Ingrid Mattson – Muslims in America
AI: Summary ©
AI: Transcript ©
Think forward.
Think Research Channel.
Good evening, and welcome to tonight's lobby talk
on Muslims in Pennsylvania.
My name is Jonathan Bracup, associate professor of
religious studies and history here at Penn State,
and I'm a specialist on Islamic law and
comparative ethics.
Before I ask our panelists to introduce themselves,
I want to thank all of you for
coming to this event. We are very much
looking forward to, answering your questions and having
a conversation with you on this important topic,
and I'm very pleased to see so many
of you here.
It's not easy to talk about one's faith
in public,
particularly when you belong to a minority religious
tradition.
Some Muslims,
have been here for generations.
Others are new immigrants.
Many are converts.
And altogether, there are somewhere between 4 6000000
Muslims in the United States today.
In all cases, they enjoy the religious freedom
that's guaranteed to all of us by our
constitution,
yet they also face prejudice and even
fear on a daily basis.
Therefore, I'm particularly grateful to our panelists,
Saqibha Khan,
Mumina Kowalski,
Abdullah Yavas,
and Jordan Lane
for coming and joining us tonight and agreeing
to talk about their experiences.
I'm gonna ask each one of them to
introduce themselves first,
then we'll have a little conversation among us.
And then,
about 20 minutes in, I'll be turning to
you, and we'll be inviting your questions and
comments.
So first of all, Sakiba Khan, would you
please introduce yourself to the audience?
Well, hi. I'm Sakiba Khan. I'm a senior
at State High.
Well, I've been living in State College for
a year. I moved last year from a
small town called Du Bois,
If most of you have heard of that
town, I was the only
Muslim well, one of the only Muslim families
living in Du Bois at that time.
And after I moved, I realized how diverse
the college is.
And
compared to Du Bois at least.
And my parents are originally from Bangladesh.
Though I was born and brought up in
America,
we go to Bangladesh
every summer, and I love the culture there.
Thank you.
My name is Momena Kowalski
and
I have been a resident of State College
for
the past 27 years.
I am a lifelong
Pennsylvania resident, I grew up in Pittsburgh
and I I'm a convert to Islam. I
converted
in 1978,
so I have really been a Muslim,
actually several years longer than I have been.
I was born and catechized in the in
the Lutheran church.
So,
I reached that critical juncture of my life
where
the, the majority of years I've lived as
a Muslim.
I, went to
school in, as I said, Pittsburgh.
I went to a women's college called Chatham
College
in the seventies,
which
might say something to those of you who
know about
women's colleges in the seventies or,
pretty much education was a feminist
education
and
I studied art, so
my whole outlook is
was about creativity
and also about critical thinking, which is something
that my teachers gave me there.
And so, many people including my family were
quite surprised when in 1978,
I I declared
my, interest and my conversion to Islam.
But I haven't looked back and I have
no regrets.
I've raised 5 children in Islam. I am
married and,
living in Center County and,
currently, I'm studying again now a master's degree
with the Hartford Seminary. Ingrid Matson is my
advisor
and I'm getting a degree in Islamic Studies
and Muslim Christian Relations.
So I'm enjoying that very much. I'm also
on
the rotation
of the clergy column in the Center Daily
Times.
So my
idea is to try to
present
Islam
to
Center County,
Center Daily Times readers
in small bits with an American twist.
Abdul?
Hello. I'm,
Abdulay Yawas. I'm currently a professor of business
administration here at Penn State.
I was born in a little village in
Turkey.
In case you couldn't tell from my accent,
I'm the only one who wasn't born in
the United States in this town.
Then moved here after
finishing,
undergraduate studies in Istanbul. Moved Iowa City, Iowa,
where I did my graduate studies.
And that was quite a shock going from
a 15,000,000 city to a city of 50,000,000,
population.
But I end up loving Iowa City and
and the cornfields around it, and the people
were incredibly very nice.
Then I moved to Penn State in 1992.
