Naima B. Robert – Sexual Dissatisfaction in Muslim Marriages Aminah O’Rourke TMC 2E6
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Bismillah Salam aleikum wa rahmatullah wa barakato. Welcome
back guys to another episode of the marriage conversation with
your sister name OB Robert. And today I am joined by Amina Jane
O'Rourke, who is a therapist up from Manchester. And she's here to
talk to us about really the word on the street, says salam aleikum
wa rahmatullah wa barakato. When they come to love you better care
to care for inviting me here, Masha, Allah, I'm super, super
pleased to have you here. I know that you've mashallah got a
background in therapy and pastoral care.
But one of the things that I reached out to you about was your
really firsthand, well, is it firsthand, probably more second
hand knowledge of what is going on in Muslim homes when it comes to
the bedroom? So I would love it, if you could share with us. What's
the word on the street? What are Muslim women saying to you about
their physical, intimate relationships? What's going on? I
think you hit a really good point, like a nail on the head right
there with just your setup there, right? Because the vast majority
of women who come to me don't come for intimately related therapy,
like I'm not a * therapist, so to speak, if you like, like,
that's not how I advertise myself, but naturally, because we have a
confidential relationship.
It's surprising how much that permeates the quality of life that
ladies feel like they're having in every aspect of their lives,
right? Because the self worth attached to that the self
confidence, self esteem, all these different things. So, you know,
wow, where do we start? I mean, there's a big variety of issues.
And I mean, I don't think it's, I don't think it's like an
exclusively Muslim problem. But I think, because of the confusion
about modesty, and the confusion about be having the ability to
reach out with sincere intention, and the consultation or self
development in any way, you know, Muslim women seem to have this big
misconception that they're absolutely, absolutely never
allowed to speak about what's going on in the marriage. Right?
And especially what's going on in the bedroom? Yeah. And that's not
been the history throughout Muslim history, I'm sure you probably
already aware.
Tell us a little bit about that.
Again, sorry. Tell us a bit about that. Because there'll be viewers
who are like, what, what's your she on about what she wants to
say? What's she talking about? So, like your otology in Islam is not
a new thing. This is like considered one of the sacred
sciences, right? This is halal. We're talking about, you know,
where there's marriage in place, and everything, you know, this is
like, absolutely undisputed Ibadah from start to finish, you know,
due to its intention, and something that Allah has decreed
for us all to enjoy, you know, and that is the way it's supposed to
be right. But I think I'm not entirely sure. And other people
will be able to either correct me on this, or they will be able to,
you know, compliment me on being accurate on this. I believe that
was colonization, for example of the world. What came with that was
a prudish nature around
intimacy and marriage and things like that. Because we can't negate
the fact that, you know, these countries that colonize, I know,
this is not about colonization, it's not. But the reason I
mentioned in this is, you know, these colonized cultures, so to
speak, would have permeated societies to an extent and some
new boundaries or new etiquettes that they felt appropriate, excuse
me. And it kind of negated the fact that it became new cultures
in Muslim society, the you know, it wasn't acceptable for women to
have these conversations or men to have these conversations. This was
strictly private again, and, you know, we weren't supposed to talk
about it. But if you look into Islamic history, so one of the
people I'm going to mention a few times, and I really hope he
doesn't mind is me, but candy. I'm sure you've heard of him before,
right? So he's written multiple books, but three of them in
particular that I'm aware of, are about intimacy in marriage, and he
talks a lot a lot in depth about the Islamic the very rich Islamic
history in getting it right in the bedroom, basically. Yeah. And he's
got all the advice and he's got a you know, from a spiritual
perspective and intellectual perspective. He is absolutely
brilliant. And that's where a lot of my reading has stemmed from, to
be quite honest with you in relation to that. I was. I was
surprised to hear that you're Muslim history even as early as
the fourth Khalif you know, there were village aunties of the day in
Medina, who knew exactly what to tell their own sons what to do,
for example, when they got married, and they knew exactly
what to tell the daughters to expect and
With absolutely you know unabashedly so type of thing, you
know, it was, you know, I'm giving you this because you need this
information you supposed to enjoy it, it wasn't an uncomfortable
conversation for them was last decided that you're allowed this
you getting married this is great thing you are, here's all the
information you need. If you need anything else after then, you
know, it was an always open dialogue. Wow, you seem to have
suffered a severe disconnect to that to the point where I think I
mentioned to this this to you before, when I've I've had
conversation conversations with ladies from some heritage
communities and some non heritage communities, mainly heritage
communities, if I'm being completely honest, though, is that
literally until the night of the Monday, they just get sexual
innuendos. And they actually have no * education before that
point. And I'm like, but
that's an absolute travesty type of being, you know, like, because
while I don't agree with the agenda that's being pushed in
schools, * education is very important,
isn't it? I'm sure you'll agree with me.
And so the reason why I'm mentioning that is because they
would then go on to say, so you either have to have an
understanding husband, who will hear you out, or you don't. And
that's the end of that conversation type of thing. And he
probably didn't get any slightly of * education in that sense,
either. I mean, he probably learned a lot of stuff, but not
necessarily what he would need to know and understand in order to
make that night, you know, a pleasurable and then kind of, you
know, comfortable night for him and his new wife. So, yeah, it's a
bit like the almost blind leading the blind, isn't it? Absolutely.
And, you know, you don't, you don't just get, you know,
miraculous revelation about this kind of thing, literally, you
know, as all individual human beings, it's, yeah, you know,
especially as marriages, you know, growing length of time, it's about
you know, growing with the spouse, isn't it and making sure that
you're still interested in for them, and they're still interested
for you. And not just, you know, physically intimately but
emotionally and intellectually intimately as well, like somebody
said, to me, was one of the most important things you consider with
your own husband type of thing. And it was like, the ability to
intellectually dance is like, right. And I'm married to another
convert. We had some very frank conversations before we got
married.
