Mohammad Elshinawy – [S2 – Ep 3] A Converts Unique Journey w- Arnold Yasin Mol – Behind the Minbar Podcast
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As-salamu alaykum, bismillah walhamdulillah, wassalatu wassalamu ala
rasulillah, welcome back to Behind the Minbar, blueprints
for a better masjid I don't recall what
number episode this is, but this is Uskudar
2.0. This is our second episode alhamdulillah
Intercepting some of the scholarship here that is
transiting through Uskudar, Istanbul.
Alhamdulillah, we are honored Today to have our
dear brother Yassin, doctor to be, Arnold Moll.
Jazakumullahu khair, Dr. Arnold.
Assalamu alaykum.
Wa alaykumussalam, wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.
So I'm gonna keep this extra quick because
we have like hours to talk about and
only 45 minutes to talk about it without
2x as I often say so So Arnold
Moll is a colleague at Yaqeen Institute.
He has some guest submissions for Yaqeen, but
He is a professor in the philosophy of
religion in Holland, in Leiden University, which is
the oldest university in all of Holland Yeah,
in that way it is.
Yeah Yeah, so there are some claims for
example that there were some other institutions that
are a bit older But technically we are
the oldest official university.
Okay, mashaAllah, and so philosophy of religion People
should know is definitely a niche of his
that he has specialized in.
You can benefit a lot from from his
publications And the human rights project in general
as well Sociology, anthropology, and I'm putting all
of that up front because we're gonna talk
about at least directly none of that right
now It is particularly your training and your
teaching of the subject of conversion theory that
has me extra excited about today's episode this
is Blueprints for a Better Masjid and There
is so much of the convert experience Even
more so than meets the eye when people
initially hear the word convert that I want
to unpack here But before I unpack it
You know a focus on conversion theory and
contemporary religious studies in general how that can
create a better environment in our masjid That'll
be our theme, but I have to step
aside and start with the Sunnah.
The Sunnah is that the Prophet sallallahu alayhi
wa sallam Would at times gather the sahaba
and tell Salman al-Farisi radiyallahu anhu, tell
them your story Tell them how you got
here And there was as we all know
so many legs to his journey until finally
arriving in Yathrib and then Taiba Medina So
tell us your story So yeah that of
course after After so many years more than
two decades Constantly telling your story always feels
a lot of times sort of weird boring
and also and also What especially the experience
of the last two decades is it's more
about why I stayed Muslim Not how I
became Muslim not every convert has like the
sexy story this movie story some just simply
Oh, I married somebody or I just or
it was a very slow process for me.
It was pretty quick So everybody has their
own version So I always remind like the
hadith that people are dragged into Jannah with
chains like everybody has their own Drags dragging
story in that way So for me I
come from a Catholic background in the sense
that they feel compelled to be Muslim Not
that there was a gunpoint But even then
I've started accept this by the way that's
something a lot of converts especially when they
sort of have more this very I Chose
to be Muslim type of story and that
sort of I was a very conscious choice
and sort of they make that sort of
in their sort of the ideals version of
conversion I remember sitting at a wedding one
day and there was another white guy white
man sitting there and I remember it was
time to pray so I stood up and
he he And he had it he had
the fool.
He he so he was married to Suriname
Muslim lady I Dressed you know as a
white guy dressed for ethnic me, you know,
he went full in and I remember it's
time to pray and I stood up and
he caught my hands like oh, you're a
real one Oh my goodness And I was
a bit shocked at that time because I
was a couple of years Muslim and I
was a bit like hands It's the first
time I met somebody like that.
That's sort of yeah, I Became Muslim because
of her and I remember for so long
this sort of sort of it felt hypocrite.
It felt Wrong but after I'm thinking a
lot of times a lot of these people
They're most of them in the end of
life They still there is a mustard of
faith in them in a certain way Because
you cannot act out for all those years.
You cannot play along There is a normalization
of being Muslim in a certain way So
I see change sometimes coming for the wrong
reasons or maybe your primary reason is wrong
But still it's sort of you know, it's
probably even within the Islamic discourse.
And of course, you're familiar with this Al
-Ghazali Rahim Allah famously said and so many
of the setup have said words to this
effect different packagings of the same sentiment that
I Pursued this he meant sacred knowledge.
This is scholastic path He said I pursued
this for other than Allah and then Allah
insisted that it be for nobody with him
So basically I I developed my intention on
route or I sort of discovered that it
was an inappropriate intention I it became appropriate
later on And we even smile I have
like in the Sahaba I mean just to
to mention that in Abu Talha when he
had proposed almost today and she said, you
know A woman like me would love to
have a man like you or how could
a woman like me, you know?
Deny someone of your status, but you are
a mushrik You're a pagan and I we
don't and I'm a Muslim woman and so
he went to the problems of them and
he became Muslim And then it was his
mother Said if you become Muslim, I will
not ask you for any more about that
But the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam said
that here is Abu Talha approaching with sort
of the light of Islam Sort of glimmering
from his face.
So it was almost like a social element
that Caused him to why not look into
Islam I look into it for real exactly
It's not a lot and this is exactly
what what made you convert to begin with
But I'm gonna jump into conversion a second.
The bulk of our episode will be about
it People are always excited to know right
sometimes especially born Muslims.