Since then, I've been teaching here, doing research,
getting involved in a number of community activities.
I'm married to
Jamile
Iwas who is also a faculty member here
at Penn State. And we have 2 beautiful
daughters,
Mary Anne and Sarah.
Mary Anne is 2nd grade, and Sarah is
4 and a half years old.
I'm Jordan Lane.
I've been
a Muslim for 4 years now, as of
September,
and,
I'm a student in the College of Education.
I'm super senior,
and,
I'm actually waiting to finish my thesis. I'm
doing
pre service teachers' attitudes about Islam,
that's in progress.
And,
there's not much to say except that I
grew up here, I've spent my entire life
in, the vicinity of state college.
And,
yeah, I'm
fully American, I'm fully Muslim.
It's about it for now.
Well, we had have had quite a bit
of, conversation
among the 5 of us, and I've had
the pleasure of knowing, actually, all the panelists,
in different sorts of ways in the past
couple of years.
One of the things we were talking about
is the fact that
we speak of the Abrahamic traditions, Judaism, Christianity,
and Islam. And indeed, Islam seems so similar
to,
Christian daily practice.
Muslims pray,
they give alms, there's a foundation of charity
and caring for others.
But as we were talking,
in fact, the,
daily practice of prayer
is quite different in Islam than it is
in the Christian tradition.
And in fact,
Jordan was sharing that this was a particular
difficulty for her when she converted.
One of the things that I want to
start with in our conversation
is some of these daily life aspects
of how Islam is lived out
and what are some of the issues that
Muslims face in Center County as they try
to live out their Islam.
So I invite any of you to respond
to that. Jordan, if you care to tell
the story, that would be delightful.
As I was just telling doctor Braca, one
of the most difficult,
parts of adjusting to Muslim life is the
ritual prayer. When I first converted,
I knew a lot about Islam when it
came to the basics, when it came to
the belief, what we call,
but,
not so much the practice. I really didn't
know what the intricacies of daily life meant.
And I thought to myself, oh, 5 times
a day. I pray all the time. That's
nothing.
But what people don't realize when they're,
entering Islam is that we have different types
of prayer. The types of prayer that,
Christians do, like daily remembrance of God as
you're as you're, say, driving your car or
or you,
invoke God's name before you eat or something
like that. That
is that is pretty common to religious Christians,
but,
what we have no concept of in
Christianity, but we do have in Islam
is ritual prayer, which requires a specific type
of,
washing, where you have to wash your hands
and your face and everything
before you do it. You have to wear,
specific type of clothing,
and there are certain movements you have to
do, not to mention that all of the
prayers are in Arabic.
So if you don't speak Arabic,
which I had a very, very rudimentary knowledge
of it entering,
it's really difficult. You have to memorize everything,
and that's before you can even
go through a day. You have to do
that 5 times a day from the second
you accept Islam as your faith. So, it's
really sort of overwhelming, but thank God it
it's gotten significantly easier over time for me.
I think, yeah, it's
it's overwhelming,
but I I hope that people don't get
the idea that it's something
insurmountable because
really it's a 7 line prayer.
And if you have it on a piece
of paper and set it 5 times a
day, you're gonna learn it about a week.
So
it's not insurmountable and really, when we talk
about ritual
prayer or formal prayer,
the formalities in Islam are very small, really,
compared to,
say, liturgical formalities in a church.
Say, for for instance, if you were studying
to become a pastor or a priest, you
would have to learn a lot of formal
things. Where in Islam,
actually the practitioner,
every practitioner,
learns the prayer,
does the fasting,
pays the charity,
and so it's it's it's more of a,
to me, an egalitarian
idea.
But one of the difficulties,
it seems to me, is
precisely finding
the
place to do the ritual washing, finding the
right place to to pray. Right. Not to
mention being allowed
to take off for a few minutes so
that you can go back and pray. I
recall living in Cairo. You know, I'd be
in a bookstore, and suddenly, the guy I
was talking to disappears for 5 minutes. And
So I realized that, oh, he just went
to the back to to do his prayer.