And we did have a conversation about intimacy and like, our
expectations, and you know, in a modest fashion, you know, with
chaperones around and things like that, it was really important to
us that we're on the same page as to convicts who have been married
before, because yeah, it's not a joke, and it's not something you
want to leave. You definitely don't want to No, no, you can't
you can't know. The reality is that you can't the reason I'm
laughing sorry, guys, I'm not being Purell. I'm just thinking
I'm sure that you and your intended, knew exactly why you
were having the conversation and knew what your boundaries were.
But I just am sure any chaperones just well, wishing that the ground
would open up and they could hear you. Let's just look at that
really interesting lampshade over there for a moment while
it's happening. So okay, so there's obviously a big gap in
some of our communities, you know, when it comes to open conversation
about *, and about what * is for, how it works, and you know,
and what to expect, let alone conversations about pleasure,
which is something different, isn't it? But, you know, what else
have you been hearing? So,
there wasn't that long ago, where I actually saw this online, it was
anonymously posted in a group and a lady had said
that she wasn't aware when she climax, what her husband would
tell her and he would finish, and the ladies in the group, the vast
majority of them thought this was hilarious. I told her how he was
completely violating her rights and things like this. And I said,
Well, actually, if she feels emotionally fulfilled by the
exchange, it's not a total loss, actually, because intimacy is
different things for different people. Right? So we're going to
be really honest about this. Yes, women do have, you know, a goal of
being able to *, for example, either during * or
outside, but during the foreplay process, and what whatever the
case may be, you know, they want physical release in that regard.
And for most women, it is possible when they've, you know, looked at
the reasons that could be blocking them from that and that includes
the man obviously, being able to openly vulnerable conversations,
have you become they also are dropping in there, again, talks a
lot about that in these. Well,
it really is like a training course, the whole three thing, the
whole three text. The reason I'm mentioning that is because there
was a lot of emphasis on * and I don't know if this is I
mean, they're important. They are important.
Got to be up there we one of the biggest stress relievers, I'm not
thinking well, the emotional exchange that's happening as well
for some women is equally as beneficial as a stress relief as
well. It's about real
assurance and safety and security. And I felt like the way that
particular thread was handled, it wasn't one of my own threads or
anything, but I just felt like, if we actually just took a step back
as sisters, and ask the you know, how do you feel about that you
feeling like there's something missing rather than telling you
there's something missing? Right? Hmm. That's really interesting.
Two things come up for me. One is, you know, as you say,
if you feel you know, fulfilled, you're fulfilled, you know, there
isn't a checklist, right. But I think there's, there's a situation
where nobody talks about what happens behind closed doors, and
you are none the wiser. Yeah, so of course, you know, I don't know
when that would have been because I know that back home, and back in
the day, people talked, you know, even if it was in the hammer, or
you know, when they had their ladies coming together the hen the
night, you know, people drop things, right. But
there would have been a sense of, okay, I may have a hint, but I
don't know what's really going on. Right.
So that's that was then now we have a situation where I think
probably in more practicing communities, right? Where there
isn't that kind of sensual, like open sensuality between women. I
look at cultures like Moroccan culture, for example, Moroccan
culture, culture is very essential, right? But when
Moroccans start practicing Islam, they do not bring the sensuality
with them, they typically will kind of leave that, you know,
leave that, you know, when they start practicing and kind of, you
know, being stricter with their with their Deen, often, they will
feel like, there isn't room here for that kind of kind of that kind
of exchange anyway. So then you have a situation where no one is
talking about anything.
In which case, you've got no idea whether it's, it's, you know, is
this normal? Is this not normal? Should I be doing this? Should I
be having that, you know, how should it be feeding? How should I
be doing, and if your mother and your aunties and your older
sisters are also not talking to you and your friends, you're too
shy to ask them because you feel that this is, this is haram and
you don't want them to fall into haram, then you are in a silo,
right? However, the society that we live in, is so hyper
sexualized.
And we can't avoid that, you know, I mean, I'm not a Game of Thrones
person. But I heard about Game of Thrones. Never seen an episode,
but I feel like I know the characters. So I know, I've heard
about it. Right. And anyway, anytime you see a new series come
out, films that come out, even music videos, you know, you might
see them, you know, adverts just all around us, there is this hyper
sexualized culture. And it's like, you know, if you are in any way
knowledgeable about that, you're hearing words, you're hearing
terms, you're hearing positions, you're hearing all this stuff
that's happening out there. And I wonder how many of our sisters
maybe brothers too, but I think, you know, we're talking primarily
about sisters wonder whether they are doing it right, whether
they're supposed to be doing what they see that person doing or
wearing what that person is wearing or maybe sexist supposed
to be this way or that way or this way. What what what is it that
sisters are, are are sharing with you in that regard?
Okay, so I think you're right, about the hyper sexualization of
everything, and there's been not a lot that we can do about that
being aware of itself, how it's affecting you is a really
important one, because it's something I've been pondering on a
lot recently asking myself in relation to women who have
extremely high * drive compared to the husbands which would not
expect stereotypically, right?
I'm not judging anybody. I'm asking myself
how much consumption
of whatever's going on around them is feeding into that right was
Wow.
While I am all for you know, if it's an everyday thing in your
house, it should be an everyday thing in your house enjoy it and
you know, it's halal and Masha Allah and may Allah preserve you
both and
long life, both of you, I mean, but if it is literally dominating
your every thought every day and causing you a level of anxiety,
you're actually teetering on addiction, they're really
important to be aware of in terms of what you're scrolling through.
