Ingrid Mattson – Reminders
AI: Summary ©
AI: Transcript ©
What does it mean to be Muslim in
America? We'll talk with the president of the
Islamic Society of North America who says American
Muslims in particular
have an enormous responsibility to live as exemplary
Muslims and to demythologize
Islam to the American public. Hello and welcome
to Penn State Public Broadcasting's
Common Ground Lobby Talk, which is produced in
collaboration
with Penn State's Institute For the Arts and
Humanities. I'm Patty Satalia.
This is an open forum and we invite
dialogue between our special guest and our live
audience. Let's begin with an introduction. Doctor Ingrid
Madsen is the first woman president of the
Islamic Society of North America, the post she
was elected to in August of 2,006.
Raised Catholic in Canada, she converted to Islam
at the end of her undergraduate studies, then
traveled to Pakistan where she worked with Afghan
refugees.
In 1999,
she earned her PhD in Islamic Studies from
the University of Chicago and is now director
of the Islamic Chaplaincy Program
and professor at the McDonald Center For Islamic
Studies and Christian Muslim Relations at the Hartford
Seminary in Connecticut. Thanks so much for joining
us. Thank you.
You converted,
from,
the Roman Catholic religion to Islam in your
senior year in college.
Converts are typically very passionate and something that
is very, very perplexing to many of us.
Why did you convert? How did you become
Muslim?
Well, I think it's important to say that
when I became a Muslim, when I encountered
Islam, at that point I was
an atheist or agnostic or maybe just simply
indifferent,
not someone who was interested in in religion
or even had God in my life in
any way. I had left the Catholic church,
left faith behind as a teenager
and, never really looked back.
So for me, when I encountered Islam,
and embraced it, it was the way for
me to bring God back into my life
and and I did so because of the
the power of the Quran and reading that
and and what it said to me about
my place
in this creation.
But you did describe yourself as a pious
child and and it was,
a trip to,
to Paris and then to Afghanistan to work
with, Afghan refugees
where something happened. What was it that enhanced
your vision of Islam?
Well,
I first met Muslims,
as far as I know, when I studied
in Paris one summer,
where I grew up in Canada, I don't
think I knew any Muslims or even heard
anything about Islam. So I was very fortunate
that the first Muslims I met were
students from West Africa, mostly from Senegal,
who were, just remarkable human beings, very dignified
in the midst of great prejudice that they
suffered in Parisian society.
I mean, very, overt prejudice and racism,
but they had a dignity and a generosity
of spirit,
that really impressed me. And that made me
want to know more about them and their
background.
Since then, I've realized that they come from
a
strong West African tradition of, Islamic Sufism, which
emphasizes
a kind of openness
to others and
the importance of living,
spiritually in everyday life.
And, they certainly did that and that really
opened my heart.
Interestingly
enough, there are actually 2 converts in your
family. You're one of 7, and you have
an older sister who converted to,
Judaism.
Tell us a little bit about that and
what the reaction was in your household to
this. Right. I guess,
my family really does have a bit of
a different experience than most, Canadian or American
families, although
as as our society changes and integrates, I
think this is becoming more common.
My sister is, significantly older than I am
and,
she met a Jewish man and fell in
love and, wanted to marry him. And for
the sake of the family and their future
children, decided that for her to embrace Judaism
would be the best thing.
I think that may be one of the
reasons why my family was a little bit
confused when I chose to become a Muslim
because it no man was involved.
It was,
my own choice,
as a spiritual choice
and that,
surprised them because I wasn't someone who seemed
to be looking for a religion, so it
kind of hit them out of the blue.
And not knowing any Muslims or anything about
Islam, they were concerned. They didn't know what
this would mean for my life, so it
took a little bit of time
for them to be able to be comfortable
with it, realizing that it was something that,
that I could live and and and have
a good life with.
Help us understand this. You have a doctorate
in Islamic Studies and the 2 largest religions
in the world, of course, are Christianity and
Islam, both of which have divided. The Roman
Catholic church broke into,
various denominations and,
Mohammed left no specific instructions about who should
take over,
and and lead the,
Islam.
And the result was that that split into
2 distinct groups, the Sunnis and the Shi'ites.
What's the difference between the two, and does
the Islamic Society of North America embrace both
groups? Right. Well, the major difference between Sunnis
and Shiites,
is a theological difference based on the idea
of succession to the prophet Muhammad, and specifically,
who is authorized
to,
interpret,
the Quran and and the,
Islamic principles authoritatively.
Shiites believe that that authority was passed down
to specific individuals in in the prophet's family,
Whereas, Sunnis believe that it's a collective responsibility
of the community
to struggle with these texts and precepts
and come up with, their,
their own conclusion.
The Islamic Society of North America is open
to all Muslims.
Demographically, we are a majority Sunni,
but, we have Shiite members and there's no,
there's no criteria
for sectarian,
exclusionary criteria for our organization. In fact, we
had a Shiite
president,
when in our first,
manifestation as a Muslim Students Association.
