Mustafa Umar – My Journey From Atheism to Islam
AI: Summary ©
The speaker discusses their past struggles with their stance on Islam, including their desire to study the Bible and pursue their beliefs. They emphasize the importance of understanding the title of Islam and trusting their faith, as well as their desire to become a pages club member and avoid facing challenges in life. The speaker also advises parents to have a strong foundation of Islamic knowledge to avoid facing challenges and to invest in high quality Islamic education for children to improve their chances of being recognized by the general Muslim community.
AI: Summary ©
For,
joining us tonight. I'm,
really excited to be here with, Sheikh Mustafa
Amr.
As you guys may know, I'm you know,
I live near nearby MCC, but I I
used to be very fortunate to live next
to, Islamic Institute of Orange County,
in Anaheim, California,
and frequent,
masha'am al Farooq over there where,
Sheikh Mustafa'am al was was the imam previously.
And so I had the opportunity to get
to know him and learn from him. It
was a great, great blessing. And before that,
I used to go to attend his halakat
at the,
Islamic Center of Corona,
which was a great blessing as well. So
honored to,
have all of you here today. Honored to
have Sheikh Mustafa here,
to talk about something that I think,
will be very interesting and beneficial inshallah.
Just to learn from a little bit about,
Sheikh Mustafa's journey,
you know, to Islam,
and sort of the different
twists and turns that that took.
And,
you know, I've I've heard I've heard him
discuss this before and found it
inspirational,
found it interesting. I took lessons for myself.
So I hope that it'll be the same,
for all of you. So,
sheikh Musa, if you don't mind to, you
know, just to get us started.
If you could just set the stage for
us a little bit, let us know,
you know, kind of where were you born?
Where what what was the family environment that
you came up in,
and especially as it relates to your,
you know,
affiliation or sense of
understanding with regards to Islam?
So,
I was born and raised in Southern California.
I was born in Cerritos.
I think my parents probably came to this
country, like, the 19 sixties or something like
that. So I was born in 1981.
Was in Cerritos,
went to public school up until 2nd grade,
and then we moved to Tustin, which is
near Irvine, to Tustin, California.
Went to elementary school there, middle school, high
school.
And, like, the Islamic upbringing
was not very Islamic.
I should say, my parents were very, you
know, culturally Muslim.
My mother came from, like,
a, like, a Pakistani
upper middle class, maybe upper class family.
So at that time, they tended to be
a little bit secular in nature. You know,
they they would never go to a masjid
or something like that. So she came from
that family. My father,
he came from not a very wealthy family,
but kind of had similar things. So when
they came to America,
they
I don't even know if they went to
Jummah or not in the beginning, but, like,
once I was born,
they would go to Jummah
sometimes.
No other prayers. Ramadan
is fasting. It's gonna happen, but,
not really prayers. They knew that we'd donate
drink alcohol, don't eat pork,
but that's pretty much it. So friend circle
was Muslim,
Hindu, mix. So there's a lot of culture
mixed in with Islam, and that's kind of
the environment that we we we grew up
in.
And then I think my parents, they discovered
this really
awesome,
babysitting service called Sunday School. You know? And
it was
in one of the largest,
masjids in the or
garden girl masjid, Islamic Society of Orange County.
So I remember that, like, from kindergarten through
8th grade, we, like, we went to Sunday
school.
But if you ask me, like, what did
we learn?
I can't remember, like, anything besides, like, the
5 pillars of Islam. It's like the names
of the 5 pillars of Islam. So, like,
if you ask me, like, anything about, like,
well, what does Islam teach, or what is
the meaning of Islam, or, like, you know,
what is Saqqal, or, like, what does it
mean? I I can't tell you anything beyond
the the 5, you know, 5 names. So
that was kind of like the environment,
go growing up in, like, elementary school, middle
school, stuff like that. Did you have any
siblings?
I had one elder brother. One elder brother,
and he was in the same way. Like,
this means 3 years older than me. Yeah.
So you were in public school besides the
Sunday school? So I was in public school
all the way, you know, to high school
with ex with exception of 1 year. So
in 3rd grade,
because of my brother my brother was kind
of the misbehaving kid. I was, like, the
good kid. You know? So
so
at that time, it was very common for,
like, Muslim families to be like, you know
what? Let's put our kids in a Christian
school.
So they put us in a Christian school
in 3rd grade
mainly because of my brother. It was very
interesting to me to, like, learn we learned
the books of the bible.
You know, they they were not afraid of,
like, Christianity. Like, a Catholic school or Protestant?
Or It was it was a Peace Lutheran
School. Okay. So Peace Lutheran School, and then,
everything was, like, going fine until I remember
one day, you know, I I came home.
But one time, my brother came home, and
he's like, you know, mom, dad, I wanna
be the one who lights the candles in
the church. And they're like, oh my god.
What's what's happening here? You know? And then
and then one day, I came home later
on, and I'm like, you know what? Mom,
dad, can you take me to school, tomorrow?
It's on a Saturday.
Why would you go to school on Saturday?
Well, you know, I'm doing this,
this one thing, you know, because I'm getting
this gift basket.
What do you mean you're getting a gift
basket? They're like, yeah. You know, they said
that we're gonna get this really cool gift
basket with, like, all these goodies if you
go and you get baptized. Right? So I'm
like, so I'm going I'm going tomorrow. I
want you to drop me to school so
I can get baptized.
My mom is, like, flipping out. She's like,
what what are you talking about? We didn't
send you to Christian school for this. And
my dad's looking. He's like, what does baptism
mean? I don't even know what it means.
So they explained. It's like it's it's like
taking a shower.
So did you get baptized? I did they
didn't let me. Okay.
I'm doing that. Okay. So public school, generally,
1 year you went to a Christian 1
year Christian school, the best we can almost
baptized, but Almost baptized. Barely avoided. Barely.
Comes in that, And then back to public
school. And then back to public school. So
if if someone if your classmate,
you know, asked you in, let's say, 8th
grade, you know, what is you know, I'm
I'm really excited for Christmas. Are you gonna
celebrate Christmas? You know, what what would your
answer have been at that time? Yep. We
have a Christmas tree. So In the house?
Yeah. Yeah. In the house, we had Christmas
trees. We had,
my parents didn't do the whole stocking thing,
but, like, we had presents under the Christmas
tree. We're told, like, Santa's coming down the
chimney and all that stuff. So that's kind
of how we grew up. We grew up
with, like, a very a very cultural and,
like, secular
very Americanized,
like, culture.
But at the same time, there was, like
when we got dropped to Sunday school or
when, like if we go to the masjid,
like, once a week or something, we'd have
to socialize with whoever's there. And then if
we go to, like, another party with, like,
Hindu friends, we'd socialize with the Hindu friends.
So I didn't know the difference between, like,
a Muslim and a Hindu. This is just,
like,
people from our own culture, they speak, like,
a similar language. I didn't really know the
language that well, and, like, we we couldn't
really tell the difference. You know? Okay.
So I'm just so let's say move on
a little bit. Like, let's say 9th, 10th
grade. If if someone asked you what your
religion was, like, would you say I'm Islam
or Muslims? Or So I think, you know,
there was fasting. So we did fast in
Ramadan. So I remember that. I would say
I'm Muslim. Yes. But I think the changing
point the really, the big changing point was
11th grade. Okay. Right? Because before so what
my dad used to do is he owned
a business. He would shut down his business,
in the winter, like, the last 2 weeks,
Christmas or winter break, and we'd always travel
somewhere. So we'd travel to, like, Pakistan.
We would we would not go to any
Masjid. We would not we would just go
and visit the people. Most of them don't
pray because they're upper class, like, very secular
Pakistanis.
We go we went to Turkey. We went
to, like we even we even went to,
Palestine. Right? So we we we visited Uzput
as well. And I just I I remember
that, like,
somebody's pointing, m 16, you know, at my
mom, like, because she's arguing with them. You're
not gonna search her back again for, like,
the 4th time.
But we didn't understand what is Masjid al
Aqsa. We didn't understand anything about the history.
It was just, like, the cultural,
like, tour. And it was kind of, like,
eye opening that, you know, we did this
tour, but still didn't understand very much about
Islam until 11th grade. Finally, my dad decided,
you know what? Our trip for this year
we always went somewhere. Our trip for this
year is gonna be Mecca.
And that was
a a huge turning point in my life
at that time. So we we, like, we
go to Mecca for the first time ever.
Like, we're gonna do Umrah. I'm like, what
is that? I don't even know what that
is. So we go to Mecca,
and at that time, it's still Mecca is
you know, still has a different feel to
it. It's a different culture.
So it was a huge culture shock that,
like, you heard the azan 5 times a
day.
All the shops close.
Everyone's going to the masjid for prayer. That's,
like, why that's why they're there. So, like,
this was a a really like, something which
really shook me up. I'm like, I've never
experienced anything like this in my life. Yeah.
Yeah. So that was that was a a
a big eye opening thing. And then something
else happened in Mecca,
which really changed, you know, my understanding of
Islam. So I met some other, like, kids
from America. They were in our tour group.
They're, like, on the same bus as us.
We were going for, like, Mecca to Medina.
And when they came,
they saw, like, you know, me and my
brother. Like, these people don't look like very
practicing Muslims or anything like that. You know?
So they Was that obvious? It was it
was not do not not hard to tell.
Right? We didn't really know what we're doing.
We're just following what everyone else is doing.
Right? So they're like, these these kids don't
know anything. They're just, like, here on tourism
or something like that. So and and they
had recently, I guess, probably started to, like,
start practicing again. So they said, it's a
good opportunity. We can make some dua with
these 2 kids. You know? They were a
little bit older.
So I remember this conversation. This, again, this
is a long time ago. So you remember
some things in in in your history.
So these kids, they look, and they're like,
you know, did you and we always question
things like our parents did. Like, out of
culture, like, this doesn't seem to make sense.
Why are they doing this? Why are they
doing that? So we're sitting in the bus,
and then they they asked me and my
brother. They're like, you know, have you ever
wondered that, like, why your parents do some
of the things that they do and, like,
doesn't make sense in Islam? Like, yeah.
Like, some things just really just just seem
weird. It seems strange. It doesn't make sense.
Like, for example, he goes, you know what?
When you have a prayer carpet and you're
praying, like, do your parents use a prayer
carpet when they pray? I'm like, yeah. They
do. Yeah. You know? He's like, did they
tell you that when you finish the prayer,
you're supposed to fold it? I'm like, yeah.
That's what they do. They fold the corner
of the prayer carpet. And he goes, did
they tell you why? He goes, yeah. They
said they said that she will pray on
your prayer carpet if you don't fold the
corner.
And it's like, did that ever did that
ever make sense to you? I'm like, no.
It didn't make any sense because, like, let's
pray.
That's a good thing.
Let let him pray. What's wrong with you?
So we like that kind of like opened
up our mind. We're like, hey,
This is like, a Muslim who grew up
similarly and is questioning
certain things that didn't make sense.
So, like, this resonated with us. So, like,
me and my brother were like, hey. These
these kids are pretty smart. You know? These
kids are like us. These they don't have
an accent. You know? They're born and raised
in America.
And this is good questions that they're they're
bringing up.
So then they went and, they motivated us,
and they're like, you know what? I I
guess they were, like, in their in, like,
Salafi mode, you know, like re rediscovering Islam
or whatever. So they told us. They're like,
you know, have you ever read the Quran?
We're like, of course. We had, like, the
Quran teacher come, and we read the Quran.
We had we had to learn to read
the Quran. I was, no. No. Have you
ever read the Quran in English?
We're like, why do we do that?
What's the point of that? Because in in
a traditional,
like, Desi household,
everyone is taught to learn how to read
alifbata and read learn how to recite the
Koran. And it's like, what happens is you
have like a party. It's called a Bismillah
party. When you, when you start reciting Quran,
like, well, I'm familiar. I drove with all
the daisies. I know it. I was some
yeah. Yeah. It's I'm I'm maybe some people
don't know. So you have the, you have
the party. Right? And, like once you finish
your like, ayah or whatever you go into,
you know, the Koran, then you have the
Amin party when you like do a completion
of the Koran. Right. So I remember very
clearly my brother, he, when he did completion
of the Koran, this Amin ceremony,
right? He's, they're like, what do you want
to have at your Amin ceremony? So he's
like, there was this, this pop singer named
Bobby Brown. Do you remember this guy, this
guy, and that guy, and there was a
rapper named MC Hammer. So so my brother
is like, you know, I want MC Hammer
to come to, like, my I mean, party.
It's we're like, this is, like, the weirdest
thing ever. We can't get him to come.
You know? So it just shows you how
far removed we were from, like, practicing Islam.
So that's kind of, like, how it was.
And,
the guy's asking, like, did you did you
ever, like, think about
reading it in English so you can understand
the Quran?
We're like,
no. We never really thought about that, but
that kinda makes sense. So he motivated he
motivated me to basically go to one of
the Islamic bookstores there because there's nothing else
to do in Mecca at the time. Right?
