Mohammad Elshinawy – [S2 – Ep 3] A Converts Unique Journey w- Arnold Yasin Mol – Behind the Minbar Podcast

Mohammad Elshinawy
AI: Summary ©
The conversation covers the topic of conversion to Islam, including the importance of practicing it purely if it follows its core values and factors affecting conversions, including social interaction, emotional decision-making, and theology. The importance of creating landing sites for educational and social support for minority people is emphasized, along with the need for personal growth and diversity in their life. The speakers emphasize the importance of conversion to achieve goals and personal context, including finding the best way to deal with controversial topics and show one's faith in Islam.
AI: Transcript ©
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As-salamu alaykum, bismillah walhamdulillah, wassalatu wassalamu ala

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rasulillah, welcome back to Behind the Minbar, blueprints

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for a better masjid I don't recall what

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number episode this is, but this is Uskudar

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2.0. This is our second episode alhamdulillah

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Intercepting some of the scholarship here that is

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transiting through Uskudar, Istanbul.

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Alhamdulillah, we are honored Today to have our

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dear brother Yassin, doctor to be, Arnold Moll.

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Jazakumullahu khair, Dr. Arnold.

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Assalamu alaykum.

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Wa alaykumussalam, wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.

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So I'm gonna keep this extra quick because

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we have like hours to talk about and

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only 45 minutes to talk about it without

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2x as I often say so So Arnold

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Moll is a colleague at Yaqeen Institute.

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He has some guest submissions for Yaqeen, but

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He is a professor in the philosophy of

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religion in Holland, in Leiden University, which is

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the oldest university in all of Holland Yeah,

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in that way it is.

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Yeah Yeah, so there are some claims for

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example that there were some other institutions that

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are a bit older But technically we are

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the oldest official university.

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Okay, mashaAllah, and so philosophy of religion People

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should know is definitely a niche of his

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that he has specialized in.

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You can benefit a lot from from his

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publications And the human rights project in general

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as well Sociology, anthropology, and I'm putting all

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of that up front because we're gonna talk

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about at least directly none of that right

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now It is particularly your training and your

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teaching of the subject of conversion theory that

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has me extra excited about today's episode this

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is Blueprints for a Better Masjid and There

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is so much of the convert experience Even

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more so than meets the eye when people

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initially hear the word convert that I want

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to unpack here But before I unpack it

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You know a focus on conversion theory and

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contemporary religious studies in general how that can

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create a better environment in our masjid That'll

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be our theme, but I have to step

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aside and start with the Sunnah.

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The Sunnah is that the Prophet sallallahu alayhi

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wa sallam Would at times gather the sahaba

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and tell Salman al-Farisi radiyallahu anhu, tell

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them your story Tell them how you got

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here And there was as we all know

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so many legs to his journey until finally

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arriving in Yathrib and then Taiba Medina So

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tell us your story So yeah that of

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course after After so many years more than

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two decades Constantly telling your story always feels

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a lot of times sort of weird boring

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and also and also What especially the experience

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of the last two decades is it's more

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about why I stayed Muslim Not how I

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became Muslim not every convert has like the

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sexy story this movie story some just simply

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Oh, I married somebody or I just or

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it was a very slow process for me.

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It was pretty quick So everybody has their

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own version So I always remind like the

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hadith that people are dragged into Jannah with

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chains like everybody has their own Drags dragging

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story in that way So for me I

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come from a Catholic background in the sense

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that they feel compelled to be Muslim Not

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that there was a gunpoint But even then

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I've started accept this by the way that's

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something a lot of converts especially when they

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sort of have more this very I Chose

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to be Muslim type of story and that

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sort of I was a very conscious choice

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and sort of they make that sort of

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in their sort of the ideals version of

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conversion I remember sitting at a wedding one

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day and there was another white guy white

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man sitting there and I remember it was

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time to pray so I stood up and

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he he And he had it he had

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the fool.

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He he so he was married to Suriname

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Muslim lady I Dressed you know as a

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white guy dressed for ethnic me, you know,

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he went full in and I remember it's

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time to pray and I stood up and

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he caught my hands like oh, you're a

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real one Oh my goodness And I was

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a bit shocked at that time because I

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was a couple of years Muslim and I

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was a bit like hands It's the first

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time I met somebody like that.

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That's sort of yeah, I Became Muslim because

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of her and I remember for so long

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this sort of sort of it felt hypocrite.

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It felt Wrong but after I'm thinking a

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lot of times a lot of these people

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They're most of them in the end of

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life They still there is a mustard of

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faith in them in a certain way Because

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you cannot act out for all those years.

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You cannot play along There is a normalization

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of being Muslim in a certain way So

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I see change sometimes coming for the wrong

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reasons or maybe your primary reason is wrong

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But still it's sort of you know, it's

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probably even within the Islamic discourse.

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And of course, you're familiar with this Al

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-Ghazali Rahim Allah famously said and so many

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of the setup have said words to this

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effect different packagings of the same sentiment that

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I Pursued this he meant sacred knowledge.

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This is scholastic path He said I pursued

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this for other than Allah and then Allah

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insisted that it be for nobody with him

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So basically I I developed my intention on

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route or I sort of discovered that it

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was an inappropriate intention I it became appropriate

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later on And we even smile I have

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like in the Sahaba I mean just to

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to mention that in Abu Talha when he

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had proposed almost today and she said, you

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know A woman like me would love to

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have a man like you or how could

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a woman like me, you know?

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Deny someone of your status, but you are

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a mushrik You're a pagan and I we

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don't and I'm a Muslim woman and so

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he went to the problems of them and

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he became Muslim And then it was his

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mother Said if you become Muslim, I will

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not ask you for any more about that

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But the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam said

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that here is Abu Talha approaching with sort

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of the light of Islam Sort of glimmering

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from his face.

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So it was almost like a social element

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that Caused him to why not look into

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Islam I look into it for real exactly

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It's not a lot and this is exactly

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what what made you convert to begin with

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But I'm gonna jump into conversion a second.

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The bulk of our episode will be about

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it People are always excited to know right

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sometimes especially born Muslims.

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We take it for granted Sometimes we overcomplicate

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it We think this person can never become

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Muslim or they need all of this to

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become Muslim you saying it was instantaneous in

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a sense No, it was a lot of

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it was after I never used the term

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born Muslims It's raised Muslim and that way

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you're raised as a Muslim and I wasn't

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raised as a Muslim I was raised as

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a Catholic in Holland nor northern European country.

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That's mainly its perspectives very Calvinistic Protestants Christianity,

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so even your Catholicism has become sort of

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very much pot is in a Protestant way

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because it's filters a bit through it and

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So I grew up with the belief in

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this exists of God was normal for me.

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So I was brought up with it I

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was raised with it, but also it felt

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normal for me.

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So for example, the existence of God was

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never an issue I had friends who converted

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to Islam that were atheists.

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So so they had to take on the

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whole package, you know for me So that's

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faith of God being there was always normal

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for me.

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It was more like where is he?

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How do I connect with him?

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so when At the time I was I

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remember Being even so for example as a

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Catholic you go to Catholicism you you sort

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of you go to form a true formation

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when you're When you're a kid, I remember

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like I was like eight year old Standing

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next to the priest.

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We had a very good priest.

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Very nice guy very good with the kids

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as well in a good way and I

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remember standing in in the front of the

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church Looking at the length of it, but

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all the imagery around the crucifixion everything in

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in paintings and of course the cross itself

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With the with the statue hanging on it.

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I remember saying to the priest and I

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still had a vividly in mind It was

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and him being taller than me and I

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was a kid and looking in the pictures

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like it was a power dynamic Yeah, yeah

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But then saying how can Jesus be God

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if he talks about God as something else

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than him?

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so there was sort of a mantic already

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a logic going on in there and Growing

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up Around in the year when I was

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about 18, I started to read more so

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I was off to read the other religions

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on Buddhism, but the Gita I started to

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sort of explore things and I was studying

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biochemistry and one of my fellow classmates on

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he said hey, we always talked a bit

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about God and everything and I see he

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suddenly said can I borrow you my Quran

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translation?

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And I was like, well, it was very

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weirdly framed as well Can I know can

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I borrow can I borrow you my Quran

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translation in England you give it to lend

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you yes, and I was like, okay.

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Why he says I'm curious how you respond

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to it So here and now of course

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he always said now he claims always like

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no No, I wanted to convert Islam and

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maybe in Convert Arnold to Islam, but implicitly

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there was maybe there but when I came

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back to him saying I want to follow

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this He would be like why what you

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know, so he was surprised In this is

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it really cost something he was also sort

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of caught off guard, right?

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so he gave me the next day to

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the Quran translation, so he was using you

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almost like a Would you believe a sparring

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partner for his apologetics?

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Yeah And you actually sort of you know

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were captivated by it.

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I wanted to follow it Yeah, so he

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gave me this Quran translation, which is not

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perfect again You know, that's the thing the

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ideal current translation This is I stopped looking

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at that The Quran is ready so different

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and not so different enough that even a

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bad Translation can still show you the difference

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of the Quran.

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That's crazy You know, obviously statistically this is

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the number one reason we all become Muslim

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and that used to drive me crazy Because

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I used to work for an organization.

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They used to have this domain free Quran

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calm people and that org was ours and

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People constantly follow up that we did order

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a Quran.

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I put it in a small envelope I

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ship it to them like by order and

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They'd always come back and say like I

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want to convert and I'm always like because

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you know, I'm an Arab I don't know

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that much Quranic Arabic at the time 25

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years ago But I know this translation is

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like it's not musical like like, you know,

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rhythmic melodic It's definitely not as eloquent I

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mean as English speaker, even if I didn't

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know the source language like this is clunky

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like it's stiff So I can't imagine what

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about this but that is the power of

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the Quran that even sort of a ballpark

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Translation of I mean a message from God

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strikes so deeply at the souls.

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It is incredible There's a lot of it.

