Mohammad Elshinawy – Behind the Minbar Podcast S2 E07 – Our Mosques & Mental Health

Mohammad Elshinawy
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The speakers discuss the negative impact of smartphone usage on mental health issues, as well as the lack of mental health counseling for Muslims. They also emphasize the need for more training and education for Muslims to manage mental health issues and create a safe environment for all stakeholders. The speakers stress the importance of understanding mental health and finding meaning in one's behavior, and encourage people to take a leave of work and focus on their mental health. They also mention a therapy called "Logotherapy" that involves rethinking behavior and finding meaning in the context of their Prophet's words. The speakers stress the need for evidence-based evidence in the field of human and peer specialists to provide evidence for their studies and for their work.

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			As-salamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.
		
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			Bismillah, alhamdulillah, wassalatu wassalamu ala rasoolillah.
		
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			Welcome everybody back to another episode of Behind
		
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			the Minbar, Blueprints for a Better Masjid, Mental
		
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			Health Edition.
		
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			Inshallah, today we only bring you qualified people,
		
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			and that's why I brought another New Yorker
		
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			on for this episode, Dr. Ali Sayyid, welcome.
		
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			Alhamdulillah, jazakallah khair.
		
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			Wa alaikum big guy.
		
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			So, aside from being from the greatest city
		
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			on earth, no, that's Mecca, my favorite city,
		
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			no, not that either.
		
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			This is not starting well.
		
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			The place I currently hate containing the people
		
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			I love, mashallah.
		
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			We go way back, me and Dr. Ali
		
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			Sayyid, you went on, mashallah, to finish your
		
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			psychiatry residency in Kansas, and you're back now.
		
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			You serve as the psychiatry fellow, right, at
		
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			Columbia?
		
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			Yes.
		
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			May Allah increase you, and Dr. Ali Sayyid
		
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			is a wealth of many things in the
		
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			mental health space, and a bit of a
		
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			pioneer in the Muslim community, and that's why
		
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			I wanted to get first dibs on him
		
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			with this episode.
		
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			How do we start?
		
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			Let's level set, alright?
		
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			Mental health, and then we'll build to the
		
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			Muslim community, and the masjid's role in this
		
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			whole equation, but where are we as a
		
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			society in modern times?
		
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			I know it's extremely complex, but how are
		
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			people doing, and is the Muslim community any
		
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			different?
		
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			I know, sort of, you like to start
		
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			at data, so let's build from the ground
		
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			up.
		
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			Bismillah.
		
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			Jazakallah khair for having me on the podcast.
		
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			Bismillah walhamdulillah, wa salatu wa salam ala rasoolillah,
		
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			rabbi yashrakh li sadri wa yasir li amri,
		
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			wa ahlul uqdatan min al sani, So, where
		
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			are we in current times?
		
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			There's the good news, and then there's the
		
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			not-so-good news.
		
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			Which one would you like first?
		
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			Oh, man, it's always a hard question.
		
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			You pick.
		
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			Okay, okay.
		
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			So the good news, alhamdulillah, is that the
		
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			stigma related to mental health, since it's now
		
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			being spoken about a lot more, celebrities are
		
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			speaking about mental health, the pop culture, and
		
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			especially here in North America, there's more conversations
		
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			that are happening.
		
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			It is increasing interest in the field of
		
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			mental health, and it's bringing awareness.
		
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			And so that's the good part.
		
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			Suicide Awareness Week, subhanAllah.
		
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			I don't know when the episode is going
		
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			to come out, but it just so happens
		
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			that I got to record this on the
		
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			back end.
		
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			SubhanAllah, mashaAllah.
		
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			Absolutely, absolutely.
		
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			And so there's all of the awareness efforts
		
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			that are going on.
		
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			And mashaAllah, the Muslims are in a better
		
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			place today than we were maybe 20 years
		
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			ago in terms of kind of coming to
		
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			terms with some of these things.
		
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			But I believe it appears that our reaction
		
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			to mental health issues in our communities have
		
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			been reactive instead of proactive.
		
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			We're playing catch-up.
		
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			We're playing catch-up.
		
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			So how bad is it?
		
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			Can I ask that?
		
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			Because of course I can Google, but I
		
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			think people don't know that Googling itself is
		
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			a skill, or AI-ing is a skill.
		
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			Sometimes you get what you're looking for.
		
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			You confirm your own bias.
		
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			But how biased are these numbers in your
		
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			assessment since you've studied this on a deeper
		
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			level?
		
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			Like we hear, I hear, the UK has
		
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			sort of instated a minister of loneliness, and
		
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			so has Japan recently, a year after that.
		
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			And we hear about these sort of, the
		
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			numbers are epidemic proportions, whether it be suicide
		
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			or otherwise.
		
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			So what is the pulse of, like, modern
		
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			societies these days?
		
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			So that's an excellent question.
		
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			I think in terms of the data that
		
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			we're looking at, things have changed since the
		
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			smartphones came out, especially for the youth starting
		
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			in 2007.
		
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			In terms of anxiety, depression, suicide rates in
		
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			the youth and the adolescents have skyrocketed since
		
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			the smartphones came out in the early 2000s,
		
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			and they have successively just progressed into a
		
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			bad space.
		
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			In terms of the data for Muslims, it's
		
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			limited, but the APA has reported that the
		
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			Muslim communities, immigrants as well as U.S.-born,
		
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			are being afflicted with various mental health issues
		
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			based on the data they've collected.
		
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			And the way I see it, if the
		
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			statistics for mental health is one in four
		
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			individual adults have a diagnosable mental illness, and
		
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			we are a part of the American society,
		
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			and so our community, as much as we
		
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			think that this is not us and everyone
		
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			else, we are a microcosm of the larger
		
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			society that we're a part of.
		
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			So Dr. Khaled mentioned an interesting point on
		
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			Friday during the talk.
		
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			He said, I will give anyone $100 if
		
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			you can tell me in a family of
		
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			five people that nobody has a mental illness.
		
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			I was waiting for someone to take him
		
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			up on it.
		
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			Wow, subhanAllah.
		
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			I mean, of course, there's a spectrum.
		
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			Some are disorders, some are actually clinically more
		
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			severe.
		
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			You know, Yaqeen, subhanAllah, also had the Imam
		
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			report.
		
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			We were speaking about it.
		
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			We didn't get a chance to discuss it
		
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			at length before the episode.
		
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			What did that sort of reveal as well?
		
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			Many people may not know.
		
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			I'll try to include it in the description
		
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			of the video for people that want to
		
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			probe it further, but if you can sort
		
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			of summarize it for us because we're transitioning
		
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			to Masajid, right?
		
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			How can Masajid be an asset in pushing
		
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			back or at least mitigating some of this
		
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			mounting pain point of our communities?
		
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			No, absolutely.
		
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			So the APA report suggests that Muslims are
		
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			much more likely to seek out mental health
		
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			care and counseling with the clergy, with the
		
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			Imams in the Masajid as opposed to seeking
		
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			out professional mental health or counseling than other
		
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			faith traditions.
		
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			And so that's one piece of things.
		
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			Most Masajid advertise counseling as one of their
		
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			core services.
		
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			The report from Yaqeen sheds a lot of
		
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			light in terms of when it comes to
		
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			counseling, what is the training of Imams, formal
		
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			training in mental health counseling.
		
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			And the data says that less than 10
		
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			% have a formal degree in mental health
		
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			counseling, like a formal degree with training as
		
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			well as supervision by a supervising counselor.
		
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			Less than 10%.
		
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			Less than 10% of, like, if you
		
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			take the Imams, the youth directors, all of
		
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			the sort of clerical personnel, clergy personnel, put
		
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			it together, less than 10% of them
		
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			have it.
		
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			Like a formal training.
		
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			Which means far less because half the Masajid
		
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			don't have staff to begin with.
		
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			That's another discussion.
		
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			Okay, keep going.
		
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			I'm just trying to, like, contextualize numbers.
		
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			Absolutely.
		
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			And so less than 10% have formal
		
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			training and education and experience in the field
		
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			of mental health.
		
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			The other 90%, there is along the lines
		
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			of no training, reading some books, and then
		
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			attending some seminars, and then having some formal
		
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			classes.
		
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			But essentially the idea is that you have
		
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			the theory of attending seminars, classes, and reading
		
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			books.
		
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			But can someone practice, you know, counseling and
		
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			therapy just by the theoretical knowledge?
		
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			In all of mental health professions, psychiatry, psychology,
		
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			therapy, counseling, we have the didactic portions, but
		
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			we are required to have a certain amount
		
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			of hours of supervision where we get feedback
		
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			from a supervising therapist.
		
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			And we go back and forth, and we
		
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			go back and forth, and it's like an
		
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			apprenticeship.
		
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			And we do that for years until we
		
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			are able to.
		
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			They are able to say, yes, now you
		
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			can practice independently.
		
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			So you're saying people already look to the
		
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			Masajid as a place of trust when they
		
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			are going through these social or emotional stressors
		
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			or periods in their life, but the resource
		
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			is not there, or maybe even the awareness
		
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			that we need to build capacity or resource
		
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			is not there.
		
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			Why do you think that is?
		
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			Why do you think if we were to
		
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			knock out the top three or four or
		
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			five reasons why these are not mainstream discussions
		
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			in our Masajid, or if they are brought
		
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			up, they are dismissed or deprioritized at least?
		
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			Where do you think that comes from?
		
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			You know, subhanAllah, that is a hard question.
		
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			It's a heavy question.
		
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			It's a hard question to answer exactly.
		
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			But before I answer that, so in terms
		
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			of we talked about the formal mental health
		
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			training of imams and the clergy and the
		
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			congregational care leaders in the Masajid.
		
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			Now when the imam report, when they asked
		
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			what are the additional areas of education and
		
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			training that should be out of the top
		
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			five, three of them deal with mental health.
		
