Lauren Booth – Non Muslim TV Characters In Hijab

			I no longer have a patient really for talking about and listen clothing I wish we'd all just get
over
		

			the veil and that that kind of word itself we'll be looking at specifically in TV for non Muslim
characters. And this has been a work that Dr. Cathy has wonderfully brought to our attention I have
literally got a nice bit of last night's cake from a restaurant that I couldn't eat all in one go I
have to be truthful and say that I actually had some Arabic cakes as well. It's very important for
us to know what Chai looks like in different places in the world. So before we begin my my wonderful
guest today is Dr. Cathy Bullock from the University of Toronto salaam aleikum wa rahmatullah he
What better care to my salaam to our America to whom? What is tea like in Toronto? And what's your
		

			child background?
		

			Well, I grew up in Australia, we were the, I don't know, British colonial heritage, I suppose. So.
My, my father always used to wake us up around six o'clock in the morning with a cup of tea, and
then we'd have
		

			tea throughout the day. And then there'd be the four o'clock afternoon tea ritual, which we adhere
to in the family. When I got married to my Nigerian who didn't drink tea, British style, it
completely changed. They drink those Villa cups of tea with mint, and loads and loads of sugar. When
I was at university, I decided tea was an addiction. Because if I didn't have my morning tea, and
I'd have a headache by mid morning, and then I realized it was from the tea. So I actually gave up
caffeine tea, which is like 25 years ago. Now I drink herbal teas or decaf tea, the fail and that
that kind of word itself, we'll be looking at, specifically in TV for non Muslim characters, I no
		

			longer have a patient really for talking about Muslim clothing. I wish we'd all just get over it and
let us move on However, others talk about it. So we have to talk about it. I converted in 1994. And
I started to wear the headscarf and I got a lot of negative reactions. And that led me on this
journey of of writing and publishing about Muslim women and the headscarf. It started with a really
quite revolutionary article, or a piece of work that you developed. I call it rethinking Muslim
women and the veil. That was my PhD thesis, which later became published as a book. And that came
out just after 911. Actually, it was the timing was sort of interesting, even though the thesis had
		

			been completed before that. And by then I was in living in the US and I had tried to give some
academic talks about my research, which was based on interviews of Muslim women and the veil. And I
found people asking me relevant questions like, Why did you convert? Why are you wearing it? And
people were unable to separate me as the academic from me as the private individual. And I began to
feel like it's none of their business, why I converted? Or why I wore a headscarf. If I was a non
Muslim academic presenting my research about Muslim women and the veil, no, nobody would ask them,
Why aren't you muslim? Why aren't you wearing a veil? Somehow, it was just a you know, they felt
		

			they had the right to ask me, I decided not to write about the veil anymore. For years, more,
probably 20 years or so. And then I was drawn back to it because I started to look at the role of
entertainment in contributing to negative images of the veil, just wanting to be ourselves and not
defined by how we look. But you see, you're in a different space to me, because academia is
somewhere where already it's difficult for women in STEM and women in different research areas. And
of course, then you add the scarf to that and it's like mind your own business, listen to what I'm
saying. And there's that resistance whereas for me, I'm a bit I'm a bit militant, you know, that
		

			used to be a character in a in a private eye, if you ever read Private Eye on Emily tan was like,
everything's a fight. So I kind of you know, in the media, because I'm in the media I like people
asking about, you know, why I'm wearing this and letting it almost define me didn't jump does. Does
that make sense? Yeah, it does. It does make sense. The problem with academia, we're supposed to be
presenting research as objectively as possible. And I sort of what I wasn't allowed to do that. How
could I talk about why? Why why did I convert to Islam? What What relevance is that is me presenting
my research about Muslim women so that the lines were always been blurred, because there's there's
		

			that lingering feeling that they have false consciousness that they don't really understand their
own situation of oppression, that they're brainwashed by their culture or socialized into thinking
this is good when it isn't really good and we know better.
		

			Voices always suspect it
		

			Why'd you sorry I'm taking off on the sidebar here. But last question on this, do you think that is
why in your research field that
		

			converts are often suspect because we don't fit into any of those categories? I mean, I'll give you
an example when I started to lose work in the mainstream and thanks be to Allah and I'm really
satisfied with everywhere that Allah has taken in my life. It's not a complaint. But it was very
much because suddenly I'm boozy Lauren in the miniskirt and and everybody understands where I'm
coming from. Suddenly, I'm in the hijab. Well, I remember learning a story by a freelance journalist
who was in Kuwait for one of the anniversaries of the when they had got succeeded in getting Iraq or
two out after the invasion. And the journalist came across a troop of Kuwaiti women soldiers in
		

			hedger in hijab and headscarf and wrote a story about them and sent it off to an editor in the US
who refused to publish it. Because he said, This is not the US public will not accept this image of
a Muslim woman. So a Muslim woman, and he jabs as a soldier. This is not an image that the US public
will accept as an image of a Muslim woman. So our, our
		

