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Hindutva Muslim Tensions

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Mohammed Hijab

Channel: Mohammed Hijab

Episode Notes

Full Channel 4 Interview

Episode Transcript

© No part of this transcript may be copied or referenced or transmitted in any way whatsoever. Transcripts are auto-generated and thus will be be inaccurate. We are working on a system to allow volunteers to edit transcripts in a controlled system.


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Your brothers and sisters in Islam net from Norway are establishing a masjid a Dawa Center. This center this masjid, this educational institution will act like a beacon of light, calling the Muslims in Norway back to the essence of the slum. So give generously and Allah azza wa jal give you even

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me your name and what you do just sort of going on. Okay, so my name is Muhammad Fisher. I'm the co founder of the Sapiens Institute. And so what we do is we have adult education courses, where we explore through your philosophical issues, in particular, and religious issues. And so

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really, my work has been around that. You've been described as a YouTube influencer. Okay. Yeah. What do you Who do you influence? I actually done a poll on on my community page some time ago to see what kind of audience and to be honest, its majority Muslim population.

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When I looked at my demographics, I saw that there was a significant number of women, females that are actually listening to me as well. I would say the majority are men, maybe about 60 to 70%. And the age group would be about 18 to 35 years old, although other categories that are closest to it are, like close second places, there's many

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religious YouTube videos that you do.

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I mean, I think a lot Yeah, I would say a lot of it is a lot of the answer is religious, but a lot of it because my, my PhD is in philosophy of religion is philosophical. So like how we deal with issues to do with like philosophy of religion, proving the existence of God or political philosophy, by exploring feminism and liberalism, these kind of things, and publish work on these on these books on these issues, but five so far. And so

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yeah, I think this there's two aspects of fundamentally, fundamentally what I do, there's the publishing aspect. And then there is the kind of teaching aspects,

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these other things, and obviously, I've been an activist for many years as well. So on issues to do.

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Any activism, what kind of issues? So Palestinian rights? Okay, we got rights.

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I think the far right after, like a gift for right. Okay. And I would even add to that other extremist ideologies, like even Islamic extremism, I've got a whole channel dedicated to Islamic extremism, which my friend, you know, is gonna speak about all the time called SP files, which I deal with all kinds of extremism on there. And that's not even violent extremism, but things which I believe there's a slippery slope to violent, violent extremism. In addition, obviously, to violent extremism, hammock circles as well. So I think that the my activism actually stretches for that. And obviously, recently, the Indian minority Muslim issue in India as well, I think these are the main

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issues I've been dealing with. Okay. So you see, your role is to prevent young Muslim men in joining tutus, and be part of my role is that,

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to be honest with you, I would say a big part model is apologetic in nature, meaning that I try and articulate the faith of Islam to people who want to know about it.

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Why? Because I feel like there's a major disconnect between what the religion of Islam actually says, and what people actually perceive it says, and people don't realize how pragmatic the religion of Islam can be, even from a traditional standpoint. So we find competing narratives in the west of how Islam, for example, should conform with Western values, this kind of hegemonic super imposition, I would call it rather the you should be like us being our image, I find that almost a pseudo colonial narrative. And I'm opposed to that kind of narrative. I feel like we have enough within our own infrastructure to be able to be as pragmatically Puritan, if you like, as we want to be. So

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that's one thing. Same time, I would say that

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I would people even know the fundamentals of Islam, like the basics and stuff like that. I feel like there's a major, one of the big parts of my role is an educated function.

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So just to teach people about the basics of Islam is incompatible with the West.

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What depends on how you define Islam and how you define the West, right? So if we're defining Islam as a set of propositions, which says, There's only one God worthy of worship, and that, you know, we want communal harmony, for example, with people of all faiths and stuff like that, which is how I would define it. And I would say, living in the West and being tolerant with Western people, that's absolutely fine. And it is compatible. If what we mean by the West is, in fact, the sort of, hierarchically the right

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ideological standpoints, which Islam must be subjected to, for example, Social liberalism, or second wave feminism, then I would say actually, it's not compatible with those things in entirety, how others are, there are areas of intersection. So it depends on how we're defining the two notions. But if we do define them in the way that in the way I've suggested in the first instance, I think it's there is compatibility there, of course. So, if we turn to Lester, now, how did you first hear about what was going on in Leicester,

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I was actually privy to it through kind of looking at Twitter, because I'm on Twitter sometimes. And I saw, very angered to be honest with you to see this kind of Hindutva. ideology, the far right ideology has been exported from the subcontinent, and make its way into

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my country.