Because I know that I only follow for example, on Instagram.
Well being related pages on my business page, and inspirational
speakers and things like that, but on my personal page, I'll follow
some foodie things. You know, what if I go on the discover page, it
doesn't take
More than a couple of scrolls up before there's some some nakedness
there, right? And I'm talking about not just I'm not talking
about no headscarf on, I'm talking about a nakedness on Instagram
nakedness, right? Yeah.
Stuff like this, and I'm, like, ended up there like I was that
cookied into my kind of think like, what's it doing there? And
then you've got, like, really religious people, either side of
them? Because it's like, it's a grid. Right? Yeah. And, you know,
people see these things, and they are either informed or dis
disheartened by it, you know, they're my, you know, see the way
somebody is moving and think I can't even move like that. So it's
a real good one that is really, really, really interesting.
It's a real double edged sword, though, isn't it? Right? So it's
either like inspiration for the halal so it's like, if you go back
to the Hadith of the Prophet, salatu salam, and forgive me, I am
paraphrasing here. And I stand openly be corrected by anybody who
wants to correct me on this. When a man sees a woman, whether it's
online, whether it's in the street, or whether it's in a shop,
or at work, or wherever it is, he was commanded by the prophets all
of a sudden to immediately go home and make love to his wife. Right?
Yeah, yeah. And we know what their their sense in that is, I know of
women where their husbands have done that the women have come to
me and told me and they've been disgusted by the fact that the
husband seen somebody else that he likes, and I'm like, did the best.
He actually made the best decision he could make in that scenario,
the CIO appalled by the fact he's even seen somebody else, but this
is society, we have to we have to have level with this. So going
back to your, your original question, sorry, about, you know,
them seeing these pieces of media and hyper sexualization. And you
know, is it the truth really is the some people as you can
education in *, that's the truth. In the absence of adequate
Muslim * education for young people. They are seeking education
in *. And when you hear about some of the stories about women
being hurt, physically hurt, and then obviously psychologically
hurt. And the husbands might not have intended to hurt them that
way, but they've seen something and they think that's how you do
it, right? Because there's so much shame in asking for help. And
that's part of the post colonial hangover, if you like, want to
call it something else. I don't know why we move you've got a
better term for it than that. But you know, the hangover of
colonialism and why I talked about that Prudy sat prudish attitude
coming in probably 18th century if you like, onwards, you know,
before that Muslim communities tended to in the Arabian Peninsula
at least have open honest conversations about these things.
Have you been friendly talks about one woman in a book and I can't
remember her name. And she's on her way back from Umrah.
Allah forgive me for not memorizing the name I should have
memorized it. And Othman was the main lobby pleases him was the
Khalif at the time and she's on the Cairo she's in the caravan
should I say she's on her camel and she's obviously got drapes
around during things like this. And her husband looks at her in a
way and she looks at him in a way and they know what they want to do
on the camel, right?
I know right? I'm just like, I want to say how I wanna I want to
say let me start here. Come on and say hi. All right.
But us man himself why we pleased with him is walking past her. Her
camel on his camel. And here's her and it doesn't bat an eyelid
because he knows what's going on is completely Hello.
You know she's with her husband. One we really we don't know about
these stories because we've not been you know, and it's important
that we do why because so many people are suppressing themselves
so much I mean think about all the people who are living in houses
with in laws you know my brother in law sister in law and I get
economic law it's gotta be the one of the best as a convert. I'm like
this is the best economic for everyone's family. And I see lots
of women obviously unhappy in the whole mother in law scenario
that's another conversation for another day but economically is
definitely a fabulous thing. But the reality is even recently I saw
I was told people about people being scolded for going for a
shower in the middle of the night
waking the house up and things like that and I'm just like wow no
need to choose really what they want to pick up pick on this is so
interesting to me because I'm sure I'm sorry you know if there's
anybody who's offended by this but I'm sure that the same you know
mom in law the same mom the same Auntie that is scolding you know,
couples for making hostel in the night is waiting on those
grandchildren, impatiently.
The mother in law's have said things like I wish you'd leave my
son alone. You know, you never let him rest. And it's like maybe it's
just not leaving her alone.
Maybe.
And the reason I say that is because it is both Masha Allah,
that's exactly why Allah has joined them together. You know,
what did you think was going to happen when you join them in Metro
Monet? Like, what did you think this was all about? Wow, okay.
Okay. income communities, it really is primarily about
procreation, and that'd be, that'd be all type of thing. But the
reality is, right, it's usually it's not just about that, that is,
you know, you know, increasing the armor is a primary concern for all
of us and as a stepmother to three and a mother of four myself with
my contribution.
The other two points are, you know, it's about that
psychological, intimate, emotional and physical exchange that bond
between husband and wife. And it should continue long after you
know, if you decided that your contribution, I mean, Allah might
decide different who knows, you've probably seen me pregnant. And the
other thing is, you know what the reality is? I mean, I hope that
there aren't, I hope that there isn't anyone listening who still
holds the idea that, you know, as for Muslims, * is primarily for
procreation and for the purpose of having children because there is
no delille for that in the Sunnah whatsoever. And the way that the
Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, what we know of his
intimate life with his wives.
