Mansoor Danish – Understanding Share Market and Shariah Compliance
AI: Summary ©
The speakers emphasize the importance of shamai compliance and regulations in trading, emphasizing the need for practice and compliance with regulations to avoid misunderstandings and privacy in the stock market, including the use of Sharia boards and global compliance standards. They also emphasize the importance of educating people on the benefits of mutual funds and cryptocurrencies, as well as avoiding debt and investing in commodities. The speakers emphasize the need for a more stringent approach to calculating risk and avoiding debt, while also highlighting the importance of learning about a cryptocurrency program and helping entrepreneurs grow their businesses.
AI: Summary ©
Hi
okay Bismillah R Rahman r Rahim Al hamdu lillah wa salatu wa salam ala Rasulillah. I welcome you all to a brand new session this week, inshallah hookah Allah, we are going to be joined in by a very special guests to speak on the subject of sharemarket. Before we invite our guests to make his presentation, and before we ask him the several questions that we have received about sharemarket about the Sharia compliance, let me just quickly introduce to you the VBA webinar, we started the VBA webinar more than a month back. And the objective behind starting this webinar was the current pandemic, how the things are changing how the business laws are changing how the way we conduct our
business has completely changed ever since the pandemic broke out. As the business stopped. Well, it has temporarily for some, but people are coming up with new innovative ideas to do businesses. Through these business webinar, which is brought to you by the Department of Business Administration, which is headed by me. We are trying to share with all of you about the new business practices, the new business laws, how do we communicate better in the current scenario? How can we better manage our jobs, working from home? What about people who've lost their job? How can I start a simple business sitting at home? At the same time, the economic globally is taking a downturn. In
a situation like this. If you are an investor who has invested in the stock market, is it advisable to stay invested? Or should I withdraw my investments? Well, as far as your investments are concerned today, we are hopeful to get some answers to our questions.
The guests that we have today for our discussion is Mr Ashraf Mohammadi Mr Ashraf Mohammed he started the Darfur investments or is alpha investments in 1994 in Mumbai, the financial capital of India and for the last 26 years, Mr. Mohammadi has been offering Sharia compliant based services.
Investors are allowed to invest into the share market, but they get an added advantage that they are advised along Sharia guidelines, which are the Sharia compliant stocks? How can you purge your returns and so on and so forth, which are the halal options where you can invest, how can you do your financial planning? And there are a lot of questions he must have faced in these last 26 years, many of which we intend to ask Mr. Mohammadi today. So without further ado, Mr. Mohammadi, I would like to welcome you as salam aleikum wa rahmatullah wa salam rahmatullah wa barakato JSOC Allahu khairan for having been here. Masha Allah Baraka, la vie, Mr. Mohammed, these association with me
also goes back close to more than 10 years now, mashallah in 2010. I also had started a small franchise of Darfur investments in Kolkata, before I went on to further my studies in my post graduation, so I have had an opportunity to be associated with the Darfur investments, and with Mr. Mohammadi, so it is an honor Mr. Mohammadi to have you over today for the Islamic online university, which by the way now is called the International Open University. We call the International Open University. I also would like to remind before we get started asking questions to Mr. mamady, the admission process at the IOU is currently on. And we invite the listeners who are listening to this
program today to consider joining some of the several programs that the IU offers. Apart from the business administration program. We've got programs on education, psychology, Islamic banking, and finance, as well as Islamic Studies and Arabic. There is a host of programs that we offer, please remember to visit the website and check out which are the programs which suit your requirement.
Okay, let's get things rolling. And I would request all of you to keep sending in your questions in the chat box. Any one of you has any question, please send it in, send it to us in the chat box. Mr. mamady The most basic question. The most basic question is, is it permissible to invest in the share market and how does share market work? Can you please give us some light on that? All right. Yeah. So that's a that's the very basic question.
We can call it the FAQ every conversation with me with a new customer or a person seeking to invest begins with that, that how is it allowed to invest in the stock market?
Is the voice here Do I need to?
Is it clear?
Yeah, it's clear just be a little loud inshallah. Inshallah, right. So
now the whole idea of stock market investments share market investments began with the time that John's joint stock companies came into existence, right, the whole industrial revolution, mega facilities, mega factories, large, you know, production facilities, etc. And all of that required a lot of capital, which was out of reach of the leading entrepreneurs of the world. And that's how they went and went to the public went to the people, and asked them to join them as shareholders that path partners or shareholders, and that's how people started joining in, in those joint stock companies, and the whole process of investment began.
Now in this process,
when whenever something new comes up, Muslim investors, rightly so go straight away to the lemma to the scholars to seek an opinion whether this is allowed or not, right. And those days as well, people went to the scholars to find out if this can be done. And the scholars analyze the whole situation in this area, these are Profit and Loss sharing companies. And if these Profit and Loss sharing companies are doing activities, which are halal, so if they're into manufacturing of cars, and textile and steel, or whatever, then it's perfectly fine to invest in them. If they are into haram activities, like banking and manufacturing of liquor and cigarettes, etc, then it's not
allowed. So based on that basic opinion, people started investing in India all the way back 140 years ago, even earlier in the United States, etc. So that is how the whole process of stock market investments started. Of course, there were certain conditions that the scholars put, which made it permissible to invest in the share markets. So as we go ahead, Inshallah, we'll look at the different conditions of how it is actually halal. Right. Okay. All right. Thank you so much for giving us an input on that. Well, again, since you've touched upon this, one of the most basic question that people always ask is, in the current scenario, you know, for example, the economic
that we have around us, many of the scholars have also suggested that in India, for example, or in countries where you do not have an Islamic Sharia, in a country like that, you are not allowed to do investments, because those companies, those joint stock companies, which you're referring to, they would probably be not following Sharia guidelines in terms of the operation in terms of the lending. And these are issues which come up in the mind. So some of the scholars suggest it's better to stay away, don't get your money invested into these companies, right, what is your advice to such investors, right. So,
referring back to the scholars,
the consensus amongst the scholars by and large, all the scholars across the world, and they regularly meet in Jeddah and Islamic faith Academy and so on, but consensus
of which eventually became the standards for all financial transaction practices. The consensus is that with certain conditions investments can be done in equity shares of companies,
even in secular countries like India and US and or wherever, you know, Russia is not in practice and just a little bit of tweaking in countries like
India and for example, Saudi Arabia etc, where Sharia is present the Islamic banks are present and so on. And in India, countries like India, us were predominantly there are conventional banks and Islamic banking is actually non existent over here. So, in those scenarios, the guidelines of the scholars might change a little bit, but generally speaking, there are ways to handle the Haram component in these joint stock companies. And as a result of that, for example, there are more than 7000 companies listed in India and out of the 7000 companies around 1400 or companies are Sharia compliant
And they comply to the Sharia norms where we we, these companies, for example, have their debts in control. So, they do borrow, but they're the condition required by the scholars is that the borrowing should be lesser than certain limits, it should be under control, right, they would keep their money in the bank and earn interest right, but the interest income as compared to the total income has to be below a certain threshold. So, according to some scholars, it should be less than 5% According to other scholars, it should be less than 3%. So, depending on different economies, different financial systems, the percentages would differ. Similarly, there are other financial
ratios, financial criterias that are applied and on top of that, after all these criteria criteria is put in place then comes the whole idea of purification or purging. So, to the extent where these companies have exposure to interest, we as investors need to purge our incomes and you know, make the entire wealth completely purified and halal. So, that is a process that we need to follow. All right, I have a question when you say it should be lesser than certain limits, that is the exposure of the debt
is this relative is there a certain percentage would that percentage vary, how is it decided? Is there any system which is followed? I mean, just from a layman point of view.