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And to see people being vulnerable people being attacked.

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It was like, for example, the 22nd of May, there was something I saw 30 people attacking one of the visuals all on camera. And I was shocked by that. And I was very saddened by that. So when I started looking at these kinds of things, I left I thought the police would take care of it. Unfortunately, the police didn't take care of anyone off for weeks. Why did you decide to go down that particular weekend when there was no disorder? For two reasons, fundamentally, one of them was to actually kind of ease tensions and deescalate the situation. I wanted to let people know, young people that I knew I had an influence on not to break the law. And this was very clear on the public record, that I

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said this, don't vandalize things don't break the law. But at the same time, to be honest with you, I wanted people to know that they could lawfully use reasonable force. Because why should the Muslim community or any other community have to deal with this radical ideology which has been exported from the subcontinent, which is a fascistic racist ideology was talks of the rich sorts of Hindu supremacism, right? Why should we have to deal with that, and there not be a response, which is lawful unbefitting thing as a moral duty, I think, I felt a sense of moral obligation, I thought, Let my people know of this, what they could do, reasonably and do this for any community, not just

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Muslims, honestly, I would do this for anybody that I saw was in trouble or that injustice was being done to them, or, you know, from Leicester, and you went down? And that could be seen as quite provocative. You know, did you go down there to cause trouble? Why didn't you keep one away from it? You could have just done a YouTube broadcast, you could have said to people via social media, these are your rights, don't get involved, you know, don't have any violence. Why actually go to Leicester, I did all those things. I mean, on Twitter I was engaging with with the issue and the ways that you've just suggested, but I just feel like there is an ADD, added benefit into actually

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hands on interaction, being in the thick of it. And to be honest with you, although that a lot. I've been one raised in London, as you know,

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not from Leicester. But having said that, I don't distinguish between people who are in less than Burma when he was in the United Kingdom. I think that if injustice has been done to any community in any part of the United Kingdom, or indeed any part of the world, but I can actually influence but I should engage in trying to stop that injustice. And so once again, this Hindutva ideology, which was very clearly it's very clearly fascistic and nature, racist in nature, requires head on confrontation in all legal ways possible. You distinguish between Hindutva and ordinary Hindus in Leicester who are living their lives. And we're also appalled at the violence. Absolutely. And I

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think it's a shame that there has been this misrepresentation of the of the media, where such conflation has actually been put forward, and suggested, because if you look at the sorry, one minute of the second video

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that I actually clearly mentioned, the only thing I actually mentioned was Hindutva. It was a message to the Indians that don't ever do this again, and these kinds of things. And this particular message, had no mentioned working due at all, in fact, the titling of the video, no mention the word Hindu at all. So the conflation has been made, it's not mine. It's actually a conflation, unfortunately, which has been put forward by right wing parts of the media and individuals who have a meta narrative that they wish to present which that Muslim people are fundamentally or inherently incapable of tolerance. And that if Muslims engage in protest, that process is an affront to civil

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society or sort of living in protest is actually offensive. So I think that this is something which is intended to align my, my character in the Muslim community, Allah.

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I need your code.

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Do you want to do that question? Because there was someone I

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think it was

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2626 I said, Well, we'll pause I'm gonna change that. No science. I might try to do this. Too short. For sure. Thanks.

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Whoever

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Yeah,

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I think it was as simple as

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that.

