Mohammad Elshinawy – S2 EP8 Our Imams, Our Lifeline – Behind the Minbar Podcast

AI: Summary ©
The speakers discuss the challenges of finding one's place in the world and finding one's place in the world. They emphasize the importance of community and building a community for growth and profitability. The speakers also emphasize the need for authentic learning and a teacher's mindset to address modern day issues. They emphasize the importance of educating parents and creating healthy environments for mental health and family-related activities. The speakers also emphasize the need for privacy and boundaries between old people and newcomers, and the importance of community involvement.
AI: Summary ©
Bismillah alhamdulillah, salatu wassalamu ala rasoolillah, welcome back
everyone to behind the minbar, blueprints for a
better masjid and We are honored to have
Sheikh Yasser Birjes with us We're not going
to do that cliche thing of shaking hands
as if we just walk into the room,
right?
Let me start by saying, everything that is
said correct in today's episode is from Allah
azza wa jalla And everything that I say
wrong, it's because Sheikh Yasser Birjes did not
write his books yet So we put these
podcasts together to work through the conversations that
we need to be having and having faster
until Sheikh Yasser publishes his books and we'll
get to that inshallah I've been asking him
for years, and then welcome Sheikh Yasser Jazakallah
khair The audience needs to know that it's
11pm at night and you have a flight
that you're probably going to leave your hotel
for at 3-4am So this is not
something we take lightly and it's something we
deeply value and we're not for the fact
that I believe this should be your podcast
And this is your domain more so than
it is mine, I would not have embarrassed
myself and leaned in and asked you But
jazakallah khair for being with us Pleasure being
with you all the time Akramakallah Sheikh So
we want to talk about the life of
an imam in America So many directions to
take it, so much perspective we need from
you Let's at least get it started in
this episode You as an imam, did you
choose it or was it chosen for you?
Subhanallah I always called myself an accidental imam
Because originally when I first came to the
US, I used to work in Bosnia in
relief work And then I was called to
come by family members to come and join
a community in El Paso, Texas They're looking
for an imam and so I said look,
I'm not an imam, I'm not this, I'm
not that But subhanallah, they asked me to
come and check it out and see And
it was my first time coming to the
US, I was very impressed.
Alhamdulillah.
I mean, I loved the opportunity I saw
the opportunity, the da'a was amazing.
It was beautiful Subhanallah, the plan was to
stay there as an imam for a few
years because they had a project to build
a masjid And I wanted to help them
with that.
Inshallah, once it's over then khalas, my job
is done and I move on This is
El Paso.
That was in El Paso, Texas back in
2000 I came there Spent a few years,
alhamdulillah The project was over But then there's
always that pull, you know to keep you
in this position And then I came to
meet Sheikh Muhammad Sharif, rahmatullah alayh, who brought
me into Al Maghrib Institute.
Then you feel that responsibility really Realizing that
look, I mean the masjid, mashallah, start kind
of like increasing in numbers But we didn't
have enough Qualified cadre to fill up all
these empty spaces like the community builds a
masjid And then start thinking of looking for
an imam And I thought that that was
Maybe not the best model Subhanallah, but alhamdulillah
then after nine years I I was between
going to to Texas to Dallas or Go
to Chicago Subhanallah, I was kind of like
Invited to go to Chicago.
So go there Spent one year or less
a little bit less then I decided to
go back again to Texas I thought that
Texas was my place.
Subhanallah.
So I came back to Dallas So from
there, like I said, you know being an
imam was not really something I planned but
I thought it was Chosen Be with Allah's
Qadar Uh, is there like a pivotal moment
where I know if you're involved in something
it kind of becomes hard dying on you
I suppose everybody else it's a collective obligation
But once you get involved you kind of
need to power through was that it or
did you feel like there's nothing better?
I need I I could be doing with
my life This is where Allah's pleasure is
paramount considering the needs of the hour Well,
honestly, I thought that this is how this
is the the amana Yeah, and you came
over here and you speak with imams and
communities and visit places you realize how difficult
to me to find imams to these communities
and Unfortunately, some masajid don't return the imam
for a very long time And then when
you when you hold on to a position
you see that the huge responsibility upon you
to take care of the community I mean
And also working with the maghreb institute becoming
a public speaker traveling around speaking conferences I
always felt a responsibility and amana of every
day to be anchored in a in a
host community like you have to be really
Building a community like you're just going around
and giving talks and speak to people and
that doesn't build a community really It builds
audience But does not build community you need
to need to anchor yourself in a place
where you are building alhamdulillah From the masjid
to the groups that work with you and
the dawah The effort and bringing the muslims
back to the masajid and bringing the muslims
to islam alhamdulillah And also improving the quality
of the community as well That's the purpose
of it.