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I'm all actually speaks about this, you know

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In a sense of being one of the

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the subtle miracles of the Quran that many

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people overlook and I think now in Translation

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you can appreciate more than anything everyone statistically

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numbers wise data.

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This is the number one reason I've read

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the text myself What's in there just makes

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sense.

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It strikes such a chord and different elements,

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of course But the idea of khatiba being

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addressed that is one of the unique things

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about the Quran is that you feel spoken

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to Like for a long time.

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I never understood.

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I was 20 years old back at that

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time and it was a year after 9

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-eleven So this September of 2002 at the

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time in Holland, there was no direct Not

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a direct type of discourse between Islam 9

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-eleven Not yet that came after there was

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some there was an assassination in Holland couple

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years later Then sort of there was already

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Islamophobia But then sort of the direct connection

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between terrorist acts and that and sort of

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connecting Islam to it that came a bit

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after So I was in sort of the

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in-between phase where Islam was still weird

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and wrong and different blah blah blah But

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it was less sort of it wasn't it

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wasn't a full security issue.

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Yeah, right and So I started to read

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that Quran translation and for like three months

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and for he didn't see anything Translation with

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the Arabic in it next to the Translation

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he never said anything about he just gave

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it to me and the first time I

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opened it I opened as a Western book

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following the English Dutch So it's like you

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open up and the index and I was

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like index at the back, you know in

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front That's weird, you know, so already the

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book is weird, you know, and then okay,

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I have to flip it and yet it's

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accessible Yes, amazing.

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Is that and I skipped there was a

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sort of small introduction to it Okay chapter

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one al-fatiha because that's how you read

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a book No prepared at all.

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And then al-fatiha is a bit like,

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okay, that's like a prayer.

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Okay.

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Hey, just go to al-bukhara That's what

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it's not a book.

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It's not you don't read.

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It's not a story It is constantly saying

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to you you you you you so you

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feel and that's something I never had with

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the Bible never had with The book either

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or anything else.

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It felt like the imminence of God, you

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know So the presence of God him walking

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and using that language now that symbolic language

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is sort of suddenly him walking into the

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room I created you so sort of the

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very confronting Language is was so it captured

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me and that time I was still street

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kid Because that's the thing even though you

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grew up with Catholicism God is there you

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doing good all that element was I was

00:13:16 --> 00:13:18

raised in that but sort of what do

00:13:18 --> 00:13:20

I do in my life?

00:13:20 --> 00:13:22

What's unclear to me from a Catholic upbringing?

00:13:22 --> 00:13:24

so at the same time that element in

00:13:24 --> 00:13:27

the definitive guidance element actual sort of Manual

00:13:27 --> 00:13:29

for life was a big part of it

00:13:29 --> 00:13:31

as well It was so that speaking to

00:13:31 --> 00:13:33

you in the second person or stimulating you

00:13:33 --> 00:13:36

to think about tough questions the devotional or

00:13:36 --> 00:13:40

definitive framework for guidance, you know, I am

00:13:41 --> 00:13:43

Running the risk right now of undermining the

00:13:43 --> 00:13:44

whole theme of the episode.

00:13:44 --> 00:13:46

I can literally I just listen to you

00:13:46 --> 00:13:49

all day on this but To can I

00:13:49 --> 00:13:52

sort of ask you a follow-up First

00:13:52 --> 00:13:54

time I ever met you I asked you

00:13:54 --> 00:13:56

when did you convert and then you said

00:13:56 --> 00:13:59

to me which one I converted seven times

00:14:00 --> 00:14:02

And initially I thought you meant till you

00:14:02 --> 00:14:04

became Muslim, but then you meant seven times

00:14:04 --> 00:14:07

within Islam Yeah, and obviously that's a journey

00:14:07 --> 00:14:09

for another time and I recommend for our

00:14:09 --> 00:14:12

viewers To look them up they do exist

00:14:12 --> 00:14:14

mashallah You're interviewed in many different places across

00:14:14 --> 00:14:16

Europe and elsewhere and you have your publications

00:14:16 --> 00:14:20

in writing But after we've sort of flipped

00:14:20 --> 00:14:23

the page on this chapter Guidance to the

00:14:23 --> 00:14:25

path even the Quran has this there's guidance

00:14:25 --> 00:14:26

then within the path, right?

00:14:26 --> 00:14:28

And so you've become Muslim, but then within

00:14:28 --> 00:14:31

Islam there is sort of phase after phase

00:14:31 --> 00:14:34

Even if we're oversimplifying What did that teach

00:14:34 --> 00:14:36

you was that before after you studied conversion

00:14:36 --> 00:14:38

theory and really got sort of fascinated by

00:14:38 --> 00:14:39

it?

00:14:39 --> 00:14:41

Especially for folks on the theme of this

00:14:41 --> 00:14:43

podcast and who we are serving through this

00:14:43 --> 00:14:48

podcast is sort of God is always doing

00:14:48 --> 00:14:50

his part of course Hamdi Allah But the

00:14:50 --> 00:14:52

thing is the sort of him throwing the

00:14:52 --> 00:14:54

Quran in my face in that way using

00:14:54 --> 00:14:57

again that symbolic language You know, then I

00:14:57 --> 00:14:59

showed up at the mosque I want to

00:14:59 --> 00:15:01

convert and the first response was the pharmacies

00:15:01 --> 00:15:02

next door.

00:15:02 --> 00:15:04

This is more than 20 years ago small

00:15:04 --> 00:15:08

You know working-class Community Moroccan community that

00:15:08 --> 00:15:10

was like what this white guy walking in

00:15:10 --> 00:15:11

is like at the pharmacies next door Like

00:15:11 --> 00:15:13

I want to convert and their first response

00:15:13 --> 00:15:15

was why so they weren't they were not

00:15:15 --> 00:15:17

used to convert yet So there you already

00:15:17 --> 00:15:19

had a community that was very much.

00:15:19 --> 00:15:20

I don't get it Like they assumed you

00:15:20 --> 00:15:21

have a drug issue or no.

00:15:22 --> 00:15:24

No pharmacy like they thought they They're not

00:15:24 --> 00:15:26

used to sort of that.

00:15:27 --> 00:15:28

They are used to the fact that they

00:15:28 --> 00:15:29

thought you were at the wrong address Yes,

00:15:30 --> 00:15:34

and only their community walking in.

00:15:34 --> 00:15:35

Okay, by the way, I had a drug

00:15:35 --> 00:15:39

issue and she had herself that okay, so

00:15:40 --> 00:15:42

But that's the thing you walk in and

00:15:42 --> 00:15:43

they were like, okay.

00:15:43 --> 00:15:45

Sorry, you're at the wrong address, you know

00:15:45 --> 00:15:47

So the idea the idea is that somebody

00:15:47 --> 00:15:49

walks in they're like, oh even imagine that

00:15:49 --> 00:15:51

even if I was at the wrong address

00:15:51 --> 00:15:53

You would drag me in right because Allah's

00:15:53 --> 00:15:54

drag him into chains.

00:15:55 --> 00:15:57

Yeah, you know using the pharmacy But instead

00:15:57 --> 00:15:59

we're like no no get out again and

00:15:59 --> 00:16:01

go next door there's like there's a famous

00:16:01 --> 00:16:03

story of one of the setup the early

00:16:03 --> 00:16:06

great scholars that He was praying his night

00:16:06 --> 00:16:08

prayers and sort of a neighborhood thief sort

00:16:08 --> 00:16:12

of crawled into his window or whatnot to

00:16:12 --> 00:16:13

basically rob the house assuming the house was

00:16:13 --> 00:16:16

empty and so like he basically stopped him

00:16:16 --> 00:16:18

and Prompted him and woke him up to

00:16:18 --> 00:16:20

his senses and and then the people see

00:16:20 --> 00:16:22

the Imam bringing thief that everyone knows is

00:16:22 --> 00:16:25

a thief He's like a vigilante or apparently

00:16:25 --> 00:16:28

into the masjid for Fajr and they're like,

00:16:28 --> 00:16:29

what do you what are you doing?

00:16:29 --> 00:16:30

Like is everything?

00:16:30 --> 00:16:31

Okay, like does he have you sort of

00:16:31 --> 00:16:31

ask that?

00:16:32 --> 00:16:32

What is it?

00:16:32 --> 00:16:35

And he said he came to Yes, it

00:16:35 --> 00:16:35

upon a facade.

00:16:36 --> 00:16:37

He came to steal from us.

00:16:37 --> 00:16:39

So we stole him Yeah, he came to

00:16:39 --> 00:16:40

rob us and we robbed him.

00:16:40 --> 00:16:42

He still found treasure Oh, yeah, so we

00:16:42 --> 00:16:43

robbed him of his former life and gave

00:16:43 --> 00:16:45

him gave him an actual treasure.

00:16:45 --> 00:16:45

Exactly.

00:16:45 --> 00:16:49

So Beautiful because it's so beautiful.

00:16:49 --> 00:16:51

Why forgive me for overstating maybe the obvious

00:16:51 --> 00:16:54

for some is that We're not great yet

00:16:54 --> 00:16:56

at systematizing our dawah and most of our

00:16:56 --> 00:16:59

converts they come to our door Yeah, and

00:16:59 --> 00:17:01

so at the very least be ready for

00:17:01 --> 00:17:03

that exactly, you know We need to be

00:17:03 --> 00:17:06

more forthright more because Allah puts the ball

00:17:06 --> 00:17:09

in your court now because he you know

00:17:09 --> 00:17:14

the Quran sort of imagine also My classmates

00:17:14 --> 00:17:16

was from a Moroccan background.

00:17:16 --> 00:17:18

His father came here in the 19th late

00:17:18 --> 00:17:22

1960-1970 to Holland From from the northern

00:17:22 --> 00:17:28

Morocco villages and then imagine the line of

00:17:28 --> 00:17:34

Qatar so the To end up saying hey,

00:17:34 --> 00:17:37

here's the current translation to end up with

00:17:37 --> 00:17:41

because yes in northern Europe Converts are new

00:17:41 --> 00:17:43

so Islam is only reaching us now in

00:17:43 --> 00:17:46

a way that it not can only convert

00:17:46 --> 00:17:48

Individuals which always happened in the past.