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Okay, dosh okay? Do you distinguish between he looked from and ordinary Hindus who live in Leicester and were recorded in violence? Absolutely do and I think that this intentional conflation between the two is something which unfortunately, has been done to malign me as an individual and my community at large. Clearly in, for example, my publications, when I speak in the terms that I do about the fascistic ideology that is Hindutva,

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which is, it's in the network of kind of Indian nationalistic ideologies, like the RSS, as you know, and so on,

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is clear that I'm talking about in political ideology. I'm not talking about a religion or a group of people.

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And I think that such conflation that has been made is appalling, and unfortunately, is framed me in a very

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dis favorable or unfavorable way. You see in your court on camera, you were talking about reincarnation, people coming back as cockroaches, you must have known I will be offensive to Hindus. Well, to be honest, I wasn't actually mocking reincarnation. In that situation. I was saying that if I believed in reincarnation, it sounded like it could have. And if so, you know, to the Hindu community at large, I have to offer my apologies to the entire community if it sounded like I was lucky. But I will say to clearly that, in fact, I did. preface my sentence with a conditional. If I believed in reincarnation, which I don't think is logically absurd from a theological perspective,

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actually, I think if God wanted to know the all powerful God, if he wanted to reincarnate me into a grasshopper, whoever doesn't say conquered. So it wasn't about whoever it is. I don't think that's logically impossible. I think that's possible. I believe in heaven. Hell, I mean, this eschatological notions, I don't think

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I've neither here nor there, for me. It is the case, although not all Hindus are Hindutva. Most Indians are Hindus. So I was offering them something which they can relate with, which relates to the eschatological notions. And from that perspective, I was being hyperbolic. And my speech was an attempt to mock Hinduism as a religion.

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And using that kind of inflammatory, yeah, know those inflammatory words and stuff, can you see how you were, you could be seen as inflaming the situation rather than calming it, to be honest with you, once again, I feel like this situation requires confrontation, I'll be honest with you, because in all legal ways possible, we're talking about a new form of extremism, which is new, in Britain, relatively new, we haven't seen this kind of tensions before and the decades are positive, unless the US I haven't seen this kind of thing itself. So what I'm saying is that the reason why it requires confrontation is because just like as Muslims, we are required to confront extremist

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elements within our own community. I think it's fair, that Hindus who have extreme centers within their own communities like the Hindutva, for example, and fascistic elements, for example, the second chief of the RSS, actually prints the Holocaust. And we're talking about something which is and recommended a holocaust against Sikhs and Muslims. We're talking about golwalkar, we're talking about a seriously extremist ideology. That thing is confronting, and I feel like me as a citizen, exercising my freedom of expression and speech confronting this ideology, in ways which are not legal or illegal, is something which I'm afforded, and should continue to do. Did you accept that

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the way you went about it coming down, preaching on the street, you know, people were listening to you, of course, they would have listened to you, they would have looked up to you, you should have gone about it in a different way and try to calm tensions, perhaps. I mean, once again, I'm not saying everything I do is, I'm an angel walking on Earth. And we all learn from our experiences. I think this, again, if it happened again, I would go down again, but in a way that would be a maybe less provocative, I have learned from the lessons of before, I will say things which are more categorical, such that I can't be, quote, mind, in the way that I was called Mind that cannot be

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maligned and lied about by the mainstream media in the way that I was. And I do think there's an issue here. Having said that, and taking accountability for taking stock of my own action, I think it's fair for us to say also, that there is a different reaction from the press, when a Muslim decides to show or express themselves in political ways than there is from other people. And that is, I think, something worthy of investigation. So you think you've been branded an extremist

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rather than somebody who preaches a conservative ideology, a conservative view of his religion? I don't know if any UK paper has called me to be completely honest and extremist. I haven't gone that far yet. But it's on the public records. Whether we're

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Talking about Hindus or Jews or Christians or anywhere other people, community that I've only preached coexistence. The fact that a Muslim person can be branded as an insider of hate or instigator and chief, the governing. In fact, I own this, I'm starting up a new branch now called instigator and cheap T shirts, I'm going to sell them get some money from the situation to compensate me for the troubles I've found. But what I'm saying is, you know, having said this, you know, what I'm saying to you is, I've realized how poorly represented Muslims are in the press. And I feel genuinely guess that this is to, to withhold or to uphold, I should say, a meta narrative of