We take it for granted Sometimes we overcomplicate
it We think this person can never become
Muslim or they need all of this to
become Muslim you saying it was instantaneous in
a sense No, it was a lot of
it was after I never used the term
born Muslims It's raised Muslim and that way
you're raised as a Muslim and I wasn't
raised as a Muslim I was raised as
a Catholic in Holland nor northern European country.
That's mainly its perspectives very Calvinistic Protestants Christianity,
so even your Catholicism has become sort of
very much pot is in a Protestant way
because it's filters a bit through it and
So I grew up with the belief in
this exists of God was normal for me.
So I was brought up with it I
was raised with it, but also it felt
normal for me.
So for example, the existence of God was
never an issue I had friends who converted
to Islam that were atheists.
So so they had to take on the
whole package, you know for me So that's
faith of God being there was always normal
for me.
It was more like where is he?
How do I connect with him?
so when At the time I was I
remember Being even so for example as a
Catholic you go to Catholicism you you sort
of you go to form a true formation
when you're When you're a kid, I remember
like I was like eight year old Standing
next to the priest.
We had a very good priest.
Very nice guy very good with the kids
as well in a good way and I
remember standing in in the front of the
church Looking at the length of it, but
all the imagery around the crucifixion everything in
in paintings and of course the cross itself
With the with the statue hanging on it.
I remember saying to the priest and I
still had a vividly in mind It was
and him being taller than me and I
was a kid and looking in the pictures
like it was a power dynamic Yeah, yeah
But then saying how can Jesus be God
if he talks about God as something else
than him?
so there was sort of a mantic already
a logic going on in there and Growing
up Around in the year when I was
about 18, I started to read more so
I was off to read the other religions
on Buddhism, but the Gita I started to
sort of explore things and I was studying
biochemistry and one of my fellow classmates on
he said hey, we always talked a bit
about God and everything and I see he
suddenly said can I borrow you my Quran
translation?
And I was like, well, it was very
weirdly framed as well Can I know can
I borrow can I borrow you my Quran
translation in England you give it to lend
you yes, and I was like, okay.
Why he says I'm curious how you respond
to it So here and now of course
he always said now he claims always like
no No, I wanted to convert Islam and
maybe in Convert Arnold to Islam, but implicitly
there was maybe there but when I came
back to him saying I want to follow
this He would be like why what you
know, so he was surprised In this is
it really cost something he was also sort
of caught off guard, right?
so he gave me the next day to
the Quran translation, so he was using you
almost like a Would you believe a sparring
partner for his apologetics?
Yeah And you actually sort of you know
were captivated by it.
I wanted to follow it Yeah, so he
gave me this Quran translation, which is not
perfect again You know, that's the thing the
ideal current translation This is I stopped looking
at that The Quran is ready so different
and not so different enough that even a
bad Translation can still show you the difference
of the Quran.
That's crazy You know, obviously statistically this is
the number one reason we all become Muslim
and that used to drive me crazy Because
I used to work for an organization.
They used to have this domain free Quran
calm people and that org was ours and
People constantly follow up that we did order
a Quran.
I put it in a small envelope I
ship it to them like by order and
They'd always come back and say like I
want to convert and I'm always like because
you know, I'm an Arab I don't know
that much Quranic Arabic at the time 25
years ago But I know this translation is
like it's not musical like like, you know,
rhythmic melodic It's definitely not as eloquent I
mean as English speaker, even if I didn't
know the source language like this is clunky
like it's stiff So I can't imagine what
about this but that is the power of
the Quran that even sort of a ballpark
Translation of I mean a message from God
strikes so deeply at the souls.
It is incredible There's a lot of it.
I'm all actually speaks about this, you know
In a sense of being one of the
the subtle miracles of the Quran that many
people overlook and I think now in Translation
you can appreciate more than anything everyone statistically
numbers wise data.
This is the number one reason I've read
the text myself What's in there just makes
sense.
It strikes such a chord and different elements,
of course But the idea of khatiba being
addressed that is one of the unique things
about the Quran is that you feel spoken
to Like for a long time.
I never understood.
I was 20 years old back at that
time and it was a year after 9
-eleven So this September of 2002 at the
time in Holland, there was no direct Not
a direct type of discourse between Islam 9
-eleven Not yet that came after there was
some there was an assassination in Holland couple
years later Then sort of there was already
Islamophobia But then sort of the direct connection
between terrorist acts and that and sort of
connecting Islam to it that came a bit
after So I was in sort of the
in-between phase where Islam was still weird
and wrong and different blah blah blah But
it was less sort of it wasn't it
wasn't a full security issue.
Yeah, right and So I started to read
that Quran translation and for like three months
and for he didn't see anything Translation with
the Arabic in it next to the Translation
he never said anything about he just gave
it to me and the first time I
opened it I opened as a Western book
following the English Dutch So it's like you
open up and the index and I was
like index at the back, you know in
front That's weird, you know, so already the
book is weird, you know, and then okay,
I have to flip it and yet it's
accessible Yes, amazing.
Is that and I skipped there was a
sort of small introduction to it Okay chapter
one al-fatiha because that's how you read
a book No prepared at all.
And then al-fatiha is a bit like,
okay, that's like a prayer.
Okay.
Hey, just go to al-bukhara That's what
it's not a book.