If you look at the prophet's mission was
all about that building communities shepherding Absolutely bringing
them together.
Absolutely Subhanallah.
Dr. Hatem used to say to me that
You will never change anyone's life by parachuting
into their city and giving them a lecture
You may convince them to want to change
their life But there's a big difference between
wanting to and actually getting there.
Absolutely.
It's a process sort of the pedagogical Just
taking classes is not sufficient until you really
live with the sheikhs We live with the
imam with your teachers and And be close
with them and subhanallah and taking classes going
out with them and living life and see
them how they live their life as well,
too That could be inspiring Subhanallah our young
cameraman Taha on the way over here Asked
me he said sheikh, do we know how
the prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam prepared his
lectures?
and so it's It was a wonderful question
because ultimately the prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam
as far as we know didn't really give
lectures the way we give He taught them
in real life situations.
He gave them instructions He piecemealed it modeled
it for them corrected gently Taught proactively but
not in this sort of didactic 45 minute
to an hour at a time He would
not sit down to give an official talk
except for khutbah al-jumu'ah and even
that wasn't very long So I don't expect
people to watch every episode Uh of this
podcast, so that's why I don't get tired
of myself repeating Uh certain data and I
believe it's just so important half the masajid
in the country don't have imams and The
half that do sometimes all they have is
an imam And sometimes that imam Is not
being used optimally or is not optimally prepared.
What do you think is the biggest challenge?
In sort of the the imam world or
the american muslim, you know community world, unfortunately
we have um, So much demand but not
enough supply and even the supply that we
have is not really uh, Between qualified or
even interested like we have a huge leak
in the muslim community when it comes to
imams See leaving the position and going so
you're talking about qualified trained, but they're just
not interested in community So that's one problem
that's one those are qualified many of them
don't want to be in the imam position
anymore so they go to work for example
for Relief organizations Um, some of them they
just build their own institute and start teaching
instead of just being an imam or others
Maybe depend on revenues comes from social media
perhaps and so on especially young ones Subhanallah,
but there's a huge leak like we're losing
a lot of qualified imams or at least
potential imams for the future Um and and
many imams who are alhamdulillah and they're holding
the position sometimes they um They don't really
they don't really upgrade their skills to the
level where the community is growing with them
So the community grows way way ahead and
they're still They're still behind and unfortunately many
many communities would like to depend on Imams
who don't maybe uh, I mean cost them
a lot to uh to hire So they
only bring prayer leaders But not community builders
So if you want to have a prayer
leader I mean, you're just gonna bring somebody
who will just be doing the bare minimum
of work in the masjid So how do
we work past that?
Uh From the expectation side, right?
No, uh I expect you know a job
that gives me a respectable salary, but also
I expect someone that Accepts me as a
human being no Well, I mean for an
imam to be an imam honestly the most
important thing you have to love people If
you don't love people or you care about
people, it's not your place That most beloved
people to allah those are most beneficial to
others And frankly if you look at the
prophet, he genuinely genuinely loved the people He
generally loved the people even those who opposed
him He would he would do everything in
his power to bring him to to islam
subhana But he's keeping escaping from his hand
salawat allah's voice.
So he really genuinely He cared for the
people.
I know all this crap, but in the
quran about him salawat allah Like anything hurts
you will hurt him keen for what is
beneficial to you and What the believers very
very compassionate salawat allah So he truly genuinely
love the people so if anybody is not
in that business I don't think this is
a good place for them.
That's the first thing people should understand about
that Now as I often i've repeatedly hear
heard you say over the years.
This needs to be a passion not a
profession.
Absolutely Absolutely, and if you don't enjoy Really
doing it and if you don't enjoy it
Yeah, I need a sacrifice that you put
in order for you to guide somebody or
help someone or even handle yeah, I mean
help somebody learn the quran or Or bring
the community together so that they can have
a beautiful program for their children and for
the families if you don't enjoy that stuff
Then that's not for you What if they
enjoy it?
You know the reason the way I think
about a few things these days speaking to
my high schoolers about it is that This
is they call it self-determination theory what
makes someone self-motivated it's like three factors
there's like agency and aptitude and Belonging so
I feel a sense of belonging.
This is a calling.
This is my job Allah's gonna ask me
community needs me the amanah you spoke on
no, but then there's the aptitude am I
competent enough?
whether islamically or just sort of Like does
shaykh yasser ever feel?
Self-doubt does shaykh yasser ever feel like
he's about to burn out That's an intimidation
factor that could like flush the passion out
of them Actually, it's not that if he
if he fears it's going to happen it
happened multiple times Because one of the biggest
problems we have in our communities Unfortunately is
the imam's job or position in the community
is is a like a straight line Which
means uh, uh, it really never never goes
up Well goes down goes up go down.
So although that's an ever-expanding pool of
responsibility.
