Naima B. Robert – Sa’id Takuma and Maryam Lemu Share Marriage Advice for Muslim Couples
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One of my favorite couples in the dunya,
Saeed and Mariam, the Takumas.
Welcome to the show.
Always a pleasure to join you.
How are you guys doing?
We're doing good. Very good. Yeah. Alhamdulillah.
Too good. I complained to my boys that
he loves me so much. I'm sick and
tired of it. How do you like that?
And then
our oldest son said, we wish that were
my problem in life.
I know. Right? This is a it's a
good problem to have. A really good problem
to have. Yeah.
Now, you know, we scheduled,
our live, didn't we? And, we hopped on
the live, and we started having a very
emotional conversation, really, sort of right off the
bat
because I was asking you I was saying
how
I couldn't believe
your story, the story you told at the
Black Muslim Festival,
about how
the first, was it, 6 years of your
marriage were
basically a disaster.
Yeah. And it took you that long
to learn each other.
And here we are now, what is it,
30 years now,
Let's hear
for that.
May Allah give you 30 more. Arming.
Arming. But I just wanna say, you know,
it's
it's so rare to to to and especially
nowadays,
to meet or to hear a story
of story like that, where it's year after
year of just butting heads. Right?
Actually having a a a happy ending because
most of us,
you know, within 6 months or a year,
that's it. You know? We would be like,
this is the wrong person. You know? This
is I'm out. You know?
So I would love it if you would
share again, if you don't mind, sort of
the thinking behind
sticking with it
throughout those years.
Why? Why did you stay? Syed, why didn't
you send her home to her parents? What
happened?
Why did I strangle him? There's another good
question there.
The death to a spot has actually
crossed my mind.
I, If that's what it takes.
Alright.
I grew up in
a polygamy.
Yeah. And,
like I shared with you the last time,
my father,
through his lifetime, had married up to 7
women.
And,
growing up as a child, by the time
I was, I think, 6 or 7,
I was already the mediator in the fights
between the wives or even between the women
and him.
And Right. It was just I grew up
recognizing
what I wouldn't want to happen in my
life.
Right. And I made a promise to myself
that
once I find the right woman,
I would make sure we work through all
the problems
Mhmm. Till we reach that milestone
of ease, harmony,
love, and stability,
in the home. So
even before knowing who she was going to
be Mhmm. I'd already made that decision.
But I think most important
in that journey,
sister, is
me making sure I recognize
what my shortcomings
were. So at an early age,
my stepmothers and my moms would make fun,
you know, like a little jab. And those
oh, you're gonna grow up and be like
your dad. You're gonna and I hated it.
So early, I didn't want to be like
him as much as I loved him
dearly, and he loved me. Mhmm. But there
were certain
characteristics about him that I wasn't particularly comfortable
with. Mhmm. And I just told myself,
as much as I love my father,
I'm not going to be like him in
these areas.
And that was, I think, the beginning of
it for me in saying, yes. I love
him, but fix that aspect that you've inherited
so that you don't go through the same
problems that he went through.
Subhanallah.
That sounds to me like there must have
been a lot
of self
analysis
and self awareness even before you got married.
Would you say that's the case?
Absolutely. Ex absolutely. That was it. Because when
the mothers were making those comparisons,
I kept asking myself if it were true.
As young as I was, I kept I
kept reflecting.
Is what they are saying true? And if
it is true, then I need to change
it. I don't want to be like that.
So very early, I understood the importance of
that self analysis. So I grew up
doing it regularly without even realizing that was
what I was doing. Wow. Yeah. It was
just ingrained from the jokes, and they would
mock me, make fun, and I didn't enjoy
the jokes. I didn't like the fun making.
I love my father. I didn't like him
being criticized as much as he had a
problem.
But Yeah. Of course. I just yeah. I
just
said, I don't wanna be like him. Mhmm.
I love him, but I wanna I don't
wanna be like him. And I don't wanna
have many wives. I just want one. I
don't wanna have them. Get it right one
time.
One headache.
One headache. One heart. It's your right.
So so Mariam's like, hold on a minute.
Aren't you supposed to be on my side?
What's happening here?
No. But I actually think what he went
through really,
really is what helped save the marriage.
Because, obviously, I shared during the Black Muslim
festival how within 2 weeks, I'd asked for
a divorce because I grew up in a
totally different world where I saw beautiful relationship.
I saw my parents in love, alhamdulillah,
till my mom was called home to Allah
after 50 years.
And I never saw them fight one day.
We never sense tension, my brother and I.
So I went in with such unrealistic
expectations that I thought that's what marriage would
be like for me. And so when we
had our first fight within the 1st 2
weeks, I was like, I'm out of here.
It's gonna work. Not marriage.
I literally didn't know what to do. I
panicked because I I didn't know you fight.
You know, and I think that's one of
the biggest mistakes my parents had made is
they
never talked about how they had misunderstand how
they resolved conflicts.
So when I immediately within 2 weeks of
marriage, we had our our first fight. I
asked for a divorce.
He just saw me melt have a meltdown
crying
and calmed me down and, like, no. It's
okay. You know? He was shocked by his
new brother. This is normal, Marie Anne. It's
okay. This is okay. It's normal.
That was normal.
And, you know, he got to calm me
down the first time. But the next fight,
which was literally a week later, I started
huffing and puffing, and he just watched me,
and I literally cried myself to sleep. And
then,
the third time was maybe about 2 weeks
later,
and he just said, whatever you want now,
you will get it.
But, actually, I later got to realize
he only said it so I would keep
my big mouth shut and stop all this
drama.
And,
one thing I realized was he always had
the big picture in mind. He always had,
you know, we're in this for the long
haul. We are gonna work things out. So
I was very
temperamental and,
like, you know, I've shared this that I
use my greatest weapon of mass destruction in
my mouth. I used it a lot with
all the fans,
and I said whatever keeps my mind unfiltered.
And, unfortunately,
it didn't help. He's a ticking time bomb.
I call him undercover ninja, silent killer silent
killer under the radar.
He's he's so much better now.
But at that time, I would just literally
push him to the wall, and then he
snaps, and he is another creature. He is
just another monster, and it was unpleasant fights.
So,
I mean, yes, it took us 6 years
of a roller coaster of emotions,
love, hate, passion, disgust,
you know, disappointment.
And then we had a few happy times,
but it wasn't what we I don't have
time. Yeah. But we didn't see that as
our ideal
relationship. Yeah. And I think the lowest was
when, say, he said he wasn't looking forward
to coming home to me. And I was
just in shock because I was like, but
you're the problem. Can't you look forward to
coming home to me? I was like, what?
You know, it was just
I I I have not done anything wrong.
Like, I'm the perfect one here. Like, hello.
Yeah. Yep. So that was the biggest turning
point for me where I had to literally
put my brakes in our 6th year. And,
again, let me make a point. Because of
the fights, my husband said
early on in fact, before we got married,
he said,
we're gonna take our time to have children
until we finish settling and getting to know
each other. So we deliberately did not bring
a child into this world that didn't ask
to be born,
because we wanted to be very present, deliberate
parents. So,
in that
that those words that he
said, that was when I had to look
in the mirror and start the introspect.
And I think that's literally the turning point.
Yeah. And just to add to the the,
the the point of not bringing a child
because I remember what I went through
with my parents, my father, my mother, my
stepmothers at an early age.
And I grew up really fast,
but it wasn't
they were not happy experiences. Yeah. Yeah. And
I and I felt
that was unfair of them.
Mhmm. They put me in the middle of
that, and I was not going to subject
my child
to that.
So my experience played a big role in
saying, let's wait
to make sure we're okay. We don't bring
a child into this toxic environment
and have them become the lawyer or the
mediator
which I was, which I was. I did
that for quite a while, for more than
5, 6 years.
