The Science of Vaccines – Panel Discussion

Bismillah al Rahman al Rahim al hamdu Lillah wa salatu salam ala rasulillah while le wasapi Ramallah wide, said Mr Alaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh all peace and thanks to do so due to Allah Subhana Allah He says peace blessings and salutations upon our Master and exemplarity Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam Allen was Eleanor haven't become I welcome you to the snad Academy. We are coming to you live on the radio station voice of the cape on YouTube as well as Facebook on various platforms such as the snad Academy platforms, we do have a problem with our internet Academy YouTube channel at the moment. So unfortunately, we're not broadcasting the but we are broadcasting to the

Facebook page. So unless Alan from whichever pet platform you're joining us on, whether that be on the radio, airwaves or online, we welcome all tonight's discussion between either either will be about the vaccines in the light of science, of course, the science around vaccines, and we are only dealing with our scientists this evening with the thought how will not be joining us because we have covered basically everything we need to cover as far as the Sharia is concerned. Alhamdulillah so we are now going to focus our attention on the science around the vaccines. And of course, we've heard that the vaccines have rolled in already and the program is about to start. So now the information

becomes even more pertinent. We are so privileged this evening Alhamdulillah to have experts in the fields, some of the leading experts in the fields from our own communities now Mashallah. So I will introduce them in a moment but let's officially kick this off with our official introduction and that will immediately commence insha Allah

so with us tonight discussing some of the scientific facts that we need to know is Dr. tasneem Suleyman. She is an associate lecturer in biology at UW See, that's the University of Eastern Cape. She's now working in close collaboration with the division of medical virology, Stellenbosch University, where she previously held a postdoctoral fellowship. She has also done her PhD research on the size good itis of 2002 the epidemic that took place then at the Institute of Neurology in Bonn, Germany, where she trained in the lab of the European expert in Coronavirus, research, Professor Christian drosten, then Alhamdulillah we have Dr. Shamim gem delay, who we also had

privilege of meeting him and learning from him. I think it wasn't Friday night 100 ala. He is a senior researcher at the UCT lung Institute, who trained in medical virology immunology, in which he has his PhD as well as epidemiology. Normally, they work on tuberculosis, but since the start of the epidemic, they focus the attention on COVID-19. Of course, Dr. tasnim also, as is one of she's known as one of the scientists all this definitely the fastest of Africa, they've actually isolated the virus and she will tell us more about that. inshallah. So now bring my guests up in the studio, first and foremost, our very own and this is why I'm not introducing him as a guest anymore. He's

almost like a co host now and hamdulillah to these programs that none other than Dr. Salim Parker said him I said I want to connect with legato Polycom Salaam wa rahmatullah wa barakato. Chicken once again for this very informative program, which I think is absolutely needed. And just from the attendance of the previous ones, I think we are impacting and making a voice about what the science is as far as Coronavirus disease is concerned for gliffy COMM And of course document you so I didn't give you a very formal introduction. Because I think our guests, our viewers, at least they've they've, you know made you many times before and you are our community doctor as well, GP in Alice's

river for many, many years. And Savannah, and I'm making sure to mention that because every time I mentioned, ducks advocate angels, and he always reminds me most importantly, I'm a GP in Alsace river hamdulillah but also an expert in travel medicine and a expert reviewer of certain medical journals, including ones pertaining to vaccine. And as I said before, Dr. tasneem Suleyman in some circles, the fact that as names with the man in other circles, the infamous doctor doesn't use anyone Jazakallah Hayden, for joining us this evening. I hope you're well inshallah,

I would like to thank you for having me. And it's a pleasure to be here. Hope I can do justice to this platform. And I'm a bit curious to why I'm infamous. But I

put my nose down and do and I just tend to wear that book and they call the girl it's just to remain curious about that and not go any further.

And then of course, you have Dr. Shamim gem delay as Helen masa, Helena Samaniego, hotel obrigado.

Dr. Shamim, I think you are on mute some of the other we don't get any sound from you at the moment. But while you're getting your sound sorted inshallah, you can just speak when you add and then I'll know that your your sound is there, we will move on immediately to questions. Since we have such a gem back program this evening of we are in a very important time we find ourselves in a very critical time, and everybody now needs to make this this big decision. And people have the right to know people are interested. They're curious, they want to know for their own sake, their own benefit about the ins and outs of the vaccine. So Dr. Salim, let's kick this off with yourself. You know how

vaccines really work? How are they of benefit to humankind? Is it in fact a victim of its own success? Bismillah Dr. Salim

Mother of him. Yes, sir. I consider vaccines to be a victim of their own success. And, and I think that's why the resistance and the apathy and also the what's called the vaccine hesitancy is arising currently. But let's take a step back, I mean, common cause of death, and in the in previous centuries, since, like last last century, but also in certain third world countries or communist

diseases. So now let's look at what vaccines have done. And we know that as far as prevention of death is concerned, vaccines, the provision of clean water and of course, antibiotics has been the major major sources of children, for example, that dying at birth or at the young age, and just put it in perspective. Currently, the World Health Organization estimates that two to 3 million data prevented due to vaccines every single year, two to 3 million deaths. We're not even talking about damage, for example, brain damage due to polio or paralysis due to polio. We're talking purely updates. Are we doing enough? No, we not estimated that another 1.5 million deaths every single year

can still be prevented, if everyone who is school needs to be vaccinated, actually has that provided for them. So no, this sounds like fingers. But look at the let's look at real examples. I mean, we know all our kids have been vaccinated against measles, for example. Now, of course, we ever we look at any vaccine, we're looking at the benefits. And then we also look at the side effects or what we call the risk of giving the vaccine. And measles is a clear cut example. It's been estimated that if you look at the last 15 years 12 million deaths have been prevented. Some people say even 17 million, but it's a lower figure. 12 million deaths have been prevented due to Vex, vaccinating

children against measles vaccine. What are the known side effects, how many deaths occurred due to the vaccine itself. In a 10 year period, only six dates have been documented. People always say this person has a vaccine, and then you passed away two days later. But if there's no proof that the majority of allegations have been associated with the vaccine itself, so let's if we consider measles only over a 10 year period, six days to the vaccine itself, because it's a live virus that is used in the vaccination. Let's look at another example. polio, everyone knows about, but no one has seen it. Why? Because over the last 40 years, every year about 100 million 100 and 40 million

children are born, virtually all of them are vaccinated against it. And it is estimated that more than 15 million deaths have been prevented you to use the polio vaccine. But we don't see polio disease anymore. But what do we see we see the side effect of the vaccine. And this is specifically due to the oral polio vaccine, which is called the live attenuated polio vaccine. Now, what happens there is that the virus we teach is not enough

immunity in the community, and what do we see we preventing millions of deaths, but we're seeing about 400 of these.

What would you call vaccine acquired infections of polio globally, every single year, at the moment, the vaccine is so effective that we're seeing less than 200 cases of the virus of the disease itself. So we see more effects of the virus of the vaccine than of the virus itself. But the reason for that is over a 40 year period, virtually every single child has been vaccinated. Now, if there's a problem with vaccination, and this happened, for example, in a country like the DRC, the Democratic Republic of Congo, at the beginning of last year, there was an Ebola outbreak, and then of course there COVID as well. So the measles campaign and vaccination was stopped uninterrupted and

what resulted from that 6002

Died are preventable, this could have been prevented if these children caught the vaccines. So this is clearly a case of this very little of the disease because we doing so well with the vaccines, we seeing more and more of the vaccine side effects. But we see that because we vaccinating either 240 230 to 140 million children every year, preventing millions of deaths every single year. And we see a small number of side effects which are there, it's real. Now, if we look, as I say, we have to vaccinate every child against every single disease all the time. Say No. Sometimes, for example, in the case of cholera and elder, older cojones, who, when maybe 2030 years ago will remember that they

were vaccinated against cholera, that was part of the vaccine schedule that time

so that they don't get cholera and don't bring it back to South Africa. So but what happened lately is that this clean water in Saudi Arabia that prevents cholera from being transmitted, and therefore we don't need to give cholera vaccinations anymore. Similarly, if we look

about the vaccines that we give up a judge, we all know that we have to take millions of kaiako vaccine, the meningitis vaccine. So what happens is that this, this particular it's a bacteria or the virus actually came from Sub Saharan Africa, we call it these meningitis belt, which is Senegal, in the west to Ethiopia in the east. Now, every single year, these epidemics of meningitis, they, and what the World Health Organization they implemented was to have every single child vaccinated against one particular type, which is called the serogroup. A, but let's just call it meningitis vaccination in Sub Saharan Africa, and from seeing a quarter million cases in one particular year,

with 25,000 deaths, and also about 50,000 children either going deaf or being paralyzed over the last few years because of vaccination. Guess what we see in certain countries, not a single cause of meningococcal meningitis solely due to the success of this particular vaccine. And lastly, just to emphasize the point, since we started pneumococcal which is, which is the bacteria causes causing pneumonia in children in South Africa. Before we started vaccinating, we had over 100,000 hospitalized children every single year, with about 5000 deaths. After vaccination, we see less than 50,000 hospitalizations with less than 2000 days. So a percentage drop of more than 50% solely due

to the benefits of vaccination. And this that's why I want to put it in perspective that worldwide the benefits of vaccination has been proven. Yes, they are always going to be certain ones that don't work well. The SS zilliqa. One is a case of point where initially it was thought to work well in South Africa, then because of mutation of mutations, there was a problem as far as the frequency against mild disease is concerned. But the science was open to it, it was going to be rolled out but because of this limitation, it was held back and another vaccine was brought into its place. So vaccination, when we look at it, we look at the benefits compared to the hazards but the benefits in

the vast majority of cases far outweigh the risks of taking the vaccine.

I want to start that off as an introduction. Should very much Dr. Signing that was an excellent introduction. very insightful. This is the sixth he does provide quite a bit of clarity for the law. You know, that is something that that I was actually taken aback by the the approach to the acid is, like I said previously, it would have been quite an easy move to just say, you know what, we need to save face to God going through this thing. But as soon as a problem was discovered,

regardless of the nature of that problem, Matt is really versed in this, this shows a level of honesty and clarity, at least to myself. Dr. tasneem. Again, welcome to our panel. It's a it's an honor and a privilege to have you with us, you must mute By the way, we do understand that you have worked with coronaviruses for a long time. One of your speciality is being able to grow them in a lab in it is actually interesting when I when I meet you, when we when we spoke on WhatsApp, and you told me you you will integrate analysis long before they became popular, interesting way of putting it. So could you tell us a bit about this, why it is important and also how this could affect

vaccine development. Maybe even just a bit about your journey in achieving what you've achieved with regards to this current status.

money to him. That is a loaded question. And when you ask someone about the love of their life, they will naturally go on talking for hours. Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury to do that. But Coronavirus

Definitely other love of my life.

Hope my husband didn't hear that. But anyway, moving along

well, okay, God if I should actually clarify we should we should qualify your statement right. The study of Coronavirus is

not Oh,

okay, so

people have asked me when I undertook studying Coronavirus, did I ever foresee a pandemic of this nature? The answer is no. In fact, I had no idea what was coming, I had no idea what I was getting myself into. And it sounds a bit.

I don't know, I don't know what the word is, it sounds a bit like, cool when when you say like, oh, I've been growing viruses in the lab. But that just rolled as part of the study that I needed to do. So basically, when it comes to virus culture, I just like to explain it a little bit about it. What it is, is that we take a sample from a patient, and we put it into what we call cell culture, as in onto a in a dish that has cells growing inside it. And the reason for this is that unlike bacteria, which can grow on surfaces, and outside of cells, viruses need to get inside a cell in order to be able to replicate and reproduce and proliferate. So that is the one of the fundamental differences

between viruses and bacteria. And also, which contributes significantly to the complexity of viral disease, firstly, and also any kind of laboratory technique. So that is, I call virus culture, pretty much an art because there's no one size fits all for every kind of virus that there is. And also, when people

spread the negative impression that Oh, we're growing viruses in the lab, it's this big, bad thing. It's not like 20 years ago, or around there or even longer. Growing viruses was one of the ways of diagnosing them. So virus culture was a diagnostic technique. Now we have these fancy molecular platforms that can do high throughput analysis analyses, and we're able to diagnose viruses in a much less in a much safer way. Let's get to see. Also another point about virus culture is that it's a highly sensitive process. Like I said, there's no one size fits all, like one cell line, like one type of cell, for argument's sake, may not work for one virus, but it may work very well for another

for example, influenza grows well in chicken embryo. So basically, it would be like a chicken egg that grows influenza, but that would not work for SAS Coronavirus, or, or any of the Coronavirus is of the very few viruses that can be grown in that way, simply because of the genetic makeup of the virus. Even though it may look like influenza and SARS caused the same kind of symptoms, they affect the the spiritual chat, etc. They're entirely different in how they grow in how they replicate. And basically one of the problems with this pandemic at the moment is that we are chasing a moving target. And that was something that came to mind when Dr. Salim commented on the AstraZeneca

vaccine, the targets simply changed. And with viruses and mutations, we don't know what's coming next. And I don't think the world has ever faced a pandemic of this nature. Therefore, we see mutations at a rate that is not common for coronaviruses Coronavirus, is, although they have one of the largest RNA, in fact, the largest RNA genomes, which means it is about three or more times larger than the genome of influenza that that makes it more complicated. So basically, there's more room should be more room for error. However, influenza is far more likely to it's far more prone to mutations than coronaviruses. I'm not going to get into detail with that because I can, that's a

very interesting subject for me. However,

mutation, the mutation rate for coronaviruses is incredibly low. That's why some HIV biologists in our departments have even commented that it's a very boring virus at the genetic level, because we don't see mutations often.

Which is why this mutation kind of surprised me Initially, I didn't take it seriously until I saw the data and how it was actually out competing the previous strain. And also, I'd like to add that the reason we found itself South African scientists found the strain is because we were looking for it, we were actively serving, but I'm willing to bet that there are many more strains around the world that may or may not have this level of of severity or that may not be this significant, but they definitely are multiple variants out there. Oh, yes, I would like to also clarify that we can't really call it a strain as yet, because we haven't done the necessary analyses to be able to prove

that this virus that this variant, the 501 y v two, we can't

reprove, we haven't proven yet that it is, it has enough changes as compared to the first wave of virus, that that can call it a strain, we have to be able to see a functional difference in order to be able to label it as a strain. So for now, let's just stick to the nomenclature of being of it being a variant, although it's very easy to slip into. It's just a slip of the nomenclature. However, those are my sentiments right now, the fact that the virus is a moving target. And to be honest, growing this virus was a little bit more difficult than the first way but I don't know why. But I'm not the only person who struggled apparently the scientists at the African Health Research

Institute also wasn't the easiest thing for them to do. And they also had to try a few tricks and, and things that were not common for SAS Coronavirus culture. So I was very surprised when one of my samples actually we're so at the moment for the public. Often the expression clearing the virus is like, Oh my god, what are they doing? So Hannah, it sounds really scary. She likes us anyway, loving it. So could you just clarify, in the simplest of terms, what is you know, why is this not something scary, and you didn't you didn't explain it, but for the person she's talking about.

I'm gonna make it super simple. It's like farming. If you put a seed like an out from an apple, if you take a cover, and you put it into the ground and you let it grow, that is what we're doing. We're basically mimicking the human body environment in the laboratory to allow this virus to grow, so that we can

so we can have a pure culture with which to do research, I also have to emphasize that virus, a virus, a pure virus culture is absolutely fundamental for any kind of development of any antiviral drug or vaccine. Without this, we can do nothing we will never know the first phase of how does this virus react in the lab? What is the the the dose of whatever antiviral drug we're going to use? Where do we start, this is a starting point. Without this, it is virtually impossible to do any kind of research that will lead to any kind of definitive therapy. So it isn't something dangerous. It requires obviously, certain conditions and chain personnel and skilled scientists and also the

absolute use of a biosafety level three laboratory is mandatory for a for this Coronavirus to safety level three organism. So it's a risk group study, let's just call it that. So there are certain requirements and rules and regulations in place to make sure that the personnel working on it are safe and the public are safe from any kind of mishaps and accidents. And in any case, you're more likely to get the virus out there in the world going to the supermarket then you iron the actual apology because of the kind of safety gear we will work with. And also, if you look at it, each person who has COVID-19 is actually a culture vessel. So what we're doing in the lab is not very

much different from having a person sitting next to you being infected with the virus. Okay, awesome. Sugar ice, Dr. Shami must have accidentally just lifted. I am going to take this point. Okay.

Dr. Shamim is back. So I conducted Seamus, he accidentally left st for a moment. I'm going to take this moment before we move on. I see we have as we normally do we have comments. Sometimes the comments are genuine questions. Sometimes they are people's in link, sometimes people get a bit rude and so on. So let me just at the at the outset, lay out some ground rules. Any questions are welcome. Regardless of how critical the question may seem. rude comments will not be tolerated. You will be warned by getting your comments deleted initially, and then you could get kicked off as well. Some of the questions have been covered already see that, in fact, easy. Brian started off

with a very old question, will the vaccine predict one from getting COVID I'm going to address to Dr. Shamim but in the same questioner

or somebody says My question is well

and in the same question, it goes on and he says and is it halal now this is something we've covered extensively in the program with Mr. Parker on see more than welcome to revisit that particular program they and the in the comments seem to be getting a bit personal. So this type of comment will not be tolerated. Asking a particular person I'll show the comment and show you this. This is why I think this particular type of comment is not acceptable. This is not directed at a person and and the family as opposed to

you know, as opposed to being a genuine Christian. So yeah, please refrain from doing things like that and we will have to ask you to specifically keep them as questions as critical as they may be beaten the light Allah. Dr. Shamim is one for you in sha Allah. We are now getting the Johnson and Johnson and Pfizer vaccines. How do they differ from the students

vaccines that we weren't getting before. Could you shed some light on that for us? Bismillah.

Salah Miko, can you hear me? Yes, we can hear you loud and clear. bismil

Yes. So

do you want me to first address the first question that you put up on the screen? Yes, I think so. let's let's let's start off with that inshallah.

Okay. Can you put back the question on the screen for for everybody to see? And? Absolutely.

Okay. So the question here is, will the vaccine protect one from getting COVID? Now,

the question can be interpreted in different ways based on what people could COVID? Right. So I'm going to answer the question in two ways. The first question, I'm going to break it down into two question. Can the vaccine protect one from getting an infection?

And can the vaccine protect one from developing diseases if they do get to infection? So for the first one, they also did vaccine that have already shown if you

were to have out of three people who will actually protected from being infected. So these types of questions are much harder to answer. Because I was expanded on I think before in one of the talks, to be able to make inferences and to make supposition about the general population, you need to have a sample size that is big enough to answer certain questions. So for the first one, there is only one vaccine, I think so far that has shown to be protective against the infection. And in the second part of whether it protects against disease. There are two answers to that as well, to some of the vaccines have shown if you can see against, you know, the development of Milan with a disease. And

these vaccine have also shown efficacy, towered protection against the development of severe disease that eventually leads to hospitalization and death. And

more vaccines do have actually shown efficacy towered

the prevention of development of the severe disease that leads to hospitalization and Death to the to answer the question in a simpler way, yes, the vaccine has to for being efficacious against the development of severe disease, some of them have not shown efficacy against like the development of mild to moderate disease. But again, what do we keep? The ultimate goal of the vaccine is to prevent the development of these severe cases that we see right now in the death that is losing.

I hope I've answered that question. And now to move to mowlana question regarding the differences between the Astra Zeneca vaccine, which is the one that was first planned for rolled out and that has since then been shelved. And in the Johnson and Johnson, and the Pfizer vaccine that we are now getting, and I understand that for the Johnson and Johnson the rollout is happening tomorrow, the healthcare workers are going to do to start getting the job as Home Depot soon. So we go to defenses. The Johnson and Johnson and AstraZeneca vaccine are actually very similar. They are similar in the type of system that they use, which is the identifiable specter that carries that

piece of genetic material to then

teach your body to make these proteins and to develop immunity against the proteins and eventually the virus when we do encounter them. And

also the target that the vaccine is actually using which is the envelope the spike of the of the virus, right. The only difference between the Johnson and Johnson vaccine and the vaccine is that for the assassin Yuka vaccine, the virus that has been used as the victor as the carrier as the transporter for that piece of information into our cell comes from a chimpanzee. We are the vaccine survivors use for the Johnson and Johnson vaccine is one that has been isolated from human. So the one is a virus that we know is commonly found in chimpanzee and the one that is using

Johnson and Johnson is one that is commonly found in human. And at the end of the day, there have been studies that have evaluated the defense in terms of the immune response in terms of the toxicity in terms of the safety for both of these vectors on their own, and there has been no defense. And the short answer is the booth safe and the booth work and do the job that we want them to do. Alright.

So that's the only difference between the Johnson and Johnson and AstraZeneca vaccine that I'm talking about the Constitution now, we'll go to the doozy of that. Now, for the for the Pfizer, the Pfizer is a more modern system of vaccine that is being put in use right now. So basically, for the Johnson and Johnson in the US has unique a vaccine, we knew that the use of virus to carry the piece of information into ourselves.

And these further needs to go inside our nucleus to be able to be expressed and produce the protein. But what the mo any system does is instead of using that vehicle, that that capture of the virus to get inside the cells to do tu tu tu tu tu, tu train the cell to make the protein that will elicit and that will make the immune that I suppose that we desire out of a vaccine, the the genetic material and information in the Pfizer vaccine is actually put inside a purple of oil, which is what we call a lipid membrane. And the reason why they use this is because our cells, each and every single one of our cell has that same outer coating of our VPS of phospholipids. So when we use that

system to carry something into the cell, you can understand that because they are like, it presents an easier way of transferring everything that we want into the cell. So this is one thing that has already been shown that the efficacy of the transfer of this material inside out using the new system is better than the standard than the one where we're using a virus, right. And on top of that, the the moment it enters the cell is the moment our cell stops producing these protein these spikes of the violence that we need to cruise the experts that we are asking and coding for, to develop immunity. So in a sense, the ammonia vaccine from Pfizer is one that produces the immune

response that we want Forster, it is a system that is a little bit easier to manufacture even the only problem that we have with this vaccine is that because it's using an M or any

system. This is not as stable as the DNA that we use in the Johnson and Johnson and as inika vaccine. This means that we need very cool temperature up to minus 70 to 80 degrees to stall the vaccine before it's actually administered into people. But at the end of the day, the the target and the end goal of each of these different vaccine remains the same, it's to elicit a response to the envelope of the virus, and to give our immune system a picture of what the virus looks like. So that when we do encounter the virus, it's already aware of the impact that the virus can have. And it will kick into gear and and send out the soldiers that are the boost completed to fight the virus.

She's alchemilla Hara and so yes, this is what happens. You asked for scientists and you get science talk hamdulillah. And we appreciate that because we we really need to get in our facts straight especially now this is really important for all of us. I do want to note all the questions of the viewers the opposite a few questions, some really good questions that have come through and we will try our utmost to get to as many of them as possible. So I'm going to ask our panelists while we don't want to rush you. We also want to keep the answers are nice and brief. inshallah, at the Salomon was still on mute at the moment. The next question is for yourself. What was the experience

like in the rest of the world so far with regard to the COVID vaccines? Now before you answer that

I find it very sort of reassuring that, you know, in way that the vaccine rolled out that, you know, we could see it performing in other countries, especially the more affluent Western countries, because I think there were, there were many sentiments going around about how this is going to be for the population. And it's going to be to, to get, you know, to kilo of plants on and as ridiculous as that may may sound, at least we will see it with him first. So that is what is the experience like of the rest of the world Bismillah.

Let's look at the way the current role of this is going on at quite a rapid pace. 52 million doses of it has been used in the United States so far. So but there's not a lot of a lot of science coming back yet, because it's it's a, you know, it's a progress in motion at the moment. But what we do have is of all countries, Israel has got very good data at the moment. It's one of the countries which has vaccinated a significant percentage of the elderly population. And the figures that we see coming out of, of Israel is actually quite reassuring as far as the vaccine is concerned. And if we're going to be depopulating, any country, it seems that Israel is going to be the first one

because they are rapidly moving to,

to vaccinating most of the adults in that country. But the figures are the figures are staggering. They've looked at about half a million people were vaccinated, that is a big number have been Shamim was earlier, referring to sample size you can't get bigger than sample size apart are familiar that you could refer back to, and to show that the vaccine is 93% effective. And all that half a million sexy 520,000 cases that were vaccinated, none of them died. And they were followed up for a few weeks, and there was only about I think about four hospitalizations. That is a staggering figure, if you can see of about 93%. And if you look at the number of people who've been vaccinated in Israel,

at the moment out of a million times the population is about 9 million. They vaccinated close to 3 million already. So they've got good data coming out. And another good study that they did, this is an observational study. In other words, they vaccinate people, and they follow them up for for a few weeks. So and obviously they're going to Manson so forth. And they looked at the last month, ending it about the second week of February, and there was about 1500 deaths due to COVID-19. And all those 90, only about 1% of the people who are vaccinated, passed away due to COVID-19. All the others did not receive the vaccine. So that clearly shows that the vaccine is efficacious. And this, again,

shows that the disease pattern is early shifting. We all know that in previous in other countries throughout the world, even in Israel. Initially it was the elderly people hospitalized it was the older people got more severe disease. But now because they're vaccinated, who do we see hospitalized in those countries, the younger ones not having been not having been vaccinated. So the pattern is changing because the vulnerable population is now the is now the younger ones are getting less numbers sick. But because they it's a big cut, because 9 million people they are seeing the younger people being hospitalized. And the ratio we previously most of those in hospital were over the age

of 50. Now more than 50% in hospital are under the age of 40 or 50 years old at the moment, clearly showing the benefits in a country such as Israel. Now, we spoke about this briefly before, but it's an important point because it keeps getting brought up. We did have we saw a report about 30 or so deaths in I think it was no way are we after receiving the vaccine people died. And of course, for many people around the world, this is like alarm bells ringing. Can you tell us what was the what's the update on this was this as a result of getting vaccinated? Okay, they 23 elderly people in old age homes passed away Norway, and this was after they received the vaccines. But remember, people in

old age homes are passing away on a daily basis. So when they looked at the overall number of gates and this is from the World Health Organization as well, as you know with the Norwegian health authorities, we looked at the total number of deaths of elderly people in old age homes. The percentage of those who passed away who had the COVID nine in vaccine was similar to the overall picture. In other words, if 1% of old age residents passed away per month, those who are vaccinated, the number of

who passed away from it was 1%. And in the overall scheme of things, those who are not vaccinated, the overall number of this was also 1%. I'm using a thumbsucker percentage, but the figures were the same whatever they were.

And since you know, this is we've managed to complete in the

newspaper. But you see people that very few reported two days later when these statistics came out about the fact that it was not beer beyond the normal limits of people dying in all day jobs.

Okay, she grant for that Dr. Salim. Dr. Das name this one is for you again. vaccines have been around for many decades, right and many of us have taken vaccines we say natural to get vaccines, especially our children, infants and so on, or perhaps when we when we travel. Right. So why don't any of these vaccines help against the Coronavirus?

Okay.

Viruses are vastly different in and of themselves. Like for example, just as I illustrated earlier, the influenza virus is very different from the SAS Coronavirus. And as we've seen, even in this pandemic, the first variant versus the second variant is quite different than we've seen a difference in vaccine efficacy and efficiency between these two variants for example, so

there is no one size fits all solution. In fact, when SARS of the 22,002 outbreak occurred, or it came out, people suddenly stopped took notice of Coronavirus and then there was a lot of research and funding put into a Coronavirus and then suddenly disappeared because of good quarantine measures at that point. So they were like 1000 cases worldwide and only 10% of deaths approximately in the space of under a year or approximately a year if I'm not mistaken. I stand to be corrected on that. But what I'm what I'm getting at it was a relatively short period of time, it was nowhere near what we are seeing with this pandemic. However, viruses are vastly different. measles, for example, has a

completely different genetic makeup to for example, the Coronavirus or influenza or anything else. And

so basically the every new virus that comes out is basically a new target even now with with the with the SAS Coronavirus, two that's around in this pandemic. We don't know what's coming next. We don't know how the virus is going to mutate next, and we have absolutely no way of knowing. It doesn't mean that scientists are not doing their jobs. It means that this is literally a moving target. So

yes, people have revisited old vaccines and at the time when SARS Coronavirus of the 2002 pen epidemic at that time, it wasn't the pandemic, when that was when that occurred.

There was some efforts at vaccine development that were made then but they quickly died down because of at that time, it wasn't widely spread enough and it didn't make financial sense to put so much more effort and research and resources into a virus that didn't look like it was coming back for a long time. It's been like more than a decade and then it resurfaced in a different form. It's closely related but not exactly the same. That's why the name SAS Coronavirus, two and not one because it's it is very it's significantly different to the first one.

Also people have looked at

science scientists have also looked at when MERS Coronavirus came out the middle eastern Respiratory Syndrome coronavirus in 2012

that was when people suddenly got a jaws because it was causing deaths and although they had maybe I should just clarify this seven known human Coronavirus is at the stage Coronavirus is also infect other species for example bats, bats have a huge a multitude of Coronavirus that they carry. It was a very interesting point of my research during our during my postdoctoral fellowship at Stellenbosch University. However, we moved along to the human coronaviruses when this came along, but sorry to digress but just to just to reiterate that there's a lot of Coronavirus out there and the human Coronavirus is a seven for which cause mild disease. I've had a laboratory confirmed infection of

one of the milder ones many years ago and it didn't cause anything more than a runny nose. And many people have had it also this was proven by serology. Like among students, there was a brief small study done for someone's student project in which they took blood from

several university students and the they looked for previous exposure of this of this infection and there were many of them who had it if not all,

this was one of the milder ones. However,

we

And when this when a mas Coronavirus came out. People suddenly started to think maybe we should look at a one size fits all solution for Coronavirus does and that means we should look at what we call a conserved region, which means a genetic piece a piece of the genome of the virus that is the same in all coronaviruses. So efforts have been made at looking at targets that are g gene targets as in for vaccines that are conserved among Coronavirus groups. However, that hasn't been met with a lot of success, because obviously, the viruses are so vastly different. And if and now, because it's a pandemic, we need to make concerted effort at at hone in on this particular target, even if

she can so much. Yes, it seems like this is really a lot of information. Yeah. And so many more questions, get through a doctor Shamim. You know, we've discovered that the acidogenic vaccine was not going to be effective on the South African variant, and excuse me, if I'm not using the correct terminology here. But I can't be held to toss because I don't have the qualifications you have?

What's going to happen? Should they be further mutation down the road? What's going to happen to the efficacy of the vaccines that we currently have? How is this going to be impacted?

Alright, so first, I want to describe, very briefly why why this affects vaccine efficacy.

While the virus is mutating, or what is cruising is a change in the way it looks like. And the way we use vaccine is to teach the immune response, the immune system, what the virus looks like, and how to fight it when we do encounter it. So you can imagine while the virus is changing, it's basically disguising itself, and the movie allowed to replicate in. And the reason why this happens is because more people get infected, the greater the risk that it will develop mutation that will attend to it what we call a feat, we call that a fitness, in, in biology and in science, which means that it makes the vials a little bit better in the wheat works in the winter decades in the weeds

transmitted, not necessarily in the way it causes disease. So while this happens, the vaccine is not going to work anymore, because we were using that vaccine, we are training the immune system to recognize what the virus look like before, right. So what it essentially means is that, as tasnim, put it, and as sadeem, put it, like a numerous time before, the target is always moving, which is why we need to act force, the motive is changes the mood, the likelihood that we actually need to change vaccine to be able to do to keep 32, we've, we've we've dysbiosis until we eventually manage to eradicate it in height. Now, as of yesterday, there is a new effort that is that has been

started, we, instead of using the envelope of the virus as one of the target, if not the only target of all the vaccines that have been created right now, scientists have tried a combination of the envelope, and what we call the nucleocapsid. The nucleocapsid is basically like a a sphere inside the virus that contains

the genetic material of the virus. So if we if we manage to develop and train the immune system to develop it, I suppose to not need an envelope that is changing constantly. But if we can

teach the immune system, what something like the nucleocapsid, that doesn't change as much as the angry loop, if we teach that immune system to, to knew what that nucleocapsid looks like, and how to fight it, there could possibly be increased efficacy over a longer period, in the sense that even if the virus is changing, it's not changing in that place. That is a weakness for in terms of the vaccine usage now. So that's one way of attacking it. The other way is to use the seasonal flu

vaccine exemple where we will get to a situation where we will have to collect

some of the most prevailing view of the of the actual viable source code to hide now the world, one in the UK, one in South Africa, one in Latin America, one in Asia. We put that in one vaccine, and we train our immune system to recognize what all of them look like.

So that if we do encounter any one of them, our immune system has a compartment or like, you know, a special army to fight against each one of these vials. And I think this is probably where we're heading right now. As long as we have mutation in the BIOS.

Okay, jack Walker and I think we need to just break from a regular shedule Dr. Salim if you will be vanilla, I would like to just address some of the comments from the from the community and from the viewers and listenership inshallah Tada, Dr. Salim, you are unmuted the moment. So while I get to those questions.

Miss Miller, why is the no vaccine for TB HIV is, you know, those are major diseases in South Africa. Are they not important?

I think Dr. Shami will be able to answer that. But basically, it's a contest between the human being what we know and also how the virus adapts to it. And I classically, like using a malaria as an example.

Half a million children, Africa the basis is, so the parasite is able to adapt. For example, we used to use chloroquine, which was used in initially the treatment of COVID-19 in Africa, and it was very, very effective in, in actually curing people who had malaria, but the parasite develop resistance to it. And similarly, the vector did we use other medications, which currently are quite effective, but there are areas in the world where the, for example, in Southeast Asia where even the most potent anti malarial drug to treat is the parasite is developing resistance to it. So as far as HIV is concerned, but it has been developed, this seems the ability of the virus to be to adapt to

it and to escape the immune boosting mechanisms that we're using in the, in the vaccine itself. Having said that, unfortunately, compete to fix for COVID-19 with so much money was poured in all the best resources we used to develop these vaccines. This this, as soon as they say, a good development in any of the subjects.

There's not a lot of interest, by big pharmaceutical companies, by big

by by Western countries, for example, to pour more money into the because it's not really to the benefit. And then the interest comes and it wanes, and by the time the the the some promising the for example, the TB vaccine, so much so the bacteria in that case has developed some resistance to that and the whole process has to start again. So if you really want to get good,

a good vaccine against TB, or against HIV, pour money into Dr. Shamim units because they are doing groundbreaking research but unfortunately, it doesn't always.

It doesn't always it's not knowing enough to what they need. And the same applies to tasneem se unit as well.

Okay, she clan, Dr. Salim Dr. Shamim is a question and this one one frequently showed actually there are many ladies who have concerns about recommend, you know, please feeding pregnant women as well as for for parents who still want to conceive in future or the implications of side effects that we that we know of acetic acid the vaccines Bismillah?

Yes, so basically, when we were doing the tire, which was a piece to tire of the Nova box vaccine, and has any cow food vaccine, one of the exclusion criteria was being pregnant or actually planning to be pregnant over the course of the study, which was our year.

And right now, to be honest with you, I am not clinically trained. I do nothing new for all of the different specific vaccine, whether they are recommended or not for women who are pregnant or who are planning to continue to get pregnant or breastfeeding. But as I understand it, the first batch of the vaccine that will be rolled out in South Africa and in a lot of different tissues for that matter, will first be hauled out in the healthcare workers. So while we wait for more data along the lines of safety, for women who are pregnant or who are planning to get pregnant or breastfeeding come out, we will be using the group of vaccinees as I said earlier, is a really good unit.

Like a life size, example of the safety profile for the vaccine, and even the efficacy when we look at the global statistics on all these, but I knew they are a little concerned about the safety and the side effects of the vaccine. And, and you know, the ease count for this, because if the vaccine comes with side effects, and when we talk about side effects, it's, it's mostly minors, these are most side effects that will result within like a few days. And I want to put it into context, right? When people talk about safety, for usual medication like aspirin, one to 2% of people in the population will develop allergies to aspirin, that doesn't mean that we need to take aspirin off the

shelf, because it's still helping like a significant proportion of people around the world liberty, simple finishing on 10% of people will be allergic to penicillin. So these are things that we need to keep in mind when we assess the you know, the type of risk that are involved. But then again, to answer your question molana

we need to we need to look at the manufacturer's recommendations for these. And this will be defined from vaccine to vaccine as more data comes out, as somebody actually said, and I didn't manage to check if it's true, but they said one of the listed side effects for binotto is possible death, I didn't actually see if that's true or not. But I think the point that they were trying to make is that you hardly find a modern medicine, except that they are a plethora of side effects, that one needs to be cautious of news. That is something that needs to be put into context at all times. So she can feel that Dr. Shamim is tasneem, who is currently on mute, if I can just let me see if I can

unmute you in a second. Okay. There is this notion, I see somebody doing it here as well, saying that you know what the candidate for

the recovery date for COVID is like 90%, somebody else's, like 97%? I don't know the exact statistics. Why the need for the vaccine? I personally don't like that kind of kind of undermining the value of human life. But Bismillah. Let's, let's hear what you what are your thoughts on this? Actually, I think it's a very valid question, because that's one of the things that there's one of the criteria that big pharma will use to assess whether it's really worth producing a vaccine for because if people are going to recover from it and have lifelong immunity, is it does it really makes financial sense. So it really is a valid question.

So with the Zika virus, if I can use that, as an example came out

a couple of years ago, there was the same argument like is it really worth it, because people develop immunity to towards it and, and it only affects a certain population, and it will only like in males, it causes nothing, even if it doesn't, it only really causes severe disease in women who are pregnant. So if we only going to make that vaccine to vet to vaccinate such a small population, does it make sense for the resources for the scientists for the time and we're going to put into it, basically. So those things do play a role in what, what becomes? Okay, or how far vaccine will will take to be developed? So if 90% of the population recovers, I'm not really sure why that statistic

is actually correct.

I think we, like I said, because it's a moving target. We don't know what we're expecting. Next. We don't know what kind of mutation. And the thing is, how many waves are we going to go through before we can figure this out? And this is a pandemic, it's like nothing we've ever seen if it was, if it was localized to a particular geographical area, like one country or one region. Other interventive measures would work, for example, strip quarantining, but in this case, because it's so widespread, it is not working. So though, we can't look at the vaccination in a vaccine in isolation, saying that this is the percentage So does it make sense of x vaccination is only one aspect of being able

to eradicate or control the disease, but obviously, mask rearing? Have we ever seen this level of masturbating in the history of humankind? Or like, so basically, I don't think this getting this any getting away from us needing to be vaccinated or developing immunity. Let me go with that term, developing immunity by whatever means whether it's an exposure, whether it's a vaccine, the question we really need to ask in this case is how many waves do we want to see how long do we want to spend indoors? How long do we want our lives to be disrupted for and that should help us answer whether we want to take a vaccine or not, because without proper vaccination or some kind of intervention of

measure or

Like a miracle antiviral drug, which I don't see on the horizon anytime soon, we are going to see multiple waves. That's just how a disease progression will actually keep going. So yes, it's not just about death, it's also about all the other disruptions that go on in life when when a

when even if only 10% of the population is dying be recovered but look at the devastating effect that it has schools have to be closed, businesses have to be closed. There's like people are developing actual psychological issues from having to be indoors and this is no way to live.

To have lost the business the jobs the salaries, families, again, hungry people are committing suicide. The list just goes on and again, like I did before, the loss of one human life that could have been spayed is one life too many

doctor Shamim I think this one is probably best suited for yourself

the genetic part of the spiders there is a claim that it could be carried over and modify the human gene. Can hon Dr. Please explain how this is understood? or other is wrong or something? Yes. Is it wrong? Dr. Shamim?

Yeah, so this is something that is causing a lot of people that, you know, we're using a piece of genetic information that we are inserting into you, and that will change your genome.

You know, the, not only you put, like any generation that comes like, you know, like you, porcine and, and so forth. And it's completely false. It's completely true, because if you understand the basic,

the basic science of molecular cellular biology, the different processes that that myself and Dr. tasneem, we learn, you know, in high school in, in undergraduate courses, we knew that, what we using those not clues, anything, as certain people are describing, simply because there are a lot of safety nets, that are actually put into the design of the vaccine, for example, what a lot of people don't know is that there is a special program that is inserted in this genetic code that we're using now to produce the envelope inside the body that causes it to actually go to this cause of the of the of the sometimes that's what it is. And these are all functions that we knew, from the normal

machinery and the normal processes that happen in itself. Because, you know, if, if, if, if, if you throw an apple in the year, it's going to fall down, because that's the law of gravity. And basically, the safety that goes in the understanding that goes into how that piece of genetic material that we using the vaccine, introducing, introducing this into a human and making sure that it stays safe, and that he doesn't lose any form of genetic impact is hallgren. And I have absolutely no doubt about that. Simply based on the week work and the safety net or the across the board as I told you, it's something that is not long leave, if you look for it inside the body a few

weeks after vaccination is completely gone. And for most vaccine, any trace of that of that genetic material is actually going within within days and not week. Okay, she can so much Dr. Shamim unfortunately our time is now completely expired. We are going to have to cut the program. And this is not because we don't want to give you the service. It's simply because we also on the radiowaves 91.32 sister Fatima Isaacs, I did say that I'm not sure I heard from somebody. So I'm not propagating fake news. I was just simply narrating something and I said all litigations always simplifications have side effects. I didn't say that it's confirmed that Bernardo causes death

especially I didn't use the word normal dosage. So I'm sorry if you misunderstood the shukran doctors for the clarity there are other questions that I would send to you that we've received from the viewers as well and hopefully we can have some sort of a follow up on that Doc manoharan for availing ourselves in a you are very busy daily basis spoke to Dr. tasneem. Today while she was in a lab with Oliver protective clothing lines for heinola Dr. Salim pocket if you want and all the listeners of the cape bow view on the various platforms she's Aquila hi Ron, for joining us now dedicated me we say thank you to our broadcast partner, radio voice of the cape for sharing this

with us and to all of you for taking the time out. To get this information please do share it we will be available on various podcasting platforms as well including Spotify, Google, Google podcasts, Apple podcasts, etc.

Until next Mazel Allahu ala Sayidina Muhammad Danilo young de Subhana Colombo Dominika Chateau La ilaha illa Anta Nestor Asuka wanted to be like a cinema camera to lay over a kettle

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