Exactly Exactly.
So as the community grows the responsibility also
grows, but the imam's Uh qualifications stays as
is they don't send him for example for
training The imam sometimes they've banned him from
going to conferences because now we want you
this weekend for example Rather than going there
and learn something new for the community Uh,
they don't even sometimes you know send them
like even in corporate america For example, you
send some of your employees to go and
get a master's degree.
Yeah, but basically the communities don't really invest
in upgrading the skills of their imams So
as a result, of course the imams would
eventually would only put effort um For the
skill that they have and as a result
after a few years when they run out
of ideas They're not out of programs or
activities They just feel burned out and that's
why we have this whole cycle of Average
imam's position in our community is five to
seven years and they keep going out out
there But if the community invests in the
imam's position Meaning the imam for example after
seven years Upgrade to put different position in
the community or send them for example to
study for the two years not send them
But at least give them for example Uh
an opportunity to study for two years or
something get a master's degree and new skills
that would help them whether it's a leadership
Or adult education and training or anything like
that So the idea is that we have
to invest in human resources More than anything
else people they would say but wait a
minute It's going to cost a lot or
the salaries are the highest thing, you know
Cost of the community, but yeah, if you
have alhamdulillah a good leadership That brings you
good programming that money that you invest in
and And in the payments that you give
you're going to give it get it back
again.
Alhamdulillah and Recruiting community members and also more
donations and and the growth of the community
inshallah And you will see it it's not
going to be a problem subhanallah you see
the communities that have invested in talent Uh,
even if we just mean to recruit talent
Even just that People move to those communities.
They say oh, I need someone to address
my kids because I can't I need someone
to you know, uh To die and leave
my my children with when I leave right
it's it's the anchor and it is the
security mechanism and it should be I mean
the prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam said Right
my as-sahaba or my amanah Sort of
the trickle effect is true or it gets
passed on sheikh.
I do want to double click on something
because we addressed in previous episodes the issue
of uh Investing in imams meaning proactively instead
of waiting for an imam 10 years just
send an imam It'll take you four years
you come back have a fellowship type setup
They'll be contracted to be with you for
at least two years just like any profession
might do uh but we never touched what
you just mentioned before which is continual investment
I I've noticed myself that the imams that
have been disproportionately impactful In the united states
that have studied outside of the country are
those that didn't settle for their seminary training
Right they insisted on learning english or insisted
on getting a secondary degree or getting certifications
or otherwise How important is that?
How have you found that beneficial?
I know you've done that yourself Uh, and
what do you think are the most important
advices about the directions to apply themselves to
continued learning?
So obviously graduating from medina university It gives
you the information doesn't give you the skill
to be an imam really like there's reason
there was no practical training For being an
imam.
They don't they don't forget about leadership.
Talk about being an imam counseling like there
is no no Course, I would say that
will teach you What are the the how
how to lead the salah how to run
the khutbah of jumah?
They give you the fiqh of jumah the
fiqh of salah and this and but nothing
about the actual Uh profession that you might
be assuming in the future whether it's being
a teacher Being an imam being a public
speaker none of that stuff, unfortunately, let alone
of course on subject of leadership So therefore
when I came into the u.s. Alhamdulillah,
I I realized immediately Since I came from
bosnia.
So my second language was after arabic was
bosnian already And it took me a while
to switch obviously And I didn't know much
of english.
But one thing I learned I immediately put
as a as a as a priority If
i'm going to be in this place, uh
For some time then I need to make
sure to deliver the message in the language
that the people understand As allah subhanahu wa
ta'ala mentioned that about the anbiya and
the prophets, right?
So you explain to the people through of
course their own tongue so that was my
purpose so I start learning even english From
the very beginning by going to the library
and getting kids books for my kids and
learn with them as well And then we
start having digital dictionary kind of translate words
for you reading books and so on and
so on And you have the But I
also um Yeah, I made it imperative upon
myself never stop growing in terms of knowledge
So you have the sharia knowledge Which you
keep reading and sometimes summarizing and sometimes doing
certain classes for the for the community and
for the masjid and so on With the
maghreb institute as well to doing the research
for these classes and so on.
So that's the sharia growth goes with it
But also the skill How to deliver that
That's something that I need really to learn
differently like I keep telling people subhanallah when
we're in medina I taught sheikh muhammad sharif
rahim allah ta'ala how to seek knowledge
In america, he taught me how to deliver
that So, uh, and I benefit a lot
from his uh, sheikh.
I think it's worth it that you without
cutting you off to just For not just
for his reward, but for us all as
a refresh we The evolving needs of the
community addressing modern day issues How'd you go
about figuring out what I need to do
what the framing should be Same traditional knowledge.
We're going to be authentic but sort of
a modern framing for it.