So I I I grew up really fast,
but that was a good education because then
I knew what I would not want to
have in my life. So that
was was was the teaching.
Yeah.
It's so,
it's always interesting, you know, that there are
those of us who go through unpleasant childhood
experiences.
For some, it they they simply
follow the pattern. Don't they? And then for
others, that's the reason that they don't follow
that pattern and actually choose actively to do
things differently. Absolutely. SubhanAllah.
So I'm hearing, obviously, there was a decision.
It sounds like it was on your side,
Saeed, that,
there's no get out clause.
This is gonna work.
Never never lose sight of the big picture.
Yeah. I knew it was a journey that
I had to play a key role on.
And during the courtship Mhmm.
It became clear to me that I had
to take the lead, but I cannot take
the lead without having the knowledge, the requisite
knowledge to me. Mhmm. So and that's very
critical
for
men and for fathers and mothers
in preparing their sons to become husbands someday.
And also Talk to this one.
Mhmm. Yes.
Even for girls to become mothers, there's that
responsibility
of passing on life lessons. Yes. And that's
that's what we've been able to do with
our kids. But Mhmm. I think we lose
we get we we lose ourselves in search
of the world, in the material world and
forget,
this is a bigger
responsibility than the big house making the mortgage
payments, you know, buying the car, and so
on and so forth. You bring a child
into this world,
you want that child, whether a boy or
a girl, to be assets, not liabilities to
anybody in their lives. Subhanallah.
You know, this reminds me I agree with
you 100%. It reminds me of another one
of my guests who was, talking for the
benefits of having many children. He had a
very he had
had a a very extreme
view on it. But what he said was
a lot of us think that our investments
in the future and our retirement plan is
what our company gives us. Right? It's our
pensions, our state pension. It's this thing. He
said, no. No. No. If you
don't see your children as your retirement
and, you know, your your pension, if you
like, and your true investment, you've lost the
plot
because you're spending all this time, you know,
working for your boss
in order to make you know, in order
to qualify for that pension.
In the meantime, these children, you know, it's
kind of like what you're saying is investing
in them so that, as you say, they
can be an asset instead of a liability
in anyone's life. No. No. Absolutely. I think,
yeah, that it it's about making sure everything
is deliberate. Yeah. Everything is,
you know, you're fully you create a plan
for your marriage. You create a plan for,
parenting
and child upbringing,
because we were very intentional and very deliberate
even when the kids came. Yes. But till
today till today, we're deliberate in our relationship
with one another.
For a moment, we don't blink and take
each other for granted.
You can't do that. He's always checking in
on me at least 5 times a day,
and I say he's he's a serial stalker.
But it's so sweet. It's like part of
our culture. Yep. I will be in the
office, and I'll say,
Saeed hasn't called me, and it's been about
2, 3 hours. And bingo, there, the phone
goes off. Mhmm. Sometimes I'm so busy. I'll
just send him an emoji or just a
quick message or
a dirty message. Yeah.
Yeah. We're gonna talk about that later. Don't
worry.
We're gonna circle back to that. I guess,
I think one question that I have before
we move on because there are a few
things that have, you know, that you've brought
up that I'd love for us to go
into more detail about. But I'm curious to
know,
30 years,
what do you think those 30 years have
taught you about,
a, commitment,
and, b, communication?
I I I was committed
even before the nikkar. Yeah. Yeah.
And and that just kept building and building
and building.
And
I would
argue with her
to raise her level of importance in my
life.
Yeah.
When I saw her Okay. What does that
mean? What does that mean? What does that
mean? I I
I I I've pictured Mariam from the 1st
year that we got married,
that my vision of her is she's gonna
be significant in the world.
Mhmm. When I saw her doing anything that
I thought was beneath
the person that I visualized,
that then the problem will start. I'll say,
no.
You are better than this. Yeah. Wow. You
should talk better than the way you're talking.
You should Mhmm. Eat. Even when she eats,
I had a I had to correct. I
mean,
since that, I went
I went It was Mediom Training Academy right
here.
And I and I just and I was
a stubborn customer,
and and she thinking. Yeah. We're gonna talk
about that, I think. Yes.
And she should never be below me. She
should be at my level or higher. Yeah.
Mhmm. She shouldn't be below me. So whatever
I knew, she needed to know.
So that was in fact, a lot of
our fights was due to my impatience. I
just felt she wasn't learning fast enough. I
wanted to be as good as I am
in everything.
You know, automobile. Believe you mean cars, everything
mechanical, electronics. I mean,
world history. I mean There was a curriculum
involved here. Everything
I was good at, Miriam had to be
good at. That was it.
There were there should be no
superiority between her
and me. Yeah.
And that was what was driving me. Now,
Alhamdulillah, I joke about it. I've been her
teacher for many years and today she teaches
me certain things and that's what I was
looking forward to. It isn't something to be
worried about to have an inferiority complex or
security complex between husband and wife. Yeah. When
you're growing together,
you learn together,
You know? You improve each other constantly. It's
never ending. Never ending. Yeah. To to this
day, it's never ending. And she would correct
me too. She would teach me something. She
will say, you're not doing enough reading on
this matter. You're not doing enough research on
this matter. Mhmm. At times, since they could
be irritating, it can be irritating. But you
know what? At the end of the day,
she's right. So
What you asked for. You got what you
asked for.
Exactly.
So I want to know from you, Mariam,
because I know that there was an age
difference between you guys when you got married.
Right? 12 years. Yeah. 12 years older than
I am. 12 years. Yeah. So he was
obviously significantly
more educated, more experienced, you know, more worldly,
I'm assuming, than you. So part maybe that
was partly why you felt you had to
do some extra work to bring her up,
you know, or to bring that maturity. But
I'm wondering for you, Maniyan, you know, for
your husband to see you that way and
to almost insist that you, you know,
raise your own standards.
Was there resistance inside you,
towards his vision?
How did you feel? Did you feel honored
that he saw you in that way? Did
you feel uplifted, or did you feel like,
leave me alone?
Well, I was a very, very stubborn teenager.
I was very rebellious, and he married me
at 18.
So you can imagine it was just like
Oh, my word.
I think Saeed likes the drama, actually. I
think he wanted the drama. He was like,
you know what? Bring the challenge. Bring the
drama. Let's see. Let's see. Let's see.
She didn't come with an owner's manual. This
is a problem. I don't know
how I I didn't bargain for that. She
was, she was more of a handful than
I ever expected.
And Okay. Yeah. So I want to know
what kind of game you were playing in
the courting period then, Mariam, that he had
no idea that this is what he was
signing up for.
I did the doe eyes and, you know,
the oh. Okay. Now we understand. Okay. We
get it.
Oh, yeah. I'm not kidding you. You really
did that, sister. She's not joking.
Don't do that, sisters. Okay? Just disclaimer, do
not follow this. Not as I do. But
but not not in a negative, bad, nasty
way in a really
fun playful manner. But but,
those first couple of months were really difficult
for me because
she was scared of living daylight out of
me, sister.
Not not even she would scare me. Sometimes
I jump out of my skin, and I
just go sit down alone in the bedroom
asking Allah what I got myself in.
Oh, my word.
I gotta tell you something. Now just to
clarify,
during that courtship period, the good thing is
my family never hid anything from him. That's
why, like, he kept hearing it from my
mom, from my brother, from my dad. Oh.
So Oh. Oh, no. Nobody hid anything about
me being a handful
and stubborn.
My dad told him he and I are
very much alike that, you know, I I
have personality wise Personality wise. Stubbornness
wise. So heavy. Yep.
But Said was like, look at her. How
can you say this about her? Look at
how sweet she is. Look at this wonderful
girl. Why are they talking so badly about
this girl?
