Muhammad Carr – Scholars Brought Here as Slaves Became Saviours
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Assalamu alaikum, brother and sister. And welcome to
this special episode of the unscripted podcast with
your host, Salman Butt and we're in
sunny Cape Town. Well, it's not sunny. It's
it's actually,
it is July but it's winter
because it's Very cold winter. Very cold until
hamdah. We're in Cape Town South Africa. We
came here for,
a very special visit and we have 2
very special guests today. And I'd like to
just thank,
Isnat Academy for giving us
the opportunity to use this wonderful studio. Mashallah.
So please do check them out. We'll put
their,
their kind of links in the description. But
without any further ado, I'd like to welcome
our esteemed guest. We have Molana Mohammed
Karr.
Did I say it right? 100%. 100%. It's
actually but okay. Yeah. Okay. And we have,
Molana Zakaria
Harnakar.
I think
we usually say it Anika but you know
we can go with whatever. Hanakar.
Yeah, Hanakar. Okay, Alhamdulillah.
So we met earlier on today, we visited
with Shaykh Haitham to your nice masheri
madrasah
And, just a conversation that we were having
with with some of the teachers there in
the masha'ikh. It was I was really, you
know, inspired and I wanted to get kind
of this opportunity to speak to you,
both here. So,
just for the benefit of the audience,
I know you're kind of ashallatabarikala.
Big shots in South Africa, but can you
just assume nobody, you know, to somebody who
doesn't
know you, has never heard of you, how
would you describe how would you introduce yourselves
in terms of your your interests and your
background?
I know obviously you're going to be humble
so we'll add all the extra No that's
quite an easy assumption to make because that's
actually what I think so.
Let's
go. Alhamdulillah.
So how would you maybe describe
your first your position in
the madrasah or you know
in the community here
and
your interests. InshaAllah.
So don't don't jump at once.
No. It's not appropriate. My teacher.
Okay. My teacher commanded you.
So Assalamu alaikum
al Quran
al
Quran
al Quran al Quran al Quran al Quran
al Quran al Quran al Quran al Quran
al Quran al Quran al Quran Imam Qurani
Institute For Islamic Studies.
And,
I get involved in some of the administration
administrative matters Mhmm.
When
I'm told to by Mawlana Muhammad.
Muhammad. In addition to that, alhamdulillah,
in in Cape Town we we have a
number of institutions running and so involved in
some of them. I teach at
a part time institute called the Mizan Institute,
as well as a,
and a school
like, which goes from, like, pre,
like preschool, basically,
up until high school.
And that the name of that school is
the Qutiri Quranic School. I think it's quite,
pioneering,
so it's it's very good.
And then I also
serve at the,
Muslim Judicial Council in some capacities.
Yeah.
We visited them today as well. Alhamdulillah.
And it's like, for those listening from the
UK, it's like Islamic council,
but for South Africa.
Like this formally known as Islamic council Europe
no Islamic council. So you do Qada, you
do kind of, Qada counselling, dealing with people's
you know medical issues
looking at you know if there's
societal issues within, South Africa,
the MJC or the majesulukadal
islami
will, you know, deal with those issues, liaise
with government,
you know, deal with people's estates. The masters
will contact us for Sharia walls,
fatwa all of those things,
halal certification
all of that kind of stuff.
And
Sheikh Mohammed, Sheikh Mohammed, Mullain Mohammed Kab?
Where do we begin?
So I'm,
when you said begin, I thought about the
Awal Masjid.
So,
Alhamdulillah, I'm fortunate to,
serve with, one of our leading,
Quran
and scholars in Cape Town, Sheikh Islam.
So I'm the co imam at the Awal
Masjid.
It's the 1st Masjid established in
Cape Town South Africa. South Africa and the
southernmost
part of Africa, Alhamdulillah.
So,
I think I've been there or we've been
there for about the past 10 years. Alhamdulillah.
I think it's
a it's an honor and a privilege,
though I'm not,
qualified for that particular post, but Alhamdulillah, we
serve there in the Masjid.
And then,
I just happened to get myself caught up
in a number of different things,
and one of those things was like Like
the podcast.
The podcast.
And,
Alhamdulillah, bathegrace and mercy of Allah
enables these things.
I'm thinking
of
That means something happens of goodness, then
let that not be a cause of rejoice.
But, the fact that it stems from Allah
through you, let that be a cause of
rejoice for you.
And just today, actually, when they
when when you people came to the madrasa
and then so,
I thought I was late actually,
but,
when,
as Allah would have it, I was, I
don't know, fortunately or unfortunately early.
So,
when I came there and then,
post meeting
with,
your honored selves and also our esteemed guest,
That's really the esteemed guest in the form
of Sheikh Alaytham
and also,
Adaa Allah.
The call to Allah,
Ustad Hamza.
Mhmm. So we were really honored to
really receive you your people there, and you
certainly,
enlightened the place. And I think the students
really enjoyed it. Yeah. They they really, really
enjoyed it. The youngsters, they came out, they're
like, well, these people from YouTube are here.
Absolutely.
It was a treat for them as well.
Post sitting there, I was I was just
genuinely thinking about, like, what is my role
in in in all of what's happening over
here.
And,
I find the the the the I don't
know if I'm able to express this properly.
In my mind, it made kinda sense to
me.
It's
I'm just
facilitating.
Allah has employed me,
to facilitate
for,
this goodness to happen. And for that, I'm
eternally grateful.
So in terms of our institution,
we have, alhamdulillah,
very,
great staff
in terms of,
the expertise and the ability.
And, the simple role that I play at
the madrasa is just facilitating and enabling,
that to happen.
Sometimes the staff will argue to the contrary,
but I think that's the reality of of
what's
happening. So I'm deeply honored to play that
particular,
role at the at the at the madrasa.
Well, Mohammed is,
skimping me. He's the co imamat Awal Masjid.
