Naima B. Robert – Traditional Muslim Marriage in Modern Times @MuslimSkeptic & Umm Khalid
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Bismillah wa salatu salam ala Rasulillah Assalamu alaykum
everyone welcome to another episode of the conversation with
your sister Nyima, be very excited for today's session. You guys will
never guess who my guest is. But you probably do know who my guest
is because you saw promos, right? Yes. My guest today is none other
than brother Daniel. I kicked you and his wife Alma Khalid, super
honored to have you guys on the platform for marriage and family
and all such things related As Salam aleikum wa rahmatullah heal
better care to
migrate south allied record label center, what a hands on we're very
happy to be here. Very excited. Thank you. Hamdulillah I just want
to take a moment to remind everyone in sha Allah, if it's
your first time being here, then welcome to this space, do make
sure that you take a moment to like the video, subscribe to the
channel, and we want to see those comments. While you are watching
this. We want to see what you're thinking as you go along. So
please do feel free to comment as much as you like below this video
inshallah. Okay, guys, let's get to it. So many of our viewers will
be familiar with the two of you in your own contexts. But for the
purpose of this conversation, could you tell us a little bit
more about who you guys are? As a couple individually and as a
couple? So if you were introducing yourselves for the first time,
what would you tell us?
Sure, I can start I, the founder of Muslim skeptic.com. I also run
an online institute called Elesa. Alaska Institute and been busy
with that for the past, you know, five, six years hunger Allah. And
so that's what I mostly do. But as far as us together, we have been
married for about 14 years. And we met in college. We met in college
and hamdulillah that's lungs interesting story that we can get
into, but how about you? Um, so we learn handler. So like I said,
everyone else will yet.
So yeah, so as an introduction, I basically I help sometimes out a
little bit with the Ellison institute that Daniel was found in
Honolulu, and I write on Facebook, I'm not, you know, on different
platforms on social media, because I don't have that kind of time.
But I am on Facebook, and then some of my posts and articles
there will actually be you can find them on Muslim skeptic.com,
which is the website that Daniel started. And so that's what I do,
I kind of just write here and there on Facebook and things like
that. And usually the topics that I address have to do with my real
life and what I you know, spend most of my time doing, which is
just the addressing topics of marriage, motherhood, Tobia of
children raising children, child rearing, homeschooling, which I
also do I homeschool hamdulillah and actually so I don't know if
people are familiar with this. But one thing that I do also work on
is a homeschooling an Islamic Quranic homeschooling curriculum
for Muslim parents to teach and homeschool their own Muslim
children at home. So that's that's that's kind of what I'm busy with.
And it keeps me very busy by law. Yeah, that's what we do.
Allah and I can imagine that it keeps you very busy. Mashallah,
brother Daniel, you opened the door, and I think we have to go
through the door. Tell us how you guys met at college. We want to
hear this this love.
Yeah, so we're Harvard and Boston, Massachusetts, and I was a
sophomore in college, she was a freshman we just entered and I was
already thinking about you know, I would like to get married. And
this is a period where I was becoming more religiously
conscious, more religiously informed. And I knew that marriage
is something that is half the deen that's something extremely
important. And buy was interested in getting married and unclouded
here was a freshman at the time and so she seemed like a very
mashallah religious sister knowledgeable with you know, good
added basically not like mixing with the opposite *. Not like
you know, doing bad stuff, basically. So, you know, we didn't
have like a friendly relationship. It was just through a distance you
know, and the Muslim Student Association or the masala there's
a prayer space. So, you know, I can
assaulted with knowledgeable brothers and Imam Imams and said,
and my own family and I thought, Well, why don't we go for it? Why
don't we just propose? So that's why I did I proposed when those
spring semester. So she was still a freshman, I guess you had just
turned 19 years old. And I was, like 19 or 20? I think I was 20. I
was 18. You were 19? Yeah. Yeah, but you're no hold on, hold on,
hold on. Wait. My shot Mathematica. I was just as you
were talking, I was thinking about how in the old days
every you find them in college, right? This in the States. It was
like the culture. You know, many girls went to college so I could
find a husband. But the fact that you were 19. Brother, Daniel, were
20. And she was 19. Was anybody in your family? skeptical about that?
Or were they completely on board with the whole idea? Well, her
family was skeptical. So
it was difficult do Yes. At the time. Yes. That was the whole
thing. Well, you didn't even get continue with the story you shall
see.
Now, my family was not skeptical. Or they my family was on board
with the idea, like, at least with the idea of thinking about
marriage, and which is hamdulillah is was nice. You know, I didn't
have any kind of pushback from my own side of the family was great.
Yeah, but I'm convinced. Yeah, that's I want to hear about the
family. Because definitely very different. What did they think of
this? Yeah, it was basically the total opposite. And a lot of it, I
think, now, looking back, it was a lack of exposure, at least for me,
I don't know not for my parents. Obviously, they're older than me
more experienced, it's seen a lot. But I had never seen anyone get
married, as you know, in their first year of undergrad in college
right for me, which would have been my case, and he was only a
second years or a year older than I had never seen that in all my
days in my years, my 18 years. Up until that point, I'd never come
across that. So I just thought it was so foreign. And so bizarre,
and I didn't. And I also have to but you had seen that you had
actually seen people in high school or some of your classmates
were right. Have you seen? No, I thought you've had you got married
young. Yeah. The concept that idea of people marrying young and you
know, have you encountered it before? No. Yeah, like in my own
family, like my own? Yeah, but your family dude, like no one told
me the stories you forget about, like your relatives. And
so some of us are more grounded in our heritage.
Right.
So there's no one more grounded in your hair. Just accepting your
objections. I think that's the bottom line here. Like whatever.
Exactly, exactly. So but, you know, I just, it wasn't anything
that I had seen, so I wasn't used to it. And then the other part
was, I was in my little feminist phase in that in that time of my
life, you know, I like high school. Yes. And my early early
college days, I really thought I was a feminist doesn't Oh, yes,
I'm a feminist. We need men. Men are the worst. So and then this
guy was like, Hello, can we talk about marriage and get away from
me?
Am I a joke to you?
So
I'm sorry
for the audience here, this so this is interesting, because you
obviously were not aware of her feminist leanings, when you saw
this big tomato. Yeah. And you know, this really kind of
respectful girl and mashallah Islamic and not free mixing. So
you wouldn't have known that she had, you know, feminist ideas of
feminist meanings. When did you find out? When did you find out
that she had these ideas? Well, I just gleaned it from one when she
when my proposal was rejected, rudely rudely rejected, I'm
joking, it was not rude, but it was just a rejection. So but I was
under the impression very naively that like, this is the Islamic
thing. You know, in Islam, marriage is very important and why
delay like what's the reason for delaying it? So I had like a very
idealistic, naive understanding. I also didn't fully appreciate the
influence of feminism on Muslim women and I thought that well if
someone is religious, you know wearing
everything right.
aid and memorizing Quran and all of these kinds of good things in
Islam, they're not going to be also influenced by feminism and
say that, well, I'm not gonna get married because I want to be, you
know, changing the world with my PhD and my amazing career. So this
is something that I didn't anticipate, but it was kind of
like a rude awakening that yeah, you can be very influenced by
feminism, and still, in other aspects be a very practicing
Muslim. And that was that's exactly what I saw. I taught you
something. You're welcome.