When I told them and when the story
started coming out, I said it's too late.
I'm too deep in this. I cannot pull
out. So whatever it is, allow and guide
me to overcome it.
Hello.
Hello. Hello, Belinda. Yeah. Hello. During
and
that's it.
So by the time we did get married
and he had his, you know, kind of
like an agenda, so to speak. Though during
the courtship, he talked to me about it.
He was like, Mariam, you know, you can
be governor. You can be,
the first female governor. Female governor in our
state. You can be this. And I was
like, yeah. Right. You know?
I would I couldn't speak in public. I
couldn't speak in front of 5 people.
So when I was Wow. When I got
married, I was extremely insecure.
But part of all this affirmation
and, you know,
confidence that he had in my abilities,
helped me a lot. I often see my
parents gave me the foundation, but my husband
gave me the wings to fly because he
made me live in this you know, everything
was possible. And he I can always remember.
I still hear the echoes of him saying,
why don't you give it a shot? What
have you got to lose? He just kept
saying that over and over. When I doubt,
I would say, you know, oh, I don't
think I can. He's like, just give it
a shot. What have you got to lose?
And literally, those, what have you got to
lose? And I give it a shot are
part of what, what built me to where
I am today, where I am trying to
help others
be confident and be able to stand on
any world stage because, you know, you've made
yourself an asset.
So I feel indebted to him, and I
know a lot of men
are very critical of people,
like men like Saeed who
are so,
into girl power and so into,
you know,
supporting
their spouses so much. And often, you hear
negative and derogatory comments that come along with
that kind of behavior.
And people like me who are strong girls,
who are very outspoken,
are seen as if we're the dominant ones.
We're the one wearing the pants in the
house. And I'm like, oh, boy, you don't
know our story. Like, I feel indebted to
him. I feel
I couldn't be where I am today if
I didn't have that pillar of support always,
like, you know, I got your back, but
you got this. You know? So it's really
helped. And I always say to men, like,
the man is the head of the household.
He's a degree above us. Allah has said
so.
And but you have to be respect worthy.
You have to earn it. You have to
earn it. You have to be a leader
and then be ready to follow you. I
am strong. I am strong stubborn.
I'm I still am, honestly.
But because I have the utmost respect for
him, I'll go anywhere. I will go anywhere
he wants to go. He I will allow
him to lead me because so far he's
led me to where I couldn't wish for
a better life for myself and for us
and our children. I love Dalila. I wanna
make make a
Yeah. I wanna make a beloved. Yeah. I
wanna make a very important quick point.
Amongst those women that I said my father
married,
none of I think about 3 or 4
of them were very strong women, and they
helped in shaping me to
appreciate
the importance
of a strong woman in a family. Mhmm.
As a kid that grows up to be
a criminal,
didn't create himself. Yeah. And the mistake many
men make the mistake many men make is
not
given the the women
elevating the women to the position they deserve
to be to be strong.
If men continue doing that,
honestly,
when the mother is the first school a
child goes to, when the mother is the
first teacher a child experiences, and then you
weaken the mother. Yeah. And then the child
grows up not respecting his mother because of
how the father treats
the mother.
Mhmm. That's a recipe for disaster
for every community, which means it's a recipe
of for the of this for a recipe
for disaster for the entire world. Yeah. So
men need to wake up regardless of faith,
regardless of nationality,
that the role and position of women needs
to be respected and elevated because they play
a critical role in nation building
for society as a whole. And that is
one thing that informed me about Mariam and
then the children to see. She's a strong
woman,
you know, of of importance
and to be respected and to be treated
accordingly.
I just wanted to say those women
did impact me in that way.
I think it's a I I I love
that you said that because I think it's,
you know, it's it's a it's a refreshing
and much needed perspective
on the whole kind of strong woman trope.
And in fact, everything that you both have
said,
really resonates with me because I know how
common it is for people to see a
woman who is, let's say, visible and capable.
Right?
She's visible. She's capable. She you can see,
you know, she's she's able
to to to do things visibly and do
things well. Right?
People somehow always assume that
she must, like you say, be the strong
one,
be the one in charge, be the dominant
one within her relationship.
And, of course, for a lot of men,
if you say to them a strong woman,
they get this boss babe picture. You know,
somebody who's boss c and wants to order
them around and take control and dominate the
situation. Right? But when you say you're a
strong woman, that's not what you're talking about,
is it? No. No. No. It's it's all
about domin it's all about *.
It it's about having the positive presence
in the lives
of every member of the family, including
the husband.
Mhmm. Because
they can serve to even be
your backbone.
For sure. You and encouraging you and motivating
you
and, you know, and giving you solace because
they're confident. They know they can give you
that support when you need it. But you
don't weaken a woman, and then you go,
you have your troubles outside, and then you
bring them to her, and she doesn't know
what to do because you denied her the
opportunity
Yeah. To the to gain that confidence, to
gain that capacity and that Mhmm. You know?
And support you in the best way. Support
you in the best manner. Yeah. Yeah. So
it ends up actually hurting you. Yeah. Yeah.
In fear of her being strong,
you end up hurting yourself. Yeah.
And I think I cannot imagine. Sorry to
interrupt you. Like, everything that goes on in
our lives, we share with each other. So
so it's something good just happens immediately. If
I'm not with him, he'll call me and
tell me, I do this thing. Like, you're
the first person that comes to mind that
I want to share this with because, you
know, you're my buddy. You know?
You are my confidante. Well, I think you
guys, you've got your best friends, really, aren't
you, mashaAllah?
Absolutely. You know, that's the kind of relationship
that you have and that's the culture, you
know, within your home. And, you know, just
on this topic of, you know, a strong
woman,
I think in today's
world, you know,
we have this idea that if a woman
is strong, you know, the whole strong independent
kind of thing.
It's like, I'm strong. I don't need no
man. And I certainly am not gonna respect
a man and let him tell me what
to do. And I see this even with
the younger Muslim girls coming up. They're kind
of like picking up some of these traits
of strength
when
we're not talking about that strength. We were
talking about something quite different. Do you wanna
just speak on that? Yeah. When I talk
about strong,
strong willed as in I have goals, I
have ambitions,
but they are fully aligned with our family
goals. Yes. I'm not doing any independent
of where we both want to go to,
or that destination. I don't lose sight of
the picture. How does it affect my family?
You know, does it one of one of
the things many people who know me well
know is that I guard my privacy jealously.
I don't share my phone number easily. I
prefer communicate with me via email because I
don't want to lose that
opportunity to when I'm with family, I'm with
family and I'm giving the unseen more priority.
I'm hopeless on social media because
a lot of people will complain, I don't
respond quickly.
You know? Now he's taken over.
He's he's the one who takes my phone
and responds to a lot of people, the
social media messages. Because when I'm in the
office, I'm really, really busy. But when I
come home, I want to leave work behind.
I don't want to do a carryover.
Yes. Sometimes
some things come up, and I just say,
please, I need to go and do this
for about 30 minutes or an hour. And
he knows that as long as I'm in
his presence, I'm not doing something other than
things that concern the 2 of us. Even
if nothing, you know, I'll just maybe
he's we're sitting, maybe watching TV or the
news or whatever. I'll put my head on
his Latinos. I'm with him. You know, we're
together or we just sit side by side
and chat or whatever. Yeah. But we try
to make sure that,
you know, so back to your question about
being a strong woman,
having goals, being driven,
pinpointing, Insha'Allah, my destination, making sure it's aligned
with our big picture, our family goals, and
then
confident in my abilities as well. That's what
I mean by a strong woman.
