Naima B. Robert – The {VIRTUAL} Salon Black Lives Matter Intersections of Race and Religion for Black Muslims
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Okay Bismillah Salam aleikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh just
want to welcome everybody in sha Allah, to this evenings, the
virtual salon. It's wonderful to have you all here. It's something
that we've I've not done before. We're just trying something out.
And I just want to Firstly, thank Allah subhanaw taala for bringing
us all together in this way. And I also want to thank my amazing
guests for being so gracious to just say, Yes, you know, me
wanting to reach out to the members of my faith community, you
know, as, as intellectuals, as activists, as scholars, as
creatives, you know, to have a conversation. So what we're here
to do today, literally is to have a conversation. So, without any
further ado, let us get to our amazing guests. On the panel.
Today we are joined by the coaches Nyla, Nazir and Fatima from
outstanding relationships. They are polygamy and relationship
coaches based in the States. We also have Mona Ali, a documentary
photographer based in London. We're also joined by Abdul Wahid
Stevenson, who is an imam in South London, founder of Medina college
and also a Sharia advisor. We've got Mohammed Mohammed, who is a
writer and the co founder of the black and Muslim in Britain
project. We also have Aveda manca, my son and co host who is a
sociology student in West Yorkshire. We also are joined by
buena Muhammad who is a poet, writer, activist and director
based in Canada. From across the way we have Amina Mohammed
Diggins, who is an author and entrepreneur based in the States.
And also we have have sir deputy who is a graduate and author and
also founder of the bee regroup. We have Imani Bashir,
international journalist, expat and author of our own children's
book, Bill keys quick is a mother of four boys and one girl is the
proprietor of the horror designs and an entrepreneur based in
Canada. In addition, we have Habib eyecandy, who in his normal life
is a chartered accountant, but He's also author of six books on
race, religion, and narratology. Then we have rockmart Muhammad,
who is a mother of three and author of children's books and a
diversity advocate. And last but not least, we have Michael Mercer,
who is from my country, Zimbabwe, and is an academic at Cambridge
University. Welcome to all our amazing panelists. Wonderful,
Hamdulillah. Right. Okay, I do believe that that's everyone. Now,
as you can see, the room is full, we have almost 100 p 100.
Participants panel, right. So we all know that this has been a
tumultuous time. And, you know, with the killing of George Floyd,
and just the culmination of events that have taken place in the US
and hundreds spread really across the world,
almost like lighting fires around the world. And I think those of us
who have been involved in that, I have also seen big things
happening in the Muslim community as well. conversations that maybe
have not been heard before, or be had things that have been
suppressed for a long time, are being spoken about. So I guess for
those of us who are familiar with the black struggle, particularly
the black struggle in the diaspora, I have a question. And
that is, do you think that this latest explosion, this latest kind
of peak is a true moment in the history in the sense that it's a
turning point? Or do you think that it's more of the same? Do you
think that things are really going to change in the United States
specifically, but then spilling out? Because I think that we can
all agree that maybe this level of I don't know if many people being
this vocal? I don't know. Again, I'm not the expert here. I'm
asking a question because my son is saying, it's revolution is
going to change. And I'm saying we've been here before. So from my
panelists, what do you guys think? Do you think that this is a
turning point, or what's going on? I'm gonna spot I'm going to give
you guys the coaches in sha Allah Bismillah What do you think? I'll
speak from my heart. I was raised by my grandparents and they
Got me when I was 4040 when they were 40 years old. And I heard
stories of revolution in uprising and rioting and change and civil
rights era. My grandmother's a dark skinned queen, she's 85
should be at six this month on the 27th in Sharla.
Her experience was different in that she was a nurse during the
Civil Rights era. And she was threatened many times for being
physically assaulted and different things of that nature. So to hear
certain stories that she's told me over the years,
until she was diagnosed with dementia, her struggle was
different than mine, much different than mine. So I have
this privilege of not dealing with dogs and, you know, certain
threats. But
the story she told me that her mother told her, it's like a rep,
repetitive
topic. A lot of the actions that happened, a lot of the racism that
they faced, was very similar. So it just, it sounds like this
broken wheel, but at the same time, we're in a different
space in time. You know, so it's hitting me differently. Now, as a
woman that's over 40 years old. But I have heard these stories
before. I've heard her experiences before I've heard stories of her
mother finding her mother cleaned houses and became an entrepreneur
from the bottom up. But she remembers her mother telling her I
found my you know, the man
that she worked for his Grand Wizard robe under a cabinet. She
was dusty. So it feels like we're we've been here before, like you
were saying, sister.
But it's just hitting me differently. Now. It's hitting our
children differently. But I've heard these stories from my
grandmother, from her mother, before cricket go into we didn't
really go into a lot of detail. But yes, we're coaches. We're we
are these are my wives, my wife, Coach fast. 125 years and coaching
for 10 years and teaching polygyny in person relationships. So when
the question is my opinion, goes a little bit. It feels like the same
thing. But the differences is actually different. So it's more
of a rebellion right now. So if you're asking me personally, is
this different than what we've seen before? It absolutely is
different than we've seen before. Are there going to be some
systemic changes? I believe so. I mean, they've already been some
changes. Now, when it comes to LAPD, for example, chopping off
150 million from their budget, and redirecting it. Now there's talk
of disbanding police departments. And you see both functions at work
here. When I look at MLK and what he did with non violence, for
example, and people talk about, you know, protests and non
violence, they get to see up close and personal based upon our
ability to share information on social media and capture it. The
violence of the police aggressing against these people. And funny
enough on a former Panther, Muslim brother of mine, he shared that
he's back then when back in the 60s and 70s. Yeah, there was there
was diversity. But now the level of diversity and people stopping
their silence. I was at a protest just day before yesterday, and
maybe 80% of people were white. And of course, there were some
white supremacists and everything that whatever, but the different
amount of people who are tired of being silent, especially with this
manufactured kind of greatest depression that's about to hit us
really is causing a vocal, massive change. And I'm gonna stop there
because I was three of us. No,
no, it's not funny. But you know, where it goes from now
is being caught what it is, you know, at first, it was like, oh,
you know, sweeping under the rug is something else. It's not that
it's not this. And there's these different excuses about why this
is or,
or if they would only do this or if this was to be this way. And
when you say things like that, that's when it becomes an excuse.
