Naima B. Robert – The {VIRTUAL} Salon Muslim Marriages What is Going Wrong
AI: Summary ©
The speakers emphasize the challenges faced by Muslim men in relationships, including the lack of clarity, desire for their partner, and the need for coaching. They stress the importance of finding a partner who understands women and is safe in marriage, and emphasize the need for men to show respect and boundaries. The speakers stress the importance of showing presence and boundaries in relationships, showing respect for their partner's actions and their role as a mother, and being vulnerable in relationships.
AI: Summary ©
Bismillah salam alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh Welcome
to the Virtual salon our safe space for Muslims to speak and be
heard to explore and heal together in sha Allah, today's virtual
salon, we are shifting the pendulum from some of the more
sort of societal issues and some of the the more political issues
that we've been discussing, to take it all the way into the home.
Okay, so that my panelists today, the people that I've asked to come
and join us are people who either are working in the relationship
space, either as coaches and teachers, or are themselves
community leaders, either with a long experience of helping people
through marital issues, or currently working with couples,
and you know, newlyweds and people who want to get married, you know,
from a pastoral point of view, inshallah. So what I would like to
do is just invite every one of my panelists to just tell us who they
are and what they do. And then I'm going to start hitting you with
those discussion questions in Sharla. So let's start with you.
I'm Leila insha. Allah, okay, As Salam wa April, when it comes to
love.
And my name is Leila. And I work as a Muslim therapist, which is
actually massage for reproductive and digestive issues. But I also
do coaching, life coaching, more on the marital side of things, as
well as wellness, as well. And I've been working with with women
for, honestly, at least 20 years now. And from all aspects, so I
started out doing just general community work, and then
childbirth education, realizing that we need more than just saying
what to do in your birth, and that some of the issues were deeper. So
then went on to health coaching, because I thought maybe it's the
health and then went on to life coaching because it's realized
it's even deeper than that. And then finally, on to the marriage
coaching, but also physical healing, which is done through the
massage therapy. Because as women, we like to store a lot of issues
in the womb area that we will space and, and so often, even when
I talk to women about marriages, because I only actually deal with
women. And sometimes that's very difficult because they feel like
I'm coming from the husband side. But I always remind them that I
haven't actually spoken to your husband, I'm speaking to you. And
I'm bouncing off from what you're saying about your husband about
your relationship about you, and giving you another perspective.
And so sometimes when they come with them, just even physical
issues, and we start talking because sometimes they'll take an
hour and a half before they even get on the table
to actually discuss what's going on with them. A lot of does come
back to marriage issues or so they believe it's marriage issues, but
even goes deeper than that. So I'm always going deeper. Oh,
wonderful. I love it. Thank you so much. And this is your first time
on virtual salon right? Yeah, first time in most places. I'm
very nervous, but I'm here. We will look after you and take great
care of you in Sharla. Fantastic.
Brother abdulhak It's your first time here as well. Please just
introduce yourself to for those who don't know who you are zankel
Okay. Slowly Aleikum after lot to be in this panel. Thank Thank you
for having me. Up the hat Baker convert from South London, former
chairman and leader of the Brixton mosque community for 15 years
mashallah to rock Allah. I'm more I'd like to say many will refer to
my academic qualifications, a PhD and MBA in education and say, I'm
an academic by I want to say first and foremost, I'm a practitioner.
And grassroots at that, and then an academic martial arts broker.
I've been involved in dealing with schemes to work with the young,
the youth, as chairman, I had to preside over a growing convert
community, I think the issues that that we dealt with are peculiar
and unique to converse and continue to be, especially from an
urban background, where we're coming into a complete faith and
structure. However, leaving behind non Muslim elements of our family
and finding ourselves in an abbess as it were, whereas we're seeing
that our CO religionists who are either Arab, South Asian, and the
like or African, even, they already have generations of
infrastructure. So we find ourselves with some very serious
challenges, which I've had to preside over and try and engage
with. When dealing with these community issues for a number of
years as my younger colleague and for
In the brother of the walkinstown very glad to see him in here Masha
Allah would know very very well as part of that community. Fantastic
Wonderful to have you here and and you know hopefully is the first of
many more women in law many more times in sha Allah. Sister Aisha
atta you are another first timer in the salon. It's wonderful to
have you Masha. Allah has so much love and respect for you as I do
for everyone on the panel. Tell us a little bit about the amazing
work that you do. And as I follow her in my email, I fell on my leg
tomorrow to loca to who I feel like a bit of a fish baby fish in
this space, not just for the first time I like you, Leila. But in
this discussion, starting out I am. As women, we describe
ourselves mostly all the time you start with I'm a mom, I'm all
these things. But first and foremost, I think it's relevant to
the work that I do. I must mention I'm a Nigerian in diaspora
where I work as a Muslim, marital coach, and
pretty, you know, a trained one recently set up the practice. And
that's what I do focusing primarily on premarital coaching,
which I think is so important. I recognize that not just from my
own personal experience, being married 20 years and still trying
to figure out how to build, go back and rebuild that foundation,
you take it apart and you're constantly redoing it. And
recognizing that massive gap within our Ummah, we really don't
focus on teaching and preparing for this important, important
relationship. But we do a lot of teaching, among other things, we
do a lot of teaching of the team, we do a lot of teaching of how to
go out and be successful how to compete. We don't get this one
quite right. So it's such a privilege to be able to be doing
that work. And I reference myself as a Nigerian doing it. Because
one of the things that I it's really quite exciting to do to be
on the seat of observing and watching couples figuring these
things out a lot of cultural context comes to play in
relationships. And perhaps that will come into what we're
discussing today. I see a lot of that in play. When you look at the
problems and you look at the way people deal with each other the
dynamics. So yeah, really pleased to be here and I'm looking forward
to learning a lot myself and sha Allah. So Allah Vida la CK
hamdulillah and then we have brother Abdullah ahead. Stevenson,
who is a veteran of the virtual salah, masha Allah was one of the
inaugural participants and has been here many times, I'm sure you
guys all know him. For those who don't know, you who maybe missed
the three previous sessions, give us a snapshot of what you do
yourself. Oh, I'm the warhead convert, I'd say a product of
boost msgid and Abdullah Baker, what I mean by that is,
is my mentor. When I first became a Muslim, that was a community I
was in knowledge base community, a lot of support from the very
beginning. Even in my years as a student in Islamic University of
Medina where I graduated in 2008, back in the UK, the Imam of the
masjid and most recently doing a Sharia Council in South London
where we do similar to the sister pre marriage workshops. And before
you get married, getting ready for marriage, eight sessions with a
couple as well as mediation as well as dispute resolution, and,
you know, come to it divorces, marriages, before divorces, by
divorces, if it comes to everything around basically
building strong, resilient relationships between the couples,
so prevent preventative factors are stocked with what is
happening, where it's possible, obviously. So that's pretty much
what I do with 100 in law. Okay, so guys, as you can see, we've got
some, some really what I love about this space is that we all
coming to the same topic, but from you know, different angles. And I
know that we're all going to bring, you know, something really
unique to the table. So let's kick off the conversation. And I want
to open this confidence question up to everybody who is watching
this. What would you say in your opinion, are the two biggest
challenges facing Muslim marriages today, when I introduced this,
this, this particular session, I talked about the general social
environment that we find ourselves in, okay, as Muslims, the way that
the culture is changing the way society is changing, the way
people are changing, okay, in terms of what they want out of
life and what they're prepared to be patient with and what they're
prepared to accept. And then of course, you have the usual sort of
personality clashes and family issues and economic situation, and
maybe even exacerbated by COVID-19. And you know, lockdown
and the uncertainty that we're in now, from what you've seen, what
would you say are the two biggest challenges facing Muslim marriages
today? Anybody jump in with whatever you feel? Uh, guys,
please don't wait. There's no like, Okay, I'm gonna give you a
turn.