Exactly. That's completely accepted.
But, you know, if you do the same
thing in Walmart,
as we know, it can be very difficult
to get permission to have time off.
I would like to add that prayer was
not meant to be a difficult task. I
mean, that was not God's intention.
It was meant to be a way to
devote yourself to God and so I mean,
if you can't in circumstances
where you can't find water to do the
ablution or you can't find a place, I
mean, then you can just make your own
place and you don't have to do the
normal washing of the face and hand. I
mean, there are circumstances
where God wants to make it easiest for
us.
We do have
a busier
daily life schedule here too which
sometimes
makes it harder to find the time because
prayers,
need to be done at certain time intervals.
But on the other hand,
praying
is more rewarding in a busy schedule like
that because you can get overwhelmed and and
and just
let the whole day go by without remembrance
of God. And prayers sort of
force you to take off a few minutes,
reconnect,
and then go back to your busy schedule
again.
So in that sense,
it's it's more
rewarding or more,
enriching
to be able to do the prayers in
a in a busy schedule like this. Right.
Now, ritual prayer that we're talking about, the
requirement to pray 5 times a day.
The first one, by the way, for those
who don't know, is,
at the very moment of dawn. So it's
it comes pretty early.
And
then
this, though, is not the only kind of
prayer
in the Islamic tradition. Right? There are are
other kinds of prayer. Can you tell us
a little bit about those sorts of prayer
and when they're
done and
and how, in fact, they differ a little
bit from things we might be familiar with.
Well, like I said, the 2 types of
prayer that are pretty similar to what religious
Christians do, There's, dua, which is, like,
it's called a supplication
to God, where you ask God
for something, for whether it's something spiritual or
something in the earth. Just asking God to
help you with something, anything you need in
your life. And also,
which is,
remembrance. Like,
it's
just basically
praising God, thinking about the qualities,
of God that we know, the the such
as the the names of Allah, the 99
names of Allah,
to bring us closer to God. And you
can do that at any time. It's It's
spontaneous.
Yes.
You know, oh, God. Help me with my
homework or
Right. Don't let me eat that piece of
chocolate cake, or,
anything as simple or as, you know, grand
as you want to be. I mean, that
is basically
Dua. And you see with Muslims, they raise
their hands this way, whereas,
you know,
these are so similar. I mean, it's only
a, you know,
change of position, slight.
I know that when I'm stressed out with
all those exams in school, I just take
2 minutes and say a prayer, and it
just makes me feel a lot better, a
lot more confident about myself.
Now the ritual prayer, as you said, is
in Arabic, but the dua,
then you would say in English. Right? Mhmm.
In your own language or any language that
you speak. Right.
So it's more of a personal connection in
that way.
I wanted to talk also a little bit
about,
9 11 and
and what it's like to to be a
Muslim after that moment in time. Now, Saquiva,
you were
13?
Yes. 13 or 14. I was in 7th
grade, and most people did not know what
a Muslim was until 911.
And so when they would hear it on
television constantly,
they started asking me, innocently asking me questions
about it, questions about Islam, like,
asking me questions about
it. Questions about Islam, like,
do you guys follow polygamy and questions like
that. And so it gave me a really
good opportunity to get the name out, to
get Islam out and what it means to
me. Were you comfortable with that role or
was it a difficult time for you? Actually,
I was very comfortable with that role. Initially,
I was just, like, hesitant on what they
think of Islam and I didn't want them
to think of it as a terroristic religion.
So, I mean, getting that word out, I
thought that it was a very important thing
for me as a Muslim to do. Mhmm.