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			According to the report, family counseling, mental health
		
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			counseling, as well as contemporary issues that are
		
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			kind of affecting our youth.
		
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			Some of that might be along the lines
		
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			of mental health, LGBTQ and other things that
		
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			are also related peripherally and directly to mental
		
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			health.
		
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			Some are others, but there are also mental
		
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			health issues.
		
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			Self-awareness of the religious leaders that there
		
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			is enough training.
		
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			We don't have the resource and the likes.
		
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			Do you think stigma is a part of
		
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			it?
		
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			Stigma.
		
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			So stigma has always been a part of
		
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			it from the very beginning.
		
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			I think our community, the stigma has layers
		
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			to it.
		
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			So it's not just the stigma of having
		
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			a mental illness, but it's not knowing what
		
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			we don't know and then conflating spiritual issues
		
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			with mental health issues and saying that these
		
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			are one and the same.
		
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			So if I am feeling depressed and low
		
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			and I'm not interested in doing things I'd
		
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			normally do or I'm feeling low or down
		
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			or depressed, I may hear that this may
		
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			be a lack of my connection with Allah,
		
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			my iman, my faith.
		
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			My adhkar are not on point and I'm
		
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			not making enough du'a to Allah.
		
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			And without a doubt all of these things
		
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			are helpful, but we have to understand that
		
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			that is part of the puzzle and not
		
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			the entire picture sometimes.
		
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			No, that's huge.
		
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			I try my best to help reverse that
		
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			trend because it was, of course it's a
		
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			stereotype, but there's always some truth to every
		
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			stereotype that all imams chalk it up to
		
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			lack of faith.
		
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			And so sometimes it could be your faith
		
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			that, you know, destines you to go through
		
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			a certain trial because Allah wants to elevate
		
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			you even higher and He knows that you
		
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			can handle and others can't.
		
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			But, you know, when Allah loves a person,
		
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			He puts them through tests and those tests,
		
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			there's no reason to believe whatsoever.
		
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			Those tests have to be physical tests or
		
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			financial tests only.
		
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			Yaqub a.s. sort of he lost his
		
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			eyesight from weeping over his son for years
		
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			on end and so on and so forth.
		
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			And even, subhanAllah, you think of the validation
		
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			that comes from a hadith like the hadith
		
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			of Talbina.
		
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			You know, it's the Prophet s.a.w.
		
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			said in the hadith of Aisha r.a.
		
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			عليكم بالتلبينة sort of like I prescribe for
		
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			you, I'm recommending for you Talbina.
		
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			Talbina is like boiled oats.
		
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			It's serotonin.
		
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			It's, right?
		
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			Polysaccharides, right?
		
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			Sugar, but hopefully healthier ones, right?
		
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			So you just boil some oats or throw
		
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			some honey on it or barley or wheat.
		
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			The scholars have like different explanations.
		
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			Probably it meant different things to different towns.
		
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			Everyone's got their neighborhood recipe, right?
		
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			But basically Talbina is this porridge of sorts,
		
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			this oatmeal of sorts.
		
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			He said, فإنها تجم الفؤاد وتذهب ببعض الحزن
		
00:12:15 --> 00:12:18
			that it pulls the heart together.
		
00:12:18 --> 00:12:21
			He literally said pulls the heart together and
		
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			does away with some of the sadness.
		
00:12:22 --> 00:12:24
			So this is even like a dietary issue.
		
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			And, you know, when I think of even
		
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			the mental health of even the imams, like,
		
00:12:32 --> 00:12:33
			of course, it doesn't mean that if you're
		
00:12:33 --> 00:12:35
			an imam, you're automatically sort of more religious.
		
00:12:35 --> 00:12:36
			No, it doesn't mean that.
		
00:12:36 --> 00:12:37
			No way.
		
00:12:38 --> 00:12:40
			But relatively in aggregate, you should expect that
		
00:12:40 --> 00:12:42
			those sort of closer to the revelation are
		
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			more built to have resolve, spiritual and psychological
		
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			resolve and resilience and the likes.
		
00:12:48 --> 00:12:51
			But even the imams, they're not able to
		
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			escape modern life and the dietary sort of
		
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			imbalances of modern life and the processed foods
		
00:12:56 --> 00:12:57
			of modern life.
		
00:12:57 --> 00:12:59
			And it's not just about like, you know,
		
00:12:59 --> 00:13:01
			weak faith or the godless era or like
		
00:13:01 --> 00:13:03
			the philosophies, which is a huge part of
		
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			it.
		
00:13:03 --> 00:13:05
			It's the machinery of like the postmodern world.
		
00:13:05 --> 00:13:07
			It's sort of the unhealthy way we live
		
00:13:07 --> 00:13:08
			modern life.
		
00:13:09 --> 00:13:10
			And so the issue of it could be
		
00:13:10 --> 00:13:11
			a sign of your faith.
		
00:13:11 --> 00:13:13
			I think that's really helpful.
		
00:13:13 --> 00:13:15
			I think also to let people know, guys,
		
00:13:15 --> 00:13:18
			just holistic living, just, you know, prevention is
		
00:13:18 --> 00:13:18
			better than the cure.
		
00:13:18 --> 00:13:19
			And even like what do we eat?
		
00:13:19 --> 00:13:20
			You are what you eat.
		
00:13:21 --> 00:13:22
			You eat garbage, your brain is going to
		
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			become mush.
		
00:13:23 --> 00:13:25
			I mean, there's this whole field now of
		
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			nutritional psychiatry, an entire field, which is a
		
00:13:27 --> 00:13:30
			newer field, where we're talking about what we
		
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			consume affects our mental health, what we consume.
		
00:13:35 --> 00:13:37
			And as Muslims, we also know what we
		
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			consume also affects our spirituality, our iman and
		
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			our deen in different ways.
		
00:13:41 --> 00:13:42
			We're not going to feel the same way
		
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			if we eat pizza versus, you know, something
		
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			like a salad, for instance.
		
00:13:47 --> 00:13:48
			Or if you fill your stomach as opposed
		
00:13:48 --> 00:13:50
			to eating for energy.
		
00:13:50 --> 00:13:54
			You know, so subhanAllah, we see that sometimes
		
00:13:54 --> 00:13:55
			it may be due to a spiritual issue.
		
00:13:55 --> 00:13:57
			Sometimes it may be due to a nutritional
		
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			issue.
		
00:13:58 --> 00:14:00
			Sometimes it may be due to a physical
		
00:14:00 --> 00:14:00
			issue.
		
00:14:01 --> 00:14:03
			You know, when the migration happened, a lot
		
00:14:03 --> 00:14:05
			of the companions, subhanAllah, may Allah be pleased
		
00:14:05 --> 00:14:07
			with them all, a lot of them were
		
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			anxious and sad because they were homesick.
		
00:14:11 --> 00:14:14
			And the climate, physically the climate in Medina
		
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			was different than the climate in Mecca, for
		
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			instance.
		
00:14:16 --> 00:14:18
			So physical change, they weren't used to it.
		
00:14:18 --> 00:14:19
			It was an adjustment issue.
		
00:14:20 --> 00:14:21
			And they felt that.
		
00:14:21 --> 00:14:23
			And the Prophet, peace be upon him, he
		
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			recognized that.
		
00:14:24 --> 00:14:26
			And many of the companions, all of them,
		
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			they felt these things.
		
00:14:28 --> 00:14:34
			So physical considerations, emotional considerations, you know, attachment
		
00:14:34 --> 00:14:36
			to their hometown and all of these things,
		
00:14:36 --> 00:14:40
			spiritual concern, nutritional, all of these things, it
		
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			has to come together with the mind, body
		
00:14:42 --> 00:14:43
			and spirit.
		
00:14:44 --> 00:14:46
			And that would probably make them, and I've
		
00:14:46 --> 00:14:48
			heard, I know it's disputed, but I've heard
		
00:14:48 --> 00:14:51
			also studies that have tried to argue, I'm
		
00:14:51 --> 00:14:52
			not, above my pay grade, I'm not trying
		
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			to like lean this way or that way,
		
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			tried to argue that this factor of like
		
00:14:57 --> 00:15:01
			how much belonging versus misfit I feel as
		
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			a Muslim in wider society would actually set
		
00:15:04 --> 00:15:09
			up a Muslim for heightened challenges because I'm
		
00:15:09 --> 00:15:11
			the scattered 1%, right?
		
00:15:11 --> 00:15:13
			And so I may even be more prone
		
00:15:13 --> 00:15:17
			to falling into these difficult places, whether it
		
00:15:17 --> 00:15:19
			be suicide rates or otherwise, may Allah protect
		
00:15:19 --> 00:15:19
			everyone.
		
00:15:19 --> 00:15:19
			I mean.
		
00:15:21 --> 00:15:24
			But this, we're not even saying anymore that
		
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			we are not insulated and we could become
		
00:15:26 --> 00:15:30
			like wider society, that we could even be
		
00:15:30 --> 00:15:32
			more challenged in wider society in certain respects
		
00:15:32 --> 00:15:34
			because you said it's like, is this, do
		
00:15:34 --> 00:15:34
			I belong here or not?
		
00:15:35 --> 00:15:35
			Absolutely.
		
00:15:35 --> 00:15:38
			Am I oriented, grounded, welcome, welcomed?
		
00:15:38 --> 00:15:39
			Absolutely.
		
00:15:39 --> 00:15:42
			So the data on Islamophobia has come out,
		
00:15:42 --> 00:15:45
			they've been tracking since 9-11 and the
		
00:15:45 --> 00:15:47
			data from the APA that's reported says that
		
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			we are experiencing discrimination at the airports, sometimes
		
00:15:53 --> 00:15:58
			with law enforcement, sometimes bullying, just different types
		
00:15:58 --> 00:16:01
			of things, much more than other demographics.
		