That's become something that you say, You're not telling you not
saying what it really is. Because if it was, if they were doing the
same thing to a different race, they were doing it to white people
or anything like that. What would it look like?
I remember watching something just real quick or watching something
where they said if you put the narrative that the words that the
media was saying about black people who were rebelling and
rioting and different things like that about something that they
shouldn't be writing or shouldn't be rebelling. The bow should be
saying, Hey, listen to me because I'm ready to speak or you need to
hear me now. We've done what you wanted us to do. Now. You gotta
listen to us. But if
You put the words, the eggs and this and all this other stuff with
these, which are
the descriptions? Yeah, with where the white kids tearing up stuff
after game after losing the game and all these other teams like,
oh, well, it was a thing gone awry or, you know, they're just angry
kids or it was just a party that went out of control, you know, and
they said, you want to change the narrative. And they did actually
took the words and put it in the same context, like split it with
pictures, where are the videos, and it was like, you can see,
you'd see it, see how crazy it wasn't, I was like, Do not let the
media, you know, distort your view of what it really is. And that's
what has been, but now with social media, with where people really
calling it what it is, people are showing, showing video is
dependent. I love that that will always be the paint like villagers
Really caught out on their About Us page, not only calling it what
it is, but also saying what needs to actually be done in order for
it to stop, or at least for it to change that stuff. When you hear
more people really calling it what it is and saying what needs to be
done. That's that's where I see the difference. That's where I see
where yes, it's similar things and same stuff that we've went through
for years and decades and hundreds of years. But now it's being
called out for what it really is.
So we're seeing a difference in the sense that the language is
spot on the language is is recognizing what what we've known,
has always been the case. Right. Imani? Imani, you wanted to you
had your hand up, masha Allah. Yes.
I, I think for me, I'm going to speak on the as as real as I can
possibly get with it. Especially having this generational anti
blackness that has existed in this country, there has always been
resistance, there has always been resistance. Since the
transatlantic slave trade, there has always been revolt, there has
always been black people saying that enough is enough. And then at
some point, you get to the civil rights movement. And you can see
women, you know, pictures of women in Somalia protesting the arrest
of Angela Davis, and people that are protesting the arrest of
Martin Luther King Jr. And you can see what it did when el hijo Malik
Shabazz Malcolm X went to Hajj and how it is that people received him
and had a better understanding of what was going on to black people
in the United States of America. And I think it's no different than
what we're experiencing. Now. I think at some point, it's going to
have to change as opposed to whether it will change or not, I
think it's a matter of
at some point, we have to know when not to be complacent because
of course, we're in a pandemic right now. So it's easy for
everyone to be in an uproar because everybody's sitting at
home. But what happens when sports are back on TV, what happens when
TV is back to its regular scheduled programming, what
happens when we have concerts to go to what happens when we have so
many other things to do, that are going to divert our attention that
were specifically you have to be quiet? That was specifically
designed to divert our attention from revolutionary acts from us
really paying attention to what is going on? And I think that's
something that's going to be happening literally in the midst
of this. Of these protests, they announced that the NBA was coming
back July 31. Why now? If you read a $40 million slave, the brother
who wrote it, William wrote and specifically stated that blacks
were only integrated into big sports leagues in order to stop
revolutionary acts from happening. And so for me, no, I don't think
it's going to be something that obviously is going to change
quickly. I think now with social media, it helps but even still,
you have people asking, Well, what did they do? They must have done
something. They probably you know what I mean? Well, we don't know
the whole story. I saw that with ahmaud arbery Well, we don't know
the whole story. And that's always like that with black lives and
people will always find a way to gaslight us as black people and
diminish our experiences. No, I totally hear that. And something
that I've noticed as well is a lot of people have been sending me
analyses by black conservatives in the US Candace Owens, people like
that who obviously have you know, their own kind of take on
shall we say their own take on you know, Candace Owens and other
people as well not just not just her but yeah, I let me go to
sensibilities next. Insha Allah go ahead says yes.
I feel like
just mentioning with sister just was talking about with the COVID I
look at it
In a way, where I feel like sometimes a lot, a lot has, it
appears that if things are coinciding, right, like, people
are inside, people have not had nothing better to do than to watch
the news. And they had to see the vivid images. And,
you know, if they were going to work, if they were, you know, busy
trying to make money, if they were, you know, doing their
business, it wouldn't have, I feel like it wouldn't have impacted
them as a deacon, you know, and so you see people outside of the
black community, other people of color and
white people really have been, they, they, they appear to have
been very impacted by this. Right. And,
and because of that, now, as well, with the COVID situation, and
there isn't really anywhere to go, now you can, they can actually
stand up and do something, right. And I feel like that's why
there's, you know, the hundreds of 1000s of people protesting, and I
feel like, I mean,
they're, you know, my parents, my, especially my father,
to be, you know, being being a person in the struggle of the 60s
in America, you know, he has told me, you know, um, Team stories
about, about the struggle, and, and, and the way that it was, and
being that nothing really seems to have changed since that point,
right. And so, when I started watching it, I started sort of
getting the same feeling where I feel like, nothing is really going
to come from this, as you know, that people have been going
through this struggle
forever. But then, but then I see, I gained, like, the silver lining
of it, when I look at the images on the screen of all of the
different colors that are, that are also standing up and I'm
praying in sha Allah, that this, you know, this this is, is an
opening, like the whole situation of COVID and all that was just an
opening, that Allah has opened up for us inshallah. Inshallah, to
Allah, wa Salam is very, very hopeful view on a coffee, I mean,
go ahead, speaking with all the other sisters who have spoken, I
think we won't know until we know, you know, like, because we've all
been here before, um, you know, you know, talking like, you know,
to my parents, you know, reading history, looking at history, until
it's, you know, I've seen, I see that now, people are being called
out visibly on their stuff, you know,
you know, not using profanity called out on their BS, you know,
and you until we see, like, hearts changed. And still we until we see
actual laws that are gonna hold police accountable for their
actions. And I know that those things are in the works, that we
can actually vote on those particular type of things where
you can hold police accountable and stop and change laws that have
given them immunity, which is one of the reasons why, you know, none
of them have a lot of the times when they've been charged or
arrested. And there have not been any penalties because they're the
laws that protect them. So Inshallah, we'll see that those
laws will change.