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the impossible subject, which is the Muslim person that requires to be kicked out of the land or something like that. So what do I expect except for this? And we haven't seen much better than this. I mean, the impossible Muslims subject who is, you know, intolerant and capable of anything else, but I've said the opposite. I'm saying it today on camera. These are explicit words, I say that we want nothing but peace and coexistence and harmony with all communities, you accept that your actions that day weren't conducive to peace, you were, you know, riling people up? Well, I know what you're saying to me. But what I'm saying is, every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

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Sometimes it's not equal. Sometimes it's not opposite. But I didn't start anything in less than what happened was on the 22nd of May 30, people rushed, they beat up one person, and this was on social media. And then we saw more and more of these kinds of events taking place. And this is because they were inspired by Hindutva ideology. This ideology is a fascistic racist supremacist ideology. And what I'm saying is that we like I'm saying to you, yes, you're saying, do you accept this and that and whatever? And I'm saying, Yes, I can see we've come from, of course, I need you guys to accept as well, that this ideology needs to be confronted. And we can't just, and I commend Channel Four, I

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commend you, in fact, for your reports that you brought out where you're one of the only people in mainstream media who even mentioned the RSS who even mentioned Hindutva, I want to see more of this kind of thing. Because if young Muslim men,

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they feel alienated to the point where they can't even be heard, or that this side of the story is not even told. I think that is a pathway to extremism, unfortunately, which we need to make sure it's not facilitated. There is an argument some people locally feel that this was a local issue, local tensions, they could have dealt with it. That's what they're trying to do, that people like you coming from the outside just made it all blow up 100 times was, there is an argument for that. But there's, there's no such principle at play. And we were talking about, we're in London, so people from Birmingham shouldn't come into here and our situation, I don't know what from whence

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such principle was, was extrapolated. And to be honest, if such principle can be shown to be robust from philosophical perspective, I may think about it. But this idea that people from London shouldn't interfere in the action of behaviors or the situations of people less than I think this is almost like a village type. We're living in a village type mentality, we're living in a globalized world. If I wanted to comment on things are happening in Africa, there'll be a lot of nuances that you will be aware of, you know, you wouldn't necessarily know where the new areas are areas or the interaction between the two for another. I accept all of that. That's why I have people that will

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guide me into these areas where I can get a Set Map. I mean, this is something which can be mitigated. I think, one thing is that the reason why I went there is because of my social media influence. You see, I have social media influence, I don't think anyone unless as a Muslim, or an activist Muslim has. So I was. And I was able to actually bring forward a narrative that very few in the media was able to bring hundreds of 1000s almost millions of people watch that narrative, because of me. So the way to eliminate people like me from going to Leicester is the police can do their job and the media can do their job. If both of those organs do their job properly, then people

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like me won't need to travel at all. And what happened to you locally, there's a there's one video where a local Muslim boy saying to you, you know, you're just inflaming the situation, go home. Yeah. There were local Muslims as opposed to being there. I thought I feel a pose. What it was is that I was speaking with some time, maybe 10 minutes and I shouldn't have spoken to these angry people for me because I'm a lecturer etc. So I speak for a long time. So it's like we've had enough or we've had, you know, we have gotten over this. We want to get involved in some protests actually do make them angry. I don't know. They may be angrier. I mean, once again, there's always

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reciprocal. We're talking about some young lads in Leicester.

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I will say they're not really newsworthy from that was very unremarkable situation. What I would say is that the overwhelming majority opinion was that people actually

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wanting me to be there. They showed me a lot of support. As you can see from the videos, I mean, people are all around me, there are 1000s of them and walking behind me is, in fact, I was made famous because people are walking behind me and in the 1000s. So if we're talking about, you got the heckler here, and the disturber there, and so on and so forth. I mean, who doesn't have such people in crowds? If they're if they're if they're speaking to crowds? Have the police contacted you since letter? No.