So that's exactly it that that was the case with me. I was you know,
doing all of these things. hamdulillah only because of the
way I was raised and Allah Subhana Allah Sablon me, so Hamdulillah I
wasn't getting into crazy things. I wasn't one of those raging
feminists who like, you know, with the blue hair and the tattoos and
like the nose ring, like I wasn't, I wasn't that kind of a feminist
like, looking at me just to look at in your view, oh, this is a
practicing Muslim, you know, yeah, but those kinds of basic things
that we all try to follow anyway, I wasn't doing anything special,
but I was not visibly outwardly, what you would think of as a
feminist. But as you said, Then inside in my head in my thoughts,
and my mindset, it was a very, very feminist mindset, which is
basically independence. And not I wasn't seeking independence to go
do anything bad. I was actually very, very attached to my family
and very, like, you know, like chocolate hasn't, you know, like,
oh, I don't know how they're gonna ham. You don't say yes, yes. Yes,
sir. Yes, ma'am. To my parents, like, I wasn't one of those
rebellious kids who was trying to go out and do crazy things, you
know? So it was actually not that, which is a very weird case to
Pamela. Because when you when you knock out all of those things, you
would assume that okay, then this person is just like a normal
Muslim, a traditional inshallah would definitely want to get
married young would definitely say yes to this. But no, that was not
the case. Because even with all of those things, I still wanted those
I still had those feminists are traces are not traces. At that
point, they were like, full on feminist influence, in my, in my
head in my thoughts. So I had these notions of, I'm here at
Harvard at Hamdulillah. Can't believe I'm here. But since I'm
here, I'm gonna I have to save the world, I have to get a big job and
start my career and, you know, you know, pursue my independence, just
to show that I can do what a man can do a man is not better than
you know. And here's this man like proposing marriage. I'm like,
what?
So he wasn't part of the plan. You know?
That is so interesting. And I think even more so we talk about,
you know, how many, many sisters do carry feminist ideas, knowing
it, it's almost like by osmosis, being in the society being
exposed, whether it's the education system, or
entertainment, or just just the cultural context, right? is, you
know, a very, very feminism space. And I think it's so interesting
that even for you how many years ago, you had imbibed the messages,
even though you were practicing, even though you were on D, you had
still imbibed the messages. So okay, so we've got my Chaga,
idealistic Muslim brother, meets what he thinks is his perfect
Muslim, I finds out actually she's a feminist, and she finds his
proposal to be quite insulting, quite frankly. So where did you go
from there? What what happened?
Yeah, so having been spurned, I, you know, refocused on my studies.
And, you know, the years went by, and then
the years the years went by, and but then the way that so I was the
rejection was not from ca that it was through her father, basically,
because I wasn't really talking with on call it, it was through
her father, the communication was through her father. So, her father
said that, you know, his reasoning or he didn't need to give me any
reason. He could have just said no, but he was generous enough to
say that, you know, now, like, you let me off easy basically and
said, It's not you, it's just this it's early and she's young. And he
didn't say like, we'll see you later, but he just said, you know,
you know, this is not the right timing basically. So, me taking
this in the best way possible thought well, okay, if it's now's
not the best time, maybe in a couple of years, it'll be better
timing.
To get literally as opposed to oh, he's just letting me down easy
either. Oh, okay. So you're saying there's a chance.
So then, then I read proposed
Ah, in. I was like two years, two years later. Yeah. And, and then
yeah. And I tried to anticipate, like some of the objections that
had been raised like I'm too young. Also, like, cultures I
wasn't Egyptian was still not Egyptian. But I was definitely
wasn't Egyptian back then. And yeah, just try to be very
prepared. And again, speaking to her father it, you know, it just
went from there. But yeah, Hamdulillah that was,
you know, that's the challenge for a lot of young Muslims getting
married in this day and age is that there's not much precedents
for marrying young, as oncotic mentioned, like she hadn't seen it
before. And that's very natural. If you haven't seen something
before, then you're not sure it can work, and you have a natural
anxiety, skepticism about getting into it. And then,
you know, I don't have that mindset. I just like to okay, if
someone hasn't done it, well, let's be the first. But I can see
like this problem with marriage in general, for Muslims in the West,
there is not that precedents, and you have a lot of parents also who
they want to protect their children. And that's, that's going
to make them less, or, you know, slower to get more hesitant to
accept proposals and to make things happen. So it's causing
this kind of gridlock. I mean, there are other bigger problems,
too, with parents, I'd say like, the whole idea. And this is this
is a big topic of
how much should we push our daughters to prioritize career and
prioritize especially higher education, like going to college
or graduate school, professional school, how much really is that
going to negatively impact our daughters, because they are
focused on that, and they, they don't want even think about
marriage, when they arguably should be getting married, they
should be getting married, because they're in the prime of their
youth, they're in the best, you know, Allah has created human
beings in a certain way, like we are meant to go through life in a
certain kind of natural progression, where you go through
childhood through to adolescence, and then you start having desires,
and then that this is the time for marriage, and your body is telling
you that and that's natural, that's how Allah has created us.
So wire and Islam has made has facilitated that Islam didn't say,
No, you have to be 25 years old minimum with you know, this, these
credentials to get married. Islam hasn't put those kinds of
requirements. So why are we adding those kinds of requirements as, as
you know, in our families or in our communities? That's something
that's making marriage very difficult, the halal very
difficult for youth. And I think that big, you know, the big
component of it really, in my opinion, is this insistence that
Muslim women have to get this certain level of education, this
certain level of career advancement, they have to because,
you know, the what if they get divorced, or what if their husband
dies, or these kinds of scenarios, she needs a safety net? She needs
a safety net, and monster. Yeah. So all of these kinds of stigmas
have been artificially attached to early marriage. But what about all
of the problems that are the potential disasters that can
happen with pushing college and pushing graduate school and career
ism? What if she, you know, falls into Zina? Like whatever? Instead
of talking about the divorce, the potential divorce that you're just
imagining for your daughter? Who gets married early? What if she
goes to college and she falls into Zina, or she gets molested? Or,
you know, she goes into a career and it it ends up being a
nightmare for her many careers are just complete nightmares, or she
leaves Islam or she leaves Islam or these, why don't these
scenarios come to the minds of fathers when they're thinking and
planning for their daughters? Or here's another one too. along the
same vein, Daniel, also what parents what I hear a lot from,
you know, these situations is parents saying my daughter is not
ready. She's not mature enough. She's just not going to be able to
do it. She's young. And we're not talking about like a 16 year old
or 17 year old we're talking about in her 20s But she's only 22 She's
only 23 She's not gonna be able to handle marriage. Like, why are we
in the same vein as why are we talking about the potential for
divorce but now there's potential for Xena in the same way we can
ask Why aren't you? Where's the taboo
Yeah, so you don't rugby your kid or not exactly in the same way
that like, you know you should have maybe not to that, you know
adequate extent that maybe should have been there. And now you're
here just delaying they're saying oh she's not ready Why did you
make her ready? Yeah, she's she's ready to go to college and go
study advanced physics and she's ready for that and but she's not
ready to get married like you've prepared her to be a professional
student or a career woman and you have not prepared her to be a
wife, you have not hired her to be a mother. So that's your that's on
you. You know?