Right. So, when it comes to practicing these rules, you know, I practice it as a layman, I'm not a scholar. So, I have the layman's approach to practice these things without really questioning what the scholars have to say yeah, but they do vary for example, there are certain Sharia boats or Sharia scholars who are of the opinion that the debt in a company should be lesser than 33% to the acid or some scholarship lesser than 30% to the market capitalization. There are other scholars who are of the opinion that it should be lesser than 25% to assets or some say market capitalization. So, with different scholars the opinions differ and so, the whole the best idea is to just stick to
a set of scholars a particular Sharia board and just keep following whatever they kind of the guidelines they issue and that works good for example, as far as we are concerned, Rafa investments, we follow the PA advisory tassies The PA advisory is a is a Sharia audit firm based out of Mumbai and it has on its board scholars like Mufti barkatullah from London of the college shuffler Armani from Hyderabad etc. So, these are the scholars now, they know the Indian being from Indian origins, they know the Indian conditions the Indian environment circumstances, and that's how they have given an opinion which is slightly more stringent than the global norms. So if the global norm for
example, for Sharia compliance is 5% is being tolerated when it comes to interest income of a company, the scholars in India they have gone with the opinion that we will tolerate only 3%. Right. And even after following these stringent norms, we have a universe of 1400 Odd companies, which is substantial, which is really large.
Right? You know, when you mentioned about a set of scholars that we need to follow a set of scholars or a Sharia board, this is something which I will come to you a little later, because we do find a lot of differences in opinion. And some of the differences in opinion, has a lot to do with what we call the customs or the practices of a certain country. But we'll come to that a little later. Let's go moving on with the idea of share market, you mentioned that the scholars have permitted investment into share market in the form of equity buying of equity. And as we know when you buy equity shares, you become a owner of a company by the percentage holding that you have. Now my next
question to you is
is it just simply buying shares? Is that is that the only form of investment that is allowed in share market? Or are there different ways of investing into the share market and which is allowed and which is not allowed? I think it would be a little broad based so maybe you could just tell us
a bit a bit of about everyone. Yeah, sure.
So when we talk about the stock market, and so a share market basically forms a part of the stock market. So stock market constitutes of seven things. So to begin with, one of the biggest business that happens on the stock markets
is that of the Treasury notes, government bonds, etc right. So, that forms the bulk of dealings on on the stock market. So, that is what the platform offers equity share investments, where you are, you know kind of trading your partnership in a particular company that happens on the stock market, we also have mutual funds, that gets traded on the stock markets and then there are preferential So, preference share is more like a debt. So, when it comes to the liquidation of a company, it's the the debentures are the creditors in the company who have the first
you know, they get the funds first after winding up of a company then whatever remains goes to the shareholders and even amongst the shareholders, the preference shareholders who get a fixed return on their investment which is haram as well like the the debentures and bonds etc. So, they get the preference in the proceeds when the company is winding up and finally, yeah, the payout and finally, what remains goes to the equity shareholders, right. So, the preference shares get traded the bonds the debentures gets traded,
you have the government bonds that gets traded on the stock markets, you have mutual funds that created that gets traded. And finally, we have the derivative products. So, the derivatives income also we have come up with the separate exchanges for commodities trading. And then there are both equity trading, shares, etc, as well as commodity trading has a concept called derivatives trading. Now, derivatives is
it's a it's a new product, where there is no real transaction happening. But contracts are made based on derived value from the price of different stocks. And that
constitutes certain contracts. And that gets traded. But this since it's not a real thing, and it's more closer to gambling, right. It's not allowed to trade in derivative products, but the other end derivatives,
bonds, debentures, etc preferences, we can only trade in equity shares,
you buy the shares, you sell them, there are other form of trades that happen on the stock markets, like short selling, right, so short selling is a form of intraday trading, where you don't own the shares, but you sell them. And then within the settlement, itself, you buy it back, you square it off, and you make money by selling first and buying later. So you sell high, buy low and make money. So short selling, when you don't have the shares with you, and then you sell it off. That kind of transaction is also haram, it's not allowed. So all of these transactions do happen on the stock markets, we need to be very careful on what kind of investments are we making? And go ahead and you
know, just stick to those.
Okay, I have a question here. Since we were speaking about derivatives, a bit of speculation and everything, a very common thing which comes up in our mind. Again,
stretching the argument on the share market is, isn't it also a form of speculation? If I buy a share, let's say it is one of the 1400 companies, which you say is listed as permissible. If I buy the share of that company, and I wait for the price to move up, let's say from $100 to one $20, I make a 20% margin on it. And then I decide to sell it. Isn't this also a form of speculation?
Right. So there are some forms of
speculations or transactions, which are a board which has not allowed in there are some which are allowed. So if I am, for example, buying
stocks worth $1,000 from the market from the wholesale market, and then I want to sell it in the retail market $4,500, right? I'm not sure if I'll get that 1500 I might just be able to sell it 4000 300,400, but I'm speculating and trying my best to sell it at the best possible retail price. So this wholesale and retail involves speculation at a certain level where you are trying to work out your profit margins. Will you make it or not? There is a huge question mark. Similarly, that kind of trading when you're buying something for $100 on the stock exchange, with a plan to sell it off 100 at $120, etc. You are not sure if you will be able to sell it 120 Maybe you will end up
selling it 150 Maybe 110. So there's that level of taking a calculated risk is there, like risk is there in every kind of transaction. It's there. We're here as well.