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So they haven't, because you've been accused of inflaming the situation. And that's the point. If I did anything criminal, then the police are doing a very poor job in being able to prosecute me, I've done nothing criminals is the point. In fact, I believe the criminality has been done against me in the form of defamation of character that many of these news outlets have actually been a party to and so on. I think that when they take a clip of me talking about the Hindutva, and they say he said Hindus should. So they've literally substituted one word with another. Or they mentioned that I am anti Jewish or something like that. But the telegram actually, you actually mentioned this, or that

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I was leaving anti Jewish protesters stuff like this. I think this is nonsense, and you will never find anything. I will challenge everybody, all the media outlets to come together and do an extreme brainstorm. Take all 600 videos of mine on my channel, Hamad hijab on YouTube. And to try and find such words coming out of my mouth is a sign of defeat. When you have to lie about the person you're reporting about. I feel like they've sabotages or whenever

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they have dug up a video where you are in Golders Green and they said you're being quite provocative. And it was a much about Palestine. But then somebody they think you was heard saying, No, I'm gonna get the Jews and not Zionist you actually use the word Jews? No, that wasn't me. That wasn't that wasn't me. I don't think any reporter actually ever said that was me. They said somebody in a mosque said that. So I don't think any British or even to be honest, the Indian ones actually, no one said that that was me. What do you say about them saying generally, you know, going to Golders Green with a megaphone, protesting like that is provocative the same way it was provocative

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going to Leicester? Well, I mean, the thing is, we have friends in Golders Green, who actually sympathize with our course, vicariously sympathize with our course. And these friends are Jewish friends, and we have videos of them holding hands with us. Hundreds of 1000s of people have seen these videos, were holding hands of us saying we support Palestinian rights, I fail to see how this kind of thing can be anti Jewish, when Jews are leading it effectively. So I think this binary notion that Jews and Zionists are the same thing, and that you cannot be Jewish and anti Zionist or anti Israel so that I think this is outdated. Now I think it's a cliche that we need to throw the

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was going to be in a trash heap or history.

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To be honest with you, once again, it's a tactic that is attempted by individuals to try and stop and anti Zionist or anti Israel kinds of campaigns. And even Jeremy Corbyn people left wing have been accused of anti semitism, what do you think you're going to do with someone like me who I'm a Semite, by the way, I mean, I'm an Arab and Arabic is one of the some of the Semitic languages, as you accuse you of being an anti Semite, or whatever, I'm gonna say, Well, I can say what I want as well, I can accuse them of being at something we can either Islamophobic and anti semitic, because they don't allow me to manifest my pro Palestinian rights without calling me and submit it as a kind

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of anti semitism in my understanding, let me let me let me own the phrase. I mean, I don't care well, to be honest with you, I'll be honest with you, I don't care what they have to say. I mean, what they have to say is like, meaningless to the nth degree to someone like me. So quite frankly, if this is an attempt to try and deter me from doing activism, which is pro Palestine, and so on, I think Islam is the attempt. In fact, I relish sometimes I enjoy even seeing these kinds of thing because it shows defeat, it shows that this is desperation that they have reached the the epitome of desperation that they now have to malign me through distortion and manipulation. So when you say you

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enjoy seeing it and stuff, I mean, the videos are really popular, they all went viral, is that part of the appeal of going down to basically like Lester giving you speeches, because, you know, you get the clicks from it. I don't know about all that. But I mean, at the end of the day, I can ask cello for the same thing. I'm not if you compare how much I'm getting from these kinds of videos compared to like, not about the money about influence, you know, you get loads of followers through it. Yeah, that's something I have to struggle with within myself to see what what are my true intentions because as a Muslim, spiritually, I should be effectively doing everything for the sake of God. That

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is the epitome of spirituality from Muslim paradise. The extent to which I'm upholding that standard is something which I don't know myself.

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To what extent Am I upholding the spiritual standard? I'm doing everything completely sincere. I have to manage my own inauthenticity just like I think everyone else does. So the accent I don't know what my intentions are. I'll add it to speak to psychiatrists for that.

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For a psycho as a psychotherapist, maybe the unconscious mind and the ego and the super ego are battling each other. But you know, I can't I can't say much about that. Apart from that, perhaps you're right. Perhaps you're right.