It's not you don't read.
It's not a story It is constantly saying
to you you you you you so you
feel and that's something I never had with
the Bible never had with The book either
or anything else.
It felt like the imminence of God, you
know So the presence of God him walking
and using that language now that symbolic language
is sort of suddenly him walking into the
room I created you so sort of the
very confronting Language is was so it captured
me and that time I was still street
kid Because that's the thing even though you
grew up with Catholicism God is there you
doing good all that element was I was
raised in that but sort of what do
I do in my life?
What's unclear to me from a Catholic upbringing?
so at the same time that element in
the definitive guidance element actual sort of Manual
for life was a big part of it
as well It was so that speaking to
you in the second person or stimulating you
to think about tough questions the devotional or
definitive framework for guidance, you know, I am
Running the risk right now of undermining the
whole theme of the episode.
I can literally I just listen to you
all day on this but To can I
sort of ask you a follow-up First
time I ever met you I asked you
when did you convert and then you said
to me which one I converted seven times
And initially I thought you meant till you
became Muslim, but then you meant seven times
within Islam Yeah, and obviously that's a journey
for another time and I recommend for our
viewers To look them up they do exist
mashallah You're interviewed in many different places across
Europe and elsewhere and you have your publications
in writing But after we've sort of flipped
the page on this chapter Guidance to the
path even the Quran has this there's guidance
then within the path, right?
And so you've become Muslim, but then within
Islam there is sort of phase after phase
Even if we're oversimplifying What did that teach
you was that before after you studied conversion
theory and really got sort of fascinated by
it?
Especially for folks on the theme of this
podcast and who we are serving through this
podcast is sort of God is always doing
his part of course Hamdi Allah But the
thing is the sort of him throwing the
Quran in my face in that way using
again that symbolic language You know, then I
showed up at the mosque I want to
convert and the first response was the pharmacies
next door.
This is more than 20 years ago small
You know working-class Community Moroccan community that
was like what this white guy walking in
is like at the pharmacies next door Like
I want to convert and their first response
was why so they weren't they were not
used to convert yet So there you already
had a community that was very much.
I don't get it Like they assumed you
have a drug issue or no.
No pharmacy like they thought they They're not
used to sort of that.
They are used to the fact that they
thought you were at the wrong address Yes,
and only their community walking in.
Okay, by the way, I had a drug
issue and she had herself that okay, so
But that's the thing you walk in and
they were like, okay.
Sorry, you're at the wrong address, you know
So the idea the idea is that somebody
walks in they're like, oh even imagine that
even if I was at the wrong address
You would drag me in right because Allah's
drag him into chains.
Yeah, you know using the pharmacy But instead
we're like no no get out again and
go next door there's like there's a famous
story of one of the setup the early
great scholars that He was praying his night
prayers and sort of a neighborhood thief sort
of crawled into his window or whatnot to
basically rob the house assuming the house was
empty and so like he basically stopped him
and Prompted him and woke him up to
his senses and and then the people see
the Imam bringing thief that everyone knows is
a thief He's like a vigilante or apparently
into the masjid for Fajr and they're like,
what do you what are you doing?
Like is everything?
Okay, like does he have you sort of
ask that?
What is it?
And he said he came to Yes, it
upon a facade.
He came to steal from us.
So we stole him Yeah, he came to
rob us and we robbed him.
He still found treasure Oh, yeah, so we
robbed him of his former life and gave
him gave him an actual treasure.
Exactly.
So Beautiful because it's so beautiful.
Why forgive me for overstating maybe the obvious
for some is that We're not great yet
at systematizing our dawah and most of our
converts they come to our door Yeah, and
so at the very least be ready for
that exactly, you know We need to be
more forthright more because Allah puts the ball
in your court now because he you know
the Quran sort of imagine also My classmates
was from a Moroccan background.
His father came here in the 19th late
1960-1970 to Holland From from the northern
Morocco villages and then imagine the line of
Qatar so the To end up saying hey,
here's the current translation to end up with
because yes in northern Europe Converts are new
so Islam is only reaching us now in
a way that it not can only convert
Individuals which always happened in the past.
Yeah, you know through interaction to traders Ambassadors
Muslim ambassadors coming to northern Europe talking with
people We know of converts throughout the last
centuries because of that interaction with colonialism.
It's different now exactly now you have Muslims
living diaspora Muslims living there in large communities
in the West and thereby converting a lot
of people through that interaction the same thing
that In the first converts really the the
majority of converts in the 1970s 80s 90s
early 2000s in Holland Belgium Germany etc were
mostly women because they married a Muslim man
and Then they were exposed to Islam So
it's not that the marriage and anything but
sort of there because there were no websites
there was almost no literature So the only
way you could enter you could see Islam
and experience in lemon know about Islam was
a lot of them through relationships So a
lot of women converted now through websites all
the information out there Most people convert out
of that so outside of that social interaction
But the thing is and that's what conversion
theory helps us in understanding those processes Is
that of course the ichthyda and sort of
the theology of it the color element of
it is Of course, you can't plan that
you can you those chess pieces impossible for
us to figure out like is it?
These are chains of God Allah's master plan
We believe in exactly there's a plan that
we need to sort of but then he
wants us to show up because now that
Convert is your amenet, you know, so he's
a mawali.