Yeah, I completely agree with with everything you're saying. And I
think it reminds me of another conversation that we had on the in
the series, where we talked about how the pendulum for Muslims
anyway, has has swung almost Asian to one extreme. So I think there
was a time in all Muslim societies, like all traditional
societies, as in non western societies were at, you know, that
trajectory that you described by the Daniel is the natural
progression in every almost every single culture, young people take
responsibility, much earlier for, you know, for for things around
for the for the jobs, for the roles that they will play in the
future. So young girls learn to cook much younger, they look after
younger siblings, for example, you know, their mother will say, Come,
I need to teach you this, you're going to need to do this, when
you're a wife, when you're a mother, and a man would do the
same with boys, you know, they would hand down the skills that
that boy will need in a particular culture in order to be a man. Now
with I think, the move from our home countries to the West as
immigrants, I think the emphasis on having a better life.
And, you know, that's what became, we
came to the UK, they came to
Canada, to give our children
what does that look like, look at education. That is education is a,
you know, any kind of analysis. But now we're in a western
paradigm. It's not just basic education, it's, as you say, it's
unity, it's graduate school, it's getting the very best career that
you can. And you know, a lot of the time I found that from just
anecdotally, from traditional families whose mother knows all
the traditional skills, has all the traditional skills, knows all
that she knows how to do everything she cleans, she cooks,
amazingly, she knows how to look after the family, she says she
hosts she does all the things, but she didn't teach her to her
daughter. Because her daughter, she's like, No, you go and study,
you're going to do this, you're going to become this, you know, I
mean, it's like, you're not going to be me, you're not going to live
my life, you're going to do better than me, you're going to have more
than me. And I think that girls being a,
and really said
in Penn College, if you go away, especially for school, you're in
school to be right and to do your own safe and affairs. So he I have
losing that independence in order to merge with somebody else
husband, and create a home for the collective. It's just not very
attractive.
It's like, no, these are my independent years. This might have
time to do my thing. Societies. But anyway, digressing, just think
that it's a pendulum swing, basically, we used to very, very
conscious about
how to be out of
they
almost be the women that they will be when they're older and raising
boys. Similarly, to mums, you know, don't slip can be a Have you
have you?
Sorry, sorry. We're having trouble hearing you. You're breaking up.
We didn't get your question.
Okay, I think she'll come back and show on
one thing until she comes back. One thing that I thought of just
now is the the other thing about marrying young versus marrying
when you're a little bit older, especially for women, but even for
men. I think it's also like, you're less malleable, like you're
less willing to work together with a man. Then you know when you're
older, right like for a young woman and she gets married at 18
or 20 or 22. It's a very different
mindset that then that the woman comes in with, then if she had, if
she comes into the marriage tries to build something with a man,
when she's 35 or 38, or 41. It's a I mean, you know, and I understand
that, you know, the sounds, you know, it's not the most PC thing
to say, because we don't, we want to protect everyone's feelings.
And I don't mean to sound callous, because the reality is some people
Mishler in they, they can't find someone to get married. And this
is the reality not because of their own doing, they have no
control over the situation, they've been trying to find a
spouse, and they can't, right. So that's, that's the reality for
some of us. But for those of us who have offers and have proposals
coming in, but there's such an emphasis on No, no, I'm trying to
be a doctor, I'm going to be a lawyer, I'm going to be an
accountant, or whatever the career is. And that's my priority. And
then when I'm done with that, when I'm established, then you can come
and try to get married and try to propose to me, and then maybe I'll
say yes, yeah, but at that point, you're 31, or you're 35. And so
it's a very divided.
Why did parents think that it would be easy to marry off their
daughters after graduate school? Like what was happening there?
That's a good question. I think that you have a society that is
emphasizing the value of education to such a degree, that people
forget basic biology, and they forget, you know,
because no matter this idea that culture is just constructed. And
you can just transform the way that people think and behave
however you want, you can mold everyone to behave according to
these feminists, liberal standards. That's just not true.
Like, at the end of the day, we're human beings, we have a biology we
have a psychology that's, that is malleable, but not infinitely
malleable. So the like, you can't change that the fact that women
are at their peak, vitality and youth and fertility at a certain
age, and it's quite young. 1918 This is a and also,
you know, what women themselves are attracted to. So the woman who
goes through college and educational system, she's not
going to be attracted to a man who is less educated than her who is
less successful than her. That's natural. That's biology. And even,
you know, there have been studies with
Western women asking them to identify what are their
preferences in terms of attraction, and even the women who
claim that they're feminists, and they are, you know, card carrying
feminist, they will be attracted to men who are, you know, fit this
kind of toxic stereotype of being like, taller, stronger, more
successful, more rich, someone to look up to?
Yeah, more than that, because they're looking up to get married
to someone who is higher status. And this is natural for women
biologically, but it's often put in terms of men being intimidated,
like men are intimidated to marry the successful PhD lawyer, doctor
career woman, that's it's men's fault. Men are insecure men are
insecure, and over your insecurity. Yeah, exactly. So
that's not really the case. It's the women who are when they reach
a certain level of attainment and this is something that's covered
by I'm sure you're aware of many of the YouTube commentators who
will try to counsel women I mean, one of the most popular is this
guy non Muslim named Kevin Samuels and Kevin Samuels those his
broadcasts he does kind of live broadcasts and it's very
interesting because you have women who have attained all manner of
financial success professional success, they're making six
figures and they anticipate like the only thing that they want that
they say that I need a man who has six foot six figures has a six
pack like this is their standard but that you know that's like 1%
of men or less meet that that standard so you've shot yourself
in the foot as a woman
by you know, reaching this level of career success because most men
are just like me attracted attractive to you.
i It's interesting that even Samuels very familiar with with
Kevin Samuels, but there's a couple of things you know with
what you said.