I try not to be too cynical, because then I try to, I get kind
of down on myself, and it brings my entire morale down.
But it has to be genuine, like we see a lot of organizations outside
of the Muslim community outside of the black diaspora community,
reaching out to I'm pretty sure that all of us have gotten inboxes
or emails asking what to do.
And you have to kind of think about, is it a genuine is a
genuine? Because you kind of know, you would think, right, like, you
would know how to fix your own house, I think that we all know
how to fix our own houses is the, the wanting to do it, and actually
doing it. So I think America knows how to fix his house, you know,
but whether or not they
are committed to change, or if they're committed to
white supremacy, that idea of white supremacy. So we'll see, you
know, I take that we'll see when we'll see type of approach
inshallah.
Allah, you know, you mentioned the issue of like, you know, people
reaching out and saying, you know, what can I do, how can I help, et
cetera and, you know, obviously, I'm not American and you know,
I've never lived in the States and you know, only have as probably as
much proximity as a lot of the British people on this panel do
but like, we've known about racism in the US, like forever, so I find
it so I find it so strange that people are really saying I didn't
know it was that bad. Or, like, Tell me tell me your truth. Like
Tell me your story. Like Didn't you watch route
It's like, didn't you watch routes? Wasn't it on TV? You know,
like, I thought we all watch routes I thought, you know, we've
we've had these, you know, we've had riots we've had, you know
Rodney King, you guys all know Martin Luther King. You all know,
Malcolm X, you know, everyone knows about the Civil Rights
everyone was going crazy about this is America, you know,
childish gambini and Beyonce been talking about it like, it's like,
What do you mean, you didn't know? Like, I'm finding it really
difficult. And I worry that obviously, social media, I think,
is showing its power right now. Because the narrative doesn't seem
to be orchestrated right now, I don't know whether you guys agree,
just unmute if you disagree. I'll spotlight you right away. Like you
have something to say on that. Just to just, I was talking to
someone recently, and I mentioned the Tulsa
burning and bombing of Tulsa. And, like, really, and I was like, oh,
you know, so I think that some people put on blinders. And I
think that America is really good about blinders, you know, we're
just going to look at what we want to look at and kind of ignore, you
know, the house burning down around us.
And, you know, people can be just committed to their comfort, you
know, so in our schools don't, unless you a parent makes a
conscious decision to talk to their children about these things.
You know, a lot of like, slavery now on days is kind of sugar
coated. There's talking about as far as immigrants, you know.
So you see those type of conversations. So you would have
to,
I guess it depends on the person. But I do think that people choose
to be educated, or choose to remain ignorant. And I think we
all have to everyone has to hold themselves accountable.
You know, but yeah, people put on blinders. Right? Yeah. Can I speak
on that? So I actually agree with the system. You know, I feel like
white America or especially conservatives in America, like to
look at history, in a sense of divorce. So they look at it from
afar and think, oh, civil rights. That's cool. That's interesting.
But they don't actually realize that civil rights was only 6050
years ago, they don't realize that this is literally their history.
This is stuff that black people or black people still alive today
have gone through and have suffered through, they look at it
from a sense of like looking at a far even these are people's real
experiences. So I feel like with this new with this, Aubrey, I'm
George Floyd killing coming to light. This is not new. But it's
just that the black community and even people who are allies to the
black community have made it like pushed in people's face like, this
is the reality this is what's happening. Look at this. And to
the point where people who aren't looking at it, they're cold out,
like I've seen, like people like I've messaged them, and like
racists have been like the context of our school contact with our
college and stuff like that. It's where we have enough allies that
we it's us against the racist. And we are like on the we are on the
majority side rather than on the losing end up as we've been on
throughout this time. So I feel like this, it may be, it may be a
trend, like this may often may be a trend of people just like they
Oh, they feel obligated to spot it. But in this time of
trendiness, we can still make a change because you can see the
Minneapolis Police Department was shut down a lot, some change is
coming. But we need to make it monumental enough. So that it's
it's changed for the like for the good, not some few not here and
there and make sure that this change is enough change for black
people to like have that kind of status that we need.
Thank you so much about mashallah, this third generation Zed.
Representative was I have a question for because we have
Canadians on the panel. We've got you know, people living in the UK.
And I'm curious to know from from you, I know that Canada was
feeling quite, you know, satisfied with itself to say, Oh my God,
look at those Americans, aren't they a disgrace, and then kind of
getting called out a little bit to say, Hey, this is not like just an
American problem. And I'm also would love to bring in my Brits as
well, because we've obviously had protests here. We've got our young
man who I'm sorry, I'm so proud of him. But I always forget his name,
the one from Star Wars. The one who's been really really vocal,
what's his name? Come on, you know his name. Hafsa. What's his name?
Yes, yes, Ma sha Allah. So I'd love for some of the Brits or the
Canadians to chime in. I've got you Mohammed. Go ahead. Yeah. 100%
do UK is not innocent. Do UK has a I would say as serious as I can.
Do care has a track record of
Police are what I prefer to stay is state sanctioned violence,
state sanctioned murder. There's been 1500 people, black people who
have died in police custody, which is even more insidious because
it's all behind closed doors and no cameras in, you know, which is
even more concerning Google cases like Sarah Reed died in police
custody in the last five years, we have a semi Lewis who died in the
same way that Joe Flo died when he was complaining about he can't
breathe. These these cases aren't exclusive to the American
experience, which is, which is even more concerning that a black
experience is international, the same suffering the same trauma
that we feel. And I think that's why a lot of black people across
the board, from us in the UK following all these stories, is
that we feel that trauma, we feel that it's that the trauma is is it
crosses the Atlantic, it's hurtful, it's also draining.
having to constantly shout, constantly tried to educate your
peers. And as, as sister NEMA said, of these inboxes, and DMS
and messages and emails of how can enemy isn't the same thing? How
can other people reach out, it's really not our job to educate the
wider community on how not to be racist.
