Naima B. Robert – The {Virtual} Salon Na’ima B. Robert Sexual Abuse in the Community
AI: Summary ©
AI: Transcript ©
abuse, you know, any type of any type of sexual contact, obscene
phone calls, you know, as they call it, the phone * found doing
*. So it's a very broad broad range because, and that's so
important for us to know because a lot of times, children don't may
not even realize that they were all adults. And children don't
realize that they've been sexually abused because there's no physical
contact. So Oh, we didn't penetrate. So I wasn't sexually
abused. Oh, we only made me watch a video. So I wasn't sexually
abused. Oh, he was only 15. And I was 12. So that's not sexual
abuse. So, you know, I wanted to just, you know, add that point to
the conversation. Do you think as well see, so that's because the
way that it's portrayed as well, by society, that unless someone's
penetrated, we have this, this mindset that it's not actually
abuse. So obviously, if that's what's ingrained in people
ingrained in families, generation, upon generation, then, like you
said, someone may not even realize actually, they have been abused.
Absolutely. And because of our unfortunate,
this conference, and speaking about this topic, and because of
the hush hush in our culture, where, especially in the Muslim
community, we don't talk about *, we don't talk about the body.
We don't talk about what sexual abuses we don't want to talk about
it, many of us don't, and what prevention we can,
education can provide prevention as possible through education, but
we have to know exactly what it is. And there's a lot of
organizations out here, including my very own organization, but he
speaks where we provide the education so that people can know
and people can understand and, you know, humbly last name for you
know, bringing this to the masses. Mashallah, I just want to jump in
there, because you mentioned the Muslim culture. And obviously,
this virtual salon is for Muslims to talk about Muslim issues. Okay.
And from a holistic perspective. So, if you maybe any of the
panelists would like to speak either from their expertise or
their experience, what are some of the, what are some of the issues
that we as Muslim communities face in particular, when it comes to
addressing this issue of sexual abuse? Sister, Sharia mentioned
how Muslims don't like to talk about *, and this is true, okay.
There is a shame there, somebody in the in the court in the
comments just mentioned shame. And obviously, that's a huge part of
it. But if you if my panelists would like to kind of go into
that, because you're from a variety of backgrounds, obviously,
expertise, etc. So what is happening in the Muslim community
that is making it even harder for us to tackle this issue? Go ahead.
I think definitely the, we have this culture where we shouldn't
say anything. So you can't expose that person. You can't say what
that person's done. And this has been drummed into us so much, that
we almost start to believe the rhetoric and in my, in my line of
work, what I've come across, I've come across people where their
main priority is to protect the perpetrator, and not the person
who's been abused. So for instance, they'll say, Well, let's
think about the bigger picture. So for them, the bigger picture is
you can't bring the masjid down, you can't talk about the Imam like
that. So we'll sacrifice that child will handle that child out
to dry will keep that child quiet, in the name of, you know, almost
protecting Well, that's what it is. It's protecting and colluding
with the perpetrators. So this is something that we come across a
lot. Also, in the borough that I mean, one of the big problems we
come across is not just within the Muslim community, but also with
our local authorities. Again, it's such a panel like such a
minefield, but again, we have that problem where they see a black
victim or an Asian victim as less than a white victim. We break that
down, hold on a minute, that's a big thing to say. Okay, so
what's the proof of this?
I'll explain what I mean. So if you have a look at when newspapers
report about sexual exploitation, for instance, or be Asian gangs,
grooming white girls, okay, that sells papers, it's an you know,
it's sensational, isn't it? It doesn't have the same ring as
Asian mangoes black girl, or black man grooms black girl. It doesn't
have the same, you know, impact. He doesn't sell papers. But this
is not a true model. There is a model that happens like that, but
it is not a true reflection. And in fact, there is somebody that
has joined and hopefully they'll be able to elaborate more on this
in the after discussion, who actually was involved in a lot of
work.
Can rotheram excetera. But one of the things that was never
mentioned was the fact that there was also Black and Asian girls,
that were part of those rings that were being groomed. Wow, that was
never ever mentioned. And when you mentioned that to me, I remember
when we spoke before this session, actually, I was shocked, because
it was very much told the story structure was predator Asians,
Asian predators, you know, grooming white girls specifically.
And you know, the whole story of you know, they wouldn't do that to
their own, etc. So it becoming very much a racialized thing,
actually. So Subhanallah the fact that that wasn't the full picture.
That's something that I don't think most people know. But like,
what's going on? What what is it? Is it a media thing? Is it ideas
about our culture's? Or is it that black girls are considered sexual
anyway? Or sexualized anyway, what is actually going? Yeah,
definitely, I think that is looked at the black, black women or black
girls are more sensual. And, you know, that easy game, you know,
I've had young Asian girls told me that when they've spoken to social
services, and may have talked about, you know, a family member
abusing them, it's been well, you know, I don't know why you're
making a big fuss of it, you will end up marrying your cousins
anyway. If you've got social workers, and if you've got people
like social workers or local authority, and police who speak to
victims like this, then, you know, what kind of chance do they
actually have, but definitely the rhetoric is, if you're black,
you're more likely to be a perpetrator, than you are a
victim. So I can only speak about my experience and in the work that
I've done, you know, with my young people, I want to just jump over
to Sofia for a second Inshallah, because I think this issue of, you
know, the bigger picture, and you know, really, like you said,
almost just just just don't make a big deal because the after effects
will be much worse and then link of his family and the masjid and
his reputation. Is this a problem in the Somali community Sofia,
specifically since you know, I know that you work with many
different communities, but maybe speak to us from about your
community in particular. So slowly come to, to everyone and Rezac
Allah. Nyima, for doing this session, I worked for a women's
organization based in East London, specifically in Tower Hamlets. And
I guess, each community has its dynamics and barriers and
challenges. And actually, what upsets me more is actually when
certain communities believe or have this concept that they are
far from it, but it's not them. It's other people. And I think
unless you change that mindset, you know, you can't you can't
prevent it, you can't be alerted to it, you can't support someone.
Because if you really believe that we're immune to it. And actually,
just like Jumilla, just
Camilla Sorry, just highlighted, it's really important to note
that, that actually, for the victim, it's extremely hard. And
it's dynamics, and mostly it's about the family. It's internal.
You often don't hear about external. You know, it's not
interesting when I had a chat with with Camilla this week, it wasn't
often it's not external perpetrators actually internal.
And that's because I think because, you know, it's the fact
of, if we're in the same household, you know, you're the
uncle, you're the auntie, we're all okay. And it really isn't. The
biggest thing that we've seen, I guess in the last few weeks is the
huge awareness of victims speaking out about their, their challenging
hours, obviously a trauma have gone through, and they're
repeating a trauma, and I'm really, I deliver a number of
different mental health courses, specifically, specifically,
because the trauma element, it's not good to talk about the trauma
generally. However, I think it's sparked a discussion that, that
here we are, I guess, I get as a community as a part of the
committee, we're having that discussion. And when you listen to
the people that have come to us in terms of our organization, and you
hear their story, it's very much about I went to my auntie or I
went to my mother, or I told him about my experience, and that
rejection of not being believed or was more traumatic for the
individual, because then it means that you're carrying this trauma.
And instead of having someone talking to you, or actually
overcoming the trauma or the challenge, or the abuse that
you've experienced, it means that now you're carrying it and then
you're sort of that that is probably more painful for most of
the people that we support that have come up and even when you
listen to people's real stories, and I think as a nation, we need
to really make it clear and I think the real discussion, if I'm
being honest, it's about parents, knowing how to protect their
children, it's about parents actually been alerted to what is
child abuse, like, you know, it's not just the physical and I've
heard people saying, Oh, he hasn't done it, you know, fully so it's
surely it's nothing to them, you know, don't dwell over it, don't
talk about it. And for me, the highest issue is the almost there
is a blame factor.
tell whether we like it or not on the victim? Are you? What did you
do? Or oh my god for the rest of your life, you'll be known as the
person that was raped? Do you really want people to know that?
Do you know your future husband to know that you were right to you're
not a virgin or whatever that might be. So I think we need to
have those discussions. But let me tell you one thing in the UK, back
home in Africa, wherever it might be around the world, it happens.
So please, let's start saying, Oh, this doesn't happen to us it's far
from and know that it actually happens in every community. I just
need to jump quickly to I just would like to quickly jump and
bring into Rosaleen here, because Rosaleen, you deal with your rapid
transformation therapist, you deal with trauma, especially childhood
trauma. So just because I mean, this virtual salon, you know, it's
kind of it's for grown people, really many of us have children,
many of us have older children. And so really, the focus of this,
this session is really for parents to become aware, for parents to
know what sexual abuse is, the effects of it, and what we can do
to prevent it, which we're definitely going to be talking
about. But can you just enlighten us as to? What are the effects of
a the abuse and be when you do tell someone, and they don't do
anything? Or they belittle it, or they ignore it? Or they tell you
to hide it? What What a huge psychological effect are we seeing
with people who that's happened to? So now, when I come, everyone
does Oklahoma for those really good questions. Number one thing
that I see, in my practice when I'm working with women who have
been sexually abused, is that the belief that it never happened, so
because no one has believed, and maybe they've told someone that
it's happened. And when they start talking about it go, oh, that
couldn't have happened to you. What do you mean, I was always
around, especially when they tell their parents, they start creating
the belief that it never happened. So then what that happens in the
end is the day they don't trust themselves. So especially women
who have been sexually abused, physically, the number one thing
they will say is that I'm a liar. And I'm a bad person. And when you
have that belief, if you have the belief that I'm a liar, and a bad
person, it's all rooted in shame. And you find it very difficult to,
you know, set healthy boundaries, you find it difficult to not
people, please, you find it very difficult to be yourself. And a
lot of the women that I work with, have depression have anxiety, or
suicidal because they know what happened to them, but no one
believes them. Doesn't, that's a common theme that I see. And
especially with what I do, so when I get to the root cause of it is
like, when they get that release that wow, it actually happened.
