Naima B. Robert – Advice to Muslim women about sex, desire and unrealistic expectations The Village Auntie
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Welcome to another marriage conversation
with Naima B. Robert and I am, you
can probably tell, so stoked
for my guest today because it is one
of my favorite aunties,
in the dunya
and it is none other than Angelica
Lindsay Ali, who is
very affectionately known
on these in these streets as the village
auntie. And,
I am just so thrilled to have her
here for one of our intimacy conversations.
It's about to get real, people.
Sis. Thank you so much for being here.
Thank you for having me. I'm excited.
I'm just always smiling whenever we get to
talk. And
we've we've had the opportunity to kind of
be in this space several times.
So I knew I couldn't have one of
these conversations without you,
and without just hearing from you, getting
touching in with your areas of expertise and
your wisdom. So
one of the things that I wanted us
to have a chat about was the concepts
of femininity and sexuality.
We don't talk about it a lot, do
we? In general
and in the Muslim community, it's like you're
supposed to know that stuff. Like, you don't
need to talk about it. You don't need
to be taught it. You know? And yet
we've got all these
images coming at us of what femininity is
and what sexuality looks like.
And there's almost,
well, do I need to be like that
in order to be feminine? Do I need
to look like that, act like that in
order to be sexy? What what are you
seeing happening with the concepts of femininity and
sexuality right now?
You know, it's interesting
because on social media I watch YouTube a
lot. I'm a YouTuber. Like, I don't have
a YouTube channel, but I would rather watch
YouTube than regular television or cable
because it sort of keeps you abreast of
what's happening. And I've noticed over the last
sort of 18 months, femininity coaches,
femininity
mindset
healers, and they all sort of look alike.
Mhmm. And they all have the same conversation.
It's it's it's appealing to an ideal of
beauty and femininity that definitely is derived from
a white European
image.
And, you know, if you're a white European,
that's great.
But what about the rest of us? Yeah.
And and most of the women that I've
come across that have been teaching femininity from
this this standpoint
are women of color. They're black women. They're
young women. Interesting, isn't it? Yeah. Yes.
They're they're promoting a a form of performative
femininity
that says you have to speak softly,
you have to sit on the edge of
your chair, you have to wear high heels,
you have to wear lipstick, your nails have
to be a certain way. And that's great,
but it's very surface level, and it also
does not account for the nuanced ways in
which
femininity shows up in global cultures.
Mhmm. Right? So femininity
is okay. It is a pair of 5
inch So Kate's,
Louis Vuitton shoes. Right? It is like eyelashes
out to here. But it's also
you know?
You know, for some women and and that's
for you? Okay. Fine. But femininity is also
a black bish abaya and a niqab. Right?
It's also hennaed hands and feet.
It is the swish of a bazang gram
boo boo as you're walking through the marketplace.
Where does it account for all of the
expressions of femininity that our grandmothers, that our
foremothers had.
But I think,
you know, when when you couple that with
the conversation around sexuality,
it means that women are always performing to
fulfill a role. 100%. Yeah. Like, what can
I do to show role? 100%.
Yeah. Like, what can I do to show
you
how well I can cook, how beautiful I
am, you know, how soft I can be,
how supportive I can be so that you
can choose me, so that then you can
make me your wife so that then I
can please you? Everything is outward. It's it's
output.
Very little of it from what I've seen
has been focused on internal development and self
reflection.
So then when you have this idea of
femininity as being something that you are rewarding
someone else with your presence,
when it comes to sexuality,
then you just become a receptacle for someone
else's pleasure.
Right.
You're not an active participant in it. Mhmm.
So it limits us in terms of the
way that we look at sexuality because then,
you know, we shift into these extremes of
your body has to look a certain way
in order to be sexy.
Your your hip to waist ratio has to
be so you have people who literally have
comical figures.
Like, they literally
look like they come out of like a
comic book with photoshop and filters, and they're
manipulating their bodies to look a certain way.
Body dysmorphia has never been, you know, so
rampant.
And all of that is linked into our
our limitations when we talk about femininity and
sexuality. So I think for for women, the
conversation
has to start in the home, and even
in the masjid. Right? The masjid by my
house, we have Bengali sisters. We have Sudanese
sisters. We have Somali sisters. I think I'm
one of the only African Americans, and each
each group has different models of what femininity
looks like.
Each group, they are sexy in their own
ways. Right? Because you go to sisters' parties
and you see sisters.
We we need We know what lies out.
Right? We know what lies beneath. Right?
So we I I think I think we
we owe ourselves as women and also to
our daughters and our granddaughters and our nieces
and our cousins and our little sisters. We
owe them a more multifaceted approach to femininity,
and then that
will
seep into our conversations about sexuality because we
we are limiting ourselves as Muslims, and we
come from a very expansive tradition in both
regards.
Right.
You know, as you're saying this, I'm thinking
of so many of the other conversations that
we've had,
already in this this kind of intimacy area.
And one of the things that keeps coming
up in every conversation is *.
And I can't help
wondering how much of our own idea of
what is sexy, as you said,
is is from the movies, is from music
videos, is from, you know, is is is
from *.
And even when you said performative femininity,
I'm thinking of the performative
sexiness that we feel
in order to be sexy, I must dress
a particular way, I must talk a particular
way, I must act in a particular way.
