Should we all be getting excited by Debates?

Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari

Channel: Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari

Topics: Comparative Religion

Episode Notes

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It is extremely sad that the only excitement and enjoyment many Muslim youth get from the deen – and for some, their only involvement – is by getting embroiled in controversies, polemics, debates, seeing people argue, refutations, etc… Referring to the general masses and not those that are directly involved in polemical dialogue. Rather than spend time in worshiping Allah, perfect one’s prayer, fulfill the rights of Allah and the creation and engage in productive activities, so many people today are hooked on the quarrels and disputes that take place between different groups/sects/religious leaders.

Episode Transcript

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Bismillah

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Alhamdulillah wa Salatu was Salam ala rasulillah

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especially brothers and sisters

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warahmatullahi wabarakatuh.

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I would like to ask you a question, what are you really excited by these days,

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you could be excited by

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food, you can be excited by a upcoming holiday. You could be getting married soon, you can be excited by that. You could be graduating soon, with some family event taking place. Or you might be excited about a football match that's taking place between Liverpool and Manchester City, for example. Or you might be excited by a boxing match between I don't really know who is Habib and Joshua and who was you know, you might be excited by some. That's your entertainment. Different people like to get excited by different things. If you're a bit religious, and a bit more practicing,

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bit connected to the

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connected with Islamic knowledge, then maybe you're very excited by debates.

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We are currently living in a time I feel that it is

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a calamity. It's

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It's a sad situation and calamity of the era. That the only excitement certain Muslims get from the deen. And for some people this is their only involvement when it comes to D. This is the only involvement. So there might be some of the involvement but it's a very brief type of involvement

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is that they like to get embroiled embroiled and involved in controversies in polemics in debates, in reputations, culture reputations, in people arguing, this is the only buzz that some of our young people especially receive and obtain from Dean and from religion sadly.

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And we are living in this current climate and this is why I mentioned this

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that

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I seriously feel that we need to think where our priorities are. Here. First of all, I'm not really talking about the people who actually debate I am talking about me and you, the general public, the general masses,

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first and foremost, that for us, our Deen becomes so boring, praying fastings a god you know, fulfilling the rights of Allah and fulfilling the rights of his servants, serving the deen

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doing beneficial positive things, spending time in the worship of Allah trying to recite the Quran and understand the Quran reading some books,

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or attending lectures about

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Islamic rulings. We think these things are boring, our excitement is with this is suddenly a nature human nature we get excited get the buzz from argumentations all these different

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political polemical augmentations, and quarrels and fights and disputes that take place between all the various groups. And I don't even like to mention the names but like, you know, the Deobandi and the barelvi and the Sufi under Salafi under Sharia and morality, the never ending debates.

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It seems that some of us are hooked on these corals. we thrive on it. You know, so many of us love the drama. It's like, a never ending soap opera. We're waiting for the next episode. Oh hoo challenge to people get excited, or did you see the debate? I was in another country once in America, Canada. And people. The first thing they asked me, oh, did you know in your country in England, did you see that debate away? Do you know about that debate? I said there's more important things in Islam than who debate who I couldn't care less with who debates who. So we get excited by you know, this scholar, this show of challenging this person. The only discussion is about Oh, did

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you see that debate and who won the debate? It's like, you know, the entertainment we get from

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a football match a football rivalry. You know, they are Liverpool fans, Manchester, United fans, people, you know, this is the discussion that people do, but this is with a religious flavor. It's a boxing match. You know, people have their own sort of cults or their own rivalry and the old side, this is my shirt or my group. And it's, it's a human nature. You know.

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It's the nature of the human that you need to fulfill that aspect of your nature.

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So, with a religious flavor, it's the same type of enjoyment that people get from football rivalries or boxing matches. Sadly, many of us are less interested in day to day rules of Islam.

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Have an arranger course, on the physical fasting, a handful of people write something about the prohibition of backbiting, or the benefits or reciting on a word on the messenger, sallAllahu, Alayhi, wasallam or, you know, these aspects of deed, even on social media, if we write on Facebook things about, you know, rites of Allah rights of the slaves of a law, very few people like the message or comment, just put one message about, oh, this group or this scholar or this reputation, and you've got tons of people commenting and debating and you know, giving that, to pence to it.