So two things obviously number one is um
the priority Like what do people really need?
Versus what you need to teach them So
as a teacher what i'd like to review
exactly from my notes like many many imams
and I've seen some others Mashayikh and so
on when they teach in the masjid They
just want to teach classical ilum, which is
beautiful.
Nothing wrong with that For example, you want
to do a class on fiqh, for example
or Detailing a class on aqidah, for example,
there is no doubt.
These are a very important subject But at
the same time there are certain Immediate issues
the community is going through marriage issues Parenting
issues Economic issues and all these things and
so on so and now we're addressing these
issues for the community Mental health issues for
example all these things So you start seeing
what are the trends what the community is
really looking for?
What do we need?
So we start kind of highlighting these subjects
and addressing these issues So that brings of
course people to come and listen and and
hear from you the second thing the methodology
And alhamdulillah in classical format of teaching obviously
we have a special way of learning the
shaykh is speaking everybody is sitting down taking
notes But no now the modern day of
teaching is different you have to involve, of
course the the audience you have to Take
in consideration that they don't come empty They
come with at least in half full quarter
full with knowledge of the subject that you're
teaching and so on Also people they need
to Know why they're learning this exactly so
it's a whole different model of teaching We
were able to highlight what are the priorities
that people are looking for And then alhamdulillah
working on the model as well of how
to teach that for the later baraka wa
ta'ala and and it launched your your
career and your Your style so the needs
and the styles.
Absolutely So you said the priorities and then
how we're going to deliver them.
Absolutely so it seems to me could be
my bias for sure that uh, like foundational
faith and its counterpart, of course the need
being Widespread not that our communities are being
overrun, but there is significant phenomenon of crisis
of faith What advice would you give to
imams in handling this phenomenon whether proactively or
like on in a case management?
It's the same thing.
Like we said, you know, you need to
look for the priorities, right?
Even when the subject would come to teaching
tawheed, for example naqeeda I mean imams, they
love to teach harith Um, I was one
of them as well too when I first
teaching aqeed in the beginning jibreel and talk
about But then we don't tackle the issues
that now the new generation is dealing with
Like a few years back when people want
to ask faith issues, they would say why
allah said that for example And what does
allah mean by this for example right now
the people ask why allah and What's the
way and why do I have to do
this and why this one is a question
even the authority?
Of the quran the son of the prophet
sallallahu alaihi wa sallam these things needs to
be really highly addressed very well and properly
But it's not just a matter of giving
a class.
It's creating an entire culture in the measure
that will Bring the people to inshallah to
learn these things.
So I believe personally The most important thing
that to build a community is what I
like to call the culture of the community
like the identity Like if you enter if
you enter a masjid And you cannot sense
from the community.
What is this about?
Then that's a shortcoming.
That's a shortcoming.
Absolutely But you go to such communities, for
example, you realize these people tabarak allah or
family oriented For example, this one is more
educational this one have some sort of like
a activism political kind of This one a
humanitarian this one is very traditional for example,
right?
But some communities you go to there's you
don't feel anything.
It's just a matter of a masjid open
for salah and and all the classes are
just Traditional classes everywhere else.
They don't necessarily give people what they need
for real life issues.
Give them what they want And if you
would like to benefit the people you have
to focus on what they need Not just
what they want give them what they need
in a way they want absolutely You give
them what they need you give them what
they need.
They never go.
You know, you never go wrong with that
family issues family crises relationship crises Do how
does your masjid seek to proactively handle that?
Do you see that as an imam's job
or do you pull in smes?
How?
Frequently do you address parenting and marital coaching
needs as an imam?
You have to be resourceful I can't cover
every subject.
I'm not qualified for every topic, but I
need those who are qualified for it.
So Think about it now.
I just need to hear that Look about
10 years ago for example more than 10
years ago.
We started this many many years back More
than 10 years ago parents came to me.
They asked me to um teach them teach
their kids certain stuff and so on but
instead of me teaching the children I created
the um, like a series of parenting workshops
and subhanallah since then it's still still be
running Every we have series of parenting workshops
Because I believe that the parents also need
to be educated About what we need to
discuss with their children.
I don't want to talk to your kids.
I want to talk to you Exactly like
you you're the you're the first teacher for
your children So i'm going to talk to
you about what you need to talk to
your children about How do we have youth
directors as well who are taking care of
their kids on their own but the point
is That we need to educate the the
family.
So alhamdulillah our programming is usually Focusing on
what people really need.
So we have age groups and we have
of course the adults as well have their
own needs So alhamdulillah, we kind of like
more Focus on demographics and age groups and
demands and needs and we cover all the
areas as much as we can inshallah You
cannot just uh Keep the measure running on
one size fit all kind of programming like
family night.
We call it What's the point of it?
What was that?
Yeah, right.