But as long as you stick to the norms of Sharia is perfectly allowed.
All right, okay. And I think one of the things that we learned was the concept of AVOD, or equivalent counter value, where both the parties are taking equivalent risk, it can never be an equal risk of option. But even the company takes a risk when it takes your money and it is investing it into different business avenues. And you yourself as an investor, you know that your money being invested with the company stands to either benefit you or the prices of the shares may vary, and that can have an effect on your capital holding. And that's why the Scholars say that it is permitted in situations like this.
Moving on a little bit more on the debt equity, as I see, there's a question which has come in about the debt equity exposure, you mentioned something about the debt exposure. So could you please define what do you mean by debt exposure? With regards to debt to equity? For Sharia compliance purpose, when you say Sharia compliance, that exposure? What exactly do we mean by debt exposure? What kind of an exposure are we talking of? Alright, so generally speaking, when companies need to expand or were in the process of they're working, they need working capital loans, right, they need some certain cash inputs from time to time to carry on before their profits are realized. Right. So
a lot of companies, but there are quite a few companies, especially the IT companies, for example, in India, and globally, they tend to be cash rich, there are a lot of these auto companies who are also cash rich, a lot of oil refining companies are cash rich, so they have a problem of plenty. Whereas generally manufacturing companies, they need to borrow funds, right? So so that's the debt that we are referring to, on an ongoing basis. The short term debt is long term debt, which attracts an accrual of interest. So when it comes to this debt, it's really important, the scholars haven't have a sharp eye on this debt, that how much is the debt. And if it is a bit stretched? If it goes
beyond certain thresholds, then they disallow investing in those companies. How do they look at this debt, they either look at it from a perspective of debt to assets, debt compared to the total assets of the company. That's one way of looking at this debt. Another way of looking at this debt is debt to market capitalization. So they look at all the the complete valuation of all the shares issued by the company, that complete valuation of the company and debt as against that. So they look at that from these two different parameters.
scholars who are more conservative, prefer to go with assets, debt as compared to assets. And that's what we follow as well with taxes. Because those colors, say 25%, as compared to the total assets of the company, if the debt is lower than that you are allowed to invest in the company. If it's higher than 25%, then you're not allowed to. So so that is a more stringent, more conservative opinion. And that's what we refer to debt to equity is another parameter that we need to look into while assessing a company whether a company is worthy of investment or not. So it's always ideal that the debt should be under control. It should not be greater than, ideally not more than the equity etc.
But then that's a different parameter that we look at. While we are doing the calculation, whether the company is is it appropriate to invest in the company or not? Purely from a financial perspective, from a Sharia perspective, debt to assets, or debt to market cap is what we are looking at. Okay. I have a question which is bothering me. Now, before we take some more question. I need to understand the rationale behind not including debt.
If debt is not permissible,
for example, if I have to invest in Company A, and Company A has taken debt, and let's say it has a debt of 50%. How does it make a difference to me as an investor, whether he has taken a 50% debt or a 33% debt or a 25% debt? How does it make a difference? Because the company is not giving out loans. It's taken loan. Maybe it's because of the situation they are living in, in a country where they can't expand themselves. So in a situation like this, is it therefore permissible? I mean, what's your opinion?
So when it comes to debt, it's not that debt is not permissible in business debt. You
is fine, what is probably the problem that we are essentially trying to address is interest based debt. Right. And so if you, if it were it were a company in,
say, an Islamic country where there are Islamic banks. And if the company goes to one of those Islamic banks and
borrows funds, that's, that's perfectly fine. Right? There would be a different threshold to monitor those companies. But here, what we are essentially looking at is interest based debt that has been looked at very critically, right. And that's how the 25% criteria and all of that comes into play. So generally speaking, to expand debt is permissible, although at a personal level, it is not a good idea. So when we are when we are doing financial planning kinds of activities, then we would just ask people to go get get rid of the debt ASAP personal debt, because that's not a desirable thing. And there are a lot of these, which talks about the profit slice, I'm not praying the janazah, and
so on. Right. So so that's a different thing. But when it comes to companies, debt is something that as you rightly said, is required, but we are looking at interest based debt critically.
Okay, all right, because the way I'm trying to look at it is, as a business, if I'm doing a business with someone who's got an exposure, then what what should be my precaution, which I should take, and I think one of the things which you mentioned is a that you people are looking at a very stringent system, where you are looking at, for example, some scholarship 33%, some say 25%, some are even more stringent. So a you are looking at a very stringent process and be there is a system of purging so that whatever exposure you might have had in terms of interest income, which might have come into your profits, you're also ensuring that is moved out. So not only are you looking at it from the
liabilities point of view, you're looking at it from the asset point of view as well. Both the sides are being protected.
Okay, here's another question. You mentioned about the 7000 companies, which are listed. Is there any company out of this 7000 which do not have any debt? There are a few companies? Yeah, as I mentioned, a lot of these IT companies, auto companies,
they do not have any kind of in fact, they are so cash rich that we have a problem of plenty. And some of these companies get, you know, get screened out, because they have substantial interest income. Right. So because of the interest income, they get screened out. So that's the problem that we have to deal with. Okay. Yes, there are. So if I, if I heard you correctly, you just said that it's not only about companies which do not have which have debt companies which do not have debt at all, there are chances they may be screened out because there's a high percentage of interest income. That's right. Yeah. So Bajaj Auto in India, which is one of the largest auto automotive
companies here that it has this kind of problem, Larsen and Toubro is another huge infrastructure company in India, perfectly fine, all the activities are alright. But then they have a similar situation, they had so much cash, both these companies, they had so much cash, that they had to spin off another finance company, and as a result of that, both of them are non compliant. Right. And we have similar stories from Okay, the Western countries as well.