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Social media is a mass, it's filled with these controversies. No, it's sad that you know, sometimes there'll be one person, one scholar or one person or one individual, he will write a post about his reputation on argumentation with this group or that scholar. And there'll be so many people commenting, you know, some for some, again, some praising some hating, and then they start bickering amongst themselves as well underneath No, no, you're wrong. And you're and disrupt. And it's just for two, three days. It's just like comments after comments. And I don't read this, but I know that this happens, it's just

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wastage of time. And then the other group, they that other shareholder, other group, he will also post a counter refutation and then all his fans. Yeah, all his followers, they will comment and there'll be for and against, and somebody will be undercover from here putting a comment there and there'll be somebody undercover from there. Putting a comment here is just never ending arguments, never ending soap opera that continues, and it's just a fitting of the time.

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Seriously, we're really wasting our time with these things. And I would, this is my advice for the general public.

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That's let's not get involved in these debates or these

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these polemical reputation on argumentations and quarrels and disputes that take place.

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value or time, spend it in positive things in worshipping Allah getting close to Allah subhanho wa Taala getting close to Allah messenger sallallahu alayhi wa sallam learn your deen practice your deen offer your five time prayers you might be arguing and debating late night and then you don't offer just Allah in the morning in congregation, spend time in worshiping Allah bettering yourself as a Muslim as a human being good characteristics. This is not we don't even have enough time to work on ourselves, our hearts, our inner selves and be better people. We

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need to spend more time on that not waste time in being, you know, entertained by these religious rivalries. Really we need to

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look at this

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you know, sometimes what happens that after these debates people continue common commentating on the debates and then there's like versions of who won the debate. There's there's a debate about who won the debate. So the group the followers of this show, or this group will say they won they will release a video that no we won our share one and then the swear and

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so this is my sincere advice

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for general problems at least don't do if you don't want to do all the positive things then at least don't do the negative things stop adding fuel to the fire. My I personally think that just do not watch these debates if you start watching them the people who debating they'll stop doing the debates openly in front of the people because

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they've got an audience. Some people just do the debates because they know they'll get more YouTube clicks. So more money you know they like to talk about controversial issues because they know that people are sensationalist. They like something which is controversial. You know, put a video a YouTube video and say, share such and such exposed massive cross one don't listen, the share has become a copier. Oh yes, yes, so many clicks, or a YouTube video clip

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of a Salah with crucial concentration of boring Islam, offering Salah with concentration exposed by lb coffee or Deobandi coffee or the Shia, you know, and it's like, you know, everyone is entertained by it. And this is why there's an audience and I sincerely advise people, stop being an audience stop being entertained, stop adding fuel to the fire to the people who are debating and arguing. Let them just debate and carry on. You don't need to get involved. And if you stop being involved, then they will stop doing it.

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They probably do it in private because there's no audience, right now when there's an audience,

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then they will do it. When there's an audience for a sport, then people will charge amounts high amounts for tickets, because they know people whatever happens they it's something that sells.

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So

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do not get involved in these debates. Don't talk about them, don't discuss them. You work on your own self, we should work on our own selves and busy ourselves with a bother with working on our own selves. We all have flaws, and in terms of religious matters, identify those who you trust, and then your deen from them and get busy to action. Busy in Amman.

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I remember I mean, this is more like a modern day issue. Because when you know when, when I was young, when we were growing old, there was no social media. There's no like YouTube, there's no, there's no way you can see debates, you might hear a debate somewhere that's happening in the 10th of June somewhere up in Scotland. So you know, people will send a letter or something and there might be an announcement or somebody told you and you'll hire a coach to go down there or something. I don't know. I've never been to one. But that was the closest somebody could attend to debate.

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Now it's like a click of a button on YouTube and everywhere. And so because of that the fitness is great. And we really need to seriously think where our priorities lie. This was my message just to the general public, all of us.

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I also have a message for those people who debate who are actually involved in the debate.

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People who like to debate about religious matters about polemical matters about issues of appeal about different groups, Sufi Salafi Deobandi Wahhabi barelvi, whatever she are Sunni, whatever, different debates.

