12 --> 00:11:14
			media tech companies or whether they're they're tech
		
00:11:14 --> 00:11:16
			companies that are, you know, doing
		
00:11:17 --> 00:11:19
			cybersecurity and testing it directly on the Palestinian
		
00:11:20 --> 00:11:21
			people. I think that one of the things
		
00:11:21 --> 00:11:22
			that
		
00:11:22 --> 00:11:24
			really shocks people is not the idea that
		
00:11:24 --> 00:11:27
			these social media companies are actively suppressing
		
00:11:28 --> 00:11:30
			the voices on behalf of the Palestinian cause,
		
00:11:32 --> 00:11:33
			you know, in service to
		
00:11:34 --> 00:11:36
			the Zionist project, I think that what is
		
00:11:36 --> 00:11:38
			shocking to people is how active these same
		
00:11:38 --> 00:11:41
			companies have been in the actual oppression and
		
00:11:41 --> 00:11:43
			the actual operation that's taking place. So, like,
		
00:11:43 --> 00:11:45
			if you were to tell me a few
		
00:11:45 --> 00:11:46
			months ago
		
00:11:47 --> 00:11:47
			that WhatsApp
		
00:11:48 --> 00:11:51
			would be directly complicit, that Meta would be
		
00:11:51 --> 00:11:53
			feeding facial recognition
		
00:11:54 --> 00:11:56
			to the Israeli government, right, which literally puts
		
00:11:56 --> 00:11:58
			people's lives in danger.
		
00:11:58 --> 00:12:00
			That a group of billionaires on a WhatsApp
		
00:12:00 --> 00:12:01
			group
		
00:12:01 --> 00:12:04
			are directing the New York mayor on behalf
		
00:12:04 --> 00:12:06
			of a foreign government
		
00:12:06 --> 00:12:07
			to
		
00:12:07 --> 00:12:11
			shut down encampments at Columbia. That AI
		
00:12:11 --> 00:12:14
			is being used to eliminate Palestinian people already,
		
00:12:15 --> 00:12:16
			that that they have a way by which
		
00:12:16 --> 00:12:19
			they deploy pure tech and that they are
		
00:12:19 --> 00:12:21
			experimenting, that there's big money in this.
		
00:12:22 --> 00:12:23
			You know, I wouldn't have thought
		
00:12:24 --> 00:12:26
			it would be this advanced already. Right? I
		
00:12:26 --> 00:12:28
			think that there have been warnings about AI.
		
00:12:28 --> 00:12:30
			There have been warnings about where these tech
		
00:12:30 --> 00:12:31
			companies are going,
		
00:12:32 --> 00:12:34
			but how far have we already lost the
		
00:12:34 --> 00:12:35
			plot right that's kind of the question is
		
00:12:35 --> 00:12:37
			like how far gone are we already you've
		
00:12:37 --> 00:12:38
			already got
		
00:12:38 --> 00:12:41
			so much that's been done and so much
		
00:12:41 --> 00:12:42
			that's been developed that
		
00:12:43 --> 00:12:45
			there still haven't been leaks about that we
		
00:12:45 --> 00:12:46
			still haven't had,
		
00:12:46 --> 00:12:48
			you know, the the Pauls of the world
		
00:12:48 --> 00:12:49
			come out and tell us about that are
		
00:12:49 --> 00:12:51
			that are operating behind the scenes. So how
		
00:12:51 --> 00:12:52
			far
		
00:12:52 --> 00:12:55
			has this gone, and can it ever be
		
00:12:55 --> 00:12:58
			reeled back? We are gone gone. It's it's
		
00:12:58 --> 00:12:59
			so far.
		
00:13:01 --> 00:13:02
			The
		
00:13:02 --> 00:13:03
			everywhere
		
00:13:03 --> 00:13:04
			that you look,
		
00:13:05 --> 00:13:05
			there's
		
00:13:06 --> 00:13:07
			people who are
		
00:13:08 --> 00:13:09
			promoting Israel,
		
00:13:09 --> 00:13:10
			who are,
		
00:13:11 --> 00:13:14
			controlling some aspect of the conversation,
		
00:13:14 --> 00:13:16
			whether it's the editors of the New York
		
00:13:16 --> 00:13:18
			Times who are printing
		
00:13:19 --> 00:13:21
			direct propaganda direct false propaganda.
		
00:13:22 --> 00:13:25
			Everywhere I look, there's there's someone pulling on
		
00:13:25 --> 00:13:26
			the strings. So I'll give you I'll give
		
00:13:26 --> 00:13:29
			you one example that you're you're asking about
		
00:13:29 --> 00:13:30
			Meta, and this is this is, you know,
		
00:13:30 --> 00:13:31
			frankly shocking.
		
00:13:32 --> 00:13:32
			The
		
00:13:33 --> 00:13:34
			you know, when when you look at the
		
00:13:34 --> 00:13:35
			meta leadership,
		
00:13:36 --> 00:13:37
			Mark Zuckerberg
		
00:13:37 --> 00:13:40
			donated money to Zaca, which is one of
		
00:13:40 --> 00:13:42
			the largest or sorry, one of the creators
		
00:13:43 --> 00:13:44
			of the,
		
00:13:44 --> 00:13:48
			October 7th atrocity propaganda that that has been
		
00:13:48 --> 00:13:50
			consistently and repeatedly proven false by by lots
		
00:13:50 --> 00:13:51
			of different,
		
00:13:53 --> 00:13:53
			publications,
		
00:13:54 --> 00:13:57
			including Israeli ones. They have Sheryl Sandberg, who's
		
00:13:57 --> 00:13:59
			on their board and who for a long
		
00:13:59 --> 00:14:01
			time was was their leader, who is one
		
00:14:01 --> 00:14:03
			of the most active,
		
00:14:04 --> 00:14:05
			spreaders of the,
		
00:14:07 --> 00:14:08
			of the mass * hoax,
		
00:14:09 --> 00:14:10
			that is used to dehumanize
		
00:14:11 --> 00:14:11
			Palestinians.
		
00:14:12 --> 00:14:15
			Their their chief information security officer, Guy Rosen,
		
00:14:15 --> 00:14:15
			is
		
00:14:16 --> 00:14:17
			former IDF,
		
00:14:18 --> 00:14:20
			was former 82100, which is the same people
		
00:14:20 --> 00:14:23
			that built Lavender, Israeli NSA.
		
00:14:23 --> 00:14:24
			He lives in Israel
		
00:14:25 --> 00:14:27
			and lives in Tel Aviv. And this is
		
00:14:27 --> 00:14:30
			the person who has the most power in
		
00:14:30 --> 00:14:31
			deciding at Meta
		
00:14:32 --> 00:14:34
			what conversations are had,
		
00:14:34 --> 00:14:37
			what policies are made about the content that
		
00:14:37 --> 00:14:37
			we're seeing,
		
00:14:39 --> 00:14:39
			and
		
00:14:40 --> 00:14:40
			what
		
00:14:41 --> 00:14:43
			you know, who gets suppressed and and who
		
00:14:43 --> 00:14:45
			doesn't get suppressed. And so everywhere
		
00:14:45 --> 00:14:47
			you look in
		
00:14:48 --> 00:14:50
			Meta, in LinkedIn, in Twitter, in,
		
00:14:53 --> 00:14:54
			in Google,
		
00:14:55 --> 00:14:56
			you are facing
		
00:14:58 --> 00:15:01
			the same sort of of suppression, and it's
		
00:15:01 --> 00:15:03
			the same it's the same story every time.
		