00:16:02 --> 00:16:04
			And so I've worked with some of the
		
00:16:04 --> 00:16:07
			youth that just finished high school, they go
		
00:16:07 --> 00:16:10
			to college, they're like, they're very anxious because
		
00:16:10 --> 00:16:13
			they don't feel like they belong after spending
		
00:16:13 --> 00:16:16
			an entire time in Islamic school, they step
		
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			into college and they're very anxious and they're
		
00:16:19 --> 00:16:23
			having adjustment issues and integrating and assimilating and
		
00:16:23 --> 00:16:24
			kind of navigating these.
		
00:16:24 --> 00:16:28
			So Islamophobia has, now we're actually proposing an
		
00:16:28 --> 00:16:31
			APA session for the next APA conference in
		
00:16:31 --> 00:16:36
			LA, inshallah, inshallah gets accepted, saying that Islamophobia
		
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			is a structural determinant of mental health and
		
00:16:39 --> 00:16:41
			a social determinant of mental health for Muslims.
		
00:16:42 --> 00:16:45
			If we perceive that we don't belong and
		
00:16:45 --> 00:16:46
			if we feel this way, if we're made
		
00:16:46 --> 00:16:48
			to feel this way, it will affect our
		
00:16:48 --> 00:16:51
			moods, our mental health, anxiety, depression, all of
		
00:16:51 --> 00:16:54
			these things, we're at a higher risk than
		
00:16:54 --> 00:16:55
			others.
		
00:16:56 --> 00:16:58
			So how, when you speak to communities, I
		
00:16:58 --> 00:16:59
			do want to get back to the point,
		
00:16:59 --> 00:17:01
			I think it's probably the most practical of
		
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			all and we're going to have to unpack
		
00:17:02 --> 00:17:06
			it, which is this notion of like, because
		
00:17:06 --> 00:17:07
			where do we get from here to where
		
00:17:07 --> 00:17:07
			we want to be?
		
00:17:07 --> 00:17:10
			I really want to figure out a way
		
00:17:10 --> 00:17:13
			to discuss like expert or bust, that whole
		
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			notion of like, okay, the imams may not
		
00:17:15 --> 00:17:17
			exist and if they exist, they likely don't
		
00:17:17 --> 00:17:19
			have the training, if they have the training,
		
00:17:19 --> 00:17:19
			likely don't have the time.
		
00:17:20 --> 00:17:22
			So it's just like there's a vacuum here.
		
00:17:22 --> 00:17:24
			At the same time, we're not going to
		
00:17:24 --> 00:17:27
			hire five psychiatrists for every masjid right now,
		
00:17:27 --> 00:17:29
			at least not in the next 24 to
		
00:17:29 --> 00:17:31
			48 hours or years.
		
00:17:32 --> 00:17:34
			So I do want to talk about like
		
00:17:34 --> 00:17:37
			triaging and bridging the gap.
		
00:17:37 --> 00:17:39
			Well put, jazakallah khairan.
		
00:17:39 --> 00:17:42
			But when you speak to communities, as you've
		
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			been traveling and doing, how do you help
		
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			them not feel alienated from this subject?
		
00:17:50 --> 00:17:52
			Like our tradition, right?
		
00:17:52 --> 00:17:54
			We were at one point sort of the
		
00:17:54 --> 00:17:56
			Maristans and what's your approach?
		
00:17:57 --> 00:17:58
			I don't want to sort of put words
		
00:17:58 --> 00:17:58
			in your mouth.
		
00:17:58 --> 00:18:02
			So, you know, it's initiatives like the ones
		
00:18:02 --> 00:18:06
			that these masjids here, Malv and IECPA, all
		
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			you brothers, may Allah bless you all, are
		
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			recognizing that there is a gap.
		
00:18:10 --> 00:18:11
			So I think the most important thing is
		
00:18:11 --> 00:18:13
			understanding there's an issue.
		
00:18:14 --> 00:18:16
			The imams have said they need additional training.
		
00:18:16 --> 00:18:19
			In the Yaqeen report, they said the most
		
00:18:19 --> 00:18:22
			important areas of education and training, three out
		
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			of five are all related to mental health.
		
00:18:24 --> 00:18:26
			So they understand that there is a need,
		
00:18:26 --> 00:18:28
			but there's no time to get a master's
		
00:18:28 --> 00:18:31
			degree, you know, with all the duties of
		
00:18:31 --> 00:18:32
			an imam and new directors.
		
00:18:32 --> 00:18:34
			There's no time to get a graduate degree
		
00:18:34 --> 00:18:34
			in counseling.
		
00:18:34 --> 00:18:37
			It's not practical and it's not an easy
		
00:18:37 --> 00:18:37
			fix.
		
00:18:38 --> 00:18:40
			But once we understand and we identify the
		
00:18:40 --> 00:18:42
			elephant in the room and now we can
		
00:18:42 --> 00:18:45
			actually bring the stakeholders together, we have the
		
00:18:45 --> 00:18:47
			imams, we have the mental health professionals, and
		
00:18:47 --> 00:18:50
			we have the community that's being affected and
		
00:18:50 --> 00:18:52
			we make a safe space for all of
		
00:18:52 --> 00:18:54
			us to come to a table and say,
		
00:18:54 --> 00:18:56
			how do we all work together to bridge
		
00:18:56 --> 00:18:56
			the gap?
		
00:18:57 --> 00:18:59
			So I'm hearing, I'm part of a national
		
00:18:59 --> 00:19:02
			Muslim mental health group where they say, oh,
		
00:19:02 --> 00:19:05
			in Virginia, we have once monthly case collaborations
		
00:19:05 --> 00:19:10
			with the masajid and mental health professionals will
		
00:19:10 --> 00:19:14
			speak, you know, just actively collaborate like a
		
00:19:14 --> 00:19:16
			collaborative care model with the masjid and the
		
00:19:16 --> 00:19:19
			imam and talk about specific cases and do
		
00:19:19 --> 00:19:22
			case consultations and say that, okay, this is,
		
00:19:22 --> 00:19:26
			you know, an emergent issue, urgent issue or
		
00:19:26 --> 00:19:27
			something that can be handled in this type
		
00:19:27 --> 00:19:28
			of way.
		
00:19:28 --> 00:19:29
			You know, these are our recommendations.
		
00:19:29 --> 00:19:34
			So these are basically serving in like a
		
00:19:35 --> 00:19:36
			consulting capacity?
		
00:19:36 --> 00:19:37
			Yes, consulting capacity.
		
00:19:37 --> 00:19:37
			Okay.
		
00:19:38 --> 00:19:38
			All right.
		
00:19:38 --> 00:19:38
			That's great.
		
00:19:39 --> 00:19:39
			Something structured.
		
00:19:40 --> 00:19:42
			That'll help normalize, streamline a little bit of
		
00:19:42 --> 00:19:43
			this.
		
00:19:43 --> 00:19:46
			And because there's been friction between, and there
		
00:19:46 --> 00:19:48
			shouldn't be as Muslims, we know that mental
		
00:19:48 --> 00:19:51
			health and psychiatry came from Iqra, right?
		
00:19:52 --> 00:19:54
			Iqra wa rabbuka al-akram Allathee allama bilqalam
		
00:19:54 --> 00:19:55
			It's all from Allah.
		
00:19:55 --> 00:19:58
			Whether it's psychiatry, whether it's, you know, the
		
00:19:58 --> 00:20:00
			sacred knowledge, it's all from Allah.
		
00:20:01 --> 00:20:03
			And so this disconnect, and there are reasons
		
00:20:03 --> 00:20:04
			for it.
		
00:20:04 --> 00:20:05
			There are valid reasons for it.
		
00:20:05 --> 00:20:07
			There's another side to this story as well.
		
00:20:08 --> 00:20:11
			However, if we can come together to collaborate,
		
00:20:12 --> 00:20:14
			the mental health professional need the imams just
		
00:20:14 --> 00:20:18
			as much, if not more, than the imams
		
00:20:18 --> 00:20:20
			may need some, you know, some of that
		
00:20:20 --> 00:20:22
			professional insight.
		
00:20:22 --> 00:20:26
			So from the perspective of how can the
		
00:20:26 --> 00:20:30
			imams help the mental health professionals, we have,
		
00:20:30 --> 00:20:32
			when the Muslim patients come in therapy and
		
00:20:32 --> 00:20:35
			other things, many of them, some of them,
		
00:20:35 --> 00:20:37
			they say, my deen is important to me.
		
00:20:38 --> 00:20:40
			I want a therapy approach that is sensitive
		
00:20:40 --> 00:20:41
			to my tradition.
		
00:20:42 --> 00:20:46
			And we as therapists and mental health professionals
		
00:20:46 --> 00:20:47
			are trained in secular psychology.
		
00:20:48 --> 00:20:51
			You know, psyche means soul, the Latin word.
		
00:20:51 --> 00:20:53
			They suck the soul out of it.
		
00:20:53 --> 00:20:55
			And now we're left with secular psychology.
		
00:20:56 --> 00:20:58
			But originally, it's the study of the soul.
		
00:20:58 --> 00:21:00
			All the scholars of the past, you know,
		
00:21:00 --> 00:21:04
			Ibn al-Razi, al-Balkhi, you know, Sheikh
		
00:21:04 --> 00:21:07
			Imam Ghazali, you know, Ibn Qayyim, all of
		
00:21:07 --> 00:21:09
			them, when they wrote their books, all of
		
00:21:09 --> 00:21:11
			them talked about the soul because that is
		
00:21:11 --> 00:21:12
			what psychology is all about.
		
00:21:12 --> 00:21:14
			But we've kind of separated the two.
		