And they're able to release the feeling from that trauma, the
traumatic event, that's when they will build their confidence.
That's when they feel confident enough to tell people listen, this
happened to me. And that's when they get inspired to change and
change their behavior, change the way they're dealing with that with
the depression, change the way they're dealing with the anxiety.
But that's a common thing is that I'm a bad person. It never
happened to me. I'm a liar. Right? So they're obviously echoing back
something that they were told me. Yeah. And it happened with me,
like my experience was, I was sexually abused. And I was exposed
to *. And you know, the person was having * with
women in front of me. So there's, there's two parts to it. So for me
it was it never happened. Because when I told someone about it, that
my mom, it was like, she couldn't believe that happened. So she was
like, No, it never happened. So it creates that belief that I must be
a liar.
And if I could just add to the conversation with what you're
saying about parents, you know, it's unfortunately a shame. And
that was one of the reasons why I started my foundation, where, you
know, I looked at the problem. I am also a survivor of childhood
sexual abuse. And unfortunately, you know, I spoke out but nothing
happened. Nothing happened. It wasn't taken serious because it
was an older, was an older cousin. So you know, later it was said,
Well, I thought you guys were just kissing cousins. So they didn't
take it serious. However, you know, I grew up having to
cope with the best way that I knew how, which was very, very
unhealthy. And because I never received the help that I needed to
help them, help me to get through and know that it's, it's not my
fault. I am not to blame. I am not to carry the shame. I didn't know
how to establish healthy boundaries. And when I was raped
again, as an older teenager, as a teen on a date, I was, um, I kept
quiet. I kept quiet. I didn't say anything. I blamed myself because,
you know, the person tricked me into stopping at their house so
they could go to the bathroom. And then what happened? They you know,
they physically assaulted me and then they break free and then I
said, Well, how can I tell my mother this? I was only I wasn't
Muslim at the time. How can I tell my mother this I was only supposed
to go get something to eat and country. So when I decided I
created my foundation called buddy speaks where I provide education
and awareness to help prevent an end childhood sexual abuse. I said
what I have to do is I have to
Parents, we have to help educate the parents. Because a survivor, a
child isn't responsible for protecting themselves from sexual
abusers, we empower our children to speak out so that if someone,
you know, tries to grow them, someone tells them to keep a
secret, someone shows them a form of affection, and they don't want
to let them know that they're the boss of their bodies, then
the children can speak out, but the parents, we need to be the
ones that's educated parents need to be educated on how to respond
when their child discloses their abuse. Because as we know, once
the child discloses their abuse, the healing begins. So depending
on how you respond to your child, when they disclose the stage, they
disclose their abuse could be a life of more shame and blame, or
Liman yelling. So that's what I said. And that's why I created a
book. And my book is called My voices my superpower. And it helps
parents to have the conversation. And it's a child friendly book,
and it has childlike illustrations, but it goes through
the vital safety rules, to help parents to know and understand how
to have the conversation because we do we need to educate the
parents, because the Muslim community, we don't talk about it,
it's all we have to have witnesses, I'll give them lashes
for having *, oh, don't talk about this, let the man handle it.
So
it's very important. That's what I want to add to that as well. And
so you know, when you are, and another thing is, when you're
constantly, when you can't see, the thing with the victims of
sexual abuse is that guilty until proven innocent, that's the issue.
Everyone is guilty until you prove your innocence. So you constantly
feel like you have to defend yourself. That's the issue. And
another thing I see with that with the girls with the with the young
girls, especially as hypersexuality, as another
psychological effect of sexual abuse, is that your connection
with the world becomes sexual. So this is why a lot of girls were
going through like, you know, the epidemic of teenage pregnancy,
we're going through the epidemic of, you know, girls are self
harming, you know, girls not wanting to have that Muslim
identity, maybe take their hijab, I'm not saying that's the only
cause. But that's one of the reasons why when you dig a bit
deeper, is because of we're exposed to some form of sexual
sexual thing or sexual abuse, that maybe *, maybe there
were, maybe you know, touching, non consent, consensual *, all
these things happen. So what happens is that they become seen,
they're seen as the bad ones, because of their behavior, but
they're just acting out. They're just rebelling against what's
happened. Yes, exactly. Absolutely, they're speaking and
they're trying to tell you something,
learn and understand the language. And we're saying, we have to, you
know, what my organization, I teach parents, the signs of abuse,
so that when your child is self harming, or your child is sudden
dropping grades, or, you know, extreme people pleaser, or your
child is very promiscuous, or your child, you know, has concerns and
issues with their own sexuality, or your child is very, very
sexual, or your child is using drugs, more young adults become
angry, you know, these are all signs that something is happening,
something is going on. And Mom, I'm trying to tell you, but I
can't I don't have the, the the vocabulary to say it. So can we
just agree that
when we talk about the system, we're saying previously that
society says you're guilty until proven innocent, and we look at
statistics, only 2% of victims lie about being sexually abused. So
we're talking about 90% of 90% of children or adult childhood
survivors who speak up their abuse 98 out of 100 are not lying. So we
had to say that they are the children are telling the truth,
until they're either dead or alive. Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
That's definitely true. Yeah. I guess there's two things I want to
pick up on insha Allah definitely. One is I want to come to Camilla
about the victim blaming, because we've had a conversation about
that before but I just want to bring brother Musa in brother
Musa. What's been happening? Why did we start talking about this
issue? Like what's going on with the youth out there? What's
happening on social media? What's what's what's what's happening?
For them, who says is outnumbered severely today? My apologies. But
can use your mic working? No, your mic is off.
So the house is fine. Yes. Okay. Yeah. So, um, my name is Musa. I'm
the founder of resource and organization, so charity that and
support homeless people in the UK and refugees and people like that.
And also, I'm someone who worked for the last 10 years with an
organization called roadside to Islam. We're also to Islam was a
pathway for
Reverse who had converted to Islam from the inner city coming from
outside gang back grounds and just to live in a certain type of
lifestyle and, and embracing Islam and trying to find their way
through this, we were able to, you know, gain a lot of, say a lot of
understanding with the communities that we're coming from young
girls, young boys born Muslims, those who had reverted to Islam.
And something that came to light for me and Abu Bakr, the founder
of roadside to Islam was that so many young girls had been sexually
abused. And it was something that, you know, wasn't really known to
myself growing up, you know, as a youngster within the UK. And even
just listening to you guys, there was a statement that I saw last
week sometime on social media where it said that every female
knows someone who's been sexually abused by not every male knows,
someone knows an abuser. Meaning that for you know, for like, for
every law, if he was to ask, you know, like any lady out there, you
know, have you been sexually abused? Or do you know, someone?
Everybody says, Yes, but when it comes to the men, to if you ask
them, Do you know any of your friends, or anyone that you've
been in contact with? Who is a predator or sexual abuse?
Everyone's like, No, I don't know. And that's including me. So let's
come to something that comes to my mind in terms of what can men do
more to look out for signs, you know, of? It's difficult, what are
the signs of someone who, you know, has that tendency to be
abusive, to be a predator or whatever it may be? What are those
signs because, as men, we we have too many friends, we only find out
when that person has been exposed. We only find out when that person
you know, gets arrested. But between that and then we never
know anything, and we you know, we just don't see the signs, or is it
that were a bit too laksa days ago? Or we just think, you know,
he's just in brackets. Ladies, man, or, you know, it's,
yeah, why the things that were missing out as men in terms of,
you know, being able to spot the sun being able to do much more of
in the community, and within the Muslim community, with a lot of
the stuff that's come out recently, I feel like a lot of
emphasis is also on family, and young people, including boys being
molested, being abused, being raped within the family, being and
that's also included in the community, including, you know,
the madrasa school, outside activities, sports, whatever it
may be within the community, too many of our young people have
been, you know, abused within this community structure, the Muslim
community structure. And there is that, that you know, keep quiet,
don't say anything, that blame mentality. But then on another
outlook, I've come to, I've come from some of the you know, things
that I've been reading again, through a lot of the time,
somebody's parents who are quick to shift their children. Also
victims of the very same children are going through and they haven't
heard, nor have, they come to the process of understanding with
example, if we look at the female, certain community, a lot of the
time is done by the Auntie's is done by the women, the aggression
that takes place within our community
may
cause a
lot gone through things that they deemed to think are, you know,
okay, or simple. It's just a way of life. It's our culture, how we
were born. And then they implement this onto the journey continues
through into a cycle where you find young people, obviously, with
social media, and being in a new immigration where young people are
just more all about, and like, like one panelist said, we like
to.
So for now, we seek to test you know, that
one in every six women have been sexually abused. But we think for
some reason, the Muslim women organize if some reason to fix
don't apply to us. We try to, you know, making ourselves us and
then, and I feel a lot of
100% I think I might have lost you there. But this is something that
I really, firstly, before we go into the Muslim attitudes
specifically, and also the victim blaming, I want to go over to
Camilla but one of the things one of the questions I have is, you
know, in our communities, many of our communities the issue of
honor, okay, and family honor and family name, and your police in
the community is paramount, right? And this whole thing of having
laid off for your family members, so I'm going to ask Brother Musa
as the only male on the panel today, how come is it that if you
hear that someone has touched your child, or hurt your child, like,
how come your instinct is not to go and kill that person? But how
come you're innocent or is it that the men are not told? Or what's
happening because I would expect, you know, in this framework of is
there an invader and all of this, I would expect a father to hear
something like that his first instinct would be, I'm going to
kill him. But we're not really seeing that happening. So am I
getting the wrong end of the stick? Is it that the men are not
told? Is it women keeping the secrets? What's happening?