It's amazing that you were comfortable with that
role at the age of 13. I mean,
that's a lot to ask of a child
of 13. And
and really it was, you know, a lot
of stress. I I I believe in a
lot of families. I have 5 children and,
you know, these these were times that were
difficult for us
so that we, you know, and I was
very concerned about my children
at that time that they be able to,
feel comfortable
in the public space. And,
in many ways in State College, we were
very comfortable. We were made to feel
okay by this community
and it was
it was wonderful. Our our our mosque, our
masjid received a lot of
calls of of support and
concern
for our safety and,
we were very active
trying to,
we we organized an open house immediately.
Myself and other families
felt immediately that we needed to open
our,
place of worship up
so that people could, you know, feel comfortable
with us.
And but at the same time,
you know,
there were just so many issues that we
had to to deal with personally,
and,
many people
for the first time, you know, started to
leer at us openly.
My sons, in particular, were very protective
of me. They I have become used to
people staring at me with the the scarf,
and I almost like a horse with blinders,
I go through my daily,
shopping trips or wherever I'm doing. But,
my sons, if they were with me, they
would be very upset
when people would look at us with a
hard look and want to, you know,
defend me from these types of,
aggression.
I guess living in a small town of
Du Bois where I mean, living there for
the past 13 years, when I was 13
years old, 9:11 happened. Living there for so
long and knowing so many people in that
town, I just never had to face
criticism. Abdullah, that,
you felt you had a lot of support
here,
in State Abdullah, that, you felt you had
a lot of support here, in State College
from Yeah. It was a very emotional day.
On one hand, there was this tragic
horrific event that killed so many innocent people.
And at the same time, it brought up
the best in amongst some of some of
the, members of of State College.
I I got I still gave them. I
got a lot of telephone calls, letters,
some of them towards,
addressed to me. Some of them
asking me if I knew any students
who might need protection,
that they would open their homes to these
students.
My dean came down downstairs to my office
to see how I was doing. My colleagues
were concerned.
So it was
very emotional on on both levels.
And, Jordan, you converted to Islam then after
911.
Yeah. Actually What was the connection? Sort of
funny. I actually had been studying Islam for
about 3 years at that point.
I was a senior in high school when
911 happened,
and, I
bought the Quran when I was 15.
And, I didn't actually
get into reading it, which is another story,
until I was about 16, but I was
studying Islam,
through other sources reading about it, Karen Armstrong,
etcetera, that,
books and things like that, but I didn't
know any Muslims.
At the same time,
that was around the time when I was
starting to realize that I was, in fact,
Muslim.
But I didn't convert until my freshman year
of college, which is the year after that.
But at any rate, everyone, all of my
friends, because I did go to a very
small school and my graduating class was 84
people,
everyone knew me, everyone knew I was interested
in Islam, and everyone sort of saw me
as the representative,
and asked me all of the questions even
though I wasn't Muslim
yet. So, when it happened,
I thought to myself, oh, no. Please don't
let it be Muslim.
And of course, my worst fears were realized.
And so every day for all of my
senior year, I had to
answer questions like, well,
why do they blow up innocent people? Why
do they hate us? Why,
why America? What did we ever do to
them? And listen to things like,
oh, we should
just nuke the whole Middle East,
and all that. So I found myself,
on the defensive,
even though at that time I wasn't technically
Muslim yet. So Yeah. That question,
why do they hate us,
is particularly strange for all of you here,
I would think. Right? Because
in a sense, you're both they and us.
Who is they and who are us? Exactly.
And so that raises those questions.
You get an idea, I think, all of
you out in the audience, of the types
of things that, we'd be very happy to
entertain.
Now it's time that I want to,
turn to you and invite your questions and
and your comments.
Anything at all that,
that you'd like to ask this terrific group
of panelists that we have up here this
evening.
I have a question. You were talking earlier
about the prayer,
and it has to do with the workplace.
I happen to be a retired anesthesiologist
and I'm in the operating room from 7
in the morning till 5 at night Mhmm.
And, I barely have time to get lunch.
Now, how do my colleagues who,
have to pray, how do they how do
they manage that?
Thank you very much.