00:15:03 --> 00:15:06
			There's there's people who are extremely pro Israel
		
00:15:06 --> 00:15:09
			in very important positions who are making the
		
00:15:09 --> 00:15:11
			decisions about what content
		
00:15:12 --> 00:15:14
			you and I get to see. And it's
		
00:15:14 --> 00:15:16
			it's in tech, but it's the same thing
		
00:15:16 --> 00:15:18
			that you see in newspapers. It's the same
		
00:15:18 --> 00:15:21
			thing that you see in in CNN and
		
00:15:21 --> 00:15:23
			on Fox News and and on the,
		
00:15:24 --> 00:15:27
			and in international media as well. It's it's
		
00:15:27 --> 00:15:28
			the same thing everywhere.
		
00:15:28 --> 00:15:29
			What do you say
		
00:15:31 --> 00:15:33
			to the idea of making genocide bad for
		
00:15:33 --> 00:15:36
			business? Right? So, like, this idea that, look,
		
00:15:36 --> 00:15:36
			you have,
		
00:15:37 --> 00:15:39
			just from a pure numbers perspective, more people
		
00:15:39 --> 00:15:42
			in the world that use these platforms
		
00:15:42 --> 00:15:43
			that are pro Palestinian
		
00:15:44 --> 00:15:46
			than pro Israel. Right? I mean, in in
		
00:15:46 --> 00:15:48
			the United States, we live in a bubble,
		
00:15:48 --> 00:15:51
			a very carefully crafted genocidal bubble. Right? I
		
00:15:51 --> 00:15:53
			mean, it's it's clear as night and day
		
00:15:53 --> 00:15:56
			for anyone that travels outside of the United
		
00:15:56 --> 00:15:57
			States or
		
00:15:57 --> 00:16:01
			doesn't limit themselves to US media, corporate media,
		
00:16:01 --> 00:16:04
			or talking points from their politicians at every
		
00:16:04 --> 00:16:06
			at every level of government. From just a
		
00:16:06 --> 00:16:08
			business perspective, at what point is it just
		
00:16:08 --> 00:16:10
			bad for business for these companies? Is that
		
00:16:10 --> 00:16:13
			a way forward to make more people around
		
00:16:13 --> 00:16:16
			the world aware and then perhaps to try
		
00:16:16 --> 00:16:16
			to instrumentalize
		
00:16:17 --> 00:16:19
			that people power, that numbers gain
		
00:16:20 --> 00:16:21
			against these companies?
		
00:16:21 --> 00:16:23
			I think that's exactly the way that it
		
00:16:23 --> 00:16:23
			has to go.
		
00:16:24 --> 00:16:27
			It doesn't seem like tech is gonna reform
		
00:16:27 --> 00:16:27
			itself.
		
00:16:29 --> 00:16:30
			In terms of
		
00:16:31 --> 00:16:33
			how the narrative has shifted in the US,
		
00:16:33 --> 00:16:35
			we've seen the narrative shift massively over the
		
00:16:35 --> 00:16:36
			last 6 months,
		
00:16:38 --> 00:16:41
			But tech has been extremely stubborn. And in
		
00:16:41 --> 00:16:43
			fact, I would say is,
		
00:16:43 --> 00:16:44
			is,
		
00:16:44 --> 00:16:46
			you know, one one one of the holdouts
		
00:16:46 --> 00:16:49
			in terms of of narrative shift. You've seen
		
00:16:49 --> 00:16:51
			very little shift at all. When you look
		
00:16:51 --> 00:16:52
			at at
		
00:16:53 --> 00:16:55
			what changed things in South Africa, the the
		
00:16:55 --> 00:16:56
			economic boycott
		
00:16:56 --> 00:16:58
			was one of the
		
00:16:58 --> 00:16:59
			major
		
00:16:59 --> 00:17:01
			aspects of of what caused
		
00:17:02 --> 00:17:05
			apartheid to fall eventually. I don't think that
		
00:17:05 --> 00:17:07
			it's gonna be exactly the same in Israel.
		
00:17:07 --> 00:17:10
			But the economic boycott, the academic boycott, the
		
00:17:10 --> 00:17:13
			sports boycott, the divestment, those are all gonna
		
00:17:13 --> 00:17:14
			be key parts
		
00:17:15 --> 00:17:15
			of,
		
00:17:16 --> 00:17:17
			damaging,
		
00:17:18 --> 00:17:21
			the Israeli economy and and and making
		
00:17:22 --> 00:17:24
			our displeasure felt within Israel,
		
00:17:25 --> 00:17:27
			but also in making it clear to the
		
00:17:27 --> 00:17:30
			United States that you can't keep doing this,
		
00:17:30 --> 00:17:32
			that if you continue to suppress, to shut
		
00:17:32 --> 00:17:33
			down,
		
00:17:33 --> 00:17:36
			to, you know, even to to side with
		
00:17:36 --> 00:17:36
			Israel
		
00:17:37 --> 00:17:39
			or in this case or in in the
		
00:17:39 --> 00:17:42
			most recent case with the block out 2024
		
00:17:42 --> 00:17:43
			campaign,
		
00:17:43 --> 00:17:45
			if you stay quiet during a genocide,
		
00:17:46 --> 00:17:48
			you know, we, as people, are not gonna
		
00:17:48 --> 00:17:51
			continue to support you, and we know, you
		
00:17:51 --> 00:17:53
			know, it's it's America. The place where
		
00:17:54 --> 00:17:56
			we have an effect is with money.
		
00:17:57 --> 00:17:59
			And it's purely for for for these companies.
		
00:18:00 --> 00:18:01
			The only thing that they care about is
		
00:18:01 --> 00:18:03
			is how much money they're gonna make, and
		
00:18:03 --> 00:18:04
			so it becomes
		
00:18:04 --> 00:18:05
			how can
		
00:18:06 --> 00:18:06
			the,
		
00:18:06 --> 00:18:08
			the economics be changed
		
00:18:08 --> 00:18:11
			from continuing to support Israel, which which for
		
00:18:11 --> 00:18:13
			many of them is a,
		
00:18:14 --> 00:18:14
			ideological
		
00:18:15 --> 00:18:17
			interest and not a financial interest.
		
00:18:18 --> 00:18:20
			So as it starts to as it starts
		
00:18:20 --> 00:18:22
			to hurt, there's gonna there's a lot of
		
00:18:22 --> 00:18:24
			people in those organizations who don't have that
		
00:18:24 --> 00:18:27
			ideological interest and who are then saying, why
		
00:18:27 --> 00:18:28
			are we doing this? You know, it's it's
		
00:18:28 --> 00:18:30
			hurting the bottom line.
		
00:18:30 --> 00:18:32
			The reality is is that you've got these
		
00:18:32 --> 00:18:35
			companies that operate that we're all familiar with.
		
00:18:35 --> 00:18:38
			Right? So suppression is happening across the board.
		
00:18:39 --> 00:18:42
			I wouldn't be surprised if Google, YouTube suppressed
		
00:18:42 --> 00:18:44
			this video. They've shadow banned much of our
		
00:18:44 --> 00:18:47
			content on Palestine already. We've been shadow banned
		
00:18:47 --> 00:18:49
			on Meta. We've even TikTok,
		
00:18:50 --> 00:18:50
			x is,
		
00:18:51 --> 00:18:53
			you know, long gone as well. So the
		
00:18:53 --> 00:18:55
			shadow banning, the suppression is all there with
		
00:18:55 --> 00:18:57
			these companies that we're all familiar with, but
		
00:18:57 --> 00:18:59
			then there are names that operate in the
		
00:18:59 --> 00:19:01
			background that I think are even less familiar
		
00:19:01 --> 00:19:02
			to people
		
00:19:02 --> 00:19:05
			than the military contractors. Right? So now people
		
00:19:05 --> 00:19:07
			are kind of starting to become familiar with,
		
00:19:08 --> 00:19:10
			you know, some of the ways that,
		
00:19:10 --> 00:19:13
			Lockheed Martin and Raytheon and, like, you hear
		
00:19:13 --> 00:19:14
			some of these names and and some people
		
00:19:14 --> 00:19:17
			that are not privy to that industry
		
00:19:17 --> 00:19:18
			can catch on a bit.
		