I feel like again, coming from someone who embraces, I feel like
coming from a river,
and emotional about the Muslim community, you know, that aspect
of if someone touches one of mine, then something has to happen. I
don't know any Bronco, that will be that will be different from
that. But then, like I say, the last, you know, my last 1011 12
years have been the Muslim culture. I feel like already
coaches that, you know, our community come from women,
sometimes, you know, put to the side. And they were like a second
class citizen in a lot of the things that happened within the
community and family. And I feel like that also shows where, like,
when I put when I speak, or I've been in, in Muslim communities,
and especially sometimes women have seen as a burden, or when
they get married, they then you know, end up with the with the
husband's family, they're no longer our problem, how much money
are we going to get for our daughter, how much is the matter,
all of these type of things where it's as if it's like, you know,
that we raised this woman or this child, and then when she gets to a
certain age, she gets married, and she goes off, and we never did,
it's like the women have just passed on to the male families
poacher understanding the women, I've seen one. But for a lot of
what I've seen, and I feel like this is why sometimes when things
are said, you know, women are treated a certain way is asking
for us, a realtor to run, we're asked to talk many times one of
the topics
and forced marriages, and things like that. But looking into
searchers, because the Muslim community, we're not just one
culture, there's many cultures within in our community. And
people, you know, tend
differently all the time, when you come to understand some of the
pressures within the code.
Communities, they build businesses, and organizations that
are dependent on the community support. And so here you have a
father who has a shop that's been going for 20 years, and he's shot
and his livelihood, and paying his bills and support his family back
home is all based on this community supporting them and
giving them everything, someone from that community asked for his
daughter's hand in marriage, and he refuses, and then he's dealt
with threats of the community boycott in him, you know, his
business going down during the stuff like that. I feel like
there's so much social pressures that go into a situation,
sometimes it's easy for us to kind of look at it from, you know, from
the outside in and think like, what are the men doing? Or like,
what's the issue, and it's easy for us to talk on it. I feel like
there's just so many things to unpack within the Muslim community
in terms of why some pressures are how they are, it's not excusable,
but it's something that, you know, I've had to look at before I just
come out and speak, I have to understand the nuance. Next, the
politics of what's really going on here, because like you said, Isn't
anything hold on? He's first thought should be to protect his
daughter to protect his family, like, why is he thinking like
this, but a lot of the time, there's so much social pressure.
And we see this within any walks of life with young people that
the circumstances a lot, and sadly, I feel like the women
suffer a lot. When when it comes to this in terms of what we're
seeing today, then not being believed, or them being, you know,
like them being overlooked and, and just being treated as if
they're not worthy of anything, because some of the stories that
you hear you think, how can a mother or father stand by and
allow something like this to happen to their child knowingly
that the child has come to them and said this and this has
happened, and ushering them into believing or to stay in quiet? I
want to go to thank you so much for that, Melissa. I would like to
go to Camilla now because I know that you're familiar with this
whole dynamic. So what's the deal with the victim being blamed? She
did something she must have done something she wasn't dressed
appropriately. She was in the wrong place at the wrong time. You
know, she asked for it. She did something to to allow this to be
what is where is that coming from?
Well, before I answer that, I've noticed that quite a few people
have been putting in the comments speaking about boys being molested
as well. So I think it was very important for us to touch on that
just a little bit that women do also abuse. It's a small, small
percentage. But yes, we mean to also abused
and men do
also abused boys.
So this is something that we do need to look at.
I don't know is the internet? Can you hear me clearly? No, it's
okay, now I've muted everyone else. Okay. Right. So
basically, what we have to look at is that there are other modules
here. So, as I said, women do right boys, they do abuse boys.
And you see the dynamics again, shift, whereas it's like, Oh, come
on, like he was 14. And, you know, she was a this hot teacher or
whatever. And it's not viewed the same. It's not viewed the same as
a man who would be a teacher molesting a 13 year old girl, that
is sort of like her as well. And it's like a cultural thing. It's
resist Him. And yeah, a pat on the back, you know, oh, well, you
managed to pull that female teacher. So I so how society?
So yeah, so again, we forget about that. And we also forget about
that boys are actually abused as well. And this is something that
when we talk about shaming, victim blaming, you have this almost it's
like a consensus that you can't say anything. Because if we talk
about our son being abused, and everyone will think he's a
homosexual, everyone wanting to being abused by a man, yeah, by a
man. Yeah, then everyone will think he's a homosexual, everyone
will think he's this way inclined. Whereas this is like an irrational
fear. You know, it's an irrational fear. And this irrational fear and
this, what people call honor, it's like I was saying, to think to
yourself the other day, when you think of this word, honor,
something that would make a man, take his daughter, Chopper up,
torture her and kill her because she hasn't married somebody who he
wants her to marry. This is a barrier that is so hard to
penetrate. And something that is so important for people to
understand is until you can penetrate this barrier, you can't
even start to talk to people about abuse. You can't even get them to
see that it's actually incorrect. And that it is so so horrific and
wrong. You really,
it's, it's, you know, there's a colleague of mine, as I said,
she's there, and she can probably talk a lot more about it
afterwards. Because she knows a lot more about it, but it's
something definitely that I have seen within the community that I
work in. That definitely is honor and this victim blaming. So victim
blaming, and, you know, we're just as guilty of it as anyone else.
You know, look what she was wearing.
Why was she on her own in the room with him?
You know, well, everyone knows that she likes going to certain
places. She must have asked for it. You know, I had a scenario
where I spoke to somebody about a young girl was walking through a
park, on her way home, was brutally attacked and raped. And
the first thing they said, Well, why was she walking through the
park on her own, but it happened to be I said it was in the
evening. It happened to be in the summer it was about 730. So it was
still light. And the park was adjacent to our house but straight
away. We wanted to ask why was she in the park not, you know, talk
about this perpetrator who had raped her, but placed the blame at
her door for going about her daily business, walking through the park
and going home. We had another incident where a mother
walked in on her nephew, saw him pulling up his trousers, it was
obvious he had done something to her daughter. She didn't say a
word, not a word to the boy or the daughter.
The boy went out she didn't ask her daughter anything. And the
daughter noticed after about two, three weeks, she didn't see the
cousin come to the house. And she went to the mother and she
attempted to speak to the mother and her mother told her I don't
ever want you to speak to me because of you. I've lost my
brother.
So she was more concerned about the fact that she should want her
brother. This is what I've seen. He's taking the child away. And
she was more concerned about not seeing her brother than what she'd
walked in on Subhan Allah so again, this girl was late to Phil,
she was to blame. So there's so many instances of it and we are
guilty of it. You know, we are the first to say well, you know, look,
she was out there in a miniskirt. She was drunk. She was talking to
this one. What did you expect? But then what about a woman who goes
out who's covered and she's raped? And we know this happens we know
that it does know that it was just to jump in there. You know when
when people when people talk about and I'm coming to you Sophia after
in Charlotte, so I got you
this whole thing about you know, they the girl being too sexy.
That's why he did that because she was too sexy. either. She's too
beautiful or she showed herself in a way where she behaved in a way.
How then do we rationalize when it's infants, you know, when it's
hodlers out the biller, you know when it's four or five year old
children. This for me is something that I can't really wrap my head
around so
Oh Subhanallah this no, this we Yeah, anyway, we're gonna we're
gonna go into that inshallah. But yeah, it's, yeah, go ahead.
Just like a lot of hair, some amazing points will lie. And I
think, you know, this, this session won't give it justice. But
I think it's really important that we touch on everything just to
kind of bring it to to our forefront and maybe Charlotte as a
community, we can address it more and can explore it, and maybe come
back to it as well. I think one thing in terms of the interesting
fathers and fathers not what, why don't we hear the Father did
something to somebody because somebody did to his daughter,
again, it goes back to the shame element. And if I swiftly kind of
drain, you know, concentrate on the Somali community specifically,
and even forget this country for a second, you know, back home, you
would hear some girl who is what 10 years old, abused by a big
grown man. And the next thing you will hear is the family paid
compensation to the tribal, the father or the family. And
therefore, now they will marry the daughter.
That's been done. And maybe she's too young. So we'll wait for her
to get older until she does. So I think it goes back to the fact
where they're so overwhelmed by trying to hide the shame and the
consequences that their child has faced, to the extent that they
that they would put their child at the forefront to say, hey, you
know, you've done something together, go and marry. And I
think it's really important also to highlight in certain situations
where it's actually your Muharram that does it. So how do you deal
with that? What do you do if it's your real uncle? What do you do if
it's your, if it's your father, as well, we've heard cases of
situations like that. And I think it's really important to, to know
that sometimes even in your household, what are they going to
say that she didn't cover up in her household in front of her
uncle, of course, she then because she doesn't have to do that. So
these are sick people that need to be dealt with. And and when I say
dealt with, unless, as a community, we start punishing the
perpetrators, unless people start going into prison. Unless as a
community, we start naming and shaming the perpetrators, we're
sending a strong signal to the younger generation to the next
generation to highlight and say, actually, if you do X, Y, and Zed,
you will be put in prison because this country has laws and remember
the laws of this country is that if someone does commit a crime,
and this is a crime we're talking about, and you, you brush it under
the carpet, you are also a part of it, you know, there is
consequences for you as well, you are a part of that, that that that
that sexual roof, what they call it, the ring, circle, or whatever
they might call it, that that network of abusers, the one who
abuses the one who goes silent and Islamically, we know that if you
can't stop with your hands, you know that there are things for you
to do. But being silent and leaving it to happen is not
something that comes from my dean, nor comes from my natural human
instinct. And remember, if you don't speak up for the victim, and
you don't ensure that they get the justice, then what are you sending
to the victim, you're saying it's okay to abuse someone, and then
they become potential abusers as well, because it happened to me
and nothing happened to the abuser. And now I have all these
feelings, and sexuality that I need to experience. So I think as
a community know this, that if you don't deal with it now, as parents
as community as Muslims, if we don't deal with it, now, we're
saying it's okay, and we've got your back as the abuser, because
it's easier to support the abuser than to support the victim. And
that's something really important I want you guys to digest, it's
easier to support the victim or the perpetrator because you all
you have to do is go sign it. And it's harder to support the victim
because now you have to go through the whole process, you have to get
them the specialist help and support that they need. You have
to make sure that you tell them that you believe them, you support
them. So I think as a community, we need to come out of our comfort
zone, we need to have this discussion with our children. But
when something happens, it is far upon your Father upon you to speak
out, speak out for the hub, speak out for the victims and make sure
that you protect them because you're predicting the next
generation as well. So I feel that you've just given a whole word
there and I just want 100% cosign that and I hope you know
mashallah, I hope everyone here understands this. We have the
ability to turn the tide in this generation. We have the ability,
Masha, Allah, how many of you are parents in this room? Just give a
yes. You know, in the comments, how many of us are parents, we all
parents here? Most of us have got children no matter what age, which
means that there is something we can do here. And I don't want
anybody to feel like, you know, the community is this big entity
that can't be changed. It can't be controlled. Culture can't be
changed. Culture is dynamic. It's changing all the time. And the
fact that we are here in this gathering, having this
conversation, this is a change. And I don't want anybody to
underestimate this because it's literally a situation of each one
teach one. The lovely had the amazing panelists, we've got here,
all with their different expertise and specialisms come
coming together to teach us so that we can then tweet about it,
put it on Instagram, but more importantly speak to our family
members and our friends and enact these, these these principles
within our homes. So without the biller, if this ever comes to any
of us, we at least know a, what the signs are, which we're going
to talk about and be what is the correct way to deal with this?