I'm gonna give you a turn, I'm gonna give you a turn Bismillah
just jump in and feel free also to talk to each other. I'm just here
as a host. I'm not here to moderate you, because at the end
of the day, mashallah, you're the experts. So, all of you who are
watching, tell us in the chat what you think, and whoever wants to
take it first out of the ladies and gentlemen, please, Inshallah,
go ahead.
I don't mind jumping in if that's okay. And this will lay like your
saw you. First Lady. First, I just want to just piggyback on what
Aisha was saying about the preparation, in terms of we don't
put enough into the preparation.
I think
it's a great shame, because obviously, we have like the
Wiley's set up. And I don't know if it's a breakdown in the
community as well, while we don't know enough about each other in
our communities, that when we are vetting for spouses, that there
seems to be a lack in really doing some research and preparation for
the couples. And so, you know, we have a system, but I don't know if
it's been used as well as it should be, you know, and
obviously, even in terms of the couple's having those those
sessions, which is I'm glad to hear as to what it is doing these
pre marital sessions, but also just individual sessions, with
like, expectations of marriage, you know, knowing yourself before
you go into the marriage, people having these thoughts of coming
into marriage, and, you know, they're gonna complete half of my
Deen. And by that they mean, they're going to complete me,
which, you know, is not what I would say marriage is about, you
have to come in there with knowing who you are. So that that person,
you can translate that over to your spouse, so that they can get
to know who you are because you have clarity in yourself. So even
having just coaching on your own, to have a bit more clarity about
who you are going into a marriage, I think, is something that we
should be doing as a community and obviously the community knowing
who you are as well, because that helps with families getting to
know about potential spouses for their children.
I second, I think what I'm Leyla said, and what's been put in the
chat already, I agree entirely with that. And I think there are
two angles that we should consider. There's the socio
religious and socio cultural expectations. And when I say socio
religious, one thing that happened, and I think continues to
happen is that we are given references to the deen, Quran,
Hadith, and they are given to us prescriptively. And we administer
them prescriptively. So we go into the marriage. And there are the
set of codes and rules that we are throwing across our wives, and
they're fine across us. There's no spirit or understanding regarding
application of those. And so instead of growing together, there
are the set of codes that we are all trying to live up to and
adhere to. And unfortunately, what then happens is that we then start
bringing in us to uncle to speak from the men's perspective, and we
need to understand this and it took us some time to understand
it, that while we're thinking that we're adhering to Hadith
concerning the rights of the husband, or the wife and vice
versa, elements of misogyny are creeping in, in the way that we're
using and referencing these particular generations. But
because we haven't had that coaching, as a will moose moose,
as highlighted, as you've highlighted, and Leila, we are
thinking that we are getting it correct. And our understanding,
and I speak about this in my PhD studies, and in a lot of the
lectures that I've given, our understanding is very rudimentary
and abstract. It's abstract, because we are applying it without
a context. Now, when you travel to the Muslim lands, and you travel,
and you you reside amongst the Muslims, and you see how the whole
infrastructure is around the couple that are meeting their
understanding their application. That's an actualized
understanding, they have a context. We don't have that in the
West, and it's not fostered, especially in convert communities,
I think in the other communities is becoming that way because
there's a detachment between the parents and the younger
generations. But we need to move from that abstract understanding
and application of the religion because that's what's damaging us
from the very start. I'm reading Quran as we go and stick with a
coach and we refer to verses of the Quran and Allah says this and
the Prophet sallallahu sallam said, the man should be like this,
the expectations of the women are that, but we've also got to look
at when we're placing those expectations on each other. What
is the societal context at the time of us placing those
expectations? And I'll end on this point, I remember speaking to one
of the students of knowledge that
I known and close to an American individual, and I remember in the
early days in the 90s, after Whitehead would know this and
said, Oh, the woman must win.
I mean, in, in our home, but go out only in the cases of
necessity. And I that didn't sit comfortably with me. And I asked
the student of knowledge, I said, what if the sisters need has a
need for social interaction with colleagues and sisters and going
out and everything? And that's a mental health issue isn't that
necessity? And he looked at me and he said, You're absolutely right,
I said, then we need to expand that necessity can't be I need to
go to the shops and buy nappies and milk and everything like that.
There's there are mental, social intangible needs, that we need to
say, Hold on the context of understanding that narration is in
that time. And we need to apply it to a wider context for us in the
21st century.
