Naima B. Robert – TMC Full Episode 3 Marriage Advice to Muslim Couples Imam @1ShabbirHassan
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So Bismillah May Allah make these conversations fruitful, beneficial
and
enjoyable for all involved, including you guys.
Bismillah salam ala Rasulillah Salam alaykum Warahmatullahi
Wabarakatuh brothers should be your house and how are you doing
today? I want to 100 Login really, really well? How are you?
hamdulillah hamdulillah I'm so excited to be having this
conversation with you. It's been a while since we caught up. And I
have so much to ask you so many topics that I'm really looking
forward to diving deep with you on inshallah. So I think,
you know, I've introduced you to the the viewers, you know, they
know a little bit about your work. But what would you say, you know,
is
the thing, I want to say the thing or the things that you are
encountering the most when it comes to the work that you're
doing in the Nikka space with, you know, wives, husbands people
wanting to get married? What's the what's the word on the street?
What are you seeing?
Select Rohan Rahim? So yeah, I think
it's an interesting one. So I mainly predominantly kind of
dealing with the beginning of the journey with a lot of couples, as
opposed to later on. So obviously, you have like counselors who deal
with like, kind of later on in the process. But me, I spent a lot of
time speaking with couples who are kind of planning that Nikka and
you know, they've got lots of questions, pre kind of marital
stuff. You know, that's the kind of stuff I'm dealing with. So I've
been doing that for like, just over five years now. So it's been
an interesting experience, not just officiating and conducting
the Nica ceremonies that's that we could we could probably do another
whole podcast just on my experiences attending weddings,
and she kind of was down there. But yeah, I think it's more so
planning and the kinds of questions and the kind of
difficulties that a lot of couples run into, and they face. And
there's some common ones not I mean, like, on social media, the
trending one is like Maha. So
about Maha. This is a deep one. This is a deep one. What do you
say? What's What's your Okay, all right, let me put you on the spot.
Because obviously, there's team Hi, Maha. And there's team Loma.
So Which team are you on? What What's your stance?
So, yeah, I mean, it's, I wish it was as easy as saying, I'm on one
team. I take one view on this. And this is probably what I ended up
saying to a lot of the couples that come with this question that
like, you know, our families are saying one thing and where we're
kind of like, you know, saying one thing and so Islamically what is
the Mahara? I always get asked this Islamically what is the
Mahara mount or what is the Sunnah Maha etc. And for me, it's like,
you know, it's not a straightforward it's not like in
the Quran and the Sunnah, in one Hadith, you're going to find the
process, I'm saying, give this Mahara mount, right? If it was as
simple as that, it will be so much easier. There will be no question,
we just will be giving that my heart and job done right, it'd be
very easy. But because our face, Islam is such a comprehensive,
holistic, and Dean, it's a way of life. You know, it's not as simple
as you know, 1400 years ago, the process, I'm in Arabia, in the
time that they were living in saying this is the Muhammad and
now fortunately, is in a complete different world, we're going to
apply exactly that same amount, because, you know, it just the
world doesn't work like that. And, obviously, I lost pantalla is, you
know, the All Knowing and he knows that, you know, this is this is
something that's going to be until piano right. So hence why I say
look, the best way of looking at it, and you know, and to kind of
summarize the whole issue is whatever you can afford to give.
So from the from the man side, it's about affordability. By but I
also add, it has to be respectable as well. I think that's that's a
really key one. Because sometimes it's nice being respectable, yeah,
respectable amount, because what tends to happen is, so people take
this word Simple, right? Islam is all about simplicity. So let's do
a simple Nica. You know, and, and they go so simple. That it's like,
you know, I give a funny example, sometimes I'm like, so the mad
that you're giving with no kind of, I mean, nothing bad here. No
offense whatsoever. But the mother that you're giving, you've gone so
simple, that you're basically you're paying your chauffeur to
that you're driving that's driving you to your wedding venue, more
giving to your wife, the one that you're literally committing your
life to. And you know, it's Hala. Right
Like, is that is that? Not that? Why is it chauffeur being hired
for a simple Nikka? That's what I want. Thus, you know, if we open
up that kind of websites and of itself, right, if you're spending
on the wedding, yeah, maybe you need to be matching that somehow
with the Mahara? Maybe? I don't know. Yeah, well, that's good.
That's that that is going to be a kind of an indication of what your
affordability is like. Right? Right. So you're right, yeah. So
if you have a wedding with a huge wedding with a huge hole, and you
have all of these extra fancy things with it, that's not really
simple. I'm not against that, by the way, if you can afford
Alhamdulillah that's, I'm not against that. But you have to kind
of reflect that as well. You know, your marriage is more important
than the wedding. Right? So, you know, one of the issues that we'll
probably end up speaking about is too many young couples today are
spending more time preparing for their weddings than they are for
their marriages. Which is a huge issue. So Instagram for that
Instagram. Yeah. 100% 100 Fitness a panela. Yeah, it is, it is. So
that so you got the affordability on one side.
And then you've also got on the other hand, you know, we've spoke
about it being a respectable amount, right? And what the other
side is happy with as well. There has to be that, you know, Allah
says, Give it in good cheer, right? So the from the woman's
side, she needs to be happy with it and agreed to it. On the guy
side, what's affordable, anything in between that inshallah is a
good Mahara amount as long as you've been reasonable, and, and
you bought it with the right intention? Most cases, it's okay.
I really like that as kind of a parameter. What I've, what I'm
seeing the conversation around my house that I'm seeing, I think
there's a couple of things. One is the family. Right? Obviously, I'm
in Egypt and in Egypt, the MaHA has nothing to do with the girl.
She doesn't really have much of a say, her father sets the MaHA. So
I'm sure you've, you know, you maybe come across situations where
the family sets, the high Maho and the couple of like, give us a
break, we just want to get married. And they're like, No,
this, this, this this. And so I'm interested to know whether you
understand why families are doing that. What's the motivation behind
the family pushing for high Maha? Yeah, I mean, to the extent that
there's extremes where couples have literally come to us, and
they've said, you know, what, we've we've agreed to it, but
we're not, we don't really agree to it. Like, we're gonna put it
down. Because our family is so adamant. But, like, we know, like,
the girl herself has signed, I know he can't afford it. He's
saying, I can't afford it. We're just gonna say yes, because we
need to get married. To My Heart, basically. Yeah. That's, that's
good.
So sounds
like a stealth Mahara? Okay, so he's gonna be getting ideas from
this now. Yeah. So it's not like, you know, obviously, we don't
encourage that. We don't advise that because that shows the
communication isn't there, and you need to communicate a bit more
effectively beforehand. It is tough. So yeah, so it's not like
they're not paying my HUD. They're not, you know, because my HUD is
an integral part of the Nikka. We know that. It's just that they
just can't agree to what the families have said. So where does
where does it come from? I mean, there's couple of things. Firstly,
I mean, no doubt, in even in the Islamic tradition, you have the
well, he has a great role, right?
Well, he is like, you know, The Guardian, the one who gives
blessings, a lot of times is the girl's father or uncle or someone
like that, right. And obviously, in the Islamic tradition, we have
that. But there was a Jackie Lee practice, pre Islamic practice,
where the Muhammad would be given to the Wali and the one who
wouldn't take it and not give a penny or a dime to the woman who
had just been married off to the daughter, the daughter of the
household, basically, right. This was a pre Islamic practice. So
when Islam came,
obviously the Quran completely condemned this didn't take away
the Wiley's role, right? Because when he still has a role, but
said, look, obviously, the Wali will will has a role to play, but
when it comes to the MaHA it has to be given to the woman now, can
they already have a role in, you know, discussing that because at
the end of the day, sometimes it's very sensitive issue, right. So,
you know, a guy's not just going to walk in to his future indoors
and be like, Yeah, you know, to start talking about money. It's,
so this is what the lady comes in, and, you know, the parents have a
conversation. Yes. But that's kind of with that, you know, that's
kind of keeping in mind that prior to that conversation between the
parents, they should have had a separate conversation with the
kids like so what can you afford and what should we go in, you
know, you kind of had it have a ballpark
figure where I'm at in mind. That's that's kind of how it
works. That's, that's number one. And then number two, I would say
is the culture, right? So, culture is another discussion and of
itself. So it's not a bad thing. But in some cultures, you know,
they do, unfortunately have this practice where they just end up
taking them out, or they take full control here. You've mentioned in
Egypt I've seen in the Indo Pak, Indian subcontinent,
South Asian, and you've got other cultures where they do this. Yeah,
this is weapons comes from, yeah, where I'm from Zimbabwe, South
Africa, I mean, the it's called lobola, or aura. And it's not for
the bride at all. She's not seeing any of that. No, it's it is it is
a gift to the family. It's not a gift to her. So it's not as an
Islamic thing that not Muslims are doing it. But
it's what I, what I there's a couple of things here. When the
father says, My daughter deserves 10,000 pound Maha 20,000 pounds in
the in the Arabia, they do this as well, like huge sums of money. Or
in Egypt, you have to buy a house, you have to have a flat, you have
to buy a house. Because if you divorce her, she will not be left
penniless, and she will not be left homeless. And this is
something that I've been seeing among sisters conversations as
well, this idea that the MaHA is an insurance of some kind.