What is the way for us to be able to start really making people feel
consequences because I'm sorry, I just have to save for a second
here. I really feel this jumping off brother nooses point within
the Muslim community, crimes against women, in general, are
enabled, whether it is abuse, sexual abuse, domestic violence,
you know, whatever divorces or this kind of thing. We are
surrounded by enablers because it's easier, as you said, to
support the perpetrator to keep things quiet, to keep the peace to
keep the status quo than it is to stand up for the hawk and for
justice. So with that in mind, who would like to speak on a, what
parents should be looking out for? And B, the next question is, you
know, there's, there's a point here, because we were discussing,
I discussed this with several of you beforehand. And this issue of,
you know, the victim what the victim could have done what she
should have done. Camilla, you mentioned something very important
when we were talking about this, because you were talking about how
the focus is always on what the victim did what the victim should
have done. But what is the question actually, that we should
be asking? Is it about the victim or somebody else? Who should we
should be talking about? It's definitely about the perpetrator.
And, you know, something I always say is that we need to understand
that blame lies 100% with the perpetrator, the perpetrator is
the one that has committed the crime, and they have committed the
act against that victim, the victim sheds no part in the blame
whatsoever. And I know there'll be people that because they're in
some form of denial, or the way they've been conditioned, will
still have that idea or that ideology, will, you know, yes, it
was the way she was dressed, no, the perpetrator had no control is
a predator. And that's what they chose to do. So the blame lies
100% with them, in regards to bringing people to justice. This
is something, again, that I'll say that Justice looks like different
things to different people. So you may have some victims,
survivors that will say, Well, do you know what I told somebody, and
they actually believed me, after 10 years, someone actually
believed me. And for me, that was enough. That was enough. I just
wanted someone to believe me, you may not have another person that
says, Well, I want everyone to know that that's what he is. I
want everyone to know that he abuses children or he abuses
women. And then you might have some that say, well, actually, I
want it to go all the way to court. And I want this person to
be imprisoned. So we can't put it in one box. It's different things
for different people. And we always have to bear in mind what
that victim and survivor wants. Because maybe when they're saying
to at that time, I just wanted someone to believe me, five years
down the line, they may come back and say actually, now I've got the
strength, and I want that person prosecuted. So something that we
need to be very careful of is that we don't push anyone to do
something that they're going to feel uncomfortable with. Because
when someone's pushed, and they're already fragile, and they're
suffering from trauma, it can have devastating consequences, it can
end up with that person taking their life, turning to drugs,
turning to alcohol. So we have to understand that we've started this
but everyone has to bear in mind, this is just the beginning of the
journey. It's not going to change overnight, we have got a mountain
to climb. At the moment, we're at the bottom of the mountain, but
we've started the climb, and we've got a mountain to climb. And we've
got to keep educating our people are communities and talking about
this, and getting them to understand the role they play in
it. And a question you asked me the other day about can we prevent
it? The answer to that is actually the person who can prevent it is
the perpetrator, the person who is committing that crime. However,
what we can do is we can have a look at what share of the blame we
take. And is that blame that we're not focused enough? Is it that we
don't teach our children is it that we're complicit in covering
it up? Of that? Yes, so many in the community are guilty. But the
actual person who commits the act that lies 100% with them
I just want to just jump in with a Sharia I see you there girl up I'm
coming to you, Brother Abdullah had Stevenson has joined us
brother you
on video.
Welcome, salam, I really wanted to be able to bring you in just to
educate all of us, I guess, on the Shediac perspective, because I
think we've discussed the issue of, of honor, and is that as it's
culturally known, and also the idea that people feel like the big
picture, Jonnie peace and keeping the peace and keeping ties of
kinship is more important than kind of justice or healing for a
victim of sexual abuse. So I think, for all of us who are
watching, is there an Islamic case for, like, lying about abuse, or
hiding it? Or kind of trying to shush it or anything like that? Is
there an Islamic basis for that?
Bismillah. First of all, I like to echo what Sister Camilla was
speaking about, I think she made some very strong points. And I
really,
you know,
what she said about you that you shouldn't really push the victim
because, you know, they know kind of how they want to address it and
move forward. That might be for example, you know, mentioned and
then someone knowing about it being enough for them, so that
they can stop it, from continuing to might be the case that later on
down the line, they want, they're more vocal, they want to take it
further. I think that's really an important point that she made,
generally speaking, obviously, it's a crime. And once the
allegations been made, then it has its, it has to be dealt with, it
can't be hashed up. If other than, say, hash it up, hide it, you
know, don't, you know, keep silent, don't speak about it, it's
a very serious thing that's happened. And, you know, it has to
be addressed. Because it's a crime that's been committed. And
obviously, justice, it has to be, Justice has to basically prevail.
And that justice is, you know, has many different forms, it may be
one of the ways that that Justice happens is obviously the person
that's done the action than the, you know, taken to account for
that, whether it's legally in the here, for example, you know, in
the case where it's taken to the police, or whether it's something
which they're prevented from doing that. And it's made known, for
example, that, you know, allegation has been made, it's an
allegation, and it's, you know, has to be proven, but there has to
be a basically a process a due process. One thing I want to
highlight, and it might not be popular, because there seems to be
social media has made it very easy to for for allegations, and then
not be necessarily,
you know, it's not dealt with in a, it's become a kind of like a
kangaroo court where a person is on the likeliest you're speaking
about is actually, you know, tarnished. And the allegations are
not substantiated, or they haven't been dealt with in the proper way.
There hasn't been a due process. And one thing which Islam was
clear about is that allegations, there needs to be a due process,
basically, I think that's something which needs to be
highlighted as well. Okay. So if somebody said to you, you know, as
Muslims, we should cover the sins of our brother, we shouldn't
expose the sins if Allah hasn't exposed him, then you shouldn't
expose him what what, what's, what's your take on that?
Why the most, I think that's incorrect when it comes to raising
the case against somebody. So for example, there's no backbiting
that comes to raising a case,
you know, against a person or against an individual, then
backbiting doesn't come into cabinets, things are coming
through, that's not the issue, which is at hand present, because
there's been a crime, for example, has been committed. So that
doesn't come that doesn't come into it at all. Okay, it never has
done ever has done. Okay. So, so Okay, I think Well, I think one I
think one thing, which is clear, and I don't think it's something
which is
only men that do do it is women and men or in relationship, so
relationships, utilizing the dean to cover the to allow them to
continue to try to transgress, or to go beyond boundaries with
regards to relationships are the rights of another person. And
that's something that needs to be kind of, you know, stopped at the
terms of control and manipulation.
There's a fine line. I have something else as well to add on
this. Okay. So when we're talking about abuse by family members,
just like sister Sophia mentioned about abuse by the Muslim. So
obviously, we know that the rules of hijab are, you know, relaxed in
front of a Muslim as Allah has said
Do what is your advice for parents and I just want to make it clear
to everybody here. In general, the virtual salon is a mixed space.
Y'all need to come up here with your husbands and your spouses and
your brothers and your sisters and your big kids. Okay, it is that
kind of space, it is not assistance only discussion, it
this type of conversation can never be a sisters only
discussion. This is a community issue. Okay, so brother of the
warhead, I have a question with regards to hijab and, and just
trusting the Muslim because if it's happening within the family,
as mothers and fathers, what is what should we be doing? Because
obviously, we're much more relaxed around the people who are the
karate, the people who are supposed to be close to us
Islamically, you know, who are supposed to be relaxed and feel
safe around? You know, what, what's your advice to us? Now, as
we do know, that isn't the majority? What's the percentage
guys? Anyone just unmute and say, Tell me what the percentage is?
What should you? What's the percentage of abuse that happens
as a result of trauma from a close family member? 90% of children
that are victims of childhood sexual abuse, are abused by people
they know and love and trust. So
the median is number one, nine. It's the number one so what
Islamically? What are we saying?
I'm Yeah, so is that? Yeah, so my question is, you know, what, what
do we do with that, knowing on the one hand that, you know,
Islamically, these are the carotid, these are people we
should be able to trust with our children, etc. But then also
knowing that 90% of perpetrators will be of those close, you know,
of those close family members, how do we now balance that within our
families? And that the dynamic within our families?