It debunks everything. You know, it was a pleasurable exchange. It
was a bad it was connection. It was love. It was released. It was
it was, you know, physical pleasure. And he taught us how to
do it. He gave them an advice on it. He gave the women advice on
it, you know, that this is something one of our other guests
said, you know, Islam is a sixth positive religion. And I think
that that's undisputable, you know, undeniable, and hamdu
Lillahi Rabbil Alameen. So, it's interesting as you say, how we as
Muslims have developed a culture that is actually a you know, like
you said prudish, and yes, we have higher
and we have etiquette and respect when we talk about it. And we also
have boundaries, right? We have, you know, halal and haram we know
what is haram and we know what is halal, which is vast, but the idea
that * is something to be ashamed of, or it's like a dirty
little secret. There's no deal for that in the Sunnah. Because, as
you say, you know, this was something that was openly
discussed, openly asked about opening preached about and taught,
right, so hamdulillah net, Mattel, Islam, de la, masha Allah. So
we've got a lack of education. We've got education coming from
*,
what else we got going on?
One of the things I discovered recently in a * related
conversation online, I think this might have been in the last couple
of weeks was that there was a potentially negative term related
to shame being used in colloquial speech of
another language. So this was another heritage Muslim community
conversate we're not an exclusive the conversation about heritage
Muslims, but
a lot of the contributors were and then we went on and I said, All In
fact, I think it was a post I put on, I put a post on about how
about we replace I don't know if you saw that. The words, I haven't
even got it on me. Now. I can't remember exactly what it said. But
the words dirty and immodest, with,
you know, sacred, spiritual and sacred. Yeah. Right. Because I
was, me personally, without going into like, I've been a non Muslim,
right. So I've lived Janelia lifestyle, just like Oman and
Qatar, just like Abu Bakar. Like
so many people are. And then I've come into a place of guidance,
right. And then I had a marriage in guidance. So it was like a
single Muslim, like 18 months, and I was like, Oh, I am never getting
married, because you won't marry strangers. And we don't do that
where I'm coming from so.
And then lo and behold, I ended up obviously, meeting my husband,
etc, we ended up getting married. And the reason I'm mentioning that
is because my intimate experience Subhanallah was so different. And
I didn't intend to do something different. It was just the halal
spirituality about all of it. That made it so different. So the
reason I'm mentioning that is because it like you said, you
know, like your previous guests have said, it's a * positive
religion. It's not all about but it's not what we're all about,
like, like, that's it the be all and end all.
But the truth is, it's like when you think about the type of
language because linguistically and you'll you'll know this, how
Something's written,
versus how it can be written and say two completely different
things or have a different tone, immediately replanted. And the
same in the spoken word, right. So it's like, if we could even pause
and be a bit more responsive rather than reactive where
They will be insisted to sister or whether it will be in wife to
husband or husband to wife and sit in that place of just pause for a
moment. So that we can give the best words back, we often are
going to get a much more positive response because we've taken a
moment to reframe it rather than blurt it out doesn't happen all
the time when it's helpful piece of advice for that.
So if people are using a term and this was disputed on this thread,
I think it was Shahram or something like that. I'm sure some
people from the subcontinent will correct me on that. What does it
mean? What does it mean? This was it. So a few people said it had
been used in the
past as a word for shame about private parts. So
children from
themselves, okay, okay, sure. I'm sure I'm or something I might,
because I see, okay, I'm with you now. Okay, that language
experience. But then other people came and say, well, actually, we
use this word. And it we had a completely different psychological
perspective about private parts, which is really interesting. So
again, it's about how people in families are communicating these
things, you know, a noticing, actually, I might need to break
that cycle in my family, because that didn't really serve me. Well,
when, you know, the first time I was going to be intimate, or
it could be triggering on and on and on. You see, and that's a lot
of the work I do. Can you remember when the first time was that? You
heard that? Yeah. And how that made you feel? Yeah. Okay. And
then we look at, you know, what's that, like, inside your body? Can
you feel it anywhere? And then that's the bulk of my work. So
where it where does that sit in the body in terms of agents
comfort attention? Yeah. And we work with that with the words
based on a lot of the memories if
not completely undo it, but give a bit of distance between. So for
example, I think one of the problems with the men is there's a
lot of shame talk towards them. Oh, I think break that down as
young children. So if they're taught that it's shameful,
anything sexual, shameful Shame, shame, shame, shame. Yeah, they're
gonna believe it's shameful. And that's must be sorry, can I just
jump in? This must be to do with nakedness initially, right? It's
probably going to be touching yourself nakedness and maybe
touching yourself as a child. Right?
Okay, so I think even well intended, if the word is taken. I
know like one of my teachers, she says that the word love in English
is just love, right? And you think, you know, you know, like
English, she talks about the word love in Arabic. And she talks
about all the different words of loving, and what they mean. And I
mean, I'm not fluent in Arabic. So, but even to just sit in here,
a breakdown one word like love, which is a verb, right? Love is a
verb, it's something we do, it's not something we say. Whereas
versus like, in Western society, it is very much. You know, it's
about saying things, you know, like saying it rather than like
the actions, there's a lot of emphasis on that. For Muslims, I
feel like, it really like being Muslim is a verb. And this is part
of it, you know, able to sit in these vulnerable spaces with each
other. When I mentioned about
what to think about men, unless it's a medical condition, having
like, really low testosterone or something like that.
And I think about the wives feeling unfulfilled. It breaks my
heart a little bit, in all honesty with you. It don't back yourself
back. I said, What do you mean? What do you mean? Why is feeling
unfulfilled? Oh, is this an issue? Is this something that's
happening? Sorry? Yeah. So one of the things that are happening is,
and I think we might have met touched on it a little bit at the
straw is that there seems to be a growing trend of Muslim women who
are increasing in libido, and they seem to be married to men who have
very low libido, right? And we talked about that not being the
usual stereotype we would have in our minds, right? Because think
about Hadith. Like, you'll be cursed for three nights, if you
say no to your husband, and there's a lot of disgruntled women
out there thinking but my husband was, to me all the time type of
thing.
