Jamal Badawi – Jesus 27 – Later Unitarians 1 Servetus

			Alaikum and welcome once again to the southern focus.
		

			Today's topic will be the 27th on the series on Jesus to delivered messenger of Allah. Tonight
inshallah who will be discussing a new segment that on the laser humanitarians on your host, Chad
nation here with me once again from St. Mary's University is Dr. Jim algorithm. So I can
		

			query please have a summary of last week's program. So to live in the previous program, we ended the
segment that dealt basically with the development of the idea of deification of Jesus peace be upon
him, in order to indicate that this is an idea that took a long period of time to crystallize or
develop.
		

			More particularly in the last problem the eighth. in that segment, we examined the period which
followed the Council of calcium in 451, which was the fourth Council, and very briefly were
indicated that there was an important city council, the second Constantinople Constantinople
conference,
		

			where the difference was essentially about the nature of Jesus, whether he had one nature as the
Eastern Church upheld, or two natures, as the church of Rome, upheld. The sixth one was the third,
Constantinople. Again, to emphasize and reiterate, the two natures of Jesus are two wills,
		

			the seventh one, which was the second Nicene Council, which meant to settle this idea of the worship
of icons,
		

			the eighth, which was the fourth, Constantinople,
		

			dealt with a very touchy issue as to whether the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father, as the
Bishop of Constantinople upheld, or whether it proceeds from both the Father and the Son, as the
church of Rome upheld, then we said that this heroine, the split between the church into eastern and
western church, we indicated also that they have been several councils after that, but these were
basically Catholic councils since this split has already taken taken place, there's perhaps nearly a
dozen of them. And finally, will indicate that both groups survived Eastern and Western churches,
mainly because of the weakening of the rule of Brahmins and because of the spread of Islam and the
		

			tolerance that it showed to people from various sects, without trying to push one sector or the
others to follow the rest of them. And we started to discuss very briefly also the Reformation
movement, the motives behind it, how was it developed and their basic principles?
		

			Now, in the previous program, we discuss some of the early Unitarians
		

			like to ask you, if there was any situation during the Reformation? In other words, they did they
have any contact with the Reformation movement? Yes, there have been several people who have tried
to initiate some contacts with the deformation movements may be in the hopes of joining forces, to
really re establish the teaching of Jesus peace be upon him, perhaps the most important personality
and most important figure and then his service was born in Spain.
		

			There were others also,
		

			who tried to get this kind of contact, for example, separatists sorry, very hard to win Calvin over.
		

			But it appears that the leaders of their formation movements,
		

			were interested only in systematic aspects of information, but not the perfect information. In other
words, the emphasis was more on the church organization rather than
		

			reviewing or revising the long standing tradition and church dominance.
		

			So you mentioned service to incentive might be worthwhile to seem a bit more about him, ie his his
background and his upbringing. I know that as a physician, perhaps you're familiar with services
because he was one of those who
		

			wrote about the blood circulation in Europe, one of the first in Europe.
		

			Well, a good review of that which will draw on quite heavily in this part is from the excellent work
called Jesus, messengers of Prophet of Islam by Arthur Rahim I mentioned his reference before. And
the book actually is based on Western sources on Christian sources that he quotes from, as well as
the upbringing of servetus. He was born in Spain in 1511. At the time when there was a great deal of
unrest in the church, and lots of questioning of the dogmas of the church and the nature of
Christianity.
		

			When servetus was still a child,
		

			Luther began his revolt against the church. And his movement, as you know, spread really very fast.
At that time, the relationship the traditional relationship between Muslims and Christians in Spain,
where service was born, began to change. Traditionally, both Muslims and Christians span have lived
peacefully and enjoy a very good relationship with each other. They cooperated for centuries to
build a great civilization in Spain, which was really the jewels of Europe, as we all know, that's
quite different from the colonization of other countries, there was a great deal of cooperation
between Muslims and Christians there. But unfortunately, the the Christian crusades against Muslims
		

			in the East created an atmosphere of hatred and fanaticism, and spin against Muslims. And the anger
of Christian began to be directed towards the Spanish Muslims. I say Spanish Muslim, because many
generations have already lived in have been born there really, this anger and fanaticism and
intolerance was not only directed against Muslims, but also against Jews. Because Jews enjoyed their
golden age, really, under the Muslim rule. And many of the Jews as recognized by some historians,
like Jim mentioned, it was a joke himself, that this was really the golden era of Judaism where we
had full freedom. And they reached many high positions in the course of the Caleb's. So the anger
		

			was against both the Muslims as well as the Jews. We all heard, of course, about the Spanish
Inquisition, which went into action,
		

			with a mandate to convert by force, not any non Christian, but any non Catholic. Anyone has to be
converted, but force, Muslims and Jews who refuse to publicly confess the Trinity, were put to the
sword yesterday and sometimes give horrible pictures of 1000s of people being, you know,
slaughtered, because of their faith.
		