I mean Last night we had a family
night in the masjid and the topic was
masjid safety in preparation for the month of
ramadan And the purpose was to talk about
Most common accidents happen to children in the
masjid And who was speaking there?
We have a whole team called vric Medical
emergency response team So those are doctors and
security people and and health care providers in
the community.
MashaAllah They are a full team and they
came and they talked about the age groups
This age group is the most common accidents
happen to them in the masjid This age
group this age group and talk with the
people about okay in terms of something like
this happens Please make sure to do one
two and three and four These are the
things that people need You know They might
not think that they want that because it's
not it doesn't sound like an entertaining subject
for them, but they really need it And
alhamdulillah people appreciate that stuff tomorrow inshallah I
don't know what is going to be broadcasted.
But tomorrow for example, i'm having also a
parenting workshop And it's going to be about
children in the quran in preparation for the
month of ramadan this one will be given
Well, I also bring experts I bring with
me the the head of the quran school
One of the quran teachers and how and
once a student of the school as well,
too and a parents Who have kids learning
the quran?
We also bring a professional therapist who talk
about the psychology of of all this stuff
and so on I'm only just the organizer
And my job is to talk about the
religious aspect of caring for our children connecting
to the quran And the rest of the
techniques and the skill and everything else has
a professional voice.
So the idea is to be resourceful To
provide to people what they need And you
don't have to do everything yourself beautiful I
mean the reason i'm asking all these questions
in case anyone doesn't notice is It would
help the the sense of competence and you
know, uh ability of the imam his self
-worth To know okay I need to be
diligent in just these issues and I can
delegate those issues and you make you bring
a beautiful point that a Lot of these
people are already in our communities.
No, you would just tap on their shoulders
They may actually feel wanted in the more
sense of belonging and you just activate them
That's all you really need to do.
Sometimes the institute of the imams Puts a
like a gatekeeping culture You know, they don't
want anyone to come and talk in the
masjid because i've seen this to be sure
them to be kind of like An incompetent
or not qualified for this and so on.
So they're really just kind of like Keep
the masjid circulating around their program and their
activities your committee is not going to grow
and at some point They'll outgrow your program
And they will see that and that imam
eventually is not going to be there for
too long Yeah, and abu salam listened to
uh, i'm sharing this for whoever doesn't know
it.
Obviously, you're my sheikh But I think of
salman right?
We said the sassanid persians used to use
this method of Uh holding out the siege
by digging trenches so they didn't have to
engage in active combat And he listened Or
when he said it's not a good place
to stay in the army at badr Evolution
of the imam is what i'm feeling and
hearing Have you ever thought about what imams
may need in the near future considering online
platforms digital media uh, the messages inshallah becoming
more nuanced youth director So, um The biggest
challenge for not just masjid any home house
of worship And all religions organized religion really
is the challenge of the of the internet
because uh, um In the past people used
to come to the masjid to the house
of worship for almost everything Related to their
faith.
So whether it's the information the knowledge the
social gatherings and activities The the help and
assistance the spiritual as tons of that stuff
right now people don't seem to be um
Need that that knowledge from you in the
masjid anymore So when you make a big
fancy You know program and and lecture you'll
find a handful of people really come to
it But if you if you come and
and do a food fest For thousands of
people come flocking to it.
For example, why why what happened there?
See because for the subject of knowledge people
now they have uh, um The ilm already
provided for them online for free even Not
just that they have a variety of teachers
There was a time I remember in el
paso, texas but Yeah over 20 plus years
ago When when the youtube became something We
start seeing some of the mashayekh that we
never think of bringing to el paso on
youtube.
So you have a youtube halaqa Like a
youtube.
Yep.
Yep in the masjid people watch watch party,
right?
Exactly.
Subhanallah.
It was a big deal But now you
have all these mashayekh That you can pause
the lecture and save it and this and
that and so on So that was a
big challenge for the role of the imam
in the masjid if the imam is is
not really um If the imam is taking
his role as traditional leadership, meaning khutbatul juma
Halaqa after fajr lecture and that's it then
They're not gonna last long because people don't
come to the masjid anymore for these things
anymore They come for what the internet does
not provide for them.
And that's the social belonging They want to
belong to a community.
They want to feel part of something So
therefore we focus so much alhamdulillah and community
on social programming Social programming involved like for
example community breakfast 500 people come for the
community breakfast What are you going to serve?
I mean brisket brisket you texans in the
brisket.
That's that's for dinner but for breakfast I'm
not a brisket guy.
By the way, I'll tell you what for
breakfast.
We'll still get to nihari Just to tell
you and other things alhamdulillah But people mashallah
come about 500 people come to that breakfast
event alhamdulillah you do um uh an evening
program for the family and the children for
example, like a uh, more of like a
uh, Uh kahoot program or event or something
like that And after that there's a social
time outside having tea cookies and so on
whether the committee gets together people.