00:17:48 --> 00:17:52

Yeah, you know through interaction to traders Ambassadors

00:17:52 --> 00:17:55

Muslim ambassadors coming to northern Europe talking with

00:17:55 --> 00:17:57

people We know of converts throughout the last

00:17:57 --> 00:18:00

centuries because of that interaction with colonialism.

00:18:00 --> 00:18:04

It's different now exactly now you have Muslims

00:18:04 --> 00:18:07

living diaspora Muslims living there in large communities

00:18:07 --> 00:18:11

in the West and thereby converting a lot

00:18:11 --> 00:18:13

of people through that interaction the same thing

00:18:13 --> 00:18:16

that In the first converts really the the

00:18:16 --> 00:18:20

majority of converts in the 1970s 80s 90s

00:18:20 --> 00:18:25

early 2000s in Holland Belgium Germany etc were

00:18:25 --> 00:18:29

mostly women because they married a Muslim man

00:18:29 --> 00:18:32

and Then they were exposed to Islam So

00:18:32 --> 00:18:34

it's not that the marriage and anything but

00:18:34 --> 00:18:36

sort of there because there were no websites

00:18:36 --> 00:18:37

there was almost no literature So the only

00:18:37 --> 00:18:39

way you could enter you could see Islam

00:18:39 --> 00:18:41

and experience in lemon know about Islam was

00:18:41 --> 00:18:44

a lot of them through relationships So a

00:18:44 --> 00:18:47

lot of women converted now through websites all

00:18:47 --> 00:18:50

the information out there Most people convert out

00:18:50 --> 00:18:52

of that so outside of that social interaction

00:18:52 --> 00:18:54

But the thing is and that's what conversion

00:18:54 --> 00:18:58

theory helps us in understanding those processes Is

00:18:58 --> 00:18:59

that of course the ichthyda and sort of

00:18:59 --> 00:19:01

the theology of it the color element of

00:19:01 --> 00:19:03

it is Of course, you can't plan that

00:19:03 --> 00:19:07

you can you those chess pieces impossible for

00:19:07 --> 00:19:09

us to figure out like is it?

00:19:09 --> 00:19:12

These are chains of God Allah's master plan

00:19:12 --> 00:19:13

We believe in exactly there's a plan that

00:19:13 --> 00:19:15

we need to sort of but then he

00:19:15 --> 00:19:17

wants us to show up because now that

00:19:17 --> 00:19:20

Convert is your amenet, you know, so he's

00:19:20 --> 00:19:21

a mawali.

00:19:21 --> 00:19:23

Are you the welly because Allah's the welly

00:19:23 --> 00:19:24

of everybody?

00:19:24 --> 00:19:26

But are you taking the kid to umar?

00:19:27 --> 00:19:29

Receiving umar of that convert is the welly

00:19:29 --> 00:19:31

now of that convert and a lot of

00:19:31 --> 00:19:33

times that's still not it's happy It's better

00:19:33 --> 00:19:38

now, but compared to 20 years ago But

00:19:38 --> 00:19:41

it is still not perfect and so and

00:19:41 --> 00:19:43

not to blame the community, by the way,

00:19:43 --> 00:19:46

it's a learning process based on the studies

00:19:48 --> 00:19:50

Within the domain of conversion theory and sort

00:19:50 --> 00:19:54

of the psychology of conviction in general How

00:19:54 --> 00:19:55

big of a factor where on the totem

00:19:55 --> 00:19:58

pole does that desire of?

00:19:59 --> 00:20:02

belonging Play how much of a factor because

00:20:02 --> 00:20:03

you know, there's always that there's even that

00:20:03 --> 00:20:08

debate that human beings Are more Consciously or

00:20:08 --> 00:20:11

not prone to emotionally based decisions emotionality then

00:20:11 --> 00:20:15

rationally based decisions rationality and so based on

00:20:15 --> 00:20:19

sort of this world of research How much

00:20:19 --> 00:20:23

is belonging important to actually sort of receive

00:20:23 --> 00:20:25

someone as you said do our our part

00:20:25 --> 00:20:26

where Allah has sort of sent people Our

00:20:26 --> 00:20:28

way and keep people there.

00:20:28 --> 00:20:34

Yes so Sort of if you map it

00:20:34 --> 00:20:37

out, so The believing part is what do

00:20:37 --> 00:20:39

you believe in you believe in our in

00:20:39 --> 00:20:40

our key that you believe in?

00:20:41 --> 00:20:45

Certain creeds you believe in certain types of

00:20:45 --> 00:20:47

history that are real for you They'll simply

00:20:47 --> 00:20:50

vote everybody can believe in the historical existence

00:20:50 --> 00:20:51

of our Prophet.

00:20:51 --> 00:20:53

So Salaam, but for example the miracle element

00:20:53 --> 00:20:55

That's faith.

00:20:55 --> 00:20:56

That's believing.

00:20:56 --> 00:21:00

So Islam presents a worldview a theoretical worldview

00:21:00 --> 00:21:04

persuasive intellectual theoretical exactly about Events in history

00:21:04 --> 00:21:06

about a worldview about how it is.

00:21:07 --> 00:21:10

We added Metaphysics how reality is structured that

00:21:10 --> 00:21:11

is the believing part.

00:21:11 --> 00:21:14

Okay, a lot of converts for example a

00:21:14 --> 00:21:17

Lot of converts enter through the believing part.

00:21:17 --> 00:21:19

So for them sort of the entrance is

00:21:19 --> 00:21:21

a cognitive experience You know, it's a thinking

00:21:21 --> 00:21:24

experience, especially with a lot of men, you

00:21:24 --> 00:21:25

know We we're you know We're stuck in

00:21:25 --> 00:21:27

our own bubble and then sort of we're

00:21:27 --> 00:21:29

dragging in trouble for that line No, like

00:21:29 --> 00:21:31

you didn't say not the thing is is

00:21:31 --> 00:21:32

that of course yes for women as well

00:21:32 --> 00:21:34

But the thing is is that a lot

00:21:34 --> 00:21:35

of data showed that that's the thing the

00:21:35 --> 00:21:38

data shows it So even though it we

00:21:38 --> 00:21:40

don't like those stereotypes a lot of data

00:21:40 --> 00:21:43

shows is that and the belong relatively speaking?

00:21:43 --> 00:21:45

Yeah, the reasons are a little bit Based

00:21:45 --> 00:21:49

character based intelligence based and of course, so

00:21:49 --> 00:21:53

therefore yes you have Spread out over the

00:21:53 --> 00:21:56

two genders certain characters with certain challenges are

00:21:56 --> 00:21:58

more fit that are more faith focus on

00:21:58 --> 00:22:00

a more sort of more Interaction focused, but

00:22:00 --> 00:22:02

it's you still and that's the point so

00:22:02 --> 00:22:05

cognitive versus versus community you're saying Yeah, but

00:22:05 --> 00:22:08

and the socialization socialization, but the thing is

00:22:08 --> 00:22:09

you need both in the end So it

00:22:09 --> 00:22:10

doesn't again.

00:22:10 --> 00:22:11

I always say them doesn't mind if you

00:22:11 --> 00:22:13

enter through the front door through the window

00:22:13 --> 00:22:15

doesn't matter That's not a so again that

00:22:15 --> 00:22:16

idealist part.

00:22:16 --> 00:22:18

I really already had the full worldview.

00:22:18 --> 00:22:20

I entered it No, I still don't on

00:22:20 --> 00:22:21

the parts of it still don't understand that

00:22:21 --> 00:22:24

Arnold and converted this Arnold Just sort of

00:22:24 --> 00:22:26

has it all has the whole rational worldview

00:22:26 --> 00:22:30

mapped out Study Islam theology went through into

00:22:30 --> 00:22:32

it that you believe it's just not honest

00:22:32 --> 00:22:34

to say hey I made this conscious purely

00:22:34 --> 00:22:37

objective decision that Islam is an absolute truth

00:22:37 --> 00:22:39

It's way more complex.

00:22:39 --> 00:22:40

I was I was I was still 20

00:22:40 --> 00:22:43

year old stoner But the thing is it

00:22:43 --> 00:22:45

convinced me and then it was the nice

00:22:45 --> 00:22:50

Muslims That made me feel safe Okay, we're

00:22:50 --> 00:22:52

back on the podcast team.

00:22:52 --> 00:22:56

Yes That's the whole point is that The

00:22:56 --> 00:22:59

belonging itself is the life world that is

00:22:59 --> 00:23:01

where you how you live that worldview and

00:23:01 --> 00:23:04

that you do with others So the worldview

00:23:04 --> 00:23:05

you can have it on paper There are

00:23:05 --> 00:23:07

a lot of religions that exist only as

00:23:07 --> 00:23:09

a worldview on paper because there's no community

00:23:09 --> 00:23:12

anymore living that worldview There's no so that

00:23:12 --> 00:23:14

religion a lot of those religions are what

00:23:14 --> 00:23:16

we call dead religions because there's no life

00:23:16 --> 00:23:18

world And the people don't live it anymore

00:23:19 --> 00:23:21

But our religion hum do the LA is

00:23:21 --> 00:23:25

a worldview that's alive It's lived by people,

00:23:25 --> 00:23:26

but it's a communal religion.

00:23:27 --> 00:23:31

So as a convert then You cannot do

00:23:31 --> 00:23:33

it alone because even the books that tell

00:23:33 --> 00:23:35

you how to pray imagine.

00:23:35 --> 00:23:37

Can you really hundred percent?