00:19:19 --> 00:19:21
			But when you hear a name like Palantir,
		
00:19:22 --> 00:19:24
			that means nothing to 99.9%
		
00:19:24 --> 00:19:25
			of people.
		
00:19:25 --> 00:19:27
			And they just had a conference
		
00:19:28 --> 00:19:29
			a few weeks ago on,
		
00:19:30 --> 00:19:33
			AI warfare, I guess, the first AI warfare
		
00:19:33 --> 00:19:33
			conference.
		
00:19:34 --> 00:19:36
			And the thought of a bunch of business
		
00:19:36 --> 00:19:38
			executives sitting in a room,
		
00:19:39 --> 00:19:42
			eating their 5 course meals and, you know,
		
00:19:42 --> 00:19:45
			laughing about how they've just developed a new
		
00:19:45 --> 00:19:47
			technology that could eliminate people more efficiently while
		
00:19:47 --> 00:19:49
			still being profit generating
		
00:19:49 --> 00:19:51
			is terrifying to people. But I think that
		
00:19:51 --> 00:19:52
			it's a sign of the moral decay of
		
00:19:52 --> 00:19:54
			society too. Right? Like,
		
00:19:54 --> 00:19:56
			you know, as as the United States sort
		
00:19:56 --> 00:19:59
			of pontificates to the entire world about,
		
00:19:59 --> 00:20:01
			human rights and and and freedom
		
00:20:01 --> 00:20:02
			and,
		
00:20:03 --> 00:20:04
			just
		
00:20:05 --> 00:20:05
			everything
		
00:20:06 --> 00:20:08
			that it stands in complete
		
00:20:08 --> 00:20:09
			contradiction of
		
00:20:11 --> 00:20:13
			as the curtain is kind of being drawn
		
00:20:13 --> 00:20:15
			and the face is being exposed.
		
00:20:15 --> 00:20:17
			How do you start to expose the sick
		
00:20:17 --> 00:20:20
			world of the likes of Palantir,
		
00:20:20 --> 00:20:22
			right, in these conferences? What do you do
		
00:20:22 --> 00:20:23
			to start
		
00:20:24 --> 00:20:26
			sort of shining a spotlight on that so
		
00:20:26 --> 00:20:28
			that people become more aware of the companies
		
00:20:28 --> 00:20:29
			that operate
		
00:20:29 --> 00:20:30
			behind the companies?
		
00:20:31 --> 00:20:33
			The fact is there's nothing we can do
		
00:20:33 --> 00:20:35
			about Palantir, and I think it's it's very
		
00:20:35 --> 00:20:37
			much designed that way in the same way
		
00:20:37 --> 00:20:39
			that there's that there's, you know, nothing we
		
00:20:39 --> 00:20:41
			can directly do about about Lockheed Martin.
		
00:20:42 --> 00:20:43
			Or there's very you know, we can actually
		
00:20:43 --> 00:20:45
			do more about Lockheed Martin because they make
		
00:20:45 --> 00:20:47
			physical products that they need to ship to
		
00:20:47 --> 00:20:49
			places. But when you make
		
00:20:49 --> 00:20:51
			AI that that ships over the Internet, right,
		
00:20:51 --> 00:20:53
			it's it's quite a different,
		
00:20:54 --> 00:20:56
			quite a different experience. You know, one of
		
00:20:56 --> 00:20:58
			the major things that the that we can
		
00:20:58 --> 00:20:59
			do, and this is why I push on
		
00:20:59 --> 00:21:02
			venture capital so much, is that we can
		
00:21:02 --> 00:21:04
			change what company gets fund.
		
00:21:05 --> 00:21:07
			The companies that get funded
		
00:21:08 --> 00:21:09
			at the
		
00:21:09 --> 00:21:10
			very start of the process
		
00:21:11 --> 00:21:13
			are the ones that are decided by a
		
00:21:14 --> 00:21:16
			relatively small group of people that are
		
00:21:17 --> 00:21:18
			very right wing,
		
00:21:19 --> 00:21:20
			folks like Andreessen Horowitz,
		
00:21:21 --> 00:21:24
			Peter Thiel. You know, the the these are
		
00:21:24 --> 00:21:25
			people who
		
00:21:25 --> 00:21:25
			are,
		
00:21:26 --> 00:21:27
			you know, extremely
		
00:21:28 --> 00:21:28
			pro
		
00:21:29 --> 00:21:29
			defense
		
00:21:30 --> 00:21:31
			and war,
		
00:21:32 --> 00:21:33
			and they're
		
00:21:34 --> 00:21:36
			you know, it's it's hard to to
		
00:21:37 --> 00:21:39
			back a society away from that when the
		
00:21:39 --> 00:21:40
			entire
		
00:21:40 --> 00:21:41
			economic engine
		
00:21:42 --> 00:21:44
			of the society is is is based on
		
00:21:44 --> 00:21:46
			that. People make a lot of money for
		
00:21:46 --> 00:21:47
			more.
		
00:21:47 --> 00:21:49
			And the fact that,
		
00:21:49 --> 00:21:51
			you know, we we we moved
		
00:21:51 --> 00:21:53
			a lot of our,
		
00:21:54 --> 00:21:56
			a lot of the the war machine into
		
00:21:56 --> 00:21:59
			the private sector means that the private sector,
		
00:21:59 --> 00:22:01
			you know, has to make money, has to
		
00:22:01 --> 00:22:03
			make more money. You know, they're they're traded
		
00:22:03 --> 00:22:05
			on the stock exchange, and then our,
		
00:22:05 --> 00:22:08
			our pensions get wrapped into it, and our,
		
00:22:08 --> 00:22:11
			you know, public investments and everything
		
00:22:11 --> 00:22:14
			gets pulled into the same system. And then
		
00:22:14 --> 00:22:16
			people start having conversations like, well, if we
		
00:22:16 --> 00:22:18
			divest from Raytheon, the
		
00:22:18 --> 00:22:19
			university
		
00:22:20 --> 00:22:20
			will make,
		
00:22:21 --> 00:22:23
			you know, 9% instead of 10% on its
		
00:22:23 --> 00:22:26
			investments this year, and then the poor students
		
00:22:26 --> 00:22:27
			won't have won't have funding,
		
00:22:28 --> 00:22:30
			for for their for their activities. And, you
		
00:22:30 --> 00:22:32
			know, we we we don't wanna deprive the
		
00:22:32 --> 00:22:34
			students, do we? You know, we have here
		
00:22:34 --> 00:22:36
			in Dallas, we have, General Dynamics, which is
		
00:22:36 --> 00:22:39
			one of the weapons manufacturers. It's literally right
		
00:22:39 --> 00:22:39
			next door
		
00:22:40 --> 00:22:41
			to UTD,
		
00:22:42 --> 00:22:43
			which has stock in it, and it's just
		
00:22:43 --> 00:22:45
			crazy to think about that process. Right? It's
		
00:22:45 --> 00:22:47
			like, you know, we we're gonna need to
		
00:22:47 --> 00:22:49
			continue to blow up university so that you
		
00:22:49 --> 00:22:51
			can have a better gym. Right? It's, you
		
00:22:51 --> 00:22:53
			know, the it is it's a matter of
		
00:22:53 --> 00:22:55
			1% or 2% in the in in the
		
00:22:55 --> 00:22:57
			stock exchange or in the investment in in
		
00:22:57 --> 00:23:00
			the ROI. In tech, you you you have
		
00:23:00 --> 00:23:02
			that that exact same thing that people people
		
00:23:02 --> 00:23:04
			talk about, you know, making the world a
		
00:23:04 --> 00:23:06
			better place. They're they're, you know, we're building
		
00:23:06 --> 00:23:09
			the the future. We're building the the companies
		
00:23:09 --> 00:23:11
			that are gonna change the future. They're gonna
		
00:23:11 --> 00:23:12
			change our lives.
		