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And a very respectfully, I will say, because many are connected to

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sacred knowledge, that we really need to think that is the real serious benefit in these debates. Have you really thought about whether there's more harm, or is there more benefit?

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If the benefits outweigh the harms, then maybe you should go and debate in front of the public. But have we really thought that

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are the benefits outweighing the harm? And I think even if there's a considerable amount of harm, then we should avoid it. But in this case, I personally feel that the harm is outweighing the benefit. The Quran prohibited alcohol with mahoma achema. Even alcohol had a bit of benefit. The Quran says there's a bit of benefit in drinking wine, whiskey, Brandy alcohol, but and even you know if muma referring to

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is gambling, right? Yes. AKA BARROWMAN. neferet Hema,

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so a bit of benefit, but harm is much more the Quran prohibited it.

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So this is something that we seriously need to think. And this is why many scholars actually

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they seriously reprimanded against all caution. Sorry, that's the word I'm looking for cautioned against religious debates, you might say. But there's a bit of debate in this purely mobile hanifa debated non Muslims, even with non Muslim debating, there's a there's laws and etiquette and a double applicable hikmah Well, no other than Hashanah with wisdom call towards invite towards your Lord. But I'm not talking about non Muslims here. Muslims have different backgrounds, you have a different opinion, or whatever, you know, a key the issue.

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So you people bring up that Oh, but didn't this share who this person in history didn't didn't? Didn't they debate they debated?

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There's a massive difference. This is why one of the recent scholars of the subcontinent, one of the great scholars who came along chef Maulana Ashraf ritonavir, I'm Allah. He's briefly wrote about debating because he looked at in his time, and this was like good, maybe 7080 years ago, more than 7080 100 years

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ago. And he wrote, which is the article is online, one of my friends known as shell Java cabal, he actually translated this. It's available online, and I've got it here the harms of polemical debating in today's era.

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It's taken from one of his books, Nevada, Nevada.

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And his I won't read all of this, but he has, like he says, debating with respect to its objective. So what's the objective of debating debating is a few times and then he mentioned 1234. Just to summarize, he said the first situation or the first type, in terms of the objective of debating to make evident what is right so your objective is that you want to make what is

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And help you think the truth. You want to make that apparent and evident to the people.

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Even if the opponent does not go quiet, in which case the debater will not concern himself with silencing him. So his he will not concern that whether that person is silenced or not, or you know, he won the debate or not, that's not his objective.

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Therefore, when you see when this person sees that other person is stubborn, then he just says look for us are our deeds for you or your deeds looking to you know, Cambodia in Morocco, Morocco and America and you just move away and the Quran is filled with this type of debate.

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And this is why she would return where he actually He called this he said aluna Farah and Mata Mata are of El menara. Muna for like, showing resentment or dislike nefra dislike towards

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the monado in Arabic equal debating lunala. So the Moodle out of the common Managua that takes place. And then he says, then he goes to the second type,

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to silence the opponent, this is also praiseworthy, provided the intention is good. However, this is dependent on the opponent becoming silent. If you're stubborn or a troublemaker, and does not have any shame, he will not be quiet. So therefore he will not be silent. So this is like it's not going to work. So therefore intending this objective is to intend something which you have no power over. And therefore this is something you know, it's not going to happen. So even this debate type of debate is out of the question. And then he mentioned the third one that to silence the opponent. And then this is actually achieved, however, because becoming silence is not proof that this person who

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is totally silence is wrong. This is also a few times where he's trying to say, and this is actually a very important point, because you know, one of the problems with debating is that people think the victory is based on who spoke well, you know, when to people like debating one person speaks well, it doesn't mean that he speaks well that he is on the truth. People will make the decision based on you know, some people have the gift of the GOP, they are able to speak, you can have a non Muslim winning a debate against a Muslim because he spoke well, he just knows how to converse very well spoken. There's a Hadith of the messenger sallallahu sallam, you know, once he gave a decision, I

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can't quote it exactly in favor of somebody. And then he said, Look, when you come to me, you know, you speak the way you speak sometimes, apparently. So the audience will look at who's speaking well.