I'm not gonna shop for stuff. There's a
bunch of bookstores. He's like, come in, and
why don't you,
you know, get a copy of the Quran
and and try and read what your what
this religion that your parents are teaching you
or that they follow. What is it about?
So I'm like, okay. Fine. So I bought
a copy of the Quran, and then he
convinces me further. He goes, you know what
hadith is?
No. What's hadith? He's like, you know, these
are the statements of the prophet, peace be
upon him, and this and that. And he
goes, you know, it's very important to only
follow authentic hadith. I don't follow, like, the
other stuff. And I'm like, so so the
the non authentic stuff is probably where my
parents are getting their weird ideas about, like,
folding the carpet and stuff from. And they're
like, yeah. Exactly. And I'm like, okay. I
wanna avoid that stuff. That's the stuff that's
always been bothering me. So then he's like,
you know, there's this book. It's called Sahih
al Bukhari.
Right? And I'm like, he said, have you
ever heard of it? No. I never heard
of it because these are the most authentic
statements. You know? So he goes, you should
buy this book. So I got all excited.
I got super motivated. You know? And he's
like, here's an abridged copy of Sahih al
Bukhari. So I looked at it, and he's
like, look. It's actually originally a huge one.
This is the abridged birth. This is the
one you should buy. And I'm like, no.
No. I'm motivated, man. I'm gonna buy the
whole thing. So I bought all 10 volumes.
Right? And I'm, like, carrying it back all
the way, and that's just, like, really when
I started to say, hey. I'm gonna start
taking my religion more seriously. I'm gonna, like,
actually
identify as a a Muslim who has chosen
his religion, and I'm practicing, like, because I
wanna practice. So that was, like, a big
turning point in my life
in junior year.
So this is, like, could just just, like,
winter break of your junior year of high
school? Winter break of junior year or winter
break of sophomore year, and then I ended
up, like yeah. Probably junior year. Yeah. High
school. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then you take
these books back with you to the US?
Take these books back with me to the
United States. I carry them on the airplane
because my parents are like, hey, all of
our suitcases are full. You know, we didn't
just come for Mecca. We came shopping. Right?
So
we filled up all the suitcases. You wanna
bring these books back? There's no space for
you. Sorry. You'd have to carry them. And
I I just got motivated by these kids
and seeing Mecca and all that. I wanna
I wanna learn what this religion is about.
So I remember I I stuffed them all
in my backpack. It was about to rip.
Right? And I'm carrying, like, 10 volumes of
Sahib al Khali, plus the translation of the
Quran, sitting there, like, carrying it, you know,
on the airplane by myself. So, yeah, that
that's how kind of, like, it started in
the beginning. And then did you actually read
all 10 volumes? No. No. No. Not not
at all. So I I got home, and
then I started practice I started, like, reading
the Quran. And I'm like, oh, this is
it's really interesting. You know what Quran is.
I started reading, like Do you remember what
the translation was? It was Mustad Khan. Yeah.
Mustad Khan Taqibin Halali, the the standard one
at that time. So I I was reading
it, reading the translation, reading some of the
footnotes. And, again, I was not a reader.
Right? Like, I had never really read a
book at the time. So even, like, the
books you're supposed to read in in English
class and stuff like that, I just read
the cliff notes and just got by. I
I I never read a single book. K?
I I read comic books, but, like, these
other books, like, you know,
Tom Sawyer's Island
and, Tale of Two Cities and Charles Dickens.
I didn't read a single one of those
books, like, throughout throughout my entire high school.
And I was still top of my class,
but it shows you how bad the the
the school system is. I'm just the education
system is is broken.
But yeah, so I had not read. So
it was difficult for me. Like, reading and
and reading a different genre and reading a
book, like, the Quran is not easy. Then
I started reading, Sahil Bukhari, and it was
very challenging because I'm like, I'm reading it.
I'm like, a lot of these hadith are,
like, repetitive. Like, why is he repeating it?
If you don't know Bukhari Right. Right. Right,
there's, like, 2,000 unique hadith in Bukhari, but
there's 8,000 hadith. And there's a lot of
repeats, and then the chapters are, like, very
fiqh based and all that. I understand that
now. I didn't understand it when I was
a junior in high school. Right?
So it's very confusing to me. Some things
didn't make sense. I didn't understand, but I'm
like, I wanna learn what this is.
So that's kind of like I I came
across some different websites.
I came across,
lectures of, like, Ahmed Didat
debating, like, the missionaries and all that. I'm
like, yes. You know? So at that time,
I'm like, you know what? I think I
I I'm
I'm happy to be a Muslim. Like, I
I'm I wanna be Muslim, and I wanna
understand what what's being said, but I didn't
have any teachers.
Right. I didn't have any mentors. I didn't
have any, like, somebody that I trusted.
The chutbas that we were attending, whenever we
attended,
they were, like, extremely boring. I couldn't relate
to them. I didn't have a trust because
we grew up,
with, like,
this secular mentality of
people who follow the religion. Like, the scholars
of Islam,
they're like backwards people. Like, they they don't
understand it. Like, the Molanas and stuff like
that, they're,
either they're corrupt
or they're backwards. They they, like, come from
a village. They don't understand it. They think
the world is flat. I think the earth
is flat. No. Just the very backward mentality.
So that's what I was raised with with
my family and extended family. They, like, look
down. They make fun of, like,
Shi'yuth and Molanas and stuff like that. That's
what I grew up. So we thought that,
like, these are people who cannot be trusted.
So the only thing I can trust now
is if I'm trying to understand the religion,
I have to read it on my own.
I have to I have to understand the
translation, read it on my own, read Buhari
on my own, and and figure it out
by myself. Yeah. That's that's where I was
at the time. Sounds like an impossible task
for an 11 to be. It's a very,
very difficult task. And a lot of,
DIY, you know, Islam kind of comes in.
So that's when I'm like, you know what?
A little bit arrogance comes in too that,
like, you know, well, now I'm gonna start
actually praying. So I decide, you know, I'm
I'm actually gonna start praying, like So up
to that point, you're only praying Jummah, maybe,
and Ramadan a little bit? Yeah. Like, you're
not praying your 5 prayers. You're not getting
Not not even. Not outside of Ramadan and
Jummah, there there is no prayer very much.
Right? So now I'm like, I think I'm
gonna start praying, and I'm gonna start doing
this. I'm gonna start doing that. But then
I'm like, but it's so important for me
to understand
what I'm saying and understand the message because,
like, all my parents and the other people
around me, they don't even know what they're
saying.
So I decide, you know what? I have
no other mentors or so. I'm gonna start
praying in English.
So
so I decide, you know what? I'm gonna
I'm gonna pray in English,
and at least I know what I'm saying.
You know? My parents have been praying for
40 years. You know? They don't know what
means. Right? So, again, this is when you
look back in retrospect, this is like a
junior in high school,
like, trying to figure things out and understand.
At the same time, there's a little bit
of arrogance. Like, at least I'm understanding. You
don't even understand what you're doing. Right? So
I start praying on my own. So do
you, like, memorize Surat al Fatih? I memorized
Surat al Fatih in English. Memorized
English,
and the whole thing was done in English.
Wow. Right? So going through and just praying
in English
by myself.
Right? And,
you know,
well, not entirely by myself. So, again, I
was not practicing Muslim. So I had a
girlfriend at the time, you know, not realizing
this is, you know, not allowed and everything.
And then I
I got so interested in Islam. I started
making that one to other people. Right? I
understand. So I was telling my best friend,
hey, man. You you after seeing the DDoS
videos and something like that, Islam is a
true religion. You gotta accept it. I went
to my Jewish friend. He's like a Russian
Jew. I'm like, you know, you people, you
think you're the chosen people and all that.
You need to you need to become Muslim.
Islam is a true religion, you know? And
then I I told my girlfriend the same
thing. And then, subhanallah, she accepts Islam. Okay?
So, yeah. So she be so she becomes
Muslim,
and then we're basically like praying together
in English.
So
it's like a d y DIY Islam. Right?
So, like, this was, this was all I
knew. I didn't have anyone to go to.
I didn't have any, you know, imams to
consult. I didn't trust the imams. Right. So,
because that's what I was raised, but that
was my my skepticism that was there.
So it that continued for for a while.
Yeah. So the point you bring up about
trust resonates a lot because I think,
like, how do you you can end up
doing some very strange things
if you think that the people of knowledge
are you you know, you found you find
ways to put them down, say they're backwards
or Yeah. Or whatever, and and then you
end up
Exactly.
Exactly. Because because then it's it's all about
you figuring out everything on your own, then
you don't have any contact. There's no such
thing as specialization.
You become the only specialist that exists in
the world. Right? Right? So that's kind of
what it was at the time.
And then when I was reading the hadith,
a lot of hadith were making sense to
me. And I'm like, I'm not I'm not
getting it. It kind of seems a little
bit strange. So then I come across a
website,
of a group called the Submitters,
this guy named Rashad Khalifa,
right, who basically rejects hadith. And he's like,
you know what? You should not accept hadith
at all. So I end up, you know,
going through his and he's also, like, trying
to convince people, make dawah, like, why people
should accept Islam and this and that. So
I'm like, oh, he's good at making dawah.
That's shit. But
he's like, he couldn't use hadith for whatever
reason. It's a long story. Right? You know?
So and he's like, we don't need to,
in fact, accepting hadith is like a type
of shit. And I'm like, oh,
something else is wrong in the Muslim community.
I detected one thing. Now I'm detecting something
else. So I became basically
through, put the party away and I'm like,
I don't accept hadith. I'm Quran only Muslim.
It's too many volumes anyway. Right? It's too
many volumes anyway. I never got past the
first volume. Right? So so I'm like, you
know what? Forget that. Too much reading. Let's
focus on English, Quran, myself, figure it out
on my own, and we don't need hadith
either. That's that's kind of, you know, what,
where where I was at at the time.
And then I was like, you know and
my my my uncle,
you know, came over and, like, you know,
when my parents found out that I don't
accept hadith,
like, they're like, oh, no. How can you
not accept hadith? I'm like, when did you
start caring about Islam? You didn't care. We
didn't pray. You didn't care about anything else,
but now all of a sudden, I don't
accept hadith. You're concerned. So they bring my
uncle over, and my uncle starts debating me
about why I need to accept hadith. And
this guy's not practicing. This guy drinks alcohol.
Right? This guy, not only not only does
he drink alcohol, he justifies from the Quran.
He goes, you know, no. So
he says, I drink after I do my
salah. So I'm like, okay.
So so I'm like, the guy who drinks
alcohol is gonna come and give me a
lecture about following Hadith. It just doesn't make
sense. So it's very it was very strange.
It was like a very strange time and
place to be. And and then I, like,
start going, like, you know, gonna interpret just
everything according to the Koran, the English Koran
that I have. Right. And,
even like my girlfriend who accepts Islam, right.
She starts wearing hijab and I'm like, hijab
done in the Koran. Why are you wearing
this thing?
So I'm arguing with her. Why are you
wearing hijab? Does it make sense? You know?
So that that was kind of my state,
but at the same time, I'm going and
making dawah. I'm like a dawah machine. I'm
making dawah with my friends, telling them all
Islam is the truth, telling my teachers, you
know, your religion is wrong, you need to
follow the true message of Islam, etcetera, etcetera.
I don't know. This was high school.
And again, there there's no Muslims in my
school. Yeah. Right? There's, like, I think there
was, like, one Muslim in the whole school
and, like, they were far from Islam. I
think that sense, like, when you're a teenager
and you find out, oh, this one thing
was wrong, like, they my, you know,
my parents taught me this thing and I
found out that they were either wrong or
lying to me or, you know, trying to
protect me so they said something that wasn't
true. And then you keep pulling at that
thread, and then you start feeling like, well,
if they were wrong about that They were
wrong about this. About this. Exactly. And you
start feeling like you can just, by yourself,
decide.
Exactly. It's like throw throwing out the baby
with the bathwater. Let's say. Right? So, like,
once you throw something out, you're like, well,
that seems similar. I'm gonna throw that one
out too. That seems similar. I'm gonna throw
that actually, keep but you don't have any
real process to follow. So how long did
that phase,
last? So that phase lasted through junior year,
senior year. And then when I went to,
university,
that's when everything changed for me. So in
my first
I think it was my first quarter of
university. So I was at UCI,
and then I just took an elective class
at IVC,
just for the heck. I didn't even need
the units or anything. So I took a
I took a philosophy class over there, and
I was interested in philosophy, you know, because
I I again, I had not read a
book or anything like that, but I had
encountered one book that my brother had left,
like, in my room or something like that,
and I found it always very interesting. At
this point, have you read the Quran? Yeah.
I've been reading in the Quran. I probably
read the entire Quran in English. Okay. So,
I mean, that's the end of probably the
first
200, 300 hadith and Bukhari Okay. Several times
trying to figure them out, couldn't figure them
out. Right?