Ideally, if women if as you say it
Are psychology as malleable or as it as is thought we are as
malleable. Then women who display masculine traits of competition,
of achievement of winning, of making a lot of money of being
providers really and providing very nicely for themselves, with
their six figures in the house, I have my own house, my own car and
everything, which are typically masculine traits, they should be
able to be attracted to a man who has feminine traits, more feminine
traits, right? Firstly, they should be able to understand that
in this relationship, I'm playing the masculine role. I am the
provider, and it's okay. I'm cool with that. But the interesting
thing is that they're not. And that's the thing that is so
strange is that you come to the table and you say, I've got this,
this and this, I've got my education. I've got my masters,
I've got my degree, I've got my house, my own house, you know,
I've got my own car. I've got my own side business and everything I
am, I'm good, right? But then you're still expecting the man to
come with the same, if not better. So even though you're a boss,
babe, you were looking for a boss, dude. Right. And the thing the the
Kevin Samuels conversation for me, I think the most shocking thing
that women have found in that whole conversation that he started
is that men don't care about your financial or career achievements
at all. It doesn't make you more attractive to them. In fact, it
could be putting many people off because of the character traits
that you developed, while you were in pursuit of, you know, the
professional and the, you know, the academic qualifications. And
so you have a whole generation of women, who took so much pride in
looking for these and fighting for these and working so hard at the
bar, you know, like you said, you know, putting in the years, you
know, getting into debt, everything because society told
them like this is this is possible for you, this is what you should
be going for, this will make you successful, this is what will make
you happy. So we've invested so much in that identity, and
invested so much in those achievements, only to come now, to
the time in your life where you want to find a partner, you want
to find a husband, to find that as far as men are concerned, not that
none of that means anything to them. And, you know, in fact, it
may even be something that puts people off. So it's quite a
conundrum. It's quite a between a rock and a hard place. Because I
know that for the women who are listening to this, if we put this
into the Muslim context, just like non Muslim women, Muslim women
will say, Well, if the brothers can't, you know, match us, when it
comes to education and money, the brothers need to step up. But what
you're saying is that nurses you need to step down, or you need to
start thinking about wasn't actually a good idea to step up. I
mean, what's the answer here? What do you guys think? Well, for me,
let me just say this the most amazing thing for me about the
Kevin Samuels conversation is do not over talk me, ma'am.
No, but realistically, that's one of his most favorite or most
common quotes to win over talk me know. But for me, I honestly like
in all seriousness, one thing that I took away from those
conversations that he has, is women's entitlement. I as a woman
had no idea, no idea because although I deal with other women,
I only deal with other women sisters, you know, and I didn't
see. I didn't see it from the men's perspective before ever,
right? So I see everything that I think makes sense in my head, it
makes sense to me. And so I extend the same courtesy and the same
kind of empathy and sympathy to my sisters, right to fellow women. So
I think and then we may have a tendency, we've talked about this
before, Daniel, but we women have a tendency, unlike men who
compete, they compete with one another, they try to outdo one
another women, we compete in our own way. But we are more
cooperative, and we also we, we kind of like, talk to each other
up or we pump each other up. So I'll tell you that you're pretty
because you're going to tell me that I'm pretty, I'll tell you
that you're successful that you're a boss be because you're going to
tell me the same thing. And that's, I want to hear that.
Whether it's true or not, it doesn't matter. So I'll tell you
things like as a fellow woman out if we're friends, I will say you
deserve the best, you deserve nothing but the best. Look, you've
got a PhD you need a man with two PhDs, alright, you're a doctor. He
needs to be like, You need to have done a fellowship in like,
pediatric cardiology, like because you're an internal medicine
doctor, he's got to talk that right and I'm gonna pump you up
like that. And we do that to each other. So these are the
conversations happening among women than women they get go to
the men when they're trying to start these relationships for non
Muslims is there just relationships for us Muslims, it's
marriage. We come to the table and that's what's up here. That's what
I have in my head because all my girlfriends behind me that's why
we talk about how much we deserve how much we we are owed.
By the end owe us these types of things. And the men, as you said,
the big shocker, the big reveal for the Muslim woman is Oh, the
men don't care, you have a Tesla good for you, he doesn't that
actually puts him off, you have your own house, you have your own
townhouse, that puts him off, he doesn't care about it, he's not
impressed. And he doesn't, he's not gonna, you're not more
attractive to him, because of in fact, you're a little bit less
attractive, because now he, you're switching roles, you know, so now
and then you also are now demanding, you're entitled, you
feel like all you need to, you know, do this, this and this, and
bring me this, this and this. So the whole thing, you see how it's
completely out of sync? You know. And I think I would love to just
pass it over to to Daniel, but for the sake of the audience, and for
the sake of the sisters, why is the sister who's got her own, she
looks attractive, what's happening there in the man's mind.
I think you put it very well yourself, when you said that there
are in pursuing career. And pursuing that professional
success. And education, you have to develop certain kinds of traits
of competitiveness, traits of you know, lack of agreeableness,
traits of, you know, being very assertive, and aggressive,
competitive, like those are things that that's the main problem,
personality wise. And then also,
there's just men naturally feel uneasy about their wife or
potential wife, mixing a lot with men, and being around or being in
an environment surrounded by other men. So a professional career
woman who is successful in the kind of material sense of success,
she has to be around a lot of men and working very closely with
other men. And that is a kind of a turn off just viscerally for, for
brothers. General. So I think those are the two factors. Like if
somehow the wife is, you know, his wife is making a lot of bank
making a lot of money, just whether it's from career, or just
inheritance, like she or she's from, like a really wealthy
family, and there is money coming in. I think most guys are very
okay with that. And might see that as a huge, positive, actually. But
it's these other things that are associated with that increased
wealth or career success or education. Those are the hang ups,
not necessarily the the success or the financials by themselves.
Actually, let me ask you a question, Daniel, if you don't
mind, I want to just kind of ask about one of these points. So
basically, you're saying it's not the money itself, but in my mind,
but I'm not a guy. So I again, you can answer this.
If she is bringing in money, if she is a fellow provider, or even
the sole provider, or the primary provider? Doesn't that kind of you
serve the man's role a little or partially, and in my mind, you
know, again, as a woman, so I wouldn't know 100%. But it seems
like there are rules, as you mentioned, Sister Nyima, we have
these roles. And they're not just only in Islam, they're also just
in our football, right? They're just human beings in general, have
these tendencies. The man is the provider, the protector, the
leader, he kind of like leads the ship, right? And then the woman is
not like the slave. She's like, Oh, shut up, don't say anything.
Woman. No, she gives her advice. It's like the president and the
VP, right, the VP will have a lot to say and have a lot of advice to
give and, you know, and then But the President is kind of at the
helm. Right? So but that's the his natural role. And then her natural
role is not to be those things, because you can't have to have
those things to providers, to protectors to leaders. That
doesn't make sense. So she's bringing in money, even if he's
not mixing with guys, or even if she's not, you know, doing all
those things. But doesn't that kind of take away a little bit
from his role and creates kind of this uneasy tension in the
relationship? Like who's that provider you work near you? I
think it has to be very clear, like yes, be very clear who is the
provider because just because you have, the wife has money, however,
that's being acquired. That doesn't mean she's the provider,
like he ultimately at the end of the day has to bring in money for
cost of living for food for clothing. And I think all men
should really own that because that is Islamically what they are
required to to do. Regardless of your wife's wealth, and men as
men, we should be aspiring to be better and better in both when it
comes to dunya. And when it comes to Dean,
there's no question about what Islam is pushing for men. Islam
wants men to be competitive, and that's a big part of it.
But if I mean, it could be a problem if, you know, a wife wants
to use that, like, again, this goes back to competitiveness if
she wants to hold it over his head and kind of lord it over him like,
Oh, look at how much you know, I spent money on this and that and
then that can, that definitely is going to cause a lot of problems.