What's the relationship between the Islamic Society of
North America
and Middle Eastern Muslims?
The relationship is only one of,
emotional ties as
part of the global Muslim community,
but also,
we have developed,
primarily out of the experience of immigrant Muslims
who came
to study in the United States,
found themselves,
wanting to have some sense of community as
Muslims in a what to them was a
foreign land,
formed the Muslim, Students Association of Canada and
the United States,
thinking that eventually they would go back to
their homes. Some of them did, but many
stayed,
had families. Their children didn't wanna go back
to Egypt or Pakistan or wherever they came
from.
They realized that this was now their home.
And then, developed,
the Islamic Society of North America as the
next step, as the kind of fully adult
organization that would represent all Muslims.
And now, our membership includes,
primarily people who were born in this country,
whether they're from a, caucasian or African American,
community or second generation Muslims whose parents immigrated,
but they
themselves were born here. The organization itself was
established back in 1963, and today, you can
count some 20,000
people among, its members.
What's the purpose or the mission of the
Islamic Society of North America?
Our mission is to be
a a a common platform
for the diversity of Muslims in North America,
and that includes individuals and organizations and communities.
So, in fact, our, umbrella embraces even more
than those 20,000 individual members,
thousands more who are represented in the over
300,
mosques and Islamic centers that are affiliated with
our organization,
as well as professional organizations like the Islamic
Medical Association
that are part of our,
of our membership body.
Muslims in North America are highly diverse
in terms of their outlook,
background,
every in every,
aspect of demography that you could imagine.
And what we seek to do is
certainly provide guidance on some issues,
but more than that, to provide a common
platform for discussion, for dialogue,
to engage,
all the different aspects of this community so
that we can,
come to, if not agreement, at least come
to know each other
and and work for some common goals.
You were the vice president of the Islamic
Society of North America 5 years prior to
be, being elected in August of 2,006
as president.
Many people look at this as maybe the
starting point of something bigger that the significance
is not only that you're a woman a
woman, but also that you're a non immigrant.
What do you believe is the significance of
your appointment?
Well, certainly,
we're at the stage in our development as
Muslims in North America where our leadership
should reflect
who we are,
as a community.
And it's natural that that by now, this
organization should have someone who's a native English
speaker, for example. And this is not to,
in any way, belittle the, contributions of all
those who served ahead of me. They did
a wonderful job and and built up this
organization.
But like every other Muslim community in the
world,
we should be having institutions
and leadership that is,
homegrown
and that is really embedded and and relevant,
to the society. So that's what I see
as primarily important.
Certainly being a female is something that has
gotten a lot of attention.
And and I think what's the most interesting
thing is the fact,
that it was such a non issue for
our members
That,
it seems that it was a very natural,
development to them that having served my two
terms as vice president,
I would now,
have the opportunity to serve as president. So
I think, for many of us that was
more surprising than anything, the fact that there
wasn't a lot of discussion about it. There
are some though, and I think it's a
minority, who are opposed to a woman leading
this organization.
And in fact, there are some who use
this saying, which is ascribed to the prophet
Muhammad, which translates roughly to whenever God wants
the destruction of a people, he makes a
woman their leader.
How do you respond to that?
Well, certainly, there are,
those people who believe that that Muslim women
shouldn't have public roles
and, the question is what is their proof
for that?
There are many, many sayings that are attributed
to the prophet Mohammed and Muslim scholars have
always,
looked at those and tried to sort which
are authentic and which are fabricated.
Many of them were fabricated for political purposes
or,
people who wanted to support their position and
that's what we have to look at when
we see, in fact,
and we we weigh any particular saying against
all the other things the prophet Mohammed said,
what he did and also the the message
of the Quran, which is clearly,
states that,
Muslim women can contribute to the same
level and in the same way as Muslim
men. We see that that women had public
roles during the lifetime of the prophet Muhammad
and his immediate successors,
followed women who were in leadership positions.
So, when we look at the preponderance of
evidence,
I think we have to, give these other,
reports that are quite Are you saying that
that particular saying can't justifiably
be attributed to him? Well, this is a
question of Hadith scholarship, and, I would defer
that to those who are have more,
who are specialists in that area, but there
has been a lot of discussion about that
statement
and whether it in fact violates,
many other,
clear Quranic statements about gender equality, as well
as other statements attributed to the prophet Muhammad.
In your role as the president of the
Islamic Society of North America, you say you
have detect what you would call Muslim fatigue
among North America's
Americans, and in fact, you say, the sense
I have from Americans is that they don't
wanna hear Muslim talk Muslims talking about Islam
anymore. They just want us to do something
to stop causing all these problems in their
lives. And I'm wondering, is this the,
the challenge for you as president,
and how you're going what you're going to
do to make Islam better understood among Americans.
I think the first challenge is to show
that Muslims are like other people
in that,
we have our good guys and our bad
guys.