My question is, is that Islamic is is insuring against a divorce? Or,
you know, if he leaves me basically, I'm not going to be
penniless? You know, I will have got my little piece and whatever.
Is it an Islamic idea as an Islamic approach? Do you see
anything wrong with it? Is that perfectly fine? Because I have
seen definitely, over the years since when I was, you know,
getting married, when we were so simple, they probably know,
mashallah,
you know, nobody asked for high marks at all, you know, sometimes
our brothers did take advantage, but it was considered to be
something that you just keep it simple. Now, even sisters, you
know, in my generation, who maybe are looking to get married again,
et cetera, the conversation is you need to get your Maha girl, you
know, don't be settling for no X, Y Zed, you need to get you know,
whether it's gold or your ring, or your 5k or 10k, or 20k, or
whatever it is. And the idea behind it is the insurance, you
know, that if it doesn't work out, I will not be left with my hands
empty. So I'd love to hear your like your thoughts on that? Yeah.
So it's very, very common. It's very common understanding of Maha
now Islamically. We could say it's not the prime, that's not the
primary kind of reason why the market exists, right. But it's one
of like the scholars, and this is one of the benefits, one of the
many benefits, right, which is why we know that regardless of what
happens, the Mahad is not something that can be taken back,
even in the case of divorce. Right. And Pollock, you can't take
two, right. Yes. So that's one of the wisdoms, right. I mean, that
the primary we could say wisdom, Allah knows best is that it is
really, truly it's a gift that you're giving to, to, to the one
that you're getting married to mark the beginning of the Nikka,
the marriage and also the scholar say, to show and if it's going to
make sense, but it's to show the seriousness of your proposal.
Yeah. Right. Because it's like, yeah, that's any other
relationship. You just kind of you can go in and go out, right. But
with the marriage is like, you've got to put something down now to
show how serious you are to commit. Yeah, yeah. So these are
like, that's like the primary primary function of the of the
MaHA. And then the secondary, which is, yeah, as part of that,
definitely, there is some level of, you know, stability, or
whatever you want to call it, there behind it. So for someone to
demand that, I don't do want to make this clear that you as a, as
a woman, because getting married, right, you are allowed to you have
every right to demand, whatever you want. There's no, there's no,
like we said, there's no limit. Right. But, like, we did also
clarify that you need to be reasonable and understanding of
the situation of the person you're, you're getting married to
now, it could be a case where a woman, you know, is in talks,
right? This, there's some talks taking place, and she demands in
my head, the guy can't do it. And she decides not to go ahead and
decide to go with, you know, look at another option. Like I said
that she's completely within her right to do that. So Islamically
she's not going to be penalized for it. Because it's just talks
it's not like you've entered into them. And now you're demanding
something so well within your rights. But this whole thing about
it just being I mean, especially like it's it's quite interesting
to look at it in, in our part of the world in the Western world,
right? Because in other places where they have a different
culture like now mashallah, you know, a lot, a lot of women are
working now a lot more independent. So it's almost like
the dynamics have shifted a lot, where a lot of women in the
western world they're just like, I don't necessarily
Need a high amount of overhead because I'm working, etc. So even
if worst case, God forbid, something does happen. I'm working
at it. And I haven't you know, so I've actually seen my prints from
them just so like as as, as a service and a group of Imams that
I work with, we've done more than 500, nearly 600 new cars now.
Personally, I've done more than 300 because myself live. So you
can imagine how many couples I've spoken to, and how many
consultations I've had, and I know what my needs are being given.
Right. And it's not just one kind of demographic loads of different
right. And I'm seeing the trend of
in most cases, the Mahara is significantly, it's a lot less
than you would think it is.
There are the odd ones where it's very high. But mothers are, you
know, very, very reasonable. So I can say very reasonable. And my,
my kind of assumption or hypothesis here is, it's because
of what I just mentioned, because, you know, both man and woman
working. So there, it's kind of it's become more symbolic now.
That's what I would say. Yeah. So it's an interesting one, like,
this is actually so interesting. Yeah. This is really interesting
to me. And I think, why I'm finding it so intriguing is
because sort of outside of the Muslim community, women having
more money, more assets, you know, better career success kind of
climbing up the ladder, has meant that they actually have higher
expectations of their partners. So, you know, they, they want
somebody who makes the same as them, or more than them, so you
know, kind of the pool gets smaller, you know, and the more
successful they are. So it's really interesting to see that
sisters are when they themselves are financially comfortable. Just,
it's they're just not putting that much stock in the Mahara itself.
Yeah, just Yeah. You know, but so that's just from my personal
experience, but, you know, you're gonna come across all all
different in not one, not, no, two marriages are the same, right? So
in different cultures and different parts in the body
systems listening to this that do live in UK, America that are like,
No, that's not how it's how I did it. But that's not how I would do
it. That's fine. Like we said, like the mad thing, it's a
discussion that is always going to be ongoing, because the world is
rapidly changing. And, you know, it's, it just comes down to that.
Really, whatever you're happy with whatever is agreed upon. And yeah,
there are some limits as well. Like one of the limits is, you
know, yes, parents and wily, etc, can be involved, but they can't be
so involved that now they're dictating exactly what the amount
is, or not giving the amount and, you know, things like this. So um,
yeah, it kind of takes away then from the spirit of marriage. Like,
if you're starting on that note.
It's not really nice. Is it to start like that. So
it should be I mean, the discussion should be more healthy.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. No, I agree. I agree.
Cut. Is your is your I'm gonna pause this, and we're gonna
All right. So I'd like you to spill the tea on this. Okay. Is
there such a thing? As a perfect spouse?
Is there such thing as a perfect spouse?
So I can answer this in a clever way. And say, yes, but not in this
life. Right. Oh.
I saw. I don't think anybody wants to hear that. Yeah. So that's,
that's, that's the cop out answer. Right. So not in this life. So the
other answer really, is that no, there's no such thing as a as a
perfect spouse. But having said that, I mean, why, firstly, why?
Because I mean, it's just, we as human beings are imperfect. So
you get married to someone, you get married to someone else who's
imperfect, right? We do. We do believe in this concept of,
like, completing each other. We believe in that kind of concept.
Because like this whole, this whole concept of half your deen,
right? We speak about it's based on a hadith processor. Right. So
we you complete half of your deen. Right.
So there's different kinds of interpretations of meaning. Yeah,
I was going to say I love you to just like, yeah. What's your
interpretation of that? So like some of the scholars they say like
when you're completing half of your deen or Nikka, being half of
the deen what it means what it means is that by two people coming
together, right? You don't now just have, for example, one set of
eyes or one set of ears or one set of hands. Now you've got two sets,
right? So it kind of means that whatever you do now is going to be
more productive and what you feel
Shouldn't and we're not just talking I mean, we can we can
apply that generally. But more so in the, from the perspective of
spirituality and worshiping Allah and coming closer to Allah. When
there's two of you, right? You kind of get closer to Allah a lot
quicker than you would by yourself. Why?
I had no idea, you know, the, the what, I don't know where it came
from, but the interpretation I've always heard is that, well,
firstly, is it Nica the Nikka itself as in Once you marry,
you've completed half your deen or is it marriage? That is half your
deen? Because that's an important distinction. Which one is it? So
the wording of the Hadith, one of the one of the Hadith, I think
it's an Abu Dawood. If I'm not mistaken. It's either has always a
lab to soccer. Milan is for Dean, when they get married, then they
have completed so it's like that beginning is now half the dean and
but the here's the here's the important part, which a lot of
because that's the Twitter quote, right? Half might be completed,
right? Everybody, everybody romanticizes that part, but they
they discard the second part of the Hadith, which is that, you
know, failure. Tequila has been nice, Phil BARCHI. Right. So be
conscious and God you're right. And be conscious of Allah of your
Lord, in the remaining half. Right. So everyone's like, yeah,
half my deed done. That's it for last, right? Yeah. But no. So now,
what I always mentioned is, as part of like, the reminders on the
wedding day as part of the, let's say, Hamdulillah, you've completed
half your deen celebrate that amazing blessing from Allah. But
now is the real test. Like, you got to help each other now? Yeah,
to complete the other half of the day and a half. Yeah. So that's
where I believe the concept comes from, you know, from that hadith,
and that's our understanding of it. So So in that sense, yes, you
complete one another, you're supposed to be completing each
other, you're supposed to be helping each other. But there's
never going to be perfection in anything because perfection only
belongs to Allah. Right. And, and everybody's definition and
perception of what perfection is. It varies. For some people, it
means there's going to be no arguments and no issues and no
disputes. But the most, the best of human beings, our process lab
had issues and disagreements disputes in his marriage. So where
does this come from this idea that, if he's the right one, if
she's the right one, it will be smooth sailing, like, like you
said, we won't argue won't misunderstand each other, he'll
never hurt me, I never hurt him, you know, this idea. And I
remember another coach saying, you know, there is no relationship in
your life, even from the one who gave birth to you, where there is
no friction, where there is no misunderstanding, you know, so
where did we get this idea from that? You know, okay, you chose
somebody, therefore,
if it's right, if he's the right one, if she is the right one, then
it's going to be smooth sailing. And if there are problems, it's
because he's not right. For me. She's not right for me, I don't do
you have people saying things like that to you? Nobody says it out
loud. But a lot of people think it. A lot of people have that
perception before marriage. And this is where this is where a lot
of issues arise from. And a lot of it comes down to the expectation
before a person gets married, right. So this whole concept of
Mr. Right and Mrs. Perfect or whatever, right? You have this
image. So I think, you know, it's I hope most people don't think in
this way, because it's just, you know, like that from just from
your experience up until you got married all these years, you've
spent every relationship that you've had, you've seen that it
hasn't been as smooth sailing as you probably would have been. So
why do you think now this person that you're marrying, which isn't
even like it's not your mother, your father Your no family member
blood relatives? This is someone completely different. Right? You
get my song completely different, different family, different
values, different background, right? A lot of times, and you
expect that to go, like really smooth like, surely you should
think this of notes, that's going to take a lot of work. Right. So I
think, you know, you mentioned before, like social media,
you know, the expectation of marriage. I mean, big word for me
is romanticization as Muslims especially right
on it, yeah.