Like she'll have contempt for him or contempt for him. Yeah, she'll
have contempt, he'll have contempt. So there are, there are
potential problems. But I don't want to say that it's inherently
not going to work. Because, you know, there are examples of
various successful marriages, Muslim marriages, where yeah, the
the woman is more successful, or for whatever reason, she has more
wealth, and it was a very successful marriage because both
sides are mature, and they recognize that, you know, this is
money, but there are more significant more important things
for our love for each other and for our relationship.
Like piety, for example, like our relationship with Allah.
I was just thinking that as you said that Felicia and the Prophet
sallallahu wasallam. And that's, there's no example better than
that. Yeah, that's very true. I think
we won't go into detail.
We won't go into the whole thing. Oh, Khadija as the boss babe.
archetype, because I think that's been debunked. Mashallah. But I
think, in conversation, just finishing up with Kevin Samuels,
for me, as a woman, I agree with you on pilot, the entitlement,
like was screaming, right? And then you see how maybe you have
some of that, will you see that in some of your friends or just in
the general conversation. And I think that what our culture
teaches women in particular, is to not have humility.
And I think that, that it may be, it's just people in general, I
don't know whether the whole society has become completely
narcissistic. And there is no humility left. But I know for a
fact that when it comes to women, we are baked up, right, and we are
taught to, to, to overestimate ourselves really and to to own it,
set it as if it's a counterbalance, as in, you know,
the whole world's gonna put you down, you got to put yourself up
girl, right. And so you need to kind of become this, you know,
super confident, super assertive, super loud and full on out there
type of personality. But I think from an Islamic point of view, and
from a human point of view, I think the inability to embrace
humility, and to be honest and real with yourself, is one of the
reasons than on Kevin Samuels show and just across the board are
tripping themselves up. Because in order to be honest with yourself,
and take a hard look at your reality, who you are, what you
bring to the table of fear and of shadows, to be fair, you know, and
what you can actually offer a man, right, because we're talking about
resources, we're talking about money, we're talking about, you
know, academic qualifications, business success, and all of this
kind of thing. But if we take the example of Khadija, the Allahu
anha, what was her service to the prophets that people always focus
on? You know, the fact that, you know, he ran her businesses, and
there was this wealth and all of that. But when we look at the role
she played in their marriage, as you said, or harlot, it was a
trade deal, woman's role served, she cooked, she raised children,
you know, she looked after him. So my question to you guys, I guess
is, do we need to reclaim our Islamic gender roles within
marriage? And if so, why?
Well, yes, my answer is a definite resounding yes. We do need to
reclaim them because there is chaos without them. Now we have
we're living in a society as you said, nightmare. It's crazy. Like
I really do think and I think we talked about this before the last
time we spoke.
I think a feminism is really just female supremacy and female
narcissism. It's exactly like you said, I do think we're just
everybody in general. In Lamar, Rocky Mountain View, of course,
it's not every last person but in general, as a whole, especially in
Western societies.
People are just becoming more selfish, more narcissistic, but
especially with feminism, pushing women into these roles, and to do
all these things, like you said, it's just really female narcissism
like the victim complex. I'm a victim, I'm men put us down and
the scapegoat is who it's men. It's the patriarchy everything is
wrong because of the patriarchy. So it's really like when you look
at narcissism, there's certain hallmarks of this personality.
It's a personality disorder, and it has very specific aspects. It's
not just any person who's kind of a jerk. No, it's very specific.
All of those fit to a tee with feminism. So I do think, you know,
this is just the age we're living in and we have to counterbalance
Is that we have to fight back. And we have to try to extricate
ourselves from it. And I'm one of the examples of people who try to
do that. And, you know, I'm kind of living proof that you know it
hamdulillah not only me, many, many of us it's I'm not like
unique in this, there's nothing special about me. But a person who
kind of got sucked into that vortex this this, like black hole
of narcissism of delusions, a lot of it is really just delusional
thinking, like unhinged from reality, what do you mean, you can
do exactly what a man can do, there's no way any person with two
eyes in their heads can see that men are very, very different from
women, women can do certain things that men can't do. And vice versa.
Men can do many, many things that women cannot do, regardless of
what you tell yourself. Regardless of how much you put yourself up,
you're still not going to be able to lift as much weight as Him or
do the kinds of tasks that he can do. So just own it, just accept
it. And what's wrong with that? Why is that bad? Like, what? With
that, like, Why? Why do you what is and this is the crazy thing,
sorry, don't just jump in there because it's madness to me that
although feminism claims to be a ration of womanhood, right, and of
rebuilding women's confidence, and all that, what's the benchmark?
Mark is met
is connected, like man can do anything good as a man, okay. And
he's managing trauma, that's your worst. And that's your value. It's
very strange to me. Anyway, the rules with not make what's wrong
with mixing it up. By con the man stay home with the kids, the
brother stay home with the kids is to go out to work. You know,
what's what's what's up with that?
Well, that plays into this idea of hypergamy. And hypergamy, is a
very, very important concept. And it basically speaks to what women
are attracted to what they find attractive naturally. And this is
something biological, it's something very deep rooted. And it
basically means what we mentioned earlier of women being attracted
to men who are socially higher status than they are. So it could
be because of wealth, it could be because of education, it could be
because of professional qualification, or anything that
makes a man more higher in social status, then the woman herself
she's going to be attracted to she's going to be less attracted
to men who are at her same level or lower in terms of social
status. And this is something that people experience, like, a good
example is you have a husband and wife. They're both in their
careers. So working men and working woman, they're making
money and they start out at the same level, maybe, or maybe even
the husband is a little bit higher, and in terms of his
professional career. But then for some reason the woman gets
promoted. She she advances faster up the career ladder, and she ends
up in a higher position, then making more money, bigger title,
then her husband, suddenly, she finds him less attractive.
Suddenly, even if she can't admit it to herself. Like she finds him
more annoying. She finds him like she doesn't like being around him
as much he prefers to be around other more successful men, because
in her career, she is surrounded by men who are also more
successful, or have a higher position than she does in the job.
So she can, unconsciously and sometimes consciously compares
like the men in her job with her husband. And if her husband is
lagging behind, oftentimes, through no fault of his own, she
is just naturally going to find him less and less attractive. And
this is something good.
Just notes please finish because I have a question. I want to just
get a cleric clarification about when you say attracted to do you
mean that she loses physical attraction to her husband? Are you
referring to something else? Yes, physical attraction.