So I go into this, philosophy class,
and I didn't realize that, like, my teachers
undercover
hardcore
atheists. Right? Didn't realize that. Didn't recognize that.
And it's a class called, like, critical thinking.
So we had a book called how to
think about weird things.
And I remember very clearly, like, that day,
he starts explaining. He's like, you know what?
People have very weird backwards beliefs in America.
They believe in all sorts of weird superstitions
and everything like that. And I'm like, oh,
yeah. Superstition. Yeah. I know a lot of
people like that in the Muslim community. You
know? Every time somebody gets sick, they're like,
oh, there must be some jinn when inside
them or something like that. Anytime, like, something
happens, they're always gonna attribute something. And I
was always skeptical about these things. Right? So
then he starts sharing statistics
about America, and it just seems scientific. Right?
It's like statistics. There's numbers. They did they
see see how you know, what people are
really believing. So they're like, you know that
this many percentage of people in America,
they still believe in, like,
unlucky numbers and stuff like that.
So ridiculous. You know? They believe, like, there's
no 13th floor. Right? In elevators and stuff.
I'm like, these these people still believe in
this stuff. Like you know? And then they
believe, like, black cat walks in front of
you. You could break a mirror, you're gonna
get 7 years of bad luck. And I
was always this thing's always bothered me. I'm
like, why do people believe in this stuff
still? Like, you know, we live in the
age of, you know, science and advancement,
and the scientism, you know, comes in.
And then they start continuing. They're like, you
know, this many percentage of people, they still
believe in, like, fairies.
I'm like, fairies? From, like like, Tinkerbell, from,
like, Peter Pan, the movies that I watch
and all that. People actually believe, like, that's
real. And then and then they're like, you
know, this many percentage of people and look
at the wording. He's like, they still believe
in angels.
And then I'm getting confused. I'm like, wait
a minute, but I'm a Muslim? Like,
I believe in angels too. Right? Like, it's
in the Quran. So I'm like, now I'm
getting a little bit confused. And then at
the end, he goes,
and this many people percentage of people, they
still believe in God. Yeah. And, like, for
me, that was a big, like,
statement. Like, he's, like, still believe because he's
basically tying them all together and saying, you
know what? These all superstitions are in the
same category. So I'm like, you know, what's
this guy saying? How how could he say
something like this? So then he asked the
class, like, 50 students in the class, because
how many of you still believe in God?
And
I raised my hand. I'm like, yeah.
And I look around at the room,
and I see that there's only one other
guy who raised his hand.
And that one other guy
is, like, the most annoying
Christian missionary
that, like, everybody hates in the entire school.
I hated the guy. Everyone hates this guy.
Right? And I look at this guy, and
I look around the whole classroom,
and I'm just like,
we're the only 2 people who who believe
in god You still believe in still believe
in god. Like, we're backwards. Like, we haven't
caught up yet. Right? Like, we something is
wrong with us, and then, like, this was,
like, a defining this is, like, a breaking
moment for me. And I started looking at
the guy, and I'm like
like, I started having an identity
crisis. I'm like, who am I? Like, am
I like this guy? I can't see it
in myself. Like, am I like the annoying
messed up weird guy? Like, what has happened
to me? And that really just, like, led
me down. That's, like, the start of
doubt about Islam in my mind, and that
just really, like, led me down
the completely
wrong path. That's it's really interesting because it
wasn't, like,
the problem of evil or wasn't some philosophical
argument about atheism. It was this presentation of,
you know, humanity is progressing
towards what towards,
you know, advancements in science and technology
and eradication of superstition and false beliefs. So
we no longer believe in fairies. We no
longer believe in angels and we no longer
believe in God because those are, you know,
what's silly
backwards.
So that's kind of the framing of modernity
is what really.
Yep. That that that that's what triggered it.
That's what pushed me. Yeah. You know? And
then the arguments came afterwards. So what I
did was
I did what some Muslims do and the
mistake that they make. And I'm like, you
know what?
I was getting shaken, and then I'm like,
no. I'm gonna I'm gonna get this guy.
I'm I'm gonna become Ahmed Diddah against this
guy. Right? So I'm gonna come back. I'm
gonna debate this professor. I'm gonna show him.
I'm gonna prove to him that god exists.
So I go
to Barnes and Noble bookstore.
And, again, remember, I don't read books. I've
never I've I've never read an entire book
outside of, like, the Quran in English in
my entire life. So I go to the
bookstore, and I'm like, okay.
Show me the,
atheism section. You know? And they're like, this
is the section over there. So I buy
a book. It's called critiques of god,
and it's basically
the best arguments
made by the most prominent atheists of why
you shouldn't believe in god. And I'm like,
I'm gonna read this book, and I'm gonna
refute argument point by point. I'm gonna come
back, and I'm gonna debate the professor. I'm
gonna prove to him that he's wrong. Like,
you know, because what what he did in
the class bothered me so much. I'm like,
I'm gonna get this guy. And, you know,
when I look back on it,
it's a mistake that a lot of people
make. The mistake is that they assume
that they have such a good understanding of
Islam already that they can go and read
something else, and they have more than enough
knowledge to go and respond to all of
these arguments that are very sophisticated, very developed.
These are, like, people who've been working on
the issue for, like, 40 years, 50 years.
You know? These are, like, the top atheist,
like, you know, philosophers in the world. You
know? One of them was,
Antony Flew.
I remember that's one of the articles that
I started out with reading. But interestingly, he
came back.
He he changed his mind later on before
he died,
in, like, after me in 2008, and he
he changed his mind. He's like, I'm not
interested in him. I believe in god. You
know? But outside of that, like, these are,
like, very well developed people.
Philosophy is not my subject. I was a
computer science major.
This book didn't have any pictures, so it
wasn't a comic book set. It was it
was really difficult to read. It's very sophisticated,
complicated arguments. I'm like, you know, I'm gonna
prove this guy. So I bought the book.
I took it home, and I kept on
trying to read it. I'm sitting there reading
again and reading again, and I'm listening to
the arguments.
And, eventually, I'm like,
I don't have any response for these things.
I don't have anyone to ask either because
DIY, I gotta figure it out on my
own. And I don't know how to respond.
I there's no good reason. Like, there's nothing
I know how to respond to any of
these arguments. So, eventually, I start flipping through
different chapters, and I'm like, k. Maybe there's
another one that I can respond to. Every
argument that they're making, I'm like,
this seems to make sense. Mhmm. And this
just broke down my whole worldview, and I'm
like, I
I don't even know why I believe in
god anymore.
So that really took me down the path
of atheism. And I'm like, you know what?
This is what makes sense. This is the
book that I'm gonna follow for my own,
like, belief, and I left Islam and became
atheist at the time.
So it was like a very conscious definitive
decision. Like, you felt like, oh, that's it.
I'm I'm no longer believing Islam. Yeah. Because
it was in fact, the introduction to the
book, it defines
2 types of atheists. They call and and
they're, like, making fun of one group. They're,
like, there's a village atheist who's just, like,
lazy.
You know? They don't wanna do they don't
wanna think hard about things, and they don't
wanna, you know, they grew up in some
religion or whatever it is, and they're just
like, I just wanna enjoy my life and
not care about anything. And I'm like, I
never wanted to do that. I at least,
I wanted to always have, like, a a
good reason for believing what I believe. That's
why I tried to understand the Quran. I
got motivated, you know, later on in life,
junior year and all that. So and then
there goes no. But then there's the philosophical
intellectual
atheist, and they have writings about Bertrand Russell,
you know, famous atheist philosopher about, you know,
how you supposed to have purpose in what
you believe and how most people don't know
what atheism is. So I was
exposed to
not just arguments against God, but the the
the book that I had bought, you know,
happened to be a book that is basically
looking at atheism as a system, a religion
in and of itself. So because that was
the introduction, I'm sitting there reading and struggling
through this, that already gave me
a potential option to choose from, and that's
the option that I chose. So before you
read this book, you're praying 5 times a
day? Praying 5 times a day. Oh, I
mean, you know, in English. Closer in English?
In English, though. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Good. It's
Daniel Ching. In English,
with my girlfriend,
sometimes while driving, not a safe thing to
do. And I'm like, Allah will accept, you
know. I'm late for school. You know, I
would pray I started playing fajr too, but
I'm like, you know,
I was late, you know. I gotta I
drive just called me driving to school, like,
high school. I had a car, and I'm
like, you
know what? Allah will understand. You know? At
least I'm putting in the effort. You know?
My parents don't even pray for you. You
know? None of my friends no one else
prays. Right? So I'm like, Allah will accept.
You know? So I'm sitting there driving to
school.
I'm doing my doing my before
my my Tesla auto pilot. Right? And, like,
doing my and my sujood and everything with
the motions and everything like that. That that
was that was that was my understanding of
the stop sign. This is what I'm doing
up until this point. So once you come
to the to that,
point where you start to, you know, not
believe in God, do you stop, do you
stop those practices that you've built up over
at this point, 2, 3 years completely, completely
stop everything completely.
You know, that is the *. I think
that's something that's scary to me and everyone
else to think that like something could, could,
could shake. And it sounds like you didn't
really have, like, a foundation to fall back
on, like, somebody to
Yeah. Because you really need a mentor at
that point. Yep. Right? Yeah. So it was
it was an intellectual crisis.
It was a cultural crisis, you know, I
I grown up with. And right around the
same moment, I broke up with my girlfriend
too. So it's like a emotional internal crisis
too. So when you don't have when you're
not processing all of this stuff going on
in the right way, you could just go
down
any path. Right? And then I just moved
into the dorms.
I'm finally away from my parent. Even though
they live 20 minutes away, I'm like, I'm
I need my freedom. I need to live
in the dorms. I lived in,
Middleburg, you know, UCI. So so I was
living in the dorms, but, again, I have
no Muslim friends,
all non Muslim friends. I don't even, like,
know any Muslims outside of the cultural parties
that we had to go to when we
were young, but later on, I don't have
to interact with any Muslims. So it's all
non Muslims around me.
No connection with with anybody else. So this
is kind of what what ends up happening.
I'm I'm just curious how your what your
emotional state was like when that happened. Like,
did you feel like
we did you did it make you were
you a more happy person after you made
this or less happy?
Was it more turmoil? Like, how were you
feeling
internally when you
were very convinced of God to the point
that you're going out and
converting your girlfriend,
and now you're saying, no. I don't even
believe in God.
So it was a mix of 2 things.
One of them was,
well, now I'm free. I don't need to
follow any rules. I could do whatever I
want. So it's like, you know, imagine you're
a teenager and you're in college for the
first time, and, like, finally, my parents are
not breathing down my neck and watching everything
that I'm doing. I'm living my life of
freedom, and, I can, you know, be outside
the house. So I'm like, now I have
a second layer of freedom.
I'm not bound by any rules. I could
do whatever I want. Right? So I don't
have any rules to follow or anything. If
this is not true, then what's the point
of following all these rules? So on the
on that one sense, I was like I
felt like freedom.
On the second
thing, I'm like, I invested so much time
and effort into, like, making, and I was
so wrong. And, like, how could I have
made such a big mistake?
So, like, there was some level of turmoil
there, but I can't remember all the thoughts
that were going through my mind. You know?
Yeah.
So
so at this you've presumably finished that class
in in philosophy? Yeah. And how long did
you stay in that state before?
I stayed in that state probably over a
year, and I was just living my own
life. I remember walking, like, down, you know,
UCI Ring Road, you know, and I see,
like,
some,
like, Muslim guy comes up and looks at
me, and he's like, you know, you look
like you're Muslim. I'm like I'm like,
Yeah. My parents are. He's like, you wanna
join the Muslim Student Union? I'm like, no
way. I don't wanna I don't wanna have
anything to do with you guys. I'm not
I'm not into the culture. I don't have
any Muslim friends. So he's like I'm like,
I don't wanna have anything to do with
that. And he goes,
okay.
Do you wanna join the Pakistanis Institute?
I'm like, absolutely
not.
No. Not at all. Alright? And and and
it's funny. You know who that was who
was trying to recruit me, and I I
ran away. It was Zohad Bunny.
So so this basically, what's funny about it
is 2 years later,
I'm giving the khutbah
at UCI,
and the guy sitting in the audience, and
he comes to me afterwards, he goes, remember
when I tried to recruit you for the
MSU?
And you're like, I don't have anything to
do with these people. And now you're doing
the khutbah and, you know so
how things change. Right?
So,
yeah, I just I was just staying low.
I didn't wanna have anything to do with
any Muslims, any Pakistanis,
any cultural thing. Just I just wanted to
just do my own thing, and and that's
what I was doing. I was just doing
my own thing.
What about your I'm curious about your girlfriend
or ex girlfriend as well.
So I didn't I didn't keep it. I
I I I didn't keep
directly in touch with her.
She emailed me, like, a year later and
then, like, 3 years later or something like
that. So she actually
had remained Muslim. Shaul.