May I don't pin their brother up, don't hug really well said, and
that's so deep, you've covered like such a broad, broad, broad
perspective of a lot of these things. I'm going to make it sort
of like just from the perspective of just as a woman, as a mother,
as a sister, as a daughter. That disconnect that you rightly point
out begins very much. In many ways, I guess it's sort of like
that hamster wheel, you don't even know where it started from in our
homes. When we parent, our kids, when we are passing on traditions,
and we're passing on beliefs, I think there's a, there's an
approach that there isn't conscious parenting, when it comes
to teaching your children about relationships, you expect them to
understand, and just to learn, in some almost like with osmosis. And
when you do that, the danger is, when we come into these
relationships, we don't even know the baggage that we're coming
with. So I speak to so many couples, who when the
conversations really start, you recognize immediately that
actually, I may have said to you that I don't want to repeat what
my father did, or my mother did. That's exactly what I'm doing. And
I don't have an awareness of that in this relationship. I said to
you that I accept you as you are. But actually, I want you to be
exactly like my dad, I want you to be you know, to exemplify what I
saw in my home, and we are not having that conversation, whether
it's at the beginning or even with ourselves from the start to even
know what's a good healthy relationship other than the Quran
verses and the Hadith, as you said, where is it applicable? Can
I look at couples? Can I bring up examples of how a couple This is
the what is role modeled, and what I would like my relationship to
be? We, we have the blueprint in the resource of Al Salam, how he
lived, how he conducted himself. And I think part of where it's
missing is, we don't pull that up in our day to day lives ourselves,
to show our children and then when they become adults to be able to
look at, there's a failure there. But we caught the verses, we will
quote the verses, if at all we do any preparation, it generally will
be your job is to feed her clothe her shelter, and kinda like the
man is almost done. That's his job. You're the authority. You
have you taken care of the home front. There's a lot of work to be
done, I think in consciously looking at what kind of
relationship do you even want to have? What kind of relationship do
you do you want to have that is pleasing to Allah, that's the
beginning of the foundation. And I think a lot in between there is
where the work needs to be done in our communities, which by the way,
we must say it out loud, is not a community that is good at having
open conversations. Yeah, open conversations about difficult
topics, whatever they may be, even in your own home. So you look at
your parents, and you're wondering, do they, you know, do
they is what I see on TV, which we need to remember our children take
example, however much we may hold up for her does the Syrah to them,
they're looking at the environment. And that's what
they're absorbing the examples there. And you have to counter
that actively as much as possible by being able to see, okay, this
may be what's out there. But we have better we have even better in
the resource analysis. Or it's not, you know, it's not hunky dory
all the time. But here's how we work it out. Here's how we are
resilient. Here's how we get back on top. You know, you know that
time where sort of this was happening in the home when I was
away for so and so we were going through a really bad patch with
your dad or with your mom and everything. But we got through it
because that's real marriage. A lot of that is missing in our
communities. And I think we need to find a way to bridge that to
along with the preparation.
Without the warhead, what are your thoughts? Two biggest challenges?
marriages?
I think the one of the biggest problems I think everyone's kind
of touched on it a little bit is this need to kind of focus on the
other person
In a relationship, so for example, if it's a case of the wife posts
about her Husband Husband focusing on his wife, and one of the
things, which is known is that the person's reflection of you. So if
you focus on yourself, and improve yourself, how you speak to your
partner, and how you're implementing, for example, your,
your kind of responsibilities, and you're alone, you won't have to
worry too much about the other person, because they're going to
reflect to you and vice versa. Likewise, with regards to
parenting, as well. So I think it's a case of, you know, still
focusing on improving yourself. And Inshallah, you know, if if
there's compatibility, you know, you're gonna find success in the
marriage anyway, without having to kind of, you know, look at the
other person and hone in on their, you know, responsibilities and
stuff like this, you know, and if there's not compatibility, then,
you know, divorce is always an option, do I mean, so meaning that
there's really isn't compatibility one person, you know, isn't
suitable, there was a mistake made, but hopefully, the purpose
of pre marriage workshops or is to kind of bridge that gap and try to
remove that, you know, or lessen the risk of that happen in this,
let's say, it won't happen. It can happen after 20 years, or
whatever. But you lessen the risk of that happening. And I think
there was a very important point that this sister, as I mentioned,
that it's automatically assumed that, you know, you know, the
couple know, how, what a marriage is supposed to look like, this
year, I mean, but in reality, is not always that's not the case,
you know, especially when it's in our in our situation. Whereas if
it's about a number of meetings, you might not know the person
apart from the meeting you've had with them, or the two meetings, or
the three meetings, they might not know the family, you know, they
might not have a Muslim family in the first place. So you might pick
this up, you don't need to know the non Muslim family, which is
another mistake people make.
The mistake Shall I know, I'm going to actually come, we're
going to talk about the mistakes that people are making right here
because I know mashallah, you have some very strong views on this
issue. Mashallah. But you mentioned the word compatibility,
right. And I find this so fascinating, because there's a
book of Gary Chapman, who wrote The Five Love Languages, he has a
book called things I wish I'd known before we married. And in
that book, he talks about how a lot of people know maybe not so
much Muslims. But in general, people think if I like this
person, and they seem to tick off certain things off my list, I
should marry them. Yeah, we're in the sort of non Muslim space, it's
my I love this person. I'm in love with this person, therefore, we
must get married because she loves me and I love her and we're going
to be fine. It's gonna be great. And what he says is that the issue
is that when people take that path, they do not look at whether
they are truly compatible.
Are you on the same wavelength spiritually, intellectually, you
know, in terms of your values, in terms of your principles, in terms
of what you want out of life. And as this Aisha said, what you want
out of a relationship now, back in our day, I never heard the word
compatibility mentioned ever. Because it was does he have good
Dean? Does she have good Dean? Do you like the look of each other?
Okay, hello, let's go ahead. Bismillah. So what do you guys
have to say about compatibility? Do you think that that is
something that we are now learning? Is something necessary
for a successful marriage? Do you even believe that compatibility is
necessary? What What are your thoughts on that?
That's a very good question. I found that, as you said, sis,
Nyima compatibility wasn't something that was discussed in
our time, I think coming from the backgrounds that we came from a
chemistry was looked for, and then the Dean was placed there as well.
And that overtook whatever the chemistry was in that particular
instance, I and compatibility was only used at the tail end when
divorces are taking place to say we're incompatible. We need a term
incompatibility, but not the term compatibility. And I think it's
very serious thing to look at from this perspective, when we're
talking about compatibility. Are we talking about culturally? Are
we talking about religiously? Because what you'll find is that
those cultural aspects only come out when the problems arise and
towards the end, and I'm going to speak as a black convert now, if I
may. And you'll find that if you're in cultural marriages, and
I've seen this from colleagues if you're in a cultural marriage, and
there's problems if the individual is self Asian, African, I'm half
Nigerian half guy nice. I've have cross cultural roots like like
yourself sister Naima, like of the white head. I'm not sure about our
other two sisters. But then what happens is that they can tap into
predominant culture from where that your partner comes from. They
can tap into that, even if they didn't agree with you married in
the first place. So
If it's a South Asian, she can go back and show that she's having
problems. And suddenly that black partner is well we knew about we
told you about black people from the start, and societal prejudices
kick in, and racial connotation start kicking in. If it's a white
sister, you'd be married to our white brother, and there happens
to be a black sister. And they go back into their privileged
environment, whatever that may look like. The one who suffers or
is looked on with a negative connotation happens to be the
black convert, or the black individual. And so when we're
talking about compatibility, are we talking about culturally here,
there are other aspects of personality and the like, I do
understand that. And I do get that. But I think that we need to
be very, very careful. When we traverse this road of
compatibility. Deen is important. But as we've said, It can't just
be Dean prescriptively, it cannot be it will not work. In that
particular way, we do have to look at cultural elements, we do need
to look at social elements. And the last point I would make on
this, and it's taken many of us a long time to learn this lesson.