And this is like no shade to those
of you who if that's your thing, that's
your thing. You know? This is a no
judgment zone.
But what about those sisters who feel that
that doesn't it's not who they are,
but they feel they need to perform that
in order to be sexy. I mean, can
you be sexy without
garters and a corset?
Absolutely.
You absolutely
can be sexy. In fact,
you know, my work is expanding now where
I'm opening up
my myself and my expertise to talking to
men more when I first started on social
media. And I started in this work in
1998.
And I've always worked with men in community,
but on social media, it can be a
mixed bag. Right? So I had to really
establish a firm boundary when talking about *
and sexuality, because I didn't want to sexualize
myself. I did not want to become the
object of someone's misplaced
attraction. Oh, yeah.
But now that I've opened myself up in
talking with men, you will really be surprised
at what men find sexy versus what society
tells us that men find sexy. Look at
that. Talk to it, girl. What they saying?
What they
telling
you? We will be happy. We will be
happy. I have a nephew.
He's married.
He is,
of West African origin.
And
I you know, in the summertime, I usually
wear mofas, a tobe. You know, it's a
very Yeah. Loose flowing, all covering like, everything's
covered.
And he was talking about how the men
from his culture find that such a sexy
garment.
And I was like, talk to me about
this. Like, talk to me about this. He
said he said it
and another another, of my nieces, you know,
these are my village nieces and nephews, she
said that an artist came to do a
workshop one day and he said,
when you shroud a thing,
you reveal its beauty.
Mhmm. So when you cover something, you reveal
the essence of its beauty. And this is
this is what my nephew was saying. He
said there's something beautiful about a woman who
can wear a garment like that, and it
exudes the confidence and the sexiness that comes
from inside.
Because to be a sexy person is not
the garter belts and the high heeled shoes
and the lingerie and the push up bras.
It is exuding a seductive
confidence.
It's a level of comportment
and that comes across when you're wearing you
you can be wearing anything. You can be
fully covered, and that will come out. I
think as Muslims, we're afraid of that though,
because we have this idea of modesty, and
modesty is like, no. I can't arouse attraction.
We're not talking about intentionally trying to attract
someone.
We're talking about, are you confident and comfortable
in who you are, and does that radiate
outward?
Mhmm. Right? Does that radiate outwardly, even to
your partner?
Right? You have women who feel as if,
well, I dress, you know, fully covered
outside, so when I come home, I have
to wear the most risque thing possible,
we should
you know? It's like you're walking around in
in in this gear, you know, you dress
like Cardi b sis, and it's not it's
not working for you. Right? So math is
not mathing on there. Right?
It it's true. I have friends who are
like, I just don't feel sexy. And I
said, well, wear something that feels good on
your body. That feels good. Mhmm. Look look
at look at cultures around the world. Look
at women that you find strikingly beautiful. What
are they wearing?
You know, what is it about their comportment,
their level of grace, their presence
that is drawing you in? That is true
sexiness. What we have now is we have
this theatrical version of sexy. Because * is
theater. Let's just be totally honest. It's scripted.
Yep. It's completely
it's completely false. It's not true. No one
has * like they have * in *.
No one no one behaves like they do
in *. It's a form of entertainment. Our
lives, however, are a true lived experience, so
we really need to to learn how to
embody sexiness
from a Muslim perspective, but also from a
holistic perspective.
I love that.
I love that. So
if I was to ask you
on behalf of viewers,
where does
sexiness come from? Where does that sexual is
is sexiness
sexual confidence? You mentioned the word seduction.
Mhmm. Where does it actually come from? Is
it something we can perform? Is it something
we can kind of you know, is there,
like, a step by step? Is it something
internal?
Is it based on your experiences? Where does
it come from?
I think it comes from so there's a
difference between
sexiness and seduction.
Okay. So to to be a sexy person
might come across as being a person who
exudes a level
sexy person. They exude a level of sexual
potential.
It may be in the way that they
walk, the way that they carry themselves. Seduction,
however,
is a person who pulls you in with
allure.
You may not want to develop any form
of physicality
with them, but there's something captivating about this
person. I think of Yusuf alaihi salaam when
I think of seduction. Right? Oh, wow. Yeah.
How the women were just like, he didn't
he wasn't even doing anything.
He was chilling.
Right? But he just had this magnetism
to him as well. Is a nice word.
Magnetism is a nice word. That's that's seduction.
And and it's not so you can use
it
in a in a bad way. Right? But
it it it comes from from inside.
Think about think about the people who get
you know, in in America, we have the
the people's the sexiest man alive. Right? People
Magazine, sexiest man alive. Every person that they've
ever put on the sexiest man, sexiest woman
alive, I'm like, I don't think they're very
sexy.
No. Because it doesn't have anything to do
with their their physical features. Has to do
with something that people see in them that
they like. Right? So so for me, a
person being sexy,
it it it exudes a level of sexual
potential, but the more nuance and the more
sophisticated
approach
is what level of seductive
confidence do they have.
It's like have you ever been in a
room and someone has walked in, and it's
like all the air
just goes directly to that person? It's like
you have to just gasp and and catch
your breath. You don't even they don't even
have to say anything.
They don't even have to necessarily be a
a totally,
physically, conventionally attractive person. There's just something about
them that's rapturous.