But I I disconnected my contact with her.
So yeah. Inshallah, that is still you'll find
it there for you.
So I I guess we'll take take a
pause here for a minute to maybe reflect
on for all the
because I I say for myself and also
my my kids are very young, but I
I I think that's something we all worry
about is, like, could
could could our stand be so,
weak or amenable to
an attack like that just from, you know,
philosophy course in
college or a thought like that. So I
guess now yourself,
I mean, you become a chef and having,
your own kids and stuff, like, what's the
advice you might give to
to, you know, a kid in high school
or in college who,
is kinda going out for the first time
and and and is gonna encounter these or
probably doesn't count to them all the time.
Now now you see it on YouTube or
whatever the apps are now.
So what what would be your suggestion or
advice
to avoid that situation? Yes. I would say
2 things. Number 1, it's it's very important
to have a strong foundation. Right? A strong
foundation of real correct Islamic knowledge
that is peer reviewed.
Right? Peer reviewed meaning that there there are
people who are experts who study Islam properly,
and there's a right way to study Islam.
And there's a wrong way to study Islam,
which is what I was doing. You have
to have some level of
respect or trust for people who are specialists
in the field, right, people who are established.
And,
you know,
establishing that foundation is one of the best
things you can do at a young age.
So that would be my first advice is,
you know, you have to really have a
foundation,
if you wanna survive,
you know, in a world where
your religion is going to be challenged. Right?
And, wherever you are, it's gonna be challenged
at some level.
And the second thing I would say is
don't
don't think that
classes that you take are not gonna challenge
your Islam. Right? So, like, it's like if
you go into a, a Christian
school,
people generally understand that, like, you know, they
tell their kids, they're like, you know, okay.
You're walking into a Christian school. They're gonna
be teaching you the bible and Christian teachings,
but make sure you don't start worshiping Jesus
and don't get baptized and don't do this
and don't do that. And it's very clear
because, like, it's it's a Christian school. I
mean, that's maybe it's a missionary Christian school.
You at least have an understanding that they
have a religion that they're gonna be coming
to present.
I think the biggest mistake that people make
is they think that the the secular university
is just the neutral,
ground of just teaching sciences and knowledge. We're
just gonna teach you math. We're just gonna
teach you history. Yeah. We're gonna teach you
anthropology about how human societies, you know, developed
and all that. And what they don't realize
is that
there is an underlying religion
of secular liberalism, which is like a religion
in and of itself,
that
that subject is gonna be talked through.
And the the one of the reasons you
know, one of the scholars,
I think it was, doctor Sherman Jackson, he
said it really well. He said one of
the reasons why
it's so dangerous and why it's so powerful
is because people don't recognize it as being
a belief system.
He talks about it. He says it's very
much like race. He goes, one of the
reasons why, like, white supremacy is so hard
to see
is because it feels invisible because it's the
dominant narrative. So when you have, like, the
racism, you can't tell it's overt racism because
that's what your structural racism it's hard to
detect.
So he says the same thing about secular
liberals.
People don't get that. So some subjects are,
like, a little bit safer.
You walk into any of the hard sciences.
Right? How much can your math teacher really
insert in there? You know? There's not that
much that they can do even though there's
still underlying philosophy. Right?
But when you walk into a subject like
philosophy
or anthropology
or,
what else, even some types of history or
or or psychology,
there is an underlying belief system that that
is gonna be taught through. Yes. And so
my advice to people
is unless you have a very strong Islamic
foundation, which I would say 99.9%
of Muslims do not have by the time
they hit university,
they should not be taking those classes. They
really should not be taking those classes. They
should choose things which are unlikely to challenge
you,
or they need to be simultaneously checking in
with the mentor in terms of what they're
studying. Even if you were to take a
Islam 101 class, it's the absolute worst thing
you could do for your iman
because the way that it's gonna be taught
in a secular setting is to be taught
from a very it's gonna be taught from
a lens, like, from a frame where it's
gonna
make you confused and challenge a lot of
your ideas, and you're like, yeah. But I'm
Muslim. I I know I know my religion.
That's a false understanding.
You know your religion
at a 3rd grade Sunday school level. You
don't know your religion at a college level.
So you're taking a class at a college
level,
which is gonna challenge you in certain aspects,
and you don't know how to you're not
trained to respond. So there's a whole, like,
you know, Yatne Institute does a great job
of
explaining this phenomenon. There's a paper called modern
pathways to doubt by Yusuf Yousaf shahood, who
talks about how, you know,
this is one of the common reasons why
Muslims start having doubts is because their Islamic
education is so elementary.
And then any other education they come across,
it's sophisticated. It doesn't mean it's right. It's
just sophisticated. So you're comparing, like, a 3rd
grade education
to, college level education. You're like, let me
compare the ideas because I know both. Yep.
You're comparing, like, a 3rd grade level to
a college level. You bring a knife to
a gunfight. Exactly. Exactly. And and and that's
what I advise people. I'm like, understand
what your real level really is and understand
what you're up against. But many people, they
don't understand what they're up against. They don't
have an understanding of what what's really taking
place. Yeah. I think I think the point
you made about the insidiousness
of it is very deep. I was mentioning
to you before that I feel like I
didn't reflect,
you know, all throughout,
medical school, I didn't really
ever really reflect on the philosophy of medicine
or what was the underlying philosophy of my
teachers or the books or my curriculum. And
it wasn't until I was in residency where
I started to think like, oh,
they kind of there's a mechanistic,
you know, materialistic,
positivistic kind of philosophy underpinning all these things.
And I don't believe that. I actually believe
that Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala is the one
who creates shifa. He's the one who heals,
not not a physician or not a pill
or anything else like that. But if
if if you're learning the if you're kind
of being,
imbued or Indoctrinated. Indoctrinated with that philosophy without
and even the teachers don't know that. It's
it's it's like the air you breathe. Yeah.
Exactly. You know? And we we gotta breathe.
Exactly.
So
it's it's
can be very challenging in that way. Yeah.
So
so you have that, you know, experience and
what what was it that so what was
the next major thing that shook your belief
or helped helped helped me think about god
again in a deeper way? Yeah. So, I
mean, then I started,
getting into the, like, a wrong crowd. Right?
So I'm again, I'm I'm around non Muslims
anyways, but I was kind of, like, a
little bit more in the nerd crowd, you
know, in high school and stuff. So then
I start
getting into, like, the non nerd crowd, and
they started doing worse things. So they started
going to, like, nightclubs.
We started going to, like, raves, like, desert
like, electronic, you know, parties and stuff like
that. And then, eventually, some of my friends,
they get me into, like, street racing.
So I was never really into cars or
anything like that. I mean, I I knew,
like, exotic cars, Lamborghinis, Ferraris, all that stuff,
but I was never into, like, racing cars
or, like I didn't even know what, like,
torque and versus horsepower and all that stuff
was. That was just not my thing. I
just thought the cars looked cool when I
was young, when I was a kid or
whatever. But these guys, they're like, you know
what? No. No. It's really cool. It's this
is all before, like even before, like, Fast
and Furious movie came out, like, the first
one or whatever. So I'm like, okay. These
guys are doing it. They're you know,
let me let me go and experience a
different type of life now because, you know,
I don't have to deal with all this
other stuff. And I didn't tell my parents
anything about what's going on with me or
anything like that. So I started getting into
street racing with them, which is a very
foolish thing to do, by the way,
especially, like, when you're going very fast, especially
on the freeway. You're going you know? Like,
you could literally like, you can kill someone
in, like, the blink of it, like, in
a flash of a second. Right? Somebody's crossing
the street or something like that. You're going
at such a high speed. You could easily
kill somebody.
So I get into street racing,
and then I'm, you know, getting into, like,
this different music styles and going to raves
and all that stuff. And, you know, around
that time,
I was I was starting to get agitated
with myself. I'm like, you know, I know
what I'm doing is really stupid. Like and
I didn't feel good about it. And I'm
like, but it's kind of like an adrenaline
rush and, like, peer pressure. Like, you wanna
be in that group and all that stuff.
So I start to think. I'm like, you
know, this is not even fun hanging out
with these people. Like, they're making dumb jokes.
There's no substance here.
I'm doing dangerous things.
Why why am I doing this? So I'm
kind of like in my mind, like, something's
going on, but I just keep on, you
know, and desire. You just keep on moving
forward.
So you fast forward, like, about a year
or so, and I remember, for some reason,
I was at home,
and I was visiting,
my parents.
And my dad had given me, like, a
lot of money to invest in the stock
market because he knew, like, I was good
with technology, you know, the computer kid and
all that stuff. So I was investing in
e trade and stuff like that. So this
was a tech boom at the time. So,
I wake up in the morning. It was
like on Friday. I wake up on Friday
morning,
open up my E*TRADE account, and I was
trading on margin as well, which you're not
supposed to do in Islam.
So
I invested in Juniper Networks,
and there was a massive
stock market crash.
And I lost, like, half my portfolio. I
lost, like, 10, $20,000.
Right? Now imagine, you know, you're a freshman
or you're a sophomore,
in in college.
You know? And this is not even my
this is my dad gave me this money.
Right? So it's like I'm extremely
stressed out. I'm like, this is, like, the
worst day of my life. I can't believe
this is happening. I don't know if it's
gonna recover. I'm about to get a margin
call from E*TRADE. They're they're gonna call me,
and they're gonna say, you have to deposit
more money into your account. Otherwise, we're gonna
shut your account down. So I'm like, I
didn't have any more money. How am I
gonna explain this to my father? I'm gonna
be in really big trouble. This is a
big problem.
Then my mom,
she pages me because we have, like, a
really big house. Right? A wealthy
family. So she, like, pages me on the
intercom, and she's like, you know, son, you
know, beta, like,
can you take out the trash?
I'm like,
really?
You mean, like and, like, we grew up
very spoiled. Right? We never took out the
trash. So, like, of all the days
of all the days you want me to
take out the trash, today had to be
the day that you want me to get
up and take out the trash. I was
like, no. I'm not taking it out. So
I was really upset and I'm just, like,
really furious and I'm just upset And I
get mad I get into, like, an argument
with my mom. And the thing is, again,
I've been planning for a while now that,
like,
I already have some money. I have some
other backup money saved up.
I just I don't want like I said,
I don't wanna have anything to do with
Muslims. I don't wanna have anything to do
with, like, Desis or cultural people or whatever.
And I I decided, like, you know what?
Very soon, one day, I'm gonna run away
from home, and I I don't ever need
to be, like, with my family or my
parents or any we didn't have the best
family that night as growing up. So I
I've been kind of thinking about this for
a while.
And
at that moment when the stock market crashed
and then, you know, argument with mom and
everything like that, I'm like I was just
so mad, and I'm like, that's it. I'm
I'm done. I'm out of here. And I
know that my dad had given me a
safe deposit key, which had, like, $30,000
in it. And he's like, in case something
happens to the family because he always looked
at me as a responsible kid. You know?
My brother was not on other spectrum. So
it's like, if something happens to the family,
here's a stash of money. You take care
of the family and this and that. So
I'm like, this is my opportunity.
I'm out of here. Right? So I go.
I just get some clothes.
I'm gonna get into my car. Right? And
I my dad got me, like, a nice
Lexus IS 300, like, you know, so I
was street racing at the time. Right? It's
like just the year that it came out,
it was like a really hot car. You
know, you had to pay, like, over sticker
just to get it and everything. So I'm
like, that's it. I'm done. I'm running away
from home,
never gonna see my family again.
No Islam, no culture, no family. I'm gonna
start my own life from scratch.
I'll eventually finish my computer science degree. I'll
become a programmer and just move on and
live my life like any other American and
just live the American dream and do whatever
I want. So I go, and I'm like,
I'm just just furious. Right? So I get
in my car, and I'm my racer. I'm
like, you know, I'm gonna speed out, reverse
out, and I'm just gonna, like, go down
the road super fast. So I put it
in reverse, and I'm about to pull out,
and I realized that
somebody had parked behind me, and I can't
even get out. Right? So on on on
that note, we're gonna take a break for
your shot. A shout and then we'll continue.
The story gets better. I've heard it before.
So we'll resume after a shout inshallah.
Alright. Bismillah Rahmatullah Assaf Alamein Assaful 'am al
assalamu alayhi
wa salam.
Before I know we left on the cliffhanger.
Before we resume,
I wanted to just,
emphasize one point that you've mentioned I think
a few times now, which is part
of part of, you know, one core part
or it seems to me correct me if
I'm wrong. One core part of what seems
to go wrong
is that there's
no person, there's no mentor
to kind
of help you when you hit a wall
and you can't figure things out by yourself.