So if she was, so if she was still physically attracted, are you
saying that basically, whatever annoying things which you all
have, they kind of they don't they're not important because she
is drawn to him physically. So she can you know, you shouldn't even
notice those things. But then when the physical attraction wanes, all
of a sudden she everything is getting on her nerves and you
know, maybe she's finding fault in him, etc. Well, being annoyed by
someone is part of physical attraction to like when you're
physically attractive, attracted to some
One you're just more charmed by them. You works there jokes are
more funny in our there's more with sweet. Yeah, their quirks are
endearing, there's more of a theme quirks become just annoying, and
like obnoxious. Yeah, so it's all like attraction is a very complex
phenomenon. And we can't even even for ourselves, we can't even,
like quantify or qualify all aspects of it. But you know, this
hypergamy is a big part of female attraction, and it needs to be
taken seriously. Because when the attraction if physical attraction
goes away, this is significant to the marriage, the marriage is less
likely to last, there is a higher chance for divorce, which has all
kinds of negative consequences for the marriage itself, and huge
consequences for the woman because she's going to have much more
trouble remarrying if she gets divorce a lot of negative
consequences for children as well. We're not saying that divorce is
haram, or it should be, you know, stigmatized, but it is something
that has negative consequences for all those involved. So attraction
is very important. We talk about attraction, like
in physical terms, like, yeah, physical is a big part of it. So
men stay in shape, you know, just because you get married doesn't
mean you can just let yourself go, women to stay in shape. If if a
husband and wife if the wife suddenly gains 30 pounds, 40
pounds, like that's going to have a tangible effect on attraction.
If the husband gains 3040 pounds, that's going to have a tangible
effect on attraction. But another component of attraction that we
have to factor in because it's a reality that no one can deny is
status, and the relative status between husband and wife. So if
you don't take that into consideration, into consideration,
you get the reality that we have in Western society today. And
increasingly, Muslim society of divorce rates skyrocketing. People
are getting divorced, I think in large part because of this, this
hypergamy issue.
I'm struggling with the idea of hypergamy, which I get being a
biological thing, but being impacted by socio like social
things, like social status, you know,
how does that work? Because I mean, from my understanding of
hypergamy, is that a woman looks well, I don't know, I don't buy
the I know, I'm gonna push back because I don't buy the idea
that's common in certain circles, that women are continuously
polygamous by nature, and that they're always looking to upgrade.
So you know, in certain circles, there's this idea that if you
become a beta male within your marriage, for example, and you
know, she loses attraction for you, or you fall on hard times, or
whatever, she's going to be looking for, basically to upgrade
and that she is she if she will only stay with you, if you are her
best available option. And if you kind of start to slack with that
she's going to be looking to upgrade eventually. Do you agree
with that? Because I find that especially within a Muslim
context, I find that it just doesn't ring true for me. I'm
Harlan, what do you think of this? Do you do you think?
I just It doesn't ring true. Yeah, no, I understand. I understand
exactly what you're saying and your hesitation about it. But I
think what we're talking about with hypergamy. Like from a
biological standpoint, this is true, at least in my in my view,
right? This is true.
Like generally, like generally talking about women, this is how
they feel attraction. And actually, I was reading something
recently that was basically talking about female attraction
versus male attraction. The male attraction is pretty much it's
kind of one dimensional. It's, I don't want to say simple, but it's
pretty simple. It's very straightforward. It's very visual.
It's like, oh, she looks nice. I like her. That's attraction, right
for the mean for the meal, and has to do with like, waist to hip
ratio and facial symmetry and all that. So and markers of like
health and fertility, right. So that's what male attraction is a
lot simpler. For female attraction when I was reading is, it's so
obviously it has a lot. This is hypergamy. But it's it's it's
multi layered. It's multifaceted. It's there's definitely a physical
component. So he needs to be tall, he needs to be broad shouldered.
He has to have these cues of masculinity, like rugged jaw,
whatever heavy brow, all of those right so we have those cues to
physically but also we have this social aspect. We have this
component of he needs to be a good provider because when I get
pregnant and have offspring, I will be out of commission. I will
not
be able to provide for myself or bring food or go hunting to bring
meat back for me and my baby, I need a man who will be able to do
that, while I'm out of commission, and then similarly, I can defend
myself. So I need a good protector, provider protector
leader, all of that. So I think it is it's very, very logical. But
then we, as you say, I totally understand the hesitation to kind
of go with that and be okay with it. If as Muslims, you know, what
does that mean? That means, if we, as you said, if he falls on hard
times, if he loses his job, if he becomes ill, and becomes
paralyzed, God forbid, all of these things happen, what she's
going to just like, bounce, she'll be like, Well, it's been real
fast. You know, like, that's where's the loyalty? Where's the
Chiron in that? Where's the llama, she has no drama for him. So what
I think this is my perspective, at least. So hypergamy is real. It is
true. I'm not saying we like it, or we don't like it. It just is we
don't have to like it. It's reality. But it has to be
hypergamy checked by the restraints of deen and Hickman
Islam. So in Islam, it's not, you know, we know that there has to be
not that argument between the husband and wife. And especially
like, I'm not going to talk about the husband side just yet. Because
we're addressing this idea of women's hypergamy. For women,
there has to be this element of loyalty, right? Loyalty well, it
and now this husband of yours, he's your when he is he is, you
know, a regional power moon and and he said, because of the
network that he gives you, because of how He's maintaining you and
taking care of you and cherishing you, he is playing those roles of
that you need that you so desperately seek right? Protector,
provider leader, guy, you know, guide in Islamically. So if that
changes just a little bit, not in terms of his desire to but his
ability to provide in the same way, you need to you need to check
yourself, right. And even if you have like a hands of Oh, like, I
wonder like, should I go down with a sinking ship? Should I just Yes,
yes, you go like you help him you do something? You support him? So
we're not saying we're not promoting hypergamy as Oh, yeah,
as soon as he if he gets if he's if you so much as sneezes, you
better bounce, you know, because who knows what this could turn
into? Or if he loses his job? Forget it, you're out of there,
right? That's not we're not trying to push that. We're just saying
this is the reality for everyone to just acknowledge and understand
as the underlying basis on just a biological level. By just thinking
about it, just think about it in terms of male attraction. Like no
one says that, well, men are attracted to a certain hip to
waist ratio and certain kinds of physical features. Men are
attracted to this, therefore men in marriage are consents are
constantly looking to upgrade and find a wife who's more fit. And we
don't we don't say that, right? We acknowledge the reality. Yeah,
male attraction has this kind of character, we acknowledge that
reality. But there's also restrictions on what a man should
do, like how he should conduct himself how he should lower his
gaze, how he should not mix with the opposite gender. And he if he
has a wife, he stays loyal to her. He doesn't commit Zina, he doesn't
cheat on her and he doesn't, you know, undermine the marriage by
making rude remarks or, you know, insulting her, yeah, she gets
pregnant, she gains weight, therefore, now I'm going to
upgrade, no, like, in the same way the husband has to be loyal and
caring and loving and cherishing his wife through good times and
bad. So we can acknowledge that side of male attraction. But we
should equally acknowledge the female side of attraction and the
female reality of attraction otherwise, we're giving like women
a free pass basically, it to their own detriment to the detriment of
women when we don't acknowledge the reality of what attraction
consists of for them.