He's the principal of the,
of, Mahadul Imam al Qurani
is the head of, you know, youth organization,
Neo youth foundation, which comprise of a number
of things. One of them is a head
school. One of them is,
you know, youth activity branch. Mawlana
is serves on the Fatwa Committee,
at the Majiz Al Qadat Islami,
serves as one of the Kudat as well.
Mawlana serves on many of the Sharia compliance
boards for financial institutions in South Africa.
Molena teaches online for some international institutions.
Mhmm.
May Allah continue to Did I stop?
No. It's it's
I
wouldn't you can continue. It's very amusing for
me because
one day my brother was,
he said to me that they were,
they were introducing him so he looked at
us.
I'm
not well, I continue to you you'd And,
I think, one of the most important things
is in terms of Molina is like a
senior. Molina is my teacher personally, but to
many of the Olima, despite Molina's
not being that old, the beards fully grey,
but Mona is a senior to to to
many of us, on account of the fact
that Mona was a, you know, one of
the foremost students of Mona
was, you know our beloved
and dear teacher.
I do wanna get to know more, about
this,
the dynamics here and and the
the the the sheikh, your teacher, Rahimullah, that
you mentioned and your
inspirations. But just for for the people listening
and watching, can you can you describe
Islam in South Africa? And to introduce
Islam in South Africa because you know I've
just been here 2 days and and I've
been very impressed by and not just impressed
just to praise you guys but it's something
different
that we when I'm not used to seeing,
you know, like a Muslim minority but that
has been in this place, in a place
for,
in some areas 100 of years.
And, yeah, I just wanted to get your
your insights into Islam in South Africa.
Just, you know, imagine No. No. No.
Look, I will I only have a few
short thoughts, so I think maybe I can
go first and then, you know, the the
more pointed and profound points we leave to
one as a career. Go first.
It's a common question that's asked particularly when
you travel. Yeah.
Muslims and non Muslims alike, they would ask
about, you know, Muslims in Cape Town, in
South Africa.
Mhmm.
And and
people say that it's a
Muslim minority, but a silent majority.
And by the grace and mercy of Allah's
up until this particular point, it is quite
true
that the minority in terms of number, but,
Muslims have quite a bit of clout
in terms
of
the economy, for example. Mhmm.
And so economically, Muslims are in a good
way.
And then,
arguably,
if we go back in terms of 1994,
if we use that as
a as a starting point, you'd find that
political in Muslims were in a very good
way.
It has waned after the apartheid.
At the end of the apartheid. That was
the first elections
post apartheid. Mhmm. Muslims had a very good
in terms of cabinet representation.
So if that is a measure, then particularly
Muslims are in good way. There's a lot
of work that Muslims need to do now,
you know, 20 years later. Mhmm.
Like,
locally, they're saying that,
2024
is,
somewhat our 1994.
But, not to get into that particular discussion,
but Muslims
have always been in a good way.
And I think an indicator of that would
be that,
South African Muslims,
they don't they identify as South African Muslims.
Yeah. I I I you can maybe, help
us out with you. As well. I I
I actually asked,
just point blank some people, do you feel
like you belong here?
Or are you do you feel like an
immigrant?
You're from somewhere else?
And everyone's like, yeah, of course we belong.
This is That that whole idea is very
foreign to us. Like when somebody asks, like,
okay, you you you're a African citizen, but
where you from? Where you from. Yeah. That
question is is irrelevant to us. It doesn't
come to us. We are African, and we
identify such. Actually,
you you'd find that,
we
we have a sense of
entitlement,
a sense of belonging
that, and and that
that
we we consider ourselves more eligible
to be South Africans sometimes as more than
what other people would. Mhmm. You know, in
terms of, like there was a point in
time where
the 1 third of the population in Cape
Town was made up of Muslims.
Wow.
Very, very early on.
And, if you look at, if you look
at How early are we talking? Are we
talking?
We're talking the late 18th
century? Yeah. Okay. 1700.
So obviously when when that's like just about
the the colonizers came in about, or rather
I should say the Daseke's Indian company came
here in 1652
and the first Muslims arrived
around the same time
mid 1600
and with the influx of slaves
some of them were they would give
to
the other slaves as well as to, you
know, young
slaves that were snatched from
British colonies, Indian
slaves that were snatched from British colonies
and then sent to the Cape. So they
were sent by and large as children and
so I think a lot of them also
became Muslim at the hands of some of
the masha'if that were here. And so there
was a time when back in that mid
1700s,
I think,
where the Muslim population or the proportion of
the population in Cape Town that was Muslim
was very large.
And in the current dynamic also you find
that, in terms of the local tribes, we
see Kose Zulu,
they were mainly found inland.
And locally, you would you have the Strandlopers.
I'm not much of a, you know, the
local eastern and so forth, but they would
be along the coast, like the West Coast
and so forth. Mhmm.
So in Cape Town, like proper, you would
have
the colonials come. And with them, you know,
the very first Muslims came. So in terms
of, like, just right here on the southernmost
step,
in terms of who was here, then the
Muslims, they claim to be here very early
on
as such.
So Alhamdulillah,
we have many,
our teacher
you know, the the whole idea of Muslim
minorities.
Yeah.
I hope I'm able to express this properly.
But, you know, on the one side, he
was very optimistic.
Mhmm. And on the other side he was
also very, like, trepidatious
to a large degree because of the history
of minorities.
We have situations
whereby Muslim minorities flourished.
Alhamdulillah, Cape Town is an example of that
where it's lost now for a few 100
years. For sure. But we have other examples
like, Grenada and so forth where which would
give him that particular concern.
So it was, you know, hope and fear,
really. Yeah. But,
all things considered,
we find that he considered the the the
the minority in the in in Cape Town
to be an example really for many other,
minorities.
Yeah. Minorities. In terms you know, they talk
about this whole idea of like
a fit for minorities.