How is this fair? And it really is a difficult one, that one is
complex, it's not an easily answered conversation. Because
when I'm thinking about that, not just as a therapist, but as a
practicing Muslim woman who's consciously on a spiritual path,
and I think about you know, yes, you know, * is halal, and
intimacy is halal, and all that kind of thing. And if we have like
the urge, or we just want to then we come with our spouse and all
that kind of stuff. The truth is, it really shouldn't, we shouldn't
just be eating, sleeping, and doing that way, we should have
more than those three things. Right. And you might think, Well,
what of course we do most of the time, but the truth is, a lot of
people like we talked about earlier, becoming really over
sexualized, or really, you know, having really high * drives as a
part of that and that's why I said it's, you know, such a it's about
being personally vigilant about you know, what's really what will
fill your cup type of thing because some women are saying that
go six months and the husbands are not. Okay, well does that
It's not a hyper sexualized somebody that not at all not
something because the husbands are very active as fathers, they work
long hours, they've got children who might have, they might have a
child who's got special needs, you're very active with that
child, he gets very exhausted, he's probably very stressed. And
she wants to have * every single day. And he's saying no. And
obviously, there's lots of things at play there, she's tired and
wants emotional release, because she's been with the kids all day.
And that is valid. But likewise, she also does have to accept that
hang on a minute, you know, maybe there's some more intellectual
dancing, you could do through some therapy together, or, you know,
other ways of fulfillment that aren't so, you know, pardon the
pun physically draining, so to speak. And I mean, that in the in
the best of possible ways, because you can have meaningful, very deep
and meaningful conversations with your spouse, and it's not all
about physical intimacy. Oh, wait a minute. Okay. Okay, I need to
push back on this, okay. Because a deep intellectual conversation all
day long, wonderful.
But
the physical and emotional release of a sexual encounter is not the
same. So if a woman whether she has a high libido or not, because,
as far as I'm concerned, if you have not had relations for six
months, because your husband has been saying no, yes. You know, you
may have asked for it, like twice a month, and it was still no, you
know what I mean? Like, it doesn't mean that you have got a high
drive, it just means that you have desire. So that woman who has
desire cannot fulfill her desire with her husband.
She's not going to be fulfilled by an intellectual conversation.
I was being clear what I was referring to every day attempt
were mentally tired physically, I wasn't referring to anybody who's
going, because the sun just for all the listeners, is leaving more
than four days, days. Four days, didn't leave her for more than
four days without having sexual relations with her. She should
feel like you're attentive to her sexual needs. Yeah. And the reason
I say that is because Ghosal is obligatory on a Friday, or sorry,
on a Friday. Yeah, or a reason. Okay. And it's not always because
you just started praying on a Friday, it's because you're
supposed to make gospel obligatory for your wife on a Friday. They do
that in Egypt, they do that in Egypt? Yes, yeah. So it's Thursday
night, you know, like, a really positive part. So it's supposed to
be like, no matter what you're going on in life, there's not just
the wife, or, you know, early on Friday mornings for the wife,
whatever, you know, when you work commitments are, so don't leave a
you know, especially more than a week type of thing, you know, so,
really, unless there's a medical reason, there really isn't a
reason why you should believe in a and so let's, let's talk to this
because there may be people who are watching brothers, sisters,
who are in, you know, this type of kind of * desert marriage, if
you like, where, you know, one partner, either in a situation
where one partner just wants it more than the other, but they are
still active, or they are actually more or less inactive. And, you
know, it's not something that they've agreed on. It's not
something that they're both mutually, you know, fine with, you
know, one partner wants it and the other doesn't, let's, let's, let's
say, let's, what do what can we say to people in that situation?
What do you advise them to do? If they find themselves in that
situation?
Are we talking about regularly not wanting it, or every now and
again, not wanting it? No, not wanting it regularly, like so when
I say like a dead bedroom. So this couple has been three, six months,
a year, two years without having *. One thing I always say and
it's gonna sound really cliche, I'll start with a disclaimer, I
don't do couples therapy, because I don't speak to men in trouble
setting. And that's because to truly be vulnerable with your
therapist, you have to be and some Muslim ladies do see male client,
I'm just not one that does. Because I'm just like, there's
people out there to do it.
The reason why I'm mentioning this is because it's it's a therapy
therapy therapy answer, because they're usually very creative ways
that they can physically explore each other without even actually
having * if they don't want to have * with each
other.
Some of the problems that came up recently was one of the ladies
were seeing that even if her husband makes her get her an
*, not through penetration. And then he's like, right, I'm
gonna roll over and go to sleep. She's still not happy with that.
She
He's saying that she feels like it's still used by that even
though his goal was to give her pleasure. So I'm like it's usually
the other way around. Right? Yeah, hold on.
Hold on wait so he pleased you didn't get anything himself
necessarily but he pleased you but you feel used make that make
sense. What that why? Yeah, I wish I could make it make because it's
really rooted in self worth right so she's obviously telling herself
a story or two story. Yeah. And we all have these self stories and
then you're a big talker of this, you know, yeah, this Masha Allah,
may Allah preserve you even just Allah.