Brothers will marry and they will look at we have to provide for the
woman and expect a weakness in the physiological, psychological
makeup of the woman. So they're going to we're going to be that
knight in shining armor. And I say, Whoa, slammed the brakes on
because many of the women that we know and sisters that we know, are
not from that damsel in distress, elk, and what needs to happen,
like we would do before we were married, okay, or before we became
Muslim, is you've got to look at someone who's on the same or
similar level to you. Because as a husband, you want to be able to
show vulnerability and trust a woman that you're showing that
vulnerability to know when she can absorb it, knowing that she can
use that strength and ability she's got to counsel you, you
should not be the one to expect that she is the one to be the
weaker and the fairer * and the I'm the doer, the provider the
emotional support, and she's just got to be at home, nurturing the
children and being at home? Nope. If brothers are listening to this,
you need to change that paradigm now, because that's a paradigm
that is twisted within today's context. Some might say no, that's
what the Dean says, again, I will challenge you and say, yeah, when
you look at ie Shivaji law, and when you look at the Sahaba, you
when you look at what they were doing with their husbands, for
their husbands, societally. And I asked myself and I asked
colleagues, since I've lived abroad, why didn't we hear those
stories? Why were those stories of the women and their empowerment
and their strength? And the influence? Why was that moved out
of the narrative that we were listening to, which only fueled
patriarchy, and misogyny? And we thought that was Dean.
Hold on a second, wait a minute. So these are just like, Okay.
So are you saying that it's not the man's job to be the strong one
and the woman to be the weak one, and we're not supposed to play out
this, this relationship in this way? You You lead, I follow? You
take charge I, you know, I kind of take care of whatever, like, I
want people saying 100% in the chat people agreeing with this.
But I want to hear from anybody who's listening. Does this make
you feel uncomfortable? Because for sure, I know many of us would
have would have heard this. Maybe not using words like patriarchy
and misogyny, but certainly the idea that the man is, you know, in
charge, and he is pretty much you know, kind of untouchable in a
way. But ladies, talk to me like what's coming up for you, sister,
Aisha Anela.
I'm thinking so many thoughts around what Brother? Huck just
said around compatibility and compatibility. But to attend to
what you said this last statement. I personally think I think one of
the things that I'm finding and learning and very curious about I
don't have a particular, I can't say this, there's data that I have
to it. There's no one size fits all anymore. Not in Muslim
marriages. It's it's no longer working to say, you know, this
used to be or this is how it's meant to be in terms of who's
doing what and how. So it brings it back to the compatibility
thing. I happen to know a lot of women who are the breadwinners,
accident accidentally, unintentionally, unwillingly, or
willingly. There's so many different dimensions to it, that
just happens to be the reality now. So when you look at that, and
then you look at a man who is strong enough to be vulnerable,
like you're such a trust that I can be vulnerable and that doesn't
make me weak, and be able to look at our circumstance and our
contextual space where we are and see what works for us. Most
important
Me, can it work for us? And please Allah?
People couples are doing that there are Muslim couples who are
trying to do that. Now, do we look at that then and say, you don't
fit the narrative, like you just said, you know, this paradigm
doesn't fit the Muslim marriage and there's a problem or if
they're compatible or seemingly happy and fulfilled, and and
there's nothing you can look at in that relationship to say this is
displeasing to Allah, what do we do with that relationship? I
personally am looking at it and thinking, I think there is a
conversation to be had around that. I am 100%, clear on the men
aka one, it's in the Quran.
The issue around a one as a role, I think, is understanding what
that means. A lot of men take that to mean I am. There's a scene in
in a particular part of Nigeria to translate it after Allah after
your Lord, the results Allah Salam than me, that's a standard
statement, a lot of women live with the man your husband saying
to you, after your God, your prophet, then me, basically obey
me. And that is it. And we're done. We're okay, we're happy,
zero understanding of Kawan if that is how you approach a
marriage, but most men don't understand that, that meaning
broken down and a lot of women as well. So for me, when I learned
it, I completely agree, but there has to be leadership. And there
has to be, you know, that that direction coming from somebody in
that dynamic, but leadership, there's no leadership that
surpasses that of the resource allows. And he exemplified being
very happy to be led, if you like, by a child, much less, you know,
anybody, anybody that had value he would listen to, he was still the
leader that was never challenged. So when you when I hear about
compatibility, I'm thinking, Are we even? Are we even aware of
differences can be strengths? Are we having those conversations that
we can be absolutely different income, seemingly incompatible,
and still be a powerful, powerful team, and may be where that
happens, where that problem begins, brought up to you you
highlighted is when the problems start, then we go into our
corners, and we take positions, and then we focus very much on
what was wrong to be, you know, what makes us different, which,
when we came together, we were very happy. That was exciting. You
know, it was exciting that you, you came from a different cultural
background, you were a river, or whatever it was that made you
different, it just made us really great. And then when the problems
start, we move into our little spaces and say, Okay, this now is
a problem. When we can't deal with this. It's more of an
unwillingness to compromise and unwillingness to learn and
unlearn. Which is very necessary, I think, for a healthy
relationship. So that's kind of just my thoughts. It's not coming
from a space, as I said, there's no data, but it's kind of what I
see sitting in the seat that I see.
Leila, what are your thoughts on the compatibility? Yeah, I wish I
was taking notes. But if I take notes or heart, listen,
everything will be available. Yeah, it's brilliant. And
literally, I love that point about sometimes you don't know about the
compatibility until the mistakes or not mistakes or the problems
that arise. And that's when it's kind of like it highlights, okay,
maybe we're not that compatible. But like he said, that could be
the point of growth for that individual. Because it's like,
again, there's, there's that point in the relationship where there's
acceptance of, of that person and where they're coming from. So
there might be yes, cultural differences. But that's to
recognize that that's your culture, and this is my culture,
it's not necessarily an issue unless you make it an issue. And
for you to understand that this is where I'm coming from, I can't do
that. I can do that. And vice versa with the other person. So
yes, you might think you're compatible at the beginning. You
may even not think you're compatible at the beginning, but I
personally see as a point of growth for a person if they're
willing to actually be opened up to another person's world because
some we take sometimes common sense for granted that what I see
in my world you know, you should know that you know, you should
know that if I'm crying as a woman that means I'm upset if I'm doing
this then it means this but that's your world and what how it's been
shaped whether it is by your uncle's your your brothers, what
you've seen on the media, again, and vice versa for the men and
what they see from them, their mothers, their aunties, and you're
bringing that to the table to a person who has no clue about that
world whatsoever. No. And again, also my favorite said if
If it works for you stop trying to fit in everybody else's box is the
woman being strong in the relationship, and the man has a
place for vulnerability, he may have never had that. So this is a
great space for him to be in to have a different kind of growth.
