Jamal Badawi – Social System of Islam 13 – Women In Judaeo Christian And Muslim Scriptures 2

Jamal Badawi
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The conversation covers the topic of the creator, messenger, and social system in Islam. It focuses on the importance of creating, responsibility, and the natural monthly cycles, as well as the punishment of victims' accusations of fraud and treatment of victims' accusations. The discussion also touches on the use of the Bible in marriage and the negative attitude of some people towards women, including those who talk about being a woman and not being a god. The segment ends with a mention of a guest's invite to continue discussion on the social system of Islam.

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			In the name of God the benevolent the Merciful, the creator and Sustainer of the universe, peace and
blessings upon his servant and messenger Muhammad forever amin, I bear witness that there is no god
worthy of worship except the one true God. And I bear witness that Muhammad is the messenger instead
of servant of God. I greet you with our usual greeting on our program. This is a greeting that has
been used by out of the prophets from Abraham through to Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be
upon them all. The Universal greetings of peace Assalamu alaikum, which means peace beyond you. I'm
your host Humbert Rashid. Today we have our 13th program dealing with the social system of Islam.
		
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			And we'll continue with our comparison of the position of women in the Judeo Christian and Muslim
scriptures. I have joining me as usual on the program, Dr. Jamal Baddeley of St. Mary's University,
brother Jamal Assalamu alaikum Ronnie.
		
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			Before we get into the
		
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			today's program, I want to perhaps I could ask you just quickly to highlight the main points that we
touched on last week when we started our discussion in this this area.
		
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			Mr. Thurs the comparison of the Old Testament, or the attitude towards women as reflected in the Old
Testament with the what the Quran says about it. And we compare basically three major areas, one
dealt with the creation of Adam and Eve, and the responsibility for the first sin so called. And we
indicated that according to the Bible and woman is to blame because she is the one who tempted Adam.
In the Quran, it is Satan, we tempted both of them, and that both of them are equally responsible
and the blame is not thrown on the shoulder of the woman.
		
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			The second area of comparison was the attitude towards child birth and pregnancy. And we'll compare
Genesis three in Leviticus 12 in the Bible, which shows that pregnancy and childbirth is a kind of
punishment for a woman for committing the first sin. We compare that with the Quran and we said that
there is no such notion in the Quran and that actually childbirth, and pregnancy is regarded as
jihad, the same term used for the headquarter. That is it's something heroic something to be praised
for,
		
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			for her patience and fortitude. The third one focused on the treatment of women during various
natural monthly cycles or the postnatal confinement period. And we indicated that drawing from
Leviticus 1512 and 15 in the Bible will find that women is regarded as something that should be kept
away from should not be touched that even if she sits on a place and another person sits on it, or
sleep on it, then he must base and wash his clothing. And we said that in Islam, there is no such
notion. And that Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him said that for women during this period, you can
have normal relationship with them everything, eat with them, sit with them, touch them, there is no
		
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			problem except of course, for matrimonial relationship until they are over the feed.
		
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			So in that sense, Islam does not regard this natural function as something of a spreadsheet
pollution or anything of that search. The Prophet said that not just the believer can never be
unclean in the spiritual sense at all. It's just a matter of
		
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			natural functions
		
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			that we didn't touch on, which I think would be of a lot of interest to it's a problem that is
occurring more and more in the present a society unless this whole question of *, how is the
victim to be treated?
		
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			One, despite the comparison again, by referring to the Bible and denying a request to the Quran, in
the book of Deuteronomy, in chapter 22, it gives the detailed description there as to what happened
in two cases. It says that in one case, that's in verses 22 through 24. It says if a man lays hold
on a virgin, was not
		
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			let's start first with the man who is betrothed to a man and life with her. Then it says that both
of them should be stoned to death.
		
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			He
		
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			humbled her. And she, because she failed to cry so that somebody can save her. This one case, in the
same chapter in Deuteronomy 22. Later on in verses 28 and 29.
		
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			It says that if the victim, the woman who was raped is a virgin, but she is already betrothed to
another person.
		