Well, I I don't know. Like, I
going being a high school student and going
to school from 6 in the morning to
2 and then having clubs afterwards, it's not
always easy to pray on time,
but as I said earlier,
God does make exceptions for those cases where
you absolutely can't take that that 5 minutes
off to pray and so you can do
it later in the night when you go
home. I mean, it's better to pray than
not to pray at all.
The the workplace issues are are difficult for
Muslims in America. I think
this is something that,
we
must, you know, talk about because,
well, I mean, I know most people get
smoking breaks
and I know they get bathroom breaks so
if a person is going to take
a 15 minute break,
you know,
at at or with their lunch,
that actually could suffice
for the afternoon prayer. The first prayer is
the dawn prayer
which if you're in your home, unless you're,
you know, it's it's probably pretty easy to
accomplish that unless you're on night shift,
but all of the prayer times
have a window of time.
So there's a beginning time and an end
time
for those particular prayers and that's around the
whole 24 hour clock. If you aren't able
to make the prayer in that time, you
can make up your prayer. It's a late
prayer. It's considered
it's considered
not optimal.
The best prayer is the prayer prayed on
time,
but there's always the option to make it
up later. I have to say this is
one of the things that makes
practicing daily life of of Islam very difficult
because
even if you have a an an employer
who's willing to do this, you still have
to ask for it. Right. You have to
put yourself out there. You have to say,
I need this time. I need this space.
I need a place where I can wash.
And depending on your position, if you're very
high up in the hospital and you have
the clout, then you can ask for that.
If you're some low ranking,
newly hired person,
that may be very difficult to request.
And I think it's important for us to
remember just how difficult these sorts of things
have to be. They require, in some sense,
proactive
response on the part of those of us
who are non Muslim.
Right. Thank you very much. Are there other
questions?
This is for the, for the converts. I
was curious, for someone born into the dress
seems, more regular or something you would be
used to. Why did you decide to go
with a traditional or a conservative approach to
your dress?
Do you wanna take that, Jordan? Or
I can.
I actually had a lot of trouble with
it. Not at first. I not personally, but
more with my family. My mother said exactly
what you said. She said, I I understand
why your friends wear it. It it makes
sense. It's their culture.
But I don't understand why you wear it.
Do you have to wear it? And then
she begs me, can you tie it in
the back? Can you, you know, can you
look a little bit more American? Can you
wear earrings? That kind of thing.
And these are things that, to me, I
think are silly.
Sometimes I do accommodate for her, and I'll
tie it in the back just to make
it a little easier on her because she's
been very understanding about the whole thing.
But what it comes down to is that
I personally believe it's required.
And I also think that
even if it weren't required,
it's a part of you. It it makes
you feel,
it reminds you of who you are.
It tells other people who you are.
In many ways it sort
of gives people an idea of how to
treat you and sometimes that's bad and most
of the time that's good.
And,
it puts the emphasis
on something other than your physical physical appearance.
You know, it's the most,
visible
sign of a Muslim but it's not the
most important thing. Right. I mean, the beliefs
and the practices
are
varied and
and diverse and,
you know, this is something that
represents,
your point of view and your your belief,
and I I also feel it's important. I've
I've been wearing the hijab for
as long as I've been a Muslim but
and,
I mean, I can say just from my
own,
point of view that it does,
affect the way people treat you.
I come from
white Anglo Saxon Protestant background, so I was
the majority culture.
I came into the minority culture in a
way
by putting on hijab.
So, you know, it's interesting
how people then treat you differently.
So, you know, it's almost like that book,
Black Like Me.
You take on this new
characteristic
and and you it actually is helpful
because the people that don't treat you very
well
probably aren't worth your time.
So it's sort of like
a Like a calling mechanism. Yes. A calling
mechanism. Very good.
Very good. No. But there are a wide
variety
of,
of styles of Islamic dress.
There's the the hijab. There's the
face veil. There's the burqa, which is the
complete covering.