They love these kind of events uh in
addition to talk about the things that they
um, we don't seem to be brave enough
to talk about them, you know Uh openly
so we talk about family issues what happened
between husband wife parenting and children In-laws
issues all these kind of things like what
people really don't see it in lectures You
create programs for it and people will come
I'm also hearing from you Don't believe the
hype like as the digital world becomes people
start living like vicariously through like, you know,
uh digital world They're going to become more
and more empty more and more thirsty for
belonging.
Oh, yeah, so the imams of tomorrow need
to be ready uh To embrace them, right?
There's going to be a greater demand not
even tomorrow It's already today It's not even
yesterday There's a lot of people right people
want community more than they want community more
than more than ever Yeah that the knowledge
right now the information is not a priority
for them But it's the identity the belonging
that they that they they care for for
themselves and for their families as well, too
I have a few personal questions shaykh, but
I want to ask one final community-based
question in terms of the life of the
imam uh You are the imam at valley
ranch islamic center Uh, but you're involved in
more than what comes to mind when people
think of the traditional imam role How involved
do you believe the imam should be in
the overall vision of a community because the
community Starting to become a small village or
a little city, right a micro micro city
So how much of that should the imam
be in and how much should the imam
insulate himself to do little less things better?
It really depends on the the uh, you
know, the kind of community that you're building
around you But alhamdulillah from the very beginning
our community is very clear on the identity
We're a family oriented community.
We're building a community on a message and
everybody believed in that and everybody really, uh,
uh supports of that vision alhamdulillah So that's
why all the programming heads in that direction.
It's already that alignment exactly So my job
became alhamdulillah is to make sure that how
however we evolve It's all heading in the
same direction.
So for example One of the early committees
that we establish in the community is the
women committee believe it or not Because i'm
a strong believer that subhanallah if we have
a healthy women community It brings the men
and the women and the children to the
masjid but having a strong men's community They
usually don't like to bring their families and
the kids within southern asia, for example or
or programs They just want to pray and
just spend some time go back home But
if you bring the ladies and have their
programs alhamdulillah after they start bringing the husband
they bring the children You you build a
community, uh behind it So that's one of
the early committees we had and then we
have a program committee Then you have the
quran school committee.
You have the weekend community Then we establish
alhamdulillah a men's committee who is responsible for
the men's also and the youth they had
their own also, uh programming so Everything is
masha'allah as it evolves, but everything should
be Kind of like funneling into the same
direction in that same vision So as an
imam alhamdulillah, I make sure that we're still
into the same vision the same direction for
allah No matter how big we grow We
need to keep everybody inshallah on the same
page As for the decision making My job
is the mashoorah The decision at the end
of the day is in the hand of
the political leadership of the community and that's
the board Now that sounds like a very
wide net you've cast to bring in as
many people as possible What challenges do you?
See in terms of maintaining diversity Obviously the
when the community starts growing It starts getting
divided on sometimes ethnical racial sometimes ideological or
whatever that is But alhamdulillah, we don't have
that as as a major issue in our
community But I see it actually like I
hear you in fundraisers saying like the the
cricket team or the Pakistani physicians or whatnot.
No, but it doesn't seem sectarian.
It does at least not outwardly It's alhamdulillah.
The thing is that obviously a cliquish mentality
start develop being developed Between the newcomers the
older ones and this and that and so
on So we try to break this by
creating all these events That will help everybody
regardless of their background to participate So when
you have all these programs to break this
this cycle, for example, we have the men's
retreat for example We had masha'allah 154
people come to the retreat different age groups
Different demographics background spending all weekend together and
by the time they came back alhamdulillah back
home They broke the ice for life We
do umrah for example, we take different families
together from different backgrounds.
They come back alhamdulillah.
They're like one family So we're trying to
do all the programs we can to break
all this uh Division there's imagined boundaries as
we call them Psychologically speaking actually the sociologically
speaking I would say it's proven that The
community is very intimate as long as it
doesn't grow, uh beyond 150 members Once you
become more than 150, that's it.
You become diluted.
It's no longer as intimate as it should
be So as the community is growing masha
'allah, you can see that they are forming
their own Comfort groups I would say but
we make sure alhamdulillah that they're not in
trenches camps Too isolated from each other.
I mean, we don't we don't claim to
be perfect You can always find people have
their favorites.
Obviously, I mean no matter how much you
try but at least alhamdulillah overall, it's not
um It's not the highlight of the community
is not on the front stage of the
community But something maybe it's not that of
a big deal for us alhamdulillah Alhamdulillah, this
sounds like a lot of work.
So how do you reconcile this with?
Our primary function our duties to our families
the imam's life, uh With wife and child
It's not easy Honestly, it's not easy.