			servetus was a *
		

			with this bloodshed. And he really began to examine the Bible himself to see whether there's any
basis for that fanaticism against Muslims or Jews, for that matter, really. And he found that
Trinity, the idea of Trinity does not really have any foundation in the Bible. And the teaching of
the Bible or the text of the Scripture does not necessarily support every dogma that the chairs seem
to be insisting upon. Services seems to have come up with some very interesting ideas. This is share
them. Yes, he tried, actually, as a young man, and we not all young people are always idealistic and
enthusiastic, you know.
		

			He was very honest. And he felt that it is his duty to inform the world about his conclusions about
the truth that he felt he found.
		

			On the other hand, because of his idealism, which was very praiseworthy, he figured out that, if the
truth is being is followed, then the Christians who are persecuted Jews and Muslims, as well as
Muslims, and Jews will all have much more closeness in terms of their beliefs, some of the major
theological differences between Christianity and Judaism, on one hand, and between Christianity and
Islam, on the other hand, was this idea of divinity of Jesus and the idea of, of Trinity. So he
figured that this would be an excellent thing if if some closeness can be arrived at and traces of
the Trinity can be examined, perhaps, to be disproved according to the scripture itself. It is
		

			possible that these three communities can live together in peace. He thought, initially, maybe he
was naive, that the best channel to get his ideas out was through the Reformation movement because
the Reformation movement itself was rebelling
		

			revolting Indian is the control of the chairs.
		

			And, again, like I indicated earlier, the he failed to realize that the quarrels between the
Reformation movements and the Catholic Church, why it may have had some theological arguments or
theological differences, but essentially also, it was who should rule this church organization of
the church itself. Now,
		

			even the idea of considering, or thinking, of considering the review of the tradition and non
standing dogma, the discovery of the truth of the teaching of Christ may constitute a danger for the
leadership, religious leadership of both really the Catholic and the Protestant, for that matter,
because, after all, I mean, if it's proven that Jesus never claimed to be divine, the whole basis of
the power and position and authority of the church, be it Catholic or Protestant would not have a
sound basis or the they have to defend their, their position and their institutions. That's why we
will see that the Joint Forces even though they were at odds with each other, but both the Catholics
		

			and Protestant joined forces, to make sure that they get rid of
		

			observer tests and
		

			make sure that his ideas does not spread among the public. As to how he tried to share his ideas, he
thought that the best way to start would be to approach the leaders of the formation on a personal
basis. He wasn't just a sort of revolutionary carrying a flag or anything of that nature. But he
tried first to get in touch with Calvin in particular, he traveled balance.
		

			And he tried to explain that Jesus was a human and a prophet, and that it is a duty of every
Christian to re establish the true teaching of Christ, not what the church necessarily has offered
to the public.
		

			In one of his early trips, he went to Brazil, and talked to some of the leaders of the reformation,
indicating to them that Jesus really did not pre exist. And that the, all the prophets of the
Israelites spoke about the Son of God in the future tense, not somebody who's already there's a
tournament and we'll come down.
		

			But he did not find too much receptiveness on their part.
		

			Then he,
		

			he went to, to Germany, but he could not practice medicine because he didn't know German.
		

			So he moved to Lyons. And he kept corresponding with Calvin in particular. But apparently, Calvin
wanted to remain a leader also. So he didn't pay much attention to,
		

			to services.
		

			Then finally, he came up to the conclusion that it is too time, really, to try and declare his ideal
through the professional channels, or through trying to win over Calvin. So he resorted to another
means, which actually hasten is tragic. And
		

			our Senior Services seems to have run against a stone wall in terms of trying to communicate with
the Reformation leaders. So how did he try and express his views, they go public? Yes, he did. And
actually found it the best way actually, would be to publish and disseminate his convictions and his
findings. For example, in 1531,
		

			he published two books in the same year.
		

			One of them which is perhaps the most important classic, really, is called the errors of Trinity.
That was for the church, the most dangerous book, and that's why it was burnt with him. We'll talk
about that later, at least hanging
		

			around his waist when he was burned. And the other book was called the two dialogues on changing
		

			these two books, shook Europe. People did not have memory, in recent memory at that time of anyone
who wrote about faith in such a daring and courageous manner as self attested.
		

			As far as as the church is concerned, the church was even more shaken by this kind of books. And
they began to hound services. He was forced to change his name and actually write under different
names. But perhaps his fatal error and mistake was that despite the fact that he was rebuffed before
by pelvin, he was still having as one right
		

			I put a child like faith in Calvin, but maybe somehow we can win him over. And as such disseminate
this ideas faster.
		

			The reality was the contrary, after Calvin read the two books written by servetus, he hated him. And
he said that this man really was dangerous, dangerous for both institutions, Catholics and
Protestants alike. Now, he was very worried that the idea of this young enthusiast constitute two
types of dangers. One, of course, is the one we mentioned before that it's certainly the religious
establishment, whether it is Catholic or Protestant, for that matter. And the other thing also is
that Calvin and other leaders of the Reformation movement did not wish to go to way too far away
from the traditional church, because this would expose them to more criticism and more persecution,
		

			even by the Catholic Church and we were in big struggle as we we are known. This is why we find that
		

			it was not only Calvin, who rebuffed separatists. But even not even Luther himself was forced to
publicly
		

			condemned services in 1639.
		

			Well, during this period of time, when he when he's publishing, more or less, how did he earn his
living?
		

			He was a physician. And he tried to practice medicine. And despite the fact that, as you know, of
course, as a physician yourself that it's quite demanding, you have to practice medicine. Amazingly
enough, he was very productive.
		

			As we mentioned earlier in the program, he was among the first in Europe to write about the
circulation of the blood, but that was preceded several centuries by Muslim physician so probably he
learned from them since he lived in Spain.
		

			But you would be surprised, ironically enough, that he found refuge for 13 years in the house of an
old friend of his by the name of Peter Pan Mir, who was the Catholic Archbishop of Vienna.
		

			And that's quite interesting. It's not just a friendship, they may seem to indicate even but some of
the thought leadership within the catholic church itself, in their own hearts,
		

			probably knew that Trinity is not really the true teachings of Jesus, deification of Jesus might
have not been I've got noticed, I am not totally certain. But why should a Catholic Archbishop give
refuge to a man who very professed anti Trinitarian person who believes in Jesus as a human being
only and as a prophet messenger.
		

			So this is interesting. I like to go back to services and his relationship with Calvin, DC, try and
contact Calvin. Within this period of time, he still continued, at least by correspondence,
sometimes he visited. But he used a lot of correspondence with, with Calvin because by that time,
Calvin became the foremost thinkers of the Reformation movement.
		

			There were so much correspondence to the point that
		

			servetus published a book, which he called
		

			the restoration of Christianity. And in that book, in one chapter, he reproduced 30 letters that
were exchanged between himself and Calvin. And apparently, Calvin was upset even about the
publication of those letters, because some of those letters showed that Calvin was not as one right,
I put it the typical meek Christian, that he seems to be educated. How could this young man, you
know, tell me about all these theories, they seem, seem to have been, you know, too proud perhaps of
his position as the leader of the formation of one of the major leaders.
		

			This
		

			third book, that service has published and led to more condemnation of him, and led again to the
more collaboration between both the Catholic and the Protestant movement to destroy his books, and
some historians say they only there are only two known copies of his books.
		

			But the crunch actually came Finally, in 1546.
		

			When Calvin rose to serve with us, threatening him, said, should you ever try to get
		

			to Geneva if you come? If you ever come to Geneva, I will never let you escape alive.
		

			But service didn't take that seriously. And actually, he went to meet with him again to try and
persuade him. But he was surprised to find that Calvin, in fact, was good to his left
		

			and that he has already collaborated with his own opponents, the Catholic Church.
		

			So he had him, he had service services, arrested, he was put in jail for trial,
		

			on charges of heresy.
		

			But since it has, on the other hand was a very popular physician. And with the help of some of his
former patients, he was able to escape.
		

			Then he decided that he should escape to Naples, he goes to Naples. But his problem, again, is that
in order to get through Naples, you have to take the road, which goes through
		

			the city itself through Geneva. And that's, of course, the big danger because he's already
		

			already an escapee from from jail. So he tried to disguise himself as best as he could. But while he
was passing through the city to get to the road to Naples,
		

			somebody recognized him. He was arrested, taken back to jail, and this time, he could not make an
escape.
		

			He was tried. And it's an interesting trial, I cannot really spend all the time, you know,
mentioning it, but perhaps I can read you a little, as part of at least the verdict that was given
by the by the by the courts.
		

			Part of it reads like this, the court says that you that is you serve with us, has neither shame,
nor horror, of setting yourself against the divine majesty of the Holy Trinity. And so you have
obstinately tried to infect the world with your stinking political poison. And then they go on to
say, for these and other reasons, desiring to perish the church of god of such infection, and cut
off the rotten member. We now in writing, give final sentence and condemn you, my conservators to be
bound and taken to the chapel. And they're attached to a stake and burned with your books to ashes.
And so you shall finish your days and give examples to others who would commit like that that's more
		

			or less typical of the this type of you know,
		

			trials that went to honor this time. On October 26 1553. Server tests was taken.
		

			He was fastened to a trunk of a tree, which was fixed on the ground, with his feet, barely touching
the ground.
		

			a crown of straw sprinkled with brimstone was put on his head reminds us with the stories that
appear in the gospels about the crucifixion of Jesus.
		

			And then a abundance of wood a number of bundles of woodwork put around his legs.
		

			He was tied to that steak with an iron chain. around his neck, they used a course twist to drop,
fitted tightly, and then the fire was put on the fire tormented him so much that some of the
onlookers, just out of compassion tried to increase the fire so that they might help end his misery.
		

			Some historians said that some of the eyewitnesses said that he kept squirming for approximately two
hours, until he died around his waist, they put his book The errors of eternity. However, some say
that it is likely that this book was rescued, half burned, and that it is still probably in
existence.
		

			However, what happens to separate the city was not unique.
		

			And this
		

			titled
		

			A very tragic death.
		

			His writings have any information about their survival? Yes, in fact, the some writers and
historians even quote excerpts of some of his writings, especially the very famous book, the errors
of strength, we actually give you some idea about that, at one point, for example, he says that the
philosophers have invented a third theme, which they called the third person, that is the Holy
Spirit. And as a result of this, he said they contrived and imaginary Trinity, three beings in one
nature, but in reality, three gods or 134 gods.
		

			Then he continues to say that
		

			what they say really means that there are three beings which are different and distinct.
		

			One which means he probably affected the sun, one is born of another,
		

			and another. That's the Holy Spirit probably means
		

			is being phased out of the other two. Despite all of that, they say that all of these three are shut
up in one Josh young, he's very clearly was very, very powerful, you know, in his opposition to the,
to the concept of strength. And then he says that by admitting these three, which they call three
persons in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit by admitting this the person's
		

			day, in fact, admit a plurality of beings at rurality of entities, a plurality of essences, after
orality of substances. And he says, and if we wish to take or if we take the Word of God, strictly,
we will have also plurality of gods. In other words, you start from the assumption that these are
the persons in one godhood. But if you really look at it closely, you ended up really logically with
three Gods rather than one as the oldest Mutt has always emphasized. And then he comments on that,
and he says, that you cannot accept the argument that the three persons which are distinct, are of
the same essence,
		

			a penalty affinity, what he probably means by that, that if you have three distinct persons, then
you cannot have identical essence. In other words, that essence also cannot be identical. So you're
really ending up not really thinking in terms of one, but then he continues to say, Why should I be
blamed?
		

			Or why should we blame rather, why should we blame the creditor rights? I think he probably means by
that the priciest I think that's the common term. Now, no one will believe the two gods, why should
we blame those people who say basically the same thing, because they speak about three Gods from one
composite substance. So what basically is the differences difference really, which is not very
significant. And he says that despite the fact that some people do not use the expression that these
three are the three persons are put together, but they use another term, they say, they are
constituted together. And he said that God's cannot be constituted out of three beams. This is this
		

			is not monotheism, he insisted, and when he goes on to explain the impact or the effects of this
type of belief, and he says that, maybe I can get that, by expectation, for as soon as we try to
think about God, we are turned aside to three phantoms for mental images. So that new kind of unity
remains in our conception, what else is being without gods, but being unable to think about God,
when there is always present to our understanding, a haunting kind of confusion of three beings, the
Father, the Son,
		

			by which we are forever deluded into supposing, that you are thinking about
		

			so his, his writing, and his very strong logic, in trying to point out that this desperate attempt
of speaking about three in one and wonder three is really an impossibility was was quite,
		

			quite powerful. And maybe that explains why the official establishment official church course was
quite upset with him until the dangers to their own position and their own establishment that these
ideas might reach the common man and he says, Hey, you know the Bible actually support what services
and other Unitarians Of course before him
		

			are clean. Thank you very much, Dr. Roland, very, very interesting topic. And thank you all for
joining us once again here in Simon focus. As always, we would most appreciate any questions or any
comments you may have. Our phone number on our address will be appearing on your screen from
audible. I certainly hope to see you next week.