Right. And these are many of them located
in particular regional and and cultural spheres. Right.
Did it ever occur to you to put
on the burqa,
for example?
No. And and I do actually, though. I
do have a friend who used to wear
the niqab, which is the face veil.
She
lived in
she lives in Philly. And, a lot of
women in Philly choose to wear the niqab.
And,
she
was
a grade school teacher, and so it worked
for her. She could she could take it
off in her classroom,
in front of the children,
and just deal with them,
in her hijab.
But she found after a while that,
it was very,
difficult for her to interact with society
in the niqab, and she ended up taking
it off. But with the hope that she
could put it on again someday because she
liked wearing it. Thank you. There are a
number of other questions. Yes, please.
I've always wondered, not always, but in recent
years, why it is that we emphasize so
much what women wear in Islam and not
what men wear?
That could do.
Abdallah?
No. Men's supposed to
wear modest clothes,
not revealing
or not too tight.
So there is a dress code for for
men as well.
But, I guess,
it's not as visible or
it doesn't have to be as different as
than what we're used to seeing as as
as headscarf.
But there are specifics. I mean,
I have to tell the story and embarrass
my cousin.
When he came to Egypt,
one time
and was walking down,
the main street right by the Nile, and
it was a sweltering day in the middle
of summer.
And he's just sweating, and so he just
takes his t shirt off.
And it was as if
he was naked. Right. Traffic stop. People are
staring.
It was a scene,
because he had seriously violated
the the dress code for for men. The
fact he was Muslim or not Muslim made
no difference whatsoever.
There's an extremely well known saying that every
religion has its character
and the character of Islam is modesty.
It's a huge
all pervading
statement
which means modesty in the sense of the
physical modesty
but also in in terms
of, you know, being generous and modest,
to people in general and having good manners.
So, I think that, yeah,
men taking off their shirts is
in Islamic culture considered immodest
as well as, you know, people wearing shorts
so, you know, if you are a tourist
in a Muslim country, you should know that
that would be considered offensive.
Yes, please.
I'm very reluctant to bring this up,
but it's something that has bothered me many,
many times and that is,
what does the Koran say about the infidel?
Thank you very much.
Actually, could I ask you a little bit
more,
to to say just a few more words
of what you've heard and We have read,
and I think that,
most of us, I believe,
that it's the,
oh,
the other side of your religion
who says
that the Quran says,
shoot
him or do something to him,
but don't let him go, And I can't
believe that. I simply can't believe that. And
I'd like to know what the Koran
really says.
How how do they
encourage
an infidel
to join
the,
the Muslim religion?
I have to begin by answering historically
that the Quran is
in some ways, a unique text because it
came into
a world
of,
religions that were were well known.
In other words, the Quran speaks directly about
Judaism, directly about Christianity,
as well as about monotheism. So in fact,
as about polytheism,
the Quran has a great deal to say
about other religious traditions. But I'd really like
to turn to the panelists and hear how
you've interpreted these Quran verses in in your
own lives, how you understand these things.
Well, I think if the danger of interpreting
verses without quoting verses is is very great,
number 1.
I mean, the Quran is available in the
public library. You're welcome to to go and
take it out and find those verses
and see what
we're talking what you're talking about because
I'm not clear,
what verse you're referring to. Now,
in terms of infidel,
I'm
I'm I'm guessing that you're talking about the
word Kafir,
and you have to remember that the Quran
was revealed in the 7th century in a
context,
in a time and place
and it was revealed over a period of
23 years
with, all kinds of things happening
to the prophet Muhammad,
peace be upon him, at the time that
he was receiving this revelation.
So
verses that are received
in the beginning of the revelation
primarily have to do with
him being this lone,
prophet
receiving a message
in the middle of a well civilized developed
city
of people who were polytheists in a tribal
situation
who were against
him receiving or having this message of
of claiming that there was one God
and this was not their tradition.
So we have that context to think about.