And normally, it's sort of,
like sort of sided that,
you have to have a type of fit
that is much more accommodating.
Permissive. Yeah. Permissive.
But whereas in our case,
Muslims were
they were fairly
what would be now the right expectation? They
were strict and insular in a way on
matters pertaining to marriage
and halal.
So you know very early on Muslims would
be considered very much concerned about the food
that they eat is slaughtered in the correct
way such that most of the abattoirs
in South Africa slaughter in a halal manner.
You know meat may
be considered not halal for other reasons like
maybe contamination between
things that are not halal but
most of the abattoirs they slaughter in a
halal way
and that's on account of you know Muslims
putting effort into ensuring that.
Also in terms of like
intermarriage between Muslim
males and females from the Ahlul Kitab
they took very strict positions they were actually
less permissive,
so they would say yes we recognize that
this originally is permissible in the Sharia.
You know and the madayd differ on the
conditions for that but
we're not going to conduct such marriages.
If a male wants to get married to
a female
the female must become Muslim.
If a Muslim female wants to get married
to a non Muslim male, obviously we know
that's not Muslim al Sharia, but oftentimes even
the male would become
Muslim
to facilitate such a marriage, so I mean
there was a degree of
insulation
that preserved
the Muslim identity of this minority.
I think there's one there's one important point
to that we must touch on
to understand why
Islam is so
apparent
in in Cape Town
despite us not having
being a large proportion of the society, you
know according to our last calculation we were
perhaps somewhat something like 7%
but
Islam is very apparent there's over 200 Masajid
you know the Adhan gets called out loud
in many of the areas, there's halal food
in every single area
of whatever
type you like.
Most of our fast food outlets McDonald's all
of those things are certified
not to advertise anything. Oh really? I certainly
wouldn't be advertising. You shouldn't you shouldn't have
told me that. We're actually boycotting,
we're actually boycotting.
So am I, so am I.
But
I mean like from a
from a strict charity perspective most of those
franchises are certified halal. So include KFC? KFC
as well. Okay noted.
So
I think the reason for that entrenchedness
of the Muslims in the community,
it stems from
the Muslims
not integrating
or assimilating in the society such that they
lose their identity.
Know that what I mentioned about that insulation
it maintained that identity to a large degree
but they were always involved in the matters
of the society.
So so in apartheid
despite the fact that muslims were not
close to
a majority, I mean we were a small
minority something like 2% in South Africa,
muslims were very much involved and at the
forefront
of the struggle against apartheid.
Muslims
like I think to a disproportionate
degree engage in humanitarian activity,
outreach activity and
on account of all of those things
Muslims
feel very, I don't want to say entitled
in a negative way in the society, but
we feel like we belong. Invested.
We invested in a community and we feel
like we belong and I think the society
that we live in recognizes that. In most
societies that you go in non muslims will
know about Eid,
they'll know about our food,
you know if you talk to them about
biryani or akhani, they'll they'll on Christmas
you'll find
many of the christians looking for the muslim
auntie to cook their food because
you know they like
Muslim food.
Have halal turkey. Yeah
and
you you you say it as a joke
but that's very likely the case
and they'll probably have turkey
and acne.
I'm not even joking that's like how it
would be and you know I think we
would also Muslims are a bit more reserved
in that regard but by and large when
when it comes to times of Ramadan
we have certain practices in our culture. At
the time of Iftar niceties would be made
maybe some
sweet things some savory things and people would
every night
in your household that should be prepared by
the mother the children would then take plates
small plates with a few of the things
that they've made and take one of those
to each of the neighbors
Muslim or non Muslim.
And
you know I think that created a strong
degree of neighborliness and
also the understanding
of our
faith.
So like I say I mean if you
go into a bank average community in Cape
Town
most people they will know about the main
practices of Muslims.
You're gonna get now like now
much more than before you'll find
you know some salty person complaining about the
Adhan etcetera, and I think
I'm a say it oftentimes
they are common dating in the sense that
look we're not, if fajr is extremely early
we're not going to call out Adhan in
a way that's gonna disturb you. If Aisha
is very late There's one case like that.
It was
at our Masir in.
I'm only interjecting because they said at the
beginning that Yeah. You know, you must interject
because it's like
I had to do it once at least
because I was actually thank god, thank god
you did but because You must interject. So
I thought Yeah. I'm just saying for the
viewers at home I I always tell guests
that you know don't feel so shy that
you're waiting for a question. Feel free to
interject.
But now the the fact that you've explained
it and you've you've you've kind of let
out the secret now so thanks thanks for
that. We'll have to cut that bit out
but, I'm sorry for that but there was
one incident and I think it's it's like
the balance You know? One is about, like,
being principled on on on on on on
on on on Islam
as opposed to,
compromising.
Yeah. And one of those examples which came
to mind early on was that the whole
thing of Jumuah as well. Mhmm. So we
find like in South America, for example, they
say
I'm I'm led to believe that there's a
view in the humbly, madam,
that you can,
sort of manipulate the times
in a way that, you know, to accommodate
for, you know, if you're not in an
Islamic country. Mhmm. Whereas
you're in we've never taken that position
and it's known,
if if you're at work and,
you know, you you you you're Muslim and
we're going to dodge
Jumuah.
In all likelihood, a non Muslim
is going to tell you, but aren't you
supposed to be in Jumuah?
Let's come to that particular degree. Yeah. Of
course. There was one person he was working
and he said, you were, AC Kermans, Ackermanns.
But some people say AC Kerman's just to
make it sound like, you know, but Ackerman's
is a store.
So, this one gentleman, he was employed there.
So the employer told him that, look. It's
on Friday,
you can't go to Jummah.
Right? And if you're going to go, then
when you come back, you're going to be
without a job. So the the the relatedness
to me is an elderly uncle, and he's
telling me about this. So, he said to
me, you know, I didn't have a choice.