00:21:15 --> 00:21:19
			And now when sometimes when the imams and
		
00:21:19 --> 00:21:23
			one of our very good friends, he said,
		
00:21:23 --> 00:21:27
			please mention to them that, you know, there's
		
00:21:27 --> 00:21:29
			another side of the issue is when the
		
00:21:29 --> 00:21:33
			imams are referring the community members for counseling,
		
00:21:33 --> 00:21:37
			couples counseling or individual family counseling, that these
		
00:21:37 --> 00:21:41
			therapists, even if they're Muslims, Islam is part
		
00:21:41 --> 00:21:43
			of their like, what is their, we have
		
00:21:43 --> 00:21:44
			to kind of vet them in a way
		
00:21:45 --> 00:21:48
			that it's targeted to be sensitive to the
		
00:21:48 --> 00:21:51
			needs of the Muslims with Islam as the
		
00:21:51 --> 00:21:51
			foundation.
		
00:21:53 --> 00:21:54
			Keep going.
		
00:21:54 --> 00:21:55
			Complete your thought.
		
00:21:55 --> 00:21:58
			and so because we can, there's harm that's
		
00:21:58 --> 00:21:59
			been done and I've heard of personal stories
		
00:21:59 --> 00:22:03
			where couples have gone into therapy and have
		
00:22:03 --> 00:22:06
			been told, okay, this is a problem.
		
00:22:06 --> 00:22:10
			This is causing someone harm and ends up
		
00:22:10 --> 00:22:10
			in divorce.
		
00:22:10 --> 00:22:10
			Yeah.
		
00:22:11 --> 00:22:14
			And so there is this hedonistic type of
		
00:22:14 --> 00:22:19
			secular perspective in terms of psychology.
		
00:22:19 --> 00:22:22
			Anything that is, gives us pleasure, makes us
		
00:22:22 --> 00:22:25
			happy is what we should go for.
		
00:22:25 --> 00:22:29
			Anything that gives us grief, you know, hopeless,
		
00:22:29 --> 00:22:31
			you know, anything that makes us angry, sad,
		
00:22:32 --> 00:22:34
			stressed out, you know, there's a whole movement
		
00:22:34 --> 00:22:35
			of no contact of parents.
		
00:22:36 --> 00:22:37
			Don't contact parents.
		
00:22:37 --> 00:22:39
			And so as Muslims, You owe yourself better.
		
00:22:39 --> 00:22:40
			Don't speak to your parents.
		
00:22:41 --> 00:22:41
			Yes.
		
00:22:41 --> 00:22:43
			You know, like your parents cause you harm,
		
00:22:43 --> 00:22:45
			cut them off completely.
		
00:22:45 --> 00:22:47
			And if someone causes you harm, cut them
		
00:22:47 --> 00:22:47
			off.
		
00:22:48 --> 00:22:50
			And so because it's not rooted in the
		
00:22:50 --> 00:22:51
			Islamic paradigm.
		
00:22:51 --> 00:22:54
			And of course, if parents or siblings or
		
00:22:54 --> 00:22:55
			people are a source of trauma and stress,
		
00:22:56 --> 00:22:57
			yes, that's concerning.
		
00:22:57 --> 00:23:00
			But in the Islamic paradigm, there are ways
		
00:23:00 --> 00:23:01
			of kind of balancing.
		
00:23:02 --> 00:23:02
			For sure.
		
00:23:02 --> 00:23:06
			And so there's Dr. Just the last.
		
00:23:07 --> 00:23:07
			No, no, please.
		
00:23:08 --> 00:23:11
			She said the secular therapy, you know, you
		
00:23:11 --> 00:23:14
			have the junk food and then you have
		
00:23:14 --> 00:23:14
			wholesome food.
		
00:23:15 --> 00:23:17
			And I'm not, you know, I don't want
		
00:23:17 --> 00:23:19
			to get in trouble with a bunch of
		
00:23:19 --> 00:23:19
			health professionals.
		
00:23:19 --> 00:23:23
			But any type of therapy that's devoid for
		
00:23:23 --> 00:23:26
			Muslims, that's devoid of Islam as a foundation
		
00:23:28 --> 00:23:31
			will be a band-aid and it's not
		
00:23:31 --> 00:23:31
			wholesome.
		
00:23:32 --> 00:23:33
			It is junk therapy.
		
00:23:33 --> 00:23:36
			No, that's exactly what I was going to
		
00:23:36 --> 00:23:38
			interject with, that this is not sort of
		
00:23:38 --> 00:23:41
			a lack of appreciation or intent to slight
		
00:23:41 --> 00:23:43
			or act like sort of the religious sciences
		
00:23:45 --> 00:23:46
			are intended.
		
00:23:46 --> 00:23:47
			There's intended to guide everything, but they're not
		
00:23:47 --> 00:23:48
			intended to inform.
		
00:23:48 --> 00:23:51
			Allah taught us the importance of learning also,
		
00:23:52 --> 00:23:54
			importance of the empirical data and sort of
		
00:23:54 --> 00:23:57
			like experience and gathering all of that is
		
00:23:57 --> 00:23:58
			grounded in our deen.
		
00:23:58 --> 00:23:59
			And that's why the renaissance is the health
		
00:23:59 --> 00:24:02
			renaissance is happening in the Muslim world when
		
00:24:02 --> 00:24:04
			they paid attention to Islam more so than
		
00:24:04 --> 00:24:06
			when they accepted Islam as some sort of
		
00:24:06 --> 00:24:07
			like obscure cultural identity.
		
00:24:08 --> 00:24:11
			But back to what the interjection was going
		
00:24:11 --> 00:24:14
			to be is that after the disclaimer, we're
		
00:24:14 --> 00:24:15
			not trying to disparage.
		
00:24:16 --> 00:24:17
			At the same time, we have to accept
		
00:24:17 --> 00:24:20
			that there are certain givens in mainstream mental
		
00:24:20 --> 00:24:21
			health that could be of what adds to
		
00:24:21 --> 00:24:22
			the stigma.
		
00:24:22 --> 00:24:24
			Like this is some sort of like kafir
		
00:24:24 --> 00:24:24
			worldview.
		
00:24:25 --> 00:24:26
			And there's some truth to this.
		
00:24:26 --> 00:24:26
			Let's just accept it.
		
00:24:27 --> 00:24:29
			There is a rejection of God premise that
		
00:24:29 --> 00:24:30
			underlies a lot of these notions.
		
00:24:31 --> 00:24:33
			Premises of like you are the master of
		
00:24:33 --> 00:24:34
			your own destiny.
		
00:24:34 --> 00:24:35
			Well, first of all, that's wrong.
		
00:24:36 --> 00:24:37
			You don't own yourself or your destiny.
		
00:24:38 --> 00:24:40
			Second of all, it's harmful because if you
		
00:24:40 --> 00:24:42
			actually believe that, that also means the failures
		
00:24:42 --> 00:24:44
			was entirely my failure because my destiny is
		
00:24:44 --> 00:24:45
			in my hands.
		
00:24:45 --> 00:24:49
			And that's like self-abuse because why would
		
00:24:49 --> 00:24:49
			you shoulder that?
		
00:24:50 --> 00:24:53
			It is liberating to know that only Allah
		
00:24:53 --> 00:24:56
			knew that I didn't have and therefore I'm
		
00:24:56 --> 00:24:58
			not going to guilt myself or kill myself
		
00:24:58 --> 00:25:00
			over something that the pens have been lifted
		
00:25:00 --> 00:25:01
			and the pages have dried with.
		
00:25:01 --> 00:25:02
			It has a bigger wisdom.
		
00:25:02 --> 00:25:04
			This is not a fail in the absolute
		
00:25:04 --> 00:25:04
			sense of the word.
		
00:25:05 --> 00:25:07
			A rock bottom could be a place where
		
00:25:07 --> 00:25:09
			I build a good foundation off of.
		
00:25:09 --> 00:25:11
			There's always optimism when you realize that, oh,
		
00:25:11 --> 00:25:13
			I'm just here to do what I can
		
00:25:13 --> 00:25:14
			with what I have.
		
00:25:15 --> 00:25:17
			And then there's the whole moral element of
		
00:25:17 --> 00:25:18
			this as well that I'm not going to
		
00:25:18 --> 00:25:18
			be cutting corners.
		
00:25:18 --> 00:25:19
			I'm not going to be strong-arming.
		
00:25:20 --> 00:25:22
			Band-aid is an excellent metaphor for it.
		
00:25:23 --> 00:25:24
			You're just sort of, you get a coping
		
00:25:24 --> 00:25:26
			mechanism, a breathing technique.
		
00:25:26 --> 00:25:27
			And again, I know I'm being a little
		
00:25:27 --> 00:25:29
			bit sort of reductionist here.
		
00:25:29 --> 00:25:32
			But still, you can't explain to me why
		
00:25:32 --> 00:25:35
			I'm here, why is this meaningful, why I
		
00:25:35 --> 00:25:37
			should put up with it, why I shouldn't
		
00:25:37 --> 00:25:37
			blame myself.
		
00:25:37 --> 00:25:39
			There's a whole lot of whys and the
		
00:25:39 --> 00:25:40
			why is more important than the how.
		
00:25:40 --> 00:25:43
			So our therapy doesn't address whys.
		
00:25:43 --> 00:25:45
			The secular therapy does not address any why.
		
00:25:45 --> 00:25:45
			How can it?
		
00:25:46 --> 00:25:47
			It's materialistically grounded.
		
00:25:47 --> 00:25:49
			And the problem with that is, Viktor Frankl,
		
00:25:50 --> 00:25:52
			one of the German psychiatrists during the times
		
00:25:52 --> 00:25:54
			of the Holocaust, he wrote a book and
		
00:25:54 --> 00:25:55
			his therapy was called Logotherapy.
		
00:25:56 --> 00:25:56
			In Search of Meaning.
		
00:25:56 --> 00:25:58
			In the book, Man's Search for Meaning.
		
00:25:58 --> 00:26:00
			And the entire therapy is based on the
		
00:26:00 --> 00:26:03
			premise that human beings are, we seek meaning.
		