I hear you. And I think what you refer to as the dean gives us the
Dean tempers us right, and gives us a context for our biology
right. So I'm just think when when people talk about unchecked
hypergamy they are talking about in the non Muslim world, right
just out there in the world because for a Muslim Ummah
unchecked hypergamy is not really going to be it's not doesn't work
in the same way because, you know, firstly, it's not that easy for
you to just like, see your husband for divorce for no reason. You
don't take half his stuff, okay. You are going to get a lot more
flak from family and community and they are going to feel like they
have more of a say and be more involved.
You yourself as a divorcee, obviously in the society, in our
society, our communities, you are no longer sort of like, you know,
top billing, if you like, no matter how beautiful you are you
still you know, there are still questions that are asked about
that. So yeah, the Dean I think checks that just like you know, as
you
He said the Dean checks you know the biology of men as well.
Mashallah. So I, we've gone and talked about things that we never
planned to talk about Mashallah. But it's been really amazing. But
I think I would like to just, if we can finally just go back to the
question that you said about, you know, girls and boys are different
men and women are different, they fulfill different roles. I think
my question to the two of you is, how are you raising your sons and
daughters differently if in any way? And I would love to, to kind
of just get a bit more familiar with with the messages, I guess,
that you're giving your daughters and your sons? Yeah, I think it's
a really fascinating thing. Yeah. Because of the society that we
live in.
Yeah, so with gender roles. The other thing that we can say is, we
recognize that in when it comes to a business when it comes to a
educational institution, when it comes to government or an army,
that the only way for those organizations to be successful if
is if everyone has a clearly defined role, and everyone is able
to work together despite their different roles. But when it comes
to family, no, it's, you know, everyone is the same. There's no
defined role, like how does that make sense? How can you have a
successful family when roles aren't defined, but the thing is
that unlike a business or a government institution, the roles
in the family are based on the way that Allah has created us. And
Allah has made it very easy for us to fall into certain roles because
of how he has created our nature. And there is this paradigm that
Allah has created with husbands as leaders and wives as the
supporters of their husbands. This is patriarchy, basically, which is
a very taboo word. But this is the reality when Omaha had mentioned
the or alluded to the idea of regional Pomona and he said, Men
are the authorities and leaders over women. Obviously, a wham has
a lot of content connotations, such as protector, sustainer, but
also authority. So this is a model that is divinely prescribed. And
it's to our detriment. It's harmful to us if we try to go
against this model that has is literally revealed in the Koran,
and is also exemplified by the Prophet salallahu, alayhi
wasallam, all of the major Sahaba and companions and, and this is
not like a, this is not meant to denigrate women or give insult
women or say women are less than No, everyone has their own role.
And I think that's a beautiful thing. It's a it's a very good
model that leads to the flourishing of human beings on in
this dunya. So if we need to teach this to our children, both sons
and daughters, they need to understand that this is a
beautiful, divinely prescribed model, divinely revealed model
exemplified by the best human being. In the Prophet sallallahu
alayhi wa sallam and the best followers and companions of the
best human being solo la vida Sena. The education is really
important in setting expectations, we have to set the correct
expectations for our sons and daughters. And at the end of the
day, the vision for raising our children, whether they be sons or
daughters is that we want them to be in Jannah we want them to be in
* that that was in the highest levels of Jannah. That's
every parent's goal every Muslim parent, parent school should be
this and, but you also want your children to be happy, you want
them to enjoy life and to have a good, comfortable, easy life, a
happy life and in line with their film that's in line with our fifth
rock. So how do you achieve that? You achieve that by teaching them
okay, what are gender roles, I would say to my sons, you have to
be a good leader, you have to be a good provider, you have to be
reliable, you have to be dependable, you have to be loyal,
you have to have these kinds of traits like resilience in the face
of difficulty for my daughter and I'm probably can't elaborate her
vision but for daughter, teach, you know you have to be a
supporter, you have to be loyal, you have to be modest, you have to
be encouraging you have to be a be you have to be wise you have to be
a loving and nourishing and compassionate. You have to be the
glue that holds family together. You have to be the you know, the,
the comfort, just like Khadija or the low on how was the comfort for
the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam or Ayesha right the line
how was the
Comfort and the support and and being good advisor you know the
the wives of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam would
sometimes advise him and make give him suggestions and provide him
comfort when he was down and feeling sad about certain
situations outside of his control. So the these guys if we teach the
Sunnah of the Prophet sallallahu wasallam, and we teach the, the
example of the wives and the Mothers of the Believers, the
wives of the Prophet Sallallahu isrm, and the mother, Mothers of
the Believers, and we do it in the proper lens of gender roles, not
this kind of feminist lens of oh, all of the Sahaba the Sahaba yet,
were fighting in battles and like they were business women and like,
this is a feminist apologetic, like, oh, we want to be more
feminist than the feminists themselves. So we project this
kind of feminism onto the prophets, Allah La Jolla, Sam and
his companions and his wife's know that we reject that kind of rewash
rewashing feminist washing of the Sierra no teach the authentic
Sierra and it's very clear, based on teach, teach the example of
Maryam in the Koran, and what are her attributes? What are her
characteristics if we properly and faithfully teach these role models
that we have in the Koran and Sunnah. That's that those are the
roles and those are the gender roles, that's the archetype that
we teach, we need to teach our children that's why this
homeschooling curriculum that home father has developed, mashallah,
with last night, it really focuses on stories of the Sahaba Stories
of the Prophets, the MBA generally. And to make those
examples very real, like these are not just theoretical things, these
are examples for us to imbibe their characteristics to follow to
be inspired by to aspire to. And yeah, that's great, Daniel, I
completely agree. And the to make this more tangible, how do we
teach our sons and our daughters how to be and the different gender
roles you don't just you have to make it relatable to them. And for
them, you have to make it close to them tangible so they can touch it
and really identify with it so it resonates because if you just if
it's a top down approach, very dictatorial, very tyrannical, you
say you Come here girl, daddy and daddy, I've been fighting, so
I'm gonna yell at you, I'm gonna, you know, like, put the fear of
God and you have to cook you have to clean you have to be asleep,
like, okay, that's not gonna go over well, she's gonna grow up on
want to rebel and do the exact opposite of everything you just
told her because you didn't say it in the way that she could really
hear it and really imbibe it and really like gratefully and with,
with real grace and genuineness really accepted and hold that as a
part of herself, she that's not going to happen if you do it in
this kind of way. Right? chastise her into it, it's just not going
to work. And for same for boys. If you say, Hey, come here that I hit
Oh 8x With $1 you know, a headache. And then you tell him
Oh, you have to be Miss You have to, again, the boy will grow up
and say, Well, I don't want to do any of that. I don't want to be
any of those things that were kind of beaten into me in this in this
kind of harsh way. Right? That was on the prophets, we either either
yourself or someone in raising not only children, but even the adults
because here is an entire gene an entire generation of men and women
also have also hobbies, or the alarm engineering. But if you say
it's there's a very simple way to do it. And it's not even you
saying it's if you make your children intimately familiar with
the zero, the Quran primarily and the spirit of the Prophet
sallallahu sallam, and the spirit of the companions. And this is
something just on a personal note, we actually do this and I
sometimes will write anecdotally like just different stories of
how, how it is with my children when we do this with them, because
they love it. Children normally love stories. Most children, they
live for stories, and instead of showing them Disney and narrating
them to them stories, you know, for movies or these Disney fairy
tales, or you know, you can substitute that swap that out for
the zero of holodeck manually or the other one. Like my kids are
obsessed. My youngest son is in college, and my keynotes Pamela
it's just I can go on and on Daniel knows we listened to zero,
you know, and it's very like chronological and they love it.