Mhmm. That's seductive confidence.
That's where it comes from. So what it
starts with knowing who you are, being confident
in who you are, and accepting yourself
however you come. Accepting your flaws. Because when
you accept your flaws, no one can weaponize
them against you. Mhmm. Mhmm. And then you
allow other people space to be fully themselves.
And so that is that's what you start
to exude, and that is that level of
seductive confidence that you have that makes people
say, well, how can I be like you?
How can I get what you have? It's
so much more than the performative
aspects of of appearance and sexiness. It's a
it has a much deeper root. And I
I truly think that anyone can access it,
but it does definitely takes a lot of
internal work to get there.
Okay. Well, that's definitely some food for thought
for everybody.
Now one of the things that's come up
a lot in these conversations,
when we're talking about intimacy, we're talking about
sexuality,
sexual health,
is the
almost deafening silence that many of us were
raised with when it comes to this issue,
particularly certain cultures.
But I know that that's not well, first,
we all know that this is not from
the time of the prophet, salsallam. This was
not the Islamic standard that was set. Obviously,
cultures have evolved, and it's become this way.
But, also,
it's not all cultures or not all Muslim
cultures have the same approach to to to
to sexuality.
So
from I know that you've, you know, you've
done so much research in this area and
kind of this is your what you're plugged
into.
What are the traditional ways
in which sexuality
was was taught
to young people, the next generation, within families?
What what have you seen in cultures around
the world?
So I I'll start with with my own
culture, with African American culture.
And I think, so I wasn't born and
raised Muslim. I I accepted Islam at the
age of 23.
And what I've noticed in African American Muslim,
you know, general culture
is that we tend to be very conservative
in terms of how we teach about *,
And that's because we have received a filtered
down and colonized version of Islam
that has been delivered to us not from
European colonialism, but from Arab colonialism
and from South Asian influence. Because when these
people came into
America, they were coming. They were shielding their
Islam, and so they had to really sort
of almost hide it in some cases. Right?
And then they're delivering it, they're filtering it
to these African American people in a way
that's saying, you can't talk about this, you
can't talk about that, because we don't want
to we don't want anybody to really look
at us or notice us. So this is
haram, this is haram, this these things are
not haram, but we just don't wanna draw
attention. So you have at some African American
communities that are extremely conservative, ultra conservative. We
don't wanna talk about it. Babies just come.
We don't need to we don't need to
say anything. We don't need to prepare our
children for for marriage.
Conversely,
in West Africa,
you have a completely different approach.
Completely different approach. So you have learning about
womanhood and femininity starting from a very young
age.
You have young girls and young boys learning
about their role within the family, but also
learning how to nurture those innate gifts that
they have physically
and innate roles that they will take on
within the culture. So you have the concept
of jonge, for example, which comes from Senegal,
which is the Senegalese art of elegance
and and seductive confidence. Right? Men can be
jonghe, and women can be jonghe. If a
woman is jonghe, they call her jongama.
So you'll have women who are very full
bodied. I would be considered jongama. Right? A
a woman who in America would be considered
plus size or fat. Right?
Rolls on her neck,
thick wrists.
She is a woman who is almost like
the embodiment of sexiness,
the embodiment of womanhood.
She can be a very spiritual woman, and
also be the a symbol of sexiness at
the same time. It's like a cognitive dissonance
when you're raised in a very conservative household.
You have, in West Africa where young girls
are given specific instruction
on how to prepare for marriage
long before they get married.
This is this is a part of the
culture, and these are Islamic
cultures. So in Senegal,
where my my spiritual community is, is 99%
Muslim.
But you have people who talk openly
about *, who talk openly about the importance
of pleasing your partner, who speak openly about
the importance of fulfilling the rights of your
spouse. Not just the right of the husband,
but the right of the wife also. So
when people say, well, Muslims don't like to
talk about *. I always say, but which
Muslims?
Right.
Which Muslims don't like to talk about *?
So when it comes to African Americans, I
always say we need to look for where
our culture comes from. Because even if you
talk about let's talk about India. Right? India
has a rich history,
a rich history
of eratology,
erotic literature,
research
into pleasure.
But what happened? The Victorian
era. Right. You had the colonial
empire. Right? Arabs, same thing.
Arabs invented eratology,
but all of these things have been watered
down through colonial influence. So I think it's
important for us to to take our Islam
with us, but go back and look at
how did how did our ancestors, how did
they traditionally learn about what to do when
you get married? Because, you know, now you
have Muslims who get married, and they'll reach
out, and they'll they'll say, auntie, I've been
married for 6 months. My husband and I
have not been able to have *. I
don't have vaginismus.
There's no problem. We just don't know what
to do. Oh, wow. And we're afraid to
ask.
So it it it's it's it's troubling because,
like you said, that's not from our deen,
but traditionally, we've got I think we've gotten
so far away from our traditional cultures,
feeling that the more Muslim, the more religious
we are, the further we have to get
away from our cultures. And and that's just
not true.
I think that that is,
such an interesting
we've had another guest as well who spoke
about, you know, the the influence of the
Victorians and just the colonial influence on our
attitudes towards,
you know, what really is
* positive approach in Islam, right, where *
is not bad, it's not dirty. It's not
shameful. It's encouraged encouraged to have lots of
it and have lots of women as well,
lots of wives, and have even more and
have more children and, you know, it's like
it's all good. Right?