Are you the welly because Allah's the welly
of everybody?
But are you taking the kid to umar?
Receiving umar of that convert is the welly
now of that convert and a lot of
times that's still not it's happy It's better
now, but compared to 20 years ago But
it is still not perfect and so and
not to blame the community, by the way,
it's a learning process based on the studies
Within the domain of conversion theory and sort
of the psychology of conviction in general How
big of a factor where on the totem
pole does that desire of?
belonging Play how much of a factor because
you know, there's always that there's even that
debate that human beings Are more Consciously or
not prone to emotionally based decisions emotionality then
rationally based decisions rationality and so based on
sort of this world of research How much
is belonging important to actually sort of receive
someone as you said do our our part
where Allah has sort of sent people Our
way and keep people there.
Yes so Sort of if you map it
out, so The believing part is what do
you believe in you believe in our in
our key that you believe in?
Certain creeds you believe in certain types of
history that are real for you They'll simply
vote everybody can believe in the historical existence
of our Prophet.
So Salaam, but for example the miracle element
That's faith.
That's believing.
So Islam presents a worldview a theoretical worldview
persuasive intellectual theoretical exactly about Events in history
about a worldview about how it is.
We added Metaphysics how reality is structured that
is the believing part.
Okay, a lot of converts for example a
Lot of converts enter through the believing part.
So for them sort of the entrance is
a cognitive experience You know, it's a thinking
experience, especially with a lot of men, you
know We we're you know We're stuck in
our own bubble and then sort of we're
dragging in trouble for that line No, like
you didn't say not the thing is is
that of course yes for women as well
But the thing is is that a lot
of data showed that that's the thing the
data shows it So even though it we
don't like those stereotypes a lot of data
shows is that and the belong relatively speaking?
Yeah, the reasons are a little bit Based
character based intelligence based and of course, so
therefore yes you have Spread out over the
two genders certain characters with certain challenges are
more fit that are more faith focus on
a more sort of more Interaction focused, but
it's you still and that's the point so
cognitive versus versus community you're saying Yeah, but
and the socialization socialization, but the thing is
you need both in the end So it
doesn't again.
I always say them doesn't mind if you
enter through the front door through the window
doesn't matter That's not a so again that
idealist part.
I really already had the full worldview.
I entered it No, I still don't on
the parts of it still don't understand that
Arnold and converted this Arnold Just sort of
has it all has the whole rational worldview
mapped out Study Islam theology went through into
it that you believe it's just not honest
to say hey I made this conscious purely
objective decision that Islam is an absolute truth
It's way more complex.
I was I was I was still 20
year old stoner But the thing is it
convinced me and then it was the nice
Muslims That made me feel safe Okay, we're
back on the podcast team.
Yes That's the whole point is that The
belonging itself is the life world that is
where you how you live that worldview and
that you do with others So the worldview
you can have it on paper There are
a lot of religions that exist only as
a worldview on paper because there's no community
anymore living that worldview There's no so that
religion a lot of those religions are what
we call dead religions because there's no life
world And the people don't live it anymore
But our religion hum do the LA is
a worldview that's alive It's lived by people,
but it's a communal religion.
So as a convert then You cannot do
it alone because even the books that tell
you how to pray imagine.
Can you really hundred percent?
Practice the religion purely if you follow the
theories There's there there are deep so many
details of prayer even or doing the what
you know washing it So yeah until the
elbows, but the way you do it sort
of I learned on by reading I learned
by seeing and mimicking So there's already our
religion a large part of it is Impossible
to do from my perspective mainly impossible to
do without that socialization But I know so
that belonging has to do it But what
does them belonging belonging then of course in
what way is it cultural in what way
is it?
Of course language one of the main problems
I had in that beginning was I went
to the mosque only certain people would know
Dart or English the languages I knew and
So that already was one of the main
problems is that to belong is simply not
to be present is to interact to be
Understood to understand the other so I have
two very important questions on this that are
very Practical for those running our centers are
massaged in in Europe and in America the
first of them is that would you agree
then with the theory that For Later generations
of even people raised Muslim right like born
into Muslim families or born to Muslim parents
Since their ethnic identity in Europe or in
the Americas is becoming a Secondary identity right
like I'm not as Egyptian as my parents
or Moroccan as my parents then in that
sense There is a sort of a dovetailing
of the need for belonging like how do
we make sure we don't we don't make
them choose Hey, are you are you American
or Egyptian?
We're not Americans here, or we're not sort
of like a Dutch here, and then you
can actually Convert them out of the religion
if you will if you if it becomes
too heavy of a culture identity Do you
so do you believe that that everyone can
really be seen as a convert of sorts
because we're all a work in progress not
so from like a Strategic perspective yeah, not
theological of course so there are multiple Conversion
theories and a lot of this research has
been done especially in relation to Christianity and
Christians But they're usable for us as well,
but I do hope that more Muslim sociologists
and anthropologists Understanding the inside of the Islamic
worldview also start to engage it more, but
I always like the theory of lose Rambo
Where he talks about there are sort of
seven phases and What he also emphasizes, and
they're not sort of a very linear They
can be very messy, but he says everybody
sort of starts out with their sort of
domain context That's how you begin same thing
for you You come for Egyptian family you
grew up in America And then he says
then you can have sort of a crisis
and crisis not meant the buildings on fire
crisis sort of Trying to reconcile worldview and
life world doesn't align.