Yeah. There's nobody
there's no person and one of the reasons
for that it seems
is that there's a there's a prominent rhetoric
in the community and I've I've heard it
growing up and I still hear it
which is,
the scholars are either the are either corrupt
or they're
backwards
quote unquote
or they're not the brightest, you know, what
the different kinds of,
things are said to put down the scholars
of Islam,
and not in a specific way like this
one person is like that but in a
broad way like in a way to repeat
the the arama in a in a and
when you're disconnected from that, you know, you
know, arama are the inheritors of the prophets,
then you're cut off from the inheritance of
of the tradition of our prophet, al salam.
And, you know, that's like the deep way
because obviously they connect us to the most
important thing about life, the iman itself and
dunya nah. But, you know, I was reflecting
on it like
that kind of,
when you cut down authority in that way
in any field,
it doesn't work. In any field. I mean,
if you if you if you're hypercritical
of all doctors out there, the the industry
of medicine Yeah. You're not gonna go to
them. You you go to, like, some quack
doctor, you know, who will, like, do some
weird stuff to you or something like that.
This is the problem in every field. You
know? And and also you have to recognize
the asymmetry. Right? So, like, for example, even
if you're talking to a to a doctor
who's not who you do, who you disagree
with,
you're not really in a position. It's like
if I have a plumber come and the
plumber tells me you have to fix this
problem is gonna cost you $5,000 and I
know nothing about plumbing. Right. You're not really
in a position to
investigate their claim Right. If you don't know
anything about the subject matter. Exactly. You know?
Exactly. And so I think that's one of
one of the one of the reasons that
you kind of end up in these kinds
of problems is Yeah. You're being cut off
progressively from
the people who would be able to help
you. And you question the whole field, and
that and that's really the problem. You know?
I think the biggest problem is people have,
like, a trauma response. They they've had maybe
a traumatic experience with with 1,
you know, religious person in their life or
maybe 1 or 2 or whatever it is.
But then they what they did was they
generalized and said Yeah. All people in this
field are exactly the same way. So this
doesn't mean that every single person in the
field is gonna be like an angel, or
they're gonna be like an amazing master scholar,
and they can answer all your questions for
you. But because you've had 1 or 2
negative experience, it doesn't mean you judge the
entire field. And, definitely, yeah, that plays a
big role like you said. And I and
I also I've I've and correct me, but
one of the ways that I think about
it is, like,
part of our love for the Prophet
and our love for his his Sunnah is
to love the people who carry it in
their hearts and who, you know, dedicate their
lives to
to studying it. So even if I'm not
a scholar or a person of knowledge, at
least I can do is love the people
who who are and doesn't mean that I,
you know, I'm blind to any mistakes they
make or anything like that, but just in
general,
there's there there there should be love in
the hearts of a believer for the for
the scholars of the deed. And that's because
that's that's an extension of your love for
the book of Allah, an extension of your
love for the sunnah of the prophet
because
whoever preserves it, whoever specializes in it, that's
part of its understanding its existing. We wouldn't
have it otherwise. Right? So, yeah, absolutely is.
Absolutely is. Alright. So now we're gonna bring
everyone back. We are,
is this your freshman, your 2nd, sophomore year
of college? Sophomore year of college. Yes.
This, professor, unfortunately, took you down the path
of atheism in that in the book that
you read, and and now
the dotcom bust. Was that what it was
Dot com bust. Last half of your Yes.
Stock portfolio? If you look if you look
at the Juniper Networks, if you look at
the graph of, like, the 20 I actually
went back and checked it. You look at
the graph, It's, like, absolute peak. It's never
recovered until until then.
You can still pinpoint the day that it
happened.
So the stocks go down. Yep. Your mom
asks you to take out the trash. Yep.
You try to peel out in your Lexus.
Yep. But there's something blocking me. There's something
blocking me. So turns out my mom and
again, they were not very practicing, but, like,
they're starting to practice a little bit. So
my mom decided to invite some women over
to have, like, a little tafsir halakhah inside
inside their house.
So some auntie parked behind me. And so
I'm like,
okay. So I run-in the house, and I'm
super mad. Now I'm even more mad. And
I remember I go and I I yell
at the aunties. I'm like, who parked behind
my car? Like, go move your car right
now. I was like, this is unacceptable in,
like, you know, in even in, like, the
culture and all that. So I basically yell
in the middle of a class.
And, the auntie, like, he's like, I'm so
sorry. You know, I I parked behind you.
I didn't know that you need to leave.
So she moves her car and everything like
that. And it's funny because this auntie, you
know, sometimes she
she comes to me after my hodba. She's
like, do you remember me? What?
Who are you? I said, you're you're the
one who yelled at me the day you
were running away from home.
I'm that auntie.
And she's like, I I forgive you. Don't
worry. So I'm like, get
humbling.
Yes, indeed.
So then so then I'm like, okay. You
know? So she moves her car. I pull
out.
I jump on the freeway, and I decide
I'm running away from home. So I said,
where should I go? Say, you know what?
Let me just go, like, south
either towards San Diego. Maybe I'll spend the
night in a hotel in San Diego, or
I'll cross over the border and just go
to Mexico. So, like, my parents can't find
me, and I'll just disappear for a while.
And then, I'll come back and, you know,
get the rest of the money that I
need, and I'm just gonna live my own
life and just do whatever I want. I'll
I'll figure out the rest later. You know?
I'd all I need to do is finish
my computer science degree. I'll become a programmer,
you know, get a job in, like, Silicon
Valley or something like that and disappear. Nobody
needs to, you know, remember where know where
I am. Nobody needs to even know that
I existed. You know? They can forget about
all that. So that was the plan. And
then I get on the freeway, and I
start driving, and I'm I'm listening to, like,
you know, music that just makes you even
more mad. Because at that time, I was
listening to, like, electronica music, but I was
listening also to, like, my old rock songs.
Right? So I was listening to, like,
Blink 182.
Like, one of the songs is called
what was it called? I I even forget
the the names, like, some of the generation.
It's it's basically about
how it's all your parents' fault. Like, they
caused all the problems in the world, you
know, and, like,
you know and then there was, like, another,
group that I used to listen to called
Green Day, and they have, like, a song
called, like, I can't wait until mom and
dad die, and I'm gonna get their inheritance.
Right? And then, like, it's just like that's
the kind of music that, you know, a
lot of people listen to. They don't really
pay attention to it, but I'm someone who,
like, really focuses on the lyrics. Right? So
some people internalize the lyrics more than others.
So I was, like, under the the lyrics
that I understood, I was internalizing. So I'm
sitting there getting more mad. You know? I'm
like, I'm out of here. I'm done with
all of this. You know?
And,
I'm driving, and then, like, by the time
I get to, like, Oceanside, it's been, like,
45 minutes, maybe an hour. I I'm, like,
on my way halfway to, like, San Diego,
and then all of a sudden,
300ZX
twin turbo, you know, cuts in front of
me and gives me the racing signal. Right?
And I'm like, oh, man. Today,
you know, of all days that you wanna
race, like and I was driving normal. I
was driving I was it was fairly calm.
I was mad, but I'm like, I'm out
of here. You know, I'm escaping.
And,
I'm like, I just get even more mad
because the racing signal is when you you
cut in front of someone, you slam your
brakes to make the person more agitated, and
then you give the emergency hazards, and then
you're like, it means we wanna challenge you
to a race. So I didn't expect and,
like, today, I'm like, today of all days?
Like,
you don't you're messing with the wrong guy.
Like, really? So I'm just, like, furious, and
I'm like, this guy's as crazy as I
am. I didn't realize that. So so I
said, okay. Let's do it. So we start
going and we start racing down the freeway
on the 5 South Freeway, and it's,
you know, very foolish thing to do. It's
not a straight freeway. It's got a lot
of curves and everything, and we're just going
extremely fast.
And,
I forget
in the moment
that
a Lexus IS 300 is not a sports
car. It's it's called a sports coupe, but
it has a luxury suspension because it's a
Lexus.
And a 300ZX
twin turbo is a sports car. It's got
a stiff suspension. It's got, you know, 310
to 320 horsepower, twin turbo.
So,
the guy is, like, almost beating me, but
I'm like, I cannot let this guy beat
me. No matter what, I'm just gonna go
complete crazy mode and just beat this guy.
So in order to do that,
I end up, like, turning in, like, 2
lanes or 3 lanes over, like, doing a
really, like, ridiculous move, and my car spins
out of control on the freeway.
Right? Like, going
super fast.
Right? And spins out of control, hits 3
other cars, and then hits the center divider.
My car is completely total, frame damage, salvage
title,
but I walk out of the accident
unscathed. Nothing happens.
Right? So I get out of there,
and,
you know, the police come, like, the same
day or the next day. I I I
basically it's like kind of a blur. I'm
not sure what's going on.
And the policeman
comes, and he's like,
listen, kid.
I know how fast you were going. And,
I mean, there's no way he could have
known how fast. There's gonna be the witness
report. You were going this fast. And in
in in California,
if you're going over a 100 miles an
hour and you do something like this, it
could be it could be deemed as attempted
manslaughter.
So it's like, I'm gonna make sure
you go to jail
because you don't you should not be on
the streets. You're you're a danger to society.
So I'm just like,
what am I gonna do? You know, my
father's wealthy. I'm like, dad, let's talk to
dad. You know?
Get your team of lawyer like, you know,
watching movies, they'll get the whole team of
lawyers,
and, like, you can save me. And, like,
he's like, I already talked to the police.
There's
there's nothing we can do. Like, there's nothing
to argue about.
This case now is over to the police,
and
you might actually be going to jail.
And now I'm just, like, freaking out, you
know, because I've watched movies, you know, like,
what happens in jail. You know? I'm not,
like, a gang member or something like that.
I don't know what's gonna happen. Someone's gonna,
like, get a blade and you, like, cut
me if I, you know they're gonna do
some weird stuff to me in prison. So
I'm like, my life is over. All my
fun is over.
This is the worst,
run away from home attempt, like, ever. You
know? So the whole thing is destroyed. My
car is destroyed. My stock stock market is
gone. My accounts are gone. Like, every and
I have to go back home now on
top of this, and, like, I'm stuck at
home. I don't even I I can't even
escape again. This is, like, the the worst
thing ever. Right? So I'm sitting there in
this moment, and I'm like, and I'm gonna
go to jail. And, it was a very,
like, high probability
that I was gonna go to jail. So
then in that moment, I'm just thinking, like,
there's nothing I can do, and nobody can
help me. So what should I do? And
then I remember, like, the little about Islam
that I had, like, read on some of
these websites and even the submitter websites and
all that. I I remember, like, you know,
I have nobody else to turn to. So
I said, you know what? I'm just gonna
make dua.
So I go and make dua, and then
I start thinking about it, but I'm an
atheist.
Why why am I make when am I
making dua? So I'm like, how am I
gonna make this dua? So then I sit
down, and I'm like, you know what?
I'm like, I'll I said something along the
lines of, like, you know, Allah,
I don't even know if you really exist
or not. You know? I'm not sure if
you this is, like, the worst dua ever
by doing it. So so I'm like, oh,
I don't I don't even know if you
exist.
But you know what?
If you exist and if you save me
from this, if you get me out of
this situation,
then I'm going to
and then I start thinking. I'm like, what
am I going to do? Like, if it's
a conditional du'a, you're not supposed to make
conditional du'a with Allah anyways, but I'm like,
what promise am I going to make to
Allah?
And I'm being, like, very cautious. I still
have the skeptical atheist in me. Alright? So
I'm like, you know what? If you get
me out of this and if I'm saved
from this,
then I promise
that I will try my best
to find out whether you really exist or
not.
So I'm like,
so this was this was the draw. So
I just wanna make sure I understand this.
If if he if he saves you Yeah.
Then you'll try to find out if the
person if the being that saved you exists
or not. That's right.
That's right.
So this is this is and this is
the fitra coming back. You know? It's coming
back in you, but you're still
extra cautious and careful and all this stuff.
So that's what that was my du'a, basically.
A few days passed. I don't I don't
even I I was in depression. I was
in my room. I wouldn't leave my room.
My My friends are trying to come and
see me, talk to me. I don't wanna
see anyone. I don't wanna meet anyone. Like,
I'm just in a horrible state.
Turns out, finally, the charges were nobody pressed
charges.
The police department dropped the charges. They decided
not to prosecute as well because no everyone
else dropped the charges. Nobody got injured or
hurt or anything like
that. And I'm like, I'm not going to
jail.
I didn't say, but, like, I was like,
yes. Like, this this is awesome. This is
great.
And then
came the temptation, and the temptation was it's
like,
but I made this promise.
Like,
am I gonna stick to this promise, or
do I just go back and say, oh,
this was the weak emotional side of me
when I did this, and now I just
need to go back to my rational skeptical
self and just forget all I was just
in a state of weakness. It's all a
coincidence.
Okay. I didn't go to jail. Now let
me just go back to my normal lifestyle
and everything. And I decided, you know what?
I said,
I should be at least true to my
promise. You know? If I'm not true to
my promise, I'm not true to myself. What
kind of person am I? So I decided,
you know what? This is the one promise,
like, in my life I'm gonna take very
serious and I'm gonna keep. So I'm like,
I'm gonna try to put in effort now.