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Oh, yeah. So we've got the one coming up in Leicester, the festival has started, if trouble does kick off again, where do you go down? What are we gonna invite me? I'm gonna be invited to the temple?

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Well, I mean, look, I mean, to be honest with you.

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Once again, I will have to speak to the leaders of less than the Muslim leaders and to the police, the Leicestershire police, and to see if my presence will be conducive. I might even speak to you might have to give you a call and say, what do you what do you think? What do you think? Well, this channel whole thing? Do you think it will be welcome or welcome? And after I've made the after I've spoken to people who say not welcome, well, then in that case, I'll have to really think deeply about it. I will have to respect the wishes of good people like you and good people in Leicester

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i Listen, I'll tell you something, right? I'm the kind of individual that doesn't want to be tolerated. I want to be celebrated. So if I'm gonna go somewhere, the people that will get the teas and drinks ready for me, because I'm not going to just take pot. I'm not gonna send what I'm going to take over. That's the note with the click. But what I'm saying, what I'm saying is,

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yeah, I wouldn't do anything against the wishes of the people in this town. On a serious note, I wouldn't do that. And you wouldn't do it in the way you did. Because you accept that it was inflammatory going down, speaking to a group of boys already gotten used to come to speak to me from Channel Four, come to my office and speak to the micro influencers, Muhammad hijab. So in many ways, it's done this purpose. So I have to really think about the pros and the cons. I mean, potentially, you're right. I'll give you that maybe what I did needs refinement. And that's that is left for human beings. They look at what they've done. And they say, Okay, this is something that I won't do

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next time. I mean, what kind of unaccountable person would I be? If I didn't learn anything from this situation?

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I'm just I was just gonna ask you, what about would you do it again?

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It depends on I said, I'll ask him No, he said it asked

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if it was right now and the information you've got right now, what I do right now, probably not.

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Probably not Yeah.

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Probably not. Unless the people said please bring the people from London and do a protest because we need to fill up Lester and we need to make it you know, we need to do great you know, approach. So we know you have the capabilities in which case I say listen, you should not you know, we have we have a proverb in Arabic language. The the, the proverb goes as follows This is that seydel home Kadima home, which is that the leader of a tribe is their servant. So I would only do that which is in the service of my people. If people in Leicester said, I mean, a lot of people in Leinster, essentially, they don't want outsiders coming down. So if you heard that, yeah, I'll be deterred, of

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course.

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And in terms of, we were talking about young Muslim men, and you're talking about, you know, this path to extremism and stuff,

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it seems to me as somebody who grew up in Leicester, we used to call ourselves Asian, you know, Asian would mean.

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Now, there's a lot of identity politics, what's going on with young Muslim men? What's happening with the hymnbooks? Was the question because Islamic extremism has been around for a very long time. I mean, it's been around, let's be honest, for 2030 years in this country, at least. Okay, and

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what the recent change has actually not been from that side. It's been from the Hindutva side, I think that that the this radical ideology, which once again, imagine one of the leaders of the RSS, second chief, as is praising the Holocaust, and saying, We need a new one, this kind of ideology, which they're teaching in madrasahs type situations into mattresses in this case, you know, is finding its way in Leicester. And we have to, that's what I'm saying, we have to be open just like me, as a Muslim, I'm telling you, I'm telling we have to be open about our own kind of problems that we have. This, I think is a serious problem. And that's what's causing the issues. Why is it now

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when Modi has just become prime minister in 2014, or whatever it was, or the BJP party, which is actually taking on this ideology? Why is it now because that is the major change so you can make a cause causative argument from that perspective, but you feel there are more identity politics now.

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With people defining themselves by their religion.

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What are you talking about in the last 10 years?

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Yeah, possibly. I don't know. I haven't done sociological study on the matter. I would have to that. That is an issue of sociological academics, you know, investigation.

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I think that was

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I think that was

00:30:00--> 00:30:00

Hey.

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Thanks. So I just thought it was interesting that you came here. Yeah. And allegedly, some Hindus came from Wembley or went to Leicester. Okay, why doesn't want the lesson just happened around the corner? What do you mean?