Say that, again. Those of you who are on Twitter, please just be
tweeting from this. I need you to say that again. Because that's
actually that's, that's, that's yeah, that's a quotable there,
please. It's really concerning that we, these, you know, and I
get from, like the Muslim point of view from the, from the non Black
Muslims, we're getting, I don't know, if they're trying to be as
sincere as possible, or they're trying to make themselves feel
better, so that they are being on the wrong. And we it's not our job
as black as black people. It's not our job as Black Muslims to
educate you, to not be racist, to educate you to treat your fellow
human beings with dignity and respect, that not only you would
expect from morality sense of you, but as what Allah commanded, it
shouldn't be an alien thing. So if we're looking at how this whole
state sanctioned violence, and now I genuinely prefer to say this,
because this is sanctioned by the government, these police
departments, these institutions that police black bodies, this is
something that's a government control, this is sanctioned by the
state, this is funded, this is actually funded by our own taxes,
our taxes go towards public services. And with that in mind,
our money is being used to kill our fellow our fellow citizens,
our fellow citizens, our fellow brothers and sisters, and that's
really concerning and the UK are are equally if not,
if not worse, because it's more insidious, people can't see and we
don't have cameras in custody is very, very concerning. And even we
see we've Coronavirus, most of the fines and
aggression on Brits in the UK to get back inside their homes and
stuff has been disproportionately affecting black people. So even in
a moment of pandemic, there's no there's no rest in being black
skin. Just you know, to your point, you know, you said exactly
this about Corona. And you know, the whole situation with you know,
the juxtaposition of the reliance of a country like the UK on
immigrant and you know, second generation immigrant families the
reliance on the whole system that is keeping us together we've
talked about this you know, about there being black and brown people
keeping this country going, you know, through the NHS and
everything right.
juxtaposing that moment that which really showed all you Brexit
people talking about oh they're taking our jobs you know what
they're doing here and everything just how just the fallacy really
of Britain's you know you know lack of need for these brown
people and you know, we don't need them here we don't want them here
right? But then in that same moment when they wanted to
commemorate these frontline workers if you remember the huge
Ferrari about the NHS white washing of the NHS, do you
remember that? Yeah, they had put together this wonderful thing is
wonderful commemoration no black people that no brown people in it
even though as Brother Mohammed said you know we you know, we in
there you know
Subhan Allah have some wanted to speak on this as well. So let's go
ahead
I'm sorry.
So I completely agree with Mohammed I think that
the UK especially for me, it's very scary because it's even more
difficult to use the terms like racism and discrimination and anti
blackness because everybody just
attend as if it's not our issue. And it's something that is just
very individual to the US. And Brother Mohammed has talked about
the idea of over policing and state sanctioned violence. And I
think that that structurally develops into our medical systems
into our education systems. And all of these things fuel the fact
that people can act as if it's not happening. And there's an amnesia
surrounding our imperial history and our colonial history, to
understand that we're the people that birth the racism that
actually exists in America currently. And I think all of this
for me, brother Muhammad mentioned the idea of, obviously, the
victims shouldn't be the ones who have the onus to educate people.
And I don't know how well that sits with me, I've had that
mentality for a very, very long time. And I obviously understand
the idea of trauma, and us not requite like being the people who
should have the responsibility to do that. However, I think,
especially with the climate, I've only seen the benefit in our
speaking about our experiences, I've only seen the benefit in us,
educating people and I think, especially when people are
receptive, that's when you sit down and have a conversation if
you said, you know, okay, look, this is my experiences, and
someone is questioning that questioning your experience, or
they are speaking against it, then I think in that moment, do not
waste your energy, because there is no point you can't justify, you
can't sort of if someone doesn't get the injustice, you can't try
and you know, create humanity within them. They either are
human, or they're not. So I think, you know, education is an
important part. And I think knowledge is fundamental to this
being revolutionary or not, I think we have to educate ourselves
and continuously be thinking critically. And I think,
especially when it comes to the idea of privilege, you mentioned
with the sisters before about not understanding how people can be so
blinded to what's happening around them. And I think it's when you've
really, because imagine for them, they wake up in the morning, and
this privilege is a part of their existence. The first thing is that
it's hard to separate from that. But the second thing is they might
not actually recognize it as a privilege. There's the assumption
that everybody sort of has that privilege as well. So for me, it's
a bit like, Okay, if you can have a conversation with those
individuals to help them recognize their privilege, then that goes in
a long way that goes a long way in creating and strengthening ally
ship within different communities. But yeah, it's definitely I don't
think there's one way of doing it, but I think everybody has to take
on the role with which they're comfortable. So if you're not
comfortable with educating and you think the trauma is too much for
you, and then you're very much, you know, that that's a position
that you can take for yourself in sha Allah. Makes sense? And I
think I watched your video where you were talking about this. Yeah.
And I think it's something that goes in like in waves almost,
doesn't it? I'm gonna go to Mona next and then Imani.
But just the idea that there are times when the fire is burning,
right, and you're ready to just like, just light them up, you
know, like, like everybody up with the truth and with your story with
experience. But I think what I have seen in especially,
particularly the black Muslim community, which we are definitely
going to go and talk about, is that fire, but then knowing that
that fire is also consuming you. So there being a need for times
when it's like, you know what, I just can't like don't ask this of
me right now. But anyway, like you said, Everybody's got their way of
communicating and their way of getting that message across.
Mashallah, so if we can be part of the change, then may Allah accept
that from us, sis mana, you're on my dear.
So,
yeah, I feel like I can't breathe. I've been feeling like this for
the past week. It's been a rather intense journey. Since that,
everything that's happened, all the hashtags, the continuous
stories, everything, everything has been
deeply personal. And, and I've had to kind of sit with myself and ask
myself, like, Why am I being affected by this as much as I am?
And it's one of those the question that you asked, like, do people
forget that racism even existed? And to be honest with you, I feel
like I forgot. I feel like
the experiences that we've gone through with our families like my
father is East African, black man, very much.
Kind of singled out when it comes to
everything to do with racism. And it just is one of those things
where we've kind of repressed everything that we've gone
through.
As children growing up in Britain,
the little bits of racism that was ingrained in our lives, through
school life through university, through the places that we've been
to the ways that our fathers have been treated in the workplaces.