I'm gonna make some changes in my life
to redo, you know, redo the search because
I I kind of I felt like I
had not given it the proper, you know,
research.
So I'm like and I don't know where
to go, and I don't know where to
start. So I said, you know, okay. I'm
gonna
I'm gonna start by
reevaluating
all the atheist arguments that I came across.
So I went back to that same book,
and I'm like, let me go and start
reading this book again.
Think about it a little bit more carefully.
I dropped out of UCI,
and I decided I'm gonna go to a
library, and I'm just gonna start reading books
to try and figure this out. Again, I
have no mentors. I have no one else
to go to.
So I dropped out of UCI,
but I kept going to UCI library every
single morning. So I would go when the
library opens, and I would stay there the
whole day until the library closes.
Right? And, I like the old library. You
you know the library is there. So I
like the old library because it felt more
like a library,
but then, they close early compared to the
science library. So now I go to the
bioscience library after this library closes, and I
would stay, like, till 8 PM, you know,
over there, and then I would come back
home. So,
I did that for several months, and I
went into the philosophy section. I went into
the atheism section, and I'm like, let me
try to see if there's,
you
know, any answers to these things. So I
started going in there, and, eventually, you know,
over time, I'm reading books. I'm reading other
things,
and I come to the conclusion. I'm like,
there are arguments and there are responses to
belief in god. And I didn't recognize that
there was these responses to these things. Eventually,
after a long period of time,
I'd make a conclusion. I'm like, you know
what?
I had made a mistake in my atheism,
and
there are good responses, and I had not
considered those responses properly. So I'm like, I'm
more open to the idea
that, like, there are good reasons to believe
in god as well. Around the same time,
I have no car. I'm not able to
go anywhere. So my dad is like, you're
gonna start coming to Chutba with me. You
know? How are you getting to UCI every
day? So so I was using an old
car that might so I I did have
a car. Right? I had a car, but,
like, not my nice car and everything. And
my parents were watching where I'm going. Like,
they're very careful. They drained all my bank
accounts. Stock market is clicked on. This guy
is never gonna be able to run away
Right? We got him under, like, tight control
now, so it's not it's not happening. He
can go to UCI, and he's we know
exactly where he is. He's gonna call when
he gets to the library, and he's gonna
come right back. And they were very, very
upset that I dropped out of school. They're
like, you know, why what you know,
like, the the dream of every, like, you
know, immigrant parent is like, you know, you
go your kids go to school and they
get a good degree and all that stuff.
So so for them, they were very, very
upset.
And I'm like, I'm in depression. Like, I
need to work this out. I need to
resolve this somehow. So they're like, okay. Fine.
We'll we'll give you some space. We'll give
you some time to do this. So then
my dad starts taking me, and I'm still
working I'm working part time for him in
his business. So he starts taking me to
a place to, like, listen to the khutbah,
like, for Jummah prayer. So I'm like, okay.
I, you know, need to go. I don't
really have much of a choice with him.
You know? I'm in trouble now.
Failed attempt.
So he starts going to a different masjid
that he used to go to. And, usually,
I would never pay attention to anything in
the khutba or anything like that. So I
started going to this new place. He he
goes to this new place, and I start
to listen to the khutba. And, like, for
the first time,
there's, like, a khatib
that's, like, a little bit intellectual, and he
starts, like, saying some interesting thing. And I'm
listening. I'm like,
hey. This is not like the the backwards,
you know, Molana, like, khatib who, like, thinks
the earth is flat and all this. Like,
this guy's kind of clever.
So it started resonating with me. Like, he's
like, the way he would deliver the hood.
I wasn't still fully paying attention, but I
was focusing more on the guy. I'm like,
it was kinda recalibrating something. Like, this guy
is pretty is pretty interesting, and he seems
to be smart. So I started, like, trying
to
hang up like, listen listen in on, like,
the conversations that he's having. I would come
and ask him some random weird questions, like,
afterwards, and I started to gain a sense
of respect for him. It's like the first
person, like, I started thinking, like, hey. I
actually have respect for, like, another Muslim, right,
who's, like, giving a. But this was a
really big turning point for me, like and
I didn't recognize it was a turning point
because I'm reading number 1, and then I'm
being open to this idea of, you know,
somebody else who's, like, clever, intelligent, giving, like,
a good lecture and all that stuff. So
around that's kinda when it happens. And then
one day, I'm sitting there,
and
somebody comes and asks him a question
about philosophy.
And I'm just, like, in the back, like,
listening from the corner. I'm like, wait a
minute. Did he just say philosophy?
Like, wait. There's a, like, a a Muslim
guy who knows about philosophy? I'm like, this
is my subject. Right? This is what kinda
took me away from Islam in the first
place. So I'm like, I get very interested.
I'm listening in. I'm like,
and the guys the the guy responds, and
he says, you know,
Imam Ghazali, a 1000 years ago, you know,
he refuted the philosophers. He starts talking about
a book and all that stuff, and I'm
like, woah. Wait a minute. There's an imam
who, like, refuted and, like, made arguments and
points against, like, the philosophers?
That seems really interesting. So I I I,
like, get into the conversation. I'm like, you
know, can you tell me more? He's like,
yeah. You know, there's a guy, Imam Ghazali,
who lived a 1000 years ago, and he
went to, like, you know, this you know,
he was in Madrasan al Muhamiyah and all
this stuff, and he wrote a book against
the philosophers, like, disproving their arguments about why
you didn't believe in god and all that.
I'm like, I didn't know that. Like, that's
amazing.
So immediately, like, Amazon had just, like, launched
recently. Right? This is, like, new. So I
go on Amazon dotcom, and I'm like, I'm
gonna go and buy those books. I'm gonna
read those books. And he told me he's
like, no. No. You these books are not
for you. These books are not at your
levels. You shouldn't be reading this stuff. You
know? So I'm like, you know, I'm the
type of person at the time. I'm like,
if you tell me that it's too advanced
for you, like, oh, yeah? I'm gonna show
you. I'm gonna I'm gonna prove to you
that I can do it. So I went
on Amazon, and I just started buying everything
I could from Imam Khosali. Right? So I
buy his autobiography.
I buy Ihano Abdulmuddin.
I couldn't find, Incoherents the Philosopher. It wasn't
available there, but I found it in the
UCI library. So the book that he was
talking about, I didn't really recognize what it
was, like but I start I start you
know, I find it in the library, and
then Amazon has, like, these recommendations. If you
bought this book, then you should buy this
book. I'm like, I wanna buy that book
too. So I bought, like, Reconstruction of Religious
Thought in Islam by Alemay Khbal and, like,
a bunch of other books which are way
above
my comic book level, you know, normal reading.
Right? But I bought the minigames. I'm I'm
gonna show him, and partly it was, like,
to impress him.
Partly, it was to, like, figure out what
this is and to show him, like, I
can do it too. This was just my
mentality. So I go and I start reading
these books, and then I start reading, you
know, Ghazali in the philosophy and religion section
in the library. I find out that he's
in both sections.
So I'm like, this is interesting. So I
end up in the Islam section, and I
end up in the philosophy section, and I'm
looking at all the other books around the
time. So I started reading, reading, reading, reading,
going back, talking to this guy a little
bit, and, eventually, this is what kind of
led me down the path of coming back
towards Islam.
Yeah.
Sorry.
Was was there something that stood out for
you from from the reading that you did
with me? Because I think, like, part of
it is you still have this kind of
do it your
DIY mentality
Yeah. Type thing where you're, like, picking up
translations of Imam Ghazali. And so was it
was there something that stood out to you,
from those readings? Or One of the things
that really stood out to me was, see,
Imam Ghazali, again, he lived a 1000 years
ago. And for me, I had this very
modern
scientific
scientism, you know, mentality that we are the
most advanced civilization.
People of the past, they were primitive. They
were foolish. They were dirty. They didn't understand
what's going on in the world. And then
I pick up Yom Kizali, and I'm just
reading it. I'm like, this guy's really clever.
Like, he's very sophisticated, and he's a Muslim.
And he went to, like, Madrasa Nilaniya, and
I'm like, oh, Madrasa. And, like, we were
taught, like, Madrasa, there's a bunch of kids
rocking back and forth. He's reading Quran. They
don't understand anything. They don't know anything. So
and, again, I don't I don't I don't
even know understand what Madrasa Nilaniya is at
the time, but I'm just like, this challenged
my understanding of things. And then he writes
an autobiography, so I ended up getting his
autobiography,
Deliverance from Error.
And when I'm reading it, I'm finding a
lot of parallels. So it's like, Imam Ghazali
went through a crisis of skepticism,
and I'm like, I went through a crisis
of skepticism.
And he basically, like, had all these doubts
about Islam. I'm like, I had all these
doubts about Islam. So he is part of
his life story resonated with me. I'm like,
this is a famous Muslim scholar
who doubted. He was very intelligent.
He had knowledge of Islam. He lived a
1000 years ago. He was very clever before
because I I read some of the writings
that he wrote before he went through this.
And then when when he's going through it,
I'm like, there's
this this is like
it mirrors what I was going through. Yeah.
And I'm like, I have someone now to
relate to, and this was like a big
opening for me. So that that really, really
resonated. And
his incoherence of the philosophers, reading some of
the arguments, and, you know, if, you know,
if you ever read I don't recommend you
read it too,
but, hopefully, you're not like I was. And
say, if I tell you not to read
it, you're gonna go read it. You know?
But I don't recommend you read it. It's
very sophisticated text. It's it's an advanced text.
You know? But
I was looking at the argument, so he
basically says this is what the philosophers say,
and then this is their response. And then
if they respond like this, then you respond
like, I mean, this is such a systematic
way of arguing things and, like, responding to
things. I'd never encountered something like this before.
I'm like, this guy could have responded to
that book of critiques of God, like, very
well. You know? So,
that just kind of re started restoring my
confidence in these arguments, restoring my confidence in
Islam, and I went through a bunch of
other religions as well. So I looked into
Christianity,
Judaism.
I had a a dictionary of religions that
I had bought, like, in when I was
in my, junior year. I visited, like,
London for a debate competition, and I bought
a book on dictionary religions. And there was,
like it talks about, like, almost all the
religions in the world. So I'm going through,
and I'm, like, if I was gonna pick
a now that I, like, I kind of
believe that there's room to believe in God.
If I were to pick a religion, which
religion would I pick? So I start going
through the list, you know, and there's, like,
shamanism religion and, like, folk religion. I'm like,
okay. Not that one. Not that one. So
I started going through this entire book, and
I'm like, which religions would I even consider?
You know? And then
simultaneously, I start reading this. I start going
attending the Khutba. I start meeting this other
person, and eventually, that's really kinda what led
me back to say, you know, Islam is
the religion that really makes the most sense.
The the other religions just don't make sense
to me. So at this point, when you're
reading,
you know, you're spending all this time in
the library and I guess or maybe more
critically after you start reading some of these,
books from Lazari, did you how was your
practice? Like, did you when did you start
praying again or,
like, how was was there was there a
religious practice going along with the reading, or
was it still just reading? It was just
reading. It was just reading. Maybe there was
some Dua or something like that. I I
don't really remember
when I resumed praying. I don't remember when
that was. I don't remember how that was.
I yeah. I I can't remember if it
was, like, English still or if it was
some somewhere it shifted into Arabic. But then
when I started going and interacting with this
guy, the same guy who introduced me to
Ghazali, he starts telling me he's like, you
know what?
I'm like, I wanna go to
a place like Imam Ghazali went. That that
was my I'm I'm like, I wanna go
to Madras Al Islamiyah, right, which was in
Iraq a 1000 years ago. So and I
don't understand anything about the world. You know?
Politics. News was, like, the most boring, you
know, station. Like, when I was a kid,
I watched cartoons. I didn't really know much
about the world at all. So I'm like,
you know, can I go to Madras in
Islamiyah? He's like he's like
so you don't know what's happening in Iraq,
like, in the war and everything. I'm like,
no. What's, like, is the school is, like,
not there anymore. It's like, it's like, it's
been a 1000 years. There's no mother to
send me a love me anymore. I'm like,
okay. But, like, where can I go? So
he starts telling me. He starts he's
himself is somebody who who's, like, a student
of knowledge.
He wants to go and study himself. He's
not studying. His father is his father.
So he's like, you know, one of the
best schools you can go to nowadays in
his opinion was in
India. Right? He starts telling me about the
shift, Shef Abul Hasan Naddri. He starts giving
me some books. He's like, you should read
these books,
you know? And I initially, I just like
I'm not really interested in it. I'm like,
okay. I'll take it home. I kinda read
a little bit just to impress him and
come back. He's like, did you read it?
I'm like, yeah. You know, the story is
pretty interesting. And, like, I wasn't understanding it,
but but sheikh Abul Hasan and Nadwi is
also very intellectual. Right? He's very academic, so
I was introduced to, like, the right
literature at the right time. You know, I
think back, and I'm like, if he handed
me a thought book,
I would have just been completely turned off.