But not you know, actually come on, you can't let your wife do
this or do that. It's it's, it's, again, back to individuality of
knowing who you are, and what do you want out of this relationship?
What are you looking for in the marriage? What do you need to
thrive in the marriage is taking those kinds of things as well. So
I love that and, you know, just bouncing off on on what, what's
been mentioned, I think one of the things that, you know, is
interesting, because it seems to be missing almost from the
discourse. And that is, you know, the, what a few of you mentioned
about the other elements of a marital relationship that are not
to do with with rights and responsibilities, but are more to
do with the emotional side and the, you know, the intellectual
side, but mainly the emotional and mental side. And, you know,
somebody mentioned in the comments that there needs to be there needs
to be more sermons about the relationship dynamics between the
Prophet sallallahu Sallam and his wives, and actually breaking down
what was really going on there, because these were human beings,
operating in a context. And I feel like, you know, some of us as some
of some of you mentioned, you know, when the, when the
discussion is about sort of my rights and my responsibilities,
and I'm supposed to do this, and I'm supposed to do that. I feel
like the conversation within the Muslim community is, it's almost
like it's at basic level. So you know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs,
right? The bottom level of needs is basic necessities is food,
water, shelter, okay. And kind of safety. Right? I think that's, I
think safety is at the bottom. And then the higher up, you go in the
hierarchy, the more kind of,
I don't know, fancy the needs become. It's now emotional
fulfillment, you know, feeling like you belong, a sense of
belonging, a sense of accomplishment, self
actualization. And I feel like our conversations within the Muslim
community seems stuck at that bottom level. He feeds you, he
closed you, she takes care of the kids. And it's like, okay, but is
there not space for us to now elevate to a place where it's
actually we're talking real relationship stuff here. We're
talking about sincerity, we're talking about character, you know,
we're talking about, you know, how it is that we are actually living
with our wives on an emotional level psychologically, what do you
guys think about that? Do you think that I'm going off on a
tangent there? Or do you think that there's something there? And
I asked him to I had a question on what you've just said there. And I
think that's very important. I think of the wide from the lessons
that you're doing in the counseling, would you agree when I
mentioned vulnerability, I think we have, we've got to realize that
that there's a strength in that in being able to share that and
display that with your, your wife, and I'm thinking of none other
than the Prophet salallahu Salam, saying how he, he went to his
wives, when he felt the Sahaba were not understanding him, like
we know the Treaty of who they are when Dubya when they went to Hajj,
and they couldn't perform the hajj. And the upset of some of the
contingent of the Sahaba was such that they wouldn't shave their
heads or anything. And he went into the tent and his wife said,
You are the messenger of Allah says, go out and shave your head,
they will follow you. And he went to her for counsel, he was feeling
vulnerable, he was feeling unsure of is the messenger of Allah Azza
wa salam, but he was feeling unsure because of the upset of his
companions, the amount of times we see with Aisha when she saw him in
a distressed state, Khadija radiAllahu anha, when he first had
the revelation come to him, these this was not the behavior of a
weak man. So when we use the term vulnerability, us as men,
we have this persona that I cannot show weakness, one, we cannot show
it outside of the home, we see the hadith of Zara, and the different
characteristics of the men there. But when we come in the home, if
we don't show that vulnerability, and we don't show how we're
feeling, what actually happens is we end up taking it out on our
partner, and she doesn't look why. And we then used the Dean as a
barrier, and a battering ram to try and shield that vulnerability
and what we're going through. And she's thinking he's been too too
rigid with me. So otherwise, I don't want to push this back to
you. Does any of what I'm saying resonate with you in the
counseling in the workshops that you do.
100% I mean, I think, I think I don't know what people are often
surprised the buyer when they come to a mediation session with me is
they could just get an A, like you said, a prescriptive answer. The
Dean says that, that's your that's your heart and they get the
company
The opposite, basically, you know, in many cases are quite shocked.
Because it's, you know, there's a lot of exploring the vulnerability
of the man in his position and the strength of the woman and vice
versa as well, to be honest with you. But I think one of the things
is that there's a lot of misunderstanding with regards to
the application of the deen as it pertains to relationships. So if
we look at, if you've got a badass, this is worship, right?
This is, you know, this Tolki fee, and there's no, there's no
negotiation in worship. You pay my father, they swatch him, but he
might not do it. But that's a deficiency your Eman. Now when it
comes to relationships between the husband and a wife or between
business partners or between brothers. It's different. There's
guidelines, there's principles, and there's kind of like Maxim's
this answer, but there's room for negotiation, always when it comes
to relationships. And it's not that that, you know, what are
these guidelines? You know, like some of these, one of the sisters
mentioned that I should with regards to being the breadwinner,
okay, the man works, okay. Does that mean that the woman doesn't
work or can't work? It doesn't mean that. Okay, does that mean
that okay, demand got he spent? Does that mean that women can't
spend on her husband can't buy him stuff, it doesn't mean that you
understand. So the point is, when it comes to relationships is not
the same as a bad bad that is one thing. Now this is when someone
says they can't fix it? Oh, not why don't we get married? And I'm
gonna say I'm gonna have to be the law.
What do you mean cease to be?
Okay, because
you missing here to say that again, please say that, again, for
the people in the back.
The point is, marriage is a relationship, you know, so you
have your own necks involved in it. She has her naps involved in
it. So don't get me wrong, you're doing you're getting married,
because you know, you, you want to safeguard and preserve, Your
Honor. But you're not doing that. If you say it's feasibly the law,
you're already the premise is completely wrong, in the sense
that you're doing it because there's a benefit that you're
going to bring, and you're going to expect that there's a mutual
Canada's relationship that you know that, like you're going into
business,
business, mutually beneficial 100%, if not, and when I say that,
it's a partnership, I've said this so many times, it's a partnership
where each person has got an equal share in it. What I mean by that
is that the objective between the majors to go to Paradise, it
within this relationship, so there's a there's a benefit in the
afterlife as a benefit in the modern life. And the point I'm
getting, if you look, for example,
at like, you know, there's a partnership, if you're in business
with somebody, okay, you're doing business with a person, their
partner, okay? What's the benefit, you're gonna make sure that
you're, what you're buying and selling is, is permissible to buy
and sell within about within, you know, within the boundaries of the
village, do not like to, for example, buy and sell pork or
alcohol, for example, because you know, that your income is going to
be devoid of blessing, there's only a few things that are not
allowed to buy or sell, most of the things are open, if it's
permissible to buy and so this is to say otherwise, right? Okay, so
your work in a band is of a list long within the boundaries of the
Sharia. But at the same time, there's your, there's a lot of
scope for what you can do in quite different negotiation for the
relationship to be fruitful, basically. And so you what you're
working on is to make a fruitful relationship for both partners,
which is profit, if it's a business, and if it's a marriage,
it's happiness, this is a point. Because a marriage, the fruit of a
marriage is a happy relationship, you know, honestly, doesn't mean
there's no, it doesn't mean that there's not going to be difficult
moments. That's not saying that there's not going to be difficult
moments, but the premise is the premise of contentment and
happiness, otherwise, the relationship is gonna go south,
you know, if it's always one person is happy at the expense of
the other person, for example, you know, likewise, in a business
contract, if one person is profiting while I was losing all
the time, that business contract not gonna last long, both people
have to, in a business contract. Yeah. Can I add to that system?