I had to go to Jumuah,
and,
the guy knew it, and I also knew
it. There's no way that I'm not gonna
go to Jumuah.
So he went for Jumuah, and he tells
me when he came back, as opposed to
him with being out of job, he found
that the managers was fitting him. He was
without a job.
You know, that type of thing.
In Kenwyn now, very recently,
in summertime,
the gets quite late. Yeah.
It's about probably maybe half past 9, which
is later forward. There's 1 lady, non Muslim
lady in the area. Her simple request was
that, you know, she she can't sleep without
taking the tablets.
Mhmm. So,
but if she takes the tablets and then
goes and wakes her up and then she
can't sleep thereafter. Mhmm. And so her whole
night is what's in So in the summer,
particularly when gets that late and then, you
know, they don't make the adhan on the
loudspeaker
in consideration
of of of that particular lady. Or just
buy her some noise cancelling headphones.
But,
Mhmm. You know, the fact that you the
the thing is very interesting. I wanna just
kind of probe a few things. You mentioned
that,
okay,
you that you are very strict
when it comes to,
things like,
marrying Ahlul Kitab. That what that tells me
is that you are or somebody is organised
enough to even have a position.
That there there's some kind of
scholarly community
that is,
issuing
for Tawa.
And the the the the community, the rest
of the community is,
coherent and organised enough to actually know that
there is a position or
there is a is there some kind of
body or there's some kind of guidance that
that generally kind of enjoys some kind of
general acceptance?
Because
I'm thinking, you know,
in
in some areas,
where Muslims are minorities, I know
you will have, like, individual
imams, some, you know, someone might give a
Fattah here, someone might give a different Fattah
there. Do
were the Muslims,
in South Africa
or in Cape Town if you want to
be more specific? Were they more organised from
the beginning that okay this is our position
and this is kind of what's known by
known to the people? I think if we
take it from the beginning right I think
there were just far fewer such
that
the direction was coming from a smaller pool,
right that's you know if you're going very
early on, the things proliferated and they might
have diverged at a certain point people, lots
of Ikhilaha had spread in and that's actually
one of the reasons why we have so
many massages in certain areas,
but
also
at a certain point I think in the
mid nineties
mid to early 19 nineties,
a former ulama body was formed
and that is the majesulukha
and
it is comprised
of ulama
or graduates from a variety of institutes. So
one of the
things that mark
the Majesul Qad Alissami or the Muslim Judicial
Council of VA is the fact that, like,
it's an organization,
that we
we feel very strong about its preservation on
account of the fact that it's an organization
that gathers graduates and ulama from
all
institutions
or strands of alm.
Whether they be Sufi, Salafi, you know, Ashari,
Madwiri,
Hanafi, Shafi, whatever
ever the case may
be,
that seems to be
the
hola ma'am body. There are 1 or 2
others but those are by and large like
1 man bands.
So maybe there's 3 others in this one's
comprised of 2 people or 3 people
But by and large,
the majority of olema, at least in the
Western Cape, they recognize the Muslim Judicial Council
as the majlisullema,
if you will. Mhmm. And, through its structures,
they have a fatwa committee that's elected
and within that committee there's a head Mufti
as well as a head Qaldi.
Alhamdulillah I think we were also fortunate
that we had in some of our previous
Muftis
like almost a unanimous
acceptance of them.
So one of them was our
teacher Munna Taha Karan Rahimuwata'ala
as well as his father
Sheikh Mona Yusuf Karan.
And also there were other senior scholars with
him, the likes of, Sheikh Mohammed Amin,
Amin Fakir.
I said Fakir because that's how we say
it here but it's like you know probably
better pronounced Fakir. We hope to take you
to visit tomorrow inshallah. Shala.
They had like unanimous acceptance in the in
the society.
Awesome.
And on account of that when they gave
policies or directives
then the ulama would by and large you
know adhere to them even if there was
a munakasha
you know in getting to that position.
They would by and large
adhere.
So we were fortunate
in that regard. So there was a degree
of coherence
despite the fact that we have,
I would imagine we have quite a plethora
of different persuasions of muslims in our community.
There is a platform by which they can
come together and discuss and arrive at common
positions.
And What I'm hearing is in terms of
if I want to put put my finger
on, you know, what makes
South African Muslim community,
unique or in a strong position relatively,
it's
a sense of belonging
and being here for many centuries. So you
said mid 1600 or 1700.
Can I add one thing before you summarize?
There's one element that I think is also
very important
that not only do we as South African
Muslims
feel, you know obviously we prefer our Muslim
identity over African identity. I know we're just
saying African Muslims but you know as Muslims
or Africans if you want.
That whilst we feel part of the South
African community
it's very easy for a Muslim in our
community to feel part of the Muslim community.
And that's that's on account of us having
a lot of communal activity.
So
you might be things that people might consider
Bidaas,
you know we consider them Bida Hasana in
that we were
around a lot
of Islamic occasions
we created a degree of ceremony around it.
It.
So and we hold the hookahmark. Excuse to
meet Muslims
and excuse to come together
and in fact
that's how the early Muslim community was preserved
and that's how Islam was actually passed on.
The slaves in slave lodges they couldn't converge
whenever they wanted to, they couldn't freely practice
their religion but they had certain times when
they could meet so what would they do?
The conscious Muslims amongst them, the ulama amongst
them would tell them at this time we're
gonna have a gathering of
dhikr. What we're gonna do? We're gonna recite
some Quran, we're going to make some salawat,
we're going to you know do the basics
of Islam and that's actually how that knowledge
would be passed on.
So that vehicle,
so that vehicle of communal activity
it still pervades our society.
Every Thursday night in many Mas'ajid you'll find
a communal vehicle.