00:23:12 --> 00:23:14
			And a lot of these companies are gonna
		
00:23:14 --> 00:23:16
			change our lives in extremely negative ways.
		
00:23:17 --> 00:23:18
			And, you know, even,
		
00:23:18 --> 00:23:21
			you know, even looking past, they're gonna blow
		
00:23:21 --> 00:23:24
			up our homes or they're gonna militarize the
		
00:23:24 --> 00:23:25
			police or they're gonna,
		
00:23:26 --> 00:23:27
			you know, have have,
		
00:23:28 --> 00:23:30
			AI checking on us and and,
		
00:23:31 --> 00:23:31
			you know,
		
00:23:32 --> 00:23:33
			you you you you take it back to
		
00:23:33 --> 00:23:35
			what has actually happened and what tech has
		
00:23:35 --> 00:23:38
			actually done for us so far. They've destroyed
		
00:23:38 --> 00:23:39
			our our attention,
		
00:23:40 --> 00:23:43
			you know, the the dopamine economy of of
		
00:23:43 --> 00:23:46
			the social media networks. They've created this this
		
00:23:46 --> 00:23:48
			gig economy where where people don't have good
		
00:23:48 --> 00:23:50
			jobs anymore, and people are, you know, stringing
		
00:23:50 --> 00:23:53
			2 or 3 jobs together in order to
		
00:23:53 --> 00:23:55
			be able to to to make their rent,
		
00:23:55 --> 00:23:55
			the,
		
00:23:57 --> 00:24:01
			they're they're working with landlords to to collude,
		
00:24:01 --> 00:24:03
			to drive rent prices up. You know, the
		
00:24:03 --> 00:24:05
			the the kind of things that that tech
		
00:24:05 --> 00:24:07
			have done for the world have not been
		
00:24:07 --> 00:24:08
			extremely positive for us,
		
00:24:09 --> 00:24:11
			even when they do the things that they
		
00:24:11 --> 00:24:13
			say are supposed to be positive for us.
		
00:24:13 --> 00:24:14
			There's an interesting question,
		
00:24:16 --> 00:24:17
			that I've personally been asked. So I'm I'm
		
00:24:17 --> 00:24:19
			sure you know many good people that work
		
00:24:19 --> 00:24:22
			at these tech companies. I personally know many
		
00:24:22 --> 00:24:24
			good people that work at Google,
		
00:24:24 --> 00:24:26
			Muslims and otherwise. Right? Palestinians
		
00:24:27 --> 00:24:29
			that work at these companies, and they've tried
		
00:24:29 --> 00:24:30
			to make change
		
00:24:30 --> 00:24:33
			from within. And they kinda have this moral
		
00:24:33 --> 00:24:35
			conundrum. Right? You've got, like, if you think
		
00:24:35 --> 00:24:37
			about it in the government sense, right, you've
		
00:24:37 --> 00:24:39
			got people that still talk about how far
		
00:24:39 --> 00:24:41
			should we engage, which politician should we engage,
		
00:24:41 --> 00:24:43
			how much do we engage the system versus
		
00:24:43 --> 00:24:44
			fighting the system. And,
		
00:24:45 --> 00:24:46
			you know, you've seen a number of people
		
00:24:46 --> 00:24:49
			resign from this particular administration, the Biden administration,
		
00:24:49 --> 00:24:52
			which has proven to be the worst manifestation
		
00:24:52 --> 00:24:54
			of everything that Donald Trump would express, right,
		
00:24:54 --> 00:24:55
			in regards to,
		
00:24:56 --> 00:24:56
			Palestine.
		
00:24:57 --> 00:24:58
			What do you kind of say to people
		
00:24:58 --> 00:24:59
			that work in tech? I mean, I get
		
00:24:59 --> 00:25:01
			asked this question regularly as an Imam. Right?
		
00:25:01 --> 00:25:03
			People come to me with the faith crisis
		
00:25:03 --> 00:25:05
			of sorts, like, look, I work in these
		
00:25:05 --> 00:25:06
			companies.
		
00:25:06 --> 00:25:08
			I've been trying to move the needle.
		
00:25:08 --> 00:25:10
			I thought I was more important to the
		
00:25:10 --> 00:25:12
			company than I actually am because you see
		
00:25:12 --> 00:25:14
			how many I mean, Google laid off what?
		
00:25:14 --> 00:25:17
			Like, 170 people after those protests, 174 people
		
00:25:17 --> 00:25:19
			in in one strike. I thought I was,
		
00:25:19 --> 00:25:21
			you know, I thought I was in good
		
00:25:21 --> 00:25:23
			standing with the company and that my expression
		
00:25:23 --> 00:25:25
			would mean something, but clearly that hasn't been
		
00:25:25 --> 00:25:28
			the case. Do I continue to stay
		
00:25:28 --> 00:25:30
			and keep pushing,
		
00:25:31 --> 00:25:34
			you know, some sort of ethical boundaries and
		
00:25:34 --> 00:25:35
			what is
		
00:25:35 --> 00:25:36
			inherently unethical?
		
00:25:38 --> 00:25:39
			Do I try to make
		
00:25:39 --> 00:25:41
			the best of the situation,
		
00:25:41 --> 00:25:43
			or do I exit
		
00:25:43 --> 00:25:46
			and fight, from the outside? What what do
		
00:25:46 --> 00:25:47
			you say to young people in tech that
		
00:25:47 --> 00:25:49
			come to you with that moral conundrum?
		
00:25:50 --> 00:25:52
			We need people on the inside as well
		
00:25:52 --> 00:25:52
			as the outside.
		
00:25:53 --> 00:25:53
			I'm
		
00:25:54 --> 00:25:56
			not someone who works very well on the
		
00:25:56 --> 00:25:56
			inside.
		
00:25:57 --> 00:25:58
			I'm
		
00:25:58 --> 00:26:00
			much more likely to to start fires on
		
00:26:00 --> 00:26:01
			the outside.
		
00:26:02 --> 00:26:04
			The it is definitely true that that that
		
00:26:04 --> 00:26:04
			people,
		
00:26:05 --> 00:26:07
			you know, are needed on the inside. It's
		
00:26:07 --> 00:26:09
			a difficult it's a difficult game to play.
		
00:26:09 --> 00:26:10
			It's,
		
00:26:10 --> 00:26:12
			you know, when you start getting that that
		
00:26:12 --> 00:26:13
			tech money,
		
00:26:13 --> 00:26:15
			it's difficult to step away from. You know,
		
00:26:15 --> 00:26:16
			people,
		
00:26:17 --> 00:26:19
			I I I've talked to dozens of people
		
00:26:19 --> 00:26:20
			on the inside and, you know, they they
		
00:26:20 --> 00:26:22
			want to speak up. They they know that
		
00:26:22 --> 00:26:24
			the things that they're working on are harmful.
		