Yeah, I mean, I think it's important not, um, there's two
aspects of this. There's an aspect that this is something which is a
Muslim issue.
It's a societal one, obviously, of course, you know, so that's the
first thing. The second thing is, is with regards to mushrooms, and
it'd been family members, then, generally speaking, you're
speaking about? I mean, you're you know, in most cases, you're
talking about, for example, family members that are non, I guess, I'd
have to see the data. But I'm assuming that you're speaking
about uncles that are not not necessarily people that are
supposed to be there not immediate family members, hopefully, I'm not
sure, I'd have to look at the data. I don't know what the data
says. But I mean, this, I mean, this type of situation is avoided
in two ways. Number one, the boundaries of Islam talks about,
then,
you know, segregation of the sexes, with regards to sitting
down together. And then there's other aspects of, even when they
may be mounted on for example, it's not necessarily it's not
necessarily that they're going to be alone, in,
you know, circumstances which facilitates this is appointment
facilitates, and allows for sexual abuse to happen. So for example,
it generally, it generally doesn't happen.
Publicly, it's generally privately, they're doing some type
of kind of, you know, you know, you know, sleeping over stuff,
like, you know, these things and a lot of, you know, private contact
is there.
In some of our households, the kind of a lot of footfall a lot of
relatives in and out a lot of friends or relatives coming in and
out, should you decide to go to you for a second just to, just to
educate us a little bit. Inshallah, on what, how can we
equip our children to to be that first line of defense? In a way,
obviously, there's something that we can do in terms of regulating
the environment, but what do our children what do we need to teach
them? And when do we start teaching them? Okay, thank you so
much for asking me that, um, what the first thing we need to do is
we as parents, we need to be educated so that we can empower
our children. So how do we educate ourselves? I remember previously
you asked a question, what is it that you look for within sexual
abusers? So if a parent can know this information, then they can
keep an eye out? Because there's a process called grooming and I'm
speaking specifically about childhood sexual abuse, and what
the grooming process it's, it's over a period of time, because
with Child sexual abusers, they don't immediately just go and *
your child, they develop a level of trust, and they, they develop a
level of trust and they see how they can cross boundaries. So they
see if they can cross the boundary where they start with secrets. You
know, this is just our secret. Your mom says you can't have any
ice cream, but I'm gonna give it to you anyway, that's our secret.
That way they know that they can constantly teach the child to keep
the secret. So as a parent if you teach one at a party safety rules,
which is we don't care
keep secrets in our home. And that sexual abuser tells the child this
is our secret. And it may be a simple secret like, I'm gonna give
you this gift. This is our secret you're not supposed to. We're
already jacked, but I'm gonna give you this you can wear it at my
house a secret, even if it's an auntie, it's an uncle. It's a
grandmother. It's a nanny. It's a me whoever your child says, No,
we're not allowed to keep secrets. They know that your child has been
educated with the body safety rules, they are going to leave
your child and they're going to look for someone more vulnerable,
that they can attack because they don't want to be found out. So if
you arm yourself with knowing prevention, education, but
teaching your children a body safety rules, such as I am the
boss of my body, I am in control of my body. My body belongs to me.
I don't have to give any form of affection when you say kiss Carla
give Carla kiss.
You gotta you're being rude. No, I don't want to kiss call. I don't
want to kick call. I don't want to kiss my auntie. I don't want to
kiss my uncle. I don't know, I just really just jump in there for
a second because this is a big cultural thing. Certainly. And
African cultures. We haven't been respecting our elders. And really,
you know, you're supposed to do what your parents tell you. If the
if the duck gronckle wants a hug, you give him a hug. Otherwise,
you're being rude. You're being disrespectful. If Auntie wants a
kiss, you know, there isn't an idea of kind of consent when it
comes to children, or respecting of boundaries when it comes to
children. I think this is a very new thing, guys. Let me know in
the comments if you agree. But should you have you seen this to
be like a new thing? Is this something we should be teaching
our children for example, I had a stepson who did not like physical
contact at all. But everyone always forced him, of course,
because he's a kid, right? So they wouldn't grab him, he would run
away from them, but they would actually chase him and hug him.
And they will be like, No, that's rude hug Auntie Auntie wants a
hug. Auntie wants a hug. And he would keep resisting and being
weird about it until I realized that in the end, this is a
boundary for him like this is something he's not comfortable
with, for whatever reason, is that something we should be respecting?
In our children? Yes. And that's something that we should teach.
And as adults, we should also say, Why is he uncomfortable with
hugging it? Why is he running away? What is he trying to tell us
because what happens is, when we force our children to show
affection, we're teaching them that you don't, you're not in
charge of your body, you don't have the right to your body, you
are not allowed to establish boundaries. So what happens when a
sexual abuser goes to touch them? They don't know how to establish
the boundaries and say, no, stop. I don't want to do that. You're
not supposed to do that. Why? Because you forced me to hurt
someone, you force someone to touch me. And that person that you
can be forcing could be a sexual abuser. So it's important to teach
your child you are the boss of your body. You can say, now you
have to speak, you have to give sedans, but if you can give, you
can show affection any way you want to. But you also as parents,
you have to teach other adults that so that you're not forcing
our children. If I need your child, I'll say to your child, and
even my nieces and nephews. And I've even had a parent tell me
what huggers? What do you ask if I say can I give you a high five?
Can I give you a hug? Why? Because I'm teaching that child that they
have the right to their body. They're the boss of their body,
they are in control if they don't want to be touched. Even me,
auntie, even me, mommy, even me, your teacher. I don't have to, I
don't have to have you. I'm an educator. I've been in the
education industry for over 20 years, I lived in Morocco, and
Syria. I lived in UAE. I taught in Erlang for five years. And we know
that our culture, you kiss and you hug and do whatever. But I'm not
forcing a child because I'm taking away their boundaries. And I'm
making them feel like they don't have the right to speak out that
they don't feel comfortable. We have to move this out of our
culture. We have to move this away from Islam, because we're taking
away the children's power. Also, we have to learn one up because
there's five body safety rules. You know, one, like I said, the
secrets I spoke about secrets, why we shouldn't teach our children to
keep secrets because of the secret relationship that sexual abusers
create. They create a secret sexual relationship. This is just
you and I, they find a child that is vulnerable. They chat, find the
job that doesn't know the body safety rules, they find the child
that needs a little bit more attention. They find the chat and
then you know, I'm going to give you sneakers I'm going to give you
this heat job. I'm going to call you all they listen to the child
and the things that the child complains about. And they become
their special person. They become their special friend. And this is
our secret. Don't tell anyone we eliminate secrets at the age of
three. This is when we teach the body safety rules. And we teach it
over and over and over and over again. So that if the sexual
abuser tries to tell them to keep a secret, oh wait
don't keep secrets, that's against the rules, they will go on to the
next child. So that's what that's how we are protecting our
children. In addition, we don't talk about this in Islam, you have
to teach your children the proper names of their party parts, we
have to talk about the body, we have to call the private part for
what it is, we have to have these discussions. Why this? Yeah, I'm
gonna just wait. I just want to jump in there. Just jump in there
quickly, because it's actually kicking off in the comments. And I
know that this is a real edge for parents. It really I know, I
remember working with a woman who was a nurse and all her children
knew that, you know, the Anna the names of the anatomy. And I was
scandalized. I was so shocked. I was like, oh, no, you did? And she
was like, Oh, yes, I did. Explain why should we be using the the why
can't we say twinkle and tutu and all of this stuff, which makes it
sound cute. What is the problem with that? I'll tell you a story.
There was a little girl she was in either preschool or kindergarten,
maybe four or five years old. She went to school will love story.
And she was telling her teacher, my uncle, like my cookie, my
alcoholic my cookie, and she was saying it over and over again. So
the teacher she didn't pay it any mind. Because Okay, he cookie he
liked your cookie was the big deal. And the little girl she went
on for like, two, three days trying to disclose her abuse. But
because she didn't know the proper name of her private part, what
happened? She didn't she didn't get any help. She didn't get any
help. And when a child needs to disclose the abuse that's
happening, they need to be able to say she touched my private part.
And by its name, she touched he touched it. Also it removes, it
removes the shame. It removes the blame. It helps to remove the
discomfort. It's just about the part. It's a part of your body,
just like your eyes, your nose, your ears, your mouth, so that you
can constantly have these conversations. When we talk about
the body. Children talk about the body real life story, there was a
boy who was being abused by a woman. She was his nanny from the
age of four until seven, she lived with this point. And although they
talked about sexual abuse in their home, they didn't talk about it.
The mother didn't know what to do when when she suspected it. But
the boy wouldn't say anything. When the boy opened up to disclose
the abuse to his mother, he said
I was scared to go into the bathroom, because I thought they
were going to come in and touch me. The same way for Lana touched
me. She touched me in my and he said the name of his private area,
and it hurt. What did that do that let the mother know without a
shadow of a doubt what this person did. And the little boy was
confident enough to talk about his favorite part. Then what happened
after that the mother started showing him pictures of the
amazing body, which is a child's book, the child's book where you
talk about how babies are made, talked about the woman's the
woman's body, the child's body, it helps the child who at that time
was nine years old to have the vocabulary, the child walked
around for some four or five years thinking he got the meat pregnant
because of what happened to his body. What happened to his body.
So if we talked about the body, and and we've had these
conversations with our children, it will help your child to know
No, this isn't supposed to be happening until you're an adult.
This is what happens to your body. The end. Like I said, it removes
the discomfort. And that's what we want to do. We want to remove the
discomfort so we can constantly teach our children about body
safety. If we don't talk about the body, we can't talk about body
safety. We can't make it disgusting and nasty. You have a
penis, it's just something that's that's all voice. And you teach
your sons the name. And you teach your daughters the names. And I
just Yeah, you said it. So there you go.