00:23:38 --> 00:23:40

Practice the religion purely if you follow the

00:23:40 --> 00:23:43

theories There's there there are deep so many

00:23:43 --> 00:23:45

details of prayer even or doing the what

00:23:45 --> 00:23:47

you know washing it So yeah until the

00:23:47 --> 00:23:49

elbows, but the way you do it sort

00:23:49 --> 00:23:51

of I learned on by reading I learned

00:23:51 --> 00:23:55

by seeing and mimicking So there's already our

00:23:55 --> 00:23:59

religion a large part of it is Impossible

00:23:59 --> 00:24:01

to do from my perspective mainly impossible to

00:24:01 --> 00:24:04

do without that socialization But I know so

00:24:04 --> 00:24:07

that belonging has to do it But what

00:24:07 --> 00:24:10

does them belonging belonging then of course in

00:24:10 --> 00:24:12

what way is it cultural in what way

00:24:12 --> 00:24:12

is it?

00:24:13 --> 00:24:15

Of course language one of the main problems

00:24:15 --> 00:24:17

I had in that beginning was I went

00:24:17 --> 00:24:19

to the mosque only certain people would know

00:24:19 --> 00:24:22

Dart or English the languages I knew and

00:24:24 --> 00:24:26

So that already was one of the main

00:24:26 --> 00:24:29

problems is that to belong is simply not

00:24:29 --> 00:24:31

to be present is to interact to be

00:24:31 --> 00:24:34

Understood to understand the other so I have

00:24:34 --> 00:24:35

two very important questions on this that are

00:24:35 --> 00:24:39

very Practical for those running our centers are

00:24:39 --> 00:24:42

massaged in in Europe and in America the

00:24:42 --> 00:24:44

first of them is that would you agree

00:24:44 --> 00:24:49

then with the theory that For Later generations

00:24:49 --> 00:24:52

of even people raised Muslim right like born

00:24:52 --> 00:24:54

into Muslim families or born to Muslim parents

00:24:55 --> 00:24:58

Since their ethnic identity in Europe or in

00:24:58 --> 00:25:04

the Americas is becoming a Secondary identity right

00:25:04 --> 00:25:07

like I'm not as Egyptian as my parents

00:25:07 --> 00:25:09

or Moroccan as my parents then in that

00:25:09 --> 00:25:12

sense There is a sort of a dovetailing

00:25:12 --> 00:25:14

of the need for belonging like how do

00:25:14 --> 00:25:16

we make sure we don't we don't make

00:25:16 --> 00:25:18

them choose Hey, are you are you American

00:25:18 --> 00:25:18

or Egyptian?

00:25:19 --> 00:25:20

We're not Americans here, or we're not sort

00:25:20 --> 00:25:22

of like a Dutch here, and then you

00:25:22 --> 00:25:24

can actually Convert them out of the religion

00:25:24 --> 00:25:26

if you will if you if it becomes

00:25:26 --> 00:25:28

too heavy of a culture identity Do you

00:25:28 --> 00:25:30

so do you believe that that everyone can

00:25:30 --> 00:25:31

really be seen as a convert of sorts

00:25:31 --> 00:25:34

because we're all a work in progress not

00:25:34 --> 00:25:38

so from like a Strategic perspective yeah, not

00:25:38 --> 00:25:41

theological of course so there are multiple Conversion

00:25:41 --> 00:25:43

theories and a lot of this research has

00:25:43 --> 00:25:45

been done especially in relation to Christianity and

00:25:45 --> 00:25:47

Christians But they're usable for us as well,

00:25:48 --> 00:25:50

but I do hope that more Muslim sociologists

00:25:50 --> 00:25:55

and anthropologists Understanding the inside of the Islamic

00:25:55 --> 00:25:58

worldview also start to engage it more, but

00:25:58 --> 00:26:01

I always like the theory of lose Rambo

00:26:02 --> 00:26:04

Where he talks about there are sort of

00:26:04 --> 00:26:08

seven phases and What he also emphasizes, and

00:26:08 --> 00:26:10

they're not sort of a very linear They

00:26:10 --> 00:26:12

can be very messy, but he says everybody

00:26:12 --> 00:26:13

sort of starts out with their sort of

00:26:13 --> 00:26:15

domain context That's how you begin same thing

00:26:15 --> 00:26:17

for you You come for Egyptian family you

00:26:17 --> 00:26:19

grew up in America And then he says

00:26:19 --> 00:26:20

then you can have sort of a crisis

00:26:20 --> 00:26:22

and crisis not meant the buildings on fire

00:26:22 --> 00:26:26

crisis sort of Trying to reconcile worldview and

00:26:26 --> 00:26:27

life world doesn't align.

00:26:27 --> 00:26:29

I live like this, but I'm told this

00:26:29 --> 00:26:32

yeah and and also that and because especially

00:26:32 --> 00:26:38

because if in Muslim majority countries Islam is

00:26:39 --> 00:26:41

Lived and mapped out in mosques and also

00:26:41 --> 00:26:44

in as minorities living in for example in

00:26:44 --> 00:26:47

Non-muslim countries in the mosque Islam is

00:26:47 --> 00:26:48

sort of mapped out it makes sense So

00:26:48 --> 00:26:50

you can see this very clear comparison between

00:26:50 --> 00:26:53

a mosque in Turkey or Morocco or Egypt

00:26:53 --> 00:26:54

and a mosque for example America or in

00:26:54 --> 00:26:57

Holland But outside of it's completely different here

00:26:57 --> 00:26:59

in Turkey even this is a secular country

00:26:59 --> 00:27:01

Islam is mapped out outside of it.

00:27:01 --> 00:27:04

It's present It's there so you are even

00:27:04 --> 00:27:07

if you maybe you're not Muslim implicitly if

00:27:07 --> 00:27:09

you live in Turkey You're implicitly you eat

00:27:09 --> 00:27:11

halal if you think there's an implicit Muslim

00:27:11 --> 00:27:15

life for us in the West as Muslim

00:27:15 --> 00:27:18

minorities We have to force ourselves to be

00:27:18 --> 00:27:20

Muslim outside of the mosque and so to

00:27:20 --> 00:27:23

be Like very practical in terms of being

00:27:23 --> 00:27:26

efficient as message it at offering landing plat

00:27:26 --> 00:27:28

more forms for our converts like on the

00:27:28 --> 00:27:30

one side And anchor and reborns Henry Moore's

00:27:30 --> 00:27:32

I guess yeah, so that was the two

00:27:32 --> 00:27:33

threads I want to see if I can

00:27:33 --> 00:27:35

do one for this and one for that

00:27:36 --> 00:27:38

Almost as if like a checklist for people

00:27:38 --> 00:27:41

listening on what they can do for those

00:27:41 --> 00:27:42

coming in they need like a landing site

00:27:43 --> 00:27:45

For their educational, but also their social needs

00:27:45 --> 00:27:48

like educational You said you became Muslim and

00:27:48 --> 00:27:49

even the five pillars were not sort of

00:27:49 --> 00:27:51

very oh, I have to pray I have

00:27:51 --> 00:27:54

to fast so that may not be available

00:27:54 --> 00:27:55

in the Jamaal Khutbah that may not be

00:27:55 --> 00:27:57

available on the night All right, it's a

00:27:57 --> 00:28:00

given yeah, it's by osmosis a person picks

00:28:00 --> 00:28:02

it up if they've been raised Muslim or

00:28:02 --> 00:28:03

hanging around for long enough But we don't

00:28:03 --> 00:28:04

want people to sort of wait around and

00:28:04 --> 00:28:06

one treat that as something that's done by

00:28:06 --> 00:28:08

the families like you said Right, you know

00:28:08 --> 00:28:10

so how to be intentional to create that

00:28:12 --> 00:28:14

and At the same time social support because

00:28:14 --> 00:28:17

quranically speaking people rush back to God between

00:28:17 --> 00:28:19

a rock and a hard place Right and

00:28:19 --> 00:28:22

so we should expect that More often than

00:28:22 --> 00:28:25

not not always people will be coming in

00:28:25 --> 00:28:28

to the faith Because Allah blessed them with

00:28:28 --> 00:28:30

a hurdle in their life that will caught

00:28:30 --> 00:28:32

or even a scar or a wound That

00:28:32 --> 00:28:35

will send them looking for healing and inshallah

00:28:35 --> 00:28:37

healing that will not just benefit their their

00:28:37 --> 00:28:39

worldly state But even their akhira like Allah

00:28:39 --> 00:28:41

breaks you to build you better right and

00:28:41 --> 00:28:43

so that means educational and social We need

00:28:43 --> 00:28:45

a landing site front and center ready to

00:28:45 --> 00:28:48

receive on those fronts if you could speak

00:28:48 --> 00:28:49

to that then maybe we can talk about

00:28:49 --> 00:28:52

on the other side for After the landing

00:28:52 --> 00:28:57

site for those that are On the fence

00:28:57 --> 00:29:00

you know many times not everyone there is

00:29:00 --> 00:29:03

there sometimes people are there until They don't

00:29:03 --> 00:29:05

have any more reasons to be there right

00:29:05 --> 00:29:07

or they find unsustainable to be there And

00:29:07 --> 00:29:08

so maybe we start with the converts.

00:29:08 --> 00:29:10

Do you let me tell you the impetus

00:29:10 --> 00:29:12

for this question also one final point forgive

00:29:12 --> 00:29:20

me is that Creating spaces for converts in

00:29:20 --> 00:29:23

Masajid, I understand it and I do it

00:29:23 --> 00:29:24

actually we have convert care in my masjid

00:29:25 --> 00:29:28

To validate their experiences and their unique needs,

00:29:28 --> 00:29:34

but also I fear sort of a Boundary

00:29:34 --> 00:29:34

being created.

00:29:35 --> 00:29:38

It's not like an intake method Like what

00:29:38 --> 00:29:40

does it mean to be like no longer

00:29:40 --> 00:29:41

a convert per se right?

00:29:41 --> 00:29:42

What's the graduation?