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So anyway, he mentioned these four, you can read it and we can put the link in Sharla at the bottom of the video, that there is really no benefit of debating in our times. And he also said the way debates are conducted today is not from the way of the self to Quran debates with the disbelievers in many places, but its style is amazing. It is nothing like the noisy corals of today. Hakeem Aloma says in today's era debating is extremely harmful because it has no praiseworthy objective behind it. The objective is predominantly to disgrace the opponent and show one's own point to be superior. The objective is not established truth. So this is why

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in this day and age, you know, there's

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the harms outweigh the benefits. And seriously, you know, like I said,

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in Arabic debating is called menorah. One of my teachers wanted to talk with me half of the whole lot I heard this from him in one of the lessons that he mentioned this, and it's actually written about this as well. He says menorah is from the Arabic word another.

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Another means to study something to look into something. And in Arabic monada is Bob bufala. When two people collectively, two people, Allah Masha Allah moussaka, Phil facory, another two people are participating. So it's not it's like a dialogue. It's like a discussion. It's supposed to be if it's a monada rather than one other means Okay, this is your opinion, this is mine. Okay. So when you say this, I have an objection each call on this, that what about this delille that counters this. So the other person says, Yeah, that deal, but my understanding of that deal is that maybe this count is done. Really? What do you think? You know, it's like a nice CODEL discussion. If you look at today's

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debates, absolutely country, especially looking look at some of the debates don't look at but you know, some of the debates on subcontinent just type the word menara on YouTube, and seriously, some of the craziest debates, so called debates that take place in the Indian subcontinent, especially in Pakistan, but maybe in Indian Bangladesh as well, where people are raising the voices quarreling, shouting

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Screaming

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pulling books you know, give me some here Buhari notice that this text and this evidence and I've seen places where people have actually ripped pages from books

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and there's places where there's physical violence. Where's the justification for that? craziness, absolute craziness. Where are the etiquettes the manners and adapt of conversing with anyone?

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One of the etiquette is do not cut someone else in the midst of their conversation with Dr. kurama. Corinne, read me a double Islam of Chicago photographer.

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This has to be applied even in a debate when someone's speaking you can't cut up that person.

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The messenger sallallahu Ellison said letter for our squatter condition the Quran is wonderful letter for our swatter come focus of the newbie, but generally, his Sierra was the hub and shouting, screaming, quarreling.

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These etiquettes are not observed talking over each other fighting, pulling up books name calling, calling each other Jah Hill and ignorant and faster Can you know, the problem is that it becomes more personal and ego based. It's invoked by ego. You know the person who's debating because we all humans when you're in debating, majority of the time and I'm not trying to

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question anyone's intention, but it seems apparently all these debates, that it's more personal. The person feels that I shouldn't be disrespected, or I shouldn't be looked down upon. more concerned about personal victory.

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So it's not about the truth being manifest. Look, I'll tell you, these are some quotes look at your mama chef. Run the Allahu anhu and what word ah.

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It is related from Imam Mohammed. Bin Idris Sherif Rahim Allah. He says there's many quotes from him, but I'll just read one or two quotes. He says mccullom to 102 illa Allah obelisk Dianna Allahu Akbar Allah Allah Sana he Alyssa neola. Sonny. I never spoke I had a dialogue with anyone except I don't care a love brings a truth on my tongue on his tongue doesn't really matter. So the objective is for the truth to come out. This is an alphabetical motherfucker.

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Look at this quote.

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Mr. Chef, he says, Man, burrito hadn't occurred to Alibaba. I've never debated anyone to have a victory.

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Never debated any one type of victory.

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Man at all novel, I had an

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idea. I've never debated anyone. It's not even debate dialogue. And I wanted that person to be in mistaken era.

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And there's another quote which I heard from a doctor with money, you know, directly in one of his lessons, but I couldn't recall the reference when I searched for it. He said, Mom, Chef, Mo law said,

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Man are the two headed when you know Illa I never debated anyone except that I wanted the truth to come on his time. I wanted him to be victorious and me to lose. Because the objective is because I'm scared about myself that if I win, and what about if I'm wrong, and people follow me? So I want me to be proven wrong. So that then Okay, the evidence is off for his side. And then he is actually on the truth. And then at least people follow him and he takes responsibility. This was the debate. These were the type of debates or discussions and dialogues, the selected. Does anybody go into debate today? That Yeah, I don't care, but I lose a win. Just you know, with sincerity. It's ego

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based.