I'm
talking about and there's two more important because you asked me
about the body safety rules. There's two more parts. So we
talked about the private part. We talked about, you know, teaching
your children that they are in charge of their body. We talked
about the secrets we have to also teach our children what their
private areas what their their private parts are. Not just the
names but you know teaching them the mouth. It's a private point.
What you know, even though we can see it, everything covered by your
bathing suit as a private blog, put your mouth as a private part
two. Why? Because sexual abusers may never, ever, ever penetrate
your child, but they may tell the child to perform oral * on them
or they may perform oral * on your child. My mouth is a private
party.
No one should touch my mouth. No one should make me touch them in
their mouth. So we have to teach them that. And the last one, which
is so important for parents, and children, creating safety circles,
what we find with a lot of parents is what goes on the mouth stays in
my house, you are only to come to me, I am the one on your mother,
you know, I'm your only that's your Abby, don't talk to anyone
else. Parents get children make it to a point where they don't want
to tell their parents, something is happening with them. Their
parents may be the perpetrators. So we create safety circles, which
is five people that we know and we trust that knows the body safety
that your child can disclose to them, and they can help your
child. So this is a very, very, very important part of safety,
body safety education, having five people and your child needs to
know you can and you sit down with your child and you create that
safety circle. And you say, Okay, you go to ATM, ATM, if Maryam
doesn't get you help you go to Aqua use it. If the user doesn't
get you out, you go to your teacher, if your teacher doesn't
get you out, but one of the people from the safety circle cannot be a
part of the family. Why
my brother is sexually abusing my child. And just like the men and
the brother was saying earlier, if it's someone in a family, and we
want to protect the family's name, we want to protect the family
honor, and this child is telling and no one in the family is
helping that one person that is not a part of the family is going
to get your child help. Because I have allegiance to this child, I
don't have allegiance to this family, I'm going to report this
abuse, I'm going to get justice for this child, I'm going to get
therapy for this show. And this child is going to know that they
are safe because I help them. So those are ways in minimizing one
to one scenarios with our children. Pay attention to anyone
that gives your child a little bit extra attention. Pay attention to
someone that constantly wants to be around children, give them
gifts, always, you know, tickling, playing roughhousing pay attention
to all of that, because those are the things that sexual abusers do
to bring my children. I know I have to let someone else speak.
We're gonna have to have like some kind of graphic with those rules.
Insha Allah says, And definitely we will share that with everybody
who's on the mailing list. So
yeah, and there's a book and we will send the link to the book to
the mailing lists as well in Sharla. Thank you so much. Yes,
Rosalie. Hi, I just want to add to that as well. Another thing with a
girl, especially if you have daughters, and when it comes to
them wearing the hijab, don't say it is because you're pretty. And
you don't want because I know this happens a lot that people say to
the daughter that oh, you need to cover yourself because you're too
pretty. Now what that does is it creates that shame in the girl and
makes us think that I'm going to be victimized or something's going
to happen to me if I don't wear the hijab. No, I don't cover my
face, because I think I'm beautiful. I cover my face because
I believe there's a commandment from Allah. And you have to teach
your children that difference. Rather than objectifying the hijab
and sexualizing it, you're telling them the reason why you're wearing
it is for the, for the sake of Allah is a commandment from Allah.
So anything I wanted to add to that
Kamila did you want to jump in?
And also, knowing that break is the act of control is not an act
of intimacy. It's not because you're cute. It's not because of
your beautiful. It's an act of power, and it's an act of control.
*, that's different. You know, that's different. There's
sexual abusers too, but they literally actually they lust over
any child that doesn't show any form of puberty without him. But
sexual abuse is not a form of because you're cute, because
you're beautiful, because I finally love you because
you were to this. Okay. That's important to know, as Pamela. Yes.
Camilla. Yeah. So um, just something that was touched on
earlier that I just wanted to go back to when we're talking about
90%. And the system is saying about 90% of children knowing who
their abuser was, and I think it was picked up that it would be a
family member. But that's it. That's not what it is, although
familiar is number one, it will be someone they know and that person
could be their teacher, their scout leader, their Quran teacher,
so it will be someone that is familiar to them. That is what the
statistics will say. It's so I think it was interpreted when I
was a while he was he was speaking to Abdullah he was interpreted as
family members. Um, they're included and it also is family
members, and it's asset people that they know and trust and love.
So now, yeah, no, I know you did this, but I think the brother
picked it up incorrectly as family so I was just highlighting that
maybe that was my bed because I went in there with the Macron
thing. Yes, yes. I'm just watching
case anyone misunderstood that there is people that they know and
trust. So let's, let's just take a round up. Now Inshallah, because
of time, I know that it's a really, really, we could probably
talk about this for the next three hours. But let's for the sake of
the this session, let's round up with our thoughts on what parents
need to be aware of, or what can parents do differently from today,
listening to the session hearing from you know, you guys and
thinking about these issues for ourselves? How can parents empower
themselves to share to to to help their children to shield their
children to help them, you know, to keep them safe. If you'd like
to just go, I'll start with Camilla and go around. Before we
wrap up the session and go into q&a afterwards. Go ahead to
knowledge, knowledge, does knowledge of what abuses the forms
that it takes, who could be a perpetrator, and having the
knowledge and the confidence and being equipped with knowing how,
how to react if your child discloses, because your reaction
says a lot, and who you can go to for help, because as I said, it's
a long journey. And it's very easy to kind of bash parents, but
you've got to remember, some of them are really ignorant about it,
or it's been intergenerational. So Well, it happened to me, and we,
I'm alright, you know, I've had 10 kids with your dad, and we've made
a go of it. So you can make a go of it. So as much as we might feel
anger and thinking, Well, why did you turn that blind eye, we also
have to realize that that person may have actually been a victim as
well. And that we need to, you know, everyone wants the same
results. We want justice, but we need to think about how we go
about getting that. So I think that's definitely important when
we're dealing with parents. We're not to jump off on a tangent here.
But do you not feel that once it's disclosed and reported, it's
almost out of your hands, kind of what happens? You don't have to
brother do what he was saying? Basically, if you know that
there's been abuse, and you do not disclose, you could be? Well, it's
a crime, firstly, and that, you know, you couldn't even get drawn
in there. So you were saying earlier, which I thought was
really important, us respecting the wishes of the victim, and how
the victim wants to see justice. But once it's handed over to the
justice system, isn't that out of our hands? Really?
No, yes. And no, not always necessarily. Because, as I said,
that if say, for instance, it might be someone who's older that
discloses to you, and it may have been something that happened to
them when I'm really young. At that time, there may not be no
duty on you to report it. However, obviously, it's a five year old
child telling you then you're duty bound to report it. Again, there
is a system in place. And yes, you're saying it can be taken out
of your hands. But what I'm talking about is maybe an adult
who has been abused, they're now older, so they're over 18. And
they've come to you and they've said, Well, you know, this is what
I want, at this moment in time, I don't have the courage and I don't
have the strength to go to court, I cannot face my perpetrator,
whatever, in regards to a child. And this is completely different.
And for anyone who ever watched that documentary about the girls
in Rochdale, the three girls, that whole scandal and that court case
changed the way that you can deal with someone in court, the way
that you can talk to someone in a police station, so many things had
to come in place because those girls were taken. And they were
literally violated over and over again by the prosecution, by the
judges, by everybody. You know, these poor girls were, what they
were put through, you know, mothers described it, as, you
know, watching their child being thrown into a fire and having
their hands tied behind their back and not being able to do anything
for that child. So so many different things came into place
on how we react to this. So when we talk about that, of course,
yes, someone might be prosecuted. Definitely leave a child
discloses. But again, I've had disclosures from someone have a
four year old child and at the moment that authorities and the
police are very, very slow with it. There hasn't been an arrest
made, even though they know who the perpetrator is. And because
the reason why is because of the age of the perpetrators, and
they're now looking at, well, is this a perpetrator? Is this a
victim? So there's so it's really complex? It's not as black and
white. As someone discloses, you arrest the person and they go to
jail. Okay, okay. Thank you. And we're Yeah, fantastic. Sharia.
I, Camilla she, she said, So many. So many of the things that I would
actually have said also, but in addition, constantly have
conversations with your children. On Wednesdays on my Facebook page,
I am and my Instagram page, I have an activity called weather. And
it's what if scenarios and I say a lot of what if scenarios to
parents. I call up on Wednesdays to parents. And what if your child
said this to you?
Why did this happen? So now, I found that I'm going to have it
for children, so that we can say this, I can say these different
scenarios to them. And just to reduce their vulnerability, and
let them be free to talk about how they will respond. If this
happens, what would they say? What would they do? We have to
constantly have these conversations, take advantage of
teachable moments at all times, learn the body safety rules, teach
the body safety rules to our children, and create prevention
teams, create safety circles, those things are so important.
Educating yourself and educating your children will help will help
us to protect our children, because prevention is possible
through education and awareness. And I also offer workshops to for,
you know, the Muslim community. And but most importantly, like I
said, have these conversations, you know, teach the children about
the safety rules, go over what if scenarios, and let your child know
that if something like this happen to them, it is not their fault,
that you believe them, that they are safe, and you're going to get
them help, because you don't even know if your child has been abused
by someone. So they constantly hear these words, even if your
body responded and liked it, and they liked it. Know that it's not
your fault. There could be a mother abusing their child, it
could be your wife abusing your child, it could be your husband
abusing your child, but if we teach the child the body safety
rules and let them know, even if it's mommy, daddy, Auntie grandma,
anyone? My job is to keep you safe.