There are there are criminals in Muslim societies,
just as there are
criminals in Christian societies. United States has around
2,000,000 people in jail, probably most of them
Christian.
So we don't judge,
people and a civilization
and a religious community by the worst of
them. And I think that's the the real
challenge because Americans are naturally interested in the
ways that that Islam is impacting their lives.
And the reality is that there were,
people and there have been people who have
used Islam to justify
violence and terrorism
and,
in particular,
the terrorist acts of 911.
That's a reality, so
Americans are gonna be first and foremost interested
in that.
And they want Muslims to do something about
it.
We would love to do something about it,
but what kind of role do we have?
We have our voice,
we have our writing,
we have our example,
but we are not
ultimately in control of of these people who
are doing these things. And I think it's
that sense of, collective guilt or responsibility
that we really have to,
try to avoid
and explain to American people and have them
see that it's unfair to put that burden
on us.
I I wanna ask you one more question
and then I wanna open it up to
our audience for their questions.
Terrorist killing in the name of Islam, you
say is not the true Islam. Describe the
true Islam, the 5 pillars, if you will,
to help explain for those who don't know
what exactly the the doctrine or the, the
the underpinnings are of this religion. Well, Islam
primarily is about belief in God and about
the unity of God, and what that means
is that Muslims recognize
their limitations.
That's why we try to submit ourselves and
our lives
to,
to in obedience to god. And what that
means is that we live our lives,
first in that awareness.
We exhibit that through our acts of worship,
as you say, the 5 pillars,
praying 5 times a day and ritual prayer.
Even more than that, I mean, supplications
and invocations, but the ritual prayer 5 times
a day,
fasting during the month of Ramadan, the pilgrimage,
to Mecca, paying yearly
a significant amount of our wealth.
In fact, 1 percent of of your salary
goes 1 well, 2.5%
of a Muslim's wealth has to go for
annually
to the zakat, to the charity.
For me, I have to pay 1% of
my income to to the Islamic Society of
North America as a member of the of
the board.
So that's an extra commitment.
But all of these things,
are to show our gratitude to God and
that's what Islam really is about. It's about
showing
gratitude for all of the things,
that he's given us. Even our own our
own selves, our our ability to,
to speak and to live in community with
each other and try to,
live in the most
merciful and humane way that we can.
Is there a question in the audience?
Yes. I wondered whether,
you were concerned about
the potential for,
the radical Islam,
group
to be,
come involved in in mosques around the United
States, and
sort of, dominate
the, voice of Islam in the United States
and what you and your organization could do
in response to this?
That's a great question. Thank you.
The challenge in in American Assam in particular
is that
we do not have a hierarchical
church structure.
In fact, we have a very loose kind
of voluntary association.
And because of that, each community is individual.
So there's no,
our organization
has no authority to go into any mosque
and demand that they,
run a certain way or speak a certain
way.
But what we can do and what we
are doing is developing
a set of best practices
for mosques and Islamic Centres
to develop guidelines
for those communities,
how their governance
structure should work, what qualifications
there should be for imams,
what are the kind of,
what's the kind of training that an imam
should have,
and to and to then,
once we have developed these guidelines, offer training
programs. So we have a number of training
programs
for imams
to help them understand their context, especially if
they've come from another country.
Because the reality is that many communities are
still,
bringing imams who have been trained in other
countries, who may be good,
preachers, they may be good theologians, but they
don't
necessarily the context of their community here. So
we're putting a lot of energy into that,
trying to help,
orient them, train them, and then ultimately
and ideally, have our own seminaries in this
country where we can,
have our own children
and our own young people be, a generation
of leaders.
You say that American Muslims,
have a special obligation to help stop the
violence that is committed by Muslims in the
name of Islam.
Why do American Muslims have this special duty
to do that?
Well, as I said before, we don't necessarily
have any special power,
but we do have an obligation because we
have the freedom
to talk about these issues.
And the reality is that most Muslims in
the world
live in,
environments where they don't have that freedom,
because their political rights are suppressed,
their freedom of speech is very limited,
they may not have access to to the
resources that we have. So there's a moral
obligation for us to exercise that kind of
leadership
and it doesn't mean there's anything
special or unique about Americans,
but we have this rich,
diverse Muslim community. We have Muslims from every
part of the world. So we can draw
upon their experiences,
their heritage, their perspective
and and
debate these issues in a way, in a
free way,
so that we can then
encourage a discussion,
in other countries.
The other thing is that
we're Americans, we're part of this country and
the United States is heavily engaged in,
Muslim countries, you know, in their economic policies,
their political policies.
So, we also need to look at it
as American citizens.
How can we,
be a bridge of understanding between the United
States, our policies,
and, Muslims,
in other countries.
You said that you previously,
never spoke, for example, about,
suicide attacks
committed by Muslims in the name of, Islam.
You said that you didn't avoid the subject,
but that it it really wasn't something almost
on your radar screen. What what prompted a
change in that? Why is that something that
you do talk about now?
I think,
many Muslims in America, like many Americans before
September
11th, were rather parochial. I mean, this is
a big country and we have so many
things going on here.
We don't necessarily see our connection to to
what's going on in other countries.
And my major concern as an educator and
as a Muslim leader was the development of
our organizations
here in this country,
our schools,
our
mosques, our associations.
But when all of us were shocked by
the events of September 11th, we realized that,
if we didn't pay attention to what was
going on in the rest of the world,
it would still impact us. And so, at
that point, we had to look closer at
the kind of discourse
that was happening in other Muslim countries, the
way that that Islam was being used to
justify,
certain violent actions and take a stand on
that and so we proceeded to do so.
In fact, you say American Muslim leaders who
oppose the oppression of Muslims on the one
hand and also
wanna fight terrorism
risk being seen as traitors by both sides
and I'm wondering if you personally
have felt any backlash as a result of
your outspokenness.
Certainly, it's a challenge,
and Muslims in other parts of the world,
look to us,
as as Americans as well as Muslims. And
so they want us to do something about
American policy that they don't like or that
they feel that negatively impacts them,
Whether they understand the the intricacy
intricacies of that policy or not, I think
is another issue.
But then on the other hand,
there is an unfortunate feeling on the part
of much of the American public that,
Muslims
need to prove themselves. They're guilty until,
they prove that they're innocent.
And that if we say,
something that any other American would be free
to say, for example, something about the Iraq
war,
suddenly it's not because it's a moral issue
or American issue but because, as Muslims, we
really don't have the interests of the United
States at heart.
Even though the majority of Americans in the
last election, I think, showed that they were
unhappy with,
much of the way the Iraq war is
going.
Somehow, it sounds a little bit different when
it comes out of
a Muslims,
from a Muslim perspective.
I think there is probably another question percolating
out here. Go ahead. Well, let me get
a microphone to you, and in the meantime,
while that microphone gets there,
there are 6,000,000,
Muslims in America,
and and I think in the US and
in places like Europe, many people wanna know
are and and you talked about how diverse
the population is, but are Muslims interested in
in integrating,
in in separating, or in some way
transforming western culture
to become
a little more Islamic?
Would you answer that?
Yes to all of those things.
And I think this is the key that
that we have to treat Muslims as individuals
not as a collectivity.
Muslims represent
a broad scale, a broad range of
cultural and,
ideological positions,
just as Americans do. I think when we
when we look in the United States and
the history of religious communities in the United
States, we see those utopian
communities that try to be
somehow,
a presence, a spiritual presence apart from the
world,
to offer an alternative to the dominant culture.
And then we see those who felt that
that it was best to live their spirituality
and their ideals
right in the midst of it and and
to try to,
to be part of
of everyday life but be
a moral voice amidst that. So I think
we find the same thing with with Muslims.
In the United States, I would say that,
the majority feel that it's best to be
to be active,
to be part of everyday society and most
Muslims do do that.
The Muslim community in the United States is,
on average, more educated
and more well off than the average American.
So, we see that there's there tends to
be more assimilation
in the United States. The situation in Europe
is a little bit different and,
many of the Muslim communities there
come from,
countries that were colonized by the Europeans and
now there's a kind of blowback, you know,
the the Europeans invaded and occupied their countries
and now these people are coming and have
are living in Europe
struggling with racism,
struggling with
European countries that are not quite as open
to diversity
and pluralism, perhaps, as the United States and
not quite as open to public expressions of
religion as the United States.
So the dynamic is is significantly
different, I believe, in Europe than than in
this country. Okay. Go ahead. Well, you you
alluded to, the the responsibilities
of being a Muslim American.
But I wonder if you could say,
given the sort of stereotype
that that is sort of pervading, even before
911, I mean, I was reminded that in
the Oklahoma City bombing, the initial attribution
was to,
Muslims or at least Arabs.
How do what do how do you do
you advise
members of your group and particularly young people,
I guess I'm interested in knowing, about dealing
with that stereotype and still exercising
their freedom of speech as Americans?
I'm I'm really glad you brought up,
young people because they're the ones that I'm
most concerned about and I'll tell you why.
This kind of stereotyping
and distrust of Muslims is having
a large negative effect on them.
I have a lot of interaction with Muslims
who are, counselors,
psychiatrists,
working in mental health fields,
youth workers, and they've seen,
a dramatic rise
in depression,
anxiety,
all
indicators of stress because of this.
They feel that,
they can't present themselves just as
as they are, but they have to somehow
explain
or or prove themselves that they aren't violent.
You know, they're just kids. They don't know.
They don't understand what's going on in the
world, but they're being asked to explain these
things. So it's really problematic,
and this is where, as a community, we
need to work with teachers
and those who touch the lives of young
people
to, alert them to this dynamic and try
to find ways,
to ease their stress somewhat.
The only solution really is education.
It's challenging
for a community, a minority community that's
at most 2% of the population
to impact
the the other 90 8% of the population
in a positive way with their message
when, at the same time,
we're constantly being bombarded,
with images overseas,
of war in Iraq, of this kind of
violence.
So it's an enormous challenge, but I have
to say that
that we're also very fortunate that we are
not alone in doing it. There are so
many,
faith based organizations,
interfaith groups, other religious organizations
who are sincere and wanting to help us
and to help get that message
out. And we have, in my work at
Hartford Seminary,
I interact,
with with priests and ministers
who themselves are educating their congregations on Sundays
and saying,
we cannot fall back into these old patterns
of collective guilt
and stereotyping.
So to me, that that is proof of
really the best
that is in American society and
it makes me hopeful even amid,
amidst all of, the bad news.
And we'll take another question,
in in just a moment we'll get a
microphone to you so until that microphone gets
there. There was a a recent gala poll
that showed that nearly 40% of Americans admit
prejudice,
against or towards Muslims and then also that,
1 in 5 Americans said they would not
want a Muslim as a neighbor. How do
you respond to that?
Well, what's interesting is the other statistic
that the,
majority of Americans who have a positive view
of Muslims
do so because they have a Muslim neighbor
or a Muslim friend or a coworker.
So I think that shows that the problem
really is that of the fear of the
unknown
or maybe the fear of the image that's
being projected.
That really is the challenge and, certainly programs
like this
and others are doing their part in in
humanizing Muslims,
in
trying to present
a balance to the negative images that we
get,
but it's challenging
and,
I think
that what's what's required is, as in many
other areas,
for Americans to be a little bit more
sophisticated
in their consumption of news
and perhaps to be a little bit more
self aware
of their own
the way that their own
emotions can be manipulated,
by
by news and information and images.
But you mentioned a moment ago, the news
and the media and our consumption of of
those things. And, of course, many Americans have
have seen the documentary, The Cult of the
Suicide Bomber,
or at least they've seen the movie that
was based on it, which starred George Clooney,
Sirianna.
And in it,
in the documentary, there is a scene,
where thousands of people are in a mosque
in Iran
chanting death to America.
And I'm wondering how your organization
can counteract
the powerful message that that sends.
Well,
that is a powerful message and it's a
frightening message
and it's also frightening when we look and
we see that even in America,
there are,
there are churches where the message on Sunday
is that Muslims are evil.
Muslims
are
are,
people who should not be part of this
country,
that that
the government should use its power, in fact,
to,
to subdue and,
Muslims.
Those things happen in this country and when
I see those those group,
pictures,
I remember,
the pictures that we saw of Nazi Germany,
where you would have Hitler,
talking in front of large crowds,
of people and whipping up their emotions.
And I think, as Americans, we have to
be very sober and consider in what way
the same thing could happen to us. We
may not be sitting in a stadium,
but we're sitting, millions of us, together in
our homes having our emotions manipulated.
But there also was the time when when
Afghanistan was first attacked,
in response to September 11th.
The first
attack and the announcement of it
was,
announced
in,
on on,
Sunday football game,
large screens,
thousands of Americans sitting in a stadium, and
they all got up and cheered when this
was announced.
And that's frightening.
You talked a moment ago about what it's
like for a a child, a Muslim child
in America. What's it like for an adult?
Have have you been the victim of,
prejudice?
Of course, I'm very privileged because I work,
I work in an environment that values,
religion and
religious expression.
Of course, walking down the street, people wouldn't
know that and I've had my random
rude comment here and there, but, far more
positive comments,
far more occasions of people just giving me
a smile,
clearly wanting to say, it's okay. I, you
know, I accept you,
even non verbally.
But,
there is a concern,
many people are having
increasing
challenges in their workplace.
We've heard many more,
cases of employment discrimination,
Muslims who are being fired or prevented from
promotion in their job because they are Muslim.
Certainly, the number of hate crimes, generally, has
increased
enormously.
The Council on American Islamic Relations has been
documenting that, and the numbers are quite frightening.
So there are,
there is a problem. There is a problem,
and it's, at that point, incumbent upon the
government
to really take leadership.
Fortunately,
the,
the Department of Justice and the EEOC
have taken a number of cases
and have done a good job.
But at the same time, you know, we
have this kind of mixed message. You have
you have those cases
and then, on the other hand, we see
the mistreatment of prisoners, of Muslim prisoners. There
was recent news about enemy
combatant.
And,
as a an enemy combatant.
And when when ordinary people see that this
kind of thing is going on,
I'm afraid that it might give them some
kind of license to feel that they too
can mistreat Muslims.
You mentioned government, and, of course, Britain's Tony
Blair
said that the headscarf
separates Muslims and and shouldn't be used.
And I'm wondering
what your reaction is to that and and
what the purpose of it is, what it
means to you.
Well, what's interesting is that,
Tony Blair was supporting Jack Straw,
who who was protesting against the face the
face veil.
So, they said, well, the head covering's okay,
but the face veil is too is too
much and this is a sign of separation
of society
from society and should be rejected.