And then, yes, I could say
I have some I have the ability to
be independent because one thing I love that
Sahid said to me once was, Maria, my
peace of mind is if Allah calls me
home before
you, that you're gonna be okay. The boys
are gonna be okay. And, you know, he
knows my mother equipped me with with so
many so many tools when I was young,
how to change a tire, how to slaughter
a ram. I was slaughtering chickens, pigeons, and
ram. Skin a ram. How to skin around
and, you know, how to cook very well.
Yes. We went camping as kids, so survival
skills with my brother.
We're very into, like, nature, but also, you
know, doing.
I do landscaping.
I do sewing my own clothes. So when
I say I'm a strong woman, like, I
know I am capable.
Like, I don't need a tailor
to do if a tailor It's always a
good thing. Yes. It's always a good thing
to not need a tailor.
You know, I can sew. If you refuse
to sew for me, I'll sew my own.
That's what I mean by I am strong.
And I push
girls, push mothers, push women
to learn as many skills as possible
and be this dam of various skills because
you don't know when they will come in
handy. I never knew when my mom was
teaching me crocheting, knitting,
sewing, how to build a dollhouse, which was
with wood. We cut the we you know,
we got the saw. We got the wood.
We got the new And the nails and
the hammer, We built a dollhouse, and then
we sewed the duvet and the curtains and
everything. I
know. I didn't know that was gonna inspire
me to go into interior decorating,
because I remember the detail we went you
know, the lengths we went into. So all
those seeds,
I realized how important they are. But the
most important thing, I keep trying to push
women to do the same, and you're never
too old to learn all these things.
And God told
technology today and having,
the Internet where we have all everybody teaching
us, and you just pick your teacher, and,
you don't have to leave your bedroom.
So that's what I mean by strong woman,
not
I'm competing
with a man. Never.
That's the last thing I would ever ask
any woman to do. Why? Because I go
by what Allah wants. And Allah has put
him, as long as he's respect worthy, a
degree above me, and I will respect him
for that if he has dignity,
self respect, and he has, you know, a
plan for the family, you know, and he's
really the man of the house. The question
that begs an answer is why wouldn't
I want my why to be strong when
I do not know when my time will
come up?
Why? It's a problem. Why won't?
So I want to leave a weak woman
when I die
to not have the ability and capability to
run the home with the children that I've
left behind. Is that what I want? Yeah.
Wow. Either with the baggage. Is that what
I want? And I love the woman. Deep.
Yeah. I mean, men should take a moment
and think, what is it that you really
want? You know, when you're gonna die?
And let's say you were rich, you know,
powerful,
but she's weak
and knows nothing. And then you die, you
leave her with a lot of money. Okay.
She's going to inherit, but you
never prepared her for that eventuality,
not to have the skills and so on
and so forth. We discuss life and death
quite a bit, you know, and we are
prepared. But then I also want to when
I ask men, okay. Who should be your
best friend?
And on a lighter note, will your best
friend ever see you naked?
That's the question for all the brothers out
there. Ask yourself that question.
SubhanAllah. So I know that you have an
online course, which is a preparing for marriage
course. Is it for women only or for
men and women?
Yes. I,
finally came up with my labor of love.
Took me about 2 years. With the support
of Saeed,
I was able to come up with a
72 video premarital master class.
And this stemmed from our deep concern,
at the rate of divorce and also the
rate
of marriage is just failing.
And people just
some don't end up getting a divorce, but
they suffer
in their homes. And Absolutely. It's toxic. And
then you picture the domino effect with other
children,
and the cycle just keeps repeating itself. We
just keep
recycling garbage.
And so,
we
tried to analyze when we looked at the
root cause of a lot of the cases
we've dealt with when counseling couples. We realized
so much could have been prevented if they
had gotten through or gone through a real,
nonobligamental
course.
Unfortunately, in the Muslim community,
it's not institutionalized. It's not part of.
In some countries, it is. Alhamdulillah,
some countries, but we haven't caught on
across the Muslim world.
So for me, I just felt, you know
what, knowing technology now gives us the luxury
of turning our phones into our classroom
and connecting with the entire world,
at with our fingertips,
I thought, let me come up with an
online master class that gives people the opportunity
to hear the truth, the good, the bad,
and the ugly truth about marriage. And Absolutely.
Yes. It is for both men and women
and what tools they need to have,
all the skills they need to learn before
they get married so that at least by
the time they go in, they have what
it takes to hopefully navigate the obstacles,
but most importantly, make their marriages thrive. Our
our home is they get to where we
are in 30 years Exactly. Much, much faster.
Yes.
Exactly.
Without 6 years of battling
back and forth,
Yes. It is for men and women.
We have a huge
number of participants already.
I've been blessed that
premarital course has been endorsed by a lot
of world renowned scholars. It's Ismael Omidi Bank,
Imam Omar Suleiman.
The sultan here in Nigeria has a short
lived the sultan the Muslim
Yeah. The Muslim leader in Nigeria and a
lot of
Islamic organizations
even around the world. So, alhamdulillah, I feel
very
blessed, and I'm truly honored and humbled that
so many believe this is something that will
hopefully change the narrative.
It's a 7:2 video
online course.
I said it's it's big things. It's definitely.
And I think we will, you know, have
definitely have more conversations about that insha'Allah.
But I'm curious.
Do you believe
that someone can be wife material or husband
material? And if so, what makes you wife
material or husband material?
I would say,
introspection.
Yeah.
Mhmm. Acknowledging
one's vulnerability,
one imperfection.
Recognizing that if you're that way, you are
on a constant
journey of self improvement. Yeah.
That humbles you to make you more understanding,
more compassion, and more forgiving of your spouse.
Mhmm. But once you recognize
you will be on that journey of self
discovery maybe until you die,
and you are ready to accept responsibility
for those mistakes you make and you're not
too quick
to judge others,
you're more willing to give them the benefit
of the doubt.
Once you've embraced that philosophy,
I think it makes you ready. But then
to also understand your dean
and understand the rights and responsibilities
of husbands and wives. Mhmm. And to embrace
that concept
of growing together,
that we will grow together. We will fix
our mistakes together. You know, we will
commend each other when we do something good.
We will encourage one another. We will support
one another.
As an individual, whether male or female,
you start thinking like
that, then Insha'Allah,
there's every likelihood you will attract
some the right kind of person to be
or your your life. But it's starting with
the self.
And to just go into this journey of
self discovery,
trying to
be the better, to aspire to become better
every day. The competition
is, am I better today than I was
yesterday?
And I'm working
to be better tomorrow than I am today.
Once you adopt that philosophy
of always wanting to improve,
then Insha'Allah.
Yeah. Yeah. I think wife or husband material
is someone who is self aware,
who truly gets
the effects of, like, say it said at
the very beginning,
his childhood experiences.
He really became very aware of that and
the impact it had in his life,
how it affected him, and how much he
wanted to make sure that he doesn't recycle
history.
So becoming very self aware is really critical.
Self awareness also helps, you know, your your
strengths and your weaknesses.
And you then have to your husband or
wife material when you are consciously fighting them,
fighting your demons Yes. And also
dealing with your excess baggage Yes. Because that
is another example Sayed gave. Before we got
married, he said, I still have some things
that I want to deal with, which is
part of many reasons why I don't think
we should have kids immediately.
And that was
the anger,
that he had. He had a hot temper,
but he normally is more like a pressure
cooker. You gotta push him to the wall,
then he explodes and it's really nasty. And
I just didn't see people like that growing
up. Like I said, my childhood was really
beautiful. I never saw explosive. Even at home,
I was the one always looking for trouble
on my brother provoking him and everybody's trouble.
I was in everybody's hair, but we never
fought. We never had insults. We didn't have
any form of things that would cause trauma.
It was such a beautiful experience.