All of these things.
Have been emotionally exhausting. And it's almost as though now we
have
forced to come to terms with everything that we've been
through. And that's how I feel. I feel like I've had to sit down
with myself. I've had to find the words to express how I feel and
why I feel it, and why it's making my voice shake.
Why is it so deeply personal, and then you start to look through
everything in the past, like everything that you've been made
to go through, and having to accept as a norm,
and never having to have come to terms with it until now. So yeah,
when people DM you and ask you questions, and everything like
that
kind of puts you in a position of CES. Can you do your research,
please? Because now you're putting me in a position of utmost pain
without yourself realizing and I think a lot of people are kind of
going through the same thing as me right now. Yeah, no, definitely.
Sis Imani. Go ahead.
Firstly, I just wanted to say that number one sister has this
sentiment, I just have to, I feel like we don't say this enough that
Britain is the OG like Britain is the OG of our government, our
oppression, our tyranny, like Britain is the OG. And so it's
interesting to see people like Boris Johnson coming out. And
speaking about Black Lives Matter. Oh, my word Prince, that pretty
much was like I'm out of here because of how it is that they've
treated his black wife. And so it's so interesting to me that
even, you know, so many countries, they're like, Oh, we're coming
together, black lives matter, black lives matter. And it's like
the people are coming together, but your governments and your
systems that you have in place, they don't they don't mirror that
they don't mirror that sentiment, even with the black people that
you have that live in your country, as of right now, how it
is that you have treated refugees that have attempted to seek refuge
and coming to your countries for safety, for food, and nourishment,
and all of these things. It's like we have seen this anti blackness
worldwide, I have had the privilege of being able to live in
multiple countries of the world. I've lived in China, I've lived in
Poland, I've lived in Africa, I've lived in the Middle East. And so
I've seen anti blackness and what it is that it looks like, and many
different facets. And so it's interesting to me, especially in
the United States of America, when a lot of non black people come
here that have faced tyranny and oppression in their own
communities, they will turn their nose up at us as though somehow we
have done something that they did not do in their own countries to
be on the end result of the things that we are going through
generationally worldwide. And that's something that for me, I'm
not afraid to educate people about their own cultures, because I feel
like some people forget some people forget what their mother's
went through. Some people forget what their grandfathers went
through. And so sometimes I think it's important. And just mirroring
with a half sunset, as far as you know, I'm not afraid of teaching.
If somebody needs a lesson now, if you're somebody that's going to
gaslight me and tell me what it is that I'm experiencing is not real.
I'm not doing that. I'm not even taking the time. But if you're
somebody who genuinely just happens to live in a bubble, there
are people who exist like that, then maybe I can take that time to
pull you to the side and say, This is what privileges This is what
your privileges are. And this is how it negatively impacts these
people. And more than so people that look like me. Also when it
comes to
Islam specifically, I've been telling people all week, one of
the first things that was commanded upon the Prophet
Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam was in Accra, it crossed
read, people forget to read people forget that that is a commandment
that he didn't just put that Allah didn't just placed upon the
Prophet Muhammad, Salah lives tell him that he placed upon all of us,
you cannot know each other as a law says that He created us and
tribes and cultures in order to know each other, you can't know
anything without learning it first. And so that is something
that our community seems to continue to sidestep in there,
what it is that they think they know, versus what it is that they
should know. It's very similar with a pattern that I'm 33 years
Muslim, my father's 67 years, you know what I mean? Muslim and so,
even every year, during the holy month of Ramadan, we are told to
read the Quran. And everybody else can maybe you know, say yes or no
to the sentiment, but we're lucky every time every Ramadan, I get
something new. I get something new that I've read from this Quran
that I've had my entire life that we've had for 14 1500 years. You
know what I mean? And that's because every time you ascend in
your knowledge, every time that you read more, learn more and
experience more experiences the best teacher but also when you
will implement the things that you have learned, you become offended,
you become accelerated in your deen as a Muslim. So I implore
everyone if you have friends and family and people that have the
Stegner sentiments, sit them down and tell them they number one they
need to read first read their Islam, because a lot of people
don't know their Islam they think they know. But they don't know
their Islam, the story of our first Prophet Adam alayhi. Salam,
it lets us know that arrogance and pride. And racism does not exist
here. And we see that it bleeds turn into shape turn like that,
is that the kind of person that you want to be? So that's the
that's the the the learning tool that I implement whenever it is
that I'm trying to help non Black Muslims understand where it is
that their privilege will get them. If you think that you're
somehow better than someone, if you think that somehow their
problem is so far outside of you that you are not going to stand up
for the oppressed, the oppressive prayers are going to meet us on
the Day of Judgment, not the privilege.
Or Whoa, okay, no 100%. Happy Habib, go ahead.
I love what everyone is saying, I just want to add my two cents on
it. In terms of whenever we have, do we have an obligation to teach
white people or non black people about about racism? I wouldn't say
we have an obligation. But I think those of us who've got the energy
and capacity to do so I agree with what I have to say than a man is
what I think we should because at the end of the day, if we're going
to be we're not going to say anything, they should educate
themselves,
where they're going to turn to like, it's easy to say go go to
Google and find out yourself. But it's like, sometimes they want to
find out okay, most of books to read or who the people shall speak
to first and to be honest, as a man, economically as a man that's
got no privilege of serving my Midford it's taken me or still
take me over almost 30 years to understand male privilege. Now the
when people are asking, Okay, why is it white people white? And as a
man why? And I'm just picking gender as a man, why would I want
to get rid of my privilege? If I'm benefiting from it? Why am I going
to keep that for a woman? Down the South? I'm not saying that. I'm
saying that to be facetious. I'm saying, if your personal
privilege, generally, you will not going to want to give it up unless
it's forced from you. And that's just that's just reality. So
where, and someone said previously about that a lot of white people
have got blind spots. And I agree with that. And
I somewhat blame them somewhat don't. And I'm speaking of white
people, non black people in altogether, because some of them
are not like you mentioned, someone mentioned, I think was
nine I mentioned earlier about roots. many white people haven't
seen roots. many white people don't even really know who Malcolm
X is. As much as shocking as it sounds. A lot of white people we
think like when we see these celebrities, like there's some
white people I've worked with most I work in the corporate industry
and a lot of white people, the only black people that I know of
is Beyonce.