Sometimes,
there'll be classes in the week, sometimes, you
know, certain groups will gather on a Sunday
or Saturday or whatever. There's there's there's lots
of communal activity
when you know when it's Rabi'ol Awal there
will be lots of communal activity you know
like throughout the year actually.
And you know whilst there might be a
ficki discussion about you know the nature of
all of those things but if you just
consider
it as a as a you know as
a Hokkum is Mubah and look at it
as a civilizational thing and a means
of bringing community together
then I think its value
you know it it cannot be
overstated. So you make it easier for muslims
to feel part of the community.
You're united.
Yeah. In terms of
different schools of thought whatever but still you
have
councils, you have bodies where they come together,
where they where they discuss things, where they
give guidance for the community. And the community
accepts that.
You've been here for
300 years plus.
You have money
that obviously you know that that has to
be mentioned that has power. You know relatively
the ketonian community is
a lot less wealthy
than
the Muslim communities in other parts of South
Africa. I actually wanted to ask that. So
Cape Town,
I was told we first we went to
Johannesburg and then,
that was kind of very short.
Thank you, Turkish Airlines.
It's a delayed flight. But,
we went to Durban for a few nights.
And Durban,
they said it's a very different atmosphere, very
different kind of,
Muslim
community
demographics
than Cape Town, the Capetonians.
What are your views and how can you
describe that? Can you explain that to us?
How would you characterize that difference?
I think we have a lot more there's
a lot more diversity in the capedonian Muslim
community on account of the fact that
many of the Muslims came here very early
on as slaves, especially
Indonesian, Muslims of Indonesian Orange right
and then from Dutch colonies from Dutch colonies
and then like I said
slaves that were snatched from British colonies as
well so influence of Indians as well but
those Indians by and large were children
who got influenced,
or dawah was given to them by the
Indonesian Muslims
and that you know was like the beginning
of the Cape Malay Muslim community.
And then
like in the latter 1800
there was also an influx
of
Indian Muslims
to
South Africa as a whole but
also Cape Town
so there's a large,
like Kookany Indian community
in
Cape Town as well. Kookany?
Yeah.
I know
what Kookany is but Kookany is some Gujarati.
Let's learn something new. So so but by
and large the the Indian community
here in capetown is. Is more diverse.
Yeah. So there is a lot more diversity
in the community
and I think the the. So ethnically what
about like school of thought as well. That's
just gonna say the indians
that came
to cape town
being cooking communities
by and large they were
also shafi'i
in madame.
And
by and large also,
they were
somewhat
Sufi in the orientation.
Mhmm.
So it gelled well with existing traditions
in Cape Town
and later there were more
you know Deobandi strands of
Islam
being taught and spirit in Cape Town but
it's a very diverse
community
alhamdulillah. And whereas other areas
are
more homogeneous and separate.
So
so there is for example a cape malay
community, a big cape malay community in Joburg.
Johannesburg. Yeah. But I think in terms of,
like, financial clout and stuff like that, there's
a lot more of the Indian indentured laborers
and business people that came to South Africa,
a very affluent
Indian community
who made up more of like maybe Gujarati's
and women's and stuff like that. So they
came much later?
They came much later than the the Cape
Malays were in South Africa certainly. And they
they predominantly Hanafi school of thought? Predominantly
Hanafi.
So what's that dynamic like then?
Would you have
predominantly
Shafi'i,
in
Cape Town,
Hanafi in other areas like Durban, Johannesburg?
Did you have any did you have to
do anything? Or your your, you know, your
the the your forerunners, your forefathers,
what did they have to do in order
to kind of overcome this difference or or
unite despite this difference or cooperate? Was it
just something natural because people were chilled out?
I think one of the important things or
you know the things we were fortunate in
is that you know when discussions or inter
provincial discussions
were taking place we had some people at
the helm of our organizations here who could
relate to them. So for example Marley Yusuf
Karan Rahim Allahu Ta'ala,
you know not the previous Mufti, the one
before that,
he studied at Darul Aqulom Deobind,
Okay.
But,
you know, despite that,
he was, like, deeply capetonian.
He was involved in the Dhikr, what we
call the Dhikr Jamat,
you know, he was very involved,
in that way. Like, he was
a, like, the epitome of a cape malay
Muslim
who happened to study in Darul Al Umdi
Oban when he arrived in there. He didn't
know a word of, I mean, he loved
recounting that so he didn't know a word
of, of Urdu.
You know, he lent it all there. But,
even when he came back he didn't like
he he was
a capetonian Muslim
and he didn't lose that. Mhmm. But at
the same time on account of being, you
know, a graduate of Darul Anubirond,
he was able to and he now knowing
Urdu and all of those things, he could
converse and relate to
the community.
You know. -Is that why you went to
Darulondioband?
In order to have
that,
that bridge?
I can't recall all the details but he
actually ended up there like just
by chance.
So yeah I don't think it was planned
but that's you know Allah's plan. And
then walnataha
he was fortunate to have been reared by
his father who was an alim
who was like
deeply captonian.
He imbibed
the culture of of captonian muslims.
He then also in a more purposeful manner
he also went to study in the Darul
Al Deoband,
thereafter
he was fortunate to
spend 2 years in Egypt where he like
just immersed himself in a reading. So he
was very open minded, he was not pragmatic
anyway, and I think there was always something
that
differentiated
himself from just being a
you know
like Deobandi for lack of
you know, a better expression
in that he was Shafi'i.
Mhmm.
So
so he came back and I think he
was able to synthesize
a lot of things and he was also
very well able to represent the capetonian Muslim
community with other you know Muslim communities in
South Africa. And I think that created a
synergy
via a body
like a networking body or body by which
the other olema bodies come together. We call
it UxA,
the United olema council of South Africa.
So it's comprised of a number of olema
bodies from different regions
and they all come together network discuss matters
make big decisions at that level.
Hoping to speak to,
the the head of Uxar tomorrow, inshallah.
Now what role did apartheid play in this?