Beauty my childhood is filled with picnics,
singing in the rain, and dancing in the
rain Family holidays together. Family holidays together, and
my mother may be cooking or frying an
omelette for supper. And my dad is standing
there, chatting with her or singing, and we're
just dancing. So I have beautiful memories,
but a lot of people don't realize the
impact of what they witnessed or what they
experienced
and how it will manifest itself in the
relationship
with their spouse or their children. So your
wife or husband material,
when you've recognized,
you may not be able to shed all
that load, but you need to know it
and restate it.
And
start working on it and make sure the
person you are courting
is aware of your experiences
so that they know what they're getting into.
Because in my course, I talk about no
surprises. Don't bring something up later on that's
gonna make this person regret.
I know someone who,
it was right after they got married that
she revealed she was raped.
And the guy that lost total interest in
her, didn't want to touch her because he
felt deceived. She never taught him the emotion.
Felt really, really
there was a true violation of trust because
it's like he never saw that coming.
So these are the kind of things, like
I said, yes, we may have unpleasant experiences,
but we need to recognize them
and really respect them, but make sure we
also don't hide them. So that if this
person knows that what they're signing up for,
it makes it so much easier. If they
wanna walk away, it's safer Yeah. That they
know what they're getting into or what they
can deal with. Sister Neema, Maria made a
very, very
powerful point about hiding
one's experience.
And part of the reason why people tend
to hide is they have difficulty
calling a spade a spade.
If one parent or both parents were bad,
that's what they were. Yeah. They were bad.
You don't pretend
they were lovely people
because that means you're you you have unresolved
issues that they manifest themselves when you least
expect it in the marriage.
Parents are not perfect. They're human beings.
They are fallible.
They are fallible. So when they do make
those mistakes,
you pray to Allah to forgive them. But
at the same time, you're seeking Allah's guidance
not to repeat, not to continue the cycle.
But I'm not saying hate parents. Accept, acknowledge
that they were fallible. And and what they
did hurt. Yeah. Potentially even damaged you. Yeah.
Mhmm. But Mhmm. When I talked about being
self aware, now you're an adult. You say,
okay. This is what this did to me.
How do I get over this? And how
do I find it in my heart to
forgive them and ask Allah to forgive them
also
as I heal. And,
as I heal,
that would give me the power to also
help others who've been through what I've been
through and help them heal also.
Exactly. And also not allow that pattern to
continue within your own family. I found it
really interesting when you said
that although your father
well, you were at the butt of the
jokes, I guess, when the wives were not
happy with with your dad.
Yeah.
I found it very interesting when you said
that although you could see that your father
maybe had dropped the ball at home, you
know, and that the women in his life
were not happy with him and, you know,
they thus teased you,
you still were able to sort of separate
your love for him
with the fact of his behavior in this
arena. And it's so interesting, isn't it, how
individuals can be different people
to, you know, that that one person
to you as the son, maybe he was
he loved you. You loved him. There was
so much respect between you, but between him
and maybe wife number 2,
it was a different story, but it's still
the same man.
Yes.
Yeah. Yes. It it it's it's one of
those,
I say, dichotomies of nature, complexities of nature,
so to speak, where,
like you said,
one person means something
Yeah. To one person, and that same person
means something totally different to another. Yeah. And
you you have to find it in your
heart to respect their feeling. I couldn't fight,
my stepmothers
based on how they felt towards him. That's
their right. That's their experience.
But and and I couldn't judge them based
on that. Yeah. But I know what he
meant and still means to me.
And he was
one has to accept that
and Mariam uses this terminology a lot. You
cannot give what you don't have.
Mhmm.
And he knew what I needed, and he
gave it to me. Mhmm. But if we
were to go back to his childhood
and see how he grew up,
he never experienced
what was necessary for those women to feel
he's giving them something. So if he never
had it
and he wasn't self aware,
he will never give it, sister sister Naveen.
Yeah. Yeah. No. 100%. It's like we we
have this, you know, just as you're saying,
this expectation that people will fill our cup.
But I remember reading,
you know, a quote about, you know, never
ask somebody
with, let's say, a 100 milliliter cup to
fill your 1 liter jug
because people can only give what they have
to give.
Absolutely.
Absolutely. And that's what you see. Forgiveness.
Yeah. This is the forgiveness and the empathy,
isn't it? And the understanding.
Do you think that that's helpful within marriage
when you kind of are able to
to come to terms with the fact that
this particular thing that I want,
maybe my partner doesn't have it to give
because of whatever it is, their own childhood
or where they are on their journey. What
do you think about that? There's a hadith.
Rasoula Salir Sam saying you may you may
dislike your wife for one thing.
But when you look at her, she is
valuable in other areas.
So it's actually
there,
you know, for Muslims to to
reflect upon.
So if she is,
you know, weak in certain areas,
you just say but if I look at
80%,
85%
of the other things, she's very good. Mhmm.
And can I give her that support? Can
I fill in the gap? Can I
yeah? You have to do that. I wanted
to add. I I think your question is
almost like a double edged sword.
I agree with,
making excuses.
Absolutely. And he and I talk about that
a lot because I remember, you know,
I would say, but I make excuses because
I understand
what you're going through. I know your background.
Yeah. And so in my mind, when I
see a certain behavior or pattern,
I can quickly connect the dots, and Yeah.
I acknowledge. However,
if it's making me uncomfortable,
he respects the fact that I'm not comfortable,
and he needs to fix it.
So that
embracing
personal evolution,
embracing
I am so far from perfect
has helped us a lot. And not being
so set in our ways that we aren't
willing to
listen
and learn and grow and synergize
and be the best because, like, he keeps
saying, I'm so forgiving. And I know he's
not very forgiving.
That's because his experiences
have
made him you know, he's gone through betrayal.
He's gone through literally
stabbed in the back by family members. He's
the eldest of 26 kids. So you could
imagine
that I didn't know you were the eldest.
Wow. You were the first.
Share a polygamous home. Then picture
the extended families,
the uncles, the aunts. You know? Of all
the wives as well.
Yes. And not just the one, but all
the in laws on all the sides. Wow.
Exactly. It's a labyrinth of literally a, you
know, a disaster if you're not careful.
So,
for me, I think just to make my
point, it's that,
yes,
recognize,
make excuses, but talk about it, especially if
you're not comfortable. Yeah. Because I keep emphasizing
we're not meant to suffer in marriage. We're
not meant to sacrifice ourselves and just say,
oh, no. That's how he is. That's how
he is. That's how he is. I love
that you said that because another conversation that
I had, this situation came up of, you
know, a person who for example, the example
was,
you see in the street a husband and
wife and the wife is going at it.
You know, she's shouting, she's losing her mind.
You know, she's really being, you know,
behaving badly.
And the, the husband chooses to walk away.
He chooses to disengage and walk away.
And this particular guest was talking about the
power of framing your own behavior. Right? Because
he was saying, you know, if that man
walks away
and in his in his mind,
the reason he did that was to avoid
a confrontation and avoid escalating, he's gonna feel
pretty good about himself because he feels like,
you know, I was the better person. I
did the right thing. I followed the hadith.
If that husband has,
the frame that in his mind he ran
away or he ran away or he he
he disengaged because he couldn't face her, you
know, because he didn't wanna go there with
her and he didn't wanna have a confrontation
with her. He might not feel so great
about himself you know when he gets home
he might feel a bit emasculated. He may
feel a bit weak. So he was talking
about the importance of framing. But when he
told that story, I I understood where he
was coming from. But
to your point, Maryann,
for me,
the important thing would have been to make
sure that you talk about it afterwards.
Because even if the higher the high road
was to walk away,
that is not an acceptable situation.
Right? So even if you chose not to,
you know,
shut it down right there,
I do feel it was something that you
shouldn't let slide and that you should circle
back to communicate.