She really bad.
I'm just saying that
this idea that white people are non black people are educated of
what the similar experience that we have a lot of them they're
oblivious to it. And as far as they're concerned, why should they
know about? Why should they educate themselves about about
systematic racism and what's going on with black people. And I'll be
honest, there have issues that are going on in our community. But
it's only when people bring it to my attention that I made aware of
it. So I've got a Chinese friend that was speaking to me about the
discrimination that he suffered amongst black people, Nigerians in
the UK when he used to go to like hip hop events and comedy stores,
and when they will speak about like, and I didn't even think
about it's only when someone else a friend of mine told me then
actually reflected upon it. So again, I'm not saying this to give
white people pass, don't get me wrong, but I'm just saying a lot
of them, they have got a blind spot, and a lot of non black
people have a blind spot price. I'm not saying it's our
obligation, but if anyone who's got energy and the capacity should
try and be, you know, be I mean, you know, give some time to come
educate your point or point them in the right direction. Sometimes
I do feel like, you know, like, is it Fannie Lou Hamer said I'm sick
and tired of being sick and tired. Then other times I'm thinking I
should be optimistic because this idea that because it's 2020 racism
should any other on some people say that racism is not going to
end, anti blackness is not going to end. And I'm not saying that.
So we don't fight it. We still fight against and fight for for
fight for justice. But anti blackness is going to exist on to
off at the end of time. It's always been around race. And it's
always been about and I don't think we can eradicate it
completely. But I think one thing we should just particularly as
black people, because I'm not concerned with teaching non black
people about black oppression and black trauma. I'm concerned with
empowering black people. So we don't have an inferiority complex,
and teaching us the importance of group economics. Because if we're
empowered, and we've got own institutions, we're doing our
ground work, we don't really need to be concerned about what other
people are doing. I'm not talking about state violence and police
brutality, that's something totally different. But in terms
of, especially particularly amongst younger people, I'm seeing
now that a number of non black people in particular and it's
quite cringe worthy of speaking about how black people at the
bottom, black women are the most
less desirable ones and I like the way I told him that in the eyes of
new people
You got, he's also taught us that, well, there is some black people
that some black men, that's another conversation altogether,
but I'm saying this idea that we are inferior, I think that that's
quite dangerous that we need to make sure we don't develop the
inferiority complex. Yes, we're systematically oppressed, I don't
feel inferior to any white person or any age info for any error
person. And I think particularly as Muslims and black people, we
should see ourselves that we're blessed to be Muslim, and we pass
the challenge of being a black person, but not let that seep into
our consciousness where we develop this integrated complex. That's
the only thing I kind of wanted to add on. No, I agree with you,
100%. But I want to just challenge you on that about the anti
blackness has always existed,
historically, is that a fact? Because I'm just, I'm just going
back now, beyond the time of white expansion. Okay, so, and this is,
I'm pleased, I know, we've got mazing his scholars and historians
in here. So I really do want to kind of educate myself, because my
understanding, my understanding was that, obviously, we know that
different peoples, you know, existed and flourished all around
the world. And, you know, the first contact that Europeans had
with non, you know, with, with non non white people, there was a
mixture of all, because some of them were pretty awesome, you
know, like, some of the civilizations that they went to
the places that they went to, there, was this, this this kind
of, or, and then also, what can we get out of this? Oh, they've got
some pretty cool stuff. And then, you know, there's so so those
voyages of discovery, were they racist at that point? Was there
always a sense of superiority? Because the thing is that white
society in white civilization has not always been dominant. It
hasn't always been the top civilization, it hasn't always
controlled the narrative as far as the rest of the world is
concerned. So is it actually a fact that it's always existed?
There's always been anti blackness? Or is that a function
more of white dominance and white control of the narrative, and then
white people needed to make sense of the world in the way that they
do. And then, of course, us reading their books and us
listening to them. So I'm just gonna throw that out there. I've
got lots of hands up everywhere have been Do you have something to
say on that since I was telling you in the first place, and I'm
glad you did challenge me on that. But this anti blackness predated
white colonialism, or European colonialism? The idea that it's
white people that invented white people invented scientific racism,
as we understand racism. Why until the anti blackness Well, certain
people for being Darker, darker, being darkened skin is less
attractive or less desirable, that was even in existence during the
time of the Prophet. So
I'm actually
the Hindus, but again, my point is, is that it's looking if you're
looking at history, from the perspective of example, maybe the
ancient Indians and looked at darker skinned people as being
inferior. That's their issue. But it doesn't mean anti blackness
always existed, for example, in Africa, and black African
countries. So I think it's my issue that we're always looking at
what did white people say? What did the Arabs say? What did the
agency yeah, sometimes I don't care what they say, because their
own issues? Yeah, I get that. But I'm saying, there's always going
to be whether it's tribalism, whether it's nationalism, whether
it's racism, there's always going to be divisions within human
beings, I'm saying that somebody is going to be by the color of
your skin, sometimes it might be by this idea of a caste system
sometimes might be closed, but I'm saying anti blackness or people
that's speaking ill of someone maybe that looks different.
In recorded if you from what I'm aware from, please educate me, if
I'm if I'm, if someone can tell me otherwise, that's always been in
existence with people that come into contact. Unfortunately, black
people, it doesn't mean black people are inferior, it's just
that other people got the issue. And I've used it against black
people, but to always frame it as if it's always the white people to
Europeans. And unfortunately, and this especially is how hard people
have Muslims to take is that a number of Arabs were suppressed
anti black sentiment, particularly against black women, which
predated the Europeans and if we're not ready to tackle that,
and we're speaking about the white people, Europeans all the time,
and then we'll talk about Okay, what about the Arabs? What about
if in, in, in, in Muslim countries today, what else we can have black
people, black women? We don't talk about that. So even if framing as
if it's always about why people Europeans, why we were centering
their narrative or their history or their books as that's the most
important thing when history does not start in Europe.
Please, whoever's quoting, tweeting Instagramming storying.