Because I also heard
that one of the reason I I was
speaking to a a brother,
at at an event yesterday
and he was saying that apartheid actually helped
helped,
protect the identity of Muslims because of, like,
forced,
you know, separation
of different communities. You know, you can't go
to the white beach or the white people
and the black people are kept separately and
the brown people are and the Indians are
kept separately and that kind of subject. So,
I don't know about in Cape Town where
he was saying in some areas because there
was a separation between the Indians are not
allowed to mix with the white people and
they're not allowed to mix with the black
people,
and and the different tribes and the Zulus
and this and then that.
He said as a result it kind of
ended up forcing them to preserve their,
their Islam even though it was attached to
kind of maybe more,
I guess ethnic markers. Do you think do
you think that's the the case throughout South
Africa?
It has to do it, but, I don't
I don't think we like to, aggrandize,
anything from apartheid. Yeah. But, it does have
some truth to it in that
because,
like,
communities were you know, there was a degree
of insulation, like I mentioned earlier. Mhmm. Because
you have
people who are all ethnically Indian
in one area.
Mhmm.
You know, so that area would largely be
a Muslim area. So you can go to
areas like that, and you'll find,
like, you maybe think you're in When they
look at apartheid, I think the worst
and the worst thing about apartheid was the
group areas act.
Mhmm. And in terms of the group areas
act,
most of the, you know,
what we still
even 20 years after the punishment of apartheid,
what we still feel is the consequences of
the group areas act.
And it was when people were forcefully removed
from their homes and, you know, placed elsewhere.
So,
that was, like, really the worst thing in
terms of apartheid.
So it's a it's a very sore point
for people to talk about. Mhmm. But,
at the same time, also that's that's why
the, you know, people don't want because the
group areas act for example, 20 years down
the line,
still this whole idea of the redistribution
of both rural and urban land according to
some hasn't been addressed sufficiently.
And
the
the the
inequality or the injustice of it in the
first place was a direct result of the
group areas act where certain people of a
certain skill color were,
allowed certain privileges in terms of land, which
is a very important form of wealth.
So still today they're struggling with the idea
of a willing buyer, willing seller, the redistribution
of urban and and other lands. So the
the group areas act as a very sore
point and it's one of the it is
within that particular locus of the group areas
act where certain of the other vices which
is perpetuated
like poverty and and all the other the
undesirables.
So it's a very it's a very sore
point for us.
And and most of the trauma
of apartheid
which is still within the living memory of
many of our parents and and even some
of ourselves
would would still be.
But, as you mentioned, the
sort of like the group areas act means
that you were isolated.
And to a to a large degree, I
would believe that
it sort of was like an imposed sort
of insulation
for you because people with a particular, you
know,
group and,
ethnic background Yeah. And generally
who share the same value and and and
and and and and and and and and
religion. Yeah.
You were able
and and one identity.
Mhmm. So in that particular way your identity
was preserved to a to to a certain
degree.
So,
you know, it's but, not maybe I don't
even think it's right to say the silver
lining on the cloud because, you know, that
would I mean if you if you take
for example we drove through
the area we went to the Masjid today,
Parkwood, so
many of those people
would have lived in much nicer areas
more leafy suburbs and stuff like that
and they all got displaced to these areas
that
you
know was away from all of those niceties
away from the beach away from the mountainous
areas away from the you know the greenery
and you know along with that came a
lot of people being you know
punched into small areas
whereas they might have come from more spacious
land
and along with that came you know
many other vices gangsterism,
drugs abuse,
you
know, xenia,
becoming
a norm
and a lot of other vices
You know it facilitated for
a
lesser education system
for,
you know, for the people in those areas
and all of those kind of things. So
so we don't like to really
you know, give any any any credit to
that. It might have had an effect. Although
Adam, you know, perhaps if if we were
not forced into that, I think by and
large No. Certainly. I mean, being together and
No. No. But what I wanted to say,
Manas, even before that,
many of the Muslim
community they were still located
in proximity of each other.
It's not as if they were all super
scattered
and then they got lumped into this area.
Many of them lived in similar, there were
communities of Muslims,
in Claymont,
in area Constancia there were clusters of Muslims
so they already lived in communities
but just in very
beautiful,
lush communities
whereas they then got
moved out to,
you know, to others. Tomorrow if we get
the chance I want to take you guys
to
to
to Burqa. I don't think I'll be with
you but I'll ask Malaya here to take
you to Burqa and you can you can
see where it is. It's like
at the heart of the central central business
district.
It's like prime prime property.
And yeah. So you're saying that that
that injustice hasn't been
fixed yet and hasn't been addressed yet properly?
The outgoing deputy chief minister of justice when
he left in his outgoing speech, one of
the issues that he highlighted was this particular
issue, that this particular inequality hasn't been readdressed.
I had an observation sometime after that. You
know? You had
when you when you the group areas act
means that you lump certain people together.
And when lumping them together, there's peep not,
before there was, just sort of like let's
call it an organic society Mhmm. Where you
found that the rich and poor live side
by side, for example, in a normal suburb.
What what
that actually presents an economic economic
opportunity for both
because now
the one can live off the other one.
Yeah. But now that person who was poor
person living in close proximity to a rich
person then that will afford him the opportunity
of some work. But when you take this
person now and that's one of the unique
things about
the group areas act also the workforce was
far removed from the hub of activity.
So now
and when this came very clear to me
was, you know, you have this influx of,
foreigners coming into South Africa.
So what happens is they don't place themselves
where
the local people were placed under the group
areas act. But they actually placed themselves in
cloaks proximity to the let's call it the
leafier suburbs. Which
means that
they're able to that that big opportunity there
is better for them than for their local
counterpart to stay so far out. Yeah. Yeah.
So, you know, like a guy, like Weinberg
you're talking about, is close to Constantia. So
all he does is he's a R500,
invest in a grass grass cutter.