00:29:42 --> 00:29:44

I never deconvert it and what I mean

00:29:44 --> 00:29:46

by that is not only that I never

00:29:46 --> 00:29:49

left Islam, but also I mean I'm still

00:29:49 --> 00:29:52

after 20 more than 21 years still Approached

00:29:52 --> 00:29:54

as the convert right so you're always others

00:29:55 --> 00:30:02

so there is sort of A maximum Percentage

00:30:02 --> 00:30:03

of how much I can belong in the

00:30:03 --> 00:30:06

community because in a way I'm always the

00:30:06 --> 00:30:07

other there are moments where I forget.

00:30:08 --> 00:30:08

I'm a convert.

00:30:08 --> 00:30:11

I'm simply Muslim there are moments and that

00:30:11 --> 00:30:12

mainly has to do is when I when

00:30:12 --> 00:30:15

people don't look at me or Approach me

00:30:15 --> 00:30:17

or fit or talk to me as the

00:30:17 --> 00:30:20

convert But simply as your brother and a

00:30:20 --> 00:30:21

lot of time and that's a that's also

00:30:21 --> 00:30:23

sort of as comfort I don't know There's

00:30:23 --> 00:30:25

two ways to look at this shaykh and

00:30:25 --> 00:30:27

forgive me again There's like the badge of

00:30:27 --> 00:30:29

honor way to look at this right like

00:30:29 --> 00:30:32

the sahabah or convert, you know, even you

00:30:32 --> 00:30:33

know, I recall I'm sorry.

00:30:33 --> 00:30:34

I'm gonna digress a bit and I hope

00:30:34 --> 00:30:37

it's useful Bilal Ibn Rabah radiyallahu anhu right

00:30:37 --> 00:30:40

sort of the iconic convert there's in his

00:30:40 --> 00:30:43

biography You read that him and his brother

00:30:43 --> 00:30:44

one time after the death of the Prophet

00:30:44 --> 00:30:45

sallallahu alayhi wa sallam.

00:30:45 --> 00:30:47

Apparently they went to marry two sisters Mm

00:30:47 --> 00:30:50

-hmm, and they were introducing themselves and they

00:30:50 --> 00:30:53

said He said I am Bilal and this

00:30:53 --> 00:30:54

is my brother.

00:30:54 --> 00:30:55

We are two men from Al-Habasha.

00:30:56 --> 00:30:58

We are from Ethiopia or Abyssinia or not

00:30:59 --> 00:31:03

We were lost and Allah guided us Kuna

00:31:03 --> 00:31:04

dhallaini fa ahadana Allah.

00:31:05 --> 00:31:06

Kuna abdaini fa a'taqana Allah.

00:31:06 --> 00:31:08

And we were two slaves and Allah emancipated

00:31:08 --> 00:31:11

us Fa intu zawuju and if you permit

00:31:11 --> 00:31:14

us to marry into your family falhamdulillah, and

00:31:14 --> 00:31:17

if you don't fallahu akbar That's nice.

00:31:17 --> 00:31:20

If you permit we thank God if you

00:31:20 --> 00:31:23

don't permit God is greater like he's almost

00:31:23 --> 00:31:26

this is his CV Yeah that you know,

00:31:26 --> 00:31:29

I you know, I identify even Salman al

00:31:29 --> 00:31:31

-farsi we began with he was called Salman

00:31:31 --> 00:31:33

ibn al-islam This didn't erase of course

00:31:33 --> 00:31:35

his ethnic ancestry, but he was known as

00:31:35 --> 00:31:37

Salman the son of Islam That was his

00:31:37 --> 00:31:39

greatest honorific as opposed to like you said

00:31:39 --> 00:31:42

other rising or sort of second classing within

00:31:42 --> 00:31:44

the community Intentionally or not, like I said,

00:31:44 --> 00:31:46

sometimes we offer these services for our converts

00:31:46 --> 00:31:51

to validate their unique needs But it is

00:31:51 --> 00:31:53

almost seen as a way to or it

00:31:53 --> 00:31:56

translates at times into them never outgrowing this.

00:31:56 --> 00:31:58

Oh, he's a beginner He's still in the

00:31:58 --> 00:31:58

kindergarten.

00:31:58 --> 00:31:58

Exactly.

00:31:59 --> 00:32:02

So I remember talking to a man that

00:32:02 --> 00:32:04

converted more than 60 years ago 60 years

00:32:04 --> 00:32:06

ago and he said I'm still treated as

00:32:06 --> 00:32:07

a convert when I walk into a Mosque

00:32:07 --> 00:32:10

because I'm one of the only white guys

00:32:10 --> 00:32:11

stepping in so there was like, hey, what

00:32:11 --> 00:32:11

are you doing here?

00:32:11 --> 00:32:13

It said that he says you're always treated

00:32:13 --> 00:32:15

as the other So that's there's also an

00:32:15 --> 00:32:17

element to it That of course and I

00:32:17 --> 00:32:19

was think of I've thought a lot about

00:32:19 --> 00:32:21

this like every culture is a comfort culture

00:32:21 --> 00:32:22

Even though a lot of Muslim cultures forget

00:32:22 --> 00:32:22

it.

00:32:23 --> 00:32:25

They add they think as if they've been

00:32:25 --> 00:32:27

Muslim always But the thing in every culture

00:32:27 --> 00:32:28

is comfort.

00:32:28 --> 00:32:32

They had the thresholds a moment and like

00:32:32 --> 00:32:35

so now northern Europe and America inshallah, you

00:32:35 --> 00:32:37

know, like How would they look at those

00:32:37 --> 00:32:38

500 years from now?

00:32:38 --> 00:32:40

You know when sort of the majority now

00:32:40 --> 00:32:42

or a large part has become Muslim like

00:32:42 --> 00:32:44

for example in Yugoslavia part is Christian part

00:32:44 --> 00:32:46

It's Muslim and it's normal for them now

00:32:46 --> 00:32:48

Even though Bosnia they started to convert only

00:32:48 --> 00:32:51

500 years ago or even 300 years ago,

00:32:51 --> 00:32:54

you know, so This is not a threshold

00:32:54 --> 00:32:58

phase Mosques should create landing platforms as a

00:32:58 --> 00:33:01

threshold phase for converts But that is sort

00:33:01 --> 00:33:06

of part of the Yeah The thing is

00:33:06 --> 00:33:09

for a convert itself So I converted when

00:33:09 --> 00:33:10

I was 20.

00:33:10 --> 00:33:13

It's felt like you're six again so sort

00:33:13 --> 00:33:15

of you have to be parents yourself as

00:33:15 --> 00:33:18

a Muslim and You're treated as a child

00:33:18 --> 00:33:20

even by the community and also you're confronted

00:33:20 --> 00:33:23

by that when you for example by a

00:33:23 --> 00:33:24

well-meaning community Yeah, yeah.

00:33:24 --> 00:33:24

Yeah.

00:33:24 --> 00:33:26

No, it's not about blaming.

00:33:26 --> 00:33:29

Yeah, it's about seeing it and understanding it

00:33:29 --> 00:33:32

you can't sometimes you have those moments of

00:33:32 --> 00:33:36

resentment and You know, I'll give you an

00:33:36 --> 00:33:39

actual story like I'm gonna whoever doesn't hear

00:33:39 --> 00:33:41

the rest of this clip needs to stop

00:33:41 --> 00:33:44

now because unless you hear the full contact

00:33:44 --> 00:33:48

it comes off wrong I Generally speaking because

00:33:48 --> 00:33:51

of just probabilities and like likelihoods not because

00:33:51 --> 00:33:53

there's no exceptions to this there's many exceptions

00:33:53 --> 00:33:57

to it, but likelihood a Convert from another

00:33:57 --> 00:34:00

religion that was raised from into another religion

00:34:00 --> 00:34:03

I don't necessarily encourage them to marry someone

00:34:03 --> 00:34:05

that was born into a Muslim family and

00:34:06 --> 00:34:09

the reason being is that after 20 years

00:34:09 --> 00:34:12

of serving the community I See that a

00:34:12 --> 00:34:14

convert married to a convert is more sympathetic

00:34:14 --> 00:34:17

to the experiences of the convert, right?

00:34:17 --> 00:34:19

What I mean is that oh I too

00:34:19 --> 00:34:22

have family members that yeah, you know have

00:34:22 --> 00:34:24

this that in the third I too am

00:34:24 --> 00:34:26

struggling with how to reconcile how I want

00:34:26 --> 00:34:27

to raise my kids with but I whether

00:34:27 --> 00:34:30

it's the alcohol or the tattooism or sort

00:34:30 --> 00:34:32

of like the The extreme sort of liberal

00:34:32 --> 00:34:35

iteration in terms of sexual orientation and otherwise

00:34:35 --> 00:34:38

and I've seen converts actually be more compassionate

00:34:38 --> 00:34:39

more Understanding.

00:34:40 --> 00:34:41

Yes, because they they're cut from the same

00:34:41 --> 00:34:44

cloth Yeah and so out of fear that

00:34:44 --> 00:34:46

the convert will be pushed away by From

00:34:46 --> 00:34:49

Islam by the intolerance of a person who

00:34:49 --> 00:34:52

he doesn't realize he's never been tested with

00:34:52 --> 00:34:54

family members of this sort Or a community

00:34:54 --> 00:34:54

of that sort.

00:34:55 --> 00:34:57

I See it like I see that, you

00:34:57 --> 00:35:01

know keeping them Not isolated but sort of

00:35:02 --> 00:35:04

Bolstering each other but at the same time

00:35:04 --> 00:35:07

you have helpful You have you have Muslim

00:35:07 --> 00:35:10

families that are that are diverse so I

00:35:10 --> 00:35:13

also know for example that especially when you

00:35:13 --> 00:35:15

have for example people coming from sort of

00:35:15 --> 00:35:17

more secularized Muslim families and they Sort of

00:35:17 --> 00:35:20

already start to really practice it the reborns

00:35:20 --> 00:35:23

and like yeah, my brother has tattoos is

00:35:23 --> 00:35:25

drinking this and so sometimes also Then it's

00:35:25 --> 00:35:29

especially the converse Although she technically comes from

00:35:29 --> 00:35:30

or he or she comes from a Muslim

00:35:30 --> 00:35:33

family That the convert is the one that

00:35:33 --> 00:35:35

is exactly the person they need because that's

00:35:35 --> 00:35:37

the one that will not Blame her or

00:35:37 --> 00:35:40

him in that exactly and that is why

00:35:40 --> 00:35:43

I think over Dealing with diversity dealing with

00:35:43 --> 00:35:44

diversity.