00:26:25 --> 00:26:27
			But they have mortgages, and they have kids
		
00:26:27 --> 00:26:29
			in private schools, and it's it's,
		
00:26:30 --> 00:26:32
			it's a difficult line for people,
		
00:26:33 --> 00:26:35
			and I I I I think that that
		
00:26:35 --> 00:26:36
			a lot of people who
		
00:26:37 --> 00:26:39
			who want to to work on it from
		
00:26:39 --> 00:26:40
			the inside,
		
00:26:42 --> 00:26:44
			I think they end up massively dissatisfied by
		
00:26:44 --> 00:26:45
			their own impact.
		
00:26:46 --> 00:26:48
			But at the same time, it is something
		
00:26:48 --> 00:26:50
			that's needed, and the the the people who
		
00:26:50 --> 00:26:53
			are getting fired for for protesting Google,
		
00:26:54 --> 00:26:56
			the people who are writing open letters,
		
00:26:57 --> 00:26:58
			who are publishing
		
00:26:58 --> 00:26:59
			about
		
00:26:59 --> 00:27:01
			what Meta does internally,
		
00:27:01 --> 00:27:03
			even the people who are talking to me
		
00:27:03 --> 00:27:05
			and giving me you know, telling me the
		
00:27:05 --> 00:27:07
			story about what really happens within these companies
		
00:27:07 --> 00:27:09
			can be massively impactful. And if they're not
		
00:27:09 --> 00:27:10
			there,
		
00:27:11 --> 00:27:11
			then,
		
00:27:12 --> 00:27:14
			you know, then the only people who are
		
00:27:14 --> 00:27:16
			having voices in those rooms
		
00:27:16 --> 00:27:18
			are people who are pro Israel. So it
		
00:27:18 --> 00:27:19
			is
		
00:27:20 --> 00:27:20
			absolutely
		
00:27:21 --> 00:27:21
			necessary,
		
00:27:23 --> 00:27:24
			but I think it is also
		
00:27:26 --> 00:27:28
			yeah. I can I can only imagine the
		
00:27:28 --> 00:27:30
			toll that it takes on them? And, I
		
00:27:30 --> 00:27:32
			mean, some of those people, frankly, are are
		
00:27:32 --> 00:27:33
			are there.
		
00:27:33 --> 00:27:35
			And what's keeping them there is not just,
		
00:27:35 --> 00:27:37
			you know, and I'm sure you know this
		
00:27:37 --> 00:27:38
			obviously. And
		
00:27:38 --> 00:27:39
			it's not just the mortgage. It's not just
		
00:27:40 --> 00:27:41
			it's it's actually that they feel like this
		
00:27:41 --> 00:27:43
			is the best way they can make change.
		
00:27:43 --> 00:27:44
			And they usually do,
		
00:27:46 --> 00:27:48
			after a few small wins, suffer a massive
		
00:27:48 --> 00:27:51
			loss, and they wonder about themselves. And, you
		
00:27:51 --> 00:27:52
			know, my advice to them has been along
		
00:27:52 --> 00:27:55
			similar lines. Right? Look. I mean, we need
		
00:27:55 --> 00:27:56
			people there.
		
00:27:57 --> 00:27:59
			You know, obviously, continue to be principled, continue
		
00:27:59 --> 00:28:02
			to be unambiguous about where you stand, continue
		
00:28:02 --> 00:28:03
			to try to push the needle,
		
00:28:04 --> 00:28:06
			and to be wise and to be calculated,
		
00:28:06 --> 00:28:08
			but never to to
		
00:28:09 --> 00:28:11
			to never forsake your courage or your conscience
		
00:28:11 --> 00:28:13
			in the process of that. And it's a
		
00:28:13 --> 00:28:15
			it's a rough conversation even from I mean,
		
00:28:15 --> 00:28:16
			I come to it from a pastoral perspective.
		
00:28:16 --> 00:28:17
			Right? Like,
		
00:28:18 --> 00:28:20
			look, you're doing the right thing, I hope,
		
00:28:20 --> 00:28:22
			based upon what you're saying to me. But,
		
00:28:23 --> 00:28:24
			you know, at the same time,
		
00:28:25 --> 00:28:27
			we need people on the outside as well.
		
00:28:27 --> 00:28:29
			What does the outside look like? You started
		
00:28:29 --> 00:28:30
			Tech for Palestine.
		
00:28:31 --> 00:28:33
			There is a group,
		
00:28:33 --> 00:28:35
			no tech for apartheid, which is not the
		
00:28:35 --> 00:28:37
			same thing as tech for Palestine for those
		
00:28:37 --> 00:28:38
			that might be wondering.
		
00:28:38 --> 00:28:41
			Right? What does the outside look like for
		
00:28:41 --> 00:28:42
			someone that works in tech, and how can
		
00:28:42 --> 00:28:45
			they be effective on the outside if that's
		
00:28:45 --> 00:28:46
			the if that's the route that they choose?
		
00:28:47 --> 00:28:49
			So, fundamentally, tech is a sort of a
		
00:28:49 --> 00:28:51
			a way of thinking about the world.
		
00:28:51 --> 00:28:53
			The there there is the industry, and there's
		
00:28:53 --> 00:28:55
			there's an awful lot that people can do
		
00:28:56 --> 00:28:58
			to call out what's happening in the industry,
		
00:28:58 --> 00:29:00
			but it's also a place where
		
00:29:00 --> 00:29:01
			you can build
		
00:29:01 --> 00:29:02
			tech projects
		
00:29:03 --> 00:29:05
			that actually help change things. So for example,
		
00:29:06 --> 00:29:07
			I was on the I was on a
		
00:29:07 --> 00:29:09
			call earlier with people who are working on
		
00:29:09 --> 00:29:10
			this blockade 20 24 thing
		
00:29:11 --> 00:29:14
			where, you know, they're they're they're helping influencers
		
00:29:14 --> 00:29:16
			feel the the pain of not having spoken
		
00:29:16 --> 00:29:19
			out for for Palestine, and they're helping automate
		
00:29:19 --> 00:29:20
			that. You know, people are going out and
		
00:29:20 --> 00:29:23
			they're unfollowing Kim Kardashian 1 at a time,
		
00:29:24 --> 00:29:25
			and there's people out there who are building
		
00:29:25 --> 00:29:27
			software to allow people to
		
00:29:27 --> 00:29:28
			unfollow
		
00:29:28 --> 00:29:29
			1,000,
		
00:29:29 --> 00:29:31
			you know, 100 of 1,000 of of these
		
00:29:31 --> 00:29:32
			influencers
		
00:29:32 --> 00:29:34
			for for not speaking up. So it's it's
		
00:29:34 --> 00:29:35
			a thing where
		
00:29:38 --> 00:29:39
			where where people can have
		
00:29:40 --> 00:29:41
			impact, the same,
		
00:29:42 --> 00:29:44
			type of impact that makes tech a lucrative
		
00:29:45 --> 00:29:45
			industry
		
00:29:46 --> 00:29:48
			for you know, because of because of automation,
		
00:29:48 --> 00:29:51
			because of AI. All these things can be
		
00:29:51 --> 00:29:52
			can be used to
		
00:29:52 --> 00:29:54
			to help Palestine and to fight against the
		
00:29:54 --> 00:29:57
			system at the same time. So with that
		
00:29:57 --> 00:29:59
			being said, what can the person who is
		
00:29:59 --> 00:30:01
			not in tech do? You know, you've got
		
00:30:01 --> 00:30:02
			thousands of people watching this.
		
00:30:03 --> 00:30:04
			How do they get involved?
		
00:30:04 --> 00:30:06
			Where's the hope in all of this? I
		
00:30:06 --> 00:30:08
			mean, obviously, we've all been
		
00:30:08 --> 00:30:10
			you know, you write that you can't sleep.
		
00:30:10 --> 00:30:11
			None of us have been able to sleep.
		