Yeah, yeah, just like Alfredo Rosaline. And so I don't want to
preempt what you're going to say. But I really would like you to
just offer, you know, the US as parents, you know, is it possible
to heal from the trauma of set of child sexual abuse 100% 100%,
especially with the work I do, which is the rapid
transformational therapy, actually take my my clients, the victims of
abuse, I tell them back to the event, and I help them review it,
not relive it. So a lot of us think that if I go back to the
traumatic event, I'm gonna, you know, be I'm gonna relive it, I'm
gonna feel the pain again. But no, I helped the person review. And
once you review it and change the meaning around it, usually the
meaning is, I'm a bad person, I'm too pretty. I asked for it. Maybe
I was wearing tight clothes, all these things that the women feel
because that's why the sexual abuse happen. That's the reason
why you feel traumatized by it, because you're blaming yourself.
So through rapid transformation therapy actually helped the client
overcome that, overcome that change that meaning to know I'm
taking my power back, I'm no longer going to let that
perpetrator have power over me, by making me feel bad about myself.
And that's the key to healing from the trauma of sexual abuse. So
for you know, for parents, we heard in the, in the chat in
particular, a lot of parents who say things like, how will you ever
get married, nobody will want to marry you, you know, if you
disclose, then you're like a tarnished, you know, like, damaged
person. You know, is it possible for, you know, victims of child
sexual abuse to go on to a healthy adult life and be healed? Yes,
definitely. 100% Because for me, personally, I was sexually abused
between the ages of birth to the age of four, and it was formed a
person that was obviously supposed to care for me. So for me, I
created unhealthy patterns as I grew up into teenage years. But
when I healed from that traumatic, traumatic event, I was able to put
boundaries in place. And I was able to stop people pleasing, stop
seeking validation, stop speaking, seeking love and attention, other
people. And I was able to give that to myself. It's something
that I do is call healing the child within. And a lot of us have
wounded children, especially when you're sexually abused and you're
an adult, you have a wounded child with a breach there isn't that
there is in the trauma, there's like something at that point. Yes,
I can't tell you the worst thing is that when your innocence is
taken away, and your trust at the same time, that is the worst place
to be in because you're you know, you're in a land of like, is like,
like a land of like never ending is that you remember the trauma,
but then you think you deserve Can I trust myself? Is this true? So
you can't your innocence has been taken away. Your trust has been
taken away, but it can be healed. Once you change the meanings that
you've created around that traumatic event. Does that allow
the warhead? Are you able to come on?
I just go to Sofia and come back to the warhead. I would like you
to maybe give us you know, what is the role of the masjid and imams
in this conversation?
With regards to I think there's a lot of valid points that
your guests have made. But I think with regards to the first of all,
just before we got to the Masters in
the community, like the Imams and stuff like that
is the reality of this type of scenario.
Your situation of abuse is a misuse of trust. And it's a bit
difficult to be able to, I think it was Camilla that was mentioned
and or one of your other guests, you need to address the
perpetrators. Because you're looking at, for example, an issue
of them doing something which is a crime, a sin is a, the biggest
breach of trust, basically. So it's a case of addressing as a
messenger, for example, the Imams, the community, it's not
necessarily about their sexual abuse that happens in the
community. And not it's about highlighting the severity of
betrayal of the manner that Allah soprano has given you, the muscle
Lee that you have with regards to your children, or with regards to,
for example, your siblings or your relatives, and I live and trying
to instill in people a basically an understanding that, you know,
there are certain things which when you do them, the consequences
going to be huge, basically, if this luck in the afterlife,
because ultimately you have to stop the perpetrator. It's
difficult after the time you speak about healing, you want to prevent
it before it happens. You don't want it to happen in the first
place. And I think that there's a danger. It's a very sensitive
topics are very difficult. But there's a danger also in
you know, at what point are questions?
With regards to teaching kids at what point do you teach them? Or
do you tell them of certain things that happen, like when they become
aware of it when it becomes relevant to them. So there's a
danger of actually, if you want to be careful not to implant in them
suspicion of everyone that they're supposed to trust at the same
time, as well as make them resilient. In case of that
happening, we don't want it to be feeling okay, that person could
potentially be, you know, every every touches and abuse, every
kiss is a, you get what I'm saying. So it's a very difficult
topic, when you're dealing with children, especially at a young
age, when you educate them on these things. So these things
haven't come to their mind, for example, but it's something that
could happen. So you have to be very careful. That's, I think, a
key point, which you don't want to kind of, you know, put something
in there, which isn't already there. You I mean, and then they
agree to mistrust of everybody. That's not how you're supposed to
know you can't go and live in thinking that everybody is a
potential abuser, that's also incorrect. Every close family
member who's for example, you know, you're sitting on your, you
know, with your, your, your glove on your plate off your desk, you
know, I mean, so you need to be careful. When you're dealing with
the kids. It's a very sensitive issue, you need to be very
careful. The main thing is the perpetrator, the perpetrator,
they're the one that needs to, you know, again, it's a very difficult
situation, like I said, so the Imams going back to the question,
the imams in the masajid, and the community leaders are taking me
through this because I don't think it's, I don't think it's just an
imam. It's a It's anyone that's a chief of a family, for example,
you know, he's got, he's got a large family, they meet up every
year, for example, he's got an obligation to remind everybody in
that family of their responsibility before Allah
subhanaw taala, the question, and the betrayal of the amount of the
beast of man, is it a matter of those that are vulnerable, whether
it's women who are under your care, or children are on the okay,
because you're given a position of authority, and we're going to be
questioned about on the piano. And the person that's gonna become,
you know, the closest person to you is the easiest person is for
you to violate and to oppress, that's just irrelevant the
situation because you give them so much. Right. So that's, I think,
you know, a takeaway with regards to focusing on the ones that are
potentially perpetrators without being suspicious of them being a
perpetrator, I can see what I mean. So I have a question. Is it
haram to cut ties with somebody who has abused your child?
No, I mean, when you want to establish, and it's known that
that's something that's happened, and you have to cut ties in a way,
because you're you're trying to, you know, is your child you go,
you're in a situation where you have to show that you're
supporting them. And that the in many ways means cutting ties to a
point, for example, you know, but again, I think in this point, it
comes back to the I think what Sister Camilla was speaking about,
looking at how you're best able to support the child in that time. At
that moment, for example, especially, you know, it's
different scenario. So, for example, the child has come and
told you as an adult, or as a teenager, that this happened at
that time, is different to for example, and it's happened at the
time, and there's going to be issues of, for example,
safeguarding and stuff like that. You get what I mean. So it again,
it's hard to give a kind of an answer, or kind of like one each
case has its, it has its own answer, basically. I wouldn't say
yes, cut ties and everyone cuts ties Don't say no, don't cut ties,
then, you know, and then it's open. It's a case by case basis.
So in this type of situation, you you'd go to, for example, some of
that
Oh, deliver respected, knowledgeable. And that, you know,
your take on that basically, you know, it's not going to be the
same for everybody. But as a general principle, and obviously
you're not going to put them in a position where they could be
harmed again, that goes without saying, yeah, sorry. I think the
reason why I said that is because we find a lot of those of us who
are like coaches who work in therapy, etc. We are familiar with
a lot of I'm going to talk about women because our clients are
women in the main, but women who maintain harmful relationships,
toxic relationships, violent and dangerous relationships, because
they're afraid that if they cut the ties along the angry with
them, and it's haram, I have no, that's correct. That's incorrect.
That's completely incorrect. So there's I mean, without a doubt,
the religion is Islam is to establish justice, and fairness
and to remove any type of harm and injustice. That's the overall
objective of all of the karma the shooting of an Islam. So as a
principle, for example, there are well, there are, there's no harm,
there's no reciprocate in a pub. So one of the things that come up
in many cases with Grace relationships, is for example, you
again, if people are using a religion to, you know, or
ahaadeeth a minute and to suit their purposes or enzymes, a
situation comes up, for example, mints in a in an abusive
relationship or a marriage, which is she's, you know, it's abusive,
she's been manipulated, he's a narcissist, or whatever, this is
actually the situation like that. Okay, does she have to say that
he's going to say no more, if you ask for the voice, he wants more
the fragrance of paradise and all the Hadith that he's going to use?
That doesn't apply in that situation? So the title of the
article divorce for Halloween, because she's in an abusive
relationship, and their principles, their removal of harm,
you know, so. So, again, I think, I think that I think somebody
mentioned, it was his acumen and knowledge, I think the importance
of educating our kids about their rights, our daughters about how
arts was ample our stands about their rights and responsibilities,
that obligations, stuff like that is really key from a young age.
And this was this you find in the early for example, the Sahaba, the
Companions, the youth of the companions were around the Prophet
Muhammad Sallallahu, wasallam, they were learning a lot of the
companions, the big ones.
With most of all youth, they were young, right? And they were
learning. So the thing is that there's this other thing, which we
have, which is societal, is because a child is a child up to
the age of, for example, 16, because they get an EIN number,
they can get a job aid and they can get married. These are
boundaries, which are, you know, genuinely quite new. There's not
based upon anything, anything apart from what society at the
time that we live in, that wasn't always the case. So if you still
remove those kind of like a you're still a child. No, let's not let's
not say you're still a child. Let's look at them in the stages
of for example, how they can understand an intellect according
to the dean so seven there for example, there you split the beds
for example, you teach them to teach them how to pray, and these
these are the boundaries those years and ages are mentioned for
hikma for wisdom. Right? So if we go back to the dinner, look at the
ages and look at the examples you're gonna find a lot of
solutions to some of these issues I preventative solutions before
they've happened. And then inshallah you know,
I think a key point is always a lot of a lot of talk a lot about
as well as well as taking the means
are co located and I know we could probably will have more
conversations on these topics Inshallah, because they are super,
super important to all of us. Mashallah, Sophia,
how can we as parents
help? What should we be doing?
I think, mashallah the brothers and sisters are really mentioned
in terms of knowledge, knowledge is really important, I think I
would add being very alert.