Please put that because I love the way that you mentioned that the
centering of the narrative. And I think that we also fall into that.
I mean, we do of course, because you know, we live in a white
supremacist dominant culture. But I do agree with you that the way
forward for for any oppressed people or any marginalized people,
is to start a center their own narrative is to start to
strengthen their own internal narrative because just as you
said, anti blackness didn't exist in black
countries that didn't exist in black lands, you know, Africa
itself didn't have a problem with the way that our women look with
the way that our men look with the way that our hair is our noses.
That was our normal, and that's what we loved. And, you know, I
think, tapping back into that, and I think a lot of us are parents
here. So I think a lot of us are very aware of the need to educate
our children and inculcate that self love in our black children,
when it comes to their features and their hair, and just who we
are as a people, I think I agree with you heavy, that is definitely
a way for us to reclaim the narrative and not center, the, you
know, the white gaze or the you know, the white perspective, or
who we are as a people because, yeah, that's, that's their thing.
So I've got lots of hands up here, my shoulder, just like, luckily,
I'm gonna go to the coaches. First, they had their hands up for
a while, then in may then have some challah. Hey, so I'm like
them. You know, one of the interesting things when we even
get into history or talking about the US, in particular, the US, it
must be understood that the US is the pinnacle of white supremacy.
They've achieved such even with the educational system, for
example, the cost of the transatlantic slave trade, because
they want to distance themselves from it, when in reality, it's a
European American slave trade. So when the Gender Education Board
under JPMorgan Chase, and Wentworth, and audits in early
90s, just to go, you're not going to hear you're gonna hear your
heroes, the inventors and all these individuals are white. So it
is no surprise when you wake up, and you're Marvel Superheroes are
white, and everybody else is Rogers white, that they're
oblivious to what's going on. And we in particular, are oblivious to
going on even black Muslims. So, for example, 101 years ago, we
have Marcus Garvey. And he did what no black person still has yet
to do. 101 years ago, with eighth grade schooling education, you're
talking about somebody may Blackstar line that's bad ocean
line is doing business with Africa, uniting people all across
the world. And it doesn't matter where you got dropped off at, we
still come from a certain place, and hotels, manufacturing
facilities, all these types of things. But the person and people
would bring it down with web the world, the boys who was praised in
a lot of our history mouth or in markets is buried, or you go back
to a time to profitably sell to Islam, where many Muslims don't
know about the blackness that went on. You talk about somebody who
came from the lineage of an Egyptian woman who married our
father, Ibrahim Alayhi. Salam, right. So he has Egyptian heritage
through him and he was known as having white skin basically being
light skinned or brown skin. So or in his own household. You have
Osama bin Zaid, when he was asked to leave the army, you know,
companions had an issue that he was young, he was 1718 years old.
He was a boy, they looked him as a boy. Yeah, that's right. But they
didn't say Oh, because he's black, but he was black raised in his
house, right? So we look at these different people. And we don't
know our history. We don't know that black women be down from day
one. Day one from day one, the very first shot at the very first
shot, he was a black woman in Islam. I didn't know Samira
Yelahanka was a black woman forever. And I've only been Muslim
Muslim over 2520 some years now. And I had no idea of that. And
it's not like oh, it doesn't matter. It actually absolutely
does matter for reason, or the first person to call it any
different places, believe it or not, these holy sites of Islam and
why and the way the Prophet SAW position and destroyed these
different things. We don't know what's black as Black Muslims. And
many Muslims aren't knowing, let alone our culture and I know I
skim like the Malcolm more or Huey. So there's the whole
colorism issue that goes with us as well. But I think when you're
talking about history, we're talking about the Greeks were
going to ancient African Kemet to get knowledge. So now anti
blackness hasn't always been it has been looked at as the
pinnacle. But obviously, we know that that isn't where that
division has been. Because that's been before creation. And the
jealousy of arbitration. I think even jazzy said it best. He said,
you know, say Tom says three things about the human being, he
says, One, you know, I can see you, you can't see me. I can see
you can't see me. I have one goal. You're distracted with a whole
bunch of different things. All right, and I'm old and your new
man. He knows our desires, our temptations and all these
different things. While we can't really see a lot of this division,
because I mean racism, if you will, not until Bacon's Rebellion
in the 15th century were poor, white indentured servants, Irish
servants, rebuilding united with enslaved Africans here in the
United States that that term, even really come about when I was based
on the color of your skin being enslaved over here in the United
States. So it's like, hey, at least we're not niggas from
saying, these were not niggles. We're poor. We're being oppressed,
all this type of stuff, but at least we're not nips. Yeah. So
that whole racism began to build so the US is the absolute pinnacle
of it. And in doing so, you have to continue to control the
narrative through mass media, which was great when it was just
TV because that just you know, a lot of people really began to see
a lot of brutality but now with this independent media, we're not
you capturing cameras now you have from different angles. Every five
minutes Shaun King is showing another state sponsored terror
is crushing people with their batons are stepping on him or
kicking them that begins to open up a different world like, Dan,
what what have I been living in? Yeah, what's really going on? So
I'm cautiously optimistic and looking at what's going on,
because that is a different flavor going with it. But at the same
time, we still know where we are, and we still know what they think
of us. Yeah, I'm gonna go to Imani and then Bill keys, and then Amina
Sharla.
So I'll be very short. And just going back to my sediment about
Adam Alayhis Salam, and when we talk about,
you know how long racism has existed from and you know, anybody
with a better Islamic knowledge than me, I'm always ready to
learn, but from what it is that I interpreted from, from the Arabic
that's in the Quran that he believes that he would not bow to
Adam, because he was made of black mud, black clay. And so I think we
make that differentiation as opposed to just saying, he said,
he didn't want to bow to him because he's made a fire and he
that he believes was made a fire and that he was just made of clay.
As opposed to black clay, it changes the dynamic of what it is
that we're talking about in this conversation. So for me, this is
what I know the interpretation to be was that Adam was made of black
mud and black clay. And for me, with that being the first example
of man, that is the very first example that we have of racism,
racism is a power structure. It is a power structure. And people
forget that No, it doesn't have to be white people back can be the
only ones that are racist, Arabs can certainly be racist, it is a
power structure in saying that I have something over you, I have
some type of dominance over you in which I can oppress you. We've
seen that in ancient Egypt with the speech, I lived in Egypt, we
seen that with them seeing these things that black people built.