If he handed me, like, a a a
book on Nahu and said, like, start studying
Arabic or something like that, this wouldn't have,
like, done much for me. You know? And
and I think I think that's you know,
in retrospect, this is this is one of
the mistakes sometimes people make. They're like, you
know, they don't think about what you're struggling
in. They're like, you know, you need a
like I said, you need a strong Islamic
foundation. But, like, if the first thing you
do would be like, you need to learn
Arabic. Here's the book on surf, And I've
seen this before. People are like they have
their own issues. They're coming in with background
baggage and everything, and they're like, you need
to enroll in Islamic studies program. They enroll
in Islamic studies program. This eventually happened to
me. So I enrolled in Islamic studies program.
I go to a madrassa
thinking that I'm gonna find Imam Mozaani there.
Right? And instead, what did I find? They
hand me a book on stuff. Okay? You're
gonna start conjugating verbs, you know, fa'ala, fa'ala,
fa'ala, fa'ala, fa'ala, fa'ala, ta'ala. You gotta you
gotta learn Arabic grammar. You gotta learn this.
You gotta learn that. You gotta learn Tajweed.
You gotta learn how to recite the Quran,
you gotta do Madam, Imala, and Rome, and
Ishmaam, and you gotta learn all these rules
of how to recite the Quran. I'm like,
that's
I'm not there yet, right, like, that that's
not gonna help me resolve any of the
issues that I'm still struggling through.
So I think, alhamdulillah, alhamdulillah, it's really a
blessing from Allah that I met this guy,
and he recommended to me, like, the right
literature.
And I got exposed to the right books
rather than getting exposed to, like, the wrong
curriculum that would not have really been appropriate
for me at the time. See it seems
like he took the time to
listen
to you and see where you were at
before just
Yeah. Giving you a recommendation. And and and
he had the insight to actually do that
too because he I'm sure he selected
the book that was appropriate for me, and
only I can, like, look back and I'm
like, he could tell. Like, you know, 19
year old kid, like, 20 year old kid,
whatever it is. Like, this is what this
kid needs. He needs something intellectual. I'm not
gonna and he again, he was someone who
does study fiqh and all that stuff, but
he's like, that's not what he needs. This
is what he needs, and let me let
me try and, you know, get him to
do something like that. So Hamdah was a
huge blessing from Allah. So then you got
on a plane to go study in Neder
Surah at Mat? Not exactly.
That's what I wanted to do. So I
wanted to go, and I'm like, that's it.
I'm ready. I'm I'm ready to go, and
I'm I wanna study Islam. I wanna go
to India. So I go and I tell
my parents. I'm like, you know what? Mom,
dad, you know, I'm
I'm I'm praying. I'm I'm, like, back as
if they they didn't even know that I
left Islam. Right? So I'm like, but they're
seeing changes in me. They're like, he's he's
coming for chuppah, and he's talking to an
imam. Like, this is this is really nice.
So my mom, dad, I wanna go to
India. What? Are you crazy? Like, we left
that country because their view of the country
is, like, backwards and everything. We left that
country to come to a better place in
America,
and you wanna go back there? Why would
you wanna go back to the place that
we ran away from? Like, something's wrong with
this kid. You know, this kid doesn't know
what he's doing. Right? So I'm just like
so they're they're they're like, no. There's no
way you're going. Like, I'm like, no. I
have made up my mind this is
where people like Imam Ghazali are produced, and
they don't know who Ghazali is. Right? And
I'm like, I need to go there. They're
like, no. We're not sending you there. So
then finally, we made a compromise. We made
a deal.
So they said, if you reenroll in UCI
and you finish your degree in computer science,
then we will send you to India. We'll
send you to whatever school you want. So
we said, okay. Deal.
So I made a deal.
Now that I come back to UCI, I
reenrolled after a year of of being off.
You can reenroll without reapply. So I got
back into school, and I'm 1 year behind.
But now because I've been reading Ghazali, been
reading,
read Kitabulum, I have, like, appreciation for knowledge.
I keep on reading all these books.
My mentality
and approach to school is completely changed because
before, it was like,
why would I read any books if I
can get an a while reading the CliffsNotes
or not even have to read? Even the
CliffsNotes was too much. I didn't even have
to read the whole CliffsNotes. Why put all
that effort in when I know I can
get an a? Yeah. You know? But now
I actually value the knowledge itself because when
you when you learn Islam and you read
some of these things about intellectual history,
it teaches you, like, the benefit of learning
any type of knowledge. Knowledge really has benefit.
So now I'm coming with a completely different
mentality. So I just stack up all the
classes.
I start finishing them off, and I finish
my, you know, degree in in 3 years
instead of 4 years. Right? A lot of
people, they even take 5 years in computer
science. You know? So I I finish it
very quickly, do, you know, finding classes because
now I have double motivation.
Motivation number 1, I care about the knowledge
that I'm studying with every subject. I was,
like, interested in it.
2nd motivation, I need to get out of
here, and I usually get out of America.
I need to go and study where the
real Islam is being taught, which I think
is in India at the time. Right? So
I'm like, this is my goal.
So then
I end up joining the Muslim Student Union,
you know, and they kinda pull me in.
I just wanted to go there to pray,
and then I would go back to the
library and just keep reading. And they're like,
you know, you're reading and, you know, you've
read more books than all. I'm like, I
just came back to Islam. So, like, you've
read more books than all the other MSAP
MSU people. Right? Can you, like, start teaching
a class? You know? So I'm like I
get stuck. I'm like, okay. Fine. I'll teach
something. So I start teaching a class, then
I get asked to do a khutbah, then
I start getting asked to, like, do hukbas
in the masjid and stuff like. I'm like,
I just came back to Islam, like, 6
months ago. Right? But this is what happens.
People get pulled in the direction when someone's
excited and motivated and all that. So I
started doing all this,
and then
I finally finished my degree,
And I tell my parents,
promise is a promise. I'm going to India.
They're like, you know, we changed our mind.
You're not going anywhere.
I'm like, but we had a deal. So,
yeah, we changed our mind. They're not going
anywhere. So they they they they just did
that. Maybe they just did that just to
motivate me to finish my degree because that
was the thing. So not right of them,
but so they said you're not going anywhere.
So I said, what am I supposed to
do? Go get a job. Like everybody else,
you finish your degree, you get a job,
and you get married, and you settle down.
So that's the that's their trajectory of the
average parent. If this is what you're supposed
to do, and then you're gonna settle down,
you're gonna become mature, and you have some
kids, and that's it. You don't need to
focus on all this other stuff, and if
you want, take a few Islamic classes locally,
and that's good enough for you. So they
were taking me to other shuyu, basically, other
other scholars
to convince me
why I shouldn't go abroad and study anywhere
else. And it was really it was kinda
shady, actually. I usually don't mention this, but
I I got my dad's permission. You know?
So he would actually go and he would
donate to this because he was wealthy. He
would donate to the scholars,
their school or their masjid
before he would bring me in.
And then he's basically, he paid off the
sheikh, and he's like, can you talk to
my son about why there's some amazing opportunities
to study Islam here? He doesn't need to
go abroad anywhere. So he sort of could
they're trying to convince me in a month.
Becoming a programmer is the best thing about
it. Right?
Well, actually, my, you know, my father, you
know, my father actually didn't want me to
go to school either. So he was not
a he was not pro school because he's
a businessman.
So he's like, why would you even become
a programmer when you can come and work
with me and make 10 times what a
programmer would make normal? Because he's very successful
in his business. So he was not really
pro education actually, but he's like, this is
the this is the
the lesser of the 2 evils. You know?
It's like,
go ahead and finish your degree at least.
You know? This is good enough.
So,
so this is what ends up happening. So
I'm like, okay.
I'm not able to go. I'm not able
to, you know, go anywhere, so I'm like,
okay. I start studying a little bit Islam
privately here and there. I gotta go get
a job. So I go and all my
bank accounts are drained. I have no money.
So I get a job.
I get a job, and I I start
working as a programmer. And as soon as
I got just in I calculated how much
money do I need to get a ticket
to go to India. How much does it
cost to live over there? And it's interesting.
This school because India is a very poor
place, and the madrasas are definitely not madrasas
and their mameer, but they're very
they cater to the poor people.
So the cost
of enrolling in the madrasa in India just
take a guess how much it is. Did
you did you already did you already know
this? No. I don't. Just just take a
guess.
So how much is
2,000 and This is in 2,003
cost of food,
lodging,
and tuition
For 1 semester.
For the whole year. For the whole Per
month. How much is per month? Monthly. Yeah.
I'm gonna guess,
$200.
Good guess.
$6 a month. No. You don't have a
lot. $6 a month because there's, like, some
stipend and there's it's designed for people who
are, like,
orphans and really, really poor. So that's just
the way the school works. So I'm like,
I can buy the plane ticket. It's expensive.
$6 a month to live with food, tuition,
and everything. And it's it's a really difficult
living. You're gonna be living with, like, 6
or 8 people in a room cramped.
You literally you live on your bed.
You eat on your bed. It your your
bed turns into a table, so you eat
on it, and it turns into a desk
and you study on it. Like, you get,
like, a little your whole space is a
bed. Like, that's your life. Right? It's very
primitive way of living.
So I'm like,
I made just enough money
that I'll be able to go and be
able to pay the ticket, airplane ticket, everything.
As soon as I got my, I don't
know, 10th paycheck or something like that, I
go to my parents, and I'm like, mom,
dad, I have enough money to go to
India now, and you can't stop me. So
I'm going.
And then they start panicking, and they're like,
what are we gonna do? We need to
stop this kid. So that's when they start
taking me to other shirk and, you know,
start paying them and talk to him and
convince him why he should study at the
local school, why he shouldn't go. Because they
they they were very scared for me. We
had no family in India. Right?
All family members are in Pakistan. Yeah. So
they're like, why don't you go to Pakistan?
I'm like, no. Because this school that I
need to go to is only in India.
It's not anywhere else. And this is 2003?
This is 2,000 This is also post 911.
This is post 911. Where where, young,
Muslim man, you know, going leaving the US
to go study Islam. The US to go
study Islam and and and go fight somewhere
else. Yeah. And that was actually one thing
I was thinking about as well at the
at the time. Right?
A kid who's new to Islam and wants
to do something, so I'm thinking about study
and maybe I'll, you know, go help
brothers in some part of the world because
that you don't know what to do. You
don't have any guidance. You don't have any
full mentorship or anything like that. So that
was kind of what was going on, and
then finally, my father comes up with the
last idea. You know? His last idea was,
he
goes, okay.
I have one last offer for you. Because
he's like, this is I'm buying my ticket.
I'm I'm about to leave. Right? And he
goes, okay. Remember when you were growing up,
your you my me and my brother, we
only had one poster on our wall each
since we were kids, like, since, like, 4th
grade, 5th grade, and it just stayed on
the wall
since all the way through college. It's the
only only poster we had on our wall.
You know, all the other posters came down,
the basketball players and all that stuff. The
one poster that remained on the wall was
my brother had a poster of a Lamborghini
Countach,
and I had a poster of a Ferrari
Testarossa. Right? And so he goes, you know
that you know the car? What's the car
that you have on the wall? I said,
Ferrari Testarossa. He goes, if you don't go
to India,
we go to the dealership right now. I'm
gonna get you for a testirosa.
And he's not bluffing either because he's wealthy.
He can afford.
He can afford it. So
and I'm like, man,
this is the most tempt
this is the most tempting
you know, this is the biggest temptation of
my life. Right?
And now I've been in the MSA. I've
been giving Khutbas. Now I'm actually have Muslim
friends and everything like that, and now they're
telling me, you know,
they're like,
if you got the Ferrari
and you're already studying, you could study locally,
you already gave me Khutbaz in the masjid,
you're already teaching classes in MSU, you would
be like the coolest imam ever. Like, like,
the imam that drives a Ferrari.
Imagine how much Hassanat you'd get. You get
so many all the youth would be following
you. You can get so much more reward
by taking the Ferrari. So you get you
get the dean and the dunya boats. I'm
like,
this is like the worst fit ever.
I'm like, I'm on a quest. I'm still
have a lot of questions I wanna ask.
I wanna get a deeper understanding of Islam.
And then even my friends are like, no.
You should do it, man. Because because they're
also like, we're gonna ride with you too.
It's the must we're gonna pull up in
the Ferrari, and you're gonna be giving the
hodba in your try to test the roaster.
Right? And I'm like, oh, man. This is
such a tempt such a big temptation. You
know? But,
you know, in retrospect, I have no regrets.
So I said, no.
I'm going no matter what, and I packed
my bags, and I almost didn't even get
a visa. It was post 911.
In India, the same way it is now,
they ask you
where your parents were born. And this was,
like, shocking to me because, like, in America,
they they they don't ask you where your
parents were born. So if even one of
your parents was born in Pakistan, there's such
a rivalry, they won't give you a visa.