I live like this, but I'm told this
yeah and and also that and because especially
because if in Muslim majority countries Islam is
Lived and mapped out in mosques and also
in as minorities living in for example in
Non-muslim countries in the mosque Islam is
sort of mapped out it makes sense So
you can see this very clear comparison between
a mosque in Turkey or Morocco or Egypt
and a mosque for example America or in
Holland But outside of it's completely different here
in Turkey even this is a secular country
Islam is mapped out outside of it.
It's present It's there so you are even
if you maybe you're not Muslim implicitly if
you live in Turkey You're implicitly you eat
halal if you think there's an implicit Muslim
life for us in the West as Muslim
minorities We have to force ourselves to be
Muslim outside of the mosque and so to
be Like very practical in terms of being
efficient as message it at offering landing plat
more forms for our converts like on the
one side And anchor and reborns Henry Moore's
I guess yeah, so that was the two
threads I want to see if I can
do one for this and one for that
Almost as if like a checklist for people
listening on what they can do for those
coming in they need like a landing site
For their educational, but also their social needs
like educational You said you became Muslim and
even the five pillars were not sort of
very oh, I have to pray I have
to fast so that may not be available
in the Jamaal Khutbah that may not be
available on the night All right, it's a
given yeah, it's by osmosis a person picks
it up if they've been raised Muslim or
hanging around for long enough But we don't
want people to sort of wait around and
one treat that as something that's done by
the families like you said Right, you know
so how to be intentional to create that
and At the same time social support because
quranically speaking people rush back to God between
a rock and a hard place Right and
so we should expect that More often than
not not always people will be coming in
to the faith Because Allah blessed them with
a hurdle in their life that will caught
or even a scar or a wound That
will send them looking for healing and inshallah
healing that will not just benefit their their
worldly state But even their akhira like Allah
breaks you to build you better right and
so that means educational and social We need
a landing site front and center ready to
receive on those fronts if you could speak
to that then maybe we can talk about
on the other side for After the landing
site for those that are On the fence
you know many times not everyone there is
there sometimes people are there until They don't
have any more reasons to be there right
or they find unsustainable to be there And
so maybe we start with the converts.
Do you let me tell you the impetus
for this question also one final point forgive
me is that Creating spaces for converts in
Masajid, I understand it and I do it
actually we have convert care in my masjid
To validate their experiences and their unique needs,
but also I fear sort of a Boundary
being created.
It's not like an intake method Like what
does it mean to be like no longer
a convert per se right?
What's the graduation?
I never deconvert it and what I mean
by that is not only that I never
left Islam, but also I mean I'm still
after 20 more than 21 years still Approached
as the convert right so you're always others
so there is sort of A maximum Percentage
of how much I can belong in the
community because in a way I'm always the
other there are moments where I forget.
I'm a convert.
I'm simply Muslim there are moments and that
mainly has to do is when I when
people don't look at me or Approach me
or fit or talk to me as the
convert But simply as your brother and a
lot of time and that's a that's also
sort of as comfort I don't know There's
two ways to look at this shaykh and
forgive me again There's like the badge of
honor way to look at this right like
the sahabah or convert, you know, even you
know, I recall I'm sorry.
I'm gonna digress a bit and I hope
it's useful Bilal Ibn Rabah radiyallahu anhu right
sort of the iconic convert there's in his
biography You read that him and his brother
one time after the death of the Prophet
sallallahu alayhi wa sallam.
Apparently they went to marry two sisters Mm
-hmm, and they were introducing themselves and they
said He said I am Bilal and this
is my brother.
We are two men from Al-Habasha.
We are from Ethiopia or Abyssinia or not
We were lost and Allah guided us Kuna
dhallaini fa ahadana Allah.
Kuna abdaini fa a'taqana Allah.
And we were two slaves and Allah emancipated
us Fa intu zawuju and if you permit
us to marry into your family falhamdulillah, and
if you don't fallahu akbar That's nice.
If you permit we thank God if you
don't permit God is greater like he's almost
this is his CV Yeah that you know,
I you know, I identify even Salman al
-farsi we began with he was called Salman
ibn al-islam This didn't erase of course
his ethnic ancestry, but he was known as
Salman the son of Islam That was his
greatest honorific as opposed to like you said
other rising or sort of second classing within
the community Intentionally or not, like I said,
sometimes we offer these services for our converts
to validate their unique needs But it is
almost seen as a way to or it
translates at times into them never outgrowing this.
Oh, he's a beginner He's still in the
kindergarten.
Exactly.
So I remember talking to a man that
converted more than 60 years ago 60 years
ago and he said I'm still treated as
a convert when I walk into a Mosque
because I'm one of the only white guys
stepping in so there was like, hey, what
are you doing here?
It said that he says you're always treated
as the other So that's there's also an
element to it That of course and I
was think of I've thought a lot about
this like every culture is a comfort culture
Even though a lot of Muslim cultures forget
it.
They add they think as if they've been
Muslim always But the thing in every culture
is comfort.
They had the thresholds a moment and like
so now northern Europe and America inshallah, you
know, like How would they look at those
500 years from now?