So it's interesting for those of us now
because we we're going into the next generation
because we've had the you know, the boomers
did their thing. We've got, you know, gen
x like me, maybe you, the millennials.
I think that they are no longer connected
to whatever culture their parents came from.
Mhmm. And
what they would have taken is whatever their
parents didn't tell them, but they went out
and researched for themselves. So the millennials and
then the Gen z's, their influences are pop
culture,
what's happening out in the world, which is
almost a shame because if they decide to
start practicing
and cutting out those influences, now there's a
void. Because
you know what I'm saying? Like, there isn't
an Islamic
version of what they would have received out
there in the world. So, hopefully, conversations like
this will will spark,
you know, more conversations,
you know, more work out there in the
world, work like the, you know, what you're
doing and what brother Habiba Khan is doing
and, you know, what everybody who we're talking
to on this series is doing so that
we have
we have our own way of approaching
almost everything in life.
And all we want is to be able
to access it so that we can live
that holistically Islamic,
lifestyle, including
in the bedroom.
Mhmm. And that's I think that's why I
focus I focus very heavily on
Gen z in my work. I'm Gen x.
I'm 46. So the majority of the people
who follow me are young enough to be
my my children. Like, I could be their
mother.
But I realize that there's a void. Yeah.
Because I know what my friends who have
children in their twenties haven't told them.
I don't have children in my twenties. My
children are young, but I know what my
nieces and nephews don't know. So I wanna
be I wanna stand in to fill in
that gap, because you're right. Once they once
they say, okay, you know, I really wanna
lean into my deen more,
but I still need to know all of
these things about life. I wanna be able
to show them, well, listen, I'm Muslim,
and let me tell you what you can
do. Let me let me help you to
fill those voids that you have, because what
you what you said is is absolutely correct.
We've gotten so far away, which is why
I focus a lot on reclaiming those cultures
and taking what's good from our past and
merging it with the present.
I love it. Okay. So
break it down for me. Biggest barriers to
pleasure for Muslim couples. What's going on?
Fear,
shame,
guilt,
sometimes inherited guilt,
and trauma.
This is from from
men and women.
Growing up in households where * was not
discussed,
growing up in households where the sister couldn't
say that she was on her period and
had to lie and pretend that she was
fasting because, no, your brothers can't know, and
any talk about the body was forbidden.
It comes from
relationship trauma because whether whether it is haram
or not,
Muslims have * outside of marriage.
And sometimes they do it in a way
where they expect that there's gonna be a
different outcome. But when the outcome is
this person just had * with me and
left me, it can leave you with relationship
trauma.
So now you feel guilty
for doing this act, and then you you
you you focus that guilt on yourself. You
start to shame yourself.
It comes from a lack of education
and a fear at getting at at getting
the education. You know, you have Muslims who've
who've been married
for a number of years who are like,
Angelica, I can't, you know, read this book
that you told me to read because what
if my husband sees me reading? I said,
what if your husband sees you reading a
book about *? That's you're trying to be
the best partner for your husband in this
life that you can be. What what is
where is the fear coming from? But you
have people who have this
deeply ingrained mistrust of their own bodies
and a fear of sexual education because they're
afraid of of
of
Allah not loving them. I've had people say,
well, Allah will not love me if he
knew how much I love *. I said,
well, let me let you know a little
secret, sis. Let me let you let let
me let you in on a little secret.
Allah already knows.
We thought you were hiding it,
but the cat literally is out of the
bag. Like Oh my god.
Allah already knows. Oh. But but but, you
know, peep people see Allah as babe. This
is Allah is vengeful. I've had sisters tell
me in
tears until I started talking to you, I
thought Allah hated me all these years.
I thought Allah hated me. So it really
comes it it it always goes back to
Allah. It always goes back to Allah. What
do we think about
our creator? What do we think about our
bodies that are creations
of Allah?
How how do we connect to ourselves, and
how do we connect to another person? How
can * be bad if it's the very
act by which the majority of humankind was
created? Sis, let me just
this is what you call
cognitive dissonance.
Okay? Because
it almost just does not make sense. Because
the way that and I I always say
that I feel
the way the world that we live in
now is so hypersexualized,
and it's always the haram * as well
that's being celebrated.
Marital anything. Right? Not that we would need
to listen to songs about be you know,
husbands and wives getting it getting it on.
But the point is, most of the time
when they sing about it, they're not talking
about their spouse. They're talking about some girl,
some guy. Right? Same with films, same with
music videos. Everything is about
these couplings
that are not tied to marriage, that are
not tied to commitment, that are not tied
to any kind of sacredness whatsoever, if we're
gonna go there and keep it a buck,
it is something that is purely carnal,
right,
and purely physical. And and it's almost
celebrating the fact that it's nasty. Okay?
So we've we we we're absorbing all these
messages. It's all around us. So
either we enjoy it, okay, because that's what
you're being encouraged to do. And if you
do enjoy it, it's because the programming worked.
Okay? You're supposed to enjoy it. Right? It's
supposed to entertain you. It's supposed to titillate
you. That's the whole point. Right? So either
you enjoy it but you feel shame because
I shouldn't really enjoy it because, well, it's
haram in it, or you're repelled by it
and you're you're put off by it and
it makes you feel disgusting
and disgusted by it.