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Why didn't happen?

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If I Okay, I don't think

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I don't think it would happen in London because there's at least 1.3 million Muslims in London.

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And less that is more equally proportionate in terms of the religious demographic. So Hindus are I don't know what the percentage argument Muslims but it's more balanced. Whereas Birmingham, according to census data, although the last census 2021 Has not the the data is not published. So when published in May, of 2023, I believe, but shows that Birmingham and Bradford in London are the most densely populated Muslim areas. So this amount of numbers, and this is why I called them cowards in the book, because they do it in areas where they know that the numbers, they're gonna have more numbers. This is a cowardly, cowardly approach. Moreover, I don't think in London, this

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would be you know, most Hindus and Muslims have a very close relationship, like in Wembley and these kinds of areas, they go to the same schools, they eat the same food, you know, maybe not the meat they do.

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Yes, but But I think it's, once again, it's

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unless thought this might be wrong here. But it's a little bit more ghettoized. Like there's more this is the Hindu area, there's the Muslim there. But Wembley is got both Muslims and Hindus. There's schools, which both Muslims and Hindus go to. So I think this intermixing okay, this intermixing of different people from different cultures, we've seen this from Pew Research, for example, the countries with the least amount of intermixing are the most racist countries. So one of the best ways to eradicate racism and racial supremacy in this kind of thing is just to pull together like we are in this room together, different colors, different, you know, creeds, and so

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on, but we can drink together, you can you can laugh, we can have a good time. And this is this is how to, like on a practical level to eliminate the hostilities. I just wonder, you talked about the fact that the Muslim community has had to deal with extremism, and you're saying the Hindu community now has to do? Why not?

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If you feel that's what's going on, why not teach them how to do it, rather than going being confrontational and loving people? I don't know. I don't think that I've never thought of that as an approach now that you put it forward, I'd have to study it.

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But then when we ask the question, okay, well bring the Hindu leaders to me, and I'll teach them all they want to know. But unfortunately, some of these Hindu leaders from these temples and so on, are complicit in bringing these hundreds of people go over. Like I forget her name, that Randy or whatever her name is, she came aboard and she's she's, she's an individual with an ideological baggage. And I actually believe and I haven't got studies to prove this, because I don't think any study has been done, that the Hindutva ideology as a proportion

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of Hindus, there is more support of it, then, for example, something true isn't the lack of which you see in Syria and Iraq. So I think it's a bigger problem. From a demographic perspective. I haven't got the evidence to show that but in that case, it would be more socially stigmatic for someone to come from Hindu community and speak against RSS will speak about because you got Modi I mean, you won't be able to go to India, if you speak about these kind of things. And he goes into probably be caught in the airport and then to detain you will send you back. We're talking about a an ideology that has been that an ideology that has been accepted now by the leaders of India,

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compared to a fringe ideology, that's all the leaders of the Islamic world and all the scholars and other centers of power have rejected. These are these are complications. And you've said that, you know, you would think twice about going back to the police haven't smoked, you told me to think twice about.

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If you accept now that when you're on camera saying we have to defend ourselves, you know, we're going to

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I can't remember your exact point. But you're saying you're saying you have a right to

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use reasonable force. That was provocative, you shouldn't be saying that. Right. Because you're saying to people, it's okay to be violent back? No. I mean, I think, well, violent back is a key point out what we pacifists, If someone slaps us, I mean, if someone came into this room right now, and they tried to attack you, I would get involved in the matter. But if it's a volatile situation, and you've got lots of young men all heads up on the streets, you know, I think there's some vulnerable people are being hurt, like on the 22nd of May, why, first of all, there was a 30 on one attack. And then after that the mother and the father of that person were also attacked. These are

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vulnerable people. When I heard things like this, it really made me upset to be honest with you, because I feel like we do have a duty of care to protect us as citizenry. Like, like I say, for me this idea of diffusion of responsibility.

