Naima B. Robert – The {VIRTUAL} Salon Sexual Abuse in the Muslim Community Pt 1
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Bismillah salam Wa alaykum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh.
Welcome to this week's virtual salon. Thank you so much. For
those of you who are returning to the salon, it's wonderful to have
you with us. And if this is your first time joining us, then please
be so so welcome. The virtual salon is a safe space for Muslims,
Muslim intellectuals, academics, activists, creatives to come
together to discuss some of the most important issues affecting
our communities today. And today's topic is an extremely important
topic, a topic that has come to light recently, but has been
bubbling away under the surface for hundreds of years. And that
topic, if not 1000s, actually, that topic is sexual abuse. So I'm
your host name would be Robert and today I'm joined by an amazing
panel of guests and I will allow them to introduce themselves when
they start, you know, having the discussion in sha Allah. But my
first question for any one of the panelists is, let's let's start
with getting our terms. Right. Okay. What is sexual abuse? What
counts as sexual abuse? What doesn't count as sexual abuse?
What are we actually talking about here today? With anybody you'd
like to answer that question and and really concise way that we'll
all be shy now. This is the virtual Cylon. Wait. Okay, go. So
sexual abuse refers to any sexual acts against someone that I
haven't given consent to. And you've got, I've did some notes,
actually, because it's really good to have your notes and
give all your parts. So you've got two types of sexual abuse. So
you've got sexual abuse, where someone has actually been either
touched physically, either through penetration, or you've got other
sexual abuse where a child may or person may have been asked to
strip for camera. So they haven't actually been touched that simply
fine. It really because in the short time we've got, we're not
going to be able to do it, you know, the justice that we need to,
and hopefully this will be the start of many
webinars to come. But that's simply fine. That's what it is. So
if anybody would like to I don't know if anyone else would like to,
you know, input on that. So basically, what we're talking
about today is any kind of sexual activity. That is non consensual.
Are we are we agreed on that, guys. Okay, cool. So let's, let's
take this right to the nitty gritty. Okay, I think most of you
know, kind of, yes, yes. So they had to add to add to it. I'm
speaking specifically of childhood sexual abuse, and it's when any
adult or older teen where they force or coerce or bargain or trip
or manipulate a child into sexual any form of sexual activity where
they want to receive gratification on sexual gratification. So we
have sexual abuse, where there includes touching and penetration.
And then there's also forms that that there's no physical contact
whatsoever, as the sister was mentioning earlier, voyeur is
*, making a child watch *, or making a child
watch you masturbate? You know, I'm performing, you know, of
course, we know direct contact, sexual *. You know, *
trafficking is definitely a form of sexual abuse, you know, any
type of any type of sexual contact, obscene phone calls, you
know, as they call it, the phone * found doing *. So
it's a very bored broad range, because, and that's so important
for us to know, because a lot of times, children don't may not even
realize that they were at all adults. And children don't realize
that they've been sexually abused, because there's no physical
contact. So Oh, we didn't penetrate. So I wasn't sexually
abused. Oh, we only made me watch a video. So I wasn't sexually
abused. Oh, he was only 15. And I was 12. So that's not sexual
abuse. So, you know, I wanted to just, you know, add that point to
the conversation. Do you think as well see, so that's because the
way that it's portrayed as well, by society, that unless someone's
penetrated, we have this, this mindset that it's not actually
abuse. So obviously, if that's what's ingrained in people
ingrained in families, generation, upon generation, then, like you
said, someone may not even realize actually they have been abused.
Absolutely, and because of our unfortunate
discomfort in speaking about this topic, and because of the hush
hush in our culture, where especially in the Muslim
community, we don't talk about *, we don't talk about the body.
We don't talk about what sexual abuses, we don't want to talk
about it, many of us don't. And with prevention, we can.
Education can provide prevention as possible through education. But
we have to know exactly what it is. And there's a lot of
organizations out here, including my very own organization, but he
speaks where we provide the education so that people can know
and people can understand and, you know, humbly last name for you
know, bringing this to the masses. Mashallah, I just want to jump in
there because you mentioned the Muslim culture. And obviously,
this virtual salon is for Muslims to talk about Muslim issues. Okay.
And from a holistic perspective. So, if you maybe any of the
panelists would like to speak either from their expertise or
their experience, what are some of the, what are some of the issues
that we as Muslim communities face in particular, when it comes to
addressing this issue of sexual abuse? Sister, Sharia mentioned
how Muslims don't like to talk about *, and this is true, okay.
There is a shame there, somebody in the in the court in the
comments just mentioned shame. And obviously, that's a huge part of
it. But if you if my panelists would like to kind of go into
that, because you're from a variety of backgrounds, obviously,
expertise, etc. So what is happening in the Muslim community
that is making it even harder for us to tackle this issue? Go ahead.