So, normally, I shouldn't have even gotten a
visa. And what happened was and this is
post 911.
So I go in there for the line
for the visa just to even be able
to enter into India. And I'm sitting there,
and I'm at the line, and they're about
to close. And I'm at the end of
the line, and they're like, you know what?
I had, like, whatever documents are like people
told me you're probably not gonna get it
because your parents are, like, have born in
Pakistan. Or my dad was born in India,
but my mom was born in Pakistan, and
that's enough to disqualify you. So at the
end, like, right at the end, they're like,
you know, we're closing up for the day.
Last 5 people in line,
either they need to leave or we're gonna
speed them through. So there there were 2
guys debating, and they're like, you know what?
Tell them to leave. You know, we're closing.
They I was, no. Just only a few
people left in line. Just just speed them
through. They're like, okay. Come. Come. Come. They
didn't even look at our documents, and they
just stepped. 10 year visa on the spot.
And I'm like,
man. I got I got a visa post
911,
you know, to end to go to India,
and, like, this was very rare thing. Now
it's alqadarullah. You know? So alhamdulillah. We got
the visa and everything,
and
I left and I made my way to
India. Alhamdulillah.
So You know, subhanallah. One of the things
that strikes me when I listen to the
story is that, like, all the way through,
even when even at the point where you
become an atheist and you start believing in
god and so it seems like you had
because you said when you were in a
junior in high school, you bought the dictionary
of religions. Right? Yes. And then so it
seems like all along I had this interest
there's something inside of you that's saying, like,
this is something important. Yeah. There's an important
question about Yep. What is truth, who is,
you know is there a God, who is
God? You know? So it seems like that's
a persistent
theme throughout the story that that you take
you take it seriously. Yes. Maybe you made,
you know, made some wrong turns. Yes. Yes.
But all the way through, it was important.
You took it seriously. I took it seriously
in, like, wanting to understand things was, like,
something very important for me. You know? So,
like, I always had the
mentality to understand how things work and all
that. So I applied that to things in
life. I applied that to religion. Like, I
wanna understand how this religion works and why
why do we say in prayer what we
say, and why do we do what we
do? And that's why I like the whole
folding the carpet is I don't know. These
some of these things just don't make sense
to me. You know? So I'm like
and then when I heard that, like, it's
not really part of Islam, I'm like, oh,
there's
so so
there are things
I accurately identified as not making sense, and
I was right about that. I'm like, something
was something was, you know, resonating with me.
So, yes, there was always that that thing
in me that I wanted to understand things,
and I value the truth for the truth,
and it's something that I should be, you
know, thinking about.
So as we as we wrap up here,
I think one of the questions that I
heard, from the brother,
and that's something that's interesting and important to
me as well is like so,
you know, obviously from that point, you went
on to study that in India, that is.
You studied in Egypt,
in Gaza. You studied in,
the medicine in Germany.
France. France. Sorry.
But I guess reflecting looking back now,
and, you know, the position that you are
now, you know, mentoring
young adults in the Masjid, the youth in
the Masjid and the parents who are dealing
with those kids,
what's some sort of,
practical lessons that you can share with us
as as we and our kids and, you
know, the youth in the community face some
of these,
challenges?
Yeah. There's there's a lot. I mean, I
think number 1, I'd say for parents particularly,
you know, role modeling Islam is one of
the most important things. Right? Taking Islam seriously
yourself and then being a good role model,
and that means, like,
praying, understanding
why you do what you do, and taking
Islam very seriously is is definitely one thing.
The second thing is being very careful
about what you teach. Right? So, like, don't
just pass off random stuff, you know,
fabricated hadith or cultural practices and not understanding
what is Islam versus what is you know,
it's because what happens is if you pass
off something wrong and you're so confident about
it, then it's gonna create a level of
skepticism in, like, your children. They're gonna be
like, well you know, like you said, if
if mom and dad, you know, lied about
this one thing or they were wrong about
this one thing, then will they be wrong
about this other? And then it just keeps
on going. Right? So, like, if I you
know, I grew up, like,
being told that, like, there's a tooth fairy.
You know? And, like, it's like and then
you grow up and you're like, oh, mom
and dad, you know, they just made up
the whole tooth fairy thing and you realize
it was not true and all that stuff
and Santa Claus coming down the chimney and
all that. We were you know, your kids,
you're gonna believe in that stuff. And parents
think, like, sometimes, you know, when you do
these little white lies or whatever, it doesn't
affect kids, but it does. It does and
it has a greater effect than you could
possibly imagine. Right? So even when it comes
to the religion, it's very important that you
don't pass off culture as being part of
the religion, that you take your Islam seriously,
that you implement these things in your life
and and encourage kids through your own practice
as well, but encourage them to have a
deep understanding of Islam. If we focus only
on a superficial understanding of Islam, just learn
to recite Quran
and learn to,
memorize surahs of the Quran
or just memorize things
without understanding the deeper meaning of why. And
we live in a society which challenges you.
We live in a society that talks about
trying to understand,
you know, why things happen and the you
know, any subject you take, you, like, try
to understand the detail of why and what's
the rationale and the wisdom behind it. And
then if Islam is like, there's no why
and there's no questions and there's you know,
you shouldn't even question and all that stuff,
you shut down the questioning. That's very detrimental.
So be open, you know, to questions, legitimate
questions. Have a good, strong, solid foundation. Be
consistent in what you do,
and just be a really good role model
and invest.
I would say invest in good
Islamic studies programs. It's it's
it's not something you can still talk. It's
not something you'd be like, you know, k.
There's 3 Islamic
classes.
Let's go with the cheapest one because, you
know, that teacher, they charge half the price
of the other one. So you don't do
that when it comes to buying a car,
and you don't do that when it comes
to,
your own education. You know, look, you you
wanna go to, like, a better school or
a better this or bet so we really
need to take Islam very seriously, and that'll
automatically
resonate and help with the kids.
Exactly.
Do we have time for the audience?
We'll start with the sisters and shall just
raise your hand, and we'll come to the
brothers. I'll come to the mic.
Oh, sisters are quiet. I'll just go to
the brother here.
So I was a little bit late today.
I just wanna find out one thing for,
could you please,
let us know just a bit what it
really,
prompted you in the first place
to move away from Islam. Is there any
particular class that he took?
Or maybe I I might get to miss
that. And what book it is,
that really,
forced you to move away from Islam.
Okay. So, I mean, you'd have to probably
watch the video Okay. On that one. I
can tell you the book is called critiques
of God. Okay. And the next thing is,
is there any way you can,
suggest some of the maybe some of the
books that they could be given to the
young folks
to, to understand better
from their perspective
when, you know, they're
going to the highest and so on. What
are the books that you can think of
and all? Sure. So the books that I
would recommend for you today so the youth
that are struggling with the issues that I
was going through, one of the best books,
I think, is,
God, Islam, and the Skeptic Mind.
There's 2nd edition. Maybe there's a 3rd edition
out now. That's one of the really good
ones.
If someone's not struggling with those issues particularly,
I recommend foundational books like,
Islam in Focus by Hamud Hamud, Hamud Abdul
Lathi.
Old book as a scholar, but it's a
good book. I recommend Towards Understanding Islam by
Mudhudi.
I recommend,
Road to Makkah, the autobiography
of Muhammad Assad.
I recommend Islam the Natural Way by Abdul
Wahid Hamid.
It is a good start. I have I
have a list on my website, mustafomor.com,
of, like, books that I recommend. So for
different ages.
Mike, what are we? No.
Sisters are very quiet tonight.
Oh, never mind.
So you said your girlfriend,
converted to Islam. Right? So did her parents
knew about it?
It's a good question.
Yeah.
No. They didn't no. She wore her job
outside the house. So, no, her parents didn't
know because her parents were atheists and they
were communist. Actually, she was Vietnamese.
So she was very afraid of her parents
because her parents were anti religion. They were
anti Christian,
and they were anti anti any religion, actually.
So I think her elder sister, if I
recall correctly, her elder sister wanted to become
a Christian,
and her family was very upset about it.
So she decided not to tell her parents
about becoming Muslim.
Very nice journey.
You started
about the week in the school as babysitting,
and I know that.
But as you give advice to the parents
to be role modeling, what's the advice to
give to the community?
Message,
week in the school.
What do we need to do also as
a community and week in the school to
help
the kids
growing up in healthy
environment?
No. Great question.
Hopefully, we have 2 more hours for me
to
give all my advice on this thing. I
would say, you know, first and foremost,
the
we need to focus on
what are the most,
attended
aspects of a masjid
by the average Muslim community,
and we need to make sure that
that is the best experience. So for well,
I'll say what I mean. Number 1, the
chutba
is the most important function in the American
Muslim community. Right? It's the main contact that
all Muslims have with the minimal amount of
Islam that they're gonna
get. So the chutba
needs to be of the highest quality.
That means that when you're bringing speakers in,
you need to make sure that they're qualified
speakers.
You need to make sure that they're not
only qualified, but they're trained public speakers. You
know, this is the the problem is we
either have very charismatic speakers, but they don't
have Islamic knowledge, or we have people which
have very good Islamic knowledge, but they're not
trained to be public speakers.
So I really believe that
the community needs to invest
in the highest quality khatib because the khutba
is like the 20 minute, 25 minute
highest quality, most impact to the general Muslim
community. The khutba needs to be the highest
quality. You need to take the people and
make sure that they have Islamic knowledge, and
they need to send them to, like, the
Carnegie Institute to, like, learn public speaking and
learn to really like, a khatib should be
putting in, like, 5 to 10 hours prep
time
into a chutba because of the amount of
impact that it's gonna have. But you also
need to make sure that if they're employed,
the masjid understands that they need that time.
That that's a investment of time that's gonna
have a major impact. So the khutba needs
to be really powerful.
The masjid experience, the Jummah experience needs to
be really, really good as well. Everything from
announcements to how you feel to traffic flow
to parking
resolving the parking problem because that's gonna bring
have the maximum effect. Then when it comes
to Islamic education, Islamic education
needs a lot of investment to be very
high quality.
And what I believe is that there's 2
types of of of parents.
There's get when it when it comes to
kids' education, there's a type of parents
who are happy with the babysitting model. And
if they're happy with the babysitting model,
then at least they're gonna get something, but
there should be a simultaneous
another option.
And, basically, you need to present to parents
and say, listen. We have 2 programs.
One of them
is the babysitting model. We give you a
little bit of Islamic education, but then there's
another one. It costs a little bit more
money. It takes a little bit more time
and investment,
but this is the higher quality program.
And
you encourage and say, this is what your
kids get out of a high quality program,
and this is what your kids get out
of the low quality program. And then you
let parents decide what do they want to
have. But you can what you cannot do
is you cannot combine both of them together
because what you do is if you have
high quality kids and high quality families coming
in, then the ones who are not interested
in that will actually bring them down. So
we need to have an elite program,
and we need to have the common program
for everybody else. And, of course, we should
be able to transfer back and forth between
the two programs. This is what I've always
advocated for youth groups. So I say, you
know what, someone? If if the kids are
serious, but their parents are not serious,
you talk to the kids and say, you
seem to be quite serious. Would you like
to transfer into the serious program? And you
let them. And you and the and the
parents are very serious, but the kids are
not, they they got into the this program
and said, listen. You don't really seem like
you wanna be here. You seem like your
parents just threw you here. We're not gonna
pressure you to be here. If you really
don't wanna be here, you can transfer back
to the the more fun fun and games
program, and you let them.
And, therefore, now everyone is in the right
place where they really wanna be,
and
now you have responsibility.
If someone comes out and says, you know
what? I put them in Islamic school. Islamic
school should've fixed the problem. Say, well, which
one did you put them in? In the
quality one or in the the the regular
one? Oh, you did the low quality one
because you didn't want to spend the money?
You didn't want to put the time? Well,
what did you expect?
That's what you got. Right? And then no
one can come back and be like, well,
what happened? I don't understand why my kid
is having doubts about Islam and doesn't want
to come to the masjid. Well, that's what
you invested in. So I think we need
to really think about these models and and
develop them and invest a lot into education.
Assalamu alaikum brother.
I don't have a question but I want
to let you know that, this is really
the best 2 hours that I spend this
week but amazing storytelling.
Now I know who's the imam who sold
us for our international.
Thank you. You you
could.
K. So we conclude with the dua.
Oh, Allah, strengthen our ima and strengthen our
faith. Oh, Allah, help our youth and help
people who are going through struggles. Oh, Allah,
help people who are going through doubts about
your religion. Oh, Allah, help us to take
Islam very seriously. Oh, Allah,
help
us to realize our purpose in life and
why you've created us. O'ala, help us to
establish the resources for our community to help
resolve these doubts and to have a strong,
high quality Islamic educational program in our community.
Well, help us and guide us at all
times and in all things we do.