And so we've got all of this programming
happening. Right? And then just as you said,
we know that it's a part of marriage.
We know that in order to have children,
it's got to go down. And we and
then the more we know about it, the
more our programming doesn't make sense because as
you said Allah
created us.
He created us with the body parts that
we have. He created us to work like
this. He created the desire, He created the
pleasure. Not only did he create the whole
mechanism,
but look at the way that it's spoken
about in the hadith, for example. The fact
that it's an act of a Ibadah that
you actually get reward for. It's sadaqa. Right?
There's actually a dua that you make before
you enter your wife. Like, what is this?
It's like it doesn't make sense. But we're
supposed to be pure and religious, but we're
supposed to enjoy *. Like, how? This doesn't
make sense. Is that do you know what
I mean? I know exactly what you mean.
That's because we've we've separated sexuality from spirituality.
Yeah. We can't love God and love *
too.
But God created *. This is a thing.
Right. It's it's a it's a it's a,
you know, one I one scholar, he says
it's the a piece of paradise, the only
piece of paradise that you'll get on earth.
It's the only thing it's the only thing
that is haram for you, and by doing
a simple act of obedience to
Allah entering into marriage, it becomes halal, and
it has blessings on top of it. But
it's it's that cognitive dissonance, and it it
really comes from us not truly understanding our
deen.
Mhmm. No. You don't it's it's and this
is and you said it. Right? There's an
extreme. Right? You either love it. You you
listen to the songs. You, you know, you
watching the movies. You're intimate.
Or you're repelled by it. But what is
Islam? Islam is the middle path. This is
it. This So I don't I don't have
to I don't have to fully indulge in
it, and I don't have to be repelled
by it, but it has its place.
And it has its time. Let me bring
it let me bring it to the middle.
Okay. I don't like that song talking about
who, whatever. But when I think about my
man, you know, this this it might be
things that I like to do. Right? I
don't have to be repelled by it, but
this is not something that I'm gonna do
publicly. There is a Islam creates a space
for it. So So and it's the middle
path, and I think that's what we forget.
Mhmm. But I but I also understand where
that comes from. It can be both of
those responses can be trauma responses.
You know, the promiscuity
this promiscuity that we might see from people,
that's a trauma response, as is the repulsion.
But both are damaging. So we need to
find a way to balance it.
Well, this is exactly exactly as you say.
You know? It it it
I wanna say unfortunately, but, you know, it
just is what it is.
If you do want to get married, you
know, male or female,
it's a part of marriage. So it probably
makes sense
to figure this out and to to kind
of to get onto the right page with
it because I I can only imagine well,
we know already because, you know, we we
speak to people and we hear from people,
but just
how lonely it must be
to not experience
that connection
with your spouse. You know?
It's a loss, really. It is it is
a loss,
which
we wouldn't really wish on anybody because, as
you say,
you are halal for each other. So
go forth and enjoy. That would be that's
just it's such a huge blessing of that
union, I think. This is one of the
best things.
It is.
And it's so it's so deep that I
I said on an Instagram live once, I
because, you know, we were talking about things
to consider before marriage.
And a sister
said, well, there's a brother who wants to
marry me. He's very good. He's very kind.
He's very pious, but I'm not attracted to
him. And I said to her, sis, when
you're thinking about a man that you want
to marry, you need to also pick someone
that you would want to have * with.
And she said she was offended by that.
Oh.
And I said,
this is the problem. Oh, oh, oh, this
is the problem.
This is an issue now, guys. Okay, people.
But you shouldn't, you know, you shouldn't marry
a man
just for *. Of course you shouldn't. Of
course you shouldn't. But you also
should not marry a man that you are
repulsed by.
You should not marry a man that you
don't want to have * with because this
is you're not entering into a business arrangement.
He's not becoming your teacher. He's not the
brother that you sit next to at the
masjid. That's the brother that you lay down
with in your bed at night. It is
okay, but that's how deep it has gotten
that you have young and this this is
a young Muslim woman. You have young Muslims
who are engaging in marriage, and they're like,
I can't even think about whether this person
fits my desirability
requirements.
Check this out. This is this is what
it's saying to me. Right?
Maybe that sister
2 things. Maybe she has a type.
So she's he's not her type. What Oh,
he definitely wasn't her type. Yep. So she's
thinking,
I can't
get that way with someone who's not my
type. So maybe he's not the type. But,
also,
it could be that, and I think from
her response, it sounds like she
feels that that kind of genuine desire
is a bad thing
and isn't something that is in any way
to be honored.
So, you know, it's almost like
I shouldn't even be looking at him like
that, You know? But then, hey. Who knows?