So then he goes to the leafy suburb
and he cuts grass and he goes home.
But the person staying, for example, in
which is, like, very far, you know, it's
it's not the same opportunity for me. So
the The money you'd have to spend on,
taxi fee Traveling to work. Yeah. Traveling to
work wouldn't I mean, you wouldn't even earn
enough to cover them.
So it makes things difficult. Sounds like it
was planned
to leave a lasting kind of legacy of
inequality. I mean the architects of apartheid they
yeah
I mean it's kind of like, you know,
when,
you know, why does the map of Africa
have is full of straight lines? Some of
them running through tribal,
you know, a single tribe or a single
area,
the partition of India and Pakistan, you know,
purposefully,
for example,
going through,
communities
to almost kind of ensure perpetual
destruction and perpetual kind of strife and
and disunity. But,
SubhanAllah.
I wanted to get your
your explanation on the choice of your the
name for your madrasah.
You mentioned this earlier on, sir,
Imam
Al Qurani,
madrasah,
Mahad,
institute.
Can you just explain because
you mentioned earlier on today and I think
it's quite quite
insightful.
Okay so so so the name
the Imam Qurani Institute
for Islamic Studies, it it stems from
or it's based on a scholar from 17th
century Hijaz,
Al Imam Ibrahim
Al Qurani Sheikh Ibrahim Al Hassan Al Qurani.
He was
a he's of significance to us in South
Africa and Cape Town in particular
on account of
his one of the first influential
Muslim scholars
being
a person by the name of Tuan Yusuf
of Macassa or
sometimes referred to as, Shirk Yusuf Al Jawi.
Right?
He is,
well, there's a number of places where he's
claimed that he's buried, but, we claim that
he's buried in the area that's called Makassah.
Inshallah, we'll be going there tomorrow when we
visit, Munaflu Khaled.
So he was an early influential Muslim
in,
in
in Cape Town.
Tuwan refers to someone
of Malaysian
descent.
Tuan like means master.
Yeah.
In in in in in Malay. In Malay.
Okay.
So,
for his He's teacher. Yeah. He he he
made moolazama. His his teacher
was
Sheikh Ibrahim al Qurani. Mhmm.
And he is like he's the father of
one strand of Islam
in
in South Africa in Cape Town.
Then on the other hand
the other main strand of Islam in
Cape Town is the Indian strand of Islam.
Cape Town or South Africa?
Cape Town and South Africa as a whole.
Yeah. As a whole. So so
but I think if I'm talking about the
2 strands and I think the the biggest
point of convergence of those strands is Cape
Town. Mhmm. Whereas others are more predominantly
from the Indo Pak subcontinent whether it be
from the you know from the more Sufi
or I should say all Braldi background or
the more,
Dio Bandi clan background.
But both of those traditions
they take from a scholar by the name
of Sheykh Waliullah Adehi
who was the student
of Sheikh Abu Taher al Kurdi al Qurani
in Hejaz
and he then brought the hadith movement back
to
India,
but one of the main influences on his
thought
was the father
of Sheikh Abu Taher al Quran, al Kurdi
al Kurdi,
that was in fact Sheikh Ibrahim al Kurdi.
So
sheikh Ibrahim
Al Kurdi Al Qurani was like the point
of convergence
of the various strands of Islam
in capitol.
So that's one of the reasons we chose
the name.
The idea that
we hope for our students to be a
representative
of the variety
and as well as the indigenous
nature of Islam
in our society.
Secondly
he was like a polymath,
he was like a leading scholar in all
of the fields of his religion whether it
was
fiqh, aqeedah,
you know, matters of tazgir, tasawolf,
you know, across the board he was like
a polymath. Mhmm. And then in reading some
of his biography he had, you know, when
I read about some of his
his demeanor
it reminded me
as well as some of the other asatih
at the Magharsa very much of our own
teacher,
Manataha,
Quran and
he was also a great influence on the
thought of Marnatollah
Kharan
and that's another reason why we chose the
name.
In addition to that
there were some features in his students
that stood out to us that mirrored to
us what we would like to see in
our students, and
that perhaps I can summarize that in 3
things
number 1 his students
or his thought was focused on
understanding and unity
in relation to interim Muslim issues.
So
he was always harmonizing,
harmonizing between
the ideas
of the Asha Airea and Ibn Arabi on
one hand harmonizing between the idea of
the Ahlus Sunnah
or the Asha Airef I should say and
the more Atha'i inclined,
Madhab Dhan Abila on certain Masayil. He was,
you know, he's all about that on an
interim Muslim front
explaining
positions of people in ways that others could
understand and appreciate.
So he wasn't fixated
on
a
on
gunning the other down
in terms of inter Muslim
issues.
Then his students
himself and his students were marked by the
the deep
level of tazgia
and the halaqa with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala.
And I think that's obviously very important when
you look at Tarbiyyah as you know the
holistic development of a student
and lastly
his students were all at the forefront of
the jihad against the colonizers
you know so
they conducted themselves in a certain way,
they had that
affinity and softness between each other you know
actually Dua Al Khufar and
they were you know they really stood up
that's how Tuohy and Yusuf actually ended up
here.
The reason he ended up in South Africa
in Cape Town
in this like furthest outpost
in the south
was because wherever they put him he would
break out and wage jihad against the colonizers.
I mean I don't know how many times
did they have him imprisoned?
A few times. They had him imprisoned a
few times he broke out and carried on
the jab.
So so
I think that's the idea that you know
that that
made us
get a real affinity to the name and,
Alhamdulillah. I think there were a number of
other reasons as well. That's probably the most
thought thought out name for any organization
I've ever heard of in the history of
the organization.
There were a number of other, you know,
reasons we chose it as well. So you
want it's like an inspiration for what you
want to see in your students.