00:30:11 --> 00:30:13
			Right? Anyone with a moral conscience,
		
00:30:14 --> 00:30:16
			immediately resonates with the words that you wrote,
		
00:30:17 --> 00:30:18
			and they're looking for
		
00:30:18 --> 00:30:20
			a silver lining. I mean, it's hard to
		
00:30:20 --> 00:30:22
			say silver lining in the midst of a
		
00:30:22 --> 00:30:23
			genocide, but how do
		
00:30:24 --> 00:30:26
			we get involved? How can the average person
		
00:30:26 --> 00:30:29
			be more conscious with what they purchase, with
		
00:30:29 --> 00:30:30
			what they consume,
		
00:30:30 --> 00:30:32
			how they use their time, how they involve
		
00:30:32 --> 00:30:34
			something that is so foreign to them being
		
00:30:34 --> 00:30:35
			tech, right, when they're not when they're not
		
00:30:35 --> 00:30:37
			in that world? I I think the main
		
00:30:37 --> 00:30:38
			thing that,
		
00:30:40 --> 00:30:42
			that that affects people and makes them think
		
00:30:42 --> 00:30:44
			that they're that they're not able to do
		
00:30:44 --> 00:30:44
			anything
		
00:30:45 --> 00:30:45
			is
		
00:30:46 --> 00:30:48
			that there's so much going on, and they
		
00:30:48 --> 00:30:50
			see so many things that that they they
		
00:30:50 --> 00:30:52
			feel overwhelmed and and helpless.
		
00:30:53 --> 00:30:54
			And I think that that
		
00:30:55 --> 00:30:56
			if people do wanna get involved,
		
00:30:57 --> 00:30:59
			pick one thing that comes by,
		
00:31:00 --> 00:31:02
			that that you see come past you and
		
00:31:02 --> 00:31:05
			figure out how you can get more involved
		
00:31:05 --> 00:31:06
			in that. So for example,
		
00:31:08 --> 00:31:10
			you see things about Israel bonds sometimes.
		
00:31:11 --> 00:31:14
			Israel bonds is is a thing where,
		
00:31:14 --> 00:31:17
			people actually invest. And when I say people,
		
00:31:17 --> 00:31:17
			I mean,
		
00:31:17 --> 00:31:18
			often
		
00:31:19 --> 00:31:21
			cities, municipalities,
		
00:31:21 --> 00:31:22
			large companies,
		
00:31:23 --> 00:31:26
			invest in Israel bonds in order to support
		
00:31:26 --> 00:31:28
			the Israeli economy and also to to make
		
00:31:28 --> 00:31:29
			money because they're in investments.
		
00:31:30 --> 00:31:31
			This is something that they can start to
		
00:31:31 --> 00:31:32
			investigate
		
00:31:32 --> 00:31:34
			in their locality,
		
00:31:34 --> 00:31:36
			in what time you're in. Is there is
		
00:31:36 --> 00:31:38
			there an investment that has been made by
		
00:31:38 --> 00:31:38
			the municipality?
		
00:31:39 --> 00:31:41
			Is there one in your state?
		
00:31:41 --> 00:31:44
			These this information is public. You can do
		
00:31:44 --> 00:31:45
			similar investigations
		
00:31:46 --> 00:31:47
			on your local politicians,
		
00:31:48 --> 00:31:50
			on the companies that that are in your
		
00:31:50 --> 00:31:51
			area.
		
00:31:51 --> 00:31:52
			There's
		
00:31:53 --> 00:31:55
			there's so many facets
		
00:31:55 --> 00:31:58
			to how Israel has this control in the
		
00:31:58 --> 00:32:00
			United States that it actually makes it really
		
00:32:00 --> 00:32:02
			easy to get involved because you just have
		
00:32:02 --> 00:32:04
			to pick one thing that they're doing
		
00:32:04 --> 00:32:06
			and start to spend time on it, find
		
00:32:06 --> 00:32:08
			the other people who are working on it,
		
00:32:09 --> 00:32:11
			and get organized. Have you been able to
		
00:32:11 --> 00:32:12
			work with anyone from Palestine?
		
00:32:13 --> 00:32:14
			Have you been able to take, like, a
		
00:32:14 --> 00:32:17
			young person from Gaza or from Palestine and
		
00:32:17 --> 00:32:18
			sort of train them up, attack
		
00:32:19 --> 00:32:20
			minds from there? I mean, could you share
		
00:32:20 --> 00:32:23
			any stories about that or any particular individual
		
00:32:23 --> 00:32:24
			that maybe stands out to you? So that
		
00:32:25 --> 00:32:27
			that's not the sort of advocacy that we're
		
00:32:27 --> 00:32:28
			doing at the moment.
		
00:32:29 --> 00:32:31
			We are we are very much focused on,
		
00:32:32 --> 00:32:33
			advocacy within the US,
		
00:32:34 --> 00:32:36
			and and and in the west, but an
		
00:32:36 --> 00:32:37
			awful lot of our
		
00:32:40 --> 00:32:42
			volunteers and the people people the people who
		
00:32:42 --> 00:32:44
			who set up Protect for Palestine, the the
		
00:32:44 --> 00:32:46
			25 initial were 80%,
		
00:32:47 --> 00:32:49
			Palestinian, Arab, or Muslim.
		
00:32:49 --> 00:32:52
			So it's a very, you know, very heavy
		
00:32:52 --> 00:32:55
			involvement in it. The the funny thing about,
		
00:32:55 --> 00:32:56
			you know, about asking about,
		
00:32:57 --> 00:32:58
			you know, helping Palestinians
		
00:32:59 --> 00:33:00
			get technical
		
00:33:00 --> 00:33:04
			is that Palestine is incredibly heavy heavily technical.
		
00:33:05 --> 00:33:08
			The there is a huge number of engineers,
		
00:33:09 --> 00:33:11
			software engineers in particular in Palestine.
		
00:33:12 --> 00:33:13
			As as you know, it's, you know, an
		
00:33:13 --> 00:33:15
			incredibly well educated,
		
00:33:15 --> 00:33:18
			workforce and and population, and a lot of
		
00:33:18 --> 00:33:21
			that is within tech and within within software
		
00:33:21 --> 00:33:22
			engineering.
		
00:33:22 --> 00:33:25
			You know, you're Irish, which is, obviously,
		
00:33:26 --> 00:33:27
			something that
		
00:33:27 --> 00:33:30
			in some ways has to be formative to
		
00:33:30 --> 00:33:31
			the way that you kinda enter into this
		
00:33:31 --> 00:33:32
			arena. You know, I had the pleasure of
		
00:33:32 --> 00:33:35
			going to Ireland, to Dublin, in fact,
		
00:33:35 --> 00:33:36
			you know, back in February,
		
00:33:37 --> 00:33:39
			And I was absolutely blown away by the
		
00:33:39 --> 00:33:39
			solidarity,
		
00:33:40 --> 00:33:43
			of the Irish people with Palestine. It's something
		
00:33:43 --> 00:33:44
			you hear about. It's something you you you
		
00:33:44 --> 00:33:47
			see, but it's another thing to experience that.
		
00:33:47 --> 00:33:50
			And it was absolutely overwhelming. I think that
		
00:33:50 --> 00:33:51
			the experience
		
00:33:52 --> 00:33:53
			of Palestinian solidarity,
		
00:33:54 --> 00:33:56
			finding that within our allies,
		
00:33:58 --> 00:34:00
			this time around, as ugly as the genocide
		
00:34:00 --> 00:34:01
			has been,
		
00:34:02 --> 00:34:04
			as refreshing as the breath of the allyship
		
00:34:04 --> 00:34:07
			has been. We're seeing, obviously, Ireland and South
		
00:34:07 --> 00:34:09
			Africa, but if you go to any encampment,
		
00:34:09 --> 00:34:11
			you see a pretty large Jewish presence.
		