Marriage is such a, it's such a huge one. And I can see so much
money I mean, just from just from even taking verses from the Quran,
the snippets from the Sunnah, right? Yes, Allah speaks about
marriage in the Quran process and had said
Moments with his wives, etc. But taking that, and then you know,
romanticizing it, meaning that you're like, Yeah, this is it.
This is what marriage is going to be like. This just like that. It's
going to be like this or taking seeing an image of a couple on
social media. I like oh, this is this happened. Yeah, couple goals.
Hashtag right. I hate that hashtag. So I actually, I really
think it's such a dangerous. It's romanticization, as you said, and
it's almost fetishizing. You know, people's curated experiences.
Yeah. A couple goals. What do you know about this couple that you
could say couple goals anyway. Yeah, to continue.
So things like that, taking things like that. And then having this,
you know, how, like, you know, Hollywood, Bollywood, right? You
know, people are influenced by this so much. I mean, Hollywood,
Bollywood is huge now is global. I mean, once upon a time, it was
just, you know, in one part of the world in India, that kind of, now,
it's global. Right. So most of these stories, films, right? Most
of the dramas on Netflix, most songs today, right? They get the
song all about what it's just all about these things, right
relationships, and perfect, you know, relationships, and so on.
It's almost like it's either a toxic version of a relationship,
or it's this romanticized version of relationships. Yeah.
Thank you very much. And the Happily Ever After is the wedding
day.
Wow. Okay. So
the Miss educating people right now.
Right. So the films that it's like, Oh, they got my own and, you
see,
right. So story. Yeah, and, but that's just, that's just the start
of it. No. Sequel, and nobody wants to watch the sequel. Know
what the thing is, the thing is you when Hollywood does make a
sequel, it's things like marriage story, which I saw a review on,
which is basically just a couple of completely breaking down. So
you either have, as I said, this romanticized version, romance, and
passion and lust and infatuation disguised as love, you know, kind
of creepy behavior in obsessive behavior all, you know, couched as
love. And if you don't feel those feelings, and it's not love, if
you don't feel those feelings, and it's not real, he's not the one,
he's not your soulmate. It's not true love all of those things,
you've got that, and the songs and everything about that. And then
you've got, you know, you know, media that kind of just shows
relationships as being this really toxic place where, you know, there
is there is, it's like, there's nothing in between, there's no
sort of normal, healthy couple work, you know, the couple work
that we all have to do, to support each other to understand to learn
each other forget, understand, to be learning each other day to day
I, when I observe couples, and certainly from my own experience,
learning your spouse is such careful work, it has to be such
careful work, because at the end of the day, you want this to last
right? You want this to be at a place where you both feel safe and
comfortable. And at home, right? We don't see that. That's not
real. I don't see it reflected around me, I don't see anything
like healthy, normal relationships being reflected around us.
Absolutely. Coming back to this discussion on the perfect spouse,
right. So one thing that I always say is, if you can go into a
marriage with this following mindset, right, there's many, many
things you can you can consider. But this following mindset, if you
can go into it, right, that I right from my end, I am going to
try to be the perfect spouse in mind, I'm going to try to be the
perfect spouse I'm going to, I know there's no such thing as
perfect, but I'm going to try and get there I'm gonna be the best
possible version, right? And then from my spouse's end, I know that
they can't be perfect. And I know they're going to make mistakes,
and they might let me down from time to time and you know, they
are imperfect, okay? And I'm willing to accept that you go into
a merge of that mindset. And your spouse comes into America, that's
they themselves I think, I'm going to try and be the best. But I know
if you both come into a marriage with that mindset, then I'll
handle it. That's what I could say like, oh, yeah, huge. Yeah.
That'll be it'll be a very wholesome inshallah relationship,
because both of you on the same page. Right. I agree. I agree. And
I think there's a there's something to be said as well for
having high expectations of yourself. And I don't want to say
low expect
patience of the other but at least realistic expectations of the
other and taking ourselves to account much, much more than we
take the other because I think that we fall into that, don't we,
you know, when couples are having problems, it's like you did this
and you did that, and you never do this. And you always do that. We
very rarely reflect on how we are showing up what we're doing, what
energy we're bringing, you know, what we're bringing out in the
person. And that's the only thing we can really change, isn't it?
It's kind of how we are, well, we're doing Subhanallah Okay, so I
love that hack. That's a that's a that's a beautiful one. Mashallah.
And I hope that that becomes the Twitter phrase, because, you know,
that's something that, that really, again, you know, part of
why I wanted to have these conversations with people like you
is so that the, you know, the younger generation coming up, can
hopefully get a more balanced expectation of what will be
required to have a happy marriage and inshallah one that lasts.
Inshallah. Yeah, exactly. Right. And, and even even, right, phrases
like, you know, understanding what is a happy marriage? And, you
know,
talk, talk that talk, what are your thoughts on that? It's okay,
it's a safe space.
To be honest about this, what is the marriage anyway? Yeah, so I
mean, you know, just, I mean, putting marriage aside for a
second, just understanding happiness, like, you know, that.
So I remember one, one of my teachers mentioned once that,
to us, a lot of my teachers mentioned this, and it's something
that I've just for many years I've just held on to,
and it's helped me in, in every relationship, right, which is
that, you know, if you attach your happiness to one single thing, or
one single person, then you are going to be extremely
disappointed, slash unhappy. Wow. Right. Because you say that again,
then another, let's say that again, for those in the back,
because that is gold that is called please, please say that
again. So if you attach your happiness to one single thing, or
one single person, then you are going to be left extremely
unhappy, unsatisfied, and the list goes on, right. And the Islamic
perspective on this is because we are supposed to attach our hearts
to the Eternal One, the divine one, right. And if we attach our,
our, our hearts, to the eternal, Allah, then we can never be
disappointed. And we can never be left unsatisfied, right? Because
that is what we need to fill any gaps that we have in our lives.
Now I know that
you know, I can say that all day long, and like HIPAA, it's not
easy. And I am, I do love this person. And that's just fine. You
know, you want to love that person, you have love for them,
you have a level of closeness to them a relationship and
attachment, you miss them if they're not at 100 us, and those
are all perfectly normal, natural emotions to feel Islam is not
against that. Right, it didn't come to stop your emotions, etc,
etc. But what we're saying is, if you're like, you know, what, and
this is again, the Hollywood spective, right, that I would die
without this person. Right, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah, I
mean, that's really unhealthy to think about, like, Yeah, I miss
this person, whatever, that's fine. But to be like, You know
what, that's it if If this ends my life is over, finished, right?
Because you've attached everything. Yeah, you keep using
the word attachment and that's when it keeps making me think of a
negative and unhealthy attachment. Yeah, I think also within our
cultures even there is this idea that you know, if you really loved
him, or if you really loved her, you couldn't live without him. You
couldn't live without her you know, and again, one of one of the
things that I know we're going to talk about so much more on this
show is really the brainwashing I'm sorry. The brainwashing that
we have especially our generation has had as Muslims and of course
they've been having for a bit longer but as Muslims I think
probably my um, Gen X Gen X Millennials with we are the ones
in the source you know, who've kind of been brought up on the
Disney fairy tales, you know, on all the teenage romances you know,
all the all the all the stuff right? So I really appreciate I
felt that in my heart, that
distance and it's not a bad detachment or towards a healthy
detachment from an outcome in a way because you loving a person
and you missing them when they're not there. And then you you know,
you
Having so much respect and regard for them? Yeah, it's one thing and
like you said, Hamdulillah that Allah put about the ability for us
to do that in our hearts, right? I lost planet, Allah gave us the
capability to do that. And it's okay just do that. But don't
expect a particular outcome as a result as in if I love this person
this much, they will never leave, you know, they will be by my side,
always and kind of like you said, this unhealthy attachment. And if
they say this, or they do that, I can't be happy. I can't, you know,
I can't, you know, carry on I, you know, I can't function I can't
focus. Because like you said, it's almost like you're giving the keys
to your happiness to somebody else. And you're saying, you
better make sure you do right with these? Because I want to be happy.
That's the agreement here. I don't know. SubhanAllah. Interesting to
do.