Because the stories we tell ourselves of the loudest ones we
hear every day, right? And if she's going to sleep a feeling
now, this sounds even more cliche, not enough for some reason, like,
why are you just leaving me? Like, why does he not want to have *
with me saying, as opposed, right? Why is he just so me out type of
things so that he can then go to sleep? Well dependent? Is the
question in her mind, why does he not want it? Is it that he doesn't
want me? He doesn't desire me? Why does he not desire me? Because all
very well, you know, me getting my peace. But why does he not want to
have his peace with me? Why doesn't he not want me? Do you
think that that might be part of it? Yes, I definitely think that's
part of it. And for me, my advice would be free to work on yourself
a little bit about what how she values herself what her self worth
is. And I know like we'd like the coaching industry exploding and
stuff like that. It sounds really cliche, but the reason she doesn't
have to do it through coaching, she could do it too. So okay, the
reason I'm mentioning it is because we don't even realize, I
won't say exactly what it was, we don't realize what for example, a
parental statement or an inaction from a parent in the formative
years not to seven actually leaves, like invisible imprint on
us for the rest of our lives. Right. And this doesn't mean we
should all hate our parents, which would resent them and that they're
all toxic. No, I actually believe most parents do the best that they
could with the tools, they had insularity with you financially,
emotionally, you know, and if they didn't make the best choice for
you for something you needed at the time, it's okay to forgive
them, and accept that you might need to work on some stuff
yourself. And that's basically why so many women mashallah and it is
great to see a movement of this to be quite honest with you, and
moving into a place of personal development. And you do a lot of
work in this to write writing and things. Because it really is
important that we, lots of us were raised in a society where children
are seen and not heard, right. And that was like a common theme for a
lot of us
to be heard, and even hear your own truth back to yourself, is
empowering in itself, it gives you permission to say actually, that's
not gonna be my truth anymore, kind of shape or form and helps
you intellectually and cognitively break through that, right. So the
reason I'm mentioning that is because when she is in a place,
if a woman can stand with a hand on a heart, in my opinion, and
say, I know what I am, and I know what I'm not, and we had recently
over a lady was being slandered over something. And I'm sure that
was to do with some potential kind of like marriage opportunity.
I said, Put your hand on your heart, and take a deep breath. And
tell yourself you know, who you are and who you know.
And Allah knows who you are, and who, you know,
take another three deep breaths, because there's not a thing that
person can say about you on this planet.
It will, you know, bereft you have anything
new, you know, or increase you in anything, you know, literally
everything down to reputation is with a lot every single second of
it. So, we forget, don't we right? Because like, social media is so
loud and all that kind of stuff. So the reason I'm mentioning that
is we've got lots of information constantly bombard you know, as
she may have seen or been told, at some point in her journey, that,
you know, husband is not interested in his wife, if that
and it's usually go to most women would presume that. Yeah, having a
really open conversation. And if it locks you in you your big brown
eyes and says, I love you. And I'm just, I'm just washed out right
now. But I want to make sure you get what you need is a very
different exchange to, you know, I'm just sought you out and then
I'm gonna roll over and fall asleep because I feel like I've
ticked a box.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. No, it makes sense. And I think something else that
comes up for me is something that I'm really big on, which is
reframing. Because like you said, we're all telling ourselves
stories all the time. And obviously in this case, she's
telling herself a story that makes her feel frustrated and angry and
resentful of him. Right. And that whatever that story is, whether
the story is that I'm just a checkbox
For him, he doesn't want me, you know, I'm not good enough, or you
know, he's this and that, and that or he always does do that, or
whatever it is. The story isn't helping to,
to make good sense of the situation, because you can always
assume good or assume bad. And in this case, if she's angry with
him, I'm assuming that she's making, you know, it's a bad
assumption. Okay, so she's feeling some kind of way.
But like, sorry, on that point, yeah, instill kiss her. Tell her
he loves her. And is she happy? Is she ready to rest? Now there are
things that you can say. You can say. He can say, but he's not the
client? No, no. And he's not the one we're talking to. So my, my
focus is always on. What can the person I'm speaking to do to make
this situation better for herself? Obviously, she, she, I would think
that if you can, if a person can reframe because it's for me, it
the frame for me is Alhamdulillah, he cares enough about me to at
least take care of me. You know what I mean? Right? Because he
could not. And for me, that is that's the that's the fact of the
matter is that he could not he could just say I'm not in the
mood, and just roll over without doing anything, and go to sleep.
And plenty of men, I'm sure would do that. So for me that the frame
that is helpful to me, if I'm in that situation is this guy cares
about me, he must care about me, because he's not even getting
anything out of this. And yet, and still, he is still taking care of
my needs. Alhamdulillah let me cuddle him. Let me make him see
that. I appreciate him. I'm grateful. And I you know, I want
to be close to him. And that's it. That would be one way for me. I
think that the reframing would is brilliant, what you said there
because I never did coach in training. But I seem to have this
knack for being able to reframe things with gratitude, but not in
like a toxic positivity kind of way. And never give people
positive affirmations that they don't already own timing is a
ground that I don't go to it's not what I do is I sit with the RA
What is it right now. And when we clear that, let's just say it, how
it you know, and sometimes that, you know, doesn't include things
that you would expect most women to say. And that's great, because
it's coming out somewhere in a controlled space where it's safe.
The reason I'm mentioning that is because
when you just mentioned that then about gratitude, which is like a
Law No, I needed that today.
Everything I wanted,
it is what I needed.
And if you are rolling over for Allah, you know, Oh Allah for you
I live in IDI is what we shouldn't be
rolling over onto that pillow, right.
It's about you know, having these wonderful exchanges and trying to
fall asleep with a heart with zero rancor in it
is a goal. I'm digressing a bit spiritually there. But it's like
an active goal. But it's true. And no, it is true. And I think, you
know, I think if that person that man if he she was able to, to be
in that space of like you said, I got what I needed today. Thank
you, Allah hamdulillah and and hugged him and thanked him. Then,
at another point, maybe she could say something like what you said,
you know, I would really love it. If after we could have a cuddle
before you go to see, you know what I mean? And in that space,
he's not in a defensive, but what more do you want? never satisfied
kind of thing. Because he knows that she does appreciate his
effort. She sees that he's trying, she appreciates that she was
grateful. And this is just a tweak. I don't know. No, it's
true. And it's definitely I'm sure there are some people out there
listening to this, you may well give that exact thing a go.