And
I don't know if you've been in London,
but I've walked around London before and I've
seen some really interesting ways of dressing.
You know, I've seen 9 inch purple mohawks.
I've seen multiple facial piercings
and
I've never heard, the British government,
comment
on any of those modes of dress. So,
clearly, there is,
there is selective treatment there and I think
it's unfair.
These women should be free to wear what
they want.
It's the government's job as a servant of
the people to represent the people, not to
dictate to them,
their way of dressing. Whatever I, you know,
I feel personally about the face veil is
something else, but I certainly support the right
of individuals to wear
what what they wish and,
so this was simply a politicization
of,
you know, of of an issue that should
never never have
been said. Okay. You had a question, sir?
Yes.
Do you believe that the American news media
have been fair in their presentation
of the
situation of,
Muslims in America? Or do you think they
have contributed to the problems that you're talking
about?
Well,
the news media is is diverse and I've
had great experiences
with with,
most with commercial media,
but public television and radio is much better
and that's just the reality.
Commercial media is about making money and it's
it's things that are sensational,
that make money.
Conflict
attracts attention.
I think of, the Pope's visit
to Turkey and what was interesting
was
you could see that the media kept was
looking for conflict
and they kept framing this visit in terms
of conflict, when in fact,
any,
fair observer would have said that the real
story was the lack of conflict
and was The real story was that in
the wake of a number of,
incidents in Europe where there were there were
this
tension and stress between
Muslim communities
and and others
that,
things worked out quite well. So I think,
you know, I I don't think we can
ever really change that because that's the nature
of commercial media.
So we need to
we need to be,
sophisticated
observers of news, I think, and consumers of
news.
And we'll get a microphone to, can we
get a microphone to someone here?
Could you talk a little about the Muslim
definition of God and how it might differ
from the Christian
notion?
Well,
the word,
God
that is used in the Quran, Allah, the
primary word, is the same word that that
Christian Arabs use to call God.
So in terms of whether this is the
same God or a different God, I think
we have to say that certainly the Quran
recognizes that there's one God
and that people have approached God through different
ways.
Christians,
generally,
you you have to believe in the divinity
of of Jesus to be a Christian. I
think that most Christian theologians would say that
that not accepting the divinity of Jesus would
take you outside of Christianity,
although there are,
certain Christian theologians who would say otherwise.
But that really is the the main difference.
Muslims
see,
Jesus and all the prophets
as as
perfect recipients of the divine light. And as
one of my my colleagues,
Timothy Winter, who's a lecturer at Cambridge, said,
is that
what what the Muslim view was that
Christians
mistook the perfect mirror of the divine light
for the divine light itself.
So really, that's where the difference is.
God in the Quran is is described in
many ways according with many attributes, and that's
how Muslims approach
god through his attribute of mercy and kindness
and loving and
forgiver and,
creator.
So that's how we come to know God.
Sometimes people say that,
the Muslim God is
so
transcendent
that he's unapproachable,
but that's clearly not the case.
The Quran describes God as closer than your
jugular vein. So God is is always
the nearest
thing to you without being manifest in in
any part of creation.
But another interesting difference and we'll take a
question in a moment is,
Christians have
statues and paintings and and so forth of
of Jesus
and there aren't, those kinds of representations of
the prophet Mohammed, In fact, it's forbidden, considered
blasphemous. Why is that the case?
Islam,
above everything,
wants to maintain
the,
uniqueness
of god as distinct from creation.
So the attempts of humans to portray God,
in any way is considered to be
highly presumptuous,
at least.
And then the fear is that
by by portraying prophets,
the prophet Mohammed, for example, by making depictions,
that people then may start to take that
as as an icon, as a, avenue of
worship
and that's to be avoided.
So that Muslims
try to maintain
that connection
of God
to that connection with god
directly
through,
through prayer, but also
by embodying,
the actions of the prophet Muhammad that taught
us how we can approach God. What kind
what way should we pray
to find that path to God?
Okay. We have a question over here, sir.
Your mini bio mentioned that you spent time
in Pakistan.
My daughter spent 4 and a half years
in Peshawar working with Afghan refugees.
I can't well represent her comments, but, in
effect, she would say to you that a
great deal of so called
Islamic
practice
is pagan. It has nothing to do with
the Quran.
Mhmm. And in fact, while she was there,
Mullahs were giving her grief all the time.
They would say the Quran says the Quran
says, when they could neither read Arabic nor
speak Arabic. Mhmm. And she, in fact, had
the Quran
translated into her du Mhmm. Emphasizing women's rights
and emphasizing sanitation and health because of the
terrible practices that apparently these men
perpetrated, especially in things like childbirth and so
on. I'm seeking your comments on on that
particular point.
Right.
Well,
there's there's certainly different levels of education,
among Muslim people and
the Quran emphasizes the need for learning,
for knowledge,
and knowledge not just of scripture, but of
the natural world.
And this is why we see that at
the height of Islamic civilization, that Muslims were
at the forefront of medical knowledge, for example,
discovering
the mysteries of the circulatory
system and others. So when we see Muslims
in certain parts of the world
who are resisting
modern knowledge,
who are,
in fact, resisting even
much literacy in in religion,
it is troubling.
At the same time,
I I would have to say that we
can't,
you
know, brush them all off. I met
remarkable,
people of great spiritual
depth
among, the Afghan people and and in Pakistan,
despite their challenges.
But certainly, there is,
there are many cultural practices that are being
portrayed as religious,
whether the people know it or not.
Okay. Go ahead. You mentioned diversity before,
and I understand that your
society likes to promote pluralism so that everyone
can have their own identity of Islam. But,
isn't this also difficult? And how do you
deal with the differences of viewpoints and when
maybe you see any conflict come up? And
also,
for the new generation of non immigrant Muslims,
how do they How is your society helping
them to find their way in identifying with
Islam?
Well, this is,
one of the biggest challenges is to, on
one on the one hand, provide guidance,
in those areas,
where we need to take a stand And
on the other
hand, keep the the door open for,
respecting other opinions.
Famous or maybe infamous issue is the issue
of, moon sighting,
where,
we have to make a decision on
on the method by which we will begin,
we will decide when the new lunar month
begins.
That's important to know when the beginning of
Ramadan
starts for fasting, when we celebrate the Eids,
and there are different ways of doing that.
People feel very strongly about the different methodologies
that are employed.
Our society has taken a certain position
that, we believe is is the best position
for Muslims in North America, but not the
only position.
And so, it's that
it's
it's being able to to say,
look, there are a variety of equally valid
positions, but but this is what we believe
is the best
that that,
is challenging for some people who just want
one answer, who want a simple answer.
And in certainly in my teaching,
what I try to do,
is to let young people come to terms
with that, come to terms with
with,
the diversity
that is,
present,
and that they have to recognize in Islamic
legal reasoning at the same time to be
able to make a decision. I mean, you
can't just say, okay, there are all sorts
of opinions. At some point you have to
take one yourself
and then, feel certain confidence in that. Alright.
We have a question down here. I'm interested
in Suvism
and I'd like to know what is the
relationship between Sufism and Islam.
And why we haven't heard much about Sufism
in the West.
Mhmm.
Sufism is the,
is a mystical tradition in Islam. It's part
of
Islamic,
religious life and culture.
Sufism in its various forms is everywhere in
the Muslim world.
Traditionally,
in the pre modern period, especially, every Muslim
had a legal school
that he or she followed, a theological school
and also a a, spiritual tradition,
through the different Sufi brotherhoods.
Now, these,
these,
spiritual paths,
took all different forms. Some of them, I
think any objective observer would say,
really veered away from from Islam and became
quite syncretic and and picked up many of
the
traditions or practices
that non Muslims performed.
But most, the the majority of Muslims stayed
within Orthodox Islam,
but but Sufism was
an added discipline
to enhance their spirituality
of Islam.
I think many Americans
know about
some Sufi figures,
people like Rumi
or,
Hafid, who were great poets and also,
Sufi leaders.
But it is something that perhaps is less
well known,
again, because,
good news travels slow and bad news travels
fast.
We talked a moment ago about, Pope Benedict
and his 4 day visit to Turkey to
Istanbul.
He prayed in silence for 2 minutes,
beside the imam,
facing Mecca and in Istanbul's
famous blue mosque.
His his guide in Istanbul said that that
gesture
was more powerful, more meaningful
than an apology. And I'm wondering if you
agree and how far you think that went
in healing the rift that was caused by
his, earlier statement.
Well,
I think there's there's 2 separate issues. I
I'm not fully satisfied
with that,
that the Pope understood
the reason why people were upset with what
he said.
So, I'm not I'm not quite sure that
that he still got the the message about
that. It wasn't just about hurt feelings, but
it was also,
about the the factual basis for what he
said. But I thought he disagreed with that
statement anyway,
because he followed up his his remark, and
he said, show me just what Mohammed brought
that was new, and there you will find
things only evil and inhuman
such as his command to spread by the
sword the faith he preached, but he went
on to say that violence is incompatible with
the nature of God and the nature of
the soul for all faith. So I thought
some people agreed that he was disagreeing with
that statement, not not confirming
it. Well, I think it's up to him
to
to clarify
his intention in his remarks. Having read the
the whole speech,
I do think there was something problematic.
But
what I would like to focus on is
the fact that
whatever that was about,
the the good news
was that he did not cancel his trip
to Turkey.
The Turks greeted him,
by and large,
hospitably,
graciously,
for a country of approximately 80,000,000 people. There
were,
really very small,
tiny demonstrations
relatively.
And the fact that he was allowed and
invited into the Blue Mosque,
the
What Turks would cons Turkish Muslims would consider
to be their most important,
mosque in Turkey shows that
that we understand that we won't always agree
with each other,
that sometimes we will hurt each other,
but that doesn't mean that we have to
cut off relations
and and
the fact that we have,
as Muslims and Catholics,
in particular,
over the last
maybe 10 years or more,
have been working very hard to establish good
relationships,
ties, alliances,
paid off at that moment,
that we were able to fall back on
those relationships
and say,
you know, this was unfortunate,
it was hurtful, but that doesn't mean that
we can't continue to
dialogue and try to work for greater understanding.
As a Muslim, very interested to talk about
how we deal with difficulties,
because,
when we have public discussions,
inevitably because of the context,
in which such discussions take place, we try
to emphasize,
and I think this is a good thing,
the good news and the positive.
But you you said something to me which
struck me as very important and very honest,
and you said that there are sometimes actions
among us Muslims which are more undermining
and dangerous and offensive,
both to ourselves and also to, the wider
world, and I was wondering how you deal
with some of these difficult issues of great
differences, whether they are theological or political
or strategic,
because I I think,
it heartens me that, there is that degree
of self reflection, but but also agreeing to
look at the difficult subjects and and deal
with them creatively.
Thank you.
Ultimately,
our our goal as Muslims is to live
righteously
and ethically.
Our goal is not to
be some kind of,
group that
just
cheers whatever it does.
That, in fact, is what Ibn Khaldun,
the great,
medieval Arab scholar called asabiya, group sentiment.
Religion isn't supposed to be group sentiment. It's
not supposed to be,
about just
sustaining
and and justifying your your group beyond anything.
Yes, we're supposed to build community, but what
is that community built around? If it's not
built on piety and righteousness and the search
for what is good and better, then there's
no value in it.
And the Quran says very clearly that if
Muslims make the same mistakes
and and choose to turn away from God,
and live
a life
that is unjust,
then we will go down the same path.
We will lose our
opportunity
to be moral leaders and we'll be replaced
by someone else.
So, that's the priority. To me, the priority
is
our own,
internal structure, our development
as a as a community.
We do have to defend ourselves from
external attacks,
but we have to be proportionate. What is
an attack?
Clearly,
legislation
that discriminates against Muslims and
and impedes Muslims' abilities to live as Muslims
is a problem. That is a real threat
and we face some of those threats and
we need
to put resources into defending ourselves.
And unfortunately, when we do that kind of
defense, it takes away some of our ability
to deal with our own internal problems.
After 9 11, so much money
in the Muslim community and human resources
went into legal defense
and to defend the civil rights of Muslims
in this country
that could have been put into,
you know, developing our institutions
to be more
responsible and responsive to the needs. So, that's
unfortunate,
but,
but it's something that we have to do
and I'm
I'm I'm happy to see that
that there's an eagerness and a hunger among
Muslims
to take responsibility
for their own communities
and and I love to see that. I
love the fact that there are many Muslims
who say, you know what?
This is my mosque, this is my community.
I'm I'm not gonna just sit back anymore
and, you know, listen to some speech that
is
that is offensive,
that is sexist, that is whatever.
But, I'm gonna take some responsibility for what's
going on here and and,
try to correct that.
We're gonna wrap things up here. So, I'd
like you to end by giving us, a
take home message for Muslims
and non Muslims
and and what you as the president of
the Islamic Society of North America will be,
putting your energies into when you leave here.
Well,
my
my main message is that,
as a as a religious person, as someone
who's trying to please God, I have to
say that we need to do a better
job,
all of us.
That
that,
God did not give us the resources that
we have, the enormous resources that we have
in America,
so that we could fight each other more
sophisticatedly.
He gave us those resources so that we
could improve the world,
so that we could care for the hungry,
so that we could demonstrate compassion and mercy
in our lives.
We need to do that in community.
That means that Muslims need to reach out
to their neighbors. They need to reach out
to
Christians and Jews and those of goodwill who
are trying to improve
the situation.
And and Americans,
need to stop being afraid.
They need to to stop giving into that
fear
and have a certain confidence. This is a
strong country.
This is a country that can,
that has
undergone,
many
pressures,
economic, political, military in the past,
and has always
come out on top when it acted ethically
and morally and lived up to its values.
So stop being afraid and and
don't give up what makes you an American,
for the sake of fear.
And if you reach out to your Muslim
neighbor,
you will find, by and large Although, there
are some some of us are rude and
obnoxious and not that nice.
But I think, by and large,
you'll you'll find a good experience with most
of us. And your priorities in the in
the coming year?
Priorities are
standards, standards, standards, and,
developing a new generation of Muslim leaders who
are going to work in this country
to make
Islam, a responsible,
relevant, dynamic faith community.
Alright. Thank you so much, doctor Ingrid Matson,
for being with us. We really appreciate it
from the Hartford Seminary in Connecticut.
For all of us at Penn State Public
Broadcasting, I'm Patty Satalia. Thanks so much for
joining us.
A copy of the program you've just seen
can be purchased through Penn State Media Sales
atmediasales.psu.edu
or by calling 800-770-2111.