00:35:44 --> 00:35:47

I think healthy language exactly and To go

00:35:47 --> 00:35:49

back to what we're just talking about the

00:35:49 --> 00:35:50

landing platform itself and the other ring.

00:35:51 --> 00:35:53

There is a type of converts have to

00:35:53 --> 00:35:57

accept the fact that You have a before

00:35:57 --> 00:35:59

and after you know it others feel it

00:35:59 --> 00:36:01

or ask you about it.

00:36:01 --> 00:36:04

And that is sort of a Blessing and

00:36:04 --> 00:36:06

a birding and that's simply simply life and

00:36:06 --> 00:36:07

you have to accept it It took me

00:36:07 --> 00:36:09

long for me to accept it for a

00:36:09 --> 00:36:10

long time.

00:36:10 --> 00:36:11

I tried to run away from it and

00:36:13 --> 00:36:16

But you need planning platforms, but what but

00:36:16 --> 00:36:17

it's a landing platform on the top of

00:36:17 --> 00:36:20

the building, you know, so You're eventually meant

00:36:20 --> 00:36:22

to go into the building not stay on

00:36:22 --> 00:36:24

top of the building So the idea is

00:36:24 --> 00:36:26

of course that people are integrated into the

00:36:26 --> 00:36:29

community at the same time in the need

00:36:29 --> 00:36:31

the landing platform But we should have to

00:36:31 --> 00:36:34

be very careful as to like locking the

00:36:34 --> 00:36:36

door on the roof Because you keep people

00:36:36 --> 00:36:39

out in the storms and in the wind

00:36:39 --> 00:36:41

And it's beautiful and the thing is if

00:36:41 --> 00:36:43

we go back to conversion theory because that's

00:36:43 --> 00:36:45

focus Of course on the social and psychological

00:36:45 --> 00:36:47

elements of conversion because we forget a lot

00:36:47 --> 00:36:49

of times like oh Allah guided you.

00:36:49 --> 00:36:52

Yes, but you but Allah uses a lot

00:36:52 --> 00:36:55

of as bad Because technically he guided me

00:36:55 --> 00:36:58

to a human that gave me something There's

00:36:58 --> 00:36:59

a social element into it and one of

00:36:59 --> 00:37:01

the things that conversion if you look for

00:37:01 --> 00:37:03

example using for example Rambo He says there

00:37:03 --> 00:37:05

are seven elements of conversion So first of

00:37:05 --> 00:37:08

all the starting point your own context as

00:37:08 --> 00:37:10

a as a pre-convert then the crisis

00:37:10 --> 00:37:12

implicit or explicit That's sort of like you

00:37:12 --> 00:37:15

said That rock place forces you to choose

00:37:15 --> 00:37:16

now.

00:37:16 --> 00:37:21

No forces you to open up What we

00:37:21 --> 00:37:23

call the quest to search you implicit unconsciously

00:37:23 --> 00:37:26

or consciously are open towards new ideas and

00:37:26 --> 00:37:29

then you meet something or someone or both

00:37:29 --> 00:37:31

so I met someone who gave me gave

00:37:31 --> 00:37:34

me something the Quran and That that sort

00:37:34 --> 00:37:37

of that first meetup maybe gets you interested

00:37:37 --> 00:37:39

Hey, I like this and then we have

00:37:39 --> 00:37:42

what we call the phase of interaction where

00:37:42 --> 00:37:44

you test out Is this the thing that

00:37:44 --> 00:37:45

solves my crisis?

00:37:45 --> 00:37:47

Do I feel alignment?

00:37:47 --> 00:37:50

Does it solve my feeling of that's the

00:37:50 --> 00:37:52

thing now believing an interest in belief becomes

00:37:52 --> 00:37:53

do I belong?

00:37:54 --> 00:37:55

This is interaction.

00:37:55 --> 00:37:56

Do I belong in this lifestyle?

00:37:56 --> 00:37:59

Is this my life world and then now

00:37:59 --> 00:38:01

the balls in the corner diversity is needed

00:38:01 --> 00:38:05

more sort of valves for belonging Now you

00:38:05 --> 00:38:07

cannot force diversity that simply is there in

00:38:07 --> 00:38:08

a community or not.

00:38:08 --> 00:38:10

But the thing is I'm almost like saying

00:38:10 --> 00:38:13

yeah Trot don't try to fix it.

00:38:14 --> 00:38:15

Let it be it has in a lot.

00:38:15 --> 00:38:19

Yes, exactly And and so the converts you

00:38:19 --> 00:38:22

have to as a community The community has

00:38:22 --> 00:38:25

to learn to belong with converts and the

00:38:25 --> 00:38:26

community and the comfort has to learn to

00:38:26 --> 00:38:29

belong to the community so both have to

00:38:29 --> 00:38:31

learn with it to deal with a new

00:38:31 --> 00:38:34

type of diversity and This is important that

00:38:34 --> 00:38:36

and then lose Rambo says and then the

00:38:36 --> 00:38:39

last phase is the consequential phase He says

00:38:39 --> 00:38:41

and now you have to learn to live

00:38:41 --> 00:38:43

with the consequences of your conversion And a

00:38:43 --> 00:38:45

lot of times if that starts a new

00:38:45 --> 00:38:49

crisis because this becomes your context again That's

00:38:49 --> 00:38:51

a post conversion, but that can if that

00:38:51 --> 00:38:53

starts a new crisis again the cycle starts

00:38:53 --> 00:38:56

again like I said, I had seven six

00:38:56 --> 00:39:00

conversions after my main conversion because I Didn't

00:39:00 --> 00:39:02

belong to the community that part had to

00:39:02 --> 00:39:03

do with being 20 year old being my

00:39:03 --> 00:39:06

type of character Not every community can deal

00:39:06 --> 00:39:06

with every type of care.

00:39:07 --> 00:39:09

My nickname was the one who asked questions

00:39:09 --> 00:39:12

before and after Islam Yeah, so so and

00:39:12 --> 00:39:15

the community could not serve my remember hearing

00:39:15 --> 00:39:16

you say also Maybe there's just another good

00:39:16 --> 00:39:19

example to help people in the massage it

00:39:19 --> 00:39:21

understand how people may need different things at

00:39:21 --> 00:39:23

different moments They need a landing site.

00:39:23 --> 00:39:23

They need a staircase.

00:39:23 --> 00:39:26

They sort of need Sort of this multiple

00:39:26 --> 00:39:28

floors and they'll plug into whatever may work

00:39:28 --> 00:39:29

for them.

00:39:29 --> 00:39:30

It may not be theoretically the ideal even

00:39:30 --> 00:39:34

Theologically the ideal we have the ideal preserved

00:39:34 --> 00:39:36

but to give people room to grow even

00:39:36 --> 00:39:38

yeah I maybe my 20 year old is

00:39:38 --> 00:39:40

not my 40 year old self, but I

00:39:40 --> 00:39:43

think the example I was Trying to invoke

00:39:43 --> 00:39:46

I remember you saying that without a mention

00:39:46 --> 00:39:48

of names that you had chosen a certain

00:39:51 --> 00:39:58

Order ideologically within Islam to practice spirituality Specifically

00:39:58 --> 00:40:00

because it was not membership based.

00:40:00 --> 00:40:03

Yeah, and had you not come from a

00:40:03 --> 00:40:07

Catholic background You would not have been as

00:40:07 --> 00:40:11

drawn maybe to an exclusivist sort of member

00:40:11 --> 00:40:15

and potentially tribal based System, right?

00:40:15 --> 00:40:17

And so that fits you perfectly and you

00:40:17 --> 00:40:20

wanted to drift away from this and had

00:40:20 --> 00:40:22

that been too identical within Islam maybe it

00:40:22 --> 00:40:23

wouldn't have appealed to you more than that

00:40:23 --> 00:40:26

I was brought I was raised and a

00:40:26 --> 00:40:28

lot of Muslims now master race like that

00:40:28 --> 00:40:32

true public education true media influence everything else

00:40:32 --> 00:40:35

I had a modern and postmodern mindset a

00:40:35 --> 00:40:37

lot of my feelings and my ideas of

00:40:38 --> 00:40:43

love and Morality and interconnection tolerance were postmodern.

00:40:43 --> 00:40:43

Yeah.

00:40:43 --> 00:40:46

So for me, you know gay marriage who

00:40:46 --> 00:40:47

cares, you know that type of mindset and

00:40:47 --> 00:40:50

with Modernity miracles cannot happen because I had

00:40:50 --> 00:40:53

this enlightenment approach towards nature and like realistic

00:40:53 --> 00:40:56

Yeah, so so yeah, so after my conversion

00:40:56 --> 00:40:59

it took me 10 years to shake off

00:41:00 --> 00:41:03

that sort of those elements that orientations in

00:41:03 --> 00:41:06

my world view so I Had very much

00:41:06 --> 00:41:09

although I was raised Catholic I wasn't miracles,

00:41:09 --> 00:41:12

for example so sort of so reading the

00:41:12 --> 00:41:13

Quran on the miracles a bit like I

00:41:13 --> 00:41:15

tried to find ways of Interpreting in a

00:41:15 --> 00:41:17

way that I still felt that my that

00:41:17 --> 00:41:19

that sort of it fitted my my Tendencies

00:41:19 --> 00:41:21

same thing with a lot of ideas of

00:41:21 --> 00:41:24

tolerance is like had to do with that

00:41:24 --> 00:41:26

So it took me about 10 years and

00:41:26 --> 00:41:28

sort of going constantly through that cycle again

00:41:28 --> 00:41:31

And that's not always blaming the community that

00:41:31 --> 00:41:33

simply had to do with Arnold and his

00:41:33 --> 00:41:36

tendency in his character and growing up so

00:41:36 --> 00:41:37

it had to do with sort of the

00:41:37 --> 00:41:40

this is what we call the Developmental psychology

00:41:40 --> 00:41:44

is that it's I see seen converts in

00:41:44 --> 00:41:44

two years.