You know when sort of the majority now
or a large part has become Muslim like
for example in Yugoslavia part is Christian part
It's Muslim and it's normal for them now
Even though Bosnia they started to convert only
500 years ago or even 300 years ago,
you know, so This is not a threshold
phase Mosques should create landing platforms as a
threshold phase for converts But that is sort
of part of the Yeah The thing is
for a convert itself So I converted when
I was 20.
It's felt like you're six again so sort
of you have to be parents yourself as
a Muslim and You're treated as a child
even by the community and also you're confronted
by that when you for example by a
well-meaning community Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
No, it's not about blaming.
Yeah, it's about seeing it and understanding it
you can't sometimes you have those moments of
resentment and You know, I'll give you an
actual story like I'm gonna whoever doesn't hear
the rest of this clip needs to stop
now because unless you hear the full contact
it comes off wrong I Generally speaking because
of just probabilities and like likelihoods not because
there's no exceptions to this there's many exceptions
to it, but likelihood a Convert from another
religion that was raised from into another religion
I don't necessarily encourage them to marry someone
that was born into a Muslim family and
the reason being is that after 20 years
of serving the community I See that a
convert married to a convert is more sympathetic
to the experiences of the convert, right?
What I mean is that oh I too
have family members that yeah, you know have
this that in the third I too am
struggling with how to reconcile how I want
to raise my kids with but I whether
it's the alcohol or the tattooism or sort
of like the The extreme sort of liberal
iteration in terms of sexual orientation and otherwise
and I've seen converts actually be more compassionate
more Understanding.
Yes, because they they're cut from the same
cloth Yeah and so out of fear that
the convert will be pushed away by From
Islam by the intolerance of a person who
he doesn't realize he's never been tested with
family members of this sort Or a community
of that sort.
I See it like I see that, you
know keeping them Not isolated but sort of
Bolstering each other but at the same time
you have helpful You have you have Muslim
families that are that are diverse so I
also know for example that especially when you
have for example people coming from sort of
more secularized Muslim families and they Sort of
already start to really practice it the reborns
and like yeah, my brother has tattoos is
drinking this and so sometimes also Then it's
especially the converse Although she technically comes from
or he or she comes from a Muslim
family That the convert is the one that
is exactly the person they need because that's
the one that will not Blame her or
him in that exactly and that is why
I think over Dealing with diversity dealing with
diversity.
I think healthy language exactly and To go
back to what we're just talking about the
landing platform itself and the other ring.
There is a type of converts have to
accept the fact that You have a before
and after you know it others feel it
or ask you about it.
And that is sort of a Blessing and
a birding and that's simply simply life and
you have to accept it It took me
long for me to accept it for a
long time.
I tried to run away from it and
But you need planning platforms, but what but
it's a landing platform on the top of
the building, you know, so You're eventually meant
to go into the building not stay on
top of the building So the idea is
of course that people are integrated into the
community at the same time in the need
the landing platform But we should have to
be very careful as to like locking the
door on the roof Because you keep people
out in the storms and in the wind
And it's beautiful and the thing is if
we go back to conversion theory because that's
focus Of course on the social and psychological
elements of conversion because we forget a lot
of times like oh Allah guided you.
Yes, but you but Allah uses a lot
of as bad Because technically he guided me
to a human that gave me something There's
a social element into it and one of
the things that conversion if you look for
example using for example Rambo He says there
are seven elements of conversion So first of
all the starting point your own context as
a as a pre-convert then the crisis
implicit or explicit That's sort of like you
said That rock place forces you to choose
now.
No forces you to open up What we
call the quest to search you implicit unconsciously
or consciously are open towards new ideas and
then you meet something or someone or both
so I met someone who gave me gave
me something the Quran and That that sort
of that first meetup maybe gets you interested
Hey, I like this and then we have
what we call the phase of interaction where
you test out Is this the thing that
solves my crisis?
Do I feel alignment?
Does it solve my feeling of that's the
thing now believing an interest in belief becomes
do I belong?
This is interaction.
Do I belong in this lifestyle?
Is this my life world and then now
the balls in the corner diversity is needed
more sort of valves for belonging Now you
cannot force diversity that simply is there in
a community or not.
But the thing is I'm almost like saying
yeah Trot don't try to fix it.
Let it be it has in a lot.
Yes, exactly And and so the converts you
have to as a community The community has
to learn to belong with converts and the
community and the comfort has to learn to
belong to the community so both have to
learn with it to deal with a new
type of diversity and This is important that
and then lose Rambo says and then the
last phase is the consequential phase He says
and now you have to learn to live
with the consequences of your conversion And a
lot of times if that starts a new
crisis because this becomes your context again That's
a post conversion, but that can if that
starts a new crisis again the cycle starts
again like I said, I had seven six
conversions after my main conversion because I Didn't
belong to the community that part had to
do with being 20 year old being my
type of character Not every community can deal
with every type of care.
My nickname was the one who asked questions
before and after Islam Yeah, so so and
the community could not serve my remember hearing
you say also Maybe there's just another good
example to help people in the massage it
understand how people may need different things at
different moments They need a landing site.
They need a staircase.
They sort of need Sort of this multiple
floors and they'll plug into whatever may work
for them.