And it's like, how do I not have a monument like this? To me, that is
anti blackness, that is racism. And so I think there are nuances
of anti blackness and racism that exists, I think we just don't gear
it in that direction. Because either it is that we don't want to
see it that way. But I feel that a law has placed it in front of us
for it to see it all throughout time, that is not a new concept,
but that it has changed and develop and accelerated in various
ways. Wow, thanks so much, sis. Okay, Bill, please go ahead.
Just speaking on the
Canadian situation.
I don't know why people fail to remember that when the European
pirates brought me
to North America, they also brought them to Canada. And they
brought them to the Caribbean. So, you know, in this whole situation,
including Canada, and it's also including the West Indies as well.
My mother was struggling, she, she came from Jamaica as a young
child. And she was in the 60s in Canada, in the black
movement here, you know, and it was very, it was very similar to
the American situation. Canada is just the younger brother of
America. And, you know, when the brother is saying that America is
the pinnacle of it, Canada has it. And so when we're speaking about
the systemic issue, you know, all of the all of the institutional,
racist,
you know, oppressive
things that we need to break apart, Canada is definitely
involved in that. And they, the pot, a lot of the policies are
very similar to America.
And just speaking on whether, you know, black people, you know, need
to educate other people of color, because that because, you know,
in, in my sphere, that's what it is other people of color in
Canada, that are, you know, in my spaces, and that has been asking
me, and, you know,
I feel like you're tired, right? You're tired because this is not a
new thing, you know, and I even I tried to teach my parents about
it, they're also they're beyond tired, okay.
It's been, it's been forever, right? And you trying to explain
this to people, and you really want to say, you know,
go study the history of the country that you live in, like you
came here, your property your you know, your your, your parents have
come here, they you know, we're you know, maybe fleeing oppression
you know, genocide, whatever, but they came here for a better life,
you know, and a lot of a lot of people of color. Their parents
came here with wealth as well. Right and
Education.
And they came here and they're, they're prospering, you know, and
they're just not understanding the history of the country that they
live in. And, and, you know, who built the country? Right? And
we're not just speaking of, you know, mentioning, the Aboriginal
brothers and sisters, like, you know, that
took the first blow kind of thing. So I just feel like, people really
need to really educate themselves, right? And
you want to say, oh, it's the oldest on the black people got,
oh, it's your struggle, whatever, you know, people always educate,
you know, if it's about Palestine, all the Palestinians come out, and
they try, you know, you know,
we're tired. I mean, I don't know what the, you know, the other
African American brothers sisters that are on this thing, but like,
me, just being up here in Canada, and I live in Canada, okay. I'm
already tired, I could just imagine how it is. For them down,
they're having to deal with other people of color. And I'm also
including, I'm sorry to say this, I'm also including our other
African brothers and sisters. Hmm. Speak to that, you know, better
situation, you know, that, you know, they came here, a lot of
times they came here with, with, with education with, with money,
you know, they were the, you know, the higher class in, you know,
situation, that's how they got here, you know, and they just
really don't have the same experience. And, you know,
mashallah, I feel like this is, this is the rally for the, you
know, racism of, of all, you know, you know, trying to somehow
eradicate the racism of all black people around the world. You know,
in sha Allah, this is the catalyst. But in this current
situation, in this current moment, right here, I feel like, you know,
all of the other people of color, especially our other, our African
brothers and sisters need to go towards the afro,
Afro American, Afro Caribbean, Africa, Afro Canadian, this
brothers and sisters and really lift them up, because this is a
struggle that they have been fighting for.
Since the pirates brought them here, okay, that's the pirates
brought their ancestors here, okay. And it's so deep, it's so
deep. It's so it's so rooted. And for you to actually understand,
you need to
start studying. You know,
I think you know, just what you mentioned, because thank you for
sharing that. Take a list. Breathe, breathe, who take a
breath, take a breath. Those of you who are on Twitter, or
Instagram or Facebook, if you want to use hashtag the virtual Cylon,
and hashtag race and religion and you can tag me in all we post. But
just just to touch on one thing before I go to Rama next, because
she hasn't had a chance to speak in Sharla. That sister Amina,
but the fact that you know, I think, talking about people of
color within the Muslim space.
I think a lot of Muslims, of course, there's been the whole
people of color line, okay, where basically, the idea is that, you
know, POC people have aligned, aligned, you know, that their
goals are aligned, right. So we don't have to say black, we don't
have to say Brown, we can just say people of color and put them all
in there. And I think maybe a lot of Muslims feel like, well, we're
oppressed to like as Muslims, we're stigmatized, we're
oppressed, we're discriminated against. We have laws against us,
right.
And I feel that there's a lack of understanding about the fact that
everyone is privileged in their own space, right.
Everybody enjoys a level of privilege, right? And I'm going to
go from, you know, for example, we talked somebody mentioned
colorism. And so in certain spaces, lighter skinned black
people are privileged. Right? I'm going to put my hand up and say
that I have Nickleby privilege because in certain spaces, I am
more palatable to the community because I wear the niqab. I'm also
racially ambiguous. So people don't necessarily know that I'm
black. So I'm very aware of my privilege in that sense, somebody
who's educated no matter their race, they've got a sense of
privilege in certain areas and within the Muslim community. We
have Muslim men who enjoy Muslim male privilege. And then we have
the dominant Muslim cultures. If it's an Arab community, there's
Arab privilege. If it's a desi community, there's DESE privilege
if it's Gujaratis, you know Gujarat is on top right? If you're
in a Somali community, you've got Somali privilege, right. So then
not I think that I really wanted to kind of segue into the
conversations that have been taking place within the Muslim
community, because there has been what I've seen like
Got a sense of almost outrage that black Muslims dare align
themselves with other black people who are not Muslim, right? And
then turn around and point to the community and say y'all got it
too. Y'all racist too, you know, and I think I really would like us
to talk about that because I want to know how you feel about these
all these conferences, right. And these people jumping on lives and
everybody's like, you know, now it's like the thing so tell me
like what your thoughts are.
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