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It's about personal victory. It's about like, you know, I don't want to be disrespected, you know, my knowledge people should see no, I can talk I can challenge and I have all the knowledge. I have this book and have this read that book and it's no that's how it comes across.

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So anyway, concluding

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this is this. Yeah. So I was saying that you set up with Manny Harvey, the whole law he mentioned in that the word menorah is it's like Mashallah. It's just a mutual dialogue. It's, it's like a discussion that we do. And this is a quote from one of his books with the duck with money says due to our misfortune, the impression we have of debates these days, is that it refers to a sectarian battleground where two headstrong wrestlers sees every just an unjust tactic. So you use any just or unjust tactic to try and bring down the other person. And in the middle of all of this, the urge to seek the truth is left behind and suppressed. Then he says lift it up with money having the whole la

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monada is an Arabic word.

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The meaning of which is to collectively ponder over a particular issue of a cup of coffee and have a discussion. Just collectively, let's just study it, no problem. So that's the real monada or debate or dialogue or discussion.

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So this is why

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debating these days, seriously, there's more harm than benefit. Because it's become personal ego based, the etiquettes of conversing are overlooked. The adab are not observed, the manners of interaction are not observed. And sometimes, you know, I've seen also, people do some things which are unlawful, like swearing slandering and talking, but I've even seen some people recording phone calls without telling the other person that you're recording the phone, phone conversation is not even allowed, and then putting it up on YouTube.

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I've seen this so many times, even in the subcontinent, where this w jamara people they arguing and debating and you know, so they, they provoke people call certain scholars, Salaam Alaikum. Allah I am brother to such and such, I need to ask you a Muslim question and then is recording and just you know, trying to, you know, in Panama, like creating fitna it's like, you know, you've got some mental health issue or what like, you know, it's just,

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you know, they just want friction or some like, you know, people want to just fight and Quarrel and bring fitna into the world.

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So, this is not allowed language used sometimes is haram language

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is used. Sometimes people say but looking for those people, they're doing this or why don't we do that? Well, two wrongs don't make a right. If someone is debating using foul language or somebody refuting you or your group or your teachers or your scholars swearing slandering, you don't have to get low to that level. This was the way of the all the prophets they will call mage noon they used to say, you know, I'm not much known. Oh my people

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was that I have the Quran, laser bisa Hutton wala Kimura surah Mirabella al amin the people of the prophets this to say your Majnoon your your days, and they never responded with swearing. They just say look, this is how it is. And you know, and a story our setup same thing. There was a scholar from the subcontinent somebody called him that you're an illegitimate child. He said, Oh, actually you've got misinformation my father and mother they were married and witnesses are still alive, I can take you to them and see them and meet them so you can you know, just find out for yourself if I'm illegitimate illegitimate child, rather than say no, you you and your dad is also legitimate

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religion, this is how people out of anger will do all the prophets This is how the devil was.

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So you can refute sorry, you can respond but responding according to your way not according to their way.

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So anyway, concluding these debates that take place the most of them turn out to be disasters.

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You know, probably you've seen India, Pakistan, wherever England wherever they take place. Mostly. They involve haram activities. Because there's quarreling, shouting, raising of voices to suspecting hurting the feelings of others. Or because all these rules they are necessary to follow whether you're in a marketplace or whether you're having a religious debate, it doesn't mean that Hara those things no longer become necessary or they no longer haram and unlawful when you're having a religious dialogue. So because of that, and most of the most of the time, they turn out to be disasters. Nobody really wins. Nobody really.

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The truth is never manifest. The people on this group will always stay on this group. The people on this group will always stay on this group. No one gets convinced by anybody. This is why these things should not be in the public. Scholars should privately behind closed doors have a discussion if you really want the truth for your own selves.

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So

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lots of heroin, things take place. I had some time some people bring some violent thugs with them as well, can become violent, you know, it's crazy. And this is why my medical hangover the atoms used to say, a mirror neuron.

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argumentation about matters of religion can take away the light of element, the light of knowledge.