I mean the family usually takes that the
greatest.
Yeah I would say uh liability of being
the imam's uh family, you know, it seems
that people They think the imam And the
imam family should be at the same level
They don't realize the expectation.
Exactly.
You don't realize that your family is a
private citizen to you, right?
They're not they're not the imam.
They're not Representing the imamship of your imam
and so on but there is a lot
of unfortunate pressure on on Imams families and
honestly, this is one of the biggest issues
imam they deal with in their communities like
sometimes if if If the imam is not
well taken care of Obviously the family is
not going to be happy with that And
they will put pressure on the on the
imam really to uh, no resent community and
maybe religion exactly And as a result you
find some imams wives completely isolate themselves And
Try to protect the family and the kids
from from any pressure that comes from the
community And we we had our share.
SubhanAllah as we grow up in the communities
And sometimes the people they wonder why your
kid didn't go to islamic schools, for example
because we tried but unfortunately, I mean It's
not healthy for our kids, unfortunately There is
always expectation different from them than anybody else
Same thing, you know your family don't really
maybe Show up very often in most programs
or many programs for the exact same reasons.
Unfortunately, there's a lot of expectation But alhamdulillah,
I mean if you build a very healthy
social uh environment and social network with the
community And your family is part of it
for the light that is the pressure a
lot on you So that's how the community
perceives your family in a way that could
be uh detrimental to them What about your
availability for your family?
Uh, or your emotional well-being For your
family, I mean keep in mind, you know
as they when they're younger They probably do
more So alhamdulillah, I mean, you know, you
spend time with them and even when I
was traveling with the maghreb institute And make
sure that uh, and when the school is
off if they need me to teach somewhere
you have to bring my family with me
Because they're a priority but alhamdulillah, they they
they made friends almost all over the place
from the light of allah Um also when
you're home you try your best to focus
also that they have their time and sometimes
I don't care about my duty to the
measure in that time because that's my family
time right now So I spend that time
with them alhamdulillah as they grow older, obviously
The pressure is a bit less and less
So, uh, you dedicate more time for the
community perhaps alhamdulillah your personal duties as well
too and so on but It's a very
delicate situation That you need to be make
sure when you come home You don't bring
the masjid business with you for the family
to deal with May I ask if you
have uh, like no masjid discussion rules at
home That's a given thing Not even actually
I need it's not I don't even discuss
it myself.
I don't have to discuss it myself Uh,
you don't get requests forwarded through others to
you Yeah, and if that happens very limited,
but they know me I tell even if
my offers on people they go through my
wife I tell my wife says ask them
to email me because I want to Get
my wife out of it.
So it doesn't have to be burned out
because of it.
That's one thing second thing I don't allow
people to call me my personal number.
Um, you know for uh, for business Masjid
business except of course the board and those
are official general So you believe imams should
have two phones or two numbers?
Well, I have one number and if no
one, uh, anybody calls on my private number
I say to them email me like I
try my best not to uh Do that
because it's not fair for my family and
after isha People want to call text you
because that's when they're free or even on
the weekends Like everybody wants to meet with
you on the weekends I hear you but
also When you're off my kids are also
off as well too on the weekend.
They're not they're not off on the weekdays.
Yeah So try the evenings Can I meet
you at isha like yeah, but that's my
my hour with my family, right?
Yeah One time somebody called me and that
was long long time ago when I was
still beginner as an imam So somebody called
me around 2 a.m I was like,
whoa I'm gonna divorce my wife.
Exactly.
Really?
Sure, i'm gonna divorce my wife I said,
okay, go ahead Assalamu alaikum and I hung
up.
Oh my god And and then I unplugged
the phone It was the home the whole
house.
Yeah, the next day he meet me he
goes when I called yesterday, you know, uh,
Were you serious when you told me the
divorcer?
I said well, you called me at 2
a.m to divorce.
You must be serious yourself So why are
you calling me?
But alhamdulillah, they're still together.
Yeah until the But I told people I
made an announcement I said don't you ever
ever they're calling me after isha If anything
happens You have uh Authority to deal with
you have other people to talk take about
if it's something other than emergency Don't call
me I think whether it's isha or not
our listeners should just hear Like not necessarily
the letter of the law, but the spirit
of the law they need to know What
will and will not be accepted?
No, and I I'm not saying but i'm
not saying I don't take any phone calls.
Yeah, but actually I ask people to email
me But set the expectation and leave me
your phone number And I call them back
So I call them back when i'm free
for that, uh, alhamdulillah, my mind is free
for this instead of me trying to uh,
call them Uh when i'm busy or my
mind is not there for them or they
call me when i'm exhausted and tired So
it's it's there's there is a time for
that I really appreciate you.