Like, it's
You know, I think
because I started talking to some other, you
know, some other young women about it, And
they were like, you know, auntie, the the
problem is that we don't I don't think
that I can find someone who fits my
physical ideal,
but who also has the spiritual grounding that
I need. I said, oh, sis, you want
a thug and a thobe. That's true. That's
true. He started laughing. I said, but it's
true. Right? I said, you want a brother
with some some swag, who can wear a
thobe with some tint. Oh, no. Like his
feet are slipping. I feel sorry for the
brother. You know, he's got he's got a
little swag. And I and I'm like, you
can have that. Right? You can have that,
but you have to be honest with yourself
that that's what you want. You have to
be honest with yourself that you want some
someone who looks a certain way, and has
a certain level of like, you know, comportment,
how he carries himself, who's also Finesse, who's
also spiritual. You have to think about what
comes with that. Right? Thank you. What comes
with someone who who acts like that? But
also don't be afraid. You know,
Is it is it the looks that you
want, or is it that presence that you
want? I really I really and this is
why I push people. I push people to
to challenge where's your where's your,
desire coming from. Right? Is this desire chosen
for you? Do you really want a thug
in a thobe, or is that what society
tells you that you want? Is that what
society tells you is sexy? Because we talked
about women and sexiness. We didn't talk about
men and sexiness. Right? Well, I don't want
I don't want a cornball dude.
Oh, auntie, I don't want a cornball dude.
I said, well, what's a cornball dude? You
know, I don't want no quiet, nerdy kind
of dude. I said, girl, those are the
freaky ones. She said, oh, auntie, you can't
say that. I said, but I can.
I said, but I can. Because I've I've
lived long enough to know, and men talk
to me. Men are comfortable sharing and talking
to me. I said men put up a
performance just like women put up a a
performance.
So that man that you think has that
swag and has that, you know, he's super
cool, he could be extremely
self conscious.
He could have very low self esteem. That
quiet brother,
very performative. That quiet brother who is very
studious. He's handsome like you and I've had
sisters say, you know, there was a couple.
They they wound up getting married. And she
said, you know, auntie, if we hadn't talked
to you, I never would have married him
because he wasn't my type. Oh, auntie. He
looked. She said he's handsome, but he wasn't
my type. He was too quiet. He was
too this is he's too that. I said,
so how is he now? She's like, well,
you know,
he he defied my expectations.
But but this is this is because
our desires that we think come from us,
a lot of times these are scripted. It's
part of the programming. Isn't it? 100%.
I am with you 100%.
Definitely. I think and this is a reminder,
really, to all, especially the younger sisters out
there, brothers too, if this is you. But
just do be careful
of that type
and that list of like you said, you
want the thug on one side, and he
needs to be half of the Quran, so
I have to have both.
Just be careful. I think, you know,
subhanAllah,
I had this, this kind of revelation
when I thought to myself, if I was
somebody coming up in today's times right? Because
I got married at 22 a long time
ago,
Alhamdulillah.
And my my husband was introduced to me
by a mutual friend at university
and we spoke on the phone initially and
we hit it off right away. And I
knew I wanted to get married, and I'd
already had a few meetings with some brothers
who did not quite fit the bill. So
when I spoke to him, I was already
like, oh, wow. You know, we got along
really well.
And then we had the meeting at the
masjid,
and I saw him and he smiled,
And immediately,
my heart became, like, calm because up until
that point, I'd been, like, worried. Like, what
if I see him and he's butters? You
know? Like, what if I, you know, what
if I see him and he's, you know,
it's like, he just does not fit the
bill, blah blah blah. I didn't have a
type in my head, but obviously, you know,
I'd come from Jahiliya, so there was that.
But I saw him and he smiled, and
immediately I had this kind of sense of
calm.
When we sat down to talk,
it went really well. And so I used
to tell this story where
we we parted ways,
and he went his way, and I went
my way. And then when he rang
afterwards,
I said,
I said something like,
it went really well, didn't it? Like,
basically, like, we're doing this.
It was like,
okay. And I was like, yeah. You know
you like me. Like, come on. Like, this
is this is this is a thing.
But my point is,
if I was coming up in today's
society,
if it was on a dating app, for
example, right, or a matrimonial
app,
or I just had all the programming that
we have now,
I think I would have swiped left on
him because, again, he wasn't the type. He
wasn't 6 foot, certainly not 6 foot 2
or anything like that. You know? He, you
know, he just he didn't fit that frame.
He certainly wasn't a thug in a soap
or anything like that. But when I look
at it, I think,
imagine if I had if I had been
in a situation where I had swipe left
on him.
Everything that happened afterwards, none of it would
have happened. The 15 years of marriage, the
5 children, the amazing times. Like, none of
that would have happened
if I had judged him according to a
an ideal type that I had in my
head. And I think I just share this,
guys, as a reminder, really, for everybody to
understand that,
like you said, that type in your head,
that ideal,
is is is not just something that's innate.
It's not something that's coming only from within
you. It's
a culmination of things, of the programming, of
what you've read, of what other people think,
and all of these other things. So I
guess what I'm saying is, like, don't hold
on to it too tightly because you could
miss out on a really, really good thing.
You really can. And and, you know, and
I know brothers who are like that thug
and a so kind of
ideal, and it's it's it's performance. They're very
you know, they they put on this performance
to to have a certain level of cool
that they don't really have, and other men
can pick it out. Other men, you know,
can say no. He's not really who you
think he is.
And I think that that's why we also
have to give each other grace.
Mhmm. We have to give each other grace,
and we really have to go in,
when it comes to seeking out partners,
as a community, not just as a single
person. I always tell women, have your homegirls
met them?
Have you introduced them to your cousin? You
know, your male cousin, the one who's a
little crazy. Introduce him to him and see
what he says. Right?
For brothers too, has has has she met
your sisters?