All right, all right. And where can we get this 1400 companies the list which you said, of Sharia compliant companies? And do these lists get updated regularly? Because every quarter there are reports coming out in many countries, for example, in India, you have these 1400 Sharia compliant companies. So this question is from India specific? If an Indian is watching this, where can you get a list of 1400 companies? Do you people provide it at ID Alpha? Yeah, so at Delphi investments, we do have a service where people can call in and they can or they can write to us, and we'll help them with the stocks that they are interested in, whether they are Sharia compliant or not. But there are
service providers like the one that I mentioned why advisory? And then there is there are other providers like Islamically, and Islamic investor. So these are different service providers who for a small subscription, they would provide this these kinds of lists. And in India, the list gets updated on a monthly basis. So tassies, for example, on a monthly basis, okay.
All right.
Do we need to pay something for this? Yeah, there is a subscription fee involved for this. So all of these service providers, they have different rates, different charges. Okay. So those who are viewing this, they can also visit the Alpha website
and contact with alpha for details on this.
Yeah, sorry, you were saying something? Yeah. For example, there is this
was called Islamic l y Islamically, which is an app based service available both on Android as well as iOS. And this. It offers its services not only for the Indian markets, but global all the global markets. So you have for Dow Jones and Sharia and ISIS within all those markets. So that's a very good service and very well priced as well.
But okay, we will move into mutual funds as well, a little later, sorry, Mr. mamady was saying something.
Now, what I had mentioned was that
they Islamically, for examples follows the more moderate view 5% 33% and the works. But nonetheless, that is the view that is available, and people can follow that as well if they wish to. Okay. All right. Thank you so much. Now, we will take up questions on mutual funds as well, a little later, we'll try to see if we can get in some questions on unit link plans as well. There are a lot of investments into insurance companies where a portion of investment is done in the share market. We'll come to that a little later. There is some more questions which are coming in. This is regarding again, short selling, I think the answer is very obvious. But I'll still pose the
question. Mr. This is Matthew, Matthew, John, he wants to know, short selling in India is only in the form of intraday. But in the United States, you can short sell for more than a day. In a situation like this. Would it be permissible to short borrow shares and buy it back?
A day later?
So in India, you're right, absolutely right, that it's intraday itself, but in other markets where it's possible to go beyond a settlement, etc. The whole issue with short selling from a Sharia perspective is that you cannot sell what you do not possess. Right, and by virtue of borrowing it, and even that involves interest payment and so on. So, that scenario that's not allowed short selling, per se is not allowed. But let me tell you short selling is a very powerful strategy to make money, right. So now if I have some long term holdings, right, as a strategy, you know, going short, and then buying it low, maybe intraday or over a period time because I'm holding the shares,
right? So as a strategy doing that on an ongoing basis, is something that we are really upbeat about and that's something that we train our investors to do. So, as a strategy short selling in a Sharia compliant fashion can be done very powerfully, but without the shares going short is not allowed. So, you need to know the difference. And you if you have the right kind of knowledge, money can be made going short.
Okay, where do we get the knowledge from? So, is there some kind of trading institution which provides the knowledge or is it Darfur doing? I think you are offering something in the Azadi platform, Azadi, which means freedom, so, freedom from what? Anyway, it's a key word as Daddy. So, you know, it starts trending everywhere. So, what is this Azadi all about? Could you share about the Azadi school for financial freedom? Yeah, so, we set that up about four years back, you know, so all these years 20 plus years that I was into, you know, promoting stock market activities, etc, we realize that we haven't really made a dent you know, people are not investing Muslims are just not
and then we realized that leave alone Muslims, even non Muslims 97% of India is comfortable with their fixed deposits and bonds and bank accounts and so on. And that's when we realized that the awareness is missing, right. And that's when we started offering these other the courses, free seminars, etc. The whole idea is to go to the nooks and crannies of the country and inform people about what is financial freedom in the first place, right. So, as I whenever I talk about Azadi, it goes with a disclaimer, we are not talking about Kashmir, neither are we talking about
there is a person in India called Kanhaiya Kumar. So, so, we are not talking about either of that form of Azhari. What we are talking about is absolutely focused financial freedom, right. And this has been a great initiative and through these, we have had several training programs on stock market investments. And it is in those training programs. It's a three day program, followed by three months of practical training. So, three days full day workshops, three months of practical training, in that
But we go into the details of how to go about investing, trading, and creating another stream of passive income.
Basically, to get that freedom, financial freedom ASAP. Okay, we will come up with the dates of the next program a little later. We'll share it with all of you. So please stay tuned in and keep sending in your questions. There's a question which has come in, and it has to do again, with the issue of awareness. When you mentioned the 97% of the people, let's say in our country, here in India, are not aware whether they are from the Muslim community or from the non Muslim community.
What do you think is the reason behind this lack of awareness? I can share with you Mr. mamady When I was working with the HSBC bank, in my earlier,
you know, assignment before I started in Darfur, before I took up with you, you know, the franchise operation in Kolkata. So in my prior working experience, I noticed when I used to go to Muslim clients, they would be hesitant to invest in mutual funds, because they were not sure whether it is Sharia compliant. The moment I went to them with alpha investments, they were hesitant to invest because they didn't want to give their money.
What what is what explains this hesitancy, right? So again, it's it's ignorance, the lack of knowledge, you know, just to compare this issue. So when I said 97% of India, doesn't invest in the equity markets, mutual funds, etc, they are very happy with their conventional form of investments, right.
And in comparison 65% of for example, United States, right 65% of investors in the United States prefer this, and the rest invest in the conventional forms of interest based investments. So the whole issue over here is with respect to the lack of knowledge.
And then there have been certain episodes, a huge scam is actually in India, which led to this erosion of confidence, right, people are not confident about the financial markets over a year, because year after year, you know, every decades, there are a couple of huge camps, which takes away billions of dollars worth of investor money, it goes down the drain. So we had in the early 90s, the Harshad Mehta scam in the late 90s. Okay, and Patrick scam, we had a few other scams on the way very recently, we had a few scams. And as a result of that, again, and again, investors get into that cycle where they lose money, and they run away from the financial markets. So that is one aspect.