I'm very British, for I think the input from Asia on Leyland and
otherwise have been amazing. I just want to say very briefly,
when we look at the verse, that we are garments for each other, that
is it. Okay? Yeah. When you look at that, let's just think what
does a garment do?
Okay. And if we're garments for each other, we're not only
protecting, beautifying, keeping secure on the rim, okay, you're
doing that for each other. And it's not that one of us a garment,
and you're always cloaking the other one, you are garment for
each other. And we've got to look at these words and really ponder
over them. Okay, we only ponder over these words. When it's nice,
like, Oh, we're in love and it's all nice and everything and then
we're bring these particular verses, and I'll stop on just that
point, that garment for each other. That epitomizes from Allah
subhanaw taala. Those who say there's no romance in Islam. I
don't know where they're looking to be honest with you. When you
look at this now go on
with each other, that a piece of Mises, a love that can is
unmatched with anything that the Western world the non Muslim world
can bring. And we've actually seen examples of that in our Prophet
sallallahu sallam. We've seen examples of that in the companions
that Omar Omar's forbearance with his wife really browbeat him on
occasion and in showing patience with Ali regular who and we've
been jealous of the swap that his wife was using the see work, so it
won't care if as wife is using so I can imagine having that jealousy
over a co worker, an instrument that's being used for cleanliness.
We need to understand what love means in its comprehensive term,
because I've heard couples and otherwise you may have heard this
when I say, counsel, not to the degree you were doing it as the
chairman of Brixton mosque, I'll sit in with couples. And I'd say,
right, let's talk about love. Do you love each other? And he would
say I love her feasibly Leila, and like, okay, yeah, we put that to
the side. Do you love your wife? Do you love your I love him?
feasable Allah said, Well, do you know what? So that's the same as
you loving me. And the husband will get up a DSLR. Now we're
talking because we love the Muslim feasibility law we are talking
about I think there's two there are two types of love and wide. As
you know, there's the love the universal love. And there's that
one that is put between us from from Allah subhanaw taala. And men
are afraid to talk about love.
In that sense for their wives, they are afraid to talk about it
because again, they think it opens a vulnerability that shows a
weakness and they're afraid to show their wives that extent of
their love. It goes back to system naming what you said, I'm paying
for this I'm keeping the bills on keep no that's not love. That's a
duty
nightmare. Come in here, brother. And brother Abdulwahab. So you're
speaking and you're speaking, powerful truth and my mind is
racing and I'm thinking these are knowledgeable brothers
knowledgeable brothers who understand this Deen are applying
it. Do you think that part of the challenge and we really, really
should probably open this up to the audience. Part of the
challenge facing the Muslim ummah and marriages is that this is what
I see. Correct me if I'm wrong, that the men are not seeking film
as fast or as much as the women. The women seem to be way ahead in
this understanding, I would hazard that the majority I mean, they
know the stories, they know the romance that is in Islam, they
understand what a garment is in, in a marriage. they yearn for it.
That is what some of a lot of women come into marriage even for
not just the face of England. But for the men. This is News. This is
News. Newsflash, what are you talking about? Were you talking
about? Didn't hear it? I don't know it. I'm missing that context.
Do you think that is part of the problem?
Do I hide it?
I think when it comes to obviously a relationship, you know, between
the husband and the wife, then there's, you know, there's so many
causal, causal factors. I do think one of them could be, for example,
the immaturity of the man at that time in the relationship in the
time that he's getting
the maturity of the woman, like I mentioned him, or her level of
knowledge, his level of knowledge. But generally speaking, is you
know, in most cases, not in every case, but in a lot of cases that
I've come across. Now, I don't want to I don't want to say I'm
bashing men, because I know that there are a lot of terrible wives
out there as well, I'm going to put that up them. Now. There's a
lot of terrible wives out there. And I think it's, in my
experience, it's an equal number. With regards to you know, when I'm
doing mediation and stuff like that, I've seen some really, you
know, really, and this, you know, sometimes these wives are the ones
that are more religious, sadly, sadly, the other ones that are
more religious, and they're the ones that are acting more ignorant
than their less religious husbands in their words, basically, I call
going back to your question, because too, you know,
you know, men not being as mature Islamically knowledgeably, I think
it's, it might just be could be put down to the fact of, you know,
how this how they express themselves, I think, like, Baker
speaking about, they don't, they might not be, you know, in tune
with expressing themselves in a way. And it's not by it's not
necessarily by lack of want. Sometimes, it's just lack on
maybe, you know, could come back to haunt our society what the
community says over there. Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah, man. There's so many
different things. But I think I think the point of it
Getting married is to kind of one of the benefits of the marriage is
going to be to kind of change that. Hopefully, you know, that's
the positive impact that the wife can have on her husband. Now,
there's a lot of exchange going on. When there's a marriage and
beneficial exchanges, there's a point it has to be golf. I
completely agree.
So sorry, the reason I the reason I was just wondering about the
reality, I was just kind of making the connection, trying to think
about what the reality is, and what theoretically we are
comparing it. It's that just makes me wonder that is there something
to look at there and beginning with myself, by the way, as I say
that, because I'm the mother of a young boy, or young male as well.
And you look at that, and you wonder, how are we, you know,
conditioning them? How are we raising them? How are we teaching
them? What are we exemplifying? And is there role modeling to be
done to bridge that that actually, there is such a huge
responsibility on you to gain and seek him and make sure that you
are certainly able to lead your family in that regard in
understanding that's just something that I was just, I'm
curious, I just want to jump in here because I feel like there's,
there's, we're at cross purposes, I feel. Because when it comes to
seeking knowledge, a lot of people know a lot. Okay, a lot of people
know, their rights, their responsibilities. And as the
brother was saying, sometimes it's the more religious people who
actually behave the worst within the marriage. And I think I
couldn't be wrong here. But I feel like there is a focus on the
theoretical aspects of the dean and the FIP.