You know, have has has she come around
your mom? Because you have on one side,
you have this, you know, brother who's, like,
you know, out there just very swagged out,
whatever. And then you have on the sister's
side, you have the IG model and a
hijab kinda sister. Right?
You know, and she's she's all of these
things, also suffering from a lot of self
esteem, but she has brothers all in her
DMs and things like that. 100%.
You know, give each other grace, but also
also approach
approach the marriage process not from one extreme
or the other. So it's not just the
studious, pious brother or sister, and it's not
just the one who feel fulfills all of
my, you know, social media led, you know,
desirability
characteristics.
How can I find someone
who's gonna make my heart smile when they
smile at me?
Because I felt the same way when I
first met my husband. I'm 5 11 child
of my husband. He's 58. He he 58
on his tall days, but I think he
might be 57.
You know, that what he's saying, he say
58. But, we've been married for 17 years.
You know? And I I would have in
if I were 23, I wouldn't have talked
to him. Mhmm.
Because I wouldn't have been smart enough to
say this person could be my destiny.
So that's that's another thing. And when I
looked at him, I had to think about
too. This is a good brother, but also,
do I have a level of
desire to want to know more from a
carnal level? And that's okay.
Yeah.
That's okay. I think that's okay. And there's
a Halal way to do it. I think
that's what what scares people. They're worried that
Yeah. I think what I really liked in
in those questions that you asked yourself was,
like, the curiosity element.
Because I think a lot of people nowadays,
we do we we we discount people right
off the bat. You didn't tick this box.
That's it. I don't wanna know anymore. Right?
I'm not interested because you're not this. You
don't that. You don't have this. You don't
have that. You don't have this. And I
think if you if you have, like you
said, an inkling you know? Firstly, Aslan, it's
a good person. Okay? There's there's there's a
good person there that's come to you. But
you have an inkling of, like you said,
something that is you wanna know more about.
Right?
Maybe allowing yourself to be curious enough to
not make prejudgments,
to not assume that he's not a fit
because, well, he doesn't have this and because
he doesn't have that and, well and when
I asked him this question,
he gave the wrong answer. So it's not
a fit. But, anyway, may Allah help us
all
through this process.
I always I always tell sisters, like, sis,
you know, you might be blocking your blessing
from Allah
because he's not the right height,
because he's not the right complexion,
because his hair is not right, because his
beard doesn't connect. You know, sometimes brothers, the
beard, it looks like you know how ground
beef when you make ground beef? African brothers,
in Southern Africa, all the men have got
the little
They got the little chip and then, you
know, here is good. Like from the chin,
they're good. But it's just the it's the
it's up here. And I'm like, sis, just
look past that. Because people look at my
husband, they're like, oh, you
know, brother Mohammed is this and he's that.
I'm like, but this this takes time.
You're you're seeing me and him after 17
years. You should have seen us at 17
months. At 17 days, At a year 7
months, it doesn't look like this. And that's
I think the level of permanence of commitment
is something that we're also afraid of too.
Yep. 100 We're afraid of because we you
know, as Muslims even we we don't have
a problem getting married, but sometimes we have
a problem staying in marriages. That's what's happening.
That's what's happening. You know? And that that's
a, you know, that's a conversation for a
whole another day. And we will have that
conversation. But for now, let's let's okay. Let's
fast forward. Let's talk about this 10 years
in, 17 years in. Right?
I wanted to ask you what your thoughts
are or what you've been seeing or what
has has worked in terms of keeping the
flame alive.
So, yes, you're committed to each other, you
love each other, you have a family together
and everything, but it's kind of dead in
the bedroom.
What's what's going on?
You know, I I was talking to a
friend of mine, Halima Taha.
Masha'Allah.
She's my sister. We were we were seeing
a Broadway show. My very first Broadway play,
she surprised me with tickets. And we're sitting,
waiting,
and we were talking about how she was
raised, and how her mother put her through,
you know, * ed classes,
and just really gave her a transformative
upbringing. And she was talking about the ways
in which I'm raising my daughter and how
she felt that that was that that was
good.
And she said, isn't it nice that women
get to be owners of so many different
bodies
in one lifetime?
Oh. We have our body before puberty. We
have our body during puberty. We have our
body before childbirth. And even if we don't
choose to have
babies, we have our body as we move
into menopause. It's all these iterations of the
same form.
And as she was talking about it, I
was thinking about * is like that in
a marriage.
Wow. Right? You have all of these different
iterations
of different bodies
and different moods and how it can become
boring, because * is very basic.
It's real basic. It really is. It really
is. It's real simple.
You know, it doesn't you know, you I
don't know how I've built a career talking
about it because it's real basic. Right?
2 +2 equals 4. Right. That's it. That's
it. End of class.
Drive home safely. Right?
But when you've been in when you've been
in a marriage long term, I think. So
first of all, being in a marriage long
term, there's really no formula for desire.
It's choosing your partner again and again. Every
day waking up and saying, I choose
you, even when I don't like you. And
it's okay, because sometimes you don't like your
partner.
Sometimes you're like, why are you breathing like
that? Why are you chewing like that? Why
do your feet smell like that? Right?
And then I have to have * with
this person, but it's boring. It's boom boom
boom. Right? We have we get into cycles
of maintenance *. So that's why I I
really encourage Muslim couples who have
fit into sort of one of one of
3 categories. They've been married to each other
for a long time.