So
remind me of what you said. Yeah. There
there there's something Mariam and I would do.
If
there's ever a situation like that, when we
get back home, it's to say what led
to that Mhmm. Situation.
Mhmm. So there's a cause and effect. So
what was the cause that frustrated Mariam to
the extent Mhmm. That she would use it
in public? Mhmm. So that would be our
conversation.
So what did I do wrong
that led you to get so frustrated
to react like this? Mhmm. Let's make sure
that doesn't happen again. So what do I
need to do to make sure that does
not happen again?
So it never should get to that level
where we have those exchanges in public.
So but if it does happen, we're like,
okay. You know? That shouldn't happen. What did
I do wrong? What made you so upset?
Yeah.
We got into the habit of, instant feedback
over the years.
Mhmm. So I didn't mention this earlier. Like,
the turning point for us, alhamdulillah,
after the 6 years was when I said
to you that, you know, he said he
didn't look forward to coming back to me,
and I thought, but you're the problem. But
when I started to say, okay,
he's saying he's not looking forward to coming
back to me. So what on earth am
I doing wrong? Let me hear. Let me,
for once, keep my big mouth shut and
listen. So I sat him down, and I
had said, Saeed,
I want to talk whenever it's okay. So
I just left him when he was I
think it took about 3 days, then he
sat down and she said, okay. Come. What
is it you want to talk about? I
said, I just want you to give me
feedback. What is it about me that I'm
doing that you don't like that's irritating you,
that's causing these fights?
What is it about me that you like
that you want me to continue?
What is it about me that what would
you like me to start doing that I'm
not doing at all? You know? And how
can I make you happier?
And,
he, alhamdulillah,
had the humility because really it was very
hard, very unpleasant,
to hear the truth about yourself.
And he can be very brutally honest. And
I did say, be merciful in your choice
of words, but be tell me the truth.
Yeah. Say it as it is. I don't
want you to soft pedal this thing I
really want to know. Then he asked me
to do the same for him, and
it just changed everything. It's not meant to
be one way. And that was when we
really started to have a two way street.
You know, it was about mutual input and.
So it took a while.
I told him to be patient with me.
A lot of the things I've been doing
have been ingrained in me over such a
long
period. However,
just give me a signal. So, like, when
I talk too much, if we're in public,
you know, there's a thing he does with
his hands by his side. So I'll break
my hands, but kinda like, oh, put your
foot on the brake, will you, girl?
He's like that.
And or sometimes he would just, you know,
dim his eyes a bit. Again, that's a
signal, k. It's time to go. And then
he sometimes
Short ear.
When communication
became much better, as we leap somewhere and
we sit in the car, like, did I
do anything wrong? Did I say anything? And
or he will ask me even now. Today,
he would ask me, you know, was there
anything that was out of line?
I love that we are so free today
that we can give people we can and
that's why I told you at the beginning,
never for a moment do we take each
other for granted, or do we take the
relationship for granted.
There's constant
you know, trying to really sharpen our saw
and make sure we're always winning our a
game. And and, sister Naima,
people, husbands and wives, should always, always look
towards
their spouse being the best they can possibly
be. Yeah. That never ever ends. Constant improvement,
constant need for the feedback. It doesn't matter
how good I am in whatever it is
I'm doing. I come back and I ask
her, how was that? Was that good enough?
Was that that investment?
Once you embrace that spirit of complete and
total humility
And towards to and exact exactly. To yours
towards your trust that's there. Yes. And it's
reciprocated.
Yeah. Exactly. This is it. Yes. Is it.
Yes. Yeah. Or may I ask a question?
Let me ask a controversial question then. Okay.
So let's imagine that it's not our lovely
miss Mariam here, but maybe a colder woman.
No. A woman who
had much more pride, who
really did not see that she had any
room for improvement,
you know, was not loving and kind and
respectful and, you know, all the things that,
mashaAllah, make it easy.
Would you still feel that it's safe to
be sort of the way that you are
sort of humble and asking for feedback and,
you know, checking that everything's okay?
Do you think that yeah.
When I when I tell the story, people
find this amazing that I started telling Murriem
about her rights and responsibilities
during courtship.
Mhmm. And after we got married and she
she was she was, instead, as a poor
reader, she doesn't like reading.
And,
and I I tried
I started reading those books as bedtime stories
to my wife.
Yes. And at the beginning, she will block
her ears. She would actually pull up her
ears. She she
she
This 18 year old girl, she's like, oh
god. Seriously?
She You're gonna be Steven Covey before I
go to sleep. What? That's right.
She wouldn't she didn't wanna hear it.
And I never stopped.
I continued.
And then one day, she just said, can
you come and tuck me in and read
me in the books? I was like, oh
my god. Because I was I was going
to Allah, like, Allah help me. I don't
know what to do. Surprise. And then she
she started asking me to. Yeah. And then
it became regular. Then she started
reading the books herself. Then she started writing.
You know? Then she started reading didn't answer
her question. What would you do if you
had a monster of a wife? You were
a monster then?
And here I am today. Yes. But you
were but okay. Fair enough. But you were
not What if I didn't change? What if
I didn't respond? What if I if I
didn't rise up? I stayed stuck in mud.
What would you have done?
I would have
educated,
informed I won't be taught No. No. I'm
coming. I'm I'm not. No way.
Am
I teachable?
I would have I would've
using the scripts of the the holy Quran,
using the hadith,
the ramifications
of that behavior, I would have made it
a point. It gone
I I was not
okay. I would have explained the ramifications of
that behavior and the possible
consequences of it, which could potentially lead to
the dissolution of the marriage.
I would have made it abundantly clear if
you don't make an effort.
Because
someone to have that kind of attitude
is an indication of their pride.
And what Sunless Alaw Salem says, anybody with
a mustard seed size of pride will not
enter Jannah.
Quadrif would have that mentality. You say, hold
on. Not for my sake. Mhmm. Not for
my sake, but for your sake. You
need to work on changing that because it
could cost you
gender. And I would have discharged my responsibility
as a husband because I've made all the
efforts. I've told her about the consequences
and what ramifications
could be. So my issue is as long
as between me and Allah, and then every
possible
thing I could possibly do to make her
change and she refuses.
And if I walk away,
I wouldn't be in Allah's bad books.
Subhanallah.
Yes. I want to say something, and I
want to just add to what he said.
That, yes, he's making an he's more knowledgeable
about the faith. This is just any scenario
out there there where the husband is more
knowledgeable about the faith. But I also want
to emphasize
the method is important.
Yes. The method of trying to get me
out of or enlighten me is really important.
Yes. If in any way there is any
kind of spiritual superiority
or comp
superiority of any kind, intellectual superiority,
it's a big turn off. For me as
a student, if I smell
I'm better than you, I will not listen
to you. I've always had that about me.
You know, the most humble teachers, the most
simple teachers,
ABC teachers have been the ones I've been
drawn to. So if I had a husband
who imposed,
to be very honest, it's gonna be hard
for me to want to do it from
the bottom of my heart.
This is this is it. It reminds me
of the hadith about the woman,
is from the bench rib, and if you
try to straighten it, you'll break it. But
I want to ask you, Mariam.
That turning point that you that you reached,
what made you
want his approval at last? What made you,
really, let's call it what it is, humble
yourself and and acknowledge that
I want him to come home. I want
him to want to come home to me.
And because I want that, I'm I'm actually
prepared to, to, to be vulnerable enough to
say, tell me what I'm doing wrong. Tell
me when you like what I'm doing.
Show me the way to please you or
to make the situation better. What got you
to that point?
I think,
be having to eat humble pie, that for
once somebody's actually saying no.