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Because the police, we did have to put

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Do whatever the police weren't capable of doing that. I'm not sure if you've seen this statistics in this country, relating to how many stabbings happening on a daily basis on a yearly basis, sometimes of 49,000 50,000, these kind of things, do you really think the police in this country and less than the Metropolitan Police are reducing that they have a grip on the situation, and then if you had done you will be vigilantes, it wouldn't be because we're seeing reasonable, legal reasonable force. But what I'm what I'm against is in psychology, referred to as the diffusion of responsibility. I'm against a woman being sexually assaulted in the street and everyone just filming with their phone.

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I'm against this individualistic and notion egoistic notion that it's all about me, and I'm not going to get involved. I'm for a notion of bravery. Because my religion teaches me this, which you put your own self, your own life, at risk to defend the lives of others. And I think if we didn't have that mentality, the freedoms that we're all enjoying now wouldn't even exist. If you saw, you know, some young Muslim guys in Leicester have said to you, you know, we're gonna go in, rip a flag off a tennis ball, okay, yeah, that that kind of stuff is that kind of stuff is impermissible from the Islamic perspective. And I very categorically, on the record, told them do not do this kind of

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thing. The only thing which is allowed legally is reasonable force. And I think it's important for people to know that in our community, one thing that is plaguing not just Leicester or London or anywhere else, but the entire UK is commutative goes on to say the West, is this culture of diffusion of responsibility. Just let someone else deal with a call that by the time you call the police, the person would be debt. That's what people need to understand. The police are not a magic bullet. The police are there in some situations, and sometimes they're not there. Sometimes they'll do a tactical retreat themselves. And if that wasn't the case, and why would we have a pandemic of

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stabbings in this country? They're not holding, sorry to say, but I don't think that the police have the authority to deal with certain things, like the amount of stabbing that we're dealing with. So if it reaches that level, then the citizenry must know that there's something called reasonable force, which you you can use, would you condemn people pulling flags off? Absolutely. Yes. Attacking the boys. Oh, that is the most contemptible thing I can think of. I mean, there's verses of the Quran that you know, actually negate this kind of thing. But as Muslims, right, if we're talking about from the same paradigm, right,

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we don't believe in God and sure all of these kinds of Gods polytheistic, fictitious we believe me mythological, right? We don't believe in any of that we believe in one God worthy of worship, to believe that one God as the Creator of the universe, and that is responsible for the cosmological beginnings of the human being. However, the Quran explicitly says without a super Lithonia down I mean, doing in life and so Allah had one, right i Do not mock or attack or insult the gods of other people, other gods and so on. So that they may respond in kind, in other words, is a cycle of vengeance and a cycle of violence and a cycle of viciousness.

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Which, to be honest with you, for all intents and purposes, I cannot vicariously sympathize sympathize with. So it was wrong to tear down that. Oh, yes, it was one of the most wrong things that Muslims have done in in that hole. And there was other things that they did. Oh, absolutely, yes, very wrong. And, I mean, you're quoting the Quranic zine. But you yourself were mocking people's belief in reincarnation. And I said that, let me just repeat what I said. Just to remind you, I said that if I believed in it, I would not want to be reincarnated as a as a weak and pathetic and cowardly person. Now who was asking to Hindutva now I'm not saying the idea of

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reincarnation is XYZ fill in the blanks, US mocking terms. I'm saying if conditional, if I believed in it, which I don't think is theologically impossible for an all powerful God to reincarnate human beings. I don't believe in that. So logically, I think it's logically possible. We knew that wasn't the place to have that kind of debate on the streets that night whenever it was well done. Yeah. Okay. I see what you're saying this fourth, because you're saying this, I have to accept it. As a Hindu, right? Look, I have to be accountable, be respectful. And if people of the Indian community like yourself or anyone else, is telling me that this was distasteful, we didn't like it. That's all

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that you need to hear from Amazon.

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I will do it again. Why as a gesture of respect and a gesture of community cohesion of gesture of tolerance, there's no need for me. This is not like it's not a buy. It's not a mountain I want to die on. Like, if you felt like it was distasteful and it was triggering and so on. There's no need for it and I won't do that again.

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Great