You're literally playing with fire. Right? So it's so dangerous
to put yourself in that position. And I think that's why there has
to be a balance like you said, nothing wrong with you know, the
prophesy, salam, many years, many years after his, his wife Khadija,
the man had passed away, he would mention her, remember her, honor
her relatives, right? You know, like, that kind of thing. So,
nothing wrong with missing someone. Right? Nothing wrong with
that. But it's, it's about how you how you approach it, but because
the process and we didn't attach everything to her, he loved her.
And he missed her. Right? Severely seriously. But Allah, Samantha was
always number one, right? And he knew Allah will take care of her,
and Allah will take care of him.
So So I mean, whether it's in the context of marriage relationships
that we're talking about now, which is very common, or it's a
con in the context of just the materialistic world that we live
in, where people attach their hearts to cause or wealth for
whatever, right. And if they lose that, that's it. Same thing,
right? fall into depression, basically, because that's missing
from their lives. So we have to just make sure right, that even
this whole, you know, coming back to the what was talking about the
understanding of happy marriage, right, the understanding of what
makes you happy. And the understanding even of what love
is, it really needs to be discussed, because there's so many
levels of of love, right? And it's interesting, because like, you
know,
as you know, sinema, like I've I've written on Surah Yusuf right.
And so there's really interesting part in the story. Most people
know about this, the minister's wife and Prophet Yusuf Ali.
Salaam, right? So she became infatuated by him, and Allah
subhanaw taala. When he describes the feeling that she had, he says,
cut the shovel for her.
Right? So there's two words used hope, which a lot of us are
familiar with, which means love. And then he uses another word shut
off, right? So the, the common translation is, you know, how hot
was, you know, she was overtaken by love, were overtaken by an
infatuation. But the word Chava that Allah using the Quran is
really interesting, because nowadays, that same word is used
for it's, it's like a medical term pericardium so it's the, it's the
layer of like membrane that covers the heart. It's a, it's like a
covering over the heart. If Allah says that, that love penetrated
that covering in her heart, right?
And that's the kicker. But remember, you have to understand
this as a married woman. You know, and accepted. There's so much
riding on this she's a woman of power as well. Last time sorry, my
knowledge this is completely because you didn't even know you
properly use the varicella and you just saw him and she was like,
That's it game over Sapan Allah actually love Allah is referring
to here just because you saw the word hug in the verse doesn't mean
love. Allah is actually criticizing this type of love
saying this is complete lust and infatuation. She was overtaken in
that moment. Yeah. And she was like, I need to do something,
right. I mean, imagine that that moment, she forgot that she was
even married, she forgot what was she forgot all of the
consequences. She was like, Okay, I see this in front of me. This is
what I want. And imagine how many of us experienced that on a daily
when we see something, you know, again, away from marriage and
relationships, you're shopping and you see this, right? And that's
it. You're like, I don't have enough money in my account. But I
need to get it. Yeah, right. I have to buy and so I'll go into
debt. Because that thing and that's the world we're living in
now where things are consuming our hearts and on a on a deeper level,
you know, a person train you know, someone that you don't barely
know, someone that you know, you need to have value for. You're
just you're willing to just whatever right go any any means.
And so I think that understanding needs to be there that what is
love even or is it is this feeling that I have is it just
infatuation, right? Is it just lost
desire. This is I think, Gary Chapman talks about this actually,
in
things I wish I'd known before I married you. I think that's the
name of the book. But he talks about how common it is for non
Muslim couples to date for a while, then get engaged, get
married. And then after the marriage, they one day wake up,
and they look at each other. And they're like, you've changed.
You're not the person I knew, you know, you're not the guy like
married. And what he was explaining is that that whole
dating process and the engagement and everything, that's all lust,
infatuation, the butterflies, the romance, that you know, that it's
a different set of chemicals, shall we say?
And then once but the thing is, chemically and biologically, those
chemicals are meant to incite desire, so that procreation can
take place, and then oxytocin takes over, then it's time to, to
nest and settle down and like look after children. So the
butterflies, you don't expect them to last, the last, the infatuation
the passion, even sometimes, you know, biologically, it's not meant
to last this is what he was saying. Any biologists can just
like, you know, just mentioned that says, I think you've got the
wrong end of the stick. But this is this is what he was saying is
that, but because Western culture and maybe all our cultures, who
knows at this point, right? But because Western culture has taught
us that love, is the passion is the infatuation is the lust, when
those chemicals kind of cease and things calm down, we feel like
we've fallen out of love. And now we feel like, oh, I don't love you
anymore, when actually that wasn't love anyway, that was the fields,
okay, now, it's built, you're building something, you know, and
that love is based a lot more on trust, and loyalty and respect.
And, and, you know, mutual regard and treating each other well, you
know, the boring stuff, right? But it's really interesting how, as we
were talking about sort of films and music and everything, it's
that first kind of high phase that is made, we believe it's love. And
if we don't feel that then even us as Muslims, we're like, I don't
love him. But what we're really referring to is that chemical high
that dopamine hit, right, I don't know whether you what are your
thoughts on that? And that process that you're describing another
dating process all of that before marriage? That you know that's not
real, it's not real because you were to complete different people
you put on your best self you know, to you're you're trying to
impress someone so you're not going to actually be yourself
right throughout that entire process up until the wedding.
Right you are actually tough so So like you said one day you wake up
you look at me like you're not the person I married they actually are
not professing to be married.
Yeah, because you know, all of the mask has slipped the mask has
slipped all of the fancy stuff the romantic gestures you know, the
way you even dressed and everything that all disappears all
of a sudden after you get married okay, we call it the honeymoon
period or phase right now after that kind of dies away. That's it.
It's like now itself so where do we go from here? Yeah, it's real
life now. No one prepared you for that. No one nobody prepared you
for that. Yeah, exactly. prepared you for doing the thing. You know,
your duty.
You can care of the other person putting the other person first.
Yeah. You know, sacrifice. Oh my gosh, dare we say?
You know, but I see because hamdulillah was married for 15
years. I am blessed to have friends who have been married 20
years, 25 years, 30 years even mashallah Tabata cola. And I can
safely say
it's not the fields that keeps them together, you know, and it's
not never having issues. It's not never having gone through
anything. It's that that foundation is built on a sense of
purpose, a sense of mission, intentionality, family, duty
responsibility, building something.
And of course compatibility, Mashallah.
You know, I think that's, I mean, I mean, let's, let's, let's open
that up, actually, because this is something that a system message
messaged me, and she was telling me how she married her brother,
I'm going to her full story because we can't really give her
anything specific. But the main thing was, is that she said he's a
good brother. Our families were happy with the match. But there is
no chemistry between us, and we have nothing to talk about. It's
five months in. What should I do?
Interesting.
The reason I'm asking about her is this issue of compatibility, and
even attraction because I
I remember another Imam I was speaking to said, Look, all of
these checklists that a lot of people have most of that stuff. In
the, at the end of the day, that's not what makes a marriage viable.
What is What does make it viable is Dean, character and attraction.
So he added attraction to that. And I was thinking to myself, I
wonder whether all learned people would add attraction with some
say, That's negotiable. Like it's okay, if it's there. It's okay. If
it's not there, like, what's your position?
I think attraction is mentioned attraction is super important. I
think it's mentioned a lot because of that famous Hadith of the
process. And where he mentioned, Jamal, he mentioned the beauty.
And in this in this context, he was addressing male companion, so
he was talking in the context of when you look to marry a woman,
usually you would look at these areas and the beauty and the
attraction was was one part, right, which is super important.
And I think I would, I would definitely add it there. But I
know it's not going to apply to every single person. Because, you
know, some people are kind of, like, that's not a huge thing.
Yeah, they're looking for other things. Right. But, you know, I
think it'd be very difficult to I mean, I'd say that's rare. I mean,
I think, you know, most guys are looking for some level of
attraction. And I'm sure one thing they will propose without the
attraction, I think that I think that that's the maybe the, the,
the difference is that
if the man does not find the woman attractive, the likelihood of him
even proposing marriage is low. Whereas if she doesn't find him
attractive, it's not always correlating. Is it? Because he may
find her attractive and not the other way around? In which case,
she kind of has to make some kind of well have some kind of
discussion, I guess, in her head to say, Should I wait for it to
develop? You know, should we give it a chance anyway? Or is it like,
Nope, that's, that's a deal breaker for me. SubhanAllah. But,
so So you know, that that coupled with the attraction coupled with
the process, and also I mentioned, family, so even though he
mentioned, like lineage, but it's a bit different? It, you know,
that's quite, we would say, includes, you know, family and
things like that, which is important to also what does that
mean, when you say, look at family? What does that mean? What
does that mean? So, for me, there's a couple of things you
look at number one,
because yes, I mean, from a strictly kind of Islamic legal
point of view, right? You know, that when the discussion of
compact compatibility sorry, arise, a lot of it is also about,
are you compatible in terms of your cultures, etc, etc. Now, it
doesn't mean that Islam forbids marrying outside of the culture,
which is obviously a really bad cultural practice in many
cultures, right. But what it means is that you got to consider that,
and I completely understand that, right makes it you know, in the
most basic of things, like whether it's language, whether it's food
or things like that people's cultures can be tough people's got
a lot to deal with. And if you're not from that culture, yes, it's
simply another thing to kind of deal with, isn't it? Not
necessarily a deal breaker, but it's an added potential pressure?