I don't even want to come to you,
and you thought you were a bag of
chips. You know, you I was like, you
know, I thought I was like it. You
know?
The best thing since sliced bread and you
dare to say you don't wanna come home
to this.
I'm just kidding. It wasn't that bad. But,
yeah, I think it was more I felt
so
hurt that,
you know, maybe he didn't find me attractive.
Maybe
and I know I put in a lot
of efforts to look attractive,
but if my character wasn't attractive,
it would be a big turn off. And
he made that clear that it was my
character
that chased him away, that made him
prefer to stay out.
So I needed to do literally an overhaul.
I needed to take a scouring
pad and polish my knifes and polish my
heart
and
become less selfish
and less focused on my needs being met
first and pointing fingers.
And,
I and accept,
you know, and accept that, really,
yes, it would be I uh-huh. I remember
another thing. I remember the man I fell
in love with, and he was no longer
there.
Oh. He was no longer in the relationship.
And I was like, okay, if he's not
looking forward to coming home to me and
then I was doing the introspect, like, okay.
So where did the man I married,
I fell in love with go?
He's not he I may have chased him
away based on what he's saying. Now I
need to find him and bring him back,
and I need you to start with me.
And
by the time
I did start reading books on effective communication,
I started reading books on self awareness, attending
short courses,
and listening
to anything related to that emotional intelligence.
It just totally changed things. And I found
myself,
you know, I found him looking forward to
coming home to me. He started calling me.
He started trusting me again and sharing
deep into the things that he had suddenly
stopped doing for years.
He started opening up again. And, it now
started to feel good. I think that we
need to let Cecilieva know why I shut
down, and I will
yeah. Because I would confide in her and
some very personal
experiences.
Infill from his childhood.
And when she got mad, when we fought
and she got mad,
Wow. That weapon of of mass destruction.
Everything I told her just peed back at
me with full force. They're like, oh my
goodness. I told you that at the most
certain most intimate moment, and you're using it.
Yeah. Whatever moments, and you're using this against
me. But I think one of the the
question you asked, and I think at the
back of it that made her
reach out is
she knew
my
feelings towards,
She knew I really, really cared, and I
wanted
I wanted to elevate it as much as
I could. And I think in recognizing that,
and then the same person who cares so
much, Sally, isn't isn't looking forward to coming
home. She's like, I can't I can't afford
to lose that person. So what do I
need to do? Yeah. Because
once a partner proves how much they care,
whether the wife or the husband. Yeah.
I'm begging people out there. Don't take them
for granted. Yeah. If they care, if they've
proven to you,
stop looking for the force.
Yeah. You start helping them overcome their weaknesses,
but not in cap not on on capitalizing
on them. So when a person cares and
they go the extra mile, they, you know,
prepare this,
you know, dates, birthdays, I'm terrible with that.
You know, anniversaries,
I got caught many times. You know what?
She she will forgive knowing that it's not
intentional,
and she wouldn't get upset over it knowing
all the other things that I'm doing.
And she goes the extra mile. I mean,
she thinks for me if I if she
was if she's gonna travel
for days
and I'll be alone,
she will tell the maids throughout those days
to cook
my favorite meals. She tells them what to
do. Now when a wife goes to that
extent where she's away, where she say, make
sure my husband's breakfast,
lunch, dinner,
his favorite meals. Make sure you do this
and this and this and this. And the
husband knows this is all my wife's doing.
I mean, for goodness' sake, what else can
you do?
But love the swimmer and give as much
as you can. And so the men do
their part. The women do their part.
The key thing is just to be in
love,
in peace, and in harmony. That's the objective.
And if everybody is pursuing that objective,
why wouldn't marriages work?
Yeah. I think the word Said used is
something, you know, I love you and I'm
in love with you. This is a term
I can use comfortably today. I love meaning
I care for you. I'll I got your
back. I'll look out for your best interest,
But I'm in love with you. I look
forward to you coming home to me,
because I love your character. I love the
beauty of your soul,
And your company is so,
it just I will never use the word
completes me, but compliments me so well. You're
that piece of the puzzle
that just seems to fit. You're just what
I needed. Just what the doctor ordered. I
love it.
I have a question. Yes.
I have a question on this point And
it's 6
We've gone
So I have a question on this because
I know,
you know, we all grew up
watching Disney,
listening to the love songs, watching the movies,
and the the romance, and the Hollywood vision
of relationships and love, etcetera.
So, you know, the interesting thing about you
2 is that when we see you together
and we hear you talking to each other,
it looks like a fairy tale romance.
But I think what I would like viewers
to also see, which is almost more important,
is that
firstly, it wasn't always like this Oh, no.
And it didn't come for free,
you know.
And and in fact, if anybody had caught
you within those 1st 6 years, it would
have been a nightmare on Elm Street.
Right? More than, you know, more than Romeo
not not Romeo, but you know, no more
than any romance, it would have been a
horror show. Right?
So I guess my first question is
do you feel that our expectations
for love and marriage have been
have been damaged by
Disney and the songs, etcetera, or do you
find that they've been helpful in some way
to kind of give us something to aspire
to?
I I personally
do believe love stories will exist because I
saw it in my parents,
and that was 50 years. And then I
believe you build your you create your love
story. I like that. Just don't ever compare.
The worst thing we do is to compare.
So don't compare it
to Romeo and Juliet or any Disney Romeo
and Juliet is not even a love story.
It doesn't even come to me, to be
honest. There's no happily ever after. Like, what's
going on? So,
you know, but I just I believe
I am living my best love story. I
could never have read this in any book.
I could and I think the biggest concern
I have is what social media and this
reality TV world has done,
that we are in today because it causes
you it creates this voyeurism. You wanna know
what the others are doing. And then sometimes
you want to borrow that, and it's not
gonna work for you. Or you kind of
look at your relationship and say, well, you
know, that's what I've got. Yeah. That comparison
It creates discontentment.
So I I believe
do
have confidence that there is love.
You and,
beautiful love story, just create your own
based on the things you do together, what
your vision is, what the big picture is
for your marriage, and, you'll be able to
attain it,
Because we seem to be, you know, bubbly
and laugh a lot and we joke a
lot, we really do laugh until we fall
off the bed till today, we do. Almost,
I think, hardly
a day goes by that we don't have
a painful belly laugh where we just are
rolling.
Is, like, I think, the biggest thing in
this relationship
after Allah,
first.
But I would say
we still quarrel to he came and joined
me. I was on a trip, so he
came and joined me yesterday.
The day before, we were chatting on the
phone, and I was narrating a story to
him, and he immediately
annoyed me in how he took over the
conversation, and I just kept saying, I don't
believe this. And he could hear me whispering
on the phone. It was a video. I
was just like, how could he take over
and enter my brain and start completing the
story that he didn't even make? I had
a long day. I had a long No.
Wait. I gotta tell her. So what happened?
I just laid there in the bed listening
to him and just I kept saying, I
don't believe this. I said, okay. Can I
please finish telling you what exactly happened? Because
you fast forwarded to what I should have
done. He said, I was being a Martian,
wasn't I? You know being a Martian. That's
Martian behavior right there.
Oh, yeah. Wow. Yeah. He said, I'm being
a Martian, aren't I? I said, yes. And
I said, this Venusian is very angry right
now.
Then he said
he said,
I can you're pouting, aren't you? I said,
yes. And that just made me start laughing.
Well, like, just before that, I was angry.
I was really angry with him. Do we
still have these emotions? Yes.
Analyzed and read each other and evidence each
other. I know his triggers.
He knows my triggers,
and he knows
The thing with him, you know, these Martians
are very analytical and, like, this is the
third point. And
we, like, want to, you know, make you
picture you literally in it. Yes. Yes. So
he's still that way, and he has understood
that I prefer to give the nitty gritty.