I I I personally all the time, you
know, sometimes I hear the hadith Rahimahullah when
he asked her mother Did he ever pray
seated she said Yes after he was wore
out by the people And then other times
you hear the hadith of like when he
spoke he would turn entirely Right, he wouldn't
be multitasking and we're as guilty as it
comes with this sort of stuff and you're
trying to reconcile Everyone's got to figure out
their fix or we're human being after all.
Yeah, he would have to understand that Yeah,
we have our own weaknesses our own shortcomings
our struggles And alhamdulillah imams not prophets and
we hope that our the good thing that
we bring to the community Will inshallah outweigh
the mistakes and the the faults that we
have I mean, can I ask one last
question?
One regret you have That you wish to
save other imams from well, it's honestly it's
too I mean, I don't know how to
say that but um I hope the young
imams In addition to working for the community
very well inshallah That they can I don't
want to say find any um side hustle
But if they can if they can find
a way to create silent income So that
when they reach certain age, they don't have
to depend on the community for uh, uh
for earning for living Rather their income is
a hand of providing for them enough To
enjoy doing the thing they do they want
to do the best for the community So
some investments will be smart inshallah to do
so if they can talk to some professional
investors, maybe what they can do Without having
to take away from their time with their
communities.
That would be great Otherwise, unfortunately what i've
seen some other imams they do They do
two three or four jobs That takes so
much from the energy That when they come
to the masjid, they're underperforming big time Sheikh
mass exodus of imams from masajid or masajid
not hiring.
What's your advice?
How do we reverse this?
The communities need to understand that the imam
position Is different than corporate america?
Because in corporate america we deal with with
money with products with numbers with stuff like
that and so on But here the imam's
position is really it's human.
Yeah resources He is working his heart into
the community.
So he's developing people And that there's no
price tag on it really So therefore you
need to qualify the imam for this level
Hopefully inshallah.
Hopefully the imam has his heart into it
And if we take care of them very
well, we hope it brings their heart into
the community inshallah unfortunately because of this whole
uh, the drama that happens between the board
and that keep changing and sometimes you know,
the Uh, the the perpetual leadership that has
in the communities and forcing imams into doing
things.
They don't want to do Or unfortunately put
them on the salary that's not even sufficient
for them to survive.
I mean Along with with family as it
grows with them A lot of young imams
no longer interested in coming to these positions
and I feel I feel sometimes upset At
these young imams because many of them not
young imams young graduates Who graduate from islamic
seminaries and universities and so on and when
they come and you ask them what they're
going to do for living?
they just They don't have the imamship in
their on their mind And I think it's
the fact that they went to study all
these years Becomes Fault upon them.
There's an obligation upon them to take this
position.
That shouldn't be taken lightly I remember dr
Hatim also like a brother asked him should
I go to medina or not?
I finally got accepted if it's a bit
late and I don't know He said listen,
do you plan on being an imam or
not?
He said this to him He said you
are being educated by the zakah money of
people who intended to produce imams No, so
don't fill that seat.
Don't accept that, you know free pass Uh
that blank check unless you're going to put
it back into the community.
Absolutely So that that's your message to the
imams and you said the board give them
stability make them Certain confident that they're in
it.
We're supposed to be working together not against
each other and if the imam position and
the political leadership in the masjid would work
here as a flat leadership in a way
where they Support each other as i'm working
against each other.
That's how it should be.
That's beautiful advice I think The communities are
starting to wake up to Paying respectable salaries
not forcing them to three jobs But what
if they not enough of them wake up
fast enough what?
We need to compensate that with some passive
income some thinking for yourself.
How can I become financially independent so I
can give more?
And one of the major issues is the
401k for imams which is still The vast
majority of masajid don't even have it Yeah,
and when you give this to your medical
insurance, well when you give this to your
imam from the very beginning of their employment
You're telling them that I will I want
to keep you until your retirement So I
want to take care of you when you
retire diamonds are forever very much But if
the imam he knows that his contract is
for two years or three years And he's
gonna start looking from the end of year
one.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Yeah And definitely you're not gonna have his
heart in the community anymore I'm gonna get
heavy on your scales.
When can we expect the books?
um I'm, not giving you homework.
I'm sort of wanting to get out of
this seat Right now some students marshal in
the masjid.
They're collecting the recordings and so on Fantastic
and the work on things inshallah.
That'll be amazing.
We're eagerly looking forward to inshallah.
May Allah allow your benefit Uh to ripple
and multiply until the day of judgment.
Ameen.
Jazakallah khair.
May Allah Grant you the best of this
world and the best of the next you
and your loved ones and grant us all
a husn al khatima Jazakallah khair everybody.
What topics do we need next?
Throw them in the comments Please your questions
your objections to me not the shaykh.
Jazakallah khair.
Assalamu alaikum