00:41:44 --> 00:41:47

They get it They normalize into it and

00:41:47 --> 00:41:48

done and I always felt jealous about those

00:41:48 --> 00:41:51

like why do I have that easy belonging?

00:41:51 --> 00:41:54

Well, I sort of constantly resisting it But

00:41:54 --> 00:41:56

in the end it made me some it

00:41:56 --> 00:41:57

made me do philosophy religion maybe do this

00:41:57 --> 00:42:00

it forced me into the university to find

00:42:00 --> 00:42:02

my way and understand it and Then also

00:42:02 --> 00:42:05

meet people that created belonging for me and

00:42:05 --> 00:42:07

one of the things that I love sort

00:42:07 --> 00:42:09

of Allah bless me with Next to the

00:42:09 --> 00:42:13

Quran has always been not only General Muslims

00:42:13 --> 00:42:15

and communities that make created belonging for me

00:42:15 --> 00:42:17

that some of them are still my best

00:42:17 --> 00:42:20

friends simply as common believers, but especially Muslim

00:42:20 --> 00:42:24

scholars that sort of When this sort of

00:42:24 --> 00:42:29

arrogant resisting asking questions White guy showed up

00:42:29 --> 00:42:31

and they were like sit down hold my

00:42:31 --> 00:42:33

hand and I'll be that they never be

00:42:33 --> 00:42:35

system They gave me this feeling of belonging

00:42:36 --> 00:42:40

even though I Still to do a lot

00:42:40 --> 00:42:40

of work.

00:42:40 --> 00:42:42

So for like I said, you have to

00:42:42 --> 00:42:43

reparent yourself when I converted when I was

00:42:43 --> 00:42:46

20 I became six again So that it

00:42:46 --> 00:42:48

took me ten years to be an adult

00:42:48 --> 00:42:50

in the sense as a Muslim is logical

00:42:50 --> 00:42:52

and that's the thing as well that and

00:42:52 --> 00:42:54

a lot and because of your in the

00:42:54 --> 00:42:56

sort of this word cycle and There's a

00:42:56 --> 00:42:59

part of conversion Imagine I stopped doing drugs

00:42:59 --> 00:43:01

this and this so the first two years

00:43:01 --> 00:43:03

are sort of rehab as well And the

00:43:03 --> 00:43:04

community has to deal with that as well

00:43:04 --> 00:43:06

You have to deal with a guy with

00:43:06 --> 00:43:08

a guy or a woman that sometimes they

00:43:08 --> 00:43:12

have very hard backgrounds that Sort of so

00:43:12 --> 00:43:15

you are the rehab center Do we have

00:43:15 --> 00:43:17

center of lifestyles?

00:43:17 --> 00:43:19

We have centers of thinking we have centers

00:43:19 --> 00:43:22

of Eat with your right hand ethics, you

00:43:22 --> 00:43:25

know etiquette or at the very least I

00:43:25 --> 00:43:26

mean time is winding down now.

00:43:26 --> 00:43:28

I think I'm a good message for us

00:43:28 --> 00:43:29

to linger on as communities I don't want

00:43:29 --> 00:43:31

to speak high horse to sort of whoever

00:43:31 --> 00:43:32

may be listening and benefiting and is humble

00:43:32 --> 00:43:35

enough to indulge me for all these podcasts,

00:43:35 --> 00:43:38

but at least the patience and the compassion

00:43:38 --> 00:43:42

the empathy until other institutions can help or

00:43:42 --> 00:43:47

other Social circles can help them right Maybe

00:43:47 --> 00:43:50

fellow Muslims not necessarily a message program is

00:43:50 --> 00:43:52

going to be a rehab center right and

00:43:52 --> 00:43:55

a reintegration program And I overstated a bit

00:43:55 --> 00:43:56

of course, of course, I know what you

00:43:56 --> 00:43:57

mean in the wider sense Anyway, I was

00:43:57 --> 00:44:00

trying to widen for our listeners that the

00:44:00 --> 00:44:02

term convert by the way, your kids are

00:44:02 --> 00:44:03

convert type thing I want to say that

00:44:03 --> 00:44:05

also rehab.

00:44:05 --> 00:44:07

I know you meant it in the widest

00:44:07 --> 00:44:11

possible conceptualization growing up, you know, I remember

00:44:12 --> 00:44:16

people were hyper vigilant about Tattoos in America

00:44:16 --> 00:44:17

at least in American Muslim community.

00:44:18 --> 00:44:19

I always clocked it like that.

00:44:19 --> 00:44:20

It was kind of normal for me I

00:44:20 --> 00:44:22

went to public school my whole life but

00:44:22 --> 00:44:23

still in the message people would freak out

00:44:23 --> 00:44:25

when someone was with a tattoo and then

00:44:25 --> 00:44:27

one time I just stopped and said You

00:44:27 --> 00:44:28

know, the problem sauce Allah has a lot

00:44:28 --> 00:44:31

of a hadith forbidding tattoos That probably means

00:44:31 --> 00:44:33

there was a whole lot of Sahaba who

00:44:33 --> 00:44:34

had tattoos.

00:44:34 --> 00:44:36

It was like a cultural norm Yeah, and

00:44:36 --> 00:44:39

so that means some of them Filled the

00:44:39 --> 00:44:41

message with tattoos because he wanted to stop

00:44:41 --> 00:44:44

a living practice living practice and so for

00:44:44 --> 00:44:46

me It was like I may have even

00:44:46 --> 00:44:47

heard one brother say this to another brother

00:44:47 --> 00:44:49

and he had every right to say You

00:44:49 --> 00:44:51

know brother tattoos are haram and he said

00:44:51 --> 00:44:53

something along the lines of well This one

00:44:53 --> 00:44:55

is gonna cost me six sessions and five

00:44:55 --> 00:44:57

thousand dollars to laser remove it Yeah, I

00:44:57 --> 00:44:59

didn't get a nice big sizable budget of

00:44:59 --> 00:45:01

money when I took my Shahada to ruin

00:45:01 --> 00:45:02

my tattoos I know that those are haram.

00:45:02 --> 00:45:05

You're the 1517 person that has told me

00:45:05 --> 00:45:06

this.

00:45:06 --> 00:45:08

Yeah, and I think that is powerful as

00:45:08 --> 00:45:10

well that this notion that you know you

00:45:10 --> 00:45:13

said and I'm gonna be like mess this

00:45:13 --> 00:45:18

up, but The Tattoos on our lenses like

00:45:18 --> 00:45:20

the stain on our worldview at times also

00:45:20 --> 00:45:22

take some Take some years.

00:45:22 --> 00:45:24

Yes, and you can't just snap your fingers

00:45:24 --> 00:45:27

and so to create a Sort of a

00:45:27 --> 00:45:29

society of understanding I remember and I shared

00:45:29 --> 00:45:31

this in a previous episode I entered a

00:45:31 --> 00:45:33

masjid that is celebrated in Brooklyn, New York

00:45:33 --> 00:45:35

as being a very youth centric masjid.

00:45:35 --> 00:45:38

Hmm, and I entered for Taraweeh I was

00:45:38 --> 00:45:39

invited to the masjid and I got to

00:45:39 --> 00:45:39

the masjid.

00:45:39 --> 00:45:41

I used to actually serve there years prior

00:45:41 --> 00:45:45

as their anyway in their management And as

00:45:45 --> 00:45:48

I answered the whole masjid felt like it

00:45:48 --> 00:45:52

was people in earrings and tattoos right and

00:45:52 --> 00:45:54

I was thinking oh my god that uncle

00:45:54 --> 00:45:56

from my past or uncles It's a class

00:45:56 --> 00:45:58

of people per se that have or haven't

00:45:58 --> 00:45:59

been exposed to this or there's a shock

00:45:59 --> 00:46:02

element for them I remember smiling very hard

00:46:03 --> 00:46:05

like they're in the message, it's not they're

00:46:05 --> 00:46:08

happy to be here exactly and You know

00:46:08 --> 00:46:10

like they're probably better than us and they're

00:46:10 --> 00:46:12

clean-slate and they're a work in progress

00:46:12 --> 00:46:15

and so are we and I think that

00:46:15 --> 00:46:18

that spirit along with so much of the

00:46:19 --> 00:46:21

The theory, alhamdulillah we've been discussing a lot

00:46:21 --> 00:46:23

of theory and people and some practical advice

00:46:23 --> 00:46:24

I hope the masjid make the best of

00:46:24 --> 00:46:26

it just to bring it all full circle

00:46:26 --> 00:46:31

that spirit of Do we welcome I don't

00:46:31 --> 00:46:33

want even say our guests but the newcomers

00:46:33 --> 00:46:36

right give them, you know a reason to

00:46:36 --> 00:46:39

want to land here Yeah, right and and

00:46:39 --> 00:46:40

the thing and like I said how we

00:46:40 --> 00:46:43

began the real question is Arnold.

00:46:43 --> 00:46:44

How did you stay Muslim?

00:46:45 --> 00:46:46

Yeah, and the thing is this has to

00:46:46 --> 00:46:50

do with some of the conversion Research shows

00:46:50 --> 00:46:53

that of the hundred persons that convert after

00:46:53 --> 00:46:56

ten years about half only remain And there

00:46:56 --> 00:46:58

are many reasons the highest number I've heard

00:46:58 --> 00:46:59

on this subject believe it or not.