Yeah. So So So that's from a fit point of view, but just generally,
so that is one thing you got to look at, like, for example, I'm
from, you know, so and so is from Pakistan. Right. And I'm looking
at marrying, And subhanAllah the crazy thing is that, even if
you're from the same country, right, you know, it's still not
enough nowadays, right? Because you got to look at, you gotta go
deeper than that. Right? You know, even sometimes it boils down to
the village and yeah, we didn't know this. Yeah. Right. So culture
Hold on a second that marrying from the village. Okay, obviously,
I'm not Asian. So yeah, I assumed that that was in order to create
closer ties with people back home in that same village to make that
village stronger in some way. Is that not the understanding? Was
that what's the what's the, what's the reason why from back home and
from as well now, nowadays, it's got nothing to do with that a lot
of it's just about, it's just again, it's more of the the family
involved, the parents, the elders that are involved, and they have
this kind of, you know, I think for them, it's a safety net. Like,
this is why we know these people Yeah, and if anything happens,
like we know, these people, like these are our people, you know, we
can deal with anything and there's an understanding there and we're
on this kind of same fat, it's that comfort zone rice. I know
these people these are, these are that's it I don't know anyone else
outside of that. So, you know, even though they're not saying
they're against you marrying outside of that, but inside
they're like, I really would like you to just marry within this
race. It's really it's a really weird one. Alhamdulillah I think
we're slowly moving away from it now, but it will still depends on
your family and
What have you but we are slowly moving away from it genuinely
globalized, we become the going to be an issue. When I see, you know,
Gen Xers or Millennials once the millennials, children are getting
married the hollows, there's no conversation about back home.
Yeah. But you know, I remember my my good friend, first of all,
well, your co host at elmfield, I've asked my barkatullah was
talking about why her husband's mother preferred for him to marry
an Indian. And it was because she couldn't speak English. And she
wanted a daughter in law that she could see as her own daughter, and
speak in her language and feel comfortable and also for the
children to know the language. So I get it, I don't think it's, it
makes sense if you're looking at it from from that person's point
of view. But as you say, as the culture becomes diluted, and more
globalized, those types of things just won't be an issue anymore.
Like language, for example, how many people are speaking their
native language to their children anymore? I'm almost done. But you
know, yeah, absolutely. So so that that's one side of it, you know,
the culture and things like that looking at so, but then the family
as well. I mean, I, I would say as well, just seeing how the family
are, what their values are, right, what their level of being is,
right? Again, we're speaking generally, because you could say,
there's many families out there that they're not really good
families, If, however, you want to define that, but the person that
you're looking at me and their daughter or their son, is anomaly
is actually really good. Yeah, we happen so often, very, very often.
So but we're talking about from a general, from a general level,
that a lot of times, yeah, the family influence is going to be
there. So naturally, and I'm looking at marrying someone, I
want to find out a bit about their families, their siblings, or
parents, and so their values. And when I get an idea of that, again,
it's not going to be a deal breaker, but it's gonna give me a
good indication because because we don't go down the whole dating
route, whatever. And, you know, everything we spoke about, that is
a huge indicator for us. Yeah. Right, that we look at that. And,
you know, that's why, you know, in many cultures, you go around,
right, you see the family together, because that gives a
really good indication and a lot of those talks whatever, many
times and it's really useful. It honestly is very useful. You come
out of that, and you're like, Yeah, I'm not too sure. Or you
come out of 100
Yeah, I can see this, yeah, this, my people, Mashallah. It makes a
huge difference. And I think, you know, that's one thing for sure
that, you know, a lot of reverts may be may not understand, as well
as born Muslims, is the role of the family, you know, those of us
who are who reverted to Islam, and maybe came from more westernized
backgrounds,
specifically from westernized backgrounds, the approach is very
individual, you know, you you date, whoever you want, you find
someone that you like, and then maybe you bring them home and say,
Dad, Mom, this is who I'm getting married to, you know. So it's
quite a different thing to to. And this is, of course, a Western
thing, because, you know, non Muslims in other parts of the
world, you know, families are involved a marriage as a union of
two families, you know, it's not just this individualist approach.
But I think, you know, like you said, having that time to kind of
vibe with your intended family and see one of the dynamics because I
think that impacts the way that we expect our marriages to go down as
well. Because if you've grown up Subhanallah life, if a Lost
Planet, Allah could bless us, with the near Atma, of being good
examples for our children, in terms of a husband and wife unit
and a family unit, they come out of that with a very healthy idea
of what marriage is, you know, they've seen the dynamics, they
seen how the husband goes about his business, how the wife goes,
how they interplay, you know, they're used to that dynamic. And
it's wonderful for them, because they have a healthy model. Right?
If on the other hand, you didn't see that growing up, you, I
believe you carry some of that, you know, I believe you carry some
of that. And it's, it's, it's helpful to know if the other
person has is carrying whatever they're carrying. Right? Yeah,
I'll give you one more example of like, just knowing the family,
like, for example, if someone in that family has already got
married, or someone has married into that family. So for example,
let's say that family already has a daughter in law. Right? That's,
that's, that's a really good, really good way of you finding out
a bit more now. Right? Like, Oh,
yeah. So it's like, okay, so she's been married into this family for
a year now. Let's see from her experience, what things have been
like right, or, you know, one of their children have got married so
you can see like, the cultural elements come into play, right.
Some families are very cultural. Okay, so
My mother's very relaxed. Okay? And and, you know, all of that
plays into this whole discussion of, you know, what the process and
mentioned as lineage, but what we're talking about as family and
that background and all of that together. So that's like just one
element with that with that attraction element with even the
background element of that person, you know, what's their? What's
their standing financially and all of that, that does that does play
a role because you can't be unrealistic going into a major
tilaka Allah, Allah and
Allah will take care of us, right? It just, it's, we can't You can't
live like that. I think when you coupled all of this together, you
know, I think we come to a question of them. Once you
establish compatibility, I would say chemistry is something
different. So you've got now compatibility versus to chemistry,
right? Because just because you're compatible, it doesn't necessarily
mean that the chemistry is going to be there. Okay. Yeah. Which,
which again, now? It's like, Oh, my God. Now I need to think about
that. Right? You could be from the same village. Yeah, you could be
from the same village speak the same language and all of that.
Yeah. But you sit together? Nothing. Yeah, you're just lying.
Right? So this is boring, crying, not feeling. Yeah, feeling it?
Yeah.
It's actually a miracle that so many people do get married, if you
think about it, because there's so many different elements that need
to kind of align, in order for a couple to feel comfortable to say,
I'm going to commit to this person and you know, build a family with
them. And Hamdulillah, how do they live? I'm glad I you know, one of
the things, I am actually so grateful that the Dean gives us
the blueprint that we have, because I see what's happening
sort of in the world out there. Because if you look at sort of
prior the 1960s, you know,
people around in the UK, in the US in the West, in general, they did
things a lot like us, you know, there'll be chaperones, you know,
there would be intentions of marriage, you know, you'd go and
ask the Father to take the girl out, you know, it was, it was a
lot more civilized, shall we say? Now, it's just a free for all,
it's literally just an open market. And, and people are
suffering, because they can't make sense of it, you know, and, and
weigh up, you know, desires versus, you know, kind of, you
know, eventual goals in your life and, you know, mistakes that you
make now that follow you later and dating and you know, all of that
stuff. You know, it's panela, I'm, I'm grateful that we as Muslims
don't have to deal with that mess. And how? Well hamdulillah and it's
all there, right? Like you said, the blueprint is there. And what a
lot of people do is they just jump into marriage without knowing any
of this stuff. And this is why conversations like these podcasts,
classes, books, there's so many resources out there
that most married couples,
they don't even consider. It's not even, it's not even, they're not
even thinking about it. It's just for them. It's about No, I know,
we're gonna get married, we'll figure things out kind of thing.
They don't even think about let me educate myself, right? Because
then later on, all of these discussions come up, and they're
like, I don't know, you know, what to do in this case? So I didn't
know about this. Right. So I feel like, you know, just one tip for
anyone that's considering getting married. And even if you're
already married, it's not still not too late. Is too, too, isn't
it?
Well, you know, depends on your situation, but we hope that
depends on the answer to the questions that you're gonna ask.
Yeah. Right. So that was, yeah, it's just, it's just about making
sure that you spend a bit of time educating yourself. And that's all
it is. It's, that's, you know, everything, you know, we talk
about investing in yourself, right, you got to invest in your
relationship. And part of investing in your relationship is
to take a course or to read some books and to, to learn, because
then you start thinking a bit outside the box, you start seeing
different perspectives, right. Whereas if you had, you know, had
you not done that you would have gone into the marriage, and you'd
be thinking your way, and they'd be sitting there Wait, so, you
know, like this books, like, you know, men are from Mars, Women are
from Venus. Right? You know, it's like understanding even the
opposite gender, just understanding that people don't do
that, right. Yeah, so true. And you think about it, you know, if
you grew up in a sort of Muslim Islamic environment, your dealings
with the opposite gender will be probably quite limited, right.