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			And she's up, and she's not because to another person, then the punishment here involves First, the
payment of 50 shekels of silver, which is an Israelite coin to her father. And secondly, that the
* would be required to get married to that woman or good, and certainly that he would not be
able to divorce her for the rest of his days.
		
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			Now,
		
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			the
		
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			position of Islamic law on this issues is quite different.
		
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			In the first case, it is important to realize, first of all that, in Islam, a woman who was raped is
regarded as a victim and even have failures to shout or cry does not constitute an Islamic law,
aground for stoning her to death. Indeed, she is regarded with compassion as a victim of an
aggression of someone else. So this is one fundamental difference. A second is that the punishment
of the * in Islamic law is not simply to ask him to pay 50 pieces of silver to her father.
Indeed, the punishment and punishment is much greater and could be but not necessarily could be even
capital punishment for the *, but not for the victim.
		
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			Indeed, when it's
		
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			when it says in Deuteronomy, that the man will be required to marry her.
		
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			That is not necessarily the case in Islamic law at home, because a * would not be fit enough to
get married to a chaste woman.
		
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			So in that sense, it may be even a kind of reward for the person if a person goes and raped a woman
that she wants to violate. And then she would be required to marry him that might be even an hour to
him rather than a punishment.
		
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			Actually, in the Quran in chapter 24, it indicates that one should not get married to unchaste
person that is a * would not be fit for this kind of match. So the the treatment is quite, it's
quite different.
		
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			There's another point of comparison that we touched on in our last program that we really didn't get
a chance to discuss it. And that's the whole question of acquisition on the part of a husband,
		
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			acquisition by husband that his wife has committed adultery.
		
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			What is the different positions? Or what are the positions of the Scriptures?
		
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			In this respect? What did they suggest be done in this instance? Okay. I refer again to the to the
Bible in mind, by the way, I'm using King James Version, but I suppose most of them would have
basically the same information anyway. In the book of the numbers, in chapter five, verses 12
through 28, it is specifically with that question, it's quite lengthy. So instead of cutting it all
out, just to get the gist of it, what it says basically, that if a husband is motivated by jealousy,
		
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			and he has any suspicion on Earth, attaining suspicion about his wife, then he should take her to
the priest.
		
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			And it goes on describing the very detailed rites, rituals that the priest goes through. It says,
for example, that the priest would take some bitters water, and recite a curse on it, and threaten
the woman, that if she is going to lie, that her thighs were wrapped, and her belly will swell
		
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			and threatens her and if she does not confess,
		
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			to confirm her husband's accusation, and then he gives her of that
		
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			better water, and he offers certain sacrifice also, she has to provide for that. And then it says
that if she is trustful, then nothing will happen to her if she's lying. Then her thighs were
wrapped in her belly or will swell.
		
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			Well, it appears and again, like I said, the reference here is number, the Book of Numbers, chapter
five, verses 20 to 28. It appears here that there is an attitude of assuming guilt the woman
		
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			until otherwise proven innocent, which is guilty until proven innocent until proven guilty.
		
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			In the case of
		
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			Islamic law and my reference that is chapter 24.
		
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			It says that if a husband accuses his wife of committing adultery,
		
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			also has to say is simply to give a witness,
		
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			notice himself or statement, and repeat or swear five times that he is truthful or that this
accusation is true.
		
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			In the case of a woman, she's assumed innocent, until otherwise proven. And all she has to do to
make a rebuttal of that accusation is to make a statement also, or to swear, five times that he is
lying, or that this didn't happen. And that ended at that. In other words, even if the judge or
anybody else suspect in his heart, that she's lying, the mere fact that she simply swears five times
as his word five times, would make her innocent, and the only thing that can take place is to
separate them because of course, the marital relationship after that would be really senseless. But
that's not there's no punishment or penalty whatsoever for her. So it's just a witness against one
		
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			witness, her word, would be just taken as good as his own words. And by the way, this is only in the
case, where a husband actually, for example, saw his wife committing adultery or had really occlude
evidence. And this applies only in marital relationships. As far as accusing another woman who is
not one's wife, it is totally forbidden. And if the person make an accusation like that, without
producing three, at least three other witnesses, witnesses who are accepted because of their piety,
in fairness, that they are not people who would lie. If he says, to corroborate that by three more
witnesses, who serve things very clearly. At the same time, you know, that the person who made the
		
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			accusation is the one who's punished, and the minimum here would be at Nash's will get at lashes,
even history. The idea behind this is to preserve the reputation of women and to prevent this
haphazard type of accusation and to establish the principle that a woman is innocent until otherwise
proven, conclusively.
		
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			There's one other area that I'd like for you to
		
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			comment on. It's a related subject. And that's the question of marriage and how it is viewed? Could
you shed some light on that topic? What I made reference to the dictionary of the Bible and
Encyclopedia biblica
		
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			instead of giving any opinion of mine and just go and give a few direct quotation that might reflect
the attitude in the Old Testament, or at least today, if you weren't on this question of of
marriage, introduction of the Bible, for example, it says that the, the practically universal form
of marriage was the type B, A and
		
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			A were the wise test under the dominion of his Lord. And he gives us an evidence for that Genesis
316, by the way, that the verse says that after the woman, or Eve committed the first sin, God told
her that you will suffer in sorrow, the childbirth and all that, and that your husband will rule
over you. So that's what he's referring to, and just putting in between brackets,
		
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			Encyclopedia biblica, edited by Cheyenne,
		
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			there was a question there discussed about the nature of the medicine contract or the consent of the
girl to be made. And it says, and they quote, The girl's consent that's in marriage is unnecessary.
And the need for it is nowhere suggested in the law. ordinary human affection would no doubt lead
the parents generally to allow their daughters some voice in the matter. And he quotes Genesis 2458,
which talk about the marriage of Rebecca, where there was some consultation, but the arrangements
about the marriage, and especially about know her, belongs to the province of the Father, or
guardian, and he gives reference also again to Genesis 2420 1934. In other words, basically what it
		
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			says is that in Judaic law, according to the Encyclopedia Britannica, it was not required that the
girl would agree to the her husband to be whatever the father or guardian.
		
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			Tell her she's supposed to accept.
		
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			The same reference in the Encyclopedia biblica. It talks about betrothal this word I used before a
girl who's not the first or the girl who was betrothed
		
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			And it says to be throws a wife to oneself, or Eros era is named simply to acquire possession of her
to acquire possession of her by payment of the purchase money. The botros is a girl for whom the
purchase money has been paid,
		
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			when, and the basis of that it continues in page 2947. That the matter of divorce then, is a matter
of course, it's an absolute right of men. For example, it says that the woman being men's property
is right to divorce her fellas as a matter of course. Now, how does that compare with what the Quran
and the teaching of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him? This is a method that we'll discuss in some
greater detail as we go on. But at this point, I would say first of all, a woman in Islam or a wife
is not regarded as a physician of the husband. Indeed, the consent of the girl to marriage is
regarded as a necessity as one of the conditions for validity of the marital contract. Thirdly, the
		
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			the money that is paid by the husband to be to his wife to be, is regarded as a gift, not a purchase
money. The Quran is the word Muslim, which means get in chapter four,
		
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			has nothing to do with the purchase at all. And the matter of divorce, of course, has nothing to do
with the property right? It's a matter of possible
		
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			compatibility, but nothing to do with the question of property. That is why Indeed, we find that
some
		
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			writers
		
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			quote or refer to traditional Israelite press prayers, which is set in the morning by means, thank
you, Lord, for not creating me a woman.
		
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			So the attitude in the Quran is certainly different. There is no parallel to this kind of attitude
or prayer at all. And in Islam.
		
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			Most of the foods that we've discussed at this point, and most of the comparisons that we've made
have have come from quotations from the Old Testament. This might make some people uneasy,
particularly the members of the Christian community. Some of them think that the the Old Testament
		
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			law is not applicable any longer and so on.
		
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			Where does the New Testament fit in, in these comparisons?
		
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			I think
		
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			it's useful to refer to the Old Testament still, because after all, the Old Testament is part of the
Bible. And it is part of the heritage also of the New Testament. And many disciples, and even
writers of the Gospels themselves keep referring to the Old Testament, at least, in terms of the
prophecies about the Advent and life of Prophet Jesus peace be upon him. They keep referring
frequently to the Old Testament. So why is it good for that, but not good for other things. I
realize, of course, that some people believe that
		
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			the Judaic law, and the Old Testament law, like you said, is no longer applicable. But even that
matters seem to be disputable. It's common to have that view. But the matter itself is the spirit of
because Jesus peace be upon him, himself said in Matthew 517, I came not to destroy the law, or
profits, I can defend.
		
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			But in any case, the least that can be said that it is a useful background, we're looking at it,
		
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			hopefully, in what might be similar to an academic approach.
		
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			We're not incriminating anyone, but they're simply reviewing
		
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			the history of how women were treated in ancient civilization in previous religions, and then
compare that with what kind of change and reforms Islam suggests that so it's still part of the
heritage anyway. In fact, as we go on, probably we'll find out that
		
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			this kind of attitudes were carried over even after Jesus peace be upon him, by Jesus after him
through a poll, for example, as we'll see, well, perhaps we could take a look at the position of
woman and the nature of woman as perceived by by Jesus peace be upon him and turn to an examination
of some of the some of us in the New Testament, but you perhaps give us an indication of of what
Jesus view was on the nature and position of women? Well, I'm glad that you you specify Jesus, this
happening because there is a big difference between what Jesus Himself taught and between how things
were interpreted after him. Not only in the matter of women, but perhaps even on matters of belief.
		
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			So I think it's
		
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			it's important to keep the deployments separate.
		
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			It is fair to say that the position of Jesus peace be upon him was not negative at all towards
women. Indeed,
		
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			In all honesty, I'm not familiar with any statement that I have seen in the New Testament, quoting
Jesus peace be upon him as expressing this type of attitude that predominated in the testaments at
all. Indeed, in more than one gospel, we find that Jesus is quoted as rejecting the whole notion of
eternal sin.
		
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			As some theologian later on, interpreted that, and as such, if there is no basic, eternal sin, then
there is no responsibility for women either to carry the burden of that sin.
		
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			Indeed, we find that he expressed views which are a little even different from the Old Testament.
For example, in the Gospel of john, Chapter 16, he talks also about
		
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			the woman being pregnant and giving birth to a child. But he doesn't talk about that as atonement
for original sin. He simply says that a woman when the pain starts the labor, she feels anguish
than, you know, sorry. But as soon as she gives birth, she feels happy again, and there is no
nothing here that could be construed as expressing any negative feelings
		
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			towards women. One should remember also that among the followers of Jesus peace be upon him. When
women, it is true that none of them was of the 12 disciples, but there were other women who are
famous for followed him were accepted by him. And indeed, some of them were witnesses to some of the
important events in his life, as at least reported in the, in the Gospels. So his position
definitely was honorable about women, and a lot about the disciples of Jesus, did they hold the same
views as us? Well, not all of them, even though the predominant attitude by far was that of Paul,
who had the greatest influence, of course, on the native historical Christianity if you want.
		
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			But if you take a person like Peter, for example, in his first mission,
		
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			letter, the First Peter chapter three,
		
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			even though he asks women to be submissive to their men, but he still asked men to be compassionate
with them, so it doesn't really reflect a totally negative type of attitude towards women.
		
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			Paul, however, had a totally different attitude towards women. It's drastically different, I should
say, indeed,
		
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			was
		
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			views
		
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			not only on the question of women, but I am, as I mentioned earlier, even on matters of belief, like
divinity of Christ, and so on,
		
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			was the had greater influence on historical Christianity than the Own Words of Jesus himself? Look
at the New Testament, composed of 27 books total, more than half 14 books are written by a poem. So
there is a lot more of the words of than the word of Jesus Himself direct, or red ink, as in some
Bibles, words of Jesus Himself.
		
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			That's why many scholars call the second founders
		
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			of Christianity.
		
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			But in any case, one of the interesting, just referred to two or three interesting quotations from
		
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			in the First Timothy,
		
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			in chapters two, starting from verse 11, Paul says, Let the woman learn in silence with all
subjection.
		
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			But I suffered not a woman to teach, nor to use to assert authority over the men, but to be in
silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve, and Adam was not deceived. But the woman being
deceived, was in transgression. Notwithstanding, she shall be saved in childbearing, if they
continue in faith, and charity, and holiness with sobriety. So that's one, a second
		
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			petition that again, shows his attitude isn't the first Corinthians chapter 11.
		
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			In which in verse three, for example, he says, but I would have you know, that the head of every man
is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man and the head of Christ is God.
		
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			And later on in verse seven, he says, For a man who ought not to cover his head, for as much as he
is the image and glory of God.
		
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			But the woman is the glory of men. For the men is not of the woman, but there was
		
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			And
		
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			the man. In other words, he regards men as the image or glory of God. But woman is the glory not of
God, but of men. Well, obviously, the attitude he helped lead him to
		
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			practice celibacy and even to invite others who can't afford or are able to practice celibacy. And
some historians say that he never was married. He repeats the similar attitude and the second
Corinthians, For example, in chapter 11, when he again defeats the whole myth of the serpent, the
guide, the guiding if, for example,
		
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			when it said, quite interesting for a man like Paul, who was never made to make so many
pronouncements about, about women, so his his attitudes that were quite different from Jesus, these
attitudes that
		
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			are attributed to St. Paul, how can you reconcile, I wonder how one could reconcile this attitude
toward women with the veneration of Mary.
		
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			Mary definitely was an exception, make us be with her.
		
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			Because in the view of the clergy and theologian, or at least some say, she is regarded as the
Mother of God, that's not that's not a view. Because again, in Islam, we believe that Jesus was a
Holy Prophet, but not not divine.
		
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			Indeed, that this veneration was went so far, as you know, to the point of almost considering her
above a human level. And some of the statutes in some European cathedrals for example, shows Mary
standing, holding the whole world in one hand and her son Jesus, in the in the other hand, and we
have seen already in the 11th program in this series, how the myth of God mothers are God the
mother, it did exist in previous or ancient civilization in more than one place. So I would say the
case of May, was definitely an exception, just as in the past, there was worship even of woman or
goddesses, but sin, the overall attitude towards women was not that healthy or fish.
		
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			Okay, is there any indication that this view of women that was preferred by Paul is any indication
that this continued to influence the position of the church throughout history there are lots of
indication of this for example, we find the Nicki the famous historian, and I quote speaks of God,
this field fierce incentives, which for so conspicuous and served a task, a portion of the writing
of the fathers, and then continues later, woman was represented as the thought of him. As the mother
of all human ends, she should be ashamed at the very soul that she is a woman, she should live in
continuing penance, on account of the curse she has brought upon the world, she should be ashamed of
		
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			her dress, for it is the memorial of her phone. She should be especially ashamed of her beauty, for
it is the most potent instrument of the devil. This other words of historian Nicky, St. Augustine,
		
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			talked about similar things also, that
		
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			men alone is the image of God,
		
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			separately from one from woman, but woman alone cannot be an image of God sent Chris the song said
similar things. But perhaps to conclude one of the most sketchy attacks on women was by father or
center Chilean, who says, Do you know that you are each and Eve, the sentence of God on this * of
yours lives in this age, the gift must of necessity live to you are the devil's gateway, you are the
unseen as of that would have been achieved. You are the first desert as of the Divine Law. You are
Shiva persuades him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroy it so easily God's
image men on account on account of your desertion is that that is that even the Son of God
		
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			had to die. So the attitudes seem to have persisted unfortunately not in accordance with the
teachings of Jesus, but the teaching of God which was opposed to the views of Jesus.
		
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			We have to leave it at that for today. We've exhausted our time. We want to thank you for being our
guest invite you back next week, we'll continue our discussion of the social system of Islam. Thank
you for watching. Assalamu alaikum peace be unto you