They were married to other people for a
long time, got divorced, and then came together
again, or people who lived a life
prior to Islam, where they have * with
other people and then they get married. So
these are all people who have different levels
of experience
I invite them to explore.
I think exploration is important, and I think
communication is important. It's important to talk about
the rut before it happens, because you can
feel when a sexual rut is about to
happen.
Feel
it. The * becomes less frequent. Mhmm. It,
you start to resort to your greatest hits
playlist. I know if I touch you here
and I blow on this part and I
kiss you in this way. Playlist. Oh, no.
You know, it's like the greatest hits. Okay.
Let's play track 174.
Right? I know that this is gonna get
us to the it but that becomes boring.
No one wants to eat the same thing
every night. So exploring
is important. You know? Think about the way
that you might prepare a chicken. You can
fry it. You can fricassee it. You can
stew it. You can do all these things.
Look at * the same way. And that's
where where we get into things like kink,
use of,
costuming, and fantasy,
and toys and other things, all staying within
the confines of Islam.
Because the hope is that if you've been
together that long,
that you know that what you're doing is
not transgressing the bounds of the religion.
You're comfortable enough with your own body and
you're comfortable
partner's body that now you can start to
play. And playfulness is a part of our
deen also. Right? From Rasulullah
know that he was very playful with his
wives. So in long term marriages, it's very
important
to do the research and find out you
you can even look at Rasulullah
What did he do with his wives? Right?
He's the hadith the hadith are very explicit
in their detail
in how he approached foreplay,
how he was he was very romantic,
Looking at that, and then looking at what
is available out on the global marketplace right
now that can bring us pleasure in our
relationship. You know, can can we can we
have
dom sub scenarios within our marriage? Is that
okay? Like, is that is that something that
we can try communicating and talking about that
with your partner? Are there certain toys that
you wanna use? Non insertive toys,
lubricant. Do you wanna try that? I think
talking about *. Couples who talk about *
have better *.
Okay. So that's a really big teaching point.
And I'm wondering how many of the viewers
have conversations
about * with their with their spouse. Right?
Is that something that should be happening on
a regular basis, do you think? Is that
just general relationship maintenance? Like, what are we
talking here? Hey. We need to have a
* conversation. Put it in the diary. Come.
Let's do this.
No. Okay. Uh-huh. Yes. There was act there's
actually a study. I can't think of the
name of it. It just came out. It's
a study, on couples who have good *.
And one of the things that they talked
about is scheduling *. I'm a huge fan
of scheduling *. I'm a huge fan of
scheduling * talks. And I'm a huge fan
of having * talks outside of the bedroom.
I work in nonprofit.
Anybody who works in business will tell you,
you have your quarterly you have to meet
your quarterly profit margins. You have your monthly
reports. You should have the same thing for
your marriage. You have to run your marriage
like an organization.
Okay. You have date night, that's fine. Once
a week,
biweekly, once a month, we're gonna talk about
*. In fact, there's a book called A
* Journal, and it that is specifically what
it is for, where you can talk about
what did I enjoy,
What do I want to see us do
more of? It's a very positive strength based
strength based approach.
I think couples should talk about * and
make it regular, and let that be the
boring part. Let talking about * be the
mundane part, not the actual *. Let the
3rd Tuesday of the month okay. Here she
comes. She gonna talk about what we gonna
do now. Okay. What positions we gonna try
this week? Okay. Alright.
Let that be the part, because talking about
*, what it does is it normalizes it
as an important part of the conversation. We
talk about bills, we talk about the kids'
education, we talk about mortgage, we talk about
taking trips to Umrah. So why not talk
about *? Because that is, whether we like
it or not. * is one of the
core foundations of marriage. So it needs to
be given its own space and time to
discuss and explore.
You guys heard it here. You heard it
here. Maybe you heard it here first, but
it is what it is. Okay. I'm actually
working on I'm actually working on a quarterly
report template for couples
to use.
So for couples to use specifically
related to * and relationships.
So if you don't know what to say,
I'm a give you some props. Use this.
Well, if that is available by the time
this comes out, we will definitely be linking
that in the description.
It's been absolutely amazing.
Where can the viewers find you? How can
they search you up? They can find me
on Instagram at Village Amti. I'm also on
Twitter. I don't go on Twitter a lot
because Twitter is not really a safe place
for me, because people go crazy.
But I'm on Instagram at Village Auntie, also,
TVA Institute. They can also email me at
contact at village auntie.com.
We also have a Facebook page, reclaiming the
village auntie.
Masha'Allah. Guys, you know what to do. Okay?
Follow the village auntie and just keep an
eye out for when she's got a course
opening up, a program opening up and just
you know just her lives are definitely worth
catching. MashaAllah Tabarakala. And hopefully we're going to
be able to get her onto a Saturday
night live stream where we can answer your
questions
live and direct and you guys can have
your say and maybe let us know how
the * conversation went with you and your
spouse insha'Allah.
But for now that wraps us up. You
guys know what you need to do. You
need to like the video, you need to
put a comment, you need to subscribe to
the channel and please do share this with
somebody else who will benefit.
Until the next marriage conversation, this is your
sister Naima b Roberts signing out.