And you know, even if you grew up with sisters or you know, you grew
up with brothers, the understanding of why they did what
they did and kind of where that was coming from. I mean, I
remember when I read, men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, and it
was this like light bulb moment, one after the other because you
What we as women,
see as issues, you know, what we as women see, as he doesn't do
this, he never does that. And you know, he always does this, things
that become problematized in a problematized. In our minds. When
I read that book, I was like, oh, that's why he does that.
It doesn't mean what I think it means. It's like Brene Brown says
this thing, she does this, there's Netflix series, and she's talking
about Netflix talk. And she, she, she had a conversation with a
husband, where she said to him, there was something that happened
to upset by it. And she said to him, the story I'm telling myself,
is that you x y Zed, right? Because that's what it is. Your
husband does something, you start to tell yourself a story. He's
doing it because of this is because he feels like that is
because the end, you know, I did this or he's unhappy with me or
didn't come to find out. It's none of those things, you know, and
they're, you've worked yourself up into this, you know, this state,
when actually it was it was nothing like that. So that whole
men wants to fix things, you know, they want to solve things. They
want to be the Savior, you know, they want to be the the dependable
one. Yeah, that's why he keeps interrupting you says and trying
to tell you what to do when all you want to do is just talk. Yeah,
yeah. So So you see, so what I'm trying to say is that when we're
talking about educating yourself, now, when Muslims hear that, the
first thing they think of is okay, that means I got to study fic.
Right, I've got to go to an Islamic school or whatever, and
learn about the rights and responsibilities. Right. This
that, okay. See, that's what they think. But they don't they don't
understand that. No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying
just study fit. That's great. That's just one one small aspect,
right of what we're talking about here is this is another right what
we're talking about right now, you know, understanding men
understanding woman and vice versa. That's another area that
you need to look at. Right? You know, I missed a fix it. You know,
you're gonna think that your whole marriage that I need to be Mr.
Fixit, she's come to me, she's speaking to me. That must mean, I
gotta solve the problem. And then you start to understand, oh, no,
actually, she's gonna talk and I just need to hear her, I just need
to hear what she has to say. And I don't really need to offer a lot
of times the solutions
I need to do say
wow, Subhan Allah, you know, job done, give her a hug at the end of
it. Hollis, you know, as you see that. So this is like one example
of you know how I said, even if you're already married, stuff like
this, that will help you because even if you've been married for a
few years, you might come to it that you know, that realization
that Oh, so that's what I've seen. Okay, now, let me change it and
switch things up a bit. And you will see, and you know, what, as
Muslims, that's what's, that's what we're supposed to be doing,
right? We're not just supposed to just imagine it's just supposed to
be one straight line, you know, subhanAllah, like when you when
you look at the Sunnah, and you look at all of these stories of
the prophets, Allah, you know, with I, Charlotte, Atlanta, etc,
you got to understand, I mean, like those stories, there's the
ones that are romanticized. They weren't like in the honeymoon
period at the beginning of the marriage, right? These are things
that he's doing, like 10 years in his marriage. Right? Why, and you
find stories of him racing her and things like that, like that he was
doing that eight, nine years into their marriage. So that shows up
because the problem was constantly is it was supposed to go up more,
right? He's trying to invest in his marriage. And Muslims think
that the investing is done before, like we were speaking about, right
in Lima, that's when we
must be investing. And then once I'm married, that's it, you know,
just gonna go in a straight line and just keep things ticking. But
that's not the mindset. So if you can learn something during that
time, and invest in it, even better, I love that. I love that.
And I think, you know, as you've said, you know, having the
intention to, you know, keep growing in the relationship, keep
learning, keep learning each other, learning ourselves as well,
you know, becoming more self aware. I think in sha Allah can
only help the marriage, and those romantic stories from the Sierra.
Part of me wants to say, they should give us hope. Because, you
know, the example that we have is of a couple that remained friends,
you know, and that enjoyed each other, you know, for many, many
years. So it gives us hope in that regard. But it also reminds me of
what you said earlier, which is not taking those stories, as in
that marriage, and anything else is like, No, I can't settle for
that. And I can't settle for less. Just talk to that a little bit.
Yeah, because what you're then doing is you are isolating one
part of the CRR. Right, and you ignoring the rest of it. And you
know, it's exactly the same as someone capturing an image of a
man and a woman holding hands. What's the
it gone from camera around the camera, right? Like, whoa, what
amazing
company
comes back again, oh my god, like they go in Formula together,
they're holding hands. They're like, they're really enjoying this
moment. And it's like, you're not looking at any other part of that
day that they even had or the week or the year, right? You're just
like, you're fixated on that, and you're sharing it with people.
Look at this, this is what I want to do. Right? And when it comes
down when you find any married, and even if you're in Charlotte,
get to do that. Amazing. But you're ignoring everything else.
So same thing with the Syrah. And with, you know, our Islamic
tradition, you can't just sit and look at one area and be like,
right, this is it then the process, I'm had that. But then
you got to balance it out with all of the other moments where I
showed that on how I came to the house, and she was unhappy, right?
There's even one pot where there's even one incident where she had a
bowl, and she smashed the bowl. Like she literally threw it onto
the ground, right? And there's so many other instances where they
stop speaking to each other to timeout for an entire month. And
he went away from his wife, and he was like, Yep, yeah, I'm out. I'm
gonna imagine like that to that level. And there's disputes and
there's jealousy. And let's keep it real. Yeah, I think that's it.
Isn't it? Really? spyler? Yeah. So ignoring ignoring all of that.
It's just like, then you start to realize, wow, it's finally in the
process. He went through this, and he had to deal with this. And you
know, and then you start, you know, again, one part of educating
yourself before you get married is speak to people who are already
married. It's as simple as that, even if it's a friend or family
member, ask them so, you know, How's it been going? And any tips
and things like that? And they will tell you, you know, yeah, 100
Allah, things are great. But this can happen. And that can happen
and keep this in mind. And you're like, Oh, okay. But we don't do
that. It's like, it's like, it's I think it's culturally quite
sensitive. Like you don't, you don't speak to other people about
marriage or their marriage and things you don't get tips, you
know, I'm a mind I, you know, that kind of thing. I'll deal with it.
I'll sort it out when it when the time comes.
So I mean, so like, yeah, no, I hear I hear what you're saying.
And actually, what's coming to mind for me is
how common it is to hear bad stories of Muslim marriages.
Right. Yeah. And so rare to hear good ones. And I don't mean, the
couple goals, ones. I mean, like real stories, right. And people,
people, I guess, you know, as Muslims, we are private.
Understand that. But I also, I wonder whether the fact that
people tend to share bad stories, or survivors of bad situations
tend to share their stories, it creates this picture, I believe
that we are holding, like a cultural narrative at the moment
around Muslim marriage, that it's not good, that Muslim marriages is
not fun. It's hard. Muslim men are trash, you know, you know, you
know, it's hard to find good men, you know, this. I don't know, are
you? Are you seeing the same thing? Maybe I'm looking at a
different side of everything. But do you think that we as Muslims
even have sort of like a healthy and hopeful vision of marriage
from ourselves within the community? Now, definitely, it's
not just us seeing it from that perspective is, it's a very, very
common and it is unfortunate there is a negative outlook. So one
example would be
a lot of people who aren't married, or getting put off,
getting married in the first place. Because of the stories or
because of, for example, when they hear about the marriage, it's
really too late. Divorce has gone through by them. So they're
hearing about saying divorces, and divorce rates going up, and
marriage is failing in their eyes, you know, just feeling whatever
without knowing the full story. And it's like, is there any point
we're getting married? Like, you know, it just, you know, scared?
Yeah, people are really, really scared, right? I've spoken to you
guys, I'm sure you've spoken to a lot of sisters. I've seen the guys
where they're like, I don't get my why. Because, you know, like, and
these are, you know, aspects of learned people as well as things
like, fathers, you know, they're like, I don't know how to get
married. Why? Because I just can't go through that. Or, you know, I
feel like a lot of the women nowadays, you know, like, you
know, like, just how you've got the Muslim men are trash. Yeah,
the hand you've got no, the women are to this crazy.
Don't want to deal with it. Right? So, obviously, that that
perception is there. And I feel like social media really
accelerates all of that, right and always puts the negative at the
forefront, right? It's just like, you know, social media is just the
modern day version of the newspapers where the headline was
always something tension and you know,
Negative and it's always something that scare mongering fear
mongering, right? And that's just what social media is. Now, those
stories are gonna be the ones at the forefront. And people are just
like, I don't want to deal with it is scary, right? I can't blame the
unhand. Right? You know, because I can't control right what they're
feeling at that point. But at the other hand, it's got to be like,
what? I promise you, bro, like, that's not how it is, in most
marriages. This is why I'm like, can happily married people please
stand up, you know, because
you know, I was thinking about this when I was putting this
series together. And I was thinking, you know, I like I said,
most of my friends are hamdulillah married many, many, many years,
mashallah their children are now getting married, having children,
you know, and hamdulillah through the ups and downs, through the the
winters and the spring and the summer and the autumn. They are
still together and healthy. Right? So which is which is big for me,
because I think, in many cultures, that together part is more
important than the healthy part. So as long as you stay married,
yeah, it doesn't matter, like the level of dysfunction, or toxicity
or unhappiness like real unhappiness, it doesn't matter as
long as you stay married.