00:34:12 --> 00:34:14
			You see a large presence of people across
		
00:34:14 --> 00:34:16
			the board, Black Palestine solidarity.
		
00:34:17 --> 00:34:18
			Do you see any hope,
		
00:34:19 --> 00:34:21
			you know, in in sort of the breadth
		
00:34:21 --> 00:34:23
			of the pro Palestine movement now and the
		
00:34:23 --> 00:34:26
			broadening of the pro Palestine movement? Is that
		
00:34:26 --> 00:34:27
			something that gives you
		
00:34:28 --> 00:34:31
			hope in particular? Absolutely. And I feel that
		
00:34:31 --> 00:34:32
			that it's barely even started.
		
00:34:34 --> 00:34:36
			You know, we're we're seeing this in the
		
00:34:36 --> 00:34:36
			incumbents.
		
00:34:37 --> 00:34:37
			But
		
00:34:38 --> 00:34:41
			the vast majority of the people in America,
		
00:34:41 --> 00:34:42
			for example,
		
00:34:42 --> 00:34:44
			are are not aware of the other side
		
00:34:44 --> 00:34:47
			of narrative. They've only gotten what they've been
		
00:34:47 --> 00:34:47
			fed
		
00:34:47 --> 00:34:48
			for for decades.
		
00:34:49 --> 00:34:52
			The, you know, the the anti Arab sentiment
		
00:34:52 --> 00:34:53
			and and Islamophobia
		
00:34:53 --> 00:34:55
			after 911, for example,
		
00:34:56 --> 00:34:57
			they
		
00:34:58 --> 00:35:00
			have very much been only fed the idea
		
00:35:00 --> 00:35:02
			of Israel as our ally. Israel is the
		
00:35:02 --> 00:35:04
			only democracy in the Middle East. We need
		
00:35:04 --> 00:35:06
			to support them. We need to keep sending
		
00:35:06 --> 00:35:07
			money their way.
		
00:35:08 --> 00:35:10
			That's that's the narrative they've been fed. And
		
00:35:10 --> 00:35:13
			as, you know, Gen z, in particular, starts
		
00:35:13 --> 00:35:14
			to
		
00:35:15 --> 00:35:17
			starts to ask questions, they learn very quickly
		
00:35:17 --> 00:35:19
			that that they're being lied to. And so
		
00:35:19 --> 00:35:20
			when you see that
		
00:35:21 --> 00:35:24
			narrative break open as we are seeing now,
		
00:35:24 --> 00:35:26
			And, you know, it is it is mainstream
		
00:35:26 --> 00:35:27
			questioning
		
00:35:28 --> 00:35:30
			our alliance with Israel is mainstream,
		
00:35:32 --> 00:35:34
			Questioning whether we should be bombing children in
		
00:35:34 --> 00:35:36
			Gaza and in particular,
		
00:35:36 --> 00:35:38
			whether we should be spending our money on
		
00:35:38 --> 00:35:40
			that instead of health care is is,
		
00:35:41 --> 00:35:43
			you know, we're we're still at the at
		
00:35:43 --> 00:35:46
			the very start of of that movement for
		
00:35:46 --> 00:35:48
			that that to become pervasive within the US.
		
00:35:48 --> 00:35:49
			And
		
00:35:49 --> 00:35:50
			the amount of supporters
		
00:35:51 --> 00:35:51
			that,
		
00:35:53 --> 00:35:56
			that Israel has is actually incredibly low. The
		
00:35:56 --> 00:35:59
			diehard Zionists in in in the US, I
		
00:35:59 --> 00:36:01
			think, you probably have
		
00:36:02 --> 00:36:02
			3,000,000
		
00:36:03 --> 00:36:06
			Jewish Zionists, maybe 10,000,000 Christian Zionists. It's, you
		
00:36:06 --> 00:36:08
			know, it's it's not a,
		
00:36:09 --> 00:36:09
			representative
		
00:36:10 --> 00:36:12
			of a very large portion of the United
		
00:36:12 --> 00:36:13
			States at all. It's just in
		
00:36:14 --> 00:36:17
			pretty powerful positions like the ADL, like APAC,
		
00:36:18 --> 00:36:19
			like the tech companies.
		
00:36:20 --> 00:36:21
			And as the broader
		
00:36:23 --> 00:36:24
			population
		
00:36:25 --> 00:36:25
			learns
		
00:36:26 --> 00:36:27
			as they are learning,
		
00:36:29 --> 00:36:30
			then it's it's
		
00:36:30 --> 00:36:32
			dramatically gonna change things. And you can see
		
00:36:32 --> 00:36:33
			this in
		
00:36:33 --> 00:36:36
			the in how heavy the suppression is coming
		
00:36:36 --> 00:36:38
			down. The the students are being attacked by
		
00:36:38 --> 00:36:41
			power military police. They're being beaten.
		
00:36:41 --> 00:36:42
			TikTok
		
00:36:42 --> 00:36:44
			is being banned because
		
00:36:45 --> 00:36:46
			and and they have, you know, Mitt Romney
		
00:36:46 --> 00:36:49
			and Anthony Blinken sat down in Arizona to
		
00:36:49 --> 00:36:51
			tell us why that was, and it's because
		
00:36:51 --> 00:36:53
			there were pro Palestinian voices on it.
		
00:36:54 --> 00:36:56
			The suppression that we're seeing
		
00:36:57 --> 00:36:57
			is
		
00:36:58 --> 00:37:01
			because it it it has the potential to
		
00:37:01 --> 00:37:03
			bring down the whole system, frankly,
		
00:37:04 --> 00:37:07
			and they are terrified. And that terror is
		
00:37:07 --> 00:37:07
			because
		
00:37:07 --> 00:37:09
			as people learn what's happening,
		
00:37:10 --> 00:37:13
			they immediately say, that's not right. Why are
		
00:37:13 --> 00:37:15
			we supporting that? So I wanna ask you
		
00:37:15 --> 00:37:17
			a deeply personal question that you probably won't
		
00:37:17 --> 00:37:20
			be asked on any, podcast or in any
		
00:37:20 --> 00:37:20
			interview.
		
00:37:22 --> 00:37:24
			But, you know, one of the things that
		
00:37:24 --> 00:37:25
			many have spoken about
		
00:37:26 --> 00:37:28
			not being Palestinian, not being Muslim, is that
		
00:37:28 --> 00:37:30
			as horrified as they are
		
00:37:31 --> 00:37:34
			by the genocide and our complicity in the
		
00:37:34 --> 00:37:34
			genocide,
		
00:37:35 --> 00:37:37
			they're also inspired by the resilience of the
		
00:37:37 --> 00:37:40
			Palestinian people, and perhaps they see their faith,
		
00:37:40 --> 00:37:41
			their
		
00:37:41 --> 00:37:44
			courage as being generated by something deeper.
		
00:37:45 --> 00:37:47
			What have you as Paul Bigger? What have
		
00:37:47 --> 00:37:49
			you kind of learned about the Palestinian people,
		
00:37:49 --> 00:37:51
			maybe even about Islam as a faith,
		
00:37:51 --> 00:37:54
			by watching the resilience of the Palestinian people?
		
00:37:54 --> 00:37:56
			How does that kinda factor into your own
		
00:37:56 --> 00:37:58
			ability to take on
		
00:37:58 --> 00:38:00
			these companies and,
		
00:38:01 --> 00:38:02
			to take this path that you've taken? Oh,
		
00:38:02 --> 00:38:04
			that's an interesting question.
		