00:46:59 --> 00:47:01

Yeah, the sum of that's great I hope

00:47:01 --> 00:47:03

it's true, but please continue There are some

00:47:03 --> 00:47:05

numbers that say 60 40 and by the

00:47:05 --> 00:47:08

way some are and we still need better

00:47:08 --> 00:47:10

research on this But let's at least it

00:47:10 --> 00:47:13

shows There's also people that phase out that

00:47:13 --> 00:47:16

clock out and if they look at why

00:47:16 --> 00:47:17

it mainly has to do it I don't

00:47:17 --> 00:47:20

feel belonging anymore It is so hard to

00:47:20 --> 00:47:23

hold on to worldview that you get that

00:47:23 --> 00:47:25

when you want to live it People make

00:47:25 --> 00:47:27

it almost impossible for you to feel normal

00:47:27 --> 00:47:30

in that life And like I said the

00:47:30 --> 00:47:32

the balls in the court of the community

00:47:32 --> 00:47:35

To keep that going and a lot of

00:47:35 --> 00:47:39

even raised as Muslim that stop practicing Has

00:47:39 --> 00:47:41

that has to do with them as well.

00:47:41 --> 00:47:42

They're chased out of the mosque in that

00:47:42 --> 00:47:45

way I don't see myself as that person.

00:47:45 --> 00:47:46

I don't feel like I fit the mold

00:47:46 --> 00:47:48

I don't belong to that sort of identity

00:47:48 --> 00:47:51

that was chosen by the Community you're saying

00:47:51 --> 00:47:54

yeah Or at least sort of I I'm

00:47:54 --> 00:47:56

not allowed to be mean a certain way

00:47:56 --> 00:47:59

or they don't expect don't they don't Sort

00:47:59 --> 00:48:01

of allow me to find my way.

00:48:01 --> 00:48:03

I'm a messy person They're all messy person,

00:48:03 --> 00:48:05

but they act as if they're not, you

00:48:05 --> 00:48:07

know that that type of thing So and

00:48:07 --> 00:48:10

then we get like I said Posse's also

00:48:10 --> 00:48:13

conversion It follows the same rules, you know

00:48:13 --> 00:48:18

context crisis quests so Also, why a lot

00:48:18 --> 00:48:21

of muslims have to seek other things, you

00:48:21 --> 00:48:22

know A lot of them become post-modern

00:48:22 --> 00:48:25

they are pro certain ideas because they're also

00:48:25 --> 00:48:28

formed by the context are in what do

00:48:28 --> 00:48:28

you do?

00:48:28 --> 00:48:31

Instead of blaming them for having certain ideas

00:48:31 --> 00:48:34

that are maybe post-modern that go against

00:48:34 --> 00:48:36

Islamic ideas instead of blaming them for them

00:48:36 --> 00:48:38

is like the root cause Yes And understand

00:48:38 --> 00:48:40

and instead of saying oh, you know If

00:48:40 --> 00:48:42

you do that, you're wrong isn't it?

00:48:42 --> 00:48:43

Like how did you get there?

00:48:43 --> 00:48:46

How it became you were socialized into it

00:48:46 --> 00:48:47

why because the majority of them are in

00:48:47 --> 00:48:49

a non-muslim country You can't blame them

00:48:49 --> 00:48:53

for so for socializing in the majority context

00:48:53 --> 00:48:56

because Islam is not a given Outside of

00:48:56 --> 00:48:56

the mosque.

00:48:57 --> 00:48:58

So this is a subject for another episode

00:48:58 --> 00:49:03

but to conclude You're saying that in this

00:49:03 --> 00:49:06

seven phase cycle that the Rambo puts out

00:49:06 --> 00:49:06

which I haven't read.

00:49:07 --> 00:49:12

Of course Sorry Rambo in the American yeah,

00:49:12 --> 00:49:14

I know I know I always that's always

00:49:14 --> 00:49:15

the fun when I teach it like Rambo

00:49:15 --> 00:49:19

is a real name So in those seven

00:49:19 --> 00:49:21

phases, it would also be true that these

00:49:21 --> 00:49:25

people who convert meaning to apostasy by the

00:49:25 --> 00:49:28

time we notice it it means We drop

00:49:28 --> 00:49:31

the ball much early Yes, because you're ready

00:49:31 --> 00:49:33

at 0.5 same thing that for our

00:49:33 --> 00:49:35

parents come in five is when it services.

00:49:35 --> 00:49:38

Yeah, exactly Because that's the thing so you

00:49:38 --> 00:49:41

have so meet up interactions and then you

00:49:41 --> 00:49:45

have sort of living it You're doing it's

00:49:45 --> 00:49:46

got the face of commitment.

00:49:46 --> 00:49:48

So this was where for example with when

00:49:48 --> 00:49:50

women start to wear the hijab You know

00:49:50 --> 00:49:52

when it's a later stage Yeah, so a

00:49:52 --> 00:49:53

lot of time our parents come to me

00:49:53 --> 00:49:56

like, oh she suddenly wears hijab.

00:49:56 --> 00:49:58

Oh, no No, you're you're that's phase five.

00:49:58 --> 00:50:01

That's phase six You know sort of and

00:50:01 --> 00:50:03

when I explain those phases like oh and

00:50:03 --> 00:50:06

we did it also for non-muslim parents

00:50:06 --> 00:50:09

of converts Like oh, we did not allow

00:50:09 --> 00:50:11

the space for her to be open about

00:50:11 --> 00:50:14

what was happening with her And that's why

00:50:14 --> 00:50:15

we said felt a sense of betrayal when

00:50:15 --> 00:50:16

you became Muslim.

00:50:16 --> 00:50:18

Yes It's like and then and I confronted

00:50:18 --> 00:50:21

with that like we're do you mean what

00:50:21 --> 00:50:21

is the thing for that?

00:50:21 --> 00:50:24

Okay, you you you're scared a lot of

00:50:24 --> 00:50:24

times.

00:50:24 --> 00:50:26

You're simply scared of losing their kids and

00:50:27 --> 00:50:30

Islam doesn't make you lose your kid You

00:50:30 --> 00:50:34

know, so it's super important advice When the

00:50:34 --> 00:50:35

community to tell them make sure your parents

00:50:35 --> 00:50:37

find you to be better than you ever

00:50:37 --> 00:50:40

were Retained the belonging with your parents and

00:50:40 --> 00:50:42

the parents feel you still belong to them

00:50:43 --> 00:50:46

That's beautiful and that'll help your Islam and

00:50:46 --> 00:50:48

even help the your parents as well Yeah,

00:50:48 --> 00:50:49

and trust me.

00:50:49 --> 00:50:51

It's very hard to talk with your parents

00:50:51 --> 00:50:53

about your faith because there's this Maintain the

00:50:53 --> 00:50:56

religion is very difficult in those type of

00:50:56 --> 00:50:58

relationships But still at least make sure that

00:50:58 --> 00:51:02

you show you're still you are a better

00:51:02 --> 00:51:02

person.

00:51:02 --> 00:51:03

It's exam.

00:51:03 --> 00:51:07

I feel like we've only sort of Caught

00:51:07 --> 00:51:08

the tip of the iceberg on this one

00:51:08 --> 00:51:11

and You've really sort of piqued my curiosity

00:51:11 --> 00:51:13

many respects I'm gonna make sure inshallah to

00:51:13 --> 00:51:15

To connect people some of these resources you

00:51:15 --> 00:51:16

mentioned I'm gonna bother you for them and

00:51:16 --> 00:51:18

put them in description of the video for

00:51:18 --> 00:51:20

everyone else I hope this was of benefit

00:51:20 --> 00:51:22

for you to sort of peer into the

00:51:22 --> 00:51:24

mind of Not just the convert but the

00:51:24 --> 00:51:26

sort of the archetype of what conversion looks

00:51:26 --> 00:51:27

like and that there's so much more of

00:51:27 --> 00:51:30

it than then We think May Allah accept

00:51:30 --> 00:51:33

from us and we want your feedback I

00:51:33 --> 00:51:34

know I've said a few things that were

00:51:34 --> 00:51:37

a bit controversial and Allah knows my intention

00:51:37 --> 00:51:39

and also we're open to correction but also

00:51:39 --> 00:51:43

experience Confronts us with the non-ideal.

00:51:43 --> 00:51:44

So when you say it's controversial Jack, but

00:51:44 --> 00:51:48

this I saw this in reality That's the

00:51:48 --> 00:51:50

thing as well is that we don't like

00:51:50 --> 00:51:51

always what we see, but how do we

00:51:51 --> 00:51:52

deal with it?

00:51:52 --> 00:51:52

Correct?

00:51:53 --> 00:51:54

Yeah in a perfect world.

00:51:54 --> 00:51:55

I would not advise these things.

00:51:55 --> 00:51:57

They don't just sound politically incorrect They sound

00:51:57 --> 00:51:59

a little bit painful as well but I'm

00:51:59 --> 00:52:01

trying to offset some very real pains that

00:52:01 --> 00:52:03

I felt pains that he even have pushed

00:52:03 --> 00:52:06

people away from Islam and That is this

00:52:06 --> 00:52:08

is a cliff's edge this is sort of

00:52:08 --> 00:52:09

like Islam and Kufr This is the most

00:52:09 --> 00:52:12

important subject in the universe or should be

00:52:12 --> 00:52:14

and so throw your comments in Of course,

00:52:14 --> 00:52:16

I'm expecting everyone to be polite But be

00:52:16 --> 00:52:19

also candid and also any other subjects that

00:52:19 --> 00:52:21

we need to unpack Comfortable or uncomfortable is

00:52:21 --> 00:52:23

like a little hair on and may Allah

00:52:23 --> 00:52:24

not deprive us of your good work Keep

00:52:24 --> 00:52:26

up the great work doctor And I even

00:52:26 --> 00:52:28

feel like arrogant saying that But we look

00:52:28 --> 00:52:29

forward to benefiting from you on many different

00:52:29 --> 00:52:31

fronts as we have already.

00:52:31 --> 00:52:32

It's like a little hair on Salam alaikum

00:52:32 --> 00:52:34

everybody You

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