And like the, like the brother said, I think it's finding that
mutual, not being too paranoid, but sort of being alert at the
same time. I guess for me in terms of protecting a child, maybe being
paranoid is better, because then you're protecting a child and once
you overcome and check, and ensure that that's not so if you've got a
follow your gut instinct, sometimes Subhanallah we
underestimate that natural fitrah that Allah has given us that you
know, that something doesn't sit right there is a change in your
trial that you're not familiar with. There is something with this
person who keeps on coming to my house who's got this really, you
know, explore all that because it was the you know, the best thing
is that nothing's happened. Obviously, there is something that
needs to be explored do so. Remember, as parents that you have
taken this Amana, which is this child to protect this child, and
it's not just about, you know, you know, giving them education and
feeding them and all those things, but also protecting them and know
that when history, like we said Young people are a young now and
when they look back, they will, I guess reflect and review what took
place beyond the right side if that child gave you science and
spoke to you and asked for your help, and you didn't give it to
him because you saw other factors being more important that you saw
complex when it wasn't complex, and it takes courage for those
young kids to show you signs to communicate with you directly or
indirectly, be brave yourself. Because obviously, then you negate
your child from being traumatized from being damaged from having
relationship problems, not academically achieving, these are
all factors that, that it's not just, you know, being sexualized,
but actually, this child as a whole will not flourish to their
best ability because this overshadows them. So be on the
right side of, of history, in terms of supporting your child,
what I will say to you, as parents as well, and majority of the
parents that we work with single parents, single mothers
specifically, you are in a dire a difficult situation sometimes
where you are forced to leave your children with, with people because
I guess you have to go work because they have to pick up your
child. And so be very mindful that you balance what's more important
your child's well being and knowing now that we're talking to
you that we're saying to you that actually the people that you
trust, obviously the people that have Children's Trust, are the
ones who are more likely to abuse your child. So be mindful who you
set your children to, I will even take it to the next level and say
actually, we send our children to addresses we send a brothers come
or sisters come and teach our children at home, that we send
them to tuitions, places of, I guess, that's open to the public
that we trust as a community. Please be mindful of where you
send your children and I would urge brothers and sisters who who
run institutions of tuition or dresses or whatever, to make sure
that you follow and that you Ofsted register you register with
regulators because none of us are perfect because when you register
with for example, Ofsted when we have a nursery that's Ofsted with
child Ofsted registered, there are processes, there are trainings for
people to go on, there are systems and things that you don't think
about your heart might be in the right place that you want this
young person to teach airport in the Quran, and maybe you know
where you sit, but you need to make sure the team around your
child have those systems in place, that you need to make sure that
other kids that attend that madressa also might come from
families where they've been abused and therefore exposed to abuse. So
please, as a community, we need to also ensure that when we send our
child to somewhere that we make sure this place follows or this
institution follows the best practices that's available in the
country that we live in. And that we just don't think that we don't
need to register Ofsted or we don't need to go and charge crane,
child protection training and so on. We don't need DBS because you
know, I know this child, I know this person, they grew up in a
community that we do things properly, because we need to
protect that young child that then we'll look back in in terms of
what's happened to them. And know that either you supported them, or
you did not. So please make sure that you protect your children
will sign off that sort of DBS Will everything will protect your
child but we do as best as we can to implement everything in our
measures and in our powers that we protect our child, that sometimes
we remember that our child is more important than the work or some of
the costs that we have to in finding that balance. In terms of
a child communicating via child being alert is the key thing. I
would say the cannula and Cisco should massage it and you know, my
dresses etc? Should there be a rule that all Quran teachers,
Islamic Studies, teachers, anybody working with children should be
fully checked? Absolutely. I think as a community now that we've
heard, what the challenges and dilemmas are, that actually that
like the brothers and sisters are stated, the places that we trust,
the most that our children trust, most, are places that our children
can get damaged and harm from psychologically, physically,
sexually, emotionally. So we need to make sure that we need to be
transparent. And what does that mean having external people coming
in making sure some of the criteria they make sure that
you've had child protection training, that you have systems
and processes in place, that you've had your DBS check that you
can have on the spot checks, that's really important that
parents aren't interviewed by external members when they come
and do the checks. These are things that will make us as a
community be transparent. I'm not saying it's 100% The only way that
we can protect our kids, but 110% We have to do what we can within
our means and the systems that available schools have these
measures in place. I'm not saying it's 100% safer for children, but
unfortunately, some schools a majority of schools are safe
sometimes then I'm addresses which is a horrible thing to say. But
only because I think that sometimes we trust ourselves,
which is a handy low good, but we don't know the environment. We
don't know the people. So we need to make sure that we follow
everything to the to the letter, and I asked them addresses and
tuitions if they say no, they don't want to be registered. What
are you hiding? Transparency? Absolutely. And so I'm thinking
just for everybody who's on here listening and we're seeing a lot
of yes and agreements in the comments. And that's one thing
that you as a parent who are listening to this who is hearing
all this information, that's one thing you can do today, if your
children are going to an address if they go
going into a Saturday school anything, you can ask them? Are
you guys checked? What are the checks if they say no then insists
that they get it done. For everyone who's having any kind of,
you know, communication with your child who spends any time
unsupervised with your child, these are things that we can
demand. As parents, especially most of us are paying fees, we can
demand that and inshallah we can eventually make it a norm within
this generation, that this is the standard that we have that there
is a safeguarding in place. And I really believe very, very strongly
that enough parents have become wise do this, enough parents start
demanding this, it will change Inshallah, brother Musa, any
parting words for parents, maybe if especially with regards to
teens who are suffering right now, or any message that you have
really, for anybody who's watching this,
I think
process
in terms of how we're going to how we plan to do.
Sorry, brother, you want to get a video off? Because it's
interfering with the sound? So we can't hear you? It's it's, it's
like breaking up? Maybe?
Yeah. Okay. So it's, like I said, I think it's very important that
we
clear in
terms of how we're going to move forward and the victims and how
we're going to deal with the perpetrators, I feel like is an of
theoretical and practical is also when it comes to this in terms of
the theory of how we should deal with things, and the practicality
of how we're living, the environments that we're in, you
know, the parents that are working to the single parents, you know,
having to leave their kids here and there. And also understanding
that as a community, we can only speak from the aspects of the
Muslim community, what we can do to kind of bring this to the
forefront. And as long as I've been Muslim, for the last 13
years, I've never heard anyone on a member talk about, you know,
sexual abuse to young children, or, you know, within the
community, I've heard them talk about, you know, stealing,
backbiting, robbing every type of sin. But these are things we're
yet to hear about on I feel like the member is one of the is one of
the spaces of power of sending a message, a clear message to the
community, about the do's and don'ts of our community. And in
turn, we expect and don't expect, and find that on every
find that on every Friday, you know, we have over in 2000 3000
people attending the Friday sermon, and we're here to believe
that there is no abusers with it. So we have to understand that we
have to send clear messages, even if they just wanted to attend,
they have to know and understand that as a community that we're
we're on to them, they're prepared to, you know, to call them out,
and we're prepared to make sure that they they face the full force
of the law of the land that we're in, I feel like example, speaking
from my experience, and dealing with sisters who've told me about,
you know, being raped or abused, one of the things that I always
ask them is, Have you called the police? And and you know, and then
that and the incidences that I've had to deal with has always been
No, I didn't know the Nationals. Islamically correct for me to call
the police, or should I have caught like, you know, and I'm
thinking that what how we are in the stage where, you know,
somebody can be raped in their own home, and still feel like calling
the police is a bad idea. You know, so I feel like we just have
to be very clear, in terms of how we want to deal with the
perpetrators, the victims, and how we want to deal with the victims
in terms of the support and supporting them and letting them
know that it's not their problem. There's too many victims, that in
our community, we still have too much of a victim, blame culture,
and we keep on you know, you know, making it easy for perpetrators to
get away. And it's not that it's for everyone to speak on, or every
email, but I feel like those who do
have an understanding of that, that platform, I think is very
important that we call, you know, we call out the perpetrators we
call a spade a spade, and we speak vocally and make a difference,
right? Because these discussions are excellent. But the reality is,
these things are continuing to happen in our communities to our
sons and daughters. And I feel like it's a time that we take a
strong stance moving forward.
Totally agree. 100%. And I think, you know, my, my thinking with,
you know, discussions like these is that, you know, we've got,
we've had about 80 people on this call. There will be many hundreds
more who will watch it and you know, potentially 1000s
to watch it on YouTube, and if every person who attends a session
like this, all of you, when you're done here, tweet about it. Put
something on your Instagram Stories, take a picture of the
screen, tell people what you learned, tell people what you've
decided. Tell them what you took away from this because it is
something that can be changed family, by family, community by
community. So at this stage, I would just like to say that out of
this conversation, I feel that one of the things that we as parents
need to learn it's not a mother's thing. It's a parent's thing. How
can we avoid raising perpetrators?
That is a conversation for another day in sha Allah. So I'd like to
just take this opportunity to thank my amazing panelists Sofia,
Rosaline, Musa, Abdul Wahid, Camilla, and Sharia you guys have
been amazing have brought so much amazing content experience. You're
blowing everyone's minds I'm sure. So I just asked Allah subhanaw
taala texts to really accept your work. I accept your efforts and
allow you to be a source of hair and to be part of the change that
you want to see in this world. And may Allah bless all your families.
Those of you who are watching live please do put in the comments,
your takeaways, share this recording, let other people know
about it and make sure you sign up to join us next week. We're going
to wrap up here in sha Allah with this portion was salam aleikum wa
rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh.
That is that recording done just Zack along fader everyone at this
point, we're going to allow the panelists who need to leave to
leave because it's almost midnight and we've been at it for a while
but there are a ton of questions for whoever from the panelists
wants to stay online? To answer the