And I really feel that that's not going to work anymore. I think the
days of sort of those days are done. Yeah. Because, you know,
people have choices. Now, not only do people have choices, and the
Internet opened up those choices as well, like, you know, you can
just, you know, it's open things up in a way, but also people's
expectations of life in general are higher, right. So people, you
know, a few generations ago, survival was the name of the game,
you know, survival, tick off those life boxes, you know, get your
children through school, you know, educate them somehow, let them get
established and settle down. And, and now rest, you know what I
mean? So you kind of you go through school, get married, have
children, get those children through school, get them married,
rest, and, you know, no one's asking for five star experience,
we just want to survive, and we just want our children to survive,
and for them to be happily married. And you know, that's it.
Those days are gone. I think for for most of us, definitely, our
expectations of life are higher, however, that comes at a price.
Because when your expectations are too high, the risk of being
disappointed is much higher, isn't it?
Exactly. So, yeah. So like, when you say, for example, if I was to
throw around terms, like in laws or you know, stuff like that,
there's such a negative perception, like, immediately,
because the first thing that comes to your mind that Yeah, first
thing that comes to mind is the horror stories.
The oppression,
all of that. So like on social media, for example, in laws is
like an is like, every time in those I mentioned, it's negative,
it's so negative. And, again, what's putting off a lot of
sisters from getting married is I don't want to deal with in laws,
right? I've seen this a lot. It's like, you know, in laws, it's,
I've heard some horrible stories and things like that. And so like,
that's just one example. I'm just saying, like, in every area of the
marriage, in every department, it's like, negative, right? Yeah.
It's like, children, if you have children, now, look how
challenging times I do really want to deal with that and raising the
child like, you know, you're better off not. And it's going all
against, yeah, but yeah, everything. Yeah, everything that
it's supposed to be doing. And that is encouraging no Subhanallah
you know, I 100% agree with you. Because I think when I listened to
you know, Muslims having this conversation, when I listen to
Christians having this conversation, you know, most
traditional cultures and religions are based around the family unit,
right? And what will strengthen and benefit the family unit. And
unfortunately, we live in quite an anti family society, like the time
that we live in is, is all about individual happiness, individual
growth, individual success. Unfortunately, the bitter pill
that I've had to swallow is that
you can't build a strong collective with lots of ambitious
individuals, because individuals who are after their own happiness
will not sacrifice
they will not settle. They will not do the right thing rather than
the thing that feels right. They will not take on extra
responsibility. Why should I? How will that help me you know what I
mean? Is like Why Should I've heard men saying things like, I'm
not getting married? for them? It's like, what's the point? These
women are crazy, you know, and they you know, that is gonna make
my life difficult. Children are just a drain on finances. Let me
live my life and you know, have you know, what is it
Old, free agent lifestyle, and like, literally live my best life.
And I think that that's something that seeping into the Muslims as
well, because you will find sisters and maybe even brothers
saying I'll be happier on my own. Because I don't have to deal with
all that stuff. But that is such an integral part of your growth as
an adult, isn't it? Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, the statistics don't
lie. And the you know, the marriage has become not even
secondary anymore. You know, the, the, it is becoming more and more
common not to get married, especially in the Western Western
society has no value anymore, the institution of marriage has no
value. And unfortunately, that is, you know, Muslims are getting
influenced by that.
You know, maybe not for the exactly the same reasons, but for
different reasons, whatever they are.
And it's just like, well, do I need to get married? You know,
what's the bet this don't see the value in it anymore? Which is,
which is quite scary. And I think it comes again, back to what we're
talking about, which is the positives I never highlighted.
It's always the negatives, and it just puts people off. So like,
when I'm having a conversation with someone I'm like, I'm trying
to tell them and convince them that, look, this is not the
reality on the ground, man. Like I'm telling you as someone who's
married as someone who knows a lot of married people, the reality is
most marriages 100 Love. They're okay. Like, I'm not saying they're
perfect, but yeah, they're okay. Right. The good and,
okay. Yeah, to be good enough.
I mean, this is like, a big thing for me is, you know, it's okay for
it to be okay. Okay, is okay. You know what I mean? It doesn't have
to be Hamas lagoon, as they say, Egypt, you know, five star, it
doesn't have to be luxury brand. It doesn't have to be top of the
hierarchy of needs. It's okay for it to be okay. For you to have an
average marriage and average relationship. And this is a
SubhanAllah. Again, the society push towards more and better, and,
you know, just a more kind of heightened experience. But it's
hedonistic at the end of the day, isn't it? Really? Yeah. And I
remember putting a post out once about,
it was about enjoying the mundane in marriage.
It's, a lot of people are like,
mundanity? No, no. Are you really promoting like, enjoying the
Monday? I'm sorry, I'm not promoting. I'm just saying.
That's, that's the reality. Like, you're not me, like that mundane
ain't going nowhere. Okay, it's Tuesday, you might as well enjoy
it. Exactly. Right. So it's like, you know, there's going to come a
point in your marriage where, unfortunately, is you can't go on
holiday all the time. And you can't go on dates all the time.
And you should, from time to time, but he's got to you got to go to
work, you got to come back. You got to have some a meal together.
You got to just have some conversations. And that's just
what mode sometimes can be. I'm not saying it has to be like that
all the time. But okay, yes, that's fine. That's normal. Yeah,
this is the thing. It's about what you're doing really is normalizing
normal. Whereas what social media does it normalizes the fivestar
normalizes this, the superlative, right? The aesthetically pleasing,
you know, the top rated, it normalizes that, even though it's
not even the normal for the content creators themselves.
Exactly. Yeah. So what I mean, most of the time, if you're
posting the picture, for example, with your husband or wife, and
it's only going to really be when you're on holiday, or when you're
going out for a meal, or you're only going to post a picture of
like, you know, the house is a mess, and you're just sitting
there on the sofa, and you're just bored out your head like
yeah, video games, right?
No, yeah. So no, no one's gonna No one's gonna do that. So, yeah, I
think it's about enjoying, enjoy the mundane, right, having those
expectations before you go into before you go into a marriage, and
just have conversations with people who are actually married
instead of realistic taking your information from elsewhere or
social media, you know, you can't, it's such a huge decision. And
you're going to make that based on social media post or some hearsay.
That's literally all it is. Yeah.
It is. And you'll see you'll see people I'm sure, I don't know
whether brothers do this as much. But I have heard the sisters do
it. I wouldn't know because I've never been on that side of a
marriage app. But you know, the the, the the
the expectations or the hope for the relationship or kind of the
deal breakers or you know, the list.
Yeah, at this stage in my life, I'm like, No girl, please. Let's
see this stuff that you're talking about. It shows that you are
deluded, okay? Because you
Yes, these are nice to haves. But you can't make him being, you
know, us going out to eat every week or, you know, like he must
buy me things or even even you know, as far as I'm concerned,
more real world things that are also very high expectations, for
example, and I've mentioned this in other talks before, say I'm a
divorcee and I have children. And I put on my profile, I expect him
to financially support me and my children, for example. Yeah. If
you don't if you don't have the funds, like don't even swipe
right. And, yeah, it's a nice idea, sis.
But how realistic is it? I don't know. I mean, this is just me. I
know, lots of sisters disagree with me. But the whole
conversation about, you know, kind of moving on from a marriage, you
know, after a divorce, you know, with children and marrying again,
I think that we have we've hyped it as sisters, I think I think
we've hyped ourselves up. I think we've hyped our children up. And I
say this only because I've seen how difficult it is for a man to
connect with children that are not his own.
And that that's okay. You know what I mean? Like, it's not, it's
not a mark on his character. I believe it's just natural. Yes.
It's not to say he can't be nice. We could be kind to them. I don't
know. But you're the man. So you better speak on this? Because let
me be clear, let me be clear. Do you mean, do you think that that
might be one of our expectations as well as women that is maybe a
tad something that we need to look at? I don't know. Yeah, I think I
mean, personally, I would probably say, Yeah, you know, on in this
regard, probably pre marriage or looking into marriage woman
probably do have more exposure. Men are a bit more simplistic in
that regard. Right? Yeah. And we kind of all know that. It's kind
of everyone knows, men are a bit more
attracted to her. Yeah, like x y. Zed. Yeah, I'm okay with that. You
know, whereas Yeah, it's, you know, again, it's like, you know,
when we were discussing Maha, right, we clarified that, you have
every right to ask for whatever, you just gotta have an X, you just
got to be manage that expectation, right? And understand that it's
not necessarily going to be met. It's the same thing, right? Just
like Muhammad, you want to marry someone that's got this and that
and is like this, and has this quality? No problem. No one's
saying you can't, but really, all you're doing is just limiting
yourself in terms of who you're going to find. So even if it's, I
always give the example of height example. Right? So it's quite
common in some, some women that like, I want to get married to a
guy who's like, by foot something, you know, on the upper end, closer
to six, five foot some
plan, six foot plus, right? So like, maybe with Asians is
different, actually, it might be a smaller height requirement.