And besides that, irrespective of all of that if people have the right kind of knowledge, they would still go ahead and invest because this is one of the best opportunities available, and especially for Muslims, where they can invest in a Sharia compliant manner and then earn Halal income. So, you know, one of the things which I have personally also experienced and I keep getting these kinds of question is, people lose their faith, because of their past experience. So they've had experiences with institutions which have approached them with offering them Halal returns. And in this regard, for example,
this is not unique to India, I have been reading that these things have been happening even in the United Arab Emirates. It's happened in UK, it's happened in India, where two prominent institutions, they started as offering Halal returns, but they eventually turned out to be Ponzi schemes. And immediately what happens is, these institutions, they get in a few scholars to back them. And so they give it a very Islamic image. And then the moment someone comes up with something which is genuinely offering them Sharia Compliance Services, people don't trust trust becomes an issue. Have you had to suffer because of institutions in and around you which have cropped up because you've
been here, mashallah, for the last 26 years, so you must have seen so many of them come and go, has that dented your size of operation because many people would have probably held their money back instead of investing with alpha. Absolutely, that this is something that we've been observing time and again, so right from my early days, when I got into this career, we saw several such players, you know, from Delhi from Hyderabad, and
people would just disappear with a lot of money and serious money and that
would take us back by at least a decade, one huge episode of that nature. And we are kind of taken aback by a decade in terms of the investor confidence. And now we have to start from the scratch. So I think that's what we've been doing all our life, I've stopped calling myself a business, I say, we are a non government organization kind of concern. You know, the only thing that we do is making people aware of the right kind of investments, maybe a few years down the line, a few decades down the line, maybe we'll start making money, but at the moment, it's just like a nonprofit that we are operating. So we have to start right from the scratch, educating people getting them to, you know,
get their confidence back. And then
when they are back on their feet, there's another scam which takes place like like the ones you mentioned. So it's been a tough job doing this, but
I come from, as you already know, from a from a Java background, and that has made things easy for me because for me, this is Java, keep working, and Inshallah, the rewards will be from Allah subhanaw taala mashallah, mashallah Baraka? Luffy? Okay, we take some more questions, there is a question which says, Is it allowed to trade with companies, which is dealing with Jewish clients, or Jewish companies itself? And I think the second part of the question links, the first part you should we stop trading with companies, which are helping banks grow in the Indian market. Now, I would understand when you say banks, most of the banks, global banks, they are run by Jewish
institutions and organizations and individuals. So, the question is, is it allowed to trade with companies dealing with Jewish clients, or Jewish companies itself? And I think there is an element of what's happening in the Middle East politics, that is also involved, you know, the emotions. So, what's your view on this? And we're looking at a non emotional answer, mostly, from the Sharia point of view. Inshallah. Yeah, that's right. So, for anything of this nature, we need to go back and look at the life of the prophets, Allah salah. And did he deal with the Jews? Yes, he did. Right? He was doing business with the Jews, he was buying arms from them, he was buying his grocery and stuff from
them, right? So he was dealing with the Jews, there was no, there's no problem with that, per se.
We also need to draw a line between the Jewish community and the Z honest community. So the whole Middle Eastern problem Israel, etc. That's a completely different subject and an issue, which is all got to do with Xian ism rather than Judaism. So Judaism is the kind of
a garb which has been put on but actually, it's the Xian ism that's going on behind this. So dealing with Jewish community and Jewish traders, businesses, etc. That's not a problem, as long as they are fair in their dealings, etc, that's perfectly fine. And that goes for any kind of any other communities in the world. From a Sharia perspective, there is nothing wrong with that, yes, if we know very clearly that there are certain companies which are causing havoc and anarchy around the world. And if you are able to identify such companies, for example, the Sharia scholars are absolutely clear that you cannot deal with defense companies from the United States, mainly from the
United States, of course, Israel and United States and all of the So, you cannot buy shares of defense companies from the United States, because they have a huge role in purpose trading war across the world, right. So, so, that is very clear. So, we need to be aware of those things. And when it comes to the second part of companies, which are supporting banks and the banking system and so on. So, again, we need to look at each company separately, each company, when you look at the formation and structure of the company, corporate, each company is a separate legal entity. So I am a person if I form a company, that company is another legal person, right? Now, we have to look at
both the things, both things separately. So if the company is doing right, and if it's backed by a wrong person, in the sense, someone who's got evil agenda, then the company is fine, but that person is wrong. So all that kind of segregation and, you know, we have to look things from a very focused individual perspective, rather than connecting things and confusing it. Right. Banks as such, you're not supposed to deal with banks. But for example, just to just to give a bit more clarity to this, there are a lot of IoT companies in India, who, whose main business is servicing banking companies, right? So they make banking soft
whereas they make systems processes, they run their call centers, etc. So how do you deal with these IT companies? So, now the scholars have a way of looking at it. Some of the scholars, they say that if these companies so these IT companies per se, aren't banking companies, what are they doing, they have their people who apply their minds, create software, and the software can be used by whoever. But if now, these companies, majority of the income comes from banking software, then in those situations, you look at these companies a bit critically. But then they do banking, they do retail, they do other kinds of services. And in that scenario, that's fine. So most of the software
companies in India would fit into that bracket, where they do service, all kinds of industries. But then there are a couple of companies, which are exclusively financial software companies. So you, you we we look at it from a negative perspective. Okay. All right, then we'll just take one more question on the share market, and then we'll try to introduce mutual funds quickly. This has to do with the employment when you mentioned about 33% 25%. So we're talking about rolling out or screening out the companies which are following falling on the other side? Is it permissible to work with these companies? Because let's say the company is into Halal business in terms of the
operation, but by the debt category categorization that we've done, if it is not permissible to invest in those companies, would it be permissible to work in those companies. So again, there are two separate issues. First issue is by investing, you become an owner of the company, right. And the second issue is you are just an employee of the company, you do your work, you get paid for it. And that's it. So as an owner, it's critical that you do not engage in any kind of haram. Even from a financial perspective, you don't indulge in a lot of debt or borrowings and giving a lot of interest or earning a lot of interest. So that's a separate issue. That's not allowed. But as an employee,
you're just required, you're your role is just to do deliver something Halal activities as it is the companies and so that's perfectly fine. So working in a company, which has financial ratios, which screens out a company from an investment perspective, working in the company is fine, but investing is not.
Right. And of course, you know, there are some questions which come to me where my spouse is taking a loan from the bank. So It's haram to take a loan from the bank. So is it permissible for me to continue the contract with him, then he can contract or should I opt out? So people go to that extreme of oversimplify oversimplifying things, but inshallah we will stick to what you've just mentioned right now. Now, how many Ashraf Mohammed these are there in India right now who are working with Okay? With similar vision with similar objective because what you're trying to do here, mashallah, you're educating people, you're getting people back into the fold of investing in a, what
the government of the country also backs, you know, the share markets are backed by SEBI guidelines in India, in different parts of the world. For example, in US, you have the SEC sec, the Security Exchange Commission is there. So, you have several government agencies which are backing them. However, how many people with your kind of a mindset are working in India to educate the Indian Muslim audience?
I can count them on my fingers actually, very few people in this field. But again, as a part of our Azadi
scheme of event, what we have planned is, in the next few years, get at least 1000 people who whom we train and who take this kind of work forward, you know, so, it's not about duplicating Ashraf Mohammed ease or cloning him, but the whole idea is to get as many people with this kind of a vision to bring about financial awareness and the whole idea of Muslims getting exposed to passive income strategies, you know, making that a common place in India and have millions of people using this opportunity and investing the right way. Inshallah.
Inshallah. All right, let's move on to mutual funds quickly, and I know it's getting late, but it's getting late for you and me as well, both of us, you know, we're not used to being up so late, but there are people who are watching in different parts of the world so they would be logged in from different parts. So in India, it's already now 1230 In the midnight cross the midnight so we will try to take some quick questions on mutual funds. What is the ruling on investing into mutual funds? So when in share market you've told
As that there are many companies which are traded in share market out of which the Sharia scholars will do screening based on different ratios. And for example, you said in India there are 7000 companies of which 1400 are shortlisted, what about the mutual fund space what how does mutual fund function and is it permissible to invest in mutual funds right. So, the way mutual funds function is these mutual fund companies they would collect small amount India now, even as much as $2 Right. So, they would take $2 from an individual and then or 150 rupees from an individual and invest it into a large pool put it in a create a large pool and then invest that money in the equity markets or debt
markets depending on the objective of that particular fund. Right. So, a lot of these funds, when they create that pool and when they make the investment the investment is very,
you know,
secular in nature in the sense it wouldn't they would invest in liquor companies, banking companies, allow companies, non Halal haram companies etc or even in debt. Now, out of all these companies, so, there are 5000 Plus mutual fund schemes in India for example, and out of these, there are just three schemes which are Sharia compliant that they are and have certified Sharia compliance. So, one of them is the Tata ethical fund. The second is Taurus ethical fund. And there is a third fund which is an exchange traded fund a passive fund which is the Nippon India Sharia B's exchange traded fund. So, there are these three funds which are Sharia compliant, they follow the benchmark their
products, their their schemes to Sharia indices or the Tata ethical fund gets certified by the COI advisory and the scholars. So, these are the three funds which are Sharia compliant in India available to Indian and non resident Indian investors. Besides these, there are certain India specific funds which are floated overseas for example, in the Middle East. So, Tata has a Sharia fund which is available for foreign investors which would primarily invest in the Indian markets. So, Tata has one such fun UTI mutual fund has one search fund which is available in the Middle Eastern countries. So, or for for in the Western countries as well. So, these are available for for
any foreign investor who is not an Indian or a non resident Indian right and if he or she wants to benefit from the huge opportunity that India has to offer, and when we are talking about this opportunity at the moment, we are looking at annualized returns of 14 15% Right, which is as compared to Western markets, which is substantially good than better than what they have to offer right. So, 14 15% returns is what India offers at the moment and foreigners can take advantage of those funds and benefit from them. So, these are the mutual fund schemes available across the board as far as what India has to offer.
What about the foreigners can the foreigners invest through a Dafa investments or they will have to contact the local offices there in the Middle East or wherever they are based at the moment non resident Indians and Indians can invest in Africa investment our offices in India
but inshallah very soon after this lockdown and you know the pandemic is over, we are in the process of setting up offices in Dubai, where we will be able to take foreigners, so non resident even the non resident Indian foreign passport holders from across the world, even they can then through those offices can invest into the Indian opportunities. So, as of now, it's only for Indian Okay, non resident Indians.
Alright, so, I think that's a very good thing that you have mentioned. So any of you who are watching it was an Indian or a non resident Indian, you can immediately contacted Alpha investments if you're interested to start a few investment into the share market. Now, you mentioned about the mutual funds. I just wanted to understand quickly from the mutual fund perspective. There are three of the funds which you mentioned is Sharia compliant
which is the Tata ethical fund the tourists ethical fund and there's another ETF which you mentioned which one was that Nippon India Sure yeah, India's
Nippon India Okay. All right, and do they have all
okay.
Do they have a minimum investment amount or person can start with
any amount. So, lump sum, the minimum investment is 5000 Indian Rupees lump sum, but when it comes
to a systematic investment plan where you put in a small amount on a monthly basis, so that in case of data it goes to as much as 150 rupees or $2 per month, in case of the other funds they take 1000 rupees or
$4 a month
sorry not $4 but slightly more than that
essentially 1000 rupees a month is what the other funds take, but Tata has a scheme where they can take as much as you can invest as much as 150 rupees a month.
Okay, alright, quickly coming to life insurance, we know that the general ruling on life insurance is that it is all form of conventional insurance is prohibited. But what about those life insurance scheme which has an investment into the share market in the form of mutual fund for example, which is called the unit unit link plans. If someone many unit link plans have an option, where you can reduce the cover, sometimes even to zero and have a large investment portion, which means you literally make it look like a mutual fund a very bare minimum cover just to focus on investment as any unit linked plan Sharia compliant, what is the view of the scholars, so, I am yet to come across
a unit linked insurance plan you will have which has a zero cover, you know, so, generally all the schemes that I have come across Sharia compliant fund element.
But then there is also a life insurance cover involved. So that charge is also deducted. And as a result of this combination, in my humble opinion, that is not allowed because life insurance as it is as a contract is not permissible. So having a fun with this kind of life insurance component
is not permissible. But I'm still I mean, if you are aware of a situation whether it has zero cover exposure, then I would be interested in that, and probably something can be worked out.
And so that would help people with their tax saving as well. Because a lot of people looking out for tax saving opportunities. Right? Well, we will come quickly to two more issues which we face. One is commodities. And more specifically in commodities, we're talking about investments into gold.
What is your opinion on that and foreign currencies if we wish to invest in the foreign currency market, or the forex market? Because they both are together? You know, we go to the Hadith of the prophets of salaam they both come into that hadith, the Bible serve. So what is your opinion on that? How can we invest in the bull market.
And we have your opinion on this, right, a very convenient way of investing. So again, both of these issues have to be dealt with,
with a certain level of clarity that if it's the spot market, then we can clearly invest in both of these things. But when it comes to the derivatives market, then that's not allowed, because of obvious reasons, the contract by itself is not promising spot market in both the cases we can especially gold, we have several opportunities now. So, there is something that is being touted in the Indian markets very aggressively by the government these days. And that is the the sovereign Gold Bond, which comes with an interest a coupon rate of 2.5%. So that is clearly not allowed, It's haram to invest in the sovereign Gold Bond, right. But then there are other ways of investing in
gold. And we can invest in Eagle so it alpha investments has a has an arrangement with one of the brokerages where you can open an account and Buy as much as gold as 500 rupees worth of gold in those fractions in the electronic form. So that's as good as buying real gold and you have that accumulating in your electronic account, the D mat account and you can keep building that up. The best part with this kind of an investment is that you need not get the physical gold, but you can transfer the gold gift it to your family members and do all of that because it's all in the electronic format right so that is a way you can invest in gold and you know, use it for future
support readings etc. So that can be done. So that's as far as the gold is concerned. When it comes to the foreign exchange the forex markets, trading or buying foreign exchange is absolutely not a problem. Again on the spot side but when it comes to trading in the forex trading as it is done today, then
that that's a high risk, dangerous game, whether it's leveraging or exposure to the to the tune of 100 times. So, for example, you give a margin money of say 100,000 rupees, and then you get an exposure of
a million rupees, not even, I mean 10 million rupees. So that's the kind of exposure that you get, and then you do the trades,
that the margins are wafer thin, but then, you know, by trading extensively, you can make a lot of money. But when you lose, you lose out in a big way as well. So these kinds of leveraged high exposure trading is not allowed. And there is interest involved in that a lot of people come back and say that there are certain markets, where they have situations
where the interest is taken care of by the brokers and they've charged a higher commission and all of that. But even if that case is done, and the scholars would approve of that, this kind of a high leverage trade is very risky. And
it's something that has to be looked at very carefully.
So,
spot is fine. Leverage trading is something that we look at very critically.
Okay. All right. Thank you so much. Quick question on some of the other schemes, which are running pension schemes, a lot of countries have got pension schemes, UK has lots of pension schemes as well. So social security measures are needed. health insurances are there, medical insurances are there, especially in the time of COVID that we see around us, we say that insurance is prohibited. Where does a common man go, you can't go to a bank and take loan, we don't have a joint family system today, we don't have those family values where if somebody falls sick at home, there is a distant relative who comes out and helps you, you're all by yourself. In a situation like this no
insurance allowed no loans allowed, the cost of living is high, they are left with no savings. Where are we supposed to go? Right? So the Sharia comes to your aid Alhamdulillah.
So you know, a lot of Sharia scholars have now come out with the opinion that so two separate issues. One issue, if a person is of limited means, you know, he has an income, but he knows very clearly that if someone in my family falls, ill, the hospitalization and all of that is beyond me. So in that situation, scholars have allowed such a person with limited means limited income, to go for health insurance plan, pay the premium and take care of the family. So he's assured that the family is taken care of. So even the conventional health insurance policy he can opt for. Right? That's one ruling.
Even in case now this is something that I got to know, just a couple of years back, otherwise, I was very clear that health insurance, any kind of insurance is not allowed. So if
a person opts for a health insurance or this is only for health insurance, not life insurance, he opts for the health insurance policy, and there are a lot of scholars who are now giving this opinion and he goes for a cashless option, right, there is no cash reimbursement. So his test is hospitalization, his outpatient department, cost charges, everything needs to be cashless, if at all, there is a cash payment and reimbursement involved in that's not allowed. So in that situation, he can go for this kind of a cashless policy. Because the whole the basic premise of the contract is that when you pay something,
you must get something back in equal measure, right. But when it is, so that's in terms of something that is tangible, but the scholars maintain that if we are dealing with intangibles, and there is no measure to the intangibles, and that's why that cashless component comes into play. So without really kind of, you know, arguing too much or kind of asking for too much of explanation from these scholars. What I've started doing now is asking people to go and get themselves insured and get the cashless policy
Okay, all right.
cryptocurrencies, something which we all talk about. So, if you say that it is permissible to invest into gold in spot market, can we apply similar opinion on cryptocurrencies treating it as gold? You know, like, like an alternative to gold like a commodity. Can we treat them though of course, we know that cryptocurrency is totally digital
So you I don't know, how do you compare the two? But nonetheless, the question I would like to know, can we apply similar ruling? Right. So
a couple of years back, Rafa investments had organized a full day conference on cryptocurrency. So that was the time when bitcoins and sharply shooted and everyone wanted to just get into the cryptocurrency bandwagon. So that's when we had of the Manju from London who had come down to India and then we had his conference. Now, the consensus of that meeting was very clearly that you know, for
a commodity or a thing to be acceptable as a currency, there are certain guidelines, certain measures, that must be one of the most important thing was that it should be, it should hold, it should be able to hold some value. Right. So when it comes to cryptocurrency, it's completely digital. And we fail to understand how does it hold any kind of value, except for the efforts put into its mining. Now, there are some people who claim that the efforts put in the mining
on the basis of which the cryptocurrency is formed, that is the value. But generally, the scholars haven't really bought that argument as if at all, they're bought by that argument, then as a whole, as a as a commodity, which holds value that criteria is met. The other criteria is that it should be accepted, accepted by the Government at large. So the government of the land that you're living in, that government should approve of it, it should be something that is commonly accepted by the people at large, and then that currency is considered to be a valid currency. So when these two things are valid, that's when things fall in place. As of now, most of the countries in the world do not
approve of this, the government is do not approve of this. And there is a big question mark of cryptocurrency, how are they holding any value at all? So until these two things aren't resolved, cryptocurrency, investing in them, owning them, etc, is not permissible. So like the paper currency that we have to do the same questions were being raised about the paper currency about 100 years back, right. And then over a period of time, it gained acceptance, and then it's accepted tenure also, similarly, maybe 5080 100 years from now, cryptocurrency could be the norm, but not as yet.
All right. I just want to remind all of those who are listening to this program right now, there is a next program for DACA, which is coming up, it's called Azadi. Next, your pathway to be a pro investor. And I think this is specially meant for those staying in the Gulf. It's supposed to be held over three days. It's a three days online workshop, followed by three months of practical training. And it's available in English as well as Hindi and Urdu, it will be held on different dates. The English session will be held on the 11th 12th and the 18th of September, and the Hindi and Urdu session will be held on the 10th 11th and 12th of October. And this is your opportunity
inshallah I would request any representative from Darfur. If you're watching it live on YouTube, you can share the registration link on the live chat box. So anyone who's interested can register for the program. Is this only meant for the Middle East audience can't people from India or elsewhere register? They can they can. There are a lot of
people who are available on fresh so we've kept this as a Friday, Saturday, and the subsequent Fridays, those three days, especially for the Middle East audience, but people from UK, Australia, all of them attend if it's if it works for them, generally speaking, Monday, Monday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday is the general date. What happens in this is Saturday and Sunday we work on the subject matter. And Monday in the live markets, we get the participants to trade lines. So that's how this program is designed. It's really powerful. Some of the people who have done this course they came back and said that within a week we have recovered the feeds, right? And then a lot of
people mashallah have started trading on an ongoing basis, and now they're making more money out of trading, passive investment and trading
then their main line of employment. So I'm not gonna lie It's a it's an amazing program. I enjoy teaching it because, you know, it's completely live practical, you're in the market and you know, there is charm
What is fundamental analysis that we learn there is chart trade track practice that we do so it's a very powerful program and
more than the participants I enjoy teaching
Yeah Can someone mashallah it says your path to become a pro investor so I are not even an investor A pro investor. So are you looking at people who are joining in to have some advanced knowledge of prior knowledge or anyone can join in with no knowledge also, and can learn if someone can understand two plus two is four is good to go? You know, so no prior knowledge involved, okay, you start from scratch.
All right now, we are running out of time, we wouldn't like to hold you back too late, but Inshallah, if you like the session, and if you come back to us with your opinion and your feedback, we can inshallah have Mr. Mohammed the again, before we let you go, Mr. mamani, we would just like to know if someone is interested to start investing in the share market today. And let's say he is in India, for example. And if they want to get in touch with you, how can they get in touch with you and what are the services that you are offering? Is it only restricted to share market? Or do you also offer services in mutual fund cashless health policy? What about the card calculations? What
about will and inheritance planning,
if you could just brief us about your service? So essentially, we are into we are stockbrokers and wealth managers. So when it comes to stock broking, we deal with the 100 foot 1400 Sharia compliant companies. In the event wealth management scenario, what we offer is, we can manage your portfolio for you for a fee, we can help you invest in mutual funds, there are other Sharia compliant products, which are a replacement of tech, right which is Sharia compliant, so rent based returns etc. So we guide you to those kinds of investments people who are interested in a lower return but a steady stable return with capital guarantee kind of scenario. So we help you with those kinds of
rent based return plans. And then
as far as the other things are concerned, the card calculation. So we look at your wealth scenario and help you with those calculations, purging. So purification of your financial holdings will help you with that with mutual funds as well as equity shares. And we can guide you to professionals who do estate planning, who do wills, lawyers, we can help you with wills, etc. All of that we can manage the entire scope of activity for you. We don't do everything ourselves, we'll connect you with the right kind of people, chartered accountants, lawyers who can help you with those services.
Okay, so I would request the listeners to check out the website www.sedar.com Id a FA. So it's spelled with IE as in India, D as in Denmark, as in Australia, F as in Finland and E as in Australia again, IDFA it alpha.com Visit the website, get in touch with the team at a Dafa whatever queries you have, and insha Allah they will get back to you. Before we conclude the session, I would just like to remind you that the link has been shared in the chat box. So you can just copy paste the link and upload your details. Find out more about the upcoming programs. Next week. We have another very powerful interview lined up. This is with Brother Abdul Rahim who is a farmer entrepreneur.
That sounds something new a farm entrepreneur. And brother Abdul Rahim will be sharing with us how you can start a new venture of your own in the current scenario. So if you're sitting at home and you are wondering what kind of business I should start, how should I start my business? Whichever part of the world you are in, this is an opportunity for you. Please check out the posters will be shared very soon inshallah. The timings will be a little different for the next week session. We'll share the details in the coming week. Please remember to subscribe to the YouTube channel right now and click on the notification bell. Check out our page, the International Open Universities page on
Facebook, like our page, stay updated with our upcoming programs. And once again, I appeal to all of you were currently in the admission admission process. Any one of you who wish to join the IOU, and benefit from our business administration program. You can take up the different options that we have. We have a degree program, we have an associate degree program and we have a shorter one year certificate program which will help you basically start off your business on your own. It gives you a basic knowledge. In addition to this, we have Islamic banking courses, economics courses, finance courses,
Islamic Studies Arabic education, psychology it, several programs are there, you can check out what suits your requirement. Mr. Mohammed, once again, I would like to thank you for your time concluding words from you before we conclude the session.
Yeah, there are just two things that I would like to mention. One is that we have come a long way, struggling to set up the whole idea in concept of Sharia compliant, passive investment opportunities. So I would like all of you to join hands with us, and take this far and wide in India and overseas, etc. So if you wish to get associated with us in this world, not just as investors, but as partners with us. So do get in touch with us. And inshallah we'd like to share with you details of how can you replicate this and take this forward in your communities. And secondly, just make sure that you consider doing the post that was announced as the next your pathway to become a
pro investor. Because if more and more people
engage and get this skill of investment, it not only helps you in investment with the stock market, shares and mutual funds, etc. But then, in terms of running your own businesses, you're able to analyze balance sheets and profit and loss accounts, etc. You will be able to run your businesses better your you know, your your family budgets, finances all that better. So just from a skill development perspective, just join join us for this program, either the September one, the October one, and then let's work together. So just local affair for the month. Sure. And to us, it was a great experience sharing my thoughts with you. We're just like BarakAllahu Li, I have shared the
link with all of you in the chat box. If for some reason you're not able to view it or access the link, please visit the website www.sedar.com and contact with Mr. Ashok Mohammadi. He's also there on social media so you can connect with him on social media do Mashallah. He keeps a little busy nowadays, but nonetheless, you can connect with him on social media. With that we will conclude the session. I look forward to you joining us for the next week as well. We have a session next week on how to start a venture of your own on the 19th we have Mufti acid girl who will be speaking on Islamic business ethics. And by the way on the 18th we are running a new program and it will be
called career counseling session. I'll be taking that up for Business Administration students will come up with the posters and the promos very soon. Stay tuned. And Giacomo la Ferran for taking a timeout and attending from whichever part of the world you are in BarakAllahu li comb, we shall conclude with the DUA Subhana Allah Humala behenic, a shadow Allah Allah Allah Allah stuff Hirokawa to boudic wa salam aleikum, WA from