Aspiration rather like, you know, so
unifying
amongst yourselves,
having a devout,
devoted relationship with Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala
and also being at the forefront of activism
and being
open and active against the And a vanguard
of a sound
and truly traditional islamic world view.
You know that's obviously we
are institution of Islamic academics, so
you know that's at the forefront of our
minds.
And yeah so you know when you were
talking about with shakaythum today it really really
resonated with our own kind of principles as
well and our own,
aspirations,
you know, as Islam 21c and different,
you know, linked organisations and entities.
But really, you know, really
kind of about that unifying the Muslim Ummah,
focusing on those things. I liked how you
put it put it harmonizing,
focus on the things that are common between
each other,
increasing relationship with Allah, hereafter
eccentricity,
being active
against
injustice,
enjoying the good, forbidding the evil. So may
Allah Subhana Wa Ta'la bless you all and
your students.
We've
taken a lot of your time. I really
appreciate it. It's midnight now. We've had a
very packed schedule. And Mawlana's Mashallah.
You know, stood in there like a true
mujahid.
So,
yeah, we'll we'll we'll end it there. Inshallah,
I'd like to thank you again. I hope
for maybe come back soon one day and,
maybe we'll do do a follow-up or look
forward to inviting you or hosting you,
in London in the UK inshallah.
I must also add that, you know, like,
you're saying that resonated for us. It's a
mutual feeling.
That,
you know, meeting up with yourselves and,
and,
expressing,
you know, the importance on focusing of those
things that,
not the points of divergence, but the points
of convergence
that resonated very well with us. Oh, wow.
And he made 1 or 2 statements when
he was he was was was was sitting
over there. And then I said to him
that,
that our teacher,
you know, was of a similar persuasion.
Let's focus on that which unites us as
opposed to that which divides us.
And,
he quoted one of the early scholars,
that says that,
you know, if you have a sense of
partisanship
and you defend your school of thought,
that has,
that has a certain consequence. And the consequence
is that,
it it it it it creates
partnership on the other side. So our teacher,
Rahim Allah, used to quote it quite often,
and he used to say
that bigotry only begets bigotry.
So,
it's
nice when, you know, you get to meet
those people of a similar Humble. You know,
a similar mind from me. And I pray
that, you know, like you people,
look, there's a lot of challenges in our
Muslim minority as well. Mhmm. And we're actually
at a very, I think, you know, at
a very unique point in the history of
Muslims.
I I think we're at a sort of
a watershed moment. Swamma. You know, many of
our predecessors, they came and they made a
great sacrifice. And because of the sacrifice they
made, they set us on a particular very
positive
trajectory. Mhmm. But it doesn't it's lasted for
centuries, and that's the degree of the, you
know, the the sincerity which they have in
terms of effort. I think we're at a
point now where it requires us to make
a greater effort in order to continue for
another, you know, 300 years. But my point
is that,
like you people with your good thought, look
at us as an example. We too, you
know, look at the, you know, the Muslims
in UK, and we also take a lot
of, great inspiration there from. Amen. And it
it may seem like,
sort, like, really insignificant and so forth, but
I feel the coming together our coming together
today for me is very, it's been very
significant.
And,
it
is,
it is it is it is unique.
And we're hoping that there is I think
there's a good relationship
already existing on so many levels between the
Cape Town community and the UK community. Mhmm.
If we can do much to foster and
benefit from each other. Sharmaine. One of the
scholars from the UK,
he's visited,
Cape Town quite a bit. She habl Hakim
Murad. Yes, sir. And he has unique,
you know,
unique take in terms of the role that
the Cape Town community can serve
on on on the world,
but particularly for Muslims in the west because
though we're out here in the south, we're
also, like, pretty much a western
type of community. So inshallah,
you know,
we're hoping that going forward that we can,
you know, strengthen these, you know, bonds and
these so we can
mutually, benefit from from from each other. And
one last point that I mentioned might sound
insignificant, you know, that come,
but I was thinking about the other day,
the the Imam,
Quran institution,
by the grace and mercy of Allah subhanahu
wa ta'ala, it is a it is a
blessed space. Mhmm. And I was thinking to
myself, who are the founders they they they're
of?
And the founders they're of the actual founders
they're of is, I I don't think I'm
at liberty to to to say, but it
was really 2
spiritual individuals that we met,
before and for me, those are the 2
founders of the institution. What we see in
front of us really is a manifestation of
their good intention and the good focus on
us. One of them is in the form
of,
Turan Oja, you know, that that came and,
you know,
they they said certain things and it had
a certain impact on you. It's just a
few words that were shared, but the prophet
said, sometimes there's a few words you say
you don't give it much attention, but it
causes you to rise, you know, in terms
of your station paradise. So he shared a
few words with us
that that those words, it manifested in the
establishment of the imam Quran institution. And another
one was when we went in the very
early days to make Mashwara upcountry in in
Joburg. One of our teachers and spiritual mentors,
he spoke to us. And, you know,
he he inspired us to actually
do this, and those are the 2 founders.
So, you know,
Allah
is, you know so this is the 3rd
for me, if I look at it, this
coming to the madrasa
and, you know, hearing sort of the same
same same thought, it is, you know, you've
basically fold that handcuff. Alhamdulillah. So we can
just move on now you know. SubhanAllah. Well
we didn't do anything that special but I'll
happily take credit for that inshallah. All of
this is you, Zakkul alhamdulillah. And the mizanam
hassanah.
And all of our
scales with good deeds inshallah and forgive all
of our shortcomings.
So jakumalahkheelah.
I would love to carry on speaking but
we're, I think we're gonna, we wanna welcome
And, Zakmohara unto you for watching. If you
like this podcast, give it a like and
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Let us know.
Anyone else you think we should be speaking
to,
in, in, not just South Africa, all over
the world. We wanna visit as many different
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and, yeah, continue the conversation. If you like
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I've been your host Almanba. Assalamu alaikum.