I think definitely, that we have this culture where we shouldn't
say anything. So you can't expose that person. You can't say what
that person's done. And this has been drummed into us so much, that
we almost start to believe the rhetoric and in my, in my line of
work, what I've come across, I've come across people where their
main priority is to protect the perpetrator, and not the person
who's been abused. So for instance, they'll say, Well, let's
think about the bigger picture. So forgetting the bigger picture is
you can't bring the masjid down, you can't talk about the Imam like
that. So we'll sacrifice that child will handle that child out
to dry will keep that child quiet, in the name of, you know, almost
protecting Well, that's what it is. It's protecting and colluding
with the perpetrators. So this is something that we come across a
lot. Also, in the borough that I mean, one of the big problems we
come across is not just within the Muslim community, but also with
our local authorities. Again, it's such a panel like such a
minefield, but again, we have that problem where they see a black
victim or an Asian victim as less than a white victim. Wait, break
that down, hold on a minute, that's a big thing to say. Okay,
so
what's the proof for the victim? I'll explain what I mean. So if
you have a look at when newspapers report about sexual exploitation,
for instance, or B, Asian gangs grooming white girls, right, okay,
that sells papers, it's an you know, it's sensational, isn't it,
he doesn't have the same ring as Asian man, grooms black girl, or
black man grooms black girl, it doesn't have the same, you know,
impact. He doesn't sell papers. But this is not a true model.
There is a model that happens like that, but it is not a true
reflection. And in fact, there is somebody that has joined and
hopefully they'll be able to elaborate more on this in the
after discussion, who actually was involved in a lot of work in
Rotherham, etc. But one of the things that was never mentioned
was the fact that there was also Black and Asian girls that were
part of those rings that were being groomed. Wow, that was never
ever mentioned. When you mentioned that to me. I remember when we
spoke before this session, actually, I was shocked because it
was very much told the story structure was predator Asians,
Asian predators, you know, grooming white girls specifically.
And you know, the whole story of you know, they wouldn't do that to
their own etc. So it becoming very much a racialized thing actually,
so Subhanallah the fact that that wasn't the full picture. That's
something that I don't think most people know. But like what's going
on? What what is it? Is it a media thing? Is it ideas about our
culture's or is it that black girls are considered sexual
anyway? Or sexualized anyway, what is actually going on? Yeah,
definitely. I think that is looked at that black black women or black
girls are more sensual. And, you know, that easy game. You know,
I've had young Asian girls told me that
When they've spoken to social services, and may have talked
about, you know, a family member abusing them, it's been well, you
know, I don't know why you're making a big fuss of it, you will
end up marrying your cousins anyway. If you've got social
workers, and if you've got people like social workers or local
authority and police who speak to victims like this, then, you know,
what kind of chance do they actually have. But definitely the
rhetoric is, if you're black, you're more likely to be a
perpetrator, than you are a victim. So I can only speak about
my experience and in the work that I've done, you know, with my young
people, I want to just jump over to Sofia for a second Inshallah,
because I think this issue of, you know, the bigger picture, and you
know, really, like you said, almost just just just don't make a
big deal, because the after effects will be much worse, and
then link of his family and the message in his reputation. Is this
a problem in the Somali community, Sofia, specifically, since you
know, I know that you work with many different communities, but
maybe speak to us from about your community in particular. So slowly
come to, to everyone. And just like last night for doing this
session, I worked for a women's organization based in East London,
specifically in Tower Hamlets. And I guess, each community has its
dynamics and barriers and challenges. And actually, what
upsets me more is actually when certain communities believe or
have this concept that they are far from it, but it's not them.
It's other people. And I think unless you change that mindset,
you know, you can't you can't prevent it, you can't be alerted
to it, you can't support someone. Because if you really believe that
we're immune to it. And actually, just like Jumilla, just
committed sort of just highlighted, it's really important
to note that, that actually, for the victim, it's extremely hard.
And it's dynamics, and mostly it's about the family, it's internal.
You often don't hear about external. You know, it's not
interesting when I had a chat with with Camilla this week, it wasn't
often it's not external perpetrator, it's actually
internal. And that's because I think, you know, it's the fact of,
if we're in the same household, you know, you're the uncle, you're
the auntie, we're all okay. And it really isn't. The biggest thing
that we've seen, I guess, in the last few weeks is the huge
awareness of victims, speaking out about their, their challenging
outs, obviously, a trauma that they've gone through, and they're
repeating a trauma, and I'm really, I deliver a number of
different mental health courses, specifically, specifically the the
trauma element, it's not good to talk about the trauma generally.
However, I think it's sparked a discussion that, that here we are,
I guess, I get as a community as a part of the community, we're
having that discussion. And when you listen to the people that have
come to us in terms of our organization, and you hear their
story, it's very much about I went to my auntie or I went to my
mother or I told some about my experience, and that rejection of
not being believed or was more traumatic for the individual,
because then it means that you're carrying this trauma. And instead
of having someone talking to you, or actually overcoming the trauma
or the challenge, or the abuse that you've experienced, it means
that now you're carrying it, and then you're sort of that that is
probably more painful for most of the people that we support that
have come up and even when you listen to people's real stories,
and I think, as a nation, we need to really make it clear. And I
think the real discussion, if I'm being honest, it's about parents,
knowing how to protect their children, it's about parents
actually been alerted to what is child abuse, like, you know, it's
not just the physical. And I've heard people saying, Oh, he hasn't
done it, you know, fully so it's surely it's nothing to them, you
know, don't dwell over it, don't talk about it. And for me, the
highest issue is the almost there is a blame factor, whether we like
it or not on the victim, are ye What did you do? Or oh my god for
the rest of your life, you'll be known as the person that was
raped? Do you really want people to know that? Do you know your
future husband to know that you were raised to you're not a virgin
or whatever that might be? So I think we need to have those
discussions. But let me tell you one thing in the UK, back home in
Africa, wherever it might be around the world, it happens. So
please don't start saying, Oh, this doesn't happen to us. It's
far from and know that it actually happens in every community. I just
need to jump quickly to I just would like to quickly jump and
bring into Rosaleen here because Rosaline, you deal with your rapid
transformation therapist, you deal with trauma, especially childhood
trauma. So just because I mean, this virtual salon, you know, it's
kind of it's for grown people, really many of us have children,
many of us have older children. And so really the focus of this,
this session is really for parents to become aware for parents to
know what sexual abuse is, the effects of it and what we can do
to prevent it which we're definitely going to be talking
about, but can you just enlighten us as to what are the effects of a
the abuse
Use and be when you do tell someone and they don't do anything
or they belittle it, or they ignore it, or they tell you to
hide it. What are the psychological effects? Are we
seeing with people who that's happened to? Then I would
recommend one just to name a four. There's really good questions.
Number one thing that I see, in my practice when I'm working with
women who have been sexually abused, is that the belief that it
never happened. So because no one has believed them, maybe they've
told someone that is happened. And when they start talking about it
go, oh, that couldn't have happened to you. What do you mean,
I was always around, especially when they tell their parents, they
start creating the belief that it never happened. So then what that
happens in the end is the day they don't trust themselves. So
especially women who have been sexually abused, physically, the
number one thing they will say is that I'm a liar. And I'm a bad
person. And when you have that belief, if you have the belief
that I'm a liar, and a bad person, is all rooted in shame. And you
find it very difficult to, you know, set healthy boundaries, you
find it difficult to not people, please, you find it very difficult
to be yourself. And a lot of the women that I work with have
depression have anxiety, or suicidal because they know it
happened to them, but no one believes them. Custom. That's a
common theme that I see. Especially what I do. So when I
get to the root cause of it, it's like, when they get that release
that wow, it actually happened. And they're able to release the
feeling from that trauma, the traumatic event, that's when they
will build their confidence. That's when they feel confident
enough to tell people listen, this happened to me. And that's when
they get inspired to change and change their behavior, change the
way they're dealing with, with the depression, change the way they're
dealing with anxiety. But that's a common thing is that I'm a bad
person. It never happened to me, I'm a liar. Right? So they're
obviously echoing back something that they were told me. Yeah. And
it happened to me, like my experience was, I was sexually
abused. And I was exposed to *. And you know, the
person was having * with women in front of me. So there's,
there's two parts to it. So for me, it was like that never
happened. Because when I told someone about it, that my mom, it
was like, she couldn't believe that happened. So she was like,
No, it never happened. So it creates that belief that I must be
a liar.
And if I could just add to the conversation with what you're
saying about parents, you know, it's unfortunately a shame. And
that was one of the reasons why I started my foundation, where, you
know, I looked at the problem, I am also a survivor of childhood
sexual abuse. And unfortunately, you know, I spoke out but nothing
happened, nothing happened. It wasn't taken serious because it
was an older, was an older cousin. So you know, later it was so well,
I thought you guys were just kissing cousins. So they didn't
take it serious. However, you know, I grew up having to
cope with the best way that I knew how, which was very, very
unhealthy. And because I never received the help that I needed to
help me, help me to get through and know that it's, it's not my
fault, I am not to blame, I am not to carry the shame. I didn't know
how to establish healthy boundaries. And when I was raped
again, as an older teenager, as a teen on a date, I was
I kept quiet. I kept quiet. I didn't say anything. I blamed
myself, because, you know, the person tricked me into stopping at
their house so they could go to the bathroom. And then what
happened? They, you know, they physically assaulted me, and then
they break free. And then I said, Well, how can I tell my mother
this? I was only I wasn't Muslim at the time. How can I tell my
mother that I was only supposed to go get something to eat and
country. So when I did that I created my foundation called for
the speaks where I provide education and awareness. To help
prevent an end childhood sexual abuse, I said, what I have to do
is I have to parents, we have to help educate the parents. Because
a survivor a child isn't responsible for protecting
themselves from sexual abusers, we empower our children to speak out
so that if someone you know tries to grow them, someone tells them
to keep a secret, someone shows them a form of affection, and they
don't want to let them know that they're the boss of their bodies,
then
the children can speak out, but the parents we need to be the ones
that's educated. Parents need to be educated on how to respond when
their child discloses their abuse, because as we know, once the child
discloses their abuse, the healing begins. So depending on how you
respond to your child, when they discloses, did they disclose their
abuse could be a life of more shame and blame or life feeling?
So that's what I said, and that's why I created a book and my book
is called My voice is my superpower and it helps parents to
have the conversation and it's a child friendly book and it has
childlike illustrations, but it goes through the vital safety
rules to help parents you know and understand how they have the
conversation because we do we need to educate the parents because the
Muslim kid me
Maybe we don't talk about it, it's all we have to have witnesses, or
give them lashes for having *, oh, don't talk about this, let the
man handle it. So
it's very important. That's what I want to add to that as well. And
so you know, when you are. And another thing is when you're
constantly, when you can see, the thing with victims of sexual abuse
is that they're guilty until proven innocent. That's the issue.
Everyone is guilty until you prove your innocence. So you constantly
feel like you have to defend yourself. That's the issue. And
another thing that I see with that with the girls with the with the
young girls, especially as hypersexuality, as another
psychological effect of sexual abuse, is that your connection
with the world becomes sexual. So this is why a lot of girls were
going through like, you know, the epidemic of teenage pregnancy,
we're going through the epidemic of, you know, girls are self
harming, you know, girls not wanting to have that Muslim
identity, maybe take the hijab off. I'm not saying that's the
only cause. But that's one of the reasons why when you dig a bit
deeper, is because of we're exposed to some form of sexual
sexual thing or sexual abuse, like maybe *, maybe there
were, maybe you know, touching, non consent, consensual *, all
these things happen. So what happens is that they become seen,
they're seen as the bad ones, because of their behavior, but
they're just acting out. They're just rebelling against what's
happened. Yes, exactly. Absolutely, they're speaking and
they're trying to tell you something,
learn and understand the language. And we're saying, we have to, you
know, when my organization I teach parents, the signs of abuse, so
that when your child is self harming, or your child is sudden
dropping grades, or, you know, extreme people pleaser, or your
child is very promiscuous, or your child, you know, has concerns and
issues with their own sexuality, or your child is very, very
sexual, or your child is using drugs, or having to become
angry, you know, these are all signs that something is happening,
something is going on. And Mom, I'm trying to tell you, I can't I
don't have the
the vocabulary to say it. So can we just agree.
When we talk about the system, we're saying previously, that
society says you're guilty until proven innocent, and we look at
statistics, only 2% of victims lie about being sexually abused. So
when 90% of 90% of children or adult childhood survivors who
speak up their abuse 98 out of 100 are not lying. So we had to say
that they are the children are telling the truth, until they get
their lives. zactly Yeah, exactly. That's true. Yeah. I guess there's
two things I want to pick up on insha. Allah definitely. One is I
want to come to Camilla about the victim blaming, because I we've
had a conversation about that before, but I just want to bring
brother Musa and brother Musa, what's been happening? Why did we
start talking about this issue? Like what's going on? With the
youth out there? What's happening on social media? What's what's
what's what's happening? Okay, yeah, so, um, my name is Musa, and
I'm the founder of resorts and organizations, a charity that
supports homeless people in the UK and refugees and people like that.
And also, I'm someone who worked for the last 10 years, with an
organization called roadside to Islam, were also to Islam was a
pathway for reverse, who had converted to Islam from the inner
city, coming from outside gang backgrounds, and just live in a
certain type of lifestyle and embracing Islam and trying to find
their way. Through this, we were able to, you know, gain a lot of,
say, a lot of understanding with the communities that we were
coming from young girls, young boys born Muslims, those who had
reverted to Islam. And something that came to light for me and Abu
Bakr, the founder of roadside to Islam was that so many young girls
had been sexually abused. And it was something that, you know,
wasn't really known to myself growing up, you know, as a
youngster within the UK. And even just listening to you guys, there
was a statement I saw last week sometime on social media where it
said that every female knows someone who's been sexually abused
by not every male knows an abuser. Meaning that for you know, for
like, for every law if he was to ask, you know, like any lady out
there, you know, have you been sexually abused? Or do you know,
someone? Everybody says, Yes, but when it comes to the men, to if
you ask them, Do you know any of your friends or anyone that you've
been in contact with? Who is a predator or sexual abuse?
Everyone's like, No, I don't know. And that's including me. So that's
come to something that come to my mind in terms of what can men do
more to look out for signs, you know, of obstetrical, what are the
signs of someone who, you know, has that tendency to be?
abusive to being a predator or whatever it may be, what are those
signs? Because, as men, we we have too many friends, we only find out
when that person has been exposed. We only find out when that person
you know, gets arrested. But between that and then we never
know anything. And we you know, we just don't see the signs, or is it
that were a bit too, laksa days ago? Or we just think, you know,
he's just in brackets? Ladies, man or Yeah.
Yeah, why the things that were missing out as men in terms of,
you know, being able to spot the sand being able to do much more
than the community, and within the Muslim community with a lot of the
stuff that's come out recently, I feel like a lot of emphasis is
also on family and young people, including boys being molested,
being abused, being raped within the family, being and that's also
included in the community, including, you know, the madrasa
school, outside activity, sports, whatever it may be within the
community, too many of our young people have been, you know, abused
within this community structure, the Muslim community structure.
And there is that, that, you know, keep quiet, don't say anything,
that blame mentality. But then on another outlook, I've come to,
I've come from some of the, you know, things that I've been
reading again, through a lot of the time, some of these parents
who are quick to shift their children, also victims of the very
same children are going through and they haven't healed, nor have
they come to the process of understanding with example, if we
look at the female, certain community, a lot of the time it's
done by the Auntie's, it's done by the women, the aggression that
takes place within our community.
It's not
cause a he
has gone through things that they deemed to think are you know,
okay, simple. It's just a way of life is our culture, how we were
born. And then they implement this onto the journey continues through
into a cycle where you find young people, obviously, with social
media, and being in a new immigration, where young people
are just more or out. And, like, like one panelist said, we'd like
to.
So we see statistics, you know, that
more than every six women have been sexually abused, but we think
for some reason, the Muslim women, or as if some reason defects don't
apply to us, we try to, you know, make ourselves us and then, and I
feel a lot.
100% I think I might have lost you there. But this is something that
I really, firstly, before we go into the Muslim attitudes,
specifically, and also the victim blaming, I want to go over to
Camilla but one of the things one of the questions I have is, you
know, in our communities, many of our communities the the issue of
honor, okay, and family honor and family name, and your police in
the community is paramount, right? And this whole thing of having
greater for your family members. So I'm going to ask Brother Musa
as the only male on the panel today, how come? Is it that if you
hear that someone has touched your child, or hurt your child, like,
how come your instinct is not to go and kill that person? But how
come you're injured? Or is it that the men are not taught? Or what's
happening? Because I would expect, you know, in this framework of is
there an Aveda and all of this, I would expect a father to hear
something like that his first instinct would be, I'm going to
kill him. But we're not really seeing that happening. So am I
getting the wrong end of the stick? Is it that the men are not
told? Is it women keeping the secrets? What's happening?
I feel like again, coming from someone who embraces, I feel like
coming from a river
and emotional about the Muslim community, you know, that aspect
of if someone touches one of mine, then something has to happen. I
don't know, any brothel that will be that will be different from
that. But then, like, I'll say the last, you know, my last 1011 12
years within the Muslim culture, I feel like already coaches that,
you know, our community come from women, sometimes, you know, put to
the side and they were like a second class citizen in a lot of
the things that happened within the community and family. And I
feel like that also shows where, like, when I put when I speak, or
I've been in, in Muslim communities, and especially
sometimes women have seen as a burden, or when they get married,
they then you know, end up with with the husband's family, they're
no longer our problem. How much money are we going to get for our
daughter? How much is the matter? All of these type of things where
it's as if it's like, you know, that we raised this woman or this
child and then when she gets to a certain age, she gets married and
she
goes off and we never dig. It's like the women are just passed on
to the male families. This poacher understanding why the women are
seen one. But for a lot of what I've seen, and I feel like this is
why sometimes when things are said, you know, women are treated
a certain way is that gives us a realtor to run, we're asked to
talk many times one of the topics
and forced marriages, and things like that, but looking into
soldiers, because the Muslim community, we're not just one
culture, there's many cultures within in our community, and
people, you know, tend to
definitely have a time when you come to understand some of the
pressures within the code.
Communities, they build businesses, and organizations that
are dependent on the community support. And so here you have a
father who has a shop that's been going for 20 years, and he's shot
and his livelihood, and paying his bills and support his family back
home is all based on this community, supporting them and
giving them everything, someone from that community asked for his
daughter's hand in marriage, and he refuses, and then he's dealt
with threats of the community boycotting him, you know, his
business gang down during the stuff like that. I feel like
there's so much social pressures that go into a situation,
sometimes it's easy for us to kind of look at it from, you know, from
the outside in and think like, what are the men doing? Or like,
what's the issue, and it's easy for us to talk on it. I feel like
there's just so many things to unpack within the Muslim community
in terms of why some pressures are how they are, it's not excusable,
but it's something that, you know, I've had to look at before I just
come out and speak, I have to understand the nuance. And next,
the, in the politics of what's really going on here. Because like
you said, As a man you think Hold on, he's first fortunately to
protect his daughter to protect his family, like, why is he
thinking like this, but a lot of the time, there's so much social
pressure. And we see this within any walks of life or by young
people that.
That comes dances a lot. And sadly, I feel like the women
suffer a lot. When when it comes to this in terms of what we're
seeing today, then not being believed, or them being, you know,
like them being overlooked and, and just being treated as if
they're not worthy of anything. Because some of the stories that
you hear you think, how can a mother or father stand by and
allow something like this to happen to their child knowingly
that the child has come to them and said this, and this has
happened, and shamed them to believe in or to stay quiet? I
want to go to thank you so much for that, Melissa. I would like to
go to Camilla now. Because I know that you're familiar with this
whole dynamic. So what's the deal with the victim being blamed? She
did something she must have done something she wasn't dressed
appropriately. She was in the wrong place at the wrong time. You
know, she asked for it. She did something to to allow this to be
what is where is that coming from?
Well, before I answer that, I've noticed that quite a few people
have been putting in the comments speaking about boys being molested
as well. So I think it is very important for us to touch on that
just a little bit that women do also abuse. It's a small, small
percentage. But yes, we mean to also abused.
And men also abused boys.
So this is something that we do need to look at.
I don't know, sir. Internet. Can you hear me clearly? No, it's
okay. Now I've muted everyone else. Okay. Right. So
basically, what we have to look at is that there are other modules
here. So, as I said, women do right boys, they do abuse boys.
And you see the dynamics again, shift whereas it's like, Oh, come
on, like he was 14. And you know, she was a this hot teacher or
whatever. And it's not viewed the same. It's not viewed the same as
a man who would be a teacher molesting a 13 year old girl. Like
her as well. It's like a cultural thing. It's
why should resist Him. And yeah, a pat on the back, you know? Oh,
well, you managed to pull that female teacher. So, so how
society?
So yeah, so again, we forget about that. And we also forget about
that boys are actually abused as well. And this is something that
when we talk about shaming, victim blaming, you have this almost it's
like a consensus that you can't say anything because if we talk
about our son being abused, and everyone will think he's a
homosexual, everyone will mean it's like abused by a man. Yeah,
by a man. Yeah, then everyone will think he's a homosexual. Everyone
will think he's this way inclined. Whereas this is like an irrational
fear. You know, it's an irrational fear, and this irrational fear and
this
What people call honor. It's like I was saying, to think to yourself
the other day, when you think of this word, honor, something that
would make a man, take his daughter, Chopper up, torture her
and kill her because she hasn't married somebody who she wants her
to marry. This is a barrier that is so hard to penetrate. And
something that is so important for people to understand is until you
can penetrate this barrier, you can't even start to talk to people
about abuse. You can't even get them to see that it's actually
incorrect, and that it is so so horrific and wrong. You really,
it's, you know, there's a colleague of mine, as I said,
she's there, and she can probably talk a lot more about it
afterwards. Because she knows a lot more about it, but it's
something definitely that I have seen within the community that I
work in. That definitely is honor and this victim blaming. So victim
blaming, and, you know, we're just as guilty of it as anyone else.
You know, look what she was wearing.
Why was she on her own in the room with him?
You know, well, everyone knows that she likes going to certain
places. She must have asked for it. You know, I had a scenario
where I spoke to somebody about a young girl was walking through a
park, on her way home, was brutally attacked and raped. And
the first thing they said, Well, why was she walking through the
park on her own, but it happened to be I said it was in the
evening. It happened to be in the summer was about 730. So it was
still light. And the park was adjacent to the house but straight
away. We wanted to ask why was she in the park not, you know, talk
about this perpetrator who had raped her, but placed the blame at
her door for going about her daily business, walking through the park
and going home. We had another incident where a mother
walked in on her nephew, saw him pulling up his trousers, it was
obvious he had done something to her daughter. She didn't say a
word, not a word to the boy or the daughter.
The boy went out she didn't ask her daughter anything. And the
daughter noticed after about two, three weeks, she didn't see the
cousin come to the house. And she went to the mother and she
attempted to speak to the mother and her mother told her, I don't
ever want you to speak to me because of you. I've lost my
brother.
So she was more concerned about the fact that she should want her
brother. This is what I've seen. He's taking the child away. And
she was more concerned about not seeing her brother than what she'd
walked in on Subhan Allah so again, this girl was late to Phil,
she was to blame. So there's so many instances of it and we are
guilty of it. You know, we are the first to say, well, you know,
look, she was out there in a miniskirt. She was drunk. She was
talking to this one. What did you expect? But then what about a
woman who goes out who's covered and she's raped? Yeah. And we know
this happens. We know that does know that it was just to jump in
there. You know, when when people when people talk about and I'm
coming to you Sofia after in Charlotte, so I got you
this whole thing about, you know, they the girl being too sexy.
That's why he did that, because she was too sexy. either. She's
too beautiful. Or she showed herself in a way where she behaved
in a way. How then do we rationalize when it's infants, you
know, when it lays out the biller, you know, when it's four or five
year old children. This for me is something that I can't really wrap
my head around. So Subhanallah this this we Yeah, anyway, we're
gonna we're gonna go into that in Sharla. But yeah, it's, yeah, go
ahead.
Just like a little head, some amazing points will lie. And I
think, you know, this, this session won't give it justice. But
I think it's really important that we touch on everything just to
kind of bring it to to our forefront and maybe a Charlotte as
a community, we can address it more I can explore it, and maybe
come back to it as well. I think one thing in terms of the interest
of
fathers and fathers not what why don't we hear the Father did
something to somebody because somebody did to his daughter,
again, it goes back to the shame element. And if I swiftly conic
drain, you know, concentrate on the Somali community specifically,
and even forget this country for a second, you know, back home, you
would hear some girl who is what 10 years old, abused by a big
grown man. And the next thing you will hear is the family paid
compensation to the tribe or the father or the family, and
therefore now they will marry the daughter.
That's been done.
Maybe she's too young. So we'll wait for her to get older until
she does. So I think it goes back to the fact where they're so
overwhelmed by trying to hide the shame and the consequences that
their child has faced, to the extent that they that they would
put their child at the forefront to say hey, you know, you've done
something together, go and marry and I think it's really important
also to have
I like in certain situations where it's actually your Muharram. That
does it. So how do you deal with that? What do you do if it's your
real uncle? What do you do? If it's your, if it's your father as
one, we've heard cases of situations like that. And I think
it's really important to, to know that sometimes even in your
household, what are they going to say that she didn't come up in a
household in front of her uncle, of course, she then because she
doesn't have to do that. So these are sick people that need to be
dealt with. And when I say dealt with, unless, as a community, we
start punishing the perpetrators, unless people start going into
prison. Unless, as a community, we start naming and shaming the
perpetrators, we're sending a strong signal to the younger
generation to the next generation to highlight and say, actually, if
you do X, Y, and Zed, you will be put in prison because this country
has laws and remember the laws of this country is that if someone
does commit a crime, and this is a crime we're talking about, and
you, you brush it under the carpet, you are also a part of it,
you know, there is consequences for you as well. You're a part of
that, that that, that that that sexual,
what they call it, the ring, circle, or whatever they might
call it, that that network of abusers, the one who abuses the
one can go silent and Islamically. We know that if you can't stop
with your hands, you know that there are things for you to do.
But being silent and leaving it to happen is not something that comes
from our deen nor comes from our natural human instinct. And
remember, if you don't speak up for the victim, and you don't
ensure that they get the justice, then what are you sending to the
victim, you're saying it's okay to abuse someone and then they become
potential abusers as well, because it happened to me and nothing
happened to the abuser. And now I have all these feelings and
sexuality that I need to experience. So I think as a
community know this, that if you don't deal with it now, as parents
as community as Muslims, if we don't deal with it, now, we're
saying it's okay, and we've got your back as the abuser, because
it's easier to support the abuser than to support the victim. And
that's something really important I want you guys to digest, it's
easier to support the victim or the perpetrator because you all
you have to do is go sign it. And it's harder to support the victim
because now you have to go through the whole process, you have to get
them the specialist help and support that they need. You have
to make sure that you tell them that you believe them, you support
them. So I think as a community, we need to come out of our comfort
zone, we need to have those discussions with our children. But
when something happens, it is far upon your Father upon you to speak
out, speak out for the hat speak out for the victims and make sure
that you protect them because you're protecting the next
generation as well. Sophia that you've just given a whole word
there and I just want 100% cosign that and I hope you know
mashallah, I hope everyone here understands this. We have the
ability to turn the tide in this generation. We have the ability,
Masha, Allah, how many of you are parents in this room? Just give a
yes. You know, in the comments, how many of us are parents, we all
parents here. Most of us have got children no matter what age, which
means that there is something we can do here. And I don't want
anybody to feel like, you know, the community is this big entity
that can't be changed. It can't be controlled, culture can't be
changed. Culture is dynamic. It's changing all the time. And the
fact that we are here in this gathering, having this
conversation, this is a change. And I don't want anybody to
underestimate this because it's literally a situation of each one,
teach one, the lovely had the amazing panelists, we've got here,
all with their different expertise and specialisms coming together to
teach us so that we can then tweet about it put up on Instagram, but
more importantly speak to our family members and our friends and
enact these, these these principles within our homes. So
without the biller, if this ever comes to any of us, we at least
know a what the signs are, which we're going to talk about, and B,
what is the correct way to deal with this? What is the way for us
to be able to start really making people feel consequences because
I'm sorry, I just have to save for a second here. I really feel this
jumping off brother nooses point within the Muslim community,
crimes against women in general, are enabled, whether it is abuse,
sexual abuse, domestic violence, you know, whatever divorces or
this kind of thing. We're surrounded by enablers because
it's easier, as you said, to support the perpetrator to keep
things quiet to keep the peace to keep the status quo than it is to
stand up for the hawk and for justice. So with that in mind, who
would like to speak on a what parents should be looking out for?
And be the next question is, you know, there's a point here because
we will discuss I've discussed this with several of you
beforehand. And this issue of, you know, the victim what the victim
could have done what she should have done and
Kamila you mentioned something very, very good when we were
talking about this, because you were talking about how the focus
is always on what the victim did what the victim should have done.
But what is the question actually, that we should be asking? Is it
about the victim? or is somebody else who should we should be
talking about? It's definitely about the perpetrator. And, you
know, something I always say is that we need to understand that
blame lies 100% with the perpetrator, the perpetrator is
the one that has committed the crime, and they have committed the
act against that victim, the victim shares no part in the blame
whatsoever. And I know there'll be people that because they're in
some form of denial, or the way they've been conditioned, will
still have that idea or that ideology. Will, you know, yes, it
was the way she was dressed, no, the perpetrator had no control is
a predator. And that's what they chose to do. So the blame lies
100% with them, in regards to bringing people to justice. This
is something, again, that I'll say that Justice looks like different
things to different people. So you may have some victims,
survivors that will say, Well, do you know what I told somebody, and
they actually believed me, after 10 years, someone actually
believed me. And for me, that was enough. That was enough, I just
wanted someone to believe me, you may have another person that says,
Well, I want everyone to know that that's what he is, I want everyone
to know that he abuses children, or he abuses women. And then you
might have some that say, well, actually, I want it to go all the
way to court. And I want this person to be imprisoned. So we
can't put it in one box. It's different things for different
people. And we always have to bear in mind what that victim and
survivor wants, because maybe when they're saying to that time, I
just wanted someone to believe me, five years down the line, they may
come back and say actually, now I've got the strength, and I want
that person prosecuted. So something that we need to be very
careful of is that we don't push anyone to do something that
they're going to feel uncomfortable with. Because when
someone's pushed, and they're already fragile, and they're
suffering from trauma, it can have devastating consequences, it can
end up with that person taking their life, turning to drugs,
turning to alcohol. So we have to understand that we've started
this, but everyone has to bear in mind, this is just the beginning
of the journey, it's not going to change overnight, we have got a
mountain to climb. At the moment, we're at the bottom of the
mountain, but we've started the climb, and we've got a mountain to
climb. And we've got to keep educating our people, our
communities, and talking about this, and getting them to
understand the role they play in it. And a question you asked me
the other day about can we prevent it? The answer to that is actually
the person who can prevent it is the perpetrator, the person who is
committing that crime. However, what we can do is we can have a
look at what share of the blame we take. And is that blame that we're
not focused enough? Is it that we don't teach our children? Is it
that we're complicit in covering it up? Or that yes, so many in the
community are guilty. But the actual person who commits the act
that lies 100% with them,
I just want to just jump in with a Sharia I see you there girl up,
I'm coming to you, Brother Abdullah had Stevenson has joined
us Brother, are you on video?