00:38:06 --> 00:38:06
			The
		
00:38:07 --> 00:38:08
			you know, I'll I'll I'll say that that
		
00:38:08 --> 00:38:11
			that I knew very little about, about Palestine
		
00:38:11 --> 00:38:13
			and very little about Islam when,
		
00:38:14 --> 00:38:16
			when I started my journey, and I think
		
00:38:16 --> 00:38:17
			that
		
00:38:17 --> 00:38:18
			the,
		
00:38:19 --> 00:38:21
			probably the narrative that I had was was
		
00:38:21 --> 00:38:23
			one that was fed by the the same
		
00:38:24 --> 00:38:26
			US system that's very,
		
00:38:26 --> 00:38:27
			Islamophobic.
		
00:38:27 --> 00:38:29
			Then it's been really interesting to see,
		
00:38:30 --> 00:38:30
			you know,
		
00:38:31 --> 00:38:31
			how peaceful
		
00:38:32 --> 00:38:34
			Islam is. That was
		
00:38:35 --> 00:38:36
			not something that I've been led to believe
		
00:38:36 --> 00:38:37
			my entire life. And,
		
00:38:38 --> 00:38:39
			you know, as we,
		
00:38:40 --> 00:38:42
			as we're breaking down the narrative, so we're
		
00:38:42 --> 00:38:44
			breaking down, you know, some of ours as
		
00:38:44 --> 00:38:45
			well. And
		
00:38:46 --> 00:38:47
			it seems extremely
		
00:38:48 --> 00:38:48
			important
		
00:38:48 --> 00:38:50
			to how the Palestinians,
		
00:38:51 --> 00:38:52
			you know, the people undergoing
		
00:38:53 --> 00:38:55
			the the bombing in in Gaza, how they
		
00:38:55 --> 00:38:57
			they they continue their lives. It's, you know,
		
00:38:57 --> 00:38:58
			as a as a,
		
00:38:59 --> 00:39:01
			not quite lifelong, but but, you know, most
		
00:39:01 --> 00:39:02
			of my life atheist.
		
00:39:03 --> 00:39:05
			It's it's certainly an an interesting
		
00:39:05 --> 00:39:07
			lesson in how people can apply it,
		
00:39:07 --> 00:39:09
			can apply religion positively.
		
00:39:09 --> 00:39:11
			I come from a country that is
		
00:39:13 --> 00:39:16
			removing itself from a multi 100 year,
		
00:39:17 --> 00:39:19
			suppression by the Catholic church.
		
00:39:20 --> 00:39:23
			And so it's, you know, I've always been
		
00:39:23 --> 00:39:24
			in my life going in the other direction,
		
00:39:24 --> 00:39:25
			so it's it's very interesting to see people
		
00:39:25 --> 00:39:28
			who are applying religion very positively.
		
00:39:28 --> 00:39:30
			So 5, 10 years from now, let's let's
		
00:39:30 --> 00:39:32
			take 10 years from now, and I'll kinda
		
00:39:32 --> 00:39:33
			conclude with this.
		
00:39:34 --> 00:39:36
			If you were to kinda look back 10
		
00:39:36 --> 00:39:38
			years from now and say you succeeded,
		
00:39:39 --> 00:39:40
			we
		
00:39:40 --> 00:39:41
			have succeeded,
		
00:39:42 --> 00:39:44
			what does success look like in 10 years,
		
00:39:45 --> 00:39:47
			you know, considering just how overwhelming
		
00:39:48 --> 00:39:49
			and how far gone this all seems? Like,
		
00:39:49 --> 00:39:51
			what do you what do you hope this
		
00:39:51 --> 00:39:53
			conversation looks like in 10 years,
		
00:39:54 --> 00:39:57
			between between you and I and and perhaps
		
00:39:57 --> 00:39:59
			you and and others that have, embarked upon
		
00:39:59 --> 00:40:00
			this mission
		
00:40:01 --> 00:40:01
			to,
		
00:40:02 --> 00:40:04
			reign in tech? I mean, I I I
		
00:40:04 --> 00:40:05
			think fundamentally,
		
00:40:05 --> 00:40:06
			our our mission,
		
00:40:07 --> 00:40:09
			the the mission of all of us in
		
00:40:09 --> 00:40:11
			this are are is to reign in
		
00:40:12 --> 00:40:14
			quite a lot of the the system. Right?
		
00:40:14 --> 00:40:16
			We're we're trying to rein in tech. We're
		
00:40:16 --> 00:40:17
			trying to rein in the US. We're trying
		
00:40:17 --> 00:40:19
			to rein in Zionism, trying to rein in
		
00:40:19 --> 00:40:21
			Israel, of course. If we have succeeded
		
00:40:21 --> 00:40:24
			in in 10 years, then then things will,
		
00:40:24 --> 00:40:26
			you know, have the potential to look dramatically
		
00:40:26 --> 00:40:26
			different.
		
00:40:27 --> 00:40:30
			A free Palestine, obviously, being 1, but one
		
00:40:30 --> 00:40:33
			where a lot of power is is pulled
		
00:40:33 --> 00:40:34
			out of tech and in particular pulled out
		
00:40:34 --> 00:40:36
			of big tech where they no longer have
		
00:40:36 --> 00:40:37
			power
		
00:40:37 --> 00:40:41
			to suppress content because it's it's politically advantageous
		
00:40:41 --> 00:40:41
			to them.
		
00:40:42 --> 00:40:43
			One where,
		
00:40:44 --> 00:40:47
			the war machine is not promoted and not
		
00:40:47 --> 00:40:47
			funded,
		
00:40:48 --> 00:40:50
			and one, you know, ultimately, where where
		
00:40:51 --> 00:40:53
			where workers in,
		
00:40:53 --> 00:40:56
			in tech have a lot more power to,
		
00:40:56 --> 00:40:57
			to effect change,
		
00:40:58 --> 00:40:59
			from the bottom.
		
00:41:00 --> 00:41:01
			And where that's true of the United States
		
00:41:01 --> 00:41:05
			in general, where where the actual people who
		
00:41:05 --> 00:41:05
			are
		
00:41:07 --> 00:41:07
			dramatically
		
00:41:08 --> 00:41:11
			pro ceasefire, who are dramatically against bombing, who
		
00:41:11 --> 00:41:14
			are dramatically against funding Israel, are are listened
		
00:41:14 --> 00:41:15
			to in not only
		
00:41:16 --> 00:41:18
			Middle Eastern foreign policy decisions,
		
00:41:19 --> 00:41:21
			but also in the broad range of things
		
00:41:21 --> 00:41:24
			in which we are ignored and in which
		
00:41:24 --> 00:41:26
			the the US system doesn't work to serve
		
00:41:26 --> 00:41:27
			us.
		
00:41:27 --> 00:41:29
			Paul, thank you so much for
		
00:41:30 --> 00:41:31
			all that you've done and all that you
		
00:41:31 --> 00:41:33
			continue to do and for taking the time
		
00:41:33 --> 00:41:34
			out to be with us and to share
		
00:41:34 --> 00:41:35
			your insights,
		
00:41:36 --> 00:41:37
			to expose us to,
		
00:41:38 --> 00:41:40
			you know, what what we are deeply unfamiliar
		
00:41:40 --> 00:41:41
			with
		
00:41:41 --> 00:41:43
			at the process level, but, unfortunately, have been
		
00:41:43 --> 00:41:45
			seeing at the outcome level. Thank you for
		
00:41:45 --> 00:41:47
			your conscience, and, thank you for your solidarity.
		
00:41:48 --> 00:41:50
			And we look forward to having you on
		
00:41:50 --> 00:41:53
			once again and continuing to struggle alongside you.
		
00:41:53 --> 00:41:54
			Thank you so much for having me.