Because, you know, physical fulfillment for a woman is a
really important thing. And we pretend walking around veiled like
we do that. I used to work with the non Muslim colleagues in
public service and used to say things to me like the women,
especially, how could you kind of do that? Because I used to make it
very safe for people to ask me the questions on the menu, scared to
ask every else why any question is scared to ask anybody else.
And they used to say things like, how would you feel about being
part of a religion where you're gonna get cursed? Basically, if
you say no to your husband, you've just got you've just got to be on
top for him all the time. And I said, Do you know something that
you might not be as familiar with is that my husband is not really
supposed to approach me unless his intention is to satisfy my needs
first.
Before his own and if he hasn't got the energy unless he made me
feel used. He's not supposed to approach me at all. Oh, no, I
know, that's not a wajib it's not an obligation is what nonetheless,
for the people who love the sooner as much as they love the
obligatory, you know, act, they will make that an active
intention, right, a gym, a verb, so to speak of a seminar instead
of one that's just spoken about that
Their jaws used to be on the floor like seriously and applied. So I'm
like trying to break down and debunk the stereotypes of Muslim
women about things. And you know, some people you set us up for why
you can't talk about that to non Muslims. And I used to think that
was our here.
Yeah, I'm saying it to women, it'll mean.
And I'm just sharing that with you because they need to do is just
like do a Google search. And it's all there because hamdulillah
everything in the deen is wild that you know, it's open to them
or sha Allah. Allah. Okay. Okay, so
the biggest challenge would you say that couples are facing behind
closed doors? What would you say it is?
I think it's probably the inability to communicate
effectively.
And that's like across the board, not just about intimacy, because
that was, I think people.
The they struggle to be vulnerable.
And one of the books I would recommend for this, by the way, is
a secular text that's very spiritual in nature. And when I
say spiritual in nature, I think she actually technically as a
Christian, she's called Brene. Brown, I'm sure you've heard about
you. And it's called Raising strong men and women can listen to
this audio book. And it should be a game changer for people in terms
of how vulnerably they present in their relationship with their
spouse, how we make that safe, how both partners are probably making
up a story about what they think the other person is thinking half
the time, I'm jumping into an assumption, which causes lots of
arguments and resentment and regret, and all that kind of
stuff. And she talks very honestly about her own journey with that
with her own husband. And I don't need to, you know, preach to the
converted, so to speak about that, because it's called daring
greatly, I'll say it again. And it's by Brene. Brown, and it's
like eight hours of audio book, and I recommend it, and I'm not
getting any kind of commission for that. Very, actually, for me, my
husband's not listened to the whole book, I don't think what you
found it because men don't like therapy this, like, traditionally.
So it's like, men don't really they don't need that. It's like
indefinitely, don't they, it's hard enough to get women into
therapy when they need it, you know, getting therapies even
harder. But giving them personal development projects, if you like,
of anything, because I'm like any kind of spirituality is personal
development, right? It's like once, I don't need to explain that
to you. That book is so practical. It's a way of constantly
analyzing, why am I triggered right now, actually,
what's going on with me? What's going up for me? And that story,
I'm telling myself that question is, like, the whole essence of
Islam, right? It's like, it's one big personal development journey,
married to somebody else who's also on a personal development
journey. But you need to be very vigilant on yourself. And if you
know that, you might not have said something in the best way you or
you could have said it better. Or you may even have an apology.
Don't hold back apologizing, just know, apologize in whichever way
you apologize, you know, verbally the great what some people do it
in other ways, of course, acknowledging the mistake, but in
intimacy, it's like,
there really is a debilitating element of that, like they feel
like they're directly hurting. How do you communicate your needs? How
do you communicate how truly satisfied you are or you aren't?
Now you think the nonverbal stuff usually confirms that and it does.
It does a lot of the time, but a lot of women are coming out of,
you know, an intimate interaction, if you like, not feeling
fulfilled, I'm still feeling like they've got no voice with it.
Again, I recommend Habiba Candis books for that. And one is called
Women of desire. The other one is called a taste of honey. That's
definitely a two person book. And the other one is called Conan
Vyasa. I think it is. Yeah.
Three, I'm getting no commission for that either. But the reason
I'm mentioning it is because these books are literally
transformative. And I don't need to tell you how rooted This is in
Islamic tradition, because he's done all our research for you to
look at check the references yourself, if you're that kind of,
we were Muslim, you feel like you need that deleted and all that
kind of stuff. It really is incredible stuff that he's put
together there for us all to benefit from I'm truly grateful
for it.
Because I've even had women who so I've had one lady and she's given
me permission to anonymize her and talk a little bit about her
experience. So she got married as a virgin. This is something we've
not touched on properly I don't think or maybe not going into very
deeply when we did a little bit but and she came from a different
cultural background. So the chat she got married to the chap had
been married before and on the wedding night even though he knew
she was a virgin. He did absolutely no foreplay with her
whatsoever. Nothing and obviously there's a lot of anxiety around
losing your virginity anyway. That's why a lot of non Muslims
end up losing it drunk or high. You know, there's a lot of and you
can see
Why they end up doing that? Not that not that they should. But
naturally it's against your future, right? They shouldn't be
doing it first place. So they do something to numb that kind of
alarm bell that's going off inside the soul. So you knew you were
doing this?
And really sadly, so they weren't able to consummate the marriage.