Well, you can sell them, I really wanted to be able to bring you in
just to educate all of us, I guess, on the Shediac perspective,
because I think we've discussed the issue of, of honor, and is as
it's culturally known. And also the idea that people feel like the
big picture, Jonnie the piece, and keeping the peace and keeping ties
of kinship is more important than kind of justice or healing for a
victim of sexual abuse. So I think for all of us who are watching, is
there an Islamic case for, like, lying about abuse, or hiding it or
kind of trying to shush it or anything like that? Is there an
Islamic basis for that?
Bismillah first of all, I'd like to echo what Sister Camilla was
speaking about. I think she made some very strong points. And I
really,
you know,
what you said about you that you shouldn't really push the victim
because, you know, they know kind of how they want to address it and
move forward. That might be for example, you know, mentioned and
then someone knowing about it being enough for them, so that
they can stop it from continuing might be the case that later on
down the line. They want, they're more vocal, they want to take it
further. I think that's really an important point that she
made, generally speaking, obviously, it's a crime. And once
the allegations been made, then it has its, it has to be dealt with
it can't be hashed up. If other than say, hash it up, hide it, you
know, don't, you know, keep silent, don't speak about it, it's
a very serious thing that's happened. And, you know, it has to
be addressed. Because it's a crime that's been committed. And
obviously, justice, it has to be, Justice has to basically prevail.
And that justice is, you know, has many different forms, it may be
one of the ways that, that Justice happens is obviously the person
that's done the action than the, you know, taken to account for
that, whether it's legally in the here, for example, you know, in
the case where it's taken to the police, or whether it's something
which they're prevented from doing that. And it's made known, for
example, that, you know, allegation has been made, it's an
allegation, and it's, you know, has to be proven, but there has to
be a basically a post is a due process. One thing I want to
highlight, and it might not be popular, because there seems to be
social media has made it very easy to follow up for allegations, and
then not be necessarily,
you know, it's not dealt with in a, it's become a kind of like a
kangaroo court where a person's on the likeliest you're speaking
about is actually, you know, tarnished and allegations are not
substantiated, or they haven't been dealt with in the proper way.
There hasn't been a due process. And one thing which Islam was
clear about is that allegations that there needs to be a due
process, basically, I think that's something which needs to be
highlighted as well. Okay. So if somebody said to you, you know, as
Muslims, we should cover the sins of our brother, we shouldn't
expose the sins of Allah hasn't exposed him, then you shouldn't
expose him. What What, what's, what's your take on that?
One the most, I think that's incorrect when it comes to raising
the case against somebody. So for example, there's no backbiting
that comes to raising a case,
you know, against the person or against an individual, that
backbiting doesn't come into cognizance not coming to that's
not the issue, which is at hand, isn't it? Because there's been a
crime, for example, has been committed. So that doesn't come
that doesn't come into it at all. Okay, it never has done. It has
done okay. So, so Okay, I think Well, I think one, I think one
thing, which is clear, and I think it's something which is
only men that do do it is women and men are in relationship, so
relationships, utilizing the dean to cover the to allow them to
continue to try to transgress, or to go beyond boundaries with
regards to relationships, or the rights of another person. And
that's something that needs to be kind of, you know, stopped at the
terms of control and manipulation.
As FYI, now, I have something else as well to add on this. Okay, so
when we're talking about abuse by family members, just like sister
Sophia mentioned about abuse by the Muslim. So obviously, we know
that the rules of hijab are, you know, relaxed in front of a
Muslim, as Allah has said, Do what is your advice for parents, and I
just want to make it clear to everybody here, in general, the
virtual salon is a mixed space. Y'all need to come up here with
your husbands and your spouses and your brothers and your sisters and
your big kids. Okay, it is that kind of space. It is not a
sister's only discussion. It this type of conversation can never be
a sisters only discussion. This is a community issue. Okay, so
brother of the warhead, I have a question with regards to hijab
and, and just trusting the Muslim because if it's happening within
the family, as mothers and fathers, what is what should we be
doing? Because obviously, we are much more relaxed around the
people who are the karate the people who are supposed to be
close to us Islamically you know, who are supposed to be relaxed and
feel safe around? You know, what, what's your advice to us now, as
we do know, that is it the majority, what's the percentage
guys, anyone just unmute and say, Tell me what the percentage is?
What should you what's the percentage of abuse that happens
as a result of trauma from a close family member? 90% of children
that are victims of child sexual abuse are abused by people they
know and love and trust Subhanallah and the median is
number one, nine. It's the number one so what should Islamically
what are we saying?
Yeah, so my question is, you know, what, what do we do with that
knowing on the
One hand that you know Islamically these are the karate these are
people we should be able to trust with our children, etc. But then
also knowing that 90% of perpetrators will be of those
close, you know of those close family members, how do we now
balance that within our families and that the dynamic within our
families
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