And
so I tried to reduce the length of
the story I'm still working on it. I'm
still working on it. My time. My time.
And I've worked in progress. My time, guys.
My time. We'll get there. We'll get there.
This this reminds me. I've I've I know
of another,
couple within, you know, within our circle
who very much like you got married
and had a lot of difficulties.
Maybe not right off the bat, but so
let's say the messy middle,
really tough to the point where it was
like, what are you guys doing? You know,
this is, this is just torture for all
parties. You know, this is, this is a
disaster.
And, you know, they decided to persevere, mashallah,
and now
they they've, they've, they've, they got over the
hump. I think that's what I wanna say.
They got over the hump. So again again,
I do think this is just my personal
opinion, which I keep inserting everywhere, but I
think that
what we are told is the normal way
that relationships go in the media, social media,
you know, popular culture, etcetera,
I think is not helpful.
Not that it can never happen,
but it's not helpful because it makes you
think that that's how it always is and
that there is a happily ever after at
the wedding, Right? Where really what we know
is that this is a journey,
and, you know, everyone's journey, you know, might
look quite different. But I think what your
story shows and, certainly, what the other stories
that I'm thinking of show
is that if you've made a commitment
and I keep using this word guys, and
everybody who's watching these has been watching these
conversations, you'll hear this word coming up again
and again and again
from imams, from therapists, from counselors, from married
couples.
It's about the, the, the commitment is what
makes the difference.
It's not even, you know, the feels or
how cute you are together, which of course
you are, masha'Allah.
You know, it's not about the in laws.
It's not about anyone else. It's the commitment.
Are you committed to making it work?
Because if you are committed to making it
work, then you could actually go through 6
years of, you know, pretty yucky stuff.
Get over that hump
and find each other again, subhanAllah.
Yeah. And we never we never stopped praying
to Allah to show us the way to
guide us.
And one thing I would like parents or
husbands and wives never to forget is if
you commit, you make the effort, you put
in the time, you know, and the sweat.
Wallahi,
you don't only have I mean, end up
with a happy marriage.
You give your children the tools to have
happy marriages themselves. Mhmm. So the benefit
keeps it it has a ripple effect. Yeah.
And, hopefully, your children will pass that on
to their grandchildren. So wherever you are see.
Wherever you are, you're getting that reward that
from that behavior, that relationship that you created,
that environment, that culture
that is unique to you, you've passed on
to your children. They've passed on to their
children, who've passed on to their children. Exactly.
The reward is endless. Yeah. And I think,
this thing about being deliberate, having the right
mindset
and being committed, I think those three words
are so important. You know? Having an amen
for life mindset.
The big picture. The big picture. Being so
deliberate, whether it's as a couple, whether it
is being so intentional. You know, in every
effort you put in, you are conscious of
why you're doing this and what you're hoping
to achieve.
And even in parenting, the same thing. Like,
we were deliberate in making sure our children
not only
saw
what a relationship is meant to look like,
but we also gave them the good, the
bad, and the ugly truths about it. It
looked like I went in with the unrealistic
expectations. I didn't want to recycle that. So
we talk about,
they've never seen us fight, but we tell
them we fight. We have misunderstandings.
But because
we care so much, we we we fight
to make it work.
And they're aware of that. And they talk
about how eager they are to get married.
Our oldest son called him
a few months ago, yeah, a couple of
months ago, to just say thank you for
raising me to Respect women. Respect women and
treat them well with dignity. And
he couldn't have
seen
that with you know, he couldn't see that
without having seen it being done,
and watching his father not just say it,
but do it. You know?
We raised the boys to pick up after
themselves,
and cook. Both of them are amazing cooks.
And to know we raised them, telling them
from a young age, if you don't learn
to cook, you're not gonna find a wife
who's gonna marry you. You're gonna have to
go to the village, you know, to, you
know, like that. So unlike the way we
raise our daughters today, if you don't learn
to cook, you're not gonna get a husband.
We did that with the boys.
You know? If you don't pick up after
yourself. You no woman is gonna wanna marry
a slob. And they hear that growing up
about, you know, it's the flip side of
what we girls have been taught all our
lives. And today, they they wash the toilets
on their own. They pick up after themselves.
They wash their clothes, iron. They do not
expect a woman to do that for them.
Even in the house, we've got 2 househelps.
They're female. But they take their plates themselves.
You know? They clear the table. They clean
their rooms and so on. So these are
the things that it's all about being deliberate
conscious,
intentional in every aspect,
and having the mindset
and, you know, keeping keep your eye on
the target. And and never forgetting words, to
name a set, the legacy. The legacy. The
legacy. Exactly. Never forgetting the legacy. And we're
always passing on the baton to the next
generation. Yeah. So what are you doing? I
always ask couples when I do my
parenting course,
are you okay with your children replicating
in their homes with their spouse and their
children exactly
what they are seeing right now?
Many of you will tell me. Wow. Yeah.
Are you okay with that? No.
And that's it because we could be called
if I passed away today, well, this unit,
you know, what we have today is over.
You'll have to start all over or vice
versa. So what did our children witness up
until that point? Are we okay with that?
You know, I often think about it because
he and I travel a lot. And I
picture, okay, if Allah calls us both home
today,
are we fine with what we've taught them?
Are we okay going before our maker
and saying whether we feel we've handed on
the bat passed on the bat in the
right way?
And are they ready? And, I
think,
you know, we know
the Inshallah, they will be okay. They understand
where their weaknesses are, and they understand they
are also a work in progress. Now once
you know that Yes.
And I love the fact that, like, we
raise the boys to be very expressive because
he's expressive.
He talks. He if he's sad, he says
it. You know? He doesn't the boys don't
cry thing. No. I see him cry, and
they see me comfort their dad. So they
know vulnerabilities.
Healthy.
You know? It's good for your health to
open up and see what's going on in
your guts. So I love that the boys
learned that from the man in their life,
that it's fine
to express how you feel. It's not a
weakness. It's not a weakness. I know.
You develop a habit. You become dependent whether
I become addiction or whatever because you want
to be tough. You want to be macho.
And then sometimes we take our frustrations out
on our loved ones.
Exactly. Because we're not able to deal with
those frustrations. So and we're teaching them that's
not the way to go. Express, seek support,
heal,
and don't take your frustrations out on your
loved ones. Yeah. I mean I mean,
well, guys, it's been an absolute pleasure spending
this time with you and, you know, just
soaking up your good vibes, learning from your
wisdom, you know, just enjoying you, to be
honest.
And of course, we Allah we ask Allah
Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala to bless you and your
family and bless the work that you're doing.
And hopefully, we will have another one of
these chats very, very soon.
Tell our viewers where they can
catch up with you and where they can
follow you.
Well, I just want to say, sister Naima,
you know, I love you to bits. May
Allah bless you
for everything you are doing. You are a
gift to all of us. I mean that
from the bottom of my heart.
May Allah continue
to increase you in your knowledge and continue
to shine your light brightly for the world.
May this thing you're doing be a witness
for you, Inshallah, and a light to come.
Just like you love, Byron, for having us.
I'm the one who's more on social media.
He's undercover ninja on social
he's
in the DMs, guys. If you DM sister
Mariam, it's brother Syed who's gonna be responding.
So
So I'm, on Instagram. I'm Mariam Lemu official.
That's maryamlemu
official. And on Facebook, Mariamlemu.
YouTube, Mariamlemu.
And,
if you want to enroll in my premarital
master class, just go to my website, www.mariamlemu.com,
and you will see the video there. Just
click on the link and
enroll. I wish you the very best on
that journey.
Thank you so much. It's an aim. It's
been a pleasure every time. Every time. Thank
you so much. Thank you. Inshallah, again and
again.