00:26:04 --> 00:26:06
			If we don't, if we cannot find meaning,
		
00:26:06 --> 00:26:08
			it will harm us in anything.
		
00:26:09 --> 00:26:11
			And what I love about our Deen is
		
00:26:11 --> 00:26:16
			that everything, every calamity, every issue has this
		
00:26:16 --> 00:26:20
			cognitive reframing and it's all with the akhirah
		
00:26:20 --> 00:26:21
			perspective, viewpoint.
		
00:26:22 --> 00:26:25
			So the narration, and you will have all
		
00:26:25 --> 00:26:27
			the references, the narration that says that a
		
00:26:27 --> 00:26:29
			believer is not harmed physically, mentally, emotionally, even
		
00:26:29 --> 00:26:33
			a prick of a thorn, except that his
		
00:26:33 --> 00:26:34
			sins are expiated.
		
00:26:35 --> 00:26:39
			So we're taking a problem and we're reframing
		
00:26:39 --> 00:26:40
			how we should think about it.
		
00:26:40 --> 00:26:43
			When Allah loves, just as you mentioned a
		
00:26:43 --> 00:26:45
			little while ago, when Allah loves someone, He
		
00:26:45 --> 00:26:45
			tests them.
		
00:26:46 --> 00:26:49
			We're talking about a test, but now if
		
00:26:49 --> 00:26:51
			we reframe that, this is perhaps a sign
		
00:26:51 --> 00:26:53
			of the love of Allah.
		
00:26:53 --> 00:26:54
			It's beautiful.
		
00:26:54 --> 00:26:57
			You know, we have a calamity, it's Allah
		
00:26:57 --> 00:26:58
			says in the Quran, there are those who
		
00:26:58 --> 00:27:01
			say, إِنَّا لِلَّهِ وَإِنَّا لِلَّهِ رَاجِعُونَ This is
		
00:27:01 --> 00:27:05
			so profound, whatever calamity we're in, it doesn't
		
00:27:05 --> 00:27:08
			matter what it is, if we can internalize
		
00:27:08 --> 00:27:10
			the meaning of this phrase that we do
		
00:27:10 --> 00:27:12
			not belong in this world, whatever is going
		
00:27:12 --> 00:27:16
			on, this is not the end all be
		
00:27:16 --> 00:27:17
			all, this is a test.
		
00:27:17 --> 00:27:19
			I do not belong here, I will not
		
00:27:19 --> 00:27:20
			always stay here, I will go back to
		
00:27:20 --> 00:27:20
			Allah.
		
00:27:21 --> 00:27:22
			And if we can internalize this, we just
		
00:27:22 --> 00:27:25
			reframe the whole situation and we've zoomed out.
		
00:27:25 --> 00:27:26
			That is the core issue, zoomed out of
		
00:27:26 --> 00:27:28
			sort of the periphery or secondary issues.
		
00:27:28 --> 00:27:29
			Zoomed out.
		
00:27:29 --> 00:27:29
			Beautiful.
		
00:27:30 --> 00:27:33
			So to bring everyone back, this is why
		
00:27:33 --> 00:27:35
			we're talking about the interdependence of, we need
		
00:27:35 --> 00:27:38
			the professionals to bring us in because we're
		
00:27:38 --> 00:27:39
			going to cause a blunder if we act
		
00:27:39 --> 00:27:40
			sort of unilaterally.
		
00:27:42 --> 00:27:45
			And the converse is also true, we need
		
00:27:45 --> 00:27:45
			each other.
		
00:27:45 --> 00:27:48
			We need each other and if we can
		
00:27:48 --> 00:27:51
			come together and come up with collaborative care
		
00:27:51 --> 00:27:54
			model where we have the mental health professional
		
00:27:54 --> 00:27:56
			and the imams and we talk about, hey,
		
00:27:56 --> 00:27:59
			just as you, we can help you with
		
00:27:59 --> 00:28:01
			some consulting for mental health, when the patients
		
00:28:01 --> 00:28:03
			come to us, I don't know, I've never
		
00:28:03 --> 00:28:06
			trained in Islam, I have not studied in
		
00:28:06 --> 00:28:07
			a seminary.
		
00:28:07 --> 00:28:10
			If you could guide me with some basics
		
00:28:10 --> 00:28:11
			so I know that what I'm telling them
		
00:28:11 --> 00:28:12
			is Islamically sound.
		
00:28:13 --> 00:28:18
			So consulting the experts as the Prophet ﷺ
		
00:28:18 --> 00:28:20
			taught us, you know best your worldly affairs
		
00:28:20 --> 00:28:22
			and an element of this is worldly, worldly
		
00:28:22 --> 00:28:23
			dynamics, right?
		
00:28:23 --> 00:28:25
			Whether it's the dynamics of modern life, the
		
00:28:25 --> 00:28:28
			dynamics of modern dietary, whatever we're going to
		
00:28:28 --> 00:28:28
			talk about.
		
00:28:29 --> 00:28:31
			And so we're going to consult the experts,
		
00:28:31 --> 00:28:33
			try to include them on the boards, make
		
00:28:33 --> 00:28:35
			these conversations normal, right?
		
00:28:35 --> 00:28:36
			Normalize them in our community.
		
00:28:36 --> 00:28:38
			Okay, now they're normalized.
		
00:28:38 --> 00:28:39
			How do we bridge the gap?
		
00:28:39 --> 00:28:43
			Because there's the financial component, there's the bandwidth
		
00:28:43 --> 00:28:47
			component, there's the imams themselves who may have
		
00:28:47 --> 00:28:48
			their own mental health challenges with sort of
		
00:28:48 --> 00:28:50
			the overwork and the overload.
		
00:28:51 --> 00:28:55
			What do you see is the call of
		
00:28:55 --> 00:28:55
			the hour?
		
00:28:56 --> 00:28:58
			I think the call is in order for
		
00:28:58 --> 00:29:02
			any culture to change, so for Muslims, the
		
00:29:02 --> 00:29:04
			culture, the way we think about mental health,
		
00:29:05 --> 00:29:08
			in order for any culture change to happen
		
00:29:08 --> 00:29:11
			or a changing of viewpoints, it's not a
		
00:29:11 --> 00:29:13
			technical solution.
		
00:29:13 --> 00:29:14
			It's an adaptive solution.
		
00:29:15 --> 00:29:18
			And an adaptive framework is where we identify
		
00:29:18 --> 00:29:20
			the problem together.
		
00:29:22 --> 00:29:24
			We, you know, the stakeholders do come together
		
00:29:24 --> 00:29:28
			and have meetings and then we find, we
		
00:29:28 --> 00:29:29
			build alliances.
		
00:29:29 --> 00:29:31
			There are going to be, there are professionals,
		
00:29:31 --> 00:29:33
			Dr. Khamil, Allah bless Dr. Khaled, there are
		
00:29:33 --> 00:29:36
			going to be professionals in the communities that
		
00:29:36 --> 00:29:38
			will have, or you know, Allah will put
		
00:29:38 --> 00:29:40
			people in the, and we bring these people
		
00:29:40 --> 00:29:43
			together and then we come up with, let's
		
00:29:43 --> 00:29:44
			come up with a model.
		
00:29:44 --> 00:29:45
			What works?
		
00:29:45 --> 00:29:45
			Okay, we're busy.
		
00:29:45 --> 00:29:46
			Can we do this once a month?
		
00:29:47 --> 00:29:50
			And then we do a pilot program and
		
00:29:50 --> 00:29:52
			then we assess and adjust and adapt along
		
00:29:52 --> 00:29:53
			the way.
		
00:29:53 --> 00:29:55
			And these exist in almost every community.
		
00:29:55 --> 00:30:00
			I mean, the Muslims have a disproportionately higher
		
00:30:00 --> 00:30:04
			presence in the health industry than their sort
		
00:30:04 --> 00:30:05
			of population count.
		
00:30:05 --> 00:30:07
			Like if we're 1%, we may have 1
		
00:30:07 --> 00:30:09
			.5% of the doctors or something like
		
00:30:09 --> 00:30:09
			this.
		
00:30:10 --> 00:30:11
			I only know New York City numbers.
		
00:30:11 --> 00:30:12
			I don't know national numbers.
		
00:30:13 --> 00:30:16
			But in addition to that, on the institutional
		
00:30:16 --> 00:30:19
			level, can you share with us some resources,
		
00:30:19 --> 00:30:23
			institutes out there, khair or otherwise, what exists?
		
00:30:24 --> 00:30:25
			So I would put ourselves last.
		
00:30:25 --> 00:30:25
			We are based.
		
00:30:25 --> 00:30:26
			Whatever it is.
		
00:30:26 --> 00:30:28
			Random sample.
		
00:30:28 --> 00:30:28
			Just give us something.
		
00:30:28 --> 00:30:33
			There are great initiatives being done or that
		
00:30:33 --> 00:30:33
			are in.
		
00:30:33 --> 00:30:37
			So there's a renaissance or reemergence of Islamic
		
00:30:37 --> 00:30:39
			psychology and we see that.
		
00:30:40 --> 00:30:41
			We have Maristan.
		
00:30:41 --> 00:30:42
			Big one is Khalil Center.
		
00:30:43 --> 00:30:45
			They have branches in New York and Chicago
		
00:30:45 --> 00:30:49
			and San Francisco and Canada and other places.
		
00:30:49 --> 00:30:52
			We have the Maristan based with Dr. Rania
		
00:30:52 --> 00:30:54
			Awad based out of San Francisco.
		
00:30:57 --> 00:31:00
			There's different institutions out there, but the idea
		
00:31:00 --> 00:31:02
			is we don't have enough.
		
00:31:02 --> 00:31:04
			We have efforts.
		
00:31:04 --> 00:31:07
			We need to bolster and support these efforts
		
00:31:07 --> 00:31:11
			and then we need to kind of have
		
00:31:11 --> 00:31:14
			similar, not duplicating, but depending on we need
		
00:31:14 --> 00:31:16
			to build a capacity and help them.
		
00:31:17 --> 00:31:19
			So you introduced me to the term peer
		
00:31:19 --> 00:31:19
			specialist.
		
00:31:19 --> 00:31:21
			I had never heard it before you brought
		
00:31:21 --> 00:31:26
			it along as sort of like the, you
		
00:31:26 --> 00:31:26
			frame it.
		
00:31:27 --> 00:31:28
			So peer specialist.
		
00:31:28 --> 00:31:30
			I'm still getting my grasp on what it
		
00:31:30 --> 00:31:33
			looks like, how we can sort of create
		
00:31:33 --> 00:31:36
			to them in our communities and the likes.
		
00:31:36 --> 00:31:37
			What are they?
		
00:31:37 --> 00:31:39
			So I will say there are peer specialists
		
00:31:39 --> 00:31:41
			in every Muslim community.
		
00:31:41 --> 00:31:42
			They just don't know they're a peer specialist.
		
00:31:43 --> 00:31:43
			Nice.
		
00:31:43 --> 00:31:46
			Because they may not know what they've been
		
00:31:46 --> 00:31:49
			doing, you know, just behind the scenes with
		
00:31:49 --> 00:31:52
			family, relatives, friends, is peer work.
		
00:31:53 --> 00:31:56
			Peer specialists, certified peer specialists, CPS, are mental
		
00:31:56 --> 00:32:00
			health professionals who have a lived experience with
		
00:32:00 --> 00:32:02
			mental illness or behavioral challenges or substance use
		
00:32:03 --> 00:32:06
			that Allah has blessed to recover in terms
		
00:32:06 --> 00:32:06
			of Muslims here.
		
00:32:07 --> 00:32:08
			Allah has blessed them to recover.
		
00:32:10 --> 00:32:11
			Even if they're not Muslims.
		
00:32:11 --> 00:32:12
			Even if they're not Muslims.
		
00:32:12 --> 00:32:12
			Right.
		
00:32:12 --> 00:32:13
			But we're talking in our communities.
		
00:32:14 --> 00:32:14
			Right.
		
00:32:15 --> 00:32:17
			So they're in recovery.
		
00:32:18 --> 00:32:22
			Their symptoms are not causing them dysfunction.
		
00:32:22 --> 00:32:23
			They're functioning.
		
00:32:23 --> 00:32:24
			They're progressing.
		
00:32:24 --> 00:32:25
			They're doing well.
		
00:32:26 --> 00:32:28
			And now they go through a credential training.
		
00:32:28 --> 00:32:31
			Every state has a credential training for certified
		
00:32:31 --> 00:32:32
			peer specialists.
		
00:32:32 --> 00:32:32
			So this is a thing.
		
00:32:32 --> 00:32:33
			All 50 states.
		
00:32:33 --> 00:32:34
			All 50 states.
		
00:32:34 --> 00:32:34
			Nice.
		
00:32:35 --> 00:32:38
			And the credentialing body gives a training.
		
00:32:39 --> 00:32:42
			It could be certain they're different in terms
		
00:32:42 --> 00:32:44
			of time commitment for different trainings.
		
00:32:44 --> 00:32:46
			But you go through a systematic training at
		
00:32:46 --> 00:32:48
			the end of which you take an exam.
		
00:32:49 --> 00:32:54
			And then you do your hours in supervision.
		
00:32:54 --> 00:32:56
			And then you become a certified peer specialist.
		
00:32:56 --> 00:33:02
			The idea is that we use our own
		
00:33:02 --> 00:33:02
			lived experience.
		
00:33:04 --> 00:33:07
			We use our own lived experience.
		
00:33:08 --> 00:33:10
			Not as a doctor to a patient, as
		
00:33:10 --> 00:33:11
			a therapist to a client.
		
00:33:12 --> 00:33:14
			It's more of like I'm a peer.
		
00:33:15 --> 00:33:17
			You're going through something and I've been through
		
00:33:17 --> 00:33:18
			something.
		
00:33:18 --> 00:33:20
			And this is what helped me overcome my
		
00:33:20 --> 00:33:21
			obstacles.
		
00:33:21 --> 00:33:24
			Let's figure out what are the obstacles that
		
00:33:24 --> 00:33:25
			are holding you back from living the best
		
00:33:25 --> 00:33:26
			version of yourself.
		
00:33:26 --> 00:33:29
			Let's work on them together as peers, as
		
00:33:29 --> 00:33:30
			brothers, as sisters.
		
00:33:31 --> 00:33:32
			Are these like...
		
00:33:32 --> 00:33:34
			I don't want to make the wrong analogy.
		
00:33:34 --> 00:33:36
			Are these like support groups that meet regularly?
		
00:33:37 --> 00:33:38
			Are these like one-to-one buddy groups?
		
00:33:38 --> 00:33:42
			Are these like ambassadors with the MHPs, mental
		
00:33:42 --> 00:33:42
			health professionals?
		
00:33:43 --> 00:33:44
			All of the above.
		
00:33:44 --> 00:33:44
			All of them.
		
00:33:45 --> 00:33:47
			So peer works...
		
00:33:48 --> 00:33:51
			So you have individual certified peer specialists that
		
00:33:51 --> 00:33:53
			work one-on-one with people.
		
00:33:53 --> 00:33:57
			You have family peers that are families of
		
00:33:57 --> 00:34:00
			those that had loved ones that they cared
		
00:34:00 --> 00:34:02
			for that went through these things.
		
00:34:02 --> 00:34:04
			And they've gained experience over the years helping
		
00:34:04 --> 00:34:06
			care for their loved ones who have experienced
		
00:34:06 --> 00:34:07
			mental health challenges.
		
00:34:07 --> 00:34:09
			And they've had a lot of experience on
		
00:34:09 --> 00:34:10
			how to deal with some of those things.
		
00:34:10 --> 00:34:12
			So families, they're family peers.
		
00:34:12 --> 00:34:15
			So there's different levels of peers.
		
00:34:15 --> 00:34:16
			This is awesome, man.
		
00:34:16 --> 00:34:16
			Keep going.
		
00:34:16 --> 00:34:21
			And so the idea is that we use...
		
00:34:22 --> 00:34:24
			And by the way, they work in hospitals,
		
00:34:24 --> 00:34:25
			clinics.
		
00:34:25 --> 00:34:27
			And they work in inpatient units.
		
00:34:27 --> 00:34:28
			They work in outpatient.
		
00:34:29 --> 00:34:31
			And these are jobs.
		
00:34:31 --> 00:34:32
			They're mental professionals.
		
00:34:32 --> 00:34:36
			And their expertise is their life experience.
		
00:34:36 --> 00:34:38
			So now we're starting to have this talk
		
00:34:38 --> 00:34:43
			in medicine that experiential expertise, as in our
		
00:34:43 --> 00:34:45
			life experience, is a form of knowledge.
		
00:34:46 --> 00:34:47
			And I agree with it.
		
00:34:48 --> 00:34:50
			People, you know, our mothers and our fathers,
		
00:34:50 --> 00:34:52
			you know, like our parents, they have certain
		
00:34:52 --> 00:34:56
			types of experiences over the years that is
		
00:34:56 --> 00:34:56
			a form of knowledge.
		
00:34:57 --> 00:34:57
			Of course.
		
00:34:57 --> 00:34:58
			And they should be able to share that.
		
00:34:59 --> 00:35:03
			No, and this is validating and grounded, like
		
00:35:03 --> 00:35:07
			validated Islamically that when the Prophet sallallahu alayhi
		
00:35:07 --> 00:35:09
			wa sallam says, the believer is not bit
		
00:35:09 --> 00:35:10
			from the same snake hole twice.
		
00:35:11 --> 00:35:12
			And that can also be extended to, you
		
00:35:12 --> 00:35:14
			shouldn't be bit from the same snake hole
		
00:35:14 --> 00:35:15
			that your brother got bit from, like learning
		
00:35:15 --> 00:35:16
			from each other.
		
00:35:16 --> 00:35:20
			And even we find sort of further substantiation
		
00:35:20 --> 00:35:22
			for that in Musa alayhi sallam telling the
		
00:35:22 --> 00:35:23
			Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, no, no, no,
		
00:35:23 --> 00:35:24
			I've experienced the people.
		
00:35:25 --> 00:35:26
			Ask Allah for a reduction in the prayers.
		
00:35:26 --> 00:35:27
			They're not going to be able to handle
		
00:35:27 --> 00:35:27
			it.
		
00:35:28 --> 00:35:30
			And so on the flip side, simply to
		
00:35:30 --> 00:35:32
			have someone that I've walked in your shoes.
		
00:35:32 --> 00:35:33
			I've been through this.
		
00:35:33 --> 00:35:35
			I'm a survivor as well.
		
00:35:35 --> 00:35:37
			Like you will get through it.
		
00:35:37 --> 00:35:43
			You know, I remember I've known the term
		
00:35:43 --> 00:35:45
			PTSD as a layman would.
		
00:35:45 --> 00:35:48
			I mean, post-traumatic stress disorder for a
		
00:35:48 --> 00:35:51
			decade before I actually learned that there are
		
00:35:51 --> 00:35:54
			people that were PTSD and they've sort of
		
00:35:54 --> 00:35:55
			transitioned to a better place.
		
00:35:55 --> 00:35:55
			And I'm like, oh, really?
		
00:35:56 --> 00:35:57
			They're like, yeah.
		
00:35:58 --> 00:35:59
			I felt like such an idiot.
		
00:36:00 --> 00:36:03
			They're like, Allah heals the body, the mind
		
00:36:03 --> 00:36:04
			the same way He can heal the body.
		
00:36:04 --> 00:36:05
			I was like, oh, wow.
		
00:36:05 --> 00:36:07
			He's like, yeah, so we don't have the
		
00:36:07 --> 00:36:08
			same triggers anymore.
		
00:36:08 --> 00:36:11
			We're not sort of unnerved by the dark
		
00:36:11 --> 00:36:13
			or whatever it was that there was their
		
00:36:13 --> 00:36:15
			particular trigger from their trauma.
		
00:36:15 --> 00:36:19
			And so to hear more about that from
		
00:36:19 --> 00:36:21
			the horse's mouth, right, for someone who's been
		
00:36:21 --> 00:36:22
			through it, deeply inspiring, right?
		
00:36:23 --> 00:36:23
			Absolutely.
		
00:36:23 --> 00:36:24
			And it's evidence-based.
		
00:36:24 --> 00:36:25
			There is a lot of evidence.
		
00:36:25 --> 00:36:29
			This is not just because in medicine and
		
00:36:29 --> 00:36:31
			science we need data, we need evidence for
		
00:36:31 --> 00:36:32
			it to be billed by insurances.
		
00:36:32 --> 00:36:37
			And so peer specialists have a body of
		
00:36:37 --> 00:36:41
			evidence behind that their outcomes are just as
		
00:36:41 --> 00:36:43
			good as medication, are just as good as
		
00:36:43 --> 00:36:46
			therapy, except the reason they're not so mainstream
		
00:36:46 --> 00:36:48
			is because they don't have the fancy titles
		
00:36:48 --> 00:36:49
			and the degrees.
		
00:36:51 --> 00:36:53
			Or maybe it's not lucrative for corporate.
		
00:36:54 --> 00:36:57
			You're this wonderful human being who could be
		
00:36:57 --> 00:36:58
			even working pro bono and you're not charging
		
00:36:58 --> 00:36:59
			anyone for it.
		
00:36:59 --> 00:37:01
			They're not appreciated.
		
00:37:01 --> 00:37:05
			And the fellowship that I'm currently in, I'm
		
00:37:05 --> 00:37:06
			so happy to be a part of the
		
00:37:06 --> 00:37:07
			Columbia Fellowship.
		
00:37:07 --> 00:37:10
			It's unique in the sense they hire peer
		
00:37:10 --> 00:37:11
			specialists, not as specialists.
		
00:37:11 --> 00:37:14
			We're 10 fellows every year in public and
		
00:37:14 --> 00:37:15
			community psychiatry.
		
00:37:16 --> 00:37:18
			They hire 10 people with a lived experience,
		
00:37:19 --> 00:37:22
			not as specialists but as advisors to us,
		
00:37:23 --> 00:37:23
			to fellows.
		
00:37:23 --> 00:37:27
			It's like, listen, yes, you're a psychiatrist, you're
		
00:37:27 --> 00:37:29
			a fellow, but I'm going to be advising
		
00:37:29 --> 00:37:30
			you.
		
00:37:30 --> 00:37:32
			This is exciting, man.
		
00:37:32 --> 00:37:33
			Flipping the script.
		
00:37:33 --> 00:37:35
			May Allah increase you guys, help take it
		
00:37:35 --> 00:37:35
			to the moon.
		
00:37:35 --> 00:37:37
			It sounds like it's just in its formative
		
00:37:37 --> 00:37:40
			phases now, the infancy of this peer specialization,
		
00:37:40 --> 00:37:43
			and I hope we can sort of optimize
		
00:37:43 --> 00:37:45
			it in our community as well, leverage it
		
00:37:45 --> 00:37:46
			because of the need is just so much
		
00:37:46 --> 00:37:46
			there.
		
00:37:46 --> 00:37:49
			I mean, and we've gone to communities and
		
00:37:49 --> 00:37:51
			they have, when we've talked about peer specialists,
		
00:37:51 --> 00:37:53
			they've reached out through our trainings and said,
		
00:37:53 --> 00:37:54
			how can I do this?
		
00:37:54 --> 00:37:56
			We help them with the resources and they've
		
00:37:56 --> 00:37:57
			gone on to become certified peer specialists.
		
00:37:57 --> 00:37:59
			So I'm going to send everybody to Khair
		
00:37:59 --> 00:37:59
			now.
		
00:38:00 --> 00:38:03
			Check the link of the video, inshallah ta
		
00:38:03 --> 00:38:03
			'ala.
		
00:38:04 --> 00:38:06
			So a little bit of a greedy question.
		
00:38:07 --> 00:38:08
			Traumatize the imams.
		
00:38:08 --> 00:38:09
			I don't even know if I am or
		
00:38:09 --> 00:38:13
			I am not a traumatized imam, but let's
		
00:38:13 --> 00:38:15
			be vulnerable to lead by example and sort
		
00:38:15 --> 00:38:15
			of model.
		
00:38:16 --> 00:38:18
			Let's subject ourselves to the possibility of needing
		
00:38:18 --> 00:38:18
			help.
		
00:38:21 --> 00:38:22
			I'm being a little bit playful here.
		
00:38:23 --> 00:38:25
			Yaqeen reports, right, you saw the numbers.
		
00:38:25 --> 00:38:27
			Of course, it is a limited sample.
		
00:38:28 --> 00:38:30
			Those that were interviewed, a few hundred imams,
		
00:38:32 --> 00:38:36
			20% are suffering from clinical anxiety, according
		
00:38:36 --> 00:38:38
			to the study, a little less than that
		
00:38:38 --> 00:38:38
			from depression.
		
00:38:39 --> 00:38:41
			Without getting into sort of the roots of
		
00:38:41 --> 00:38:42
			that and exploring it, there are other episodes
		
00:38:42 --> 00:38:44
			where we speak about the imam's struggles.
		
00:38:45 --> 00:38:48
			But what would your advice be for those
		
00:38:48 --> 00:38:52
			who clearly appear to be under great deals
		
00:38:52 --> 00:38:53
			of stress?
		
00:38:53 --> 00:38:56
			And also secondhand are constantly on the receiving
		
00:38:56 --> 00:38:59
			end, are almost like first responders, maybe the
		
00:38:59 --> 00:39:01
			vicarious secondhand element.
		
00:39:02 --> 00:39:03
			What do you advise?
		
00:39:03 --> 00:39:06
			How do we serve our imams a little
		
00:39:06 --> 00:39:06
			better?
		
00:39:07 --> 00:39:08
			I'm not an imam.
		
00:39:08 --> 00:39:09
			I'm a religious director.
		
00:39:10 --> 00:39:12
			But for everybody, inshallah, bismillah.
		
00:39:13 --> 00:39:17
			I think the important thing here is when
		
00:39:17 --> 00:39:20
			we now have some data, hopefully it's representative
		
00:39:20 --> 00:39:22
			of the larger sample as well.
		
00:39:22 --> 00:39:23
			Hopefully it's representative.
		
00:39:24 --> 00:39:27
			But when there are clinical concerns, and these
		
00:39:27 --> 00:39:29
			are not diagnoses, but concerns to further explore.
		
00:39:30 --> 00:39:31
			There's a concern.
		
00:39:31 --> 00:39:32
			It may or may not be a clinical
		
00:39:32 --> 00:39:35
			issue as a diagnosable issue.
		
00:39:35 --> 00:39:38
			However, when imams do their best in terms
		
00:39:38 --> 00:39:41
			of all of their supports that they have
		
00:39:41 --> 00:39:44
			and they still may have issues with anxiety
		
00:39:44 --> 00:39:47
			or depression, Allah sent the Quran and ask
		
00:39:47 --> 00:39:50
			the people of knowledge if you don't know.
		
00:39:51 --> 00:39:55
			And here the people of knowledge will include
		
00:39:55 --> 00:39:57
			the mental health professionals.
		
00:39:58 --> 00:40:00
			And so if they collaborate with them or
		
00:40:00 --> 00:40:03
			they seek some sort of therapy or treatment
		
00:40:03 --> 00:40:05
			or whatever they may need, or even just
		
00:40:05 --> 00:40:08
			a consultation to see what's going on, because
		
00:40:08 --> 00:40:10
			our biggest blind spot is to ourselves.
		
00:40:11 --> 00:40:13
			And if someone else can uncover that and
		
00:40:13 --> 00:40:15
			say like, hey, maybe perhaps if we try
		
00:40:15 --> 00:40:15
			something.
		
00:40:16 --> 00:40:18
			And if they have a good experience and
		
00:40:18 --> 00:40:20
			they're able to kind of have a support
		
00:40:20 --> 00:40:22
			that they can kind of share with in
		
00:40:22 --> 00:40:25
			a confidential ways, like someone on their side
		
00:40:25 --> 00:40:28
			and this decreases their level of stress and
		
00:40:28 --> 00:40:31
			it's like a processing type of mechanism.
		
00:40:31 --> 00:40:33
			And they can go back a little bit
		
00:40:33 --> 00:40:34
			lighter to their community.
		
00:40:34 --> 00:40:36
			And they can go back into their community.
		
00:40:37 --> 00:40:39
			And some of them may become peer specialists.
		
00:40:39 --> 00:40:41
			And it's like, hey, I'm a peer as
		
00:40:41 --> 00:40:41
			well.
		
00:40:41 --> 00:40:45
			And imagine the power, the influence if it
		
00:40:45 --> 00:40:46
			comes from an imam.
		
00:40:48 --> 00:40:51
			I mean, subhanAllah, we're talking about breaking stigma,
		
00:40:51 --> 00:40:52
			normalizing the conversations.
		
00:40:53 --> 00:40:54
			We're human beings.
		
00:40:54 --> 00:40:55
			The prophets were human beings.
		
00:40:55 --> 00:40:58
			Yes, their faith was impeccable, but we could
		
00:40:58 --> 00:40:59
			not remove the human experience.
		
00:41:01 --> 00:41:04
			I don't have personal experience with sort of
		
00:41:04 --> 00:41:06
			coming out to the community and saying I've
		
00:41:06 --> 00:41:08
			struggled with this and I've done that.
		
00:41:08 --> 00:41:10
			But just recently I was in London and
		
00:41:10 --> 00:41:13
			they asked me to mention just some tips
		
00:41:13 --> 00:41:15
			on sort of keys to a successful marriage
		
00:41:15 --> 00:41:15
			and the likes.
		
00:41:15 --> 00:41:19
			And I threw in there somewhere, I just
		
00:41:19 --> 00:41:21
			have no issue saying it, that I go
		
00:41:21 --> 00:41:23
			through sort of marital training.
		
00:41:23 --> 00:41:24
			I go through marital counseling.
		
00:41:24 --> 00:41:26
			I sort of, you know, you always need
		
00:41:26 --> 00:41:26
			to refine your craft.
		
00:41:26 --> 00:41:28
			You always need to make sure that you're
		
00:41:28 --> 00:41:31
			not blind to something that can tear down
		
00:41:31 --> 00:41:33
			your family and so on and so forth.
		
00:41:33 --> 00:41:34
			So I just mentioned it in passing.
		
00:41:34 --> 00:41:35
			I didn't even give all these justifications.
		
00:41:36 --> 00:41:38
			And I remember seeing some people in the
		
00:41:38 --> 00:41:40
			crowd, some of them are community leaders.
		
00:41:41 --> 00:41:42
			His hand flew up.
		
00:41:42 --> 00:41:44
			He's like, you do what?
		
00:41:45 --> 00:41:46
			Why would a sheikh?
		
00:41:46 --> 00:41:47
			And I had to sort of work him
		
00:41:47 --> 00:41:48
			through.
		
00:41:48 --> 00:41:49
			And I don't even think I gave him
		
00:41:49 --> 00:41:51
			a great answer at the moment because of
		
00:41:51 --> 00:41:55
			sort of I was jolted by his reaction.
		
00:41:55 --> 00:41:56
			He was not inappropriate.
		
00:41:56 --> 00:41:58
			But it was just his shock was kind
		
00:41:58 --> 00:41:59
			of like funny for me.
		
00:42:00 --> 00:42:01
			And I was like, what's the big deal?
		
00:42:01 --> 00:42:03
			Like, you know, even the best basketball players
		
00:42:03 --> 00:42:05
			still have to go to practice, except Allen
		
00:42:05 --> 00:42:05
			Iverson.
		
00:42:05 --> 00:42:06
			I know the joke.
		
00:42:06 --> 00:42:08
			It's getting old because he's been retired for
		
00:42:08 --> 00:42:08
			so long.
		
00:42:08 --> 00:42:10
			But he's getting in a lot of trouble
		
00:42:10 --> 00:42:11
			for not going to practice.
		
00:42:11 --> 00:42:13
			But even the best, right, will still continue
		
00:42:13 --> 00:42:15
			to practice, continue to check sort of like
		
00:42:15 --> 00:42:16
			what my Achilles could be.
		
00:42:17 --> 00:42:19
			And so I felt by the end of
		
00:42:19 --> 00:42:21
			it that it's like, oh, okay, so like
		
00:42:21 --> 00:42:22
			we can do this.
		
00:42:22 --> 00:42:23
			And we can admit this.
		
00:42:24 --> 00:42:24
			Is it okay?
		
00:42:25 --> 00:42:25
			Yes.
		
00:42:25 --> 00:42:26
			I wonder how everyone else heard it if
		
00:42:26 --> 00:42:27
			sort of a fellow leader heard it that
		
00:42:27 --> 00:42:27
			way.
		
00:42:28 --> 00:42:31
			I think it would be exponentially more consequential
		
00:42:31 --> 00:42:33
			and beneficial to speak about this on the
		
00:42:33 --> 00:42:34
			mental health level.
		
00:42:35 --> 00:42:36
			Yes, I do.
		
00:42:36 --> 00:42:37
			Yes, I've checked.
		
00:42:37 --> 00:42:39
			Yes, I've recovered.
		
00:42:39 --> 00:42:40
			Yes, I was in a sort of a
		
00:42:40 --> 00:42:41
			foggier place.
		
00:42:41 --> 00:42:44
			I can attest that this was better than
		
00:42:44 --> 00:42:45
			I thought it would be.
		
00:42:45 --> 00:42:46
			Absolutely.
		
00:42:46 --> 00:42:47
			And I'll tell you a funny story.
		
00:42:48 --> 00:42:49
			When I tell my colleagues we do couples
		
00:42:49 --> 00:42:51
			counseling, like me and my wife, we do
		
00:42:51 --> 00:42:51
			couples counseling.
		
00:42:52 --> 00:42:52
			You're a psychiatrist?
		
00:42:53 --> 00:42:54
			You do couples counseling?
		
00:42:54 --> 00:42:56
			But you know all this stuff.
		
00:42:58 --> 00:42:59
			Yes, but no.
		
00:43:00 --> 00:43:02
			Exactly like you said.
		
00:43:02 --> 00:43:04
			We have our limitations and we have our
		
00:43:04 --> 00:43:05
			blind spots.
		
00:43:06 --> 00:43:09
			When I did couples counseling with my wife
		
00:43:09 --> 00:43:12
			from medical school, up until I think we
		
00:43:12 --> 00:43:15
			were doing it for years, alhamdulillah, and the
		
00:43:15 --> 00:43:20
			amount I was able to understand through like
		
00:43:20 --> 00:43:22
			a neutral party, it's like, okay.
		
00:43:22 --> 00:43:24
			It's not the filter of the ego that's
		
00:43:24 --> 00:43:25
			interpreting everything.
		
00:43:25 --> 00:43:28
			And it strengthened our relationship, alhamdulillah.
		
00:43:28 --> 00:43:31
			I was able to understand things that I
		
00:43:31 --> 00:43:32
			never looked at.
		
00:43:32 --> 00:43:34
			Yes, I knew the theory, but in our
		
00:43:34 --> 00:43:37
			own life, it's hard to be objective when
		
00:43:37 --> 00:43:38
			we're dealing with our own families.
		
00:43:39 --> 00:43:41
			And even if you abstract this a little
		
00:43:41 --> 00:43:45
			bit before I wind down, we all see
		
00:43:45 --> 00:43:47
			Gaza as our families, right?
		
00:43:47 --> 00:43:49
			And so it's hard for us even to
		
00:43:49 --> 00:43:52
			say, no, I need a breather.
		
00:43:52 --> 00:43:54
			Like even imams, like they feel guilty to
		
00:43:54 --> 00:43:55
			disengage.
		
00:43:55 --> 00:43:57
			But you're not doing anyone a favor by
		
00:43:57 --> 00:43:59
			burning out or not recognizing that you're burning
		
00:43:59 --> 00:44:01
			out or stopping to check, am I burning
		
00:44:01 --> 00:44:01
			out?
		
00:44:01 --> 00:44:03
			You're actually becoming less and less productive, and
		
00:44:03 --> 00:44:04
			you still want to just keep swinging the
		
00:44:04 --> 00:44:05
			proverbial hammer.
		
00:44:07 --> 00:44:08
			And so it's all right.
		
00:44:09 --> 00:44:11
			These are our family, and we do need
		
00:44:11 --> 00:44:13
			to breathe so that we can serve them
		
00:44:13 --> 00:44:13
			better.
		
00:44:14 --> 00:44:17
			So we spoke about accepting where we stand
		
00:44:17 --> 00:44:19
			in terms of society and the Muslim community.
		
00:44:19 --> 00:44:22
			We spoke about how to work out some
		
00:44:22 --> 00:44:24
			of the stigmas, ironing out the stigmas so
		
00:44:24 --> 00:44:27
			that there's less friction in engaging this subject.
		
00:44:27 --> 00:44:29
			We spoke about relinking this to our tradition.
		
00:44:29 --> 00:44:30
			This is centrally Islamic.
		
00:44:31 --> 00:44:32
			The Quran and the sunnah and all of
		
00:44:32 --> 00:44:36
			this speak about seeking refuge with Allah from
		
00:44:36 --> 00:44:38
			anxiety, from depression, from grief, from sadness.
		
00:44:40 --> 00:44:42
			And, of course, our historical heritage and all
		
00:44:42 --> 00:44:46
			of these pioneering institutes or clinics and the
		
00:44:46 --> 00:44:50
			likes and research in psychotherapy, the importance of
		
00:44:50 --> 00:44:53
			creating fronts for collaboration, collaborative fronts, whether within
		
00:44:53 --> 00:44:55
			the boards or within the community discussions or
		
00:44:55 --> 00:44:57
			between at least an imam and an individual
		
00:44:57 --> 00:45:01
			professional, and then exploring the peer specialist world,
		
00:45:01 --> 00:45:02
			the community ambassador world.
		
00:45:02 --> 00:45:03
			Anything we haven't stated?
		
00:45:05 --> 00:45:06
			I think we've covered it all.
		
00:45:06 --> 00:45:06
			Alhamdulillah.
		
00:45:07 --> 00:45:07
			Alhamdulillah.
		
00:45:07 --> 00:45:08
			Alhamdulillah for that.
		
00:45:09 --> 00:45:09
			JazakAllah khair to everybody.
		
00:45:10 --> 00:45:12
			Look out for the resources in the description
		
00:45:12 --> 00:45:12
			of the video.
		
00:45:13 --> 00:45:15
			May Allah reward Dr. Ali Sayyid and his
		
00:45:15 --> 00:45:17
			team from Khair Collective.
		
00:45:17 --> 00:45:19
			And may Allah use us to better the
		
00:45:19 --> 00:45:20
			world around us and accept it from us
		
00:45:20 --> 00:45:22
			and forgive us our shortcomings.
		
00:45:22 --> 00:45:23
			BarakAllahu feekum.
		
00:45:23 --> 00:45:23
			Assalamualaikum.