			representation is defined in advance. And if there's some kind of empirical detail that doesn't fit,
they don't change the representation, they get rid of the empirical detail. So your most your most
recent work really caught my eye when we were chatting last time, because it's not actually about
Muslim characters in TV shows. So it would be it would be you know, retrograde, it would be a
retrospective, if we talked again, about all the characters that we've seen who are negative and is
still negative, you know, whether it comes from the cartoons in the 1940s with a more Haha, you
know, the Cutlass, and then the curly mustache and all of these these tropes or, and I'd love to
		

			speak about this in a bit as well. I Dream of Jeannie who will go back to the future there. You
know, the hiring girl who's Oh, yes, Master, let me please you master. And sort of like I always
find that bizarre that these hiring girls would wear a veil but have nothing on their midriff.
		

			Right? I actually did see something like that though, wants in on Eid, in in Manchester on the curry
mile with a young sister in a miniskirt, and a hijab. And I thought, Okay, that's interesting, maybe
what I Dream of Jeannie isn't so so far away. But the image of
		

			the image of strangeness and the other in novelists and characters.
		

			Take us through what is Stargate and what is Merlin and why they count and how they caught your
attention.
		

			They Stargate is a US science fiction show the discovery metal ring, a humongous metal ring that you
step into it and it connects you through wormholes to 1000s of planets in the universe. Merlin is
the retelling of the medieval legend of King Arthur and his assistant Merlin when they were young.
Let's like the spinner when they were young. It was a children's show. I was just watching with my
kids. You know, I like to watch TV with them when they were little. And I was very shocked to
discover that the villain there was one villain on Stargate, the US science fiction show and
villains on Merlin medieval British dressed almost identically. How are they dressed? They're
		

			wearing a black turban they look like Afghan Afghan turbans, and with the face covered in a veil,
		

			and I was like whoa, okay, now that's what is that? A US science fiction show? And British medieval
show having almost identical costumes for the villain. And they look like Afghan men wearing veils.
I called them cross I called them the Taliban Nick hubbies. Yeah. Nice one. It's lazy. I have to
say, having worked with with with TV people and that there is a kind of shorthand, when you can't be
bothered to come up or maybe you don't have the budget for something new and exciting. It's like,
Oh, I know. I know what scares me. What do you think they'll these black things on and they got and
maybe they don't they're not even aware where it comes from? It's just it's a shorthand Is that Is
		

			that what you're reading into it? Exactly. Because of the long history of Orientalist
representations were Muslim men portrayed with the turban then that got twisted after 911 into
remember the Danish cartoons the turban with the bomb? So the turban carries this it used to be the
exotic, oriental. Now it becomes the exotic oriental who's also threatening and then the face veil
also used to be exotic and now it's the exotic face veil who's also threatening and she's also
oppressed, but she's a threat because
		

			She's oppressed.
		

			So you don't even need to teach the audience what this means you because the audience is primed by
this 200 year history of negative sentiment towards the turban and the face veil, it's it's the
other and then after 911 and got threatened iced turned into a threat, though sorry, I tried to
invent a word that doesn't exist. I quite like it threatened eyes. Does anybody recognize that?
Mental way? So, the audience, they don't even need to be taught. It's just, oh, yeah, I know, he's
gonna be the villain. So that was what I tried to explore. In that article, I tried to explore the
history behind it, why they might have really had recourse to it as costume designers. And what it
		

			meant for real life Muslims trying to live imagine being an Afghan want an Afghan guy in living in
the UK, when this episode of Merlin has been broadcast, and this was in the mid 2000s, when NATO was
in trying to eradicate the Taliban. They were the enemy, and newspaper representations after 911 of
bin Laden always in his turban, they were identifiable as an enemy. Do you did you get the feeling
then that it literally is just just a low level? Unconscious bias? Because I know at the BBC, no one
would ever dare say, Let's secretly make them look like Muslims. And does it matter that it's
unconscious?
		

			I do believe it's unconscious. And I do believe it matters. Because it's a kind of
		

			cultural misappropriation, and it's very unfair. Why? Why should that image of the black turban with
a face veil represent villainy? That's very unfair.
		

			When you interview Muslim women who wear a face veil, who, who wear it by choice, they'll say things
like, I love it, I find peace in it. I feel like I'm closer to Allah. It's part of my spiritual
journey.
		

			I quoted from a book, I think she's a British convert nayeem. Roberts, she talks about wearing the
niqab and what it means to her. So you put those two statements next to each other. And you can see
how unfair it is. And I don't believe anybody is doing it on purpose in terms of the costume
designers, and the producers, directors, actors, all of them. I'm not, I don't believe it's
purposeful. I don't believe they got up and say, yes, let's show hatred towards Muslims in our show.
		

			I have heard that BBC was meant to be a celebration of British multiculturalism.
		

			So it looks like it's just they need to take that next step.
		

			Interesting. I mean, these these are slightly older shows. Do you Do you sense that there's been a
bit of a change? I don't because I'm regularly if I watch, you know, any British TV or American
stuff on Netflix, I'm like, Oh, no. Why did you do Oh, God, here we go. That's, that's, um, you
know, what I see when I when I see these, you know, images or just an abnormal person who's in
Muslim dress, really, somebody who's not well, or like you say, there's the this this image being of
ourselves being misused. I just think there's another niqab you're gonna get punched in the face in
Walmart?
		

			Exactly.
		

			Yeah, he does have these real word, real world consequences. And that's why I decided to try and
write about it. Yes, I have a lot of friends who have taken off their hijab. There are there is a
movement of reinterpretation which says that the headscarf was actually not part of the Quran. So
I've tried to adopt a pluralist position. If that's what they believe, then that's what they
believe. I personally think that the Quran is very clear. Draw your headscarf over your bosoms. I
think that's a very clear, but not everyone does. So I
		

			have tried to take a I told a friend once that it's the shutdown, and she didn't take too kindly to
that. So we didn't have a lot of interaction afterwards. So I know. Actually, this sister rang me
and said thank you for your honesty, and I really appreciate that. So sometimes I love the idea of a
pluralist approach. And all of our sisters we love we love we love each other dearly have
hamdulillah Shukra la wherever we are on our on our different journeys.
		

			However, this idea, this reinterpretation of the hijab is problematic because it just has never
existed before and it comes and then therefore we have to ask ourselves when we make this decision,
am I the perfect Muslim who is better than
		

			Aisha peace and blessings be upon her Khadija she she she would have got it wrong if she was, you
know, when she wore hijab and all of our scholars through time and every Muslim practicing woman,
they were all foolish until I came along and got it right to reinterpret it our hearts and you know,
should feel should quake at that
		

			I'm with you on that I am. I think there might be another reason why somebody would feel relief. And
it's not necessarily because of that internal debate over interpretation. It's more because you can
unless you're a visible minority, you could now step out the door and not experience all that you
know, we get nasty glances you get the looks of the words. It's such a the battle is with with the
environment, with the the knowledge that you're wearing this even though the society around you
thinks that you're stupid and oppress, that really wears you down? Why do I have to go out and prove
every day that I'm that I'm not, that can really wear you down? I can imagine taking it off and go
		

			off. Thank God, I don't have to, like deal with that anymore. For sure. For sure. I'm completely
sympathetic to that. I mean, that is a really, really tough call to just go out and be different
every day. And that and that's not just in the West that's in that's in what you know, what were
once Muslim countries. Uh, you know, the places that are changing so rapidly the families who are
like, No Man's gonna want you because you're because you're, you know, less attractive, the hijab on
which, by the way, is the point. I eat I have I have a lot of resistance to when a sister you've
probably heard this when a sister takes the shahada, mashallah, and then you might see her two
		

			weeks, two months, two years down the road, and she's got the hijab on and the temptation because of
the age, we live in a say, mashallah, you look so beautiful in that hijab, and I'm going not the
point, not the point, you know, and you know, if any brothers here are like martial law used to
beautiful, we literally don't want you to look at us in that way. The whole point of having the
hijab is so we can go about our business, privately. But you know, the reality, the reality that is
not helped by creative workers in the TV world, making lazy choices, that it impacts our working
environment, how our lecturers See us at university, how employers see us how politicians see us,
		

			you know, I wonder what what if you ever if you have a message to the TV workers of writers, what,
what would that be?
		

			My message is to look around you. And if you're going to represent clothing that you know, is worn
by people in your city, go out and chat with them about what it means. Two examples that I want to
highlight where, where I think that's happened, Grey's Anatomy, which is a US medical drama, they
introduced a hijab, the doctor in season 13, or 14 or 12, something like that. And as far as I can
tell, she's just an ordinary doctor. What? Oh, no, no, no, me and my daughter would be watching, oh,
my God, she's gonna do something weird. She's gonna do something weird. She's being normal, even
though
		

			you're saying she's a normal character, pretty much.
		

			They do have an episode where that somebody in the corridor gets ill, and she has to rip off her
hijab to, you know, tie him up and make sure the blood doesn't come out. I mean, that was totally
stupid, because she wouldn't do that she'd rip off her coat or something. So, you know, there's
still same problems, but the doctor the next day, he washes it and give it back to her, you know,
here's your hijab back. So I don't know, like it was a bit of an effort. There are these little
possibilities coming to us. So there, we just need to see more of that. Thank you, Sister. That was
I think that was really wonderful and good fun. Did you get to say what you wanted to say? Yes.
		

			Thank you. I'm really happy that someone else is interested in the Merlin's story because the kids
were always laughing at me about how it was so relevant. So thank you for being interested.