They reenact the battles all the hustlers and all the magic that he
got into and they have these toy swords and play like play battle
things like play shields and swords and chest plates and things
like that helmets and they wear that stuff and they go around the
house just like reenacting the battles they'll say this is this
is that is sell as a market that isn't as market really market lace
and they name the battles and then they whatever they can remember a
bit which mashallah is surprisingly quite a bit of what
they remember and what the routine of this because it's story so it's
easy for them to retain. You don't have to fight them to get them to
remember this remember, so they will just reenact this, okay, I'm
over here you go behind the hill, then I'm going to signal to you
give you a signal, you're going to go around the enemy and come this
way. Well
Lay some hands on that. So this is just one example and show them the
seed of the preface on them, or at least let them listen to it or you
narrate it. And if you're reading from a book, the seed of the
Prophet sallallahu Sallam and everything he did, how he was Ali
Ali, for him, how was he ever worked? How was he? What did he
do, or Omar Abdullah, and so, and these are all and we're also one
thing that I learned through, it was kind of like relearning this,
you know, with my own children, which is really beautiful. That's
a beautiful part of being a parent, you relearn some things
with your children, as you're teaching it to the kids, you kind
of teach it yourself as well. And that now that you're older, and
one thing I learned through listening to, or reading about the
stories of these prophets of these, the prophets, alayhi salam,
and also the Sahara Alana, is that there's not just one very
particular specific way to be masculine, and to fulfill this
masculine rule. There are many different models. And it's really
beautiful, because Islam takes into account our personalities,
right. So Omar was the one who was a very different man, he was very
masculine, but he was a very different type of man for both men
and masculine, who's also very masculine. And we work right. So
these are different models of masculinity, but they're all
beautiful, and they're all acceptable, because they all
fulfill the Islamic ideal. Go ahead. Yeah, sorry.
No, no, no, no, I love what you've said. MashAllah is, you know,
completely on point. But I just want to push back on what Daniel
said earlier, though, because you mentioned that, you know, this
feminist feminist washing of the Sierra, and that Muslim women were
not doing all of those things, fighting and doing all of this
thing. But isn't it the truth that they were, as well as being wives
and mothers and you know, being people who looked after the poor
in the community and you know, used to serve their husbands, etc?
Why can we have a plurality of masculine role models and not a
plurality of female role models? Because when I look at the wives
of the Prophet SAW Selim, just like you said, on pilot, they are
all so different in terms of character personality, the gifts
that Allah subhanaw taala gave them. So do you think I know what
you're saying about people pushing the idea that no, no Muslim women
were doing exactly what the men were doing. And they were out
there being Boss Babes. But I think that we also don't want to
go to the other extreme and say, no, no, no, no, that's nonsense.
This is this is the archetype. I mean, what do you say to that?
Oh, an archetype doesn't mean that there are no exceptions. An
archetype means what is really the standard, what is the expectation,
and with any kind of expectation or archetype, it's understood that
you can be deviate from that to a certain extent, like there's a
certain level of tolerance for diversity. But you have to have
the archetype in mind. Like, just because this is the problem with
some of these feminists is that they tried to undermine the
archetype by focusing on the exceptions. And this is a big
problem, because then without the archetype without the model,
very solidly established in the minds of the community that leads
to chaos. And that leads to a lack of direction and feeling. There's
no anchor, like what really should I be doing? For the vast majority
of people like we're human beings, and human beings, it's kind of
like a bell curve, right? If you study statistics, like most people
tend to gather around the average. And then there are standard
deviations of difference like people, but it's very rare for
someone to be you know, that far from the actual average, or the
archetype. So I'm not denying that there are exceptions. But we can
allow those exceptions to undermine our model. I'd also
further say like on the specific example of like, fighting in
battle and war, there's just some sometimes a very unsophisticated,
I'm not saying you're unsophisticated. MashAllah sister
Naima. But some of these feminists will just point to specific
examples of women fighting in the Sierra, and they won't acknowledge
the reality that in. There's no problem with Muslim women fighting
defensively, like when the Muslim nation is being attacked. And
there are literally hordes trying to annihilate the Muslim community
and the OMA then everyone, man, woman, child, everyone is required
to fight.
It's all hands on deck. So no one disputes that no one no one says
that, oh, in that case, women should shouldn't be, you know,
cooking dinner when people are literally being killed. But, so we
have to be like, take the entire context of the CRR and when you
get when you take specific examples, make sure it's you know,
properly contextualized when you do the proper contextualization,
you see that actually, these examples
of women who are supposedly breaking the mold? Actually, no,
they were pretty typical Muslim women following this model, this
Islamic model. So it just requires a little bit of nuance. And the
other thing I will say just about that, because I get that a lot is,
is the exceptions are such a minority. I think when you don't
study the Sierra, you think you hear about nusseibeh, you hear
about Hola. Hello. So you think okay, all of the women were done
individually, one by one, they were lining up, they had like a
women's
women's battalion. Exactly. That's what you think right in your head.
When you go and you actually read this, you know, you're like, Oh,
it was like a handful of women. And again, as Daniel said, under
the most dire of circumstances, fighting for sheer survival, like
literal survival, It's life and death, then not even all the women
came out, some came out because of they have to grit. So you don't
but that's how cherry picking works, which is what feminists do
is they take those 3456 women and they say, Oh, look, look, there's
so many examples. And it seems like all of the women are doing
this, that's not even true. And it was under Life and Death
circumstances. So none of that matches our circumstances now, so
it's very disingenuous, and it really misrepresents the zero. So
I would advise all of us, myself included to study the serum more
deeply and really look at the Prophet SAW Selim and how Sahaba
lived and how the females are, how they how they lived, and it gives
us Inshallah, the light and the guidance for how we should be
approaching our lives now.
And that is, I think that is what she said mashallah, to Monica
Lodge is like a local look here guys has been absolutely amazing.
There's still so many more things for us to talk about. Hopefully
we'll be able to welcome you back again in sha Allah, but for now, I
think everybody knows they can find on hiding on Facebook nowhere
else okay.
And brother Daniel is on YouTube, Masha, Allah, Facebook, the Muslim
skeptic.com We will put all the links in the description in sha
Allah. But most importantly, I would ask Allah Subhana Allah
subhanaw taala to miss the two of you and your family and the work
that you've been put here to do, may he continue to guide you and
protect you and bless you with the very best for dunya West Africa
and inshallah we will meet again but in the ledger Xochimilco
located where I can live thank you so much for having us it's really
been a pleasure and our honor just lucky thank you so much Camden in
LA Guys you know what to do like the video hit the notification
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