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You know, I know few scholars and I've remembered one Sherman mandurah normani Rahim Allah used to before debate certain groups towards the end of his life. He actually said that I really regret and I lament the fact that I spent so much of my time just debating and arguing with people from different groups. I wish I spend my time in just doing something else. And then he's, he stopped doing that. And he started writing his famous commentary called my article, Hadith in many volumes. So when people are young, this happens to them. And that's why I personally feel that those of you who want to debate

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either, you know, I feel that it's better than they should be.

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disgust number one behind closed doors, nice discussion dialogue behind closed doors, the public don't need to see it, or do it in written format because only the intelligent people read because nowadays, that's a problem. Everyone views videos, but nobody reads. So people who are really interested academically write an academic response. That's how people used to do write a book write an article with in an academic way. So it's not for the public, there's no drama, this is not like arena, this is not a boxing match. This is not Wembley Stadium, whatever. So it's not a wrestling ground or a battleground. It's just an academic response.

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And as a last resort, maybe post a refutation in video format, rather than sitting together and you know, having a disaster, okay, if you disagree with somebody, their views, you post a video, but this is our view, but again, making sure ensuring all the basic rules and etiquette are observed. No slandering, no swearing, no looking down upon who knows the other person is better than this is how we do Darwin, we always feel that the person better than me, so with humility, you know, I, I disagree with this view of yours, but you, you know, you feel inside it, that other person is better than you some of the scholars who say that I feel every Muslim is better than me, and every non

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Muslim is potentially better than me, the way you come in as a, you know, constantly, you know,

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what's the word like in a

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arrogant fashion.

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condescending fashion is like when we talk in debating, we feel we're better than that person, it just appears in a religious flavor with you, we're better.

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So with humility, post a video.

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So these are the three ways we're three alternatives to debates. And this is an absolute last point, that

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when we do these debates,

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the majority of the general public, like I said, they just love the entertainment value to it. But what will happen, they will either be of the following four, very quickly. Number one, those that don't really understand what's going on, they don't even understand the words and Arabic terms you're using, etc. all the integrant issues. They just enjoy an entertainment and have fun and get involved in haram because they're swearing slandering, taking sides, rather than go and watch a football match. So or just go and play some football, play some tennis, it's better if you're going to do harm here. So majority of them don't really even understand what's going on. So the your

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public audience will be of four types of people, those who don't really understand anything, they just love the entertainment and get involved and start discussing and wasting their time and maybe do haraam activities as well by swearing slandering.

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Number two, those that get even more confused, confused than they were before. They were you know, nicely praying or doing something but after the debate now they're like, confused. So you just cause them confusion. Number three, those that just laugh at both parties and think both are fools.

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Majority do the religious thing is like movies or is fighting. You know, Masha? Allah mentions Hakeem Aloma that in the subcontinent, the Hindus, they were so entertained by some movies who are debating that they used to say, let's go to the place this visit mentioned, I'll read the quote as well. It says here, that on the day of the debate in moradabad, Akiva, Lama says there was so much noise about the debate that even the Hindus were saying, Let's go to the Shah, he mosque to see the mole was fighting.

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The Hindus came to see the entertainment.

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So those that just laugh at both parties, and number four, and this is really serious, those that actually start doubting Islam itself.

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A few years ago, an individual told me that he left Islam or he was close to leave Islam. And I think he said he left Islam, because he got so confused by all the bickering and fighting he saw between different groups and this group, fighting with this group and this scholar refuting that scholar. He said, I went there, then I came back to this side, and I went back there, I thought this was right. And then I thought, you know what, it's just too confusing. And he became an atheist in

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Iran. So these are the four scenarios or four possibilities of your audience. Rather than that, don't do your debates in front of the public have a private dialogue, or the other methods if somebody is openly refuting your views or your scholars or whatever, then you can openly send into a refutation video but again, you don't have to stoop down to their level. Follow the prophetic way of hikmah of wisdom of good preaching mo editing has no Hidayat guidance in the hands of Allah. We don't have to like preach in a way that we have to

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turn everyone's minds to be like our mind or our we do it for the sake of Allah reward you can get reward

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By doing something else the idea is not everyone has to be swayed. You don't have to turn everyone. You do whatever you can have the life happens if it happens if it doesn't happen, you've got your reward. You've got your ninja anyway.

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Hey Allah grant us at all future Sakamoto Salaam Alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh