Ingrid Mattson – The Ethical Maturation of the American Muslim Community After 911

Ingrid Mattson
AI: Summary ©
The speakers discuss the importance of individual and community responsibilities in achieving collective obligations and the need for a community of faith and a strong sense of community. They emphasize the importance of the Quran's goal of an ethical, egal never social order and the success of the American Muslim community in addressing issues such as poverty and lack of fairness. The speakers also discuss the importance of studying priorities and understanding public interests to determine which priorities are essential and important. The community's actions, including sending students to Saudi Arabia and Iran, and their support for civil rights groups led to a more positive reaction to the crisis, and the speakers share two examples of positive developments, including the importance of the common word movement and the importance of gay pride and gay pride in political and political communities.
AI: Transcript ©
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Good afternoon.

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Good afternoon. Timur and I didn't even consult

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in it. It's almost as if you were

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just setting up for me. So that was

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perfect.

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It's been already a full day. I don't

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know about the rest of you. I had

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a wonderful opportunity to be at, Saint John's

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Episcopal Church.

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Reverend Joseph Pace is here. He kindly invited

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me

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to, say a few words to the congregation.

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I spoke. I I cried, so I've gotten

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everything out of my system already.

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But I also just, I I really want

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to thank I I look around, I see

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many of you who I've

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interacted with in churches and synagogues and other

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places, and just use this occasion to say

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once more, thank you so much, you know,

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for your hospitality and kindness and love and

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generosity

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that has been so present in the interfaith

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community

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the last 10 years. And, it was great

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to hear mention of some of my favorite

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people. Rich Sizek, the head of the new

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evangelical partnership for the common good is one

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of my favorite American,

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I almost said Wilson,

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American religious leaders.

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Fantastic person, and if you wanna know more

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about about the best in the evangelical community,

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that that man is just,

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is just my hero.

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So briefly and and after me, you have

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a break, 15 minute break before we, get

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to hear from Bruce Lawrence.

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I I wanted to talk a little bit

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about, what I call the ethical maturation of

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the Muslim American community after 9 11.

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And when I'm speaking about ethics, I'm not

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speaking about,

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individual morality or good character, which has always

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been the foundation of the religious formation of

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Muslims wherever they are and is universal.

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Be honest, fulfill your covenants, be good to

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neighbors, be generous to the poor,

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be faithful to your family.

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What I am interested in observing is the

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way in which the American Muslim community or

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communities,

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those who identify themselves as such as religious

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people who come together to live their faith

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and fulfill their collective obligations,

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how they are,

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ethical approach to these obligations

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has matured

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over the last 10 years.

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And what do I mean by collective obligations?

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In Islamic law, there is a fundamental,

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distinction

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between between 2 types of obligations,

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an individual obligation,

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fardaim,

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and a collective or community obligation, a fard

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kafaya.

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So for example,

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it is my individual obligation as a parent

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to make sure that my children

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are fed,

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have proper medical treatment,

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and are well educated.

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That's my individual

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obligation,

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and I can't

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I can't,

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you know, just neglect that and expect someone

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else to to do it. If I do

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not fulfill that obligation

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of care and nurturing,

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then I will be sinful.

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But I also

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am part of a community that collectively has

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an obligation to make sure that all children,

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all children are fed

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and are cared for and are educated and

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are nurtured.

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All children,

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Some children are orphans. Some children have parents

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who can't take care of them. And, yes,

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some parents some children have parents who are

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negligent,

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but it is not the fault of the

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children

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that their parents are negligent.

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If any child,

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if any child in my community

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does not have his or her basic fundamental

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essential needs fulfilled

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and I'm not part of working with my

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community in some form to ensure

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that that situation is alleviated,

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then we all bear collectively the burden of

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sin.

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All of us. It doesn't matter how good

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I am to my own kids or even

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if I extend a hand to the neighbor

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kids.

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But if I'm not part

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making sure that my community has some kind

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of mechanism

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to look after those needs,

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then

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I individually

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also bear the burden of sin.

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It's a very profound and awesome duty with

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when we think of all of the people

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that are in our communities.

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And we think of,

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the constant chain of events of people's lives

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and people falling in and out of need.

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Now the Quran emphasizes the necessity of the

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Muslim community working together to do good in

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so many places. In

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in Surah 3 Adi Imran,

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God says you are the best community that

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has been brought forth for the good of

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humanity.

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You enjoin what is right and forbid what

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is wrong, and you believe in God.

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This is a responsibility of men and women

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together.

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The Quran in Surah Nai Atawba

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says, the believing men and the believing women

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are partners with one another.

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They enjoin the right and forbid the wrong.

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They establish prayer and give charity,

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and they obey God and his messenger.

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Now this morning, Bruce Lawrence and I were

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speaking about the enduring legacy of the late

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Fazir Rahman and his marvelous book, major themes

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of the Quran.

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In that book, Fazir Rahman devotes a whole

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chapter to man in society, where he explores

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the importance of collective responsibilities

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in the Quran.

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You know, there's I think there's 6 or

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maybe 7 chapters in that book,

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and it is such an important theme in

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the Quran that it takes us up a

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significant

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part of of the discussion

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of the themes of the Quran, and I

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think rightly so.

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Fazir Haman says, for example, the Quran's goal

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of an ethical, egalitarian,

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social order is announced with a severe denunciation

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of the economic disequilibrium

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and social inequalities prevalent in contemporary commercial American

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society.

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I think of among all all of the

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diversity

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among Muslims globally,

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this belief that the Quran, fundamental message of

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the Quran, Quran, fundamental message of Islam

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is about justice,

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equality,

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fairness.

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But what, you know, as as Timur suggested,

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what does a just social, political, and economic

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order look like?

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And who should decide

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what it looks like?

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Now, when we look at the diversity

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of Muslim Americans, if we just look back

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at the late 19 sixties,

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early seventies, for example,

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for those immigrants from the Middle East

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who came to America in that time, escaping

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the oppressive

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socialist nationalisms of their homeland,

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the Ba'ath party of Arab under Saddam Hussein,

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or the Ba'ath party socialist nationalist party in

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Syria

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under Hafez al Assad,

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For them, a free economy

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was a big part of the justice they

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were seeking in coming to America. And the

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portrait of the prophet Mohammed and his wife

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Khadija as entrepreneurs,

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as active in the marketplace, as traders,

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was an especially attractive model for

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how they could be

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Muslim in a free America.

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And it's one of the reasons why many

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immigrants from the Middle East

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tended to favor the Republican Party

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because of the, economic policies

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towards oriented what they felt towards freedom in

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the Republican Party.

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That inclination,

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however, as we approach the eighties started to

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be leveraged by some smart people in the

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Republican Party to also appeal to Muslim Americans

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and say, well,

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when the whole

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family values issue came up, they said, look,

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you have the same values as we do.

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Shouldn't we want to put in place legislation

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that bans all of this immoral behavior?

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And it was interesting to see some Muslim

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Americans

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starting to be

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moving in that direction.

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Now on the other hand, at the same

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time, a large segment of the Muslim American

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population was African American.

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And for them,

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Islam's teachings about racial equality

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was the Prophet's companion Bilal as the role

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model. And the Quranic teachings on taking care

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of the poor and needy were compelling messages.

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And they were very alarmed

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by the immigrant Muslims' orientation

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towards,

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conservative

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politics and the Republican Party,

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by and large. And of course there are

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African American Muslims who who were Republicans as

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well, but by and large the vast majority

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then until now

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were oriented towards liberal or progressive politics.

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And what they said is,

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what are you talking about? This isn't Islam

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is about justice, and they're not speaking about

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justice.

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But we had 2 groups who were talking

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about things like freedom and justice, 2 groups

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within the Muslim community in America. And as

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Timur said,

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it was a word. It was in a

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way an unexamined word.

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And the the,

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disadvantage of the African American community is that

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they didn't have

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the technical language

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to speak about this issue.

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Their Imams

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did not have the formal religious training, the

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formal training in Islamic law and ethics to

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be able to articulate their concerns about justice

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in a way that was compelling

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to the immigrant Muslims.

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And it got to the point where in

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the year 2000,

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mostly

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Muslim Americans from an immigrant background or first

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generation

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formed a block vote to vote for George

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Bush

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because he promised to abolish

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abolish certain,

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restrictions

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that have been placed or certain,

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security,

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what was it called? I can't remember what

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that was called.

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It wasn't special registration. It was something else

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that it was in place before 2000

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that that similar to the Patriot Act allowed

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that special surveillance

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and detention

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of, people accused of, security concerns.

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Now

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George Bush didn't abolish those regulations.

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And after 2011,

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and we had, president Bush

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developing special registration,

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where the male members of our community between

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1665

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had to line up in front of immigration

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offices,

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and the sort of sweeping out of Queens,

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of,

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thousands and thousands of,

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Muslim immigrants

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on any kind of minor violation, just cleaned

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out whole neighborhoods that were empty, vibrant

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neighborhoods, mostly Pakistani

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and Indian.

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Then the Muslim community, the Muslim immigrant community

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started to look at

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politics,

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justice,

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what are our priorities differently.

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Beneath the accusation

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and recriminations

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between the two communities about

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not understanding

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politics,

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we had very little discussion about

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our priorities

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as a community and how do we identify

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the priorities.

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It was really this lack of a forum

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or even,

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thinking that it was in any way important

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to discuss priorities. Because in the end, certainly,

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there were important concerns that were voiced in

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each community. But how do we prioritize

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them?

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In Islamic,

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ethical or legal teachings,

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what we needed to do was was examine

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how important priorities are. And this is one

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discipline within Islamic Ethics is to study priorities.

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To understand the difference between a a a

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3 part priority system

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from the most important, essentials,

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then

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needs, and then compliments or ornaments or things

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that are that are are good. So how

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do we, you know, what is an essential?

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Who decides what's an essential?

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Maybe something that is essential in my neighborhood

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because it is completely

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missing, like a good education. A good public

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education

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is not the most important thing in your

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neighborhood or your life, but we're a community.

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So how do we discuss those things?

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These public goods, public interests that are known

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as Masaadi.

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So the tools of ethical reasoning, these terms

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that I'm referring to,

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were not widely available

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in the Muslim American community generally. Most of

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we talked about lawful and prohibited. Something allowed

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or not allowed? Can I eat this meat

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or not? Can I eat kosher meat or

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not? You know, it didn't get much beyond

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prohibited

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or permitted.

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And so getting more deeply into evaluating

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priorities,

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needs,

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public interest, common interest, is something that took

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a far greater stage

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after 9 11.

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But it's interesting because

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even before 9 11,

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African American leaders and especially Imam WD Mohammed,

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may God bless his soul,

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who was the leader of the largest

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African American Muslim community,

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identified this as important a long time ago.

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Because Imam Mohammed

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and his Imams, mostly inner city Imams,

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you know, knew a lot about justice and

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injustice in America,

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and about structural injustice,

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and the problems with,

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economic disparities and opportunities in America and lack

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of access to education and how significant that

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is.

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But when they spoke about it to the

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immigrant community,

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there was a certain deafness because as I

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as I mentioned,

00:14:23 --> 00:14:26

the language was not religiously compelling.

00:14:27 --> 00:14:29

And so, Imam Mohammed began sending

00:14:30 --> 00:14:32

members of his community

00:14:32 --> 00:14:35

overseas for training in the early nineties.

00:14:36 --> 00:14:38

His his early experiments were not very successful.

00:14:38 --> 00:14:39

Unfortunately,

00:14:39 --> 00:14:40

he the first place he tried to send

00:14:40 --> 00:14:42

them to was Saudi Arabia, and they came

00:14:42 --> 00:14:43

back,

00:14:46 --> 00:14:47

can I say flaming fundamentalist? Not very helpful

00:14:47 --> 00:14:50

to the community, so he realized that, you

00:14:50 --> 00:14:51

shouldn't send them there. But But then he

00:14:51 --> 00:14:54

started sending them to Syria, and that's really

00:14:54 --> 00:14:55

I mean, as bad as we know the

00:14:55 --> 00:14:57

Syrian regime is,

00:14:57 --> 00:14:58

the religious education

00:14:59 --> 00:15:00

is excellent in Syria,

00:15:01 --> 00:15:02

and they've they've maintained

00:15:02 --> 00:15:05

excellent seminaries. And so, once he started sending

00:15:05 --> 00:15:07

his students there, they started to get an

00:15:07 --> 00:15:08

excellent education.

00:15:09 --> 00:15:10

And someone like,

00:15:11 --> 00:15:14

Professor Intisar Rab, she's now a professor of

00:15:14 --> 00:15:15

law

00:15:15 --> 00:15:16

at,

00:15:16 --> 00:15:17

Boston University.

00:15:18 --> 00:15:19

She,

00:15:20 --> 00:15:22

went to Syria to study, then she went

00:15:22 --> 00:15:24

to Qom to Iran to also study Shiite

00:15:24 --> 00:15:25

jurisprudence.

00:15:26 --> 00:15:27

And I think it's very significant.

00:15:28 --> 00:15:30

Intisada was a brilliant woman she studied. She

00:15:30 --> 00:15:32

got her degree at Princeton and then Yale.

00:15:33 --> 00:15:35

And her brother is is the imam in

00:15:35 --> 00:15:38

the WD Mohammed community in the Baltimore area,

00:15:38 --> 00:15:41

imam Sofia Roq. And Dusab wrote her doctoral

00:15:41 --> 00:15:42

dissertation

00:15:42 --> 00:15:43

on

00:15:43 --> 00:15:44

on,

00:15:45 --> 00:15:45

the,

00:15:46 --> 00:15:46

Kauai'il,

00:15:47 --> 00:15:48

the,

00:15:49 --> 00:15:50

the principles

00:15:51 --> 00:15:53

of the Simon Jurisprudence

00:15:53 --> 00:15:55

that looks at things like

00:15:55 --> 00:15:59

like goals and priorities and how to think

00:16:00 --> 00:16:01

systematically

00:16:01 --> 00:16:04

and ethically about complex situations.

00:16:05 --> 00:16:07

And so now we have

00:16:07 --> 00:16:10

some people like her experts who were able

00:16:11 --> 00:16:13

to, on behalf of that community and the

00:16:13 --> 00:16:16

American Muslim community generally, bring a more sophisticated

00:16:17 --> 00:16:17

discourse.

00:16:20 --> 00:16:21

And, frankly, the immigrant,

00:16:22 --> 00:16:26

Muslims needed African American Muslims after 911 because

00:16:26 --> 00:16:26

suddenly,

00:16:27 --> 00:16:28

there was religious

00:16:29 --> 00:16:31

profiling. Well, if anyone knew something about profiling

00:16:31 --> 00:16:34

in America, it was African Americans. You know,

00:16:34 --> 00:16:36

how do you deal with with profiling?

00:16:38 --> 00:16:39

What is our response?

00:16:40 --> 00:16:43

And the African American community now became the

00:16:43 --> 00:16:46

teachers of the immigrant Muslim community and also

00:16:46 --> 00:16:47

were able to teach

00:16:47 --> 00:16:48

something else.

00:16:50 --> 00:16:53

But it's not only this this inner conversation

00:16:53 --> 00:16:56

that was accelerated, and it's a conversation that

00:16:56 --> 00:16:57

I think would have developed at any place,

00:16:57 --> 00:17:00

but the events of 9eleven and the reaction

00:17:00 --> 00:17:00

of the Bush administration and of many of

00:17:01 --> 00:17:02

the,

00:17:05 --> 00:17:07

regulations that were were put in place

00:17:07 --> 00:17:10

accelerated this conversation, made us mature

00:17:10 --> 00:17:11

more quickly.

00:17:13 --> 00:17:16

This conversation not only took place among Muslims,

00:17:16 --> 00:17:19

but also between or among Muslims and people

00:17:19 --> 00:17:20

of other faiths.

00:17:22 --> 00:17:24

Because the social justice issues we're talking about

00:17:24 --> 00:17:26

were not only concern

00:17:26 --> 00:17:28

of concern to us.

00:17:29 --> 00:17:31

And as I argued, you know, even as

00:17:31 --> 00:17:33

I argued previously in an article I wrote

00:17:33 --> 00:17:36

probably in in 2000 or earlier

00:17:37 --> 00:17:39

called, the Axis of Good.

00:17:39 --> 00:17:41

If we are to take seriously,

00:17:43 --> 00:17:43

those

00:17:43 --> 00:17:46

collective issues, if Muslim Americans are to take

00:17:47 --> 00:17:47

seriously

00:17:48 --> 00:17:50

the collective obligations that we have,

00:17:51 --> 00:17:53

our notion of who that community is that

00:17:53 --> 00:17:56

we belong to, who that community is that

00:17:56 --> 00:17:57

we need to work with to achieve the

00:17:57 --> 00:18:00

end needs to be expanded to include the

00:18:00 --> 00:18:01

broader community of faith.

00:18:02 --> 00:18:03

I mean, you know,

00:18:04 --> 00:18:07

no matter if every Muslim community in America

00:18:07 --> 00:18:08

set up a soup kitchen

00:18:10 --> 00:18:13

and served in it every, you know, every

00:18:13 --> 00:18:13

weekend,

00:18:14 --> 00:18:16

or if every Muslim community established a free

00:18:16 --> 00:18:18

clinic, a free health clinic, and there are

00:18:18 --> 00:18:19

many, many,

00:18:20 --> 00:18:23

Muslim established and run free health clinics in

00:18:23 --> 00:18:23

America,

00:18:24 --> 00:18:26

it still would not make a serious impact

00:18:26 --> 00:18:29

on the health care crisis or the hunger

00:18:29 --> 00:18:30

crisis in America.

00:18:31 --> 00:18:32

It's good to do

00:18:33 --> 00:18:36

and it's important to do, but without

00:18:36 --> 00:18:37

good policy

00:18:39 --> 00:18:41

that addresses the social inequities,

00:18:42 --> 00:18:44

you know, nothing's gonna happen. We're 2% of

00:18:44 --> 00:18:45

that of the population.

00:18:46 --> 00:18:48

Are we serious about addressing these issues

00:18:49 --> 00:18:51

if we don't work with other people? We're

00:18:51 --> 00:18:52

not serious. We're just

00:18:53 --> 00:18:55

pretending. We're just making a show of it.

00:18:56 --> 00:18:57

And so

00:18:58 --> 00:19:01

at the level of social justice,

00:19:01 --> 00:19:04

that was important even before 911, but after

00:19:04 --> 00:19:06

911, the political issues,

00:19:06 --> 00:19:07

freedom,

00:19:08 --> 00:19:09

surveillance,

00:19:10 --> 00:19:12

all of these things became so much more

00:19:12 --> 00:19:13

important.

00:19:14 --> 00:19:16

And the Muslim community felt very much under

00:19:16 --> 00:19:19

siege, but we benefited from the support and

00:19:19 --> 00:19:20

assistance,

00:19:20 --> 00:19:23

not only of people of other faiths, but

00:19:23 --> 00:19:25

of civil rights groups.

00:19:26 --> 00:19:27

The Quran says,

00:19:30 --> 00:19:33

Is the reward for for kindness

00:19:33 --> 00:19:34

anything other than kindness?

00:19:36 --> 00:19:37

This notion of reciprocity,

00:19:38 --> 00:19:40

that when someone does good to you, how

00:19:40 --> 00:19:42

can you do other than good towards them,

00:19:43 --> 00:19:45

is a foundational ethical principle

00:19:46 --> 00:19:48

in in in all ethical systems, and it's

00:19:48 --> 00:19:49

clearly

00:19:50 --> 00:19:52

affirmed by the Quran and the Prophetic teachings

00:19:52 --> 00:19:53

in many places.

00:19:54 --> 00:19:54

So

00:19:55 --> 00:19:56

let me just give you two examples of

00:19:56 --> 00:19:57

some interesting

00:19:58 --> 00:19:58

developments.

00:19:59 --> 00:20:01

Professor Ai, you mentioned the importance of the

00:20:01 --> 00:20:02

common word,

00:20:02 --> 00:20:03

Just a

00:20:04 --> 00:20:06

a very important document, and the whole movement,

00:20:06 --> 00:20:08

the common word movement

00:20:08 --> 00:20:10

that followed it. It is,

00:20:11 --> 00:20:13

has had such a great impact on Christian

00:20:13 --> 00:20:16

Muslim relations globally, and you can learn more

00:20:16 --> 00:20:18

about it by going to the website, acommonword.comororg.

00:20:22 --> 00:20:25

Out of that document, we had in 2008,

00:20:26 --> 00:20:28

the 1st Catholic Muslim Forum,

00:20:28 --> 00:20:30

in Rome. I was there,

00:20:31 --> 00:20:33

it was actually during the 2008 presidential election.

00:20:34 --> 00:20:37

And at the end of a very intense,

00:20:39 --> 00:20:40

5 day,

00:20:42 --> 00:20:43

discussions,

00:20:44 --> 00:20:46

presentation of papers, discussions between

00:20:47 --> 00:20:47

major Catholic,

00:20:48 --> 00:20:50

theologians and thinkers

00:20:50 --> 00:20:53

from the Pontifical Institute and globally,

00:20:53 --> 00:20:57

and representative Muslim leaders from Sunni and Shiite

00:20:57 --> 00:21:00

and a diverse approach both more conservative and

00:21:00 --> 00:21:01

more liberal,

00:21:01 --> 00:21:04

but really representative Muslim leaders.

00:21:05 --> 00:21:07

We agreed on a document. We signed the

00:21:07 --> 00:21:08

document in the end, and you can find

00:21:08 --> 00:21:10

it on the common word website,

00:21:10 --> 00:21:12

in which, and I believe this is the

00:21:12 --> 00:21:14

first time I don't know, professor, you may

00:21:14 --> 00:21:16

may correct me on this.

00:21:16 --> 00:21:18

But I believe it's the first time where

00:21:18 --> 00:21:21

there was this kind of Muslim leaders affirmed

00:21:21 --> 00:21:22

in a written document

00:21:24 --> 00:21:24

in,

00:21:24 --> 00:21:26

in such a large number

00:21:27 --> 00:21:28

support for

00:21:29 --> 00:21:32

absolute religious freedom, including the freedom to change

00:21:32 --> 00:21:32

your religion.

00:21:34 --> 00:21:34

And

00:21:35 --> 00:21:37

I believe that that came out

00:21:39 --> 00:21:40

of experiencing

00:21:40 --> 00:21:43

the kind of attacks on on Islam that

00:21:43 --> 00:21:44

Muslims felt in Europe

00:21:45 --> 00:21:47

and beyond, the attacks on religious freedom,

00:21:48 --> 00:21:50

and the and seeing the response and the

00:21:50 --> 00:21:51

defense

00:21:52 --> 00:21:54

of so many non Muslims Muslims for the

00:21:54 --> 00:21:56

freedom of of Muslims to practice and live

00:21:56 --> 00:21:57

their religion.

00:21:59 --> 00:22:01

And and the jurists affirm that there's a

00:22:01 --> 00:22:04

difference between that apostasy, the apostasy of the

00:22:04 --> 00:22:05

medieval

00:22:05 --> 00:22:06

period that was,

00:22:07 --> 00:22:10

conflated with treason, political treason, is no longer

00:22:10 --> 00:22:13

relevant. That religious freedom is an absolute and

00:22:13 --> 00:22:14

the prime and people should be free,

00:22:15 --> 00:22:16

to change their religion. I think that was

00:22:16 --> 00:22:19

a a really important outcome,

00:22:20 --> 00:22:22

or or it's a sign of the maturity

00:22:22 --> 00:22:23

of this community.

00:22:24 --> 00:22:24

The second

00:22:25 --> 00:22:28

is quite interesting is the example of homosexuality.

00:22:29 --> 00:22:31

One of the things that that Muslim students

00:22:31 --> 00:22:34

across campuses will tell you is that very

00:22:34 --> 00:22:35

often their most,

00:22:35 --> 00:22:36

you know,

00:22:38 --> 00:22:38

quick supporters

00:22:39 --> 00:22:40

were students from the,

00:22:42 --> 00:22:43

from the,

00:22:44 --> 00:22:47

the gay lesbian alliances or organizations on campus

00:22:48 --> 00:22:50

who also had experienced discrimination,

00:22:51 --> 00:22:52

you know, hate speech,

00:22:53 --> 00:22:55

just mean general meanness against them.

00:22:56 --> 00:22:56

And

00:22:57 --> 00:23:00

what happened is that, you know, Muslims looked

00:23:00 --> 00:23:02

at this and said, okay, what should our

00:23:02 --> 00:23:03

response be?

00:23:04 --> 00:23:05

Now there is a Pew study that was

00:23:05 --> 00:23:06

just published.

00:23:08 --> 00:23:10

A Pew study on American American Muslims. It

00:23:10 --> 00:23:13

was just published a few weeks ago, and

00:23:13 --> 00:23:14

it shows something quite interesting.

00:23:15 --> 00:23:17

The Muslim Americans were asked,

00:23:18 --> 00:23:19

and I hate these kind of questions. I

00:23:19 --> 00:23:21

feel like in a way, they they don't

00:23:21 --> 00:23:23

tell you almost anything.

00:23:24 --> 00:23:25

This is a question,

00:23:25 --> 00:23:26

should homosexuality

00:23:27 --> 00:23:29

be discouraged by society

00:23:30 --> 00:23:31

or should it be accepted?

00:23:32 --> 00:23:33

Now, I don't know what discourage means. I

00:23:33 --> 00:23:35

don't know society is. This is why I'm

00:23:35 --> 00:23:37

not a social scientist, and I almost never

00:23:37 --> 00:23:39

use these things. But the same question was

00:23:39 --> 00:23:40

asked in 2007.

00:23:41 --> 00:23:43

Okay. So at least as a,

00:23:43 --> 00:23:45

you know, if it's the same question asked

00:23:45 --> 00:23:47

4 years earlier, then maybe it can tell

00:23:47 --> 00:23:50

me something. Well, what's interesting is that

00:23:50 --> 00:23:51

in

00:23:51 --> 00:23:52

2007,

00:23:53 --> 00:23:55

61% of Muslim Americans said homosexuality

00:23:55 --> 00:23:57

should be discouraged by society.

00:23:58 --> 00:23:59

27%

00:24:00 --> 00:24:01

said it should be accepted.

00:24:02 --> 00:24:02

In 2011,

00:24:03 --> 00:24:04

only 4 years later,

00:24:05 --> 00:24:05

45

00:24:06 --> 00:24:08

percent of Muslim Americans said homosexuality

00:24:08 --> 00:24:09

should be discouraged by society,

00:24:10 --> 00:24:11

while 39%

00:24:11 --> 00:24:13

said it should be accepted.

00:24:13 --> 00:24:14

It went from 61

00:24:15 --> 00:24:17

percent down to 45%

00:24:18 --> 00:24:19

of discouragement

00:24:19 --> 00:24:21

in a period of 4 years,

00:24:21 --> 00:24:25

and acceptance went up from 27% to 39%,

00:24:25 --> 00:24:27

I think that's quite remarkable.

00:24:28 --> 00:24:28

Now

00:24:29 --> 00:24:30

I don't know what everyone meant when they

00:24:30 --> 00:24:32

answered that question, but I know from my

00:24:32 --> 00:24:34

engagement with,

00:24:34 --> 00:24:37

many Muslim American student groups is

00:24:37 --> 00:24:39

certainly the change was,

00:24:40 --> 00:24:42

and and we saw a number of Muslim

00:24:42 --> 00:24:44

student groups doing this, is joining

00:24:44 --> 00:24:46

anti hate and anti bullying campaigns.

00:24:47 --> 00:24:49

At least it meant it should not be

00:24:49 --> 00:24:51

allowed to say anything

00:24:51 --> 00:24:52

that would lead

00:24:53 --> 00:24:53

to,

00:24:54 --> 00:24:56

homosexual students being bullied,

00:24:58 --> 00:25:01

or hurt, or targeted in any way. And

00:25:01 --> 00:25:03

so this was a minimum,

00:25:04 --> 00:25:06

I think, ethical response

00:25:06 --> 00:25:08

in saying we don't want to be bullied.

00:25:08 --> 00:25:10

We don't wanna be the object of hate

00:25:10 --> 00:25:11

speech. They shouldn't as well.

00:25:12 --> 00:25:13

Now to what extent

00:25:14 --> 00:25:15

do did these respondents,

00:25:16 --> 00:25:17

accept homosexuality,

00:25:19 --> 00:25:20

as a as,

00:25:20 --> 00:25:22

moral rather than immoral?

00:25:23 --> 00:25:25

It is unclear by this.

00:25:26 --> 00:25:27

But I can say that there's also a

00:25:27 --> 00:25:30

very interesting discussion in the Muslim American community

00:25:30 --> 00:25:30

saying, well,

00:25:31 --> 00:25:33

we know that people there are many people

00:25:33 --> 00:25:34

who don't like,

00:25:34 --> 00:25:36

you know, who actually don't agree with it

00:25:36 --> 00:25:38

what Islam teaches on many issues even on

00:25:38 --> 00:25:39

family law.

00:25:40 --> 00:25:42

Yet they vigorously affirm our right

00:25:43 --> 00:25:44

to practice

00:25:44 --> 00:25:47

and live according to our own, you know,

00:25:47 --> 00:25:49

values in a place like America.

00:25:50 --> 00:25:51

Can I, as a Muslim,

00:25:52 --> 00:25:53

and I think this is where this where,

00:25:54 --> 00:25:56

you know, an example of how

00:25:56 --> 00:25:59

our ethical discourse is getting more sophisticated,

00:25:59 --> 00:26:01

would it be possible as a Muslim for

00:26:01 --> 00:26:03

me to maintain at least,

00:26:03 --> 00:26:05

even if I say that religiously, I think,

00:26:07 --> 00:26:09

any, you know, any sexual intimacy outside of

00:26:09 --> 00:26:12

marriage is impermissible, including homosexual, but they should

00:26:12 --> 00:26:14

be given their civil rights and equal civil

00:26:14 --> 00:26:17

rights and legal rights of anyone else, including

00:26:17 --> 00:26:19

the right to marry? And I'm hearing those

00:26:19 --> 00:26:20

kind of conversations,

00:26:21 --> 00:26:23

which shows that, you know, I'm not advocating

00:26:23 --> 00:26:25

for any one position or another, but what

00:26:25 --> 00:26:27

I'm saying is that this is a big

00:26:27 --> 00:26:28

change

00:26:28 --> 00:26:31

from the kind of get on board to

00:26:31 --> 00:26:34

the family values of the religious right in

00:26:34 --> 00:26:34

the 19 eighties,

00:26:35 --> 00:26:37

which was a kind of very superficial approach

00:26:37 --> 00:26:40

to politics and ethics and engagement.

00:26:40 --> 00:26:41

So I think that,

00:26:42 --> 00:26:44

you know, what has happened has helped us

00:26:44 --> 00:26:45

in many ways,

00:26:46 --> 00:26:48

has pushed us to think more deeply,

00:26:48 --> 00:26:49

and we're continuing

00:26:49 --> 00:26:53

in that, you know, in that that, process.

00:26:53 --> 00:26:54

It will be very interesting to see if

00:26:54 --> 00:26:56

I'm still alive 10 years from now

00:26:57 --> 00:26:58

where we are, but I think, you know,

00:26:58 --> 00:27:01

God willing, we'll continue to make some progress.

00:27:01 --> 00:27:04

I believe that I now can announce

00:27:04 --> 00:27:07

to you that we're having a 15 minute

00:27:07 --> 00:27:08

break. It is,

00:27:09 --> 00:27:11

12 or so to 3. So if you

00:27:11 --> 00:27:14

can start gathering back here a little bit

00:27:14 --> 00:27:16

after 3, we'd appreciate it. Thank you.

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