Which which completely it's as if there's no emotional intelligence
at play. So you can have somebody who's done all in course, all Emma
course has been to Medina University and all sorts of things
but can't communicate, doesn't have any, any emotional
intelligence doesn't know how to kind of gauge his wife's mood and
these types of things. And I really think, you know, like
Abdullah had said,
a lot I think with with our men, and I say, our men, because they
are our men, and and especially as women, you know, again, again,
let's talk about the genders being garments for each other, because
this is something that I've noticed within the Muslim
community is that there is this sense of brothers versus sisters,
the brothers talk to each other about the sisters, sisters talk to
each other about the brothers. But really, we should be covering each
other and wanting the best for each other. Because at the end of
the day, we're all going to be parents of inshallah boys and
girls. So as a mother, I can't hold animosity in my heart towards
Muslim men or brothers, because I'm raising one. And maybe I'm
married to one, you know, so. So I think that, let's say, let's maybe
see that as a community, we are failing our boys, and we are
failing our young men, because we are not allowing them to explore
themselves emotionally, express themselves emotionally, and feel
safe enough to communicate, we're not teaching them how to be
partners. We're not teaching them how to be husbands, we're telling
them, this is the heart, this is the this is the right of your
wife, you have to do this, you have to do that. You have to do
that. And they couldn't know that all day long. But even if they do
that, if they don't have emotional maturity themselves, right? If
they themselves don't understand, like, Why do I feel this way? What
what's coming up for me? How can I communicate this? Is it okay, is
it safe? The things that potentially a father could role
model, or uncle's could role model or mothers could discuss with
their sons, if we were going to be open about things like you said,
society, maybe we could help our sons to become hold and be able to
to?
Yeah, and just to be able to do with this relationship a bit
better this relationship thing, because I don't think it's a lack
of Elm. As in Islamic knowledge, I don't think it's about Islamic
knowledge. There's other knowledge that is missing. And I think
emotional. Emotional Intelligence is a big one. I could be wrong,
guys. But what do you think about that says, No, that's exactly what
I was going to address. Joseph laugher, you've raised motional
intelligence is something and this is on both sides, because what
you'll find is that
as otherwise we're not bashing the brothers, but you'll find that
there's an expectation that you've got to be this good brother. And
some brothers would understand what I'm saying is you're in a
particular peer group or your particular entity, and you come to
the brothers and sisters are looking for a husband. So what's
the brother like? He's a good brother, he tends to classes he
does.
So the brother then says, right, I've made that but there's nothing
around. He's emotional intelligence. There's nothing
about
those emotional and behavioral traits that you can determine. So
I'll give you an example. Those of us who've got grown children,
those there are those who've gone looking for husbands or daughters
wives for their their partners, and they've seen all
Have that they've seen all of that on the surface? Yeah. Good. Dean,
five salah, go into the classes. They've spoken to the parents
about these things. And the premise of yet tick, tick, tick,
tick. Yes, yes. What's happened when those couples have come
together. And shortly after you've realized, Oh, hold on, there's
some serious problems here. But we saw he praised his parents and
this has been an hour the minute he doesn't respect his mother, he
looks down and treats his sisters very harshly. Or if it's done the
female side, the way she interacts with her father, she's
disrespectful. She's disobedient, she she belittled and emasculates
her brothers. But those things were not looked at. Because she
wears hijab niqab. She's doing the classes he's praying, and the
emotional aspects and the level of emotional intelligence, which is
present all of the time, whether we like it or not, with whoever we
interact with in the workplace or at home, has not been examined,
not even once. So emotional intelligence, this name is a very
important
aspect to pick up upon. And the last thing I want to say before I
hand over to yourselves again is, and this is speaking to sisters.
A lot of sisters come with expectations to take, because they
know their husbands are coming with that paradigm of I've got to
provide, I've got to do this. And they come to take. So once their
husbands are started providing and is sticking with that provision,
then the goalposts change that you don't love me, you don't show
enough attention, you don't show enough time. And then the brother
becomes stuck because like, I don't know how to do this.
This is not what you told me in our meetings, this is not what we
discussed in our meetings, then he feels pretty threatened. And us as
men, who don't want to show that vulnerability, as Leila said, we
then go, Okay, we're incompatible. Let's move into our corners now.
Because what you're asking for now was not what you spoke about in
the relationship, you wanted me to provide this and this and this and
this, I'm doing it to the best of my capabilities. And then the
split becomes ever wider.
I'm struggling with this, I have to say I'm really struggling with
this because we grow up we grew up in a context, didn't we? We all
saw romance played out. We know what love is supposed to look
like, we know what it's supposed to feel like we know the songs we
know the poem is, that is part of our cultural lexicon says someone
made me understand how or why a brother or a sister would expect
to come into a marriage now and call us like, I don't have to do
any of that. Is it? Like, is it is it this thing? I've heard people
say that, you know, men at the end of the day do not want to do
romance. And they don't want to do any of that stuff that women like
they only do that because they have to in a particular social
contract context. But in Islamic context, I don't have to do that.
Because as long as I'm providing and I'm the head of the house,
you're gonna give me what I want regardless, like I don't have to
romance you I don't have to buy gifts or anything like that.
Where's that? Where's that? I don't I don't get it. What do I
said I'm gonna jump in again. And then I'm gonna sit back.
Question. Very good question. One of the things that's happened to
us as converts, and this is why I want to speak to that wider
microcosmic but Muslim community element. We came to the deen and
our culture, as converts was frowned upon. And we were told
that it has no compatibility with Islam, you need to shut SHINee. So
what then happens? It leaves those of us in a van apice because
you've just mentioned and I'm really glad you've done that
because others will say oh, how can we mention songs of olden
Luther Vandross and things that we were nurtured upon in the love
songs in the poetry and everything like that, but that was our
backdrop. That was our what we grew up upon. It wasn't gangsta
rap and misogyny that was that came afterwards that came later.
So many of us is convert and I will put this out to some of the
second and third generation, South Asian and Arab North African
Muslims as well. We were told that that background had no
compatibility in Islam. And so what we were left with was, again,
an abstract understanding of what it looked like 14 1500 years ago,
South Asian paradigm of culture, how they were raised, which
is which,
which, which they can speak to, but even their own second, third
generation can't speak to that because they haven't come from
that particular background. So then we're left there, looking at
scripture, looking at
or books of, of marriage and the Quran and told this is it. And
then we're told how it should be implemented. And that's very, very
difficult to do. So the romantic side, we're told no, that comes
from your junior leaving, not in the way to you want to, to
practice or implement it. So it's not just okay for bringing it up,
I think it's very important, because it affects us, as converts
a second third generation, to such a degree that we become stagnant,
that we become devoid of knowing how to show love. And you know,
when it starts coming out, in our anger, during divorces, where we
start getting bitter towards our partners, because we've shown them
elements of vulnerability, the sisters had children, she's gone
from labor for us, and, and that's the epitome of love for us. Those
of us who've been with our wives when they've had the children, and
you could see, I've seen it, I know brothers have seen it, the Y
had, you may have seen when that woman is going through the trials
for you, and you are there, or she hands the baby to you, at that
moment of her vulnerability and will lie if any man tells me he
doesn't see that, then you're not a man, he sees the love that she
has for him. Having endured that birth.