And they were married for a few years. And she developed a
condition called vaginismus. Yeah, which I'm sure you've heard of
before. So she literally psychologically is unable to
subconsciously, her muscles are contracting in the wall. Yeah, so
she's clamping down and there's just no way, even with an erect
penis, that they're able to consummate that marriage. He ended
up screaming at her a few times telling her she's weird. And they
ended up not married, obviously. Sorry, how long? How long was that
situation? So they weren't really together? They were married for
about two or three years. Oh, no. Oh, so Pamela, we had Amira Zacky
on on the show. And she's a readiness assessment expert. And
you know, she she teaches people how to cure the condition really.
But three years in that situation, that sounds absolutely horrific.
It was so many other things about the relationship when we went into
it, because she was in therapy, obviously, that lots of red flags
around there anyway.
But then she's, excuse me, and gone on to obviously get remarried
again later. And she's still actually unable at the moment.
She's going through, obviously, therapy with myself. And she's
doing some other therapy as well, to work on that. And I think she's
aware of the sister you just mentioned, I think she follows
should join her program because she actually has like a practical
literally step by step with tools and everything. So she should
definitely look her up in Sharla. And anybody anybody out there who
you know, has experienced an inability to have * due
to just not being able to penetrate. You may be suffering
from this condition. So please do check out our interview with Amira
Zaki, and you can just Google vaginismus and see if those
symptoms make any sense to you and you know, it is curable, you can
treat it. And there are sisters, mashallah, there are Muslims who
can help you with that, so please don't suffer in silence. And if
you're a brother watching this or listening and you know, this is
your situation, then please insha Allah do exactly the same thing,
Google get help for you and your wife, because you know, the
success rate for it being treated is very, very high. Mashallah. So
it's a logical thing, and so on, which some of you have more
control over. So don't think that you're the odd ones out, it's
actually more common than you realize, as well. So please do
seek support for it. Because just ignoring the problem never makes
it go away. Right. And we want you to have a fulfilling marriage. I
mean, yes, we do. I mean, does that allow halen sis, um, tell us
where we can find you. If people are interested in your work or
interested in working with you at cetera? How can they reach you?
Okay, so I'm on the social media, obviously, like a lot of people.
So I am on Instagram. And the handle for that is actually for
underscore healing underscore, CO, I think
Insha Allah, in the description, and obviously, I'm on Facebook,
I've got a closed group of Muslim women on face, Facebook. And
that's the difficulty with the nature of my therapy, obviously,
or any therapy really is that women often don't want to reach
out in public talk about these things. And that's okay. Just find
somebody that you can trust. It doesn't even have to be me.
There's lots of other ladies out there, mashallah, who are
providing lots of services where you really can open up about these
things. Another thing we didn't mention just quickly was that
erectile dysfunction is a real problem as well, not necessarily
in just the over 40s, which I always used to think it was. It's
predominantly issue. But it actually isn't. There's lots of
people in their 20s and 30s. And there are lots of different
reasons that likewise, that's also something you seek support for it,
and you'll soon find, hopefully, a solution for it. So you know, I
think, try to detach yourself if you can, from the shame associated
with seeking help and support about intimate issues, because
usually, you will find that as soon as you share it with somebody
who's got you know, professional experience, you really have
probably say a problem shared shared is a problem have right and
you really don't feel lighter about it. I don't need to tell you
that though. My you know, that just for anybody out there is
still kind of teetering on their shoulder Shouldn't you know? Yeah,
do him.
100% And I think one of the things that we've seen in through this
this intimate the intimacy conversation, is how many experts
we have within the Muslim community, how many, whether it's
counselors, therapists, you know, practitioners, * educators, who
are well aware of the court
and Sunnah and you know the Muslim community and are actively helping
people whether it's * addiction, whether it's erectile
dysfunction, whether it's vaginismus whether it's just *
education in general, we have Muslims now in all of those fields
mashallah and we're hoping to bring them all to you in this
series, of course, masha Allah, but the point is, there is no
there's no excuse for like you said, feeling like I can't reach
out because, you know, I don't want maybe a perspective that is
not in line with my deen and you know, and those types of things
because mashallah we have Muslims who are well versed in these
things who are actively helping people. So definitely, definitely
one thing before we go, I just want to say somebody said to me
recently, and I was quite surprised, I haven't heard this
narrative for a long time. They said, and I know them well. And
they were talking about therapy and this type of thing. And they
said to me, Well, I think we've got everything we need in the
Quran and Sunnah. I don't think we really need therapy. And I just
said, the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam was the most
emotionally intelligent human being that's ever walked the face
of this earth. He was a walking therapist. He didn't just walk,
speaking or on all the time, he was confident he was a therapist.
He was so he was a coach, he was so many different things. Allahu
alayhi wa salam, that whatever the person needed, right, and that's
one of the things he's most famous for making everybody feel like
he's speaking directly to them about them and their issues. Yeah,
yeah. Yeah. So it was interesting to hear that so if you're one of
those people who feels like if it doesn't mention it specifically in
the Quran, and the Sunnah digital, what I'm saying to you is, we will
never know all of it anyway. Right? Because Islam is an ocean
and so the information you know, previously Cairo about anything
you're not sure about, and seek professional support for it
because it really will serve you better long term. And I pray that
everybody has divine success in their endeavors. You know, before
and after they've listened to this podcast and way beyond Sunday,
aniseed and Mohammed was early he was up and he was
just like, a lot cooler here. Thank you so so much for just
sharing all those nuggets with us and guys, listen, if you've
enjoyed this then please Inshallah, like the video. Leave a
comment below with your favorite part what you liked what you
didn't like, what you want to hear more about it. Any questions that
have come up for you. Please be sure to subscribe to the channel
and follow sister Amina Jane on all the socials and Insha Allah we
will be back with more open, honest, respectful conversations
about marriage about intimacy about all of that good stuff and
we will see you in sha Allah on the next session sister I mean,
just like a local look a thank you so much for being here.
hamdulillah Salaam Alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh