Maryam Amir – Women and Community Spaces
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AI: Transcript ©
Start this episode if you're a brother, a father or a husband,
today's episode is absolutely required listening. I sat down
with ustadha, Lubna Mullah, and first time Double Take guest,
ustada Mariam Amir to answer a few serious questions about our
community. Are our communities pushing women away today. What do
we lose when Muslim women are disengaged from Islamic
institutions, and how can we improve access and connection to
the tradition for Muslim women?
Welcome to a new episode of double take, a podcast by Yaqeen
Institute about the questions and ideas around Islam and Muslims
that give us pause. Remember to subscribe to the show on Apple
podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, or wherever you get your favorite
podcast. Check out the links in the show notes if you want to
share feedback with the team, or if you'd like to join our new
email newsletter. Usteda Lubna Mullah is a board member at
Yaqeen, a Muslim chaplain at UCLA with the Institute of knowledge
and the former national terbia Director for the Muslim American
society. She has a Bachelors in Business Admin and a Masters of
Fine Arts in Screenwriting. She spent three years studying in
Egypt under Azhari scholars with her husband, Sheik Suhail Mullah.
She recently hosted the Yaqeen series upheld by Allah about women
in the Quran. USADA Meriam Amir received her master's in education
from UCLA. She holds a second bachelor's degree in Islamic
studies through Al Azhar University. She has studied in
Egypt, memorized the Quran and has researched a variety of religious
sciences for the past 15 years. Ustada Mariam is host of the Quran
champion series on Islam channel and featured in a video series on
faith produced by good cast called the Maryam Amir show. She holds a
second degree black belt in Taekwondo, and she's also the
creator of Karia, the women Quran reciters app available for free on
iPhone and Android. Enjoy
the
episode. Ketu,
the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam said, the best people are
those of my generation, then those who come after them, then those
who come after them.
When we think about where we should be as a community, we look
at the example of the prophesy Allahu alai wa sallam and the
early generations of believers now, ustadha Lubna and ustada
Miriam, you've spent a lot of time on the ground serving and leading
American Muslim communities, and you have particularly unique
insight into the experiences of Muslim women. So I want you, for
the beginning of this episode to imagine something, for me, imagine
for a moment that you're both at a conference with 40,000 people and
1000s tuning in
the audience exclusively fathers who All came to answer one
question,
what are the challenges facing my daughters, or that are about to
face my daughters in the Muslim community, what are the biggest
challenges facing our community? There's many, so panaland will
definitely
hone in on a few. Inshallah, but I would say one of the biggest
challenges facing our facing women in our community is the feeling of
being valued
in society,
in Islam and feeling that they're valued by Allah, I would say
that's the biggest challenge that they face. I completely agree with
you, the idea of a woman's value and her worth in the way that
Allah sees her and in the way that she is seen in the community, and
then includes in the family space. And it starts oftentimes in the
family space. Knowing that this is a conference of fathers asking
about their daughters is very exciting, because that shows an
investment in how fathers feel about their daughters and how they
can be there to support them in that process. Realistically,
that's not the case in a lot of in a lot of families. Unfortunately,
many women who speak with me and I'm sure settle up as well. One of
the reasons why they struggle is because when they have been
a survivor, for example, assault, or they have gone through doubts
and faith, or they have walked into a masjid space and been told
there is no space for a woman that they don't have the support of
their fathers or the their their communities, to navigate what that
means for their faith as a woman, particularly in the West, who has
access to so many different spaces, but not her religious
space.
Or if she does have access, what does that access actually look
like? How is she made to feel in the masjid when she walks in? Or
how does she feel when she has a question and she doesn't know
where to go with that question? And of course, women struggle
Muslim women struggle with issues that women in general struggle
with in a particular society. They're not separate from those
stats. So when it comes to all of the types of struggles that women
face when it comes to access in general, not just in the Muslim
space, but at the same time, finding it outside of the Muslim
space, it really impacts the way a woman can see her faith. You
mentioned
them, feeling valued. What does that mean? How does that manifest
itself
in the day to day lives of Muslim communities? I'd like to answer
that by sharing an anecdote of an estaba who was speaking with me
about when she was going to give a lecture in a masjid. The Imam and
her were going to give lectures to middle school and high school
girls and boys, and the Imam sat at the very front of the masjid,
and he did not allow for the ustada to sit in the front, and
instead said that she and the girl should sit in a separate room.
This ustada is a grandmother. She has multiple grandchildren, masha
Allah, and when she's sitting in this room listening to the Imam
speak about Quran and Salah and things related to spirituality. He
ends his lecture to these middle and high school boys by saying,
and woman, excuse me unto girls. And he ends by saying, and woman,
don't forget, women are the majority of hellfire. And that's
it. That's the end of his lecture. Now this grandmother who's in
estaba is sitting and wondering how she's going to address the
middle and high school girls who are surprised by that statement,
who are looking at her, confused at what the implications of that
is supposed to mean. While the Imam tells the boys to stand up
and walk to another room, even though they're already in separate
rooms. And then he doesn't turn off his mic, perhaps accidentally,
most likely, but he starts to play football with the boys while the
ustada is trying to discuss with the girls how to grow their faith
as American Muslim woman, as Muslim American high school and
middle schoolers, when he has ended with this statement. Now I
want to share this antidote for a number of reasons. The first being
that we have amazing imams in our communities. So simply one example
of an imam who used a hadith in a way that was completely
inappropriate and is not reflective of the context of the
Hadith or the commentary of the Hadith itself, does not imply that
we have Imams who are not
incredibly invested in their communities and women in our
communities. I myself have been taught almost 100% by men
scholars, and it's one of the reasons I'm so passionate about
women's issues, because I have seen what it looks like when men
invest in women's issues and amplify women's voices. So when
we're talking about this particular Imam, he's not
necessarily a reflection of all Imams, but we can look at the
example of how an imam who chooses to make a decision like this
impacts the way women experience Islam in the Muslim community, and
then from such a young age, and then how would that impact their
idea of worth? I have been asked by women who are in their 30s, if
Allah sees women somewhere between the status of an animal and a man,
like she's not quite the level of a man, but she's not exactly as
you know, it's not exactly an animal. So is she somewhere in
between? I have been asked by women constantly, and when I say
constantly, this is like weekly, on a weekly basis,
in the hundreds, women have asked me,
Why does Allah hate women?
Or why am I worthy of Allah answering my dua when I'm a woman
and he doesn't love women? And I wish I could say that this is
maybe one or two women in their particular community who don't
have access to a masjid, who've never met people of knowledge, who
don't have any sort of resources. But the reality that reality is
that these questions come from all over the United States, all over
the West, Muslim woman in the West, in Australia, in the UK, and
Sweden and Canada, and in Muslim majority countries as well. And so
this is not simply one person who's had one negative experience
and therefore assumes that Islam does not support women. Rather,
I've been contacted by women who have left Islam, and afterwards,
they're willing to talk to me about it, and they say they just
could no longer live with hating themselves anymore simply because
they were born woman, and they had no choice to be born but a woman.
And when we have these emotions constantly coming up by so many
women, and of course, not all women experience these
experiences, so many women have an amazing experience when they walk
into a masjid space, an institution, an organization, and
they feel cherished and loved, and they see how Islam honors and
nurtures that that growth as a woman specifically, but when we
have so many of these stories, it's telling us something else,
and that it's not necessarily just about one random email making a
decision, but about policies that we may need to reevaluate when it
comes to women and access to worship spaces
for sharing that ustava Lubna help me understand the damage done by a
situation like that. What goes through these kids minds when they
hear a hadith put out of context or that they are
pushed away by kind of religious leaders, for example, like, like
the example that we just heard, what happens to those young people
the furthest extreme is leaving Islam completely, but even before
that, it's, you know, having a negative experience in the masjid
and not coming back for 10 years. It's
undergoing withstanding something that's abusive, whether it's
within the home or within within the community, because maybe
that's what I'm supposed to do. Maybe I'm maybe because I'm not as
worthy, I should just take on this injustice, and I should just be
patient. And unfortunately, if that's not the case, then these
young girls, and as somebody mentioned, we're talking about
women and even older women I'm talking this. This spans a
lifetime of feelings that I'm just not worthy in Islam. So there's
always this self doubt. And imagine a woman who's questioning
her place in Islam, let alone she's already struggling with the
overwhelming pressure of womanhood in society in general, and then
add on top of that to be a person of color, if that's her case, and
then on top of that, a Muslim woman. And then on top of that, if
she's a Muslim woman wearing hijab, so more identifiable in
public. And then you're struggling with this question, Does Allah
even love me? Is this? What is this the value of women in Islam?
That's a lot. It's a lot to bear. Subhanallah like I think of these
scenarios, Alhamdulillah, as as a Maria mentioned and and yourself
Lubna, that there are huge strides being made in Muslim communities
across the globe, not just in the west and even kind of the Middle
East and and in Asia, where I see Muslim women leaders, I see Muslim
women fully engaged In Islamic institutions. I see that. And
there are positive kind of experiences all across the globe.
But equally, maybe even more, there are those negative
instances, and I've seen them myself. I've seen even during the
heights of covid when when the doors were open to the masjid,
only a select few men were able to experience that away the women
were were staying at home, and so, you know, a lot of women around me
asked me the same question, you know, why? Why do I? Why am I? Why
am I pushed away from from my local mosque? How did we get here?
Is my question. Who's to blame? Subhanallah, I think just, you
know, generally speaking, we've moved away from Asana. We've moved
away from the prophetic model. And as as as time goes on, there's
always going to be periods where we we forget our tradition, we
forget certain aspects of our tradition, we move away from it.
And there's always going to have to be renewal in all aspects of
Islam, right? Not not just in terms of women and their value in
Islam.
So moving away from the tradition, and as some people, especially in
the West, as we try to represent Islam publicly, we definitely try
to build our institutions. Not everyone, necessarily, who's
involved in propagating Islam in the institutions are learned.
And when that happens, and they come up and they give a khutbah,
or they are, you know, putting policies in place that define what
a message will look like or what programming will look like. And if
they're not necessarily educated in Islam or have the proper
background.
They, due to their gaps in knowledge, they can unknowingly
further propagate some of these misunderstandings and put bad
practices in place, or at the very least, they're not putting the
best practices in place. And so that's my take on how we got here.
Sarah love not. I completely agree with you that we have, you know,
wonderful individuals who are invested, but maybe not trained.
And I think that's part of our gap, that sometimes we even have
people of knowledge who are trained in felt but they're not
trained in therapy, and someone who comes needs the support of
therapy to be able to process what they're going.
Going through from a religious perspective, even, because it's
not about the fiqh of the issue, it's about the self worth and the
understanding of what that means in our relationship to Allah. But
also talking historically, there are so many political reasons why
we are where we are at this time as an ummah and particular aspects
of our ummah. And also going back to when scholarship was
flourishing, when there were women scholars who were teaching some of
the greatest scholars that we know, who are men, Imam Malik,
Imam Ahmed, Imam Shafi Ibn Taymiyyah Ibn Hajar, all of them,
and so many more, were taught by women scholars. We can look at the
impact of colonialism, and we can also look at the impact of
translation. So for example, Dr akumnadoy, who is a Hadith
scholar, speaks about how the translation of Greek philosophy
and the ideas of women in Greek philosophy started seeping into
Arabic. What excuse me, not seeping into Arabic was translated
into Arabic, and we started seeping into the idea of Islamic
scholarship. And so when those who ascribe, when those scholars who
ascribed to this idea of Greek philosophy then became the rulers.
And in this concept of Greek philosophy at the time, there was,
there was an understanding that women should not be educated. They
question whether or not women are the same in receiving an education
that impacted the policies that were enacted by the rulers who
then took rule. So we as an Umba went from a time in which women
were scholars and they were teachers in madadas, that they
were teachers of men scholars and students of men, scholars, and we
went to a time where, in within less than a generation, women are
no longer able to go to school. How is that going to impact the
entire almost understanding of whether or not a woman can study
or whether or not a woman can teach just one or two generations
later, as we notice, the political impact of the way that our Ummah
has made decisions because of what we've taken from other, you know,
religious traditions or other cultural traditions, we can start
navigating what that actually looks like for our faith. So I'll
give you an example. Women often ask me if they are cursed when
they get their period in Ramadan or in Hajj. I was in hajj, and a
woman who was in her old, old, maybe, maybe in her late 40s, she
came to me, and she started crying, and she said that she had
gotten her period. And the woman in the group told her, you're in
Hajj. What did you do? What did you do that Allah is punishing
you? And she was bawling, just weeping to me, like, what did I do
in Hajj that I deserve to get my period as a punishment? And
subhanAllah, the fact that this woman saw her period as a
punishment, the fact that all these other women saw that her
period was a punishment, is not specific to that group of women. I
get this question all the time for women all over the world, but
within our tradition, there is nowhere in our books of Philip
there is nowhere in the Quran, there is nowhere in our Hadith
that could even even indicate that a period would be a punishment, or
that it would be because of a sin. It's obviously something that's so
natural that Allah has blessed women with for the sake of
humanity. Yes, there are fiqh rulings that come into place. But
with the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa salam saw Aisha radiah crying
when they went for Hajj, and the Prophet sallallahu Sallam asked,
perhaps you got your period? And she said, Yes. What did he say?
SallAllahu, alaihi wasallam, he affirmed that this is something
that is written for all for the daughters of Adam, he connected
her to a prophet. Are they his salah? And we have a number of
narrations like this, where the prophet Sallallahu sallab, is in
the presence of someone who asks about a period, or, for example,
one of the girls of of a tribe Benoit, who came and asked if they
could be nurses and help with the sick and the wounded in a battle.
She actually started her menses in front of the Prophet sallallahu
alayhi, who has sent them on a riding camel. And she was so
embarrassed, and the Prophet saw them, helped her understand the
rulings of filth, of how to clean that from the luggage that it
spilled on. And then he gave her a necklace from the spoils of war,
from
put it and she and she wore and she put it stipulated that she
wanted to wear it when she was buried, because she didn't want to
remove something the Prophet saw someone put on her. Now this
beautiful, beautiful interaction with with Mensis is not one that a
lot of women are aware of. One but two, the idea of a curse actually
is something that comes from a particular understanding of
Christianity, that in the time of the Tudor class, who was the
beginning of modern day colonialism, they saw it as the
curse of Eve. They saw that which.
You know, it's considered blasphemy for Muslims. And this
is, you know, with all respect to, you know, those, those who are
Christian. And that doesn't necessarily mean Christians today
are being taught this. There's, you know, there's so many
different denominations or different understandings of what
this looks like today. But in this particular point, we can say that
there was a policy that was imported into Muslim majority
lands that were colonized, where the two door class, who was ruling
from England, saw women who were on their periods as part of
experiencing the curse of Eve for God forbid, hashalila for tempting
Adam to eat from the tree. And so women, until the end of time, are
given a taste of that punishment. In that time, they were not even
allowed to have medicine to help with the cramps, because women
were supposed to feel the full punishment. Now this concept is
completely foreign to us as Muslim women, I mean foreign to us in
Islamic law, completely, completely blasphemous in Islamic
law. But why do so many women have that idea? How does colonialism
impact the way Muslim women see ourselves, when sometimes those
messages are being passed on by Muslim families or communities, or
the ways that sometimes massage it, the infrastructure, the
architecture of massage it, are actually created, including when
it comes to women in this space.
So what I'm hearing USADA Mariam, USADA lugna, is that there are
specific issues facing Muslim women in the west and across the
globe that at its worst, are leading Muslim women to
potentially leave Islam or at or at least doubt their faith and
even have negative thoughts of Allah. And if I'm to summarize
some of those issues or what's leading to some of those issues,
it's three things. And correct me, if I'm if I've misinterpreted what
you're what you're both saying. One is that there's a lack of
access to religious institutions,
and that Muslim women
in certain circles are not as welcome as Muslim men. That's
number one. Number two that there's where there's a hadith
specifically about women, like women being the majority in
hellfire, for example, that they're taken out of context and
are given their proper context and they're not explained properly.
And then number three, I guess, linked to number two, is the
misinterpretation of our religion.
And so we might take something and actually completely warp it.
That's from lack of training, lack of understanding, lack of
scholarship. Have I summarized that correctly? Yes, absolutely
sure. So then I want to hone in on the masjid and institutions within
the masjid
Muslim men, it's an obligation for us to pray Jamar in the mosque.
It's not the same for Muslim women. I grew up
hearing over and over that the best prayer for a woman is at home
and in the quietest part of the home, for that matter.
And so I can see how Muslim women
are not frequenting the masjid or not playing big roles in in Muslim
institutions because of that
insinuation that women should be at home. And frankly, maybe call
it culture. Maybe call it my kind of, the way I was taught Islam,
that's, that's what I was taught, that men are kind of, you know,
foreign ministers, women are interior ministers in the home,
wakulum, Fife, like in Yes, bahun, and everyone has their role. And,
you know, men are in the public and women are at home. Help me
kind of understand how that dynamic interacts with what you're
saying and the challenges that Muslim women are facing. Okay, so
I will just answer it to begin with. Inshallah, you know what
that hadith that you just mentioned is a perfect example,
generally speaking, of taking something Subhanallah that was
supposed to make things easier for women
that yes, of course, Juma is obligatory for men and not
obligatory for women. So that is, Alhamdulillah, that's that's an
ease for women, if they have, whether it's young children or
whether they're expecting, and it's difficult for them to come to
the masjid or they're on their menses, or whatever the situation
may be, or taking care of elders, whatever the situation may be that
is Alhamdulillah, out of His Mercy has made it not obligatory for
women, but that being said, subhanAllah, that's where I think
things get mixed together. That does not mean now that women
should not be attending the masjid, that they should not be
coming and benefiting from the congregation, whether it's on
Friday.
The on Friday prayer, or throughout the course of the week,
with all the programmings and all the different salawats,
that particular Hadith, again, was was for those women that they
wanted to be in the masjid and they weren't able to, for whatever
reason, some of the reasons that I had just mentioned, and during
taraweeh, for example, and Allah, or prophesied Salam, is guiding
them and telling them that their prayer is just as good it is that
they could even be getting more reward because they're taking care
of whatever they need to be taken care of. So that is important that
we don't take those two concepts and mix them together and just
say, You know what? Women don't We don't need women's spaces. We
don't need to make them as beautiful or as plentiful, and we
don't need to include them not only in the message space, but
also in the institutional space, which is extremely important in
gaining the women's voice and perspective in all of our
institutions. And that way, we can serve the Muslim ummah in a much
better capacity, because we're getting both perspectives also. To
add to that, what you mentioned brother Muhammad is a discussion
in Phil it is a majority opinion that it is better for a woman to
pray in her home than to pray in the masjid, as long as they are
not barred from going to the masjid. And is that a lobna
mentioned so many beautiful aspects of some of the reasonings
why a woman may not be able to make every prayer and the the
awareness of that in Islam and the honoring of her being able to
navigate what her reality looks like with particular
responsibilities that may go into the masjid very difficult for her.
And at the same time, there is also a minority opinion, Ibn
hazm's opinion, which discusses a woman praying in the masjid being
more rewarded than for her to pray at home. And Ibn hazam and the
scholars who follow this opinion look at the narrations which speak
on the woman's prayer being better in her home. And the context for
that you mentioned, actually, perhaps not. You didn't mention
the exact Hadith, but one of the statements you made was the second
part of a hadith that was actually an addition, not specifically
going back to the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa salam. And so
we have Ibn Hazm talking about and the scholars who follow the
minority opinion, who make up the minority opinion, speaking about
how these Ahadith sometimes work for a particular context, or
there's a discrepancy in the authenticity of their narration.
For example, the hadith of um Hamid, which is often a dis, the
one the most, the most famous one known for a woman's prayer being
better in her home. Dr Jess Auda, who's a contemporary scholar,
speaks about this being for a family reason, pertaining to her
marriage and trying to protect her marriage. Um Asian piti, mentions
that this is this hadith, that these are these. Are these? These
Hadith that talk about this are for particular circumstances, not
for all women until the end of time. Ibn delirqid, he speaks
about how the reward of praying in the masjid is 27 times more for
men and for women. And Ibn Hazm then says, What are we going to
say that a woman who goes through all of this effort just to go to
the masjid is actually not going to be rewarded, and in fact,
perhaps not sinful, but there was no point in the first place, and
it would have been better for her not to do it at all. And so
scholars who discuss this issue, they look at the women companions
Rohan, and they look at how frequently they would attend the
masjid. And the women companions were not just women who were like,
you know, I love the masjid, and so I want to be there. But, you
know, I know that it's better to pay in my home, because that's
going to be what gets me closer to Allah. But I'm not going to do
that like I was a villa, like they would never do that. The women
companions wanted the best. They are the woman companions. They are
surrounding the Prophet sallallahu alayhi, wa sallam. And so when
they're going to the masjid and they're praying, they are seeking
that reward. And closest to the Prophet, saw Islam, um Hashem
bint, Binti, Hadi Fah. She talks about how she memorized Surah off
by listening to the Prophet sallallahu alayhi, he was send
them
recite it. Shell talks about the same, the same thing with another
Surah that She memorized it, excuse me, that she said it was
the she she remembers it as the last Surah she heard from the
Prophet sallallahu that he would send them. We have the narrations
of women who would come to the masjid for for obligatory prayers
and also extra pairs. The Prophet sallallahu Sallam saw Zainab,
Zainab ropes tied up. And he asked, like, what? Who? What is
this for? Excuse me? And they said that this is for Zainab or the
lafayan. When she gets tired, she has these ropes to hold her up.
And the Prophet saw them, didn't comment on it would be better for
her to pray at home, even though she put ropes in the masjid
SallAllahu, sallam, there's a narration of one of the one the
Mothers of the Believers. This is in buchare that she was in isti
Halo, which takes different rulings from Mensis, but it's
still a type of bleeding. This was a time without any sort of, you
know, the type of sanitary tools that are available now. And she
would put a tray underneath her. And this was a time where there.
Are no barriers in the masjid. I'm mentioning all of these, these
examples to show that the women companions, and of course, with
all modesty, this is the Mother of the Believers. She's covered
completely, of course, like no doubt. But the point is, they saw
something about being physically present in the masjid. Now,
Prophet saw them. When he heard a a baby crying, he would make his
prayer shorter. Why? When you look at the reward of a long prayer
that is so rewarded, but why would the Prophet saw him cut his prayer
short just to ensure that a mother would feel comfortable, just to
ensure that woman came come with a mother would be able to come back,
have access to the message, knowing she can bring her child
and that she felt comfortable coming with her children. When we
look at the Prophet saw them holding his granddaughter up, he
would hold his grander granddaughter in Salah and imatha
Kahani talks about how the Arabs of the time, they were still going
through, you know, this is just, this is just barely two decades
from the time when they used to bury their daughters alive, that
these this is a cultural shift. This is a generational shift.
Omar, ODI, Allahu anhu, when he said that they used to think of
women as nothing. So when we're talking about the proposed Salem
setting up the policy in the masjid space, in the
infrastructure and the architecture we're looking at, the
Prophet SAW cult creating an entire cultural shift where women
and then became a central part of the space. So that Imam, the
keheny talks about the Prophet saw them holding his granddaughter to
emphasize, to emphasize the importance of little girls in the
space of domestic to show by action to the men who are learning
what it means to have little girls in this space. And subhanAllah,
you know all of this, to say that this is a minority opinion. Ibn
hazm's opinion is the minority opinion. It's not the majority. Of
scholars and what we as a community, when we're talking
about women in the masjid, women seeking access, we need to look at
what works best for our community? Perhaps the majority opinion is
the right is the right opinion for our community, where women feel
like they can choose, and they have the choice whether to stay
home. If they have little kids, it's very difficult to pray in the
masjid. We have little kids running around, or maybe they're
working outside, and they want to pray in the masjid because it's
close to their work. Whatever the case is that there is the the
space to choose which is going to work best for her worship, and why
this is so critical, in addition to a million other reasons, is
because the brunt of child rearing really does fall on women, and
that's of all religious spaces. It's not specific to Muslims, but
as Muslims, one of the things I'm sure, Asad alumni can speak a
little bit on this, and many of us experience as Muslim women, we've
heard for a very long time in the masjid space that one of our
greatest roles is to be a mother, and many women will never be
mothers. Many women struggle with infertility. Many women are going
through a lot of reasons why they cannot or do not enter that space
of motherhood, but at the same time as us saying that women are,
you know, the most the most important role for women is
motherhood, which is so important and so beautiful and also such a
struggle for so many women, at the same time, we're not giving her
the access required for her to be able to help those children love
Islam. There's a recent study by Iman Abdul Hadi, and she talks
about 50% of women leave the Muslim community, American Muslim
woman. 50% of American Muslim women leave the community.
50%
that means, if we're talking about our concern Islam in the West in
three generations, if a mother right now doesn't feel comfortable
in the masjid, or doesn't feel she has access to the masjid, I've had
people tell me that they want to go into a masjid space, and it's
an empty space. It's completely empty. There's no one there. It's
at a time that's not a particular prayer time. She just wants to go
pray, and there's been a guard standing in the front saying, you
cannot enter this space is only for men. This is in the UK. It's
not in like a place. There's no there's not enough space, there's
not enough tools, there's not enough resources. Another woman
said that she was told to pray outside. She walked to the church
down the street, and she prayed in the church. These sound shocking
to some and unnecessary to some, but for a woman who wants to
ensure that she is firm on her Salah and as a community, for us
to want to ensure that Islam is passed down to the future
generations, should we not take all of these anecdotes seriously
look at the research that's being put out about them and reconsider
what our role needs to be when it comes to access and policies
surrounding women and and accessibility. I think, I think
there is a sincere
intention from Muslim communities
to.
To engage Muslim women. I do see it. I see it around me here, even
in Australia. But I see it across the globe, as I said, in the West,
Middle East, in various other places. I do see that,
I would say the skepticism, or the the challenge in some people's
mind is, where does this stop? Or, like, how far does this go?
Rather,
if we're advocating for Muslim women to be part of, you know, all
the Muslim institutions and in the masjid, is this kind of like
feminism rearing its head in secret, or is this going to lead
our community to having Muslim women Imams. I know I'm I'm
sounding like a, you know, an angry,
uh, man, but I but that's a genuine concern. But
we've heard, of course, that's okay. Yes, you're expressing it.
Yes, we want, we want Muslim women to feel proud that they're they're
Muslim. We want them to be part of this of wider society and the
Muslim institutions. But how far does this go? Okay, brother
Muhammad, I have a question for you. Well, I really appreciate you
mentioning all of these points, because they are questions I'm
asked by men and I'm asked by women as well, and I think they're
really important ones to consider in the lens of how we want to
preserve our Islamic tradition and Islamic law. My question to you
is, where did the jump go from women having access to the masjid
to women leading salah?
I mean, it's just one thing leads to another, right
and and Muslim women being part of it, having positions on the
boards. And you look, I'm asking for a friend here, just to be very
clear,
I feel like
the two guests are about to leave the meeting room, but I want to
hear it like I want to see
I'm asked this question so often, and I appreciate that. It comes
from a place of us as a community, our literacy in Islamic topics in
general as a general community is not very high as a general
community. Yes. Then we have, of course, students of knowledge, and
people like taking classes, and people going to the masjid and
being able to listen to lectures and so, so we have, we also have a
little literacy. And then we have people who are actual full time
students of knowledge and and it's a lifelong journey. What I've
noticed in that journey is that women's issues and understanding
women's issues is not often highlighted when someone is not
specifically studying that point. So for example, if we're talking
about the of Jumaa, or we're talking about aspects related
where women could be discussed, they're often not. And actually,
Dr Asmaa ziada, she talks about this. She has a book that's it's
in Arabic, but the general translated title is the political
role of the women companions and the time of the Prophet
sallallahu, alayhi wa sallam and the khulafa on Rashidun and the
righteous right, the righteous guided rulers. And she mentions
that when she looked at contemporary curriculums and
contemporary books speaking about different aspects of sisira, that
women were simply not mentioned, even though women were the ones
narrating the hadiths that were described, which means women were
the ones present, because they were the ones narrating the Hadith
that took place. For example, Pan Allah. We have so many narrations
where we talk about a particular incident in the Sira that we only
know because a woman was the one who was supporting the Prophet
sallallahu, alayhi wa sallam in that time, or supporting the Dawah
in that time, like om Salama and how she describes what happened at
the core of najeshi. So we have, we have, we haven't. It's like we
haven't mentioned women and they're because we haven't
mentioned them. We don't know very much about women's spaces. Now
also, to clarify, this is obviously, as I started with, not
all emails, not institutions, not we have such such an incredible we
have such an incredible community who is deeply invested in women's
issues, but also can a little bit confused asking questions like
this. But when we look at Islamic history, Dr Akram, Nadu, Chef,
Akram has put out so much research on this issue, and he has
completed the work that followed up, I should say, on the work that
is already there by our scholars like Ibn Hajar and
a sahawi and a Suki and so many of our scholars who have outlined how
women were playing critical roles of scholarship in their own time
periods. So, for example, Imam Malik his teacher, one of his
teachers was the daughter of Saad ibn Abi Waqas. Well, you Allahu
alaihima Uh,
Imam, Imam ashefari his one of his teachers was Sayyidina FISA, the
great granddaughter of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wasallam. We
have a.
Um
kiriman marwazia, who was the greatest Hadith scholar of so he
al Bukhari, who taught al Khatib, Al Baghdadi, and we have Ibn Hajar
and a number of other scholars speaking about not just one or two
of their teachers, but in the 50s and the 60s, like six. I believe
it was 53 for Ibn Hajar and 68 for Imam sahali. Ibn Ibn Al Qayyum was
taught by Fatima Al khair and Fatima Al Fayer, Fatima Al fayed.
There's a narration of her coming to Medina with a Syrian caravan.
And you know where she sat to teach Hadith. Was actually where
the Prophet sallallahu, alayhi wa sallam was buried. If you go now
to visit the Rolla, you can see that there's like a gate that
covers the area of the of the of the grave of the Prophet
sallallahu a Salam. The description mentioned is that she
sat with her back on there, which now unfortunately, asta alumna and
I cannot even visit the restrictions for women. We cannot
even see that as part of the masjid that's closed off for us.
And that's not always the case. I spoke to someone who grew up in
Saudi she's in her 60s now. She said that when she was a young
girl, she could run through the whole entire Masjid. There was not
a single barrier up. And so even when we talk about what that looks
like, and this is not a discussion of barriers versus non barriers.
Both are amazing and both are wonderful, and depending on the
community and what is needed. But the point simply is that this
Sheikha was teaching from this spot, and a woman today would not
even know what that spot looked like, simply because of whatever
reason. That's not necessarily Islamic law. It's simply the
practice right now, but the point is she would teach from there. And
a sukki talks about how his his son and a number of other scholars
received their ijazah from her by hand. Omid darda a sutra she was
teaching in mashallah Aqsa, like it's talked about as the Dome of
the Rock that she was sitting there teaching. And then she would
walk with the Khalifa at the time, Abdul Marwan, and go to pray the
Salah. We have sittal uzra, who was invited from Syria to Cairo to
lecture hundreds of men and women. And these stories are, are
constant. I mean,
I was at Asmaa the volumes upon volumes that Dr akmanetta We has
published, takes all of these from all of our sources, our traditions
of the past, and puts them into an easy way for us to read that there
were
so many 1000s of women who were scholars in our history. So when
we're talking about, you know, women becoming those who speak
about these issues, women teaching, women learning, we're
not this is not a quote, unquote, progressive liberal feminist call.
This is a return to our tradition. Yes, and how that looks like needs
to be discussed within each community of a community only
wants women, and including the women of that community, only want
women to teach women that is what should be done. We need to look at
the specific community and see what that community would most
benefit from. But when we're looking at the numbers of women
leaving and they cite their reasoning back to the fact that
they don't see women in the masjid space, that they don't feel like
their needs are being addressed, that they feel the burden of
judgment and shame and guilt for simply existing as women. We know
we are very far from the Sunnah of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi was
salam in which the scholarship of Asha ra put and the woman
companions around her was the basis for which we have women
teachers all the way until today. Thank you. Esteva Lubna, what
needs to change? First and foremost, having women involved in
all of our institutions is extremely important because you
have half of the entire the half of the entire world's population.
How would you want that excluded from your narrative when you're
trying to make programming, when you're trying to provide services,
when you're trying to understand how Islam needs to move forward in
the you know, in America, in the West, in the entire world, right?
So you need to have women representation doesn't have to be
forced. It doesn't have to be something that's awkward, but
really understanding with intention and making it an
inclusive space and all of our institutions, I think that's very
important, because with that extra perspective, you'll say, okay, and
these are some of the services that we need with the lens of what
girls, young, young women and what women need. This is what a space
should look like. This is what programming needs when we have
something really basic, like, if you want men and women to come to
a particular program about something important that's going
on the community, whether it's family related, whether it's
political related, one way to make it facilitate for women to come is
to provide, you know, childcare or to provide a youth program at the
same time. You know, this is just a super small example. Um.
Um, so, first and foremost, we want to expand inclusiveness in
all of our institutions. Women, you know, having women come in in
leadership.
Um, second, something that I think is very powerful. Look at all the
amazing things that was said that Miriam just mentioned about our
history. You know, most of us don't know, including myself,
don't, you know, didn't know to that level of detail.
Subhanallah, you know, there's one thing about misrepresenting
aspects of women in Islam that's damaging to young girls, but by by
extension, by not mentioning, by not mentioning, the amazing role
that women have had in Islam and in the in the variety of aspects
of society that they were involved in the variety of aspects in
Islamic history that they were involved by extension, you also
are not uplifting girls, their view of themselves, their value,
not only in society, but specifically in Islam. But
actually they get a sense of devalue, a sense that they are
something lesser than a lot of times when we hear stories of the
Sira again, or we hear in khutbahs again, maybe somebody who's not
always the most learned is the one that takes the stand, and that's
not a dish on all of our amazing learned scholars, both male and
female. But sometimes, what happens those people take up those
positions? They're giving a speech, they're giving a lecture.
And if we're constantly being excluded from Islamic history, if
we're constantly excluded from the Sira, that's going to have a big
impact. So what's the positive on that? We need to remember to
always try to include, yes, do more research, bring in speakers
and scholars that have a more a deeper understanding of, you know,
translation of ayat, of context with a hadith, so on and so forth.
So expanding our knowledge is something that's really important.
Those are the first two that come to mind. I'd love to hear more
from USADA Mariam. One of the things that I really learned in
the journey of making Claudia, which is the woman purad reciters
up, which I'm giving a shameless plug for, is for free. You can
download it. It's a it's for women, a woman reciters app. One
of the reasons that one of the things I learned for is in the
process, is that I started interacting with women and a lot
of other countries who are professional Quran reciters. And
these women in Malaysia, Indonesia and Singapore and Morocco, Algeria
in Yemen, in in the Gambia, in Nigeria, in different parts of
either Muslim majority countries, or sometimes not necessarily
Muslim majority, but has a lot or large Muslim presence. Something I
realized is when women are were seeing themselves as professional
Quran reciters publicly, there was never a question of whether or not
the Quran was for women. And so, like women in these countries, the
scholars of these countries, they support women reciting publicly
now that discussion is a totally different fifth discussion, not
one for today. And you can read a full fifth discussion on the
difference of opinion of scholars on our website, Q, A, R, I, a, H,
dot, A, P, P, but the point of the statement is that there are
scholars who are in these countries who recite with and who
teach women, and who are taught by women, that women can recite the
Quran in these ways where they are seen by other women very
accessibly. Now I'm talking about on television and in competition.
So there is this is this is their norm. Now, when I'm speaking with
women here, when I'm speaking with little girls, and they're asking,
Why can't women be a Quran reciters, or telling me, as a 50
year old grandmother that she drove four hours away from another
city because she heard from one of her friends who attended the event
in the city that I had been in the night previously in the UK, that
for the first time in her entire life, she heard a woman reciting
the Quran so she should go to the event. And as a 50 year old
grandmother, she came, she listened to me reciting, and she
wept and said, I had no idea a woman could even recite the Quran
like this. And how do I start memorizing it now? How do I start
at 50? What do I What do I do? Those stories are stories I hear
constantly. So these are not just two. They're not two. Example,
these are the stories of Muslim women in the West that I hear from
all the time, from their daughters, who have been asking,
why do we never listened to girls reciting the Quran. Mom like, why
don't we ever hear them? And what I noticed when we created clariah
is those same women have come to me and told me, now they're little
girls who are 10, who are 12, are telling them, I want to be a
clariah. I want to memorize the Quran, and I want to recite the
Quran. And for me, this shift tells me that we hear when we're
able to see ourselves as women in these spaces, just for women here
in the West, we can just we can events of women, rasa Quran for
women, PMS of women, praying with women, competitions of women with
women, when we are able to create those alternatives.
If we're not going to have the normative spaces that they have in
these Muslim majority countries where a woman this is simply their
norm, and it's not a big deal in any way because they're scholar
supported. It's what they've grown up with, those those Arias that
I've spoken with, those hafillahs, those sheikahs who I've spoken
with in those other countries. When I asked them, when did they
start, they all tell me, Oh, when I was three years old and my dad
would teach Maka mat, oh, when I was in elementary school, and I
went to school, and we had the choice between home, EK or Quran.
And not just Quran, Quran for competition. Quran for for for
like recitation. It's not simply I'm memorizing quietly in my room,
and then when recite to my shift, this is a different form of
perfection, with the power of the recitation. Why am I mentioning
these examples? Because when we look at other countries who have
you know historically been Muslim majority countries for hundreds of
years, we can see the impact of how this model looks like on a
population. And then we can look at us in the West as a more
budding Muslim majority Muslim minority, particularly in the
immigrant community, and look at what, what aspects of of this
practice of Islam can we bring to our community that we think and
our scholars feel and we talk about as with our flip councils
would be best For our sisters. How do we create these alternative
spaces so that sisters feel like they have a space where they feel
like they are loved and centered and nourished and nurtured, while
at the same time rebuilding trust in in our incredible men?
Scholarship, you know, I've heard a lot of women say, well, we just
don't trust men scholars, I don't believe those rulings because men
made them in the first place. No, as we talked about, men and women
were taught by one another throughout history. What we see
now is a compilation of centuries of men's scholarship who were also
taught by women and also taught women. So our voices have been a
part of these rulings from the time of the Prophet sallallahu,
alayhi wa sallam, and now what we can do is acknowledge that we have
a very serious crisis of faith, and we can see that perhaps what
we've done in the past is not working for our current
generation. So what do we need to do to reassess and and do so
completely within the boundaries and the standards of Islamic law.
We have that example already there. And Alhamdulillah, we have
that example in so many, so many spaces which have, you know, their
own issues, of course, too, when it comes to Muslim women and
access and all of that. But what about in scholarship? What about
in women seeing themselves in these spaces? So if I'm hearing
you correctly, Osta Mariam and what needs to happen within our
communities, at the very, very least, is representation of Muslim
women within our institutions. And if that can't happen for whatever
reason, then at least they're involved in the decision making so
that they can facilitate, so communities can facilitate an
engagement and inclusion of Muslim women that's at the kind of bare
minimum. Is that a fair kind of summation, the bare minimum, I
would say, you know, that's fair the representation, but then also
making sure to present the the, you know, the holistic view of
Islam, which always includes women, what happened in history,
the fact that they were teachers, you know, a holistic view of what
marriage looks like, you know, all of those kinds of things. And
finally, seeing women, leaders like salamani was mentioning
seeing women Claudia, seeing women speakers, giving space for women
to show that, yes, there is a place in Islam for their
scholarship and their leadership. Honestly, we could speak for for
many more hours on this topic. And I have to say, as a father of two
Muslim women, your passion, your enthusiasm, is contagious, and I'm
glad that they're going to have role models like yourselves, and
Inshallah, male role models who who propagate the inclusion of
Muslim women. Normally, we ask a very simple question at the end of
every episode, and that is, if my nine year old niece, hugely has a
has a question for our guests, I'm going to do something a little
different this time my nine year old niece and my nine year old
nephew,
since we have two guests, they rock up and they ask you both,
we'll start with you. Lubna,
my nine year old niece asks you,
how am I to be ready for the challenges facing Muslim women?
Very good. I would tell this young lady that know that your value
comes from Allah. First and foremost, there's going to be so
much noise in this world, family judgment, societal judgment,
community judgment, all kinds of noise that's going to interfere
with how you view your value and when we look to Allah and look
that our value comes from him. First and foremost, for both men
and for women, it.
Says at ease in the akrama Kumar in the LoHi at qaqum, that the
most noble of you, in the eyes of Allah, is the one who has most
Taqwa is the one that's most God conscious. So I would tell her,
Look to Allah as you look for guidance, and that you'll be able
to push all that other noise that will cloud your way
inshallah. And ustava Miriam, my nephew comes to you and says, what
role do I play in helping facilitate an Islamic environment
for my sister?
May Allah. Bless you so so much. I would love for you to ask your
sisters how they feel when they go into a masjid, or maybe your
cousins, or maybe your mom, and ask them, What are ways that you
can help the masjid, even nice, being even nicer and even better
for them when they go to the masjid. You're nine, so Masha,
Allah, you are starting to pray, Allah, and Inshallah, you're going
to the masjid with your dad or your uncle or someone who is with
you, and you might be seeing that the masjid looks a certain way
that maybe you, you you want to be able to help with, but you, you
can ask for the advice of the girls in your family or the women
in your family to see what specifically would help them.
Because, you know, you might come and visit me in California, and it
might be very different from you in Australia. So being able to ask
the sisters around you, your actual sisters, what you can do to
help them is so wonderful. And please make dua. Always make dua
that Allah helps our Ummah, that Allah, that Allah protects our our
ummah. And may Allah bless you so much. And I just realized that I
spoke to you as if you were actually
nine. So I apologize.
I'll clip that and send it to my nine year old. I have enough
nephews and nieces to last me a lifetime, so sometimes when I say
so, we're going to change gears a very different rapid fire segment.
Now what I'll do is ask a very quick question, expecting a very,
very quick answer inshallah from you. Both will toggle between the
the two others,
and if you like to pass, you're able to pass you're you're able to
hand one question over to the other guest, okay, if you're
stuck, but only one. I'll start with
ustadha Meriam, because this is her first double take. First of
many. Inshallah, your favorite reciter of the Quran, Abdul basil.
I mean, yeah, I saw that coming.
What's the last book you are reading?
The last book I'm reading is on emotional intelligence.
And Mariam the last book you were reading
a House panel. I've been working on a manuscript. And so I'm
reading like 15 books at a time. I at a time. They're all they're all
in Arabic about Islamic law. So the general genre,
you both, you both lived in Egypt, so any one of you can answer this
question, fool or falafel.
Fool falafel.
We love the nature together, together,
amazing, like actually we saw each other during the time. We are true
companion.
What was the most difficult episode of upheld by Allah, the
series that you just recorded. Oh yes, the most difficult one was
the one
esia Ade Salam. It was the first one, and I had to get out the
jitters, maybe for like 45 minutes just kind of messing up and
fumbling
along. Truly an honor. If you could have,
if you could have dinner with anyone in history who is not the
Prophet, who would it
be? Asmaa bint mais will be Anna?
Why? I have to ask why,
uh, Asmaa tarmes will be lafayana, for so many reasons, she made
hijra with the the during the first Hijra to Abyssinia, and then
she made Hijrah again to Medina, many years later. And there's this
narration of her sitting with the daughter of Ahmed, Ali, lafayan
and Huma and Hafsah. And Ahmad walks in, and he doesn't recognize
us then, so he's like, Who is this and and then Hafsa explains that
who she is. And then he realizes, Oh, it's Asmaa been to race. And
so then Asmaa steps in, because they're talking to each other at
this time. And she steps in, she's like, like, yes, that's who she
is.
And then Ahmad Ali lahon, who he basically says something to the
effect of, we got.
We got here first. We were the Prophet sallallahu Sallam first.
And therefore we have more of a right to the Prophet sallallahu
alayhi wa sallam than you do, because it had been years, about
seven years from the time that they made the initial picture with
the Prophet sallallahu sallam. And then she came from abusinia. Many
years later, she was she felt a little bit she became angry with
his response. And then she went to the Prophet sallallahu sallam,
after telling Ahmad Ali Allahu Anhu that she's she's that you
were here being fed and protected like taught by the Prophet
sallallahu sallam, and I'm going to tell him what you said while we
were in that far away land. I'm going to tell him what you said
without taking away any or adding anything to it. And then she went
to the Prophet, saw him, and this is when the Prophet sallallahu
alayhi wa sallam said that not for Omar and his companion. His
companions is one migration, and for her and her companions,
there's two migrations. I'm making the Hadith super short, just
because I know at the end and then Abu Musha Ari and a number of
other companions, excuse me, kept coming to her asking over and over
for the narration of this hadith. This is one of many instances of
Asmaa, Birmingham's life. She was married to JAF who was martyred
rodiella. Then she was married to Abu Bakr radi upon, who and then
after his passing, and she took care of him in his passing, and
she washed his body after his passing. Then she married AGI radi
upon, so her story, which honestly parallels the incredible woman
companions there are so amazing Pamela like that, many, many, many
aspects of her faith, her early conversion, the strength to be
able to to speak back to someone who Shaytan was intimidated by.
And we love, Omala. I know he's promised paradise. He's one of our
greatest examples. But even in that moment, like knowing who he
is, I mean me, I would have ran the other way, like, please make
to offer me. I'm so sorry for offending you for my presence. But
like Pamela, may Allah, bless bless her, the way that she spoke
brought so much comfort, so much comfort to the entire community of
the entire community of migrants who came from Abyssinia like this,
this, this small community now came back to this hadith, and it
was glad tidings for them, and it's the basis of so much, so much
understanding in our loss as Panama, I just loved I just love
that moment. And yeah, that's why. One final question for you,
Mariam, you're a second degree black belt in Taekwondo. What?
What led you to that? Okay, I got started because my mother has a
second degree black belt. My aunt does. My uncle has a ninth degree.
My other uncle has a black belt. We have many, many many
blackboards in my family. So you could say this is a family thing.
I got started because my family was into it. I started very young,
and so from the last I trained with my family for a very long
time after receiving the actual Black Belt. Okay? Ustada, Lubna,
I've been in media for the last 10 years. And when I read your bio
and realized that you have a master's in screenwriting
and you have a YouTube channel called Double Shot mocha
productions. Let's just say I was very curious. So question one,
why the name double shot marker productions?
Good question. So I, you know, all of my drinks, I love to have a
double shot of coffee, of espresso in my drinks. I had a partner as
well in the beginning, when I started or after I started, and so
we both, you know the double means that as well, we're both mocha
colored. So you know all of that is behind double shot mocha
productions. And as I said, you have a master's in in
Screenwriting. If there's one story from Islamic history that
you would love to screen. Right?
What story would it
be? I was just And since you're on, since you're on the board of,
since you're on the board of yakin, how are you going to
facilitate it?
I would love to do that. Oh, so. Pana recently came to my mind that
this would make a really good movie,
for lack of that memory. At the moment, another one that comes to
mind is
the Battle of the Trench. I would, I think that would be an amazing,
amazing visual and story. Subhanallah, thank you very much
for your time today. You are very passionate advocates of the
inclusion of Muslim women in the community. I appreciate it, and
I'm sure many Muslim women are indebted to your work, JazakAllah
and Muslim men and Muslim families. So thank you so much for
your time, and Inshallah, we'll see you again on double take,
JazakAllah for highlighting the topic baracolophico.