It may not be theoretically the ideal even
Theologically the ideal we have the ideal preserved
but to give people room to grow even
yeah I maybe my 20 year old is
not my 40 year old self, but I
think the example I was Trying to invoke
I remember you saying that without a mention
of names that you had chosen a certain
Order ideologically within Islam to practice spirituality Specifically
because it was not membership based.
Yeah, and had you not come from a
Catholic background You would not have been as
drawn maybe to an exclusivist sort of member
and potentially tribal based System, right?
And so that fits you perfectly and you
wanted to drift away from this and had
that been too identical within Islam maybe it
wouldn't have appealed to you more than that
I was brought I was raised and a
lot of Muslims now master race like that
true public education true media influence everything else
I had a modern and postmodern mindset a
lot of my feelings and my ideas of
love and Morality and interconnection tolerance were postmodern.
Yeah.
So for me, you know gay marriage who
cares, you know that type of mindset and
with Modernity miracles cannot happen because I had
this enlightenment approach towards nature and like realistic
Yeah, so so yeah, so after my conversion
it took me 10 years to shake off
that sort of those elements that orientations in
my world view so I Had very much
although I was raised Catholic I wasn't miracles,
for example so sort of so reading the
Quran on the miracles a bit like I
tried to find ways of Interpreting in a
way that I still felt that my that
that sort of it fitted my my Tendencies
same thing with a lot of ideas of
tolerance is like had to do with that
So it took me about 10 years and
sort of going constantly through that cycle again
And that's not always blaming the community that
simply had to do with Arnold and his
tendency in his character and growing up so
it had to do with sort of the
this is what we call the Developmental psychology
is that it's I see seen converts in
two years.
They get it They normalize into it and
done and I always felt jealous about those
like why do I have that easy belonging?
Well, I sort of constantly resisting it But
in the end it made me some it
made me do philosophy religion maybe do this
it forced me into the university to find
my way and understand it and Then also
meet people that created belonging for me and
one of the things that I love sort
of Allah bless me with Next to the
Quran has always been not only General Muslims
and communities that make created belonging for me
that some of them are still my best
friends simply as common believers, but especially Muslim
scholars that sort of When this sort of
arrogant resisting asking questions White guy showed up
and they were like sit down hold my
hand and I'll be that they never be
system They gave me this feeling of belonging
even though I Still to do a lot
of work.
So for like I said, you have to
reparent yourself when I converted when I was
20 I became six again So that it
took me ten years to be an adult
in the sense as a Muslim is logical
and that's the thing as well that and
a lot and because of your in the
sort of this word cycle and There's a
part of conversion Imagine I stopped doing drugs
this and this so the first two years
are sort of rehab as well And the
community has to deal with that as well
You have to deal with a guy with
a guy or a woman that sometimes they
have very hard backgrounds that Sort of so
you are the rehab center Do we have
center of lifestyles?
We have centers of thinking we have centers
of Eat with your right hand ethics, you
know etiquette or at the very least I
mean time is winding down now.
I think I'm a good message for us
to linger on as communities I don't want
to speak high horse to sort of whoever
may be listening and benefiting and is humble
enough to indulge me for all these podcasts,
but at least the patience and the compassion
the empathy until other institutions can help or
other Social circles can help them right Maybe
fellow Muslims not necessarily a message program is
going to be a rehab center right and
a reintegration program And I overstated a bit
of course, of course, I know what you
mean in the wider sense Anyway, I was
trying to widen for our listeners that the
term convert by the way, your kids are
convert type thing I want to say that
also rehab.
I know you meant it in the widest
possible conceptualization growing up, you know, I remember
people were hyper vigilant about Tattoos in America
at least in American Muslim community.
I always clocked it like that.
It was kind of normal for me I
went to public school my whole life but
still in the message people would freak out
when someone was with a tattoo and then
one time I just stopped and said You
know, the problem sauce Allah has a lot
of a hadith forbidding tattoos That probably means
there was a whole lot of Sahaba who
had tattoos.
It was like a cultural norm Yeah, and
so that means some of them Filled the
message with tattoos because he wanted to stop
a living practice living practice and so for
me It was like I may have even
heard one brother say this to another brother
and he had every right to say You
know brother tattoos are haram and he said
something along the lines of well This one
is gonna cost me six sessions and five
thousand dollars to laser remove it Yeah, I
didn't get a nice big sizable budget of
money when I took my Shahada to ruin
my tattoos I know that those are haram.
You're the 1517 person that has told me
this.
Yeah, and I think that is powerful as
well that this notion that you know you
said and I'm gonna be like mess this
up, but The Tattoos on our lenses like
the stain on our worldview at times also
take some Take some years.
Yes, and you can't just snap your fingers
and so to create a Sort of a
society of understanding I remember and I shared
this in a previous episode I entered a
masjid that is celebrated in Brooklyn, New York
as being a very youth centric masjid.
Hmm, and I entered for Taraweeh I was
invited to the masjid and I got to
the masjid.