Shorter. I don't know, why be something like that. Five, nine.
So it's like, you know, that's not a problem. Like for you to do
that. You know, it's like, Islamically
Yeah, exactly. But when it comes to when it comes down to it on,
you know, reality is that you just restricting yourself, right? You
know, and there's less guys are gonna fight now. Right? And then
you're gonna say, oh, it's really difficult to get married or to
find someone, okay? Because you need to kind of write you need to
look at other areas. You know, if that's a deal breaker for you,
then it's a bit of a tough one then, isn't it? Your deal
breakers, you should have deal breakers, for sure. But yeah, it
shouldn't necessarily be things like height, or it has to be 100%
attraction level needs to be like this. These are unrealistic. I
agree. And I think definitely, there needs to be a baseline for
everyone. Right? No matter who you are, no matter, your educational
background, aesthetically, kind of where you are, you know, what kind
of family you come from your marital situation. I think
everybody has to have a baseline right, and has to have those deal
breakers because
I don't know how far you can say that anyone deserves anybody else
or something that they may want. But at base I think we all deserve
at least to be treated kindly and with respect, right? Yeah. So no
matter who you are, you deserve somebody who's going to be nice to
you. At the very least, right? You know, he's got decent deen and
he's in it for the right reasons. And he's going to be nice.
Let's start from there. You know, like let's start from there and
then we can see all right, everything else is a conversation
right? But anyway Hamdulillah
you know, it's
it's, it's been so so good speaking to you Mashallah. And
we've covered an amazing array of topics, but I know that you
launched a beautiful book, just under a month ago, I think. Tell
us about the book inshallah. I want to hear more
More about this beautiful work that you've done. Yeah. So it's
actually called a beautiful patience. And if we're talking
about marriage then obviously suburb patience is something that
you need a lot of right?
And yeah, I mean that the title of the book is actually it's it comes
from that famous expression in Surah Yusuf which is Southern
Jamil. A lot of you probably heard of it, you've probably been told,
you know, made dua for you May May Allah grant us southern Jimmy, may
Allah grant you a beautiful patience, right? So I just for me
that that expression in the Quran was so was so powerful. And the
Surah Surah Yusuf is so powerful. And you know, I I don't exaggerate
when I say that Saudis have changed my life and the lessons of
the story and everything. It impacted me so much over the
years. Because it's the most detailed story in the Quran,
right? Yeah. And it's just so amazing how Allah shows us takes
us through the story of this young boy, who then becomes a prophet
eventually, but goes through so many struggles. But then 100 That
comes out on top and Allah honors him right, not only in this life
by giving him powerful position and noble family and half the
words beauty and all of that. But in the Hereafter, we know his rank
and status, right? So for me, I decided to have to write this
book, consider use of not because there's so many works out there,
that we would call this a Tafseer work, right? So I've seen meeting
is like commentary of the Quran, right? collate is very academic in
that sense. So for me, my goal was, I don't want to write
something which is academic, I want to write something which is
more relevant, right? For for, for anyone out there, that's just
struggling, that's, that's, you know, struggling to connect with
the Quran, right?
I want to write something which is just going to be straight to the
point and allow you even if you don't have any Arabic or anything,
right, allow you to access the Quran, and this story. So the way
they've done it 40 Life lessons is basically 40 short chapters in the
book. And each one is a life lesson from Surah Yusuf. So an
example of that would be patience, gratitude, remaining optimistic,
good character, controlling your anger, like, all of those kinds of
things, right.
And each chapter
includes a lesson. And it's kind of telling the story along the
way, as well. So you're learning the story, and you're learning
along the way. And, and that's really so Hamdulillah. That was,
like you said, like, just just over a month ago that came out?
And, yeah, it's always actually been
something that I've always wanted to share I've been working on for
the last couple of years, and I've spoken to you about it as well, a
while back, and yeah, it's just, you know, Russia, you know, the
feeling of putting a book out. It's amazing, right? It really is.
And it's, it's one of those things, you know, may Allah accept
your work. And to make it a source of benefit for, you know, hundreds
and 1000s and 10s and hundreds of 1000s of people, I mean,
because for sure, one of you know, one of the most beautiful things
about putting a book out into the world is, you know, being able to
change the lives of people that you will never see, you know, that
will you will never get to meet them, you'll never never know you,
but your words have touched them. And I think that's a massive
privilege and a great gift. So where can people find the book? So
they can actually purchase it directly from Surah yusuf.com. I'm
really glad I got that domain. I don't know how, wow, Mashallah.
Reserve that a few years ago, but yeah, sudo uses.com. Go on there.
I've got blog and you know, if you want to get a feel of the book and
lessons on there, but yeah, you can order directly from the
inshallah. Wonderful, we'll put the links to all of that in
description. And what about the Nikka work that you do? Tell us?
Yeah, so in the Koco start was established just over five years
ago, one of the main things behind it was, you know, world is
changing, you know, there was a time where, like, you said things
a lot more simpler. You just go to your local Masjid get any cat done
with the Imam and that's kind of it right? But now Subhanallah
there's a lot more Muslims, some populations grown. And it's just I
think we're at a stage now where there's so many venues and holds
people getting married in those venues, schools wherever must do
that home even, and they need Imams to come up to them.
And that's what we do. So we have a small team of Imams that
mashallah slightly on the younger side that we offer professional
service within the car, which means that we come out we have the
consultation and help you plan any car on the day conducted speech
and everything Quran recitation, translated into English give a
relevant reminder. So a lot of things we spoken about, you know,
we help educate at the same time and you get your certificate and
all of that. So yeah, at the moment, it is mainly in the UK so
all around the UK, we offer the service and like we've said, over
the last five years into nearly 600 knickers, old weddings all of
all over the joint and
I'm so humbled that that that has been an amazing blessing to be
part of someone's wedding, Dave. And Anita is just like your dean
helped them broken the deal, how
to be part of that humbled me. So, yeah, it's just been a great honor
and privilege to be part of mica. Mashallah. And what's one piece of
advice that you would give to a young couple starting out in their
married life, or nice,
I would say, I mean, there's so many areas that we've touched on
today, whether it's attaching not attaching your heart to one
person, and so on.
But I guess one thing that I would say, is, probably would come down
to expectation really, we've already kind of spoken about in
detail. But it's, it's something that I always mentioned, which is
your expectations should be realistic, it shouldn't be super
high when you're going into a marriage. And you should
understand that the person that you're marrying, there's a lot to
learn about them, there's a lot that they need to learn about you.
And this is just the beginning of the journey, right? The
expectation cannot be that you're going to go from zero to 100. Like
that, within the first few months. In fact, I would say I would argue
that the honeymoon period that that is in the Western world, it's
cool, I would say it's probably the most crucial and most
challenging even time you could you could argue because that's the
time where you really need to settle into things and your
expectation can't be this is how my marriage is going to be for the
rest of the the years that we're going to spend together. Right,
that's actually a time where you need to enjoy it celebrate. But,
you know, kind of ground yourself as well and learn about the other
person. So yeah, I think just manage expectations going into the
marriage. And as part of managing expectations, I would just add
quickly, that in Sharla have a very kind of positive mindset to
begin with. Right? That's part of the expectation and what I mean by
that is that mindset needs to be carried through because a lot of
times the mind is very powerful thing we know this right? And in a
marriage if you just have that you know inshallah Allah will take
care of things. I'm going to try my best I'm gonna give it my own
Shala they're going to do the same. It's really powerful that
positive mindset will carry you through Inshallah, but even in
those moments of uncertainty difficulty you know, challenging
times you will remind yourself it's okay you know, like Charla
will get through this and so on. So I think yeah, that's that's
probably how I would sum up that one piece of advice inshallah. I
love that advice, Mashallah. They just encouraging and beautiful
patients, you know, in out there who is embarking on this wonderful
journey, so I really hope that you know, where can people find you
before we sign off? Where can people find you?
I mean, social media, you can either just type in my name should
be a hustler need, I'm on Instagram, and I think Instagram
is pretty active at the moment, as well as Twitter and things and
yeah, I'd love to connect, whether it's questions or however it is,
and you know, the book related and the cat related hamdulillah so
whatever it may be, just connect with me on on the socials. And,
you know, Inshallah, yeah, you know, as you know, it's always a
pleasure to meet new people, even if we can never meet each other in
person like, you know, it's, it's, it's still nice to connect
virtually right Inshallah, definitely mashallah I 100% agree,
and all the links to all of severes socials and the book, the
wonderful domain that he got for himself will be in the link a
below inshallah.
We would love to hear what your biggest takeaways from this
conversation were, you know, it's been we've enjoyed the
conversation. We hope you have had
an insightful time with us and Inshallah, please do like and
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your comments below with what you thought of this video and anything
else you'd like us to cover in these conversations. The marriage
conversation with name upbeat Robert, and until the next episode
should be just like aloha and I thank you so much for being here
with me and being one of the guests.
One of the first guests mashallah and may Allah subhanaw taala bless
all your work, bless you and your family in every single way. I
mean, I mean particle effects. Thank you so much. It's been an
absolute honor, and I really enjoyed our conversations. I
really hope that inshallah can benefit and inspire a lot of
people