And we forget all of that. Because the context within which that
exists, is one that is alien to us, because of our history has
been told, we've been told, that doesn't connect with that, that
doesn't connect with that. Now your wife has had the baby, let
the women come out, you've got to go back to work. And when the
baby's crying at night, she's got to go sleep in a different room,
she's got to do everything, you become irritated, I'm the man I
need to get up and work. What has happened.
And what needs to happen is we need to reclaim the halal aspects
of our background, and there are a lot of them. And we need to bring
them into Islam. And we need to say, let's shape these because
Islam didn't come to take away our culture, it came to enhance it.
So sorry, I jumped in again, with that this I've been speaking about
very recently with a number of brothers and individuals, and some
are getting it, some are not getting it. But I say to those
from the predominant cultures stop telling us that our past and what
we've come from, is completely impermissible for us. Because then
we're left with no platform whatsoever.
Our children stand on our shoulders, and they sink with us.
Because it's quicksand, there's no basis for them to connect back to
Abby before you were Muslim. Now, we can't talk about that. Abby,
what made you come to Islam and Bs, you can't talk about that,
Mum, you've got this emotional intelligence, tell us about your
past, there was no past.
But then when they look on the street, when they look into the
culture of the non Muslims, they see there's a long culture there
that they know we were connected to. So they go seeking themselves
and the love and the attraction of that pulls them away from the
Dean, because it has a longer chain as a longer line of
familiarity than what we are showing them.
That's fascinating. Oh, totally agree with with that, you know, we
are, again being in the marriage, sort of not actually who we
genuinely are. And so it's very hard for us to actually keep that
up. And some of us will do it for a good number of years. And what
we are seeing is that it may seem like there's a lot of sisters who
are learning more about the deen and knowing about their rights,
but they're doing it on not just the dean level, but also in terms
of going through the coaching process. So there's that that
growth difference, they're growing. And then they're actually
forgetting Okay, for even though you've grown now, prior to that he
was a certain way, which wasn't actually who you were at the core.
And you're presenting that to your partner who's then trying to
actually figure out like, what happened to the person I was with
before. So I think it's that same thing of like, okay, reversing
those roles, where now the woman knows her rights, and she's like,
I want my rights, I want this, I want that, and the man's like,
world like, and vice versa, how it was before we were saying about
these roles changing around. So it's a lot of, of growth and
looking at how are we showing up in the relationships when we're
going through our own personal growth, our own personal change,
whether it's religious, spiritually, mentally, physically,
then bearing in mind that your partner has been been with this
person who they believed how you was because of how you presented
yourself and now they've got to suddenly be like, okay, she's
changed and she's changed the bar posts. Give them time to actually
catch up with you
So even when you said my MO about, we've got all of these past
romantic music or whatever, our culture, you know, that is
sometimes an assumption that that person even though they are a
revert, maybe we think that, you know, again, they must know what
romance is because we're coming from the same kind of place. But
again, two different worlds, even if you're from the same cultural
background, so you can have two different worlds. So whilst you
might have experience love in the interior, but not maybe in the
dean, it might have been the reverse for that person. It wasn't
love. It was just, you know, this is how it is. She's the man, you
know, he's the he's the man, I'm the woman. That's how it is. And
that's how they've been raised. So again, it's just looking at the
differences. And how can we get the other one to understand what
are our differences? And how are we presenting ourselves because we
have to look at the role that we're playing. So when we're
talking about, we're the ones that are raising these boys who will
become men. So it's not just a case of the men are the ones that
are showing our boys how to do, we're showing them how we are
showing up as wives and as mothers. So then projecting that
as how we should treat our their wives who will be their children's
mother. So we have to take that responsibility as well. It's it's,
you know, it's never anybody's fault. It's about how have I
shaped this relationship, whether it's the children or you know, the
husband and wife? And what role Am I playing it? We can say, yes, the
brothers are very immature. But then, you know, when we say the
act, allow that we allow that. Right, exactly. It's not to play.
What role are we playing? When we're saying that immature, we're
playing the mother? Yep. Yeah.
I'm saying you never do this, and blah, blah, blah, you should do
this. And you're being irresponsible. What about the
children did, we're playing that mother role. So they only had
that, that task to pay the son role. But you look at that same
man who goes out to work, and he's, he's an employee, he listens
to his boss, he does his job, well, he's good at his job. Or
even if he's the boss, and he's in control people, he's playing a
role where he has that level of maturity. So it may not be that
it's unfamiliar to him, but in the environment that he's in, and the
role the Tuvia playing. That's, you know, that's the role that he
sort of like falls into, because that's the role she plays. And so,
and that's why I always come from when women because I only deal
with the women
want to say to you, how do I change my husband said it's not
possible, you have to change the role that you're playing with your
husband. So that it's, it's a, there's no room for him to be able
to keep playing the same role we had before. But first of all, you
have to get comfortable in the role that you know, you want to be
in now. Because if you've been playing something for all these
years, it's not fair to fair to say, just because I've had an
awakening now that he's got to change. You've got to show him to
change for your actions for what you're doing. So what you're
saying, what you're accepting the boundaries that you put up healthy
boundaries, and where you're allowed yourself to be a bit more
vulnerable. Because some of us women are not vulnerable as well.
Yeah, that's the thing. Yeah, we come up and say, No, I'm stronger
than I know what I want. This is how it goes. No man is treating me
like that. Why are you saying to the men? Yeah, there's no place
for you to? Yeah, yeah.
And I know, after what had has to has to shoot off, so I just want
to just grab you before you go to answer one of the questions.
That's come up, and that is about the preparation. Okay. One of the
brothers mentioned in the chat that, you know, basically, you
know, maybe it still happens today. I don't know. But certainly
in our day, you can see we're all old heads here is Pamela like,
like, you know, kind of traumatized by the past, but, you
know, you'd have a meeting or two, you get some references. He's a
good brother. She's a good sister. You know, one meeting two
meetings, chemistries there, boom, we're married and that's it. Okay.
Now, the brother was saying in the chat that this you know, the kinds
of questions even that people would ask in the meetings, you
know, questions about you know, do you pray, which which which
scholars do you follow, you know, like, what books do you read like
these types of things that seem not to take compatibility into
account so I know Abdullah had mashallah, you are, you have got
some very strong ideas about what people should be doing before
marriage just before you shoot off. Could you please tell us what
what is your blueprint that you that you that you share with
people to make sure in sha Allah Insha Allah, they marry the person
that is good
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