I used to actually serve there years prior
as their anyway in their management And as
I answered the whole masjid felt like it
was people in earrings and tattoos right and
I was thinking oh my god that uncle
from my past or uncles It's a class
of people per se that have or haven't
been exposed to this or there's a shock
element for them I remember smiling very hard
like they're in the message, it's not they're
happy to be here exactly and You know
like they're probably better than us and they're
clean-slate and they're a work in progress
and so are we and I think that
that spirit along with so much of the
The theory, alhamdulillah we've been discussing a lot
of theory and people and some practical advice
I hope the masjid make the best of
it just to bring it all full circle
that spirit of Do we welcome I don't
want even say our guests but the newcomers
right give them, you know a reason to
want to land here Yeah, right and and
the thing and like I said how we
began the real question is Arnold.
How did you stay Muslim?
Yeah, and the thing is this has to
do with some of the conversion Research shows
that of the hundred persons that convert after
ten years about half only remain And there
are many reasons the highest number I've heard
on this subject believe it or not.
Yeah, the sum of that's great I hope
it's true, but please continue There are some
numbers that say 60 40 and by the
way some are and we still need better
research on this But let's at least it
shows There's also people that phase out that
clock out and if they look at why
it mainly has to do it I don't
feel belonging anymore It is so hard to
hold on to worldview that you get that
when you want to live it People make
it almost impossible for you to feel normal
in that life And like I said the
the balls in the court of the community
To keep that going and a lot of
even raised as Muslim that stop practicing Has
that has to do with them as well.
They're chased out of the mosque in that
way I don't see myself as that person.
I don't feel like I fit the mold
I don't belong to that sort of identity
that was chosen by the Community you're saying
yeah Or at least sort of I I'm
not allowed to be mean a certain way
or they don't expect don't they don't Sort
of allow me to find my way.
I'm a messy person They're all messy person,
but they act as if they're not, you
know that that type of thing So and
then we get like I said Posse's also
conversion It follows the same rules, you know
context crisis quests so Also, why a lot
of muslims have to seek other things, you
know A lot of them become post-modern
they are pro certain ideas because they're also
formed by the context are in what do
you do?
Instead of blaming them for having certain ideas
that are maybe post-modern that go against
Islamic ideas instead of blaming them for them
is like the root cause Yes And understand
and instead of saying oh, you know If
you do that, you're wrong isn't it?
Like how did you get there?
How it became you were socialized into it
why because the majority of them are in
a non-muslim country You can't blame them
for so for socializing in the majority context
because Islam is not a given Outside of
the mosque.
So this is a subject for another episode
but to conclude You're saying that in this
seven phase cycle that the Rambo puts out
which I haven't read.
Of course Sorry Rambo in the American yeah,
I know I know I always that's always
the fun when I teach it like Rambo
is a real name So in those seven
phases, it would also be true that these
people who convert meaning to apostasy by the
time we notice it it means We drop
the ball much early Yes, because you're ready
at 0.5 same thing that for our
parents come in five is when it services.
Yeah, exactly Because that's the thing so you
have so meet up interactions and then you
have sort of living it You're doing it's
got the face of commitment.
So this was where for example with when
women start to wear the hijab You know
when it's a later stage Yeah, so a
lot of time our parents come to me
like, oh she suddenly wears hijab.
Oh, no No, you're you're that's phase five.
That's phase six You know sort of and
when I explain those phases like oh and
we did it also for non-muslim parents
of converts Like oh, we did not allow
the space for her to be open about
what was happening with her And that's why
we said felt a sense of betrayal when
you became Muslim.
Yes It's like and then and I confronted
with that like we're do you mean what
is the thing for that?
Okay, you you you're scared a lot of
times.
You're simply scared of losing their kids and
Islam doesn't make you lose your kid You
know, so it's super important advice When the
community to tell them make sure your parents
find you to be better than you ever
were Retained the belonging with your parents and
the parents feel you still belong to them
That's beautiful and that'll help your Islam and
even help the your parents as well Yeah,
and trust me.
It's very hard to talk with your parents
about your faith because there's this Maintain the
religion is very difficult in those type of
relationships But still at least make sure that
you show you're still you are a better
person.
It's exam.
I feel like we've only sort of Caught
the tip of the iceberg on this one
and You've really sort of piqued my curiosity
many respects I'm gonna make sure inshallah to
To connect people some of these resources you
mentioned I'm gonna bother you for them and
put them in description of the video for
everyone else I hope this was of benefit
for you to sort of peer into the
mind of Not just the convert but the
sort of the archetype of what conversion looks
like and that there's so much more of
it than then We think May Allah accept
from us and we want your feedback I
know I've said a few things that were
a bit controversial and Allah knows my intention
and also we're open to correction but also
experience Confronts us with the non-ideal.
So when you say it's controversial Jack, but
this I saw this in reality That's the
thing as well is that we don't like
always what we see, but how do we
deal with it?
Correct?
Yeah in a perfect world.
I would not advise these things.
They don't just sound politically incorrect They sound
a little bit painful as well but I'm
trying to offset some very real pains that
I felt pains that he even have pushed
people away from Islam and That is this
is a cliff's edge this is sort of
like Islam and Kufr This is the most
important subject in the universe or should be
and so throw your comments in Of course,
I'm expecting everyone to be polite But be
also candid and also any other subjects that
we need to unpack Comfortable or uncomfortable is
like a little hair on and may Allah
not deprive us of your good work Keep
up the great work doctor And I even
feel like arrogant saying that But we look
forward to benefiting from you on many different
fronts as we have already.
It's like a little hair on Salam alaikum
everybody You