We have also the context of the outside
community
outside of Mecca
and even the Arabian Peninsula
being
a large Byzantine Empire,
Jewish community in Medina,
all these places and all of these contexts,
we know when verses were revealed
and in what context they were revealed, so
any scholar of the Quran is going to
bring you that material.
So when you just pluck a verse out
just as I as I would pluck a
verse out of the old testament,
it would not make sense
in a general sense, perhaps, or it wouldn't
make sense to practitioners
today in the 21st century
without the context.
And it's also important to note that,
there's a difference between
what,
I believe you're referring to as infidels. I
I I believe you're seeing that as non
Muslims,
But the Quran distinguishes
between non Muslim
monotheists,
as in Christians and Jews. They're called akhulkitab,
the people of the book. They have their
own revelations,
and they're different from the term
that Lemane used,
the kafirun,
which are the disbelievers.
And the disbelievers usually in the Quran are
referring to those
specific
disbelievers
at that time who were
assailing the Muslims, who were,
persecuting them.
So
your interaction with someone in a society like
State College Pennsylvania
is very different from your interaction
with,
a group
of
polytheists from Mecca
who are trying to kill you and are
trying to take your wealth and are trying
to
to basically wipe your religion off the face
of the earth. It's a different way of
dealing with people.
If I may
quote a verse from the Quran,
where it says, killing
a single person
is like killing entire humanity and saving a
human life is like is like saving the
entire humanity.
And that's a very well known verse, doesn't
require much interpretation,
and that's
that is the principle for Muslim. Killing is
one of the biggest sins one can commit.
Suicide is another one of the biggest sins
one can commit.
But because of what happened on 9eleven and
and a few events before and after,
Now unfortunately, we have this perception that,
where we see these quotations out of, context
and and and we get this perception that
maybe there's something wrong something in the religion
discussing these events.
One of the things that I often hear,
from people is this fear that,
yes, you know, when when Muslims talk to
non Muslims,
they represent everything as being easy and nice
and friendly.
But when you read the Quran, then you
find out what it's really all about.
And
that's an an easy,
explanation to fall into. And I think the
only way that one can really be convinced
otherwise is precisely to look at history,
to to look at exactly
how Muslims have lived and continue to live
with people of different faiths,
in the variety of Muslim civilizations that are
out there, today.
So thank you very much for that question.
I have a quick question to the converts.
What made you change your original,
original
religion to Islam? And by the way, I'm
very proud to Lisa Kiba's mom.
I'll
I'll answer quickly because, actually, I
don't think I really did change my religion
in anything other than name.
I'd always believed
what I came to know as Islam.
I didn't know that it existed
because I wasn't taught about Islam.
I actually grew up in an Arab American
family but they were Christian,
so all I knew was Christianity and you
were either a Christian or an atheist in
my mind. I knew there were other religions
but
I didn't know much about them.
So, when I started looking into my own,
roots, my Arab roots,
you can't really study that without studying Islam.
So the more I found out about it,
the more I thought, oh, wow, this is
what I already believe!' And I didn't know
any Muslims
until I'd already decided to be Muslim. And
I went to an MSA meeting, and
to become Muslim, you take your shahada, which
is your declaration of faith. And, I technically
couldn't have even done that in high school
because I didn't know 2 Muslims to be
the witnesses to hear me say it.
So,
yeah, it really wasn't that difficult of a
change for me in belief.
I was an art artist and I was
allowed to look at
different religions, you know.
And I was coming of age in the
seventies and status quo was
just all up for grabs, you know. Every
everything,
you know, you didn't have to be anything
in particular and and
for me to choose Islam was, you know,
kind
of different. My father thought I was joining
a cult because, you know, I became a
Muslim during the Iranian revolution.
And Jimmy Jim Jones or something was doing
the committing suicide down in Guyana and
all kinds of things were happening. But to
me, intellectually,
the Quran,
grabbed me
and,
actually putting on hijab had a huge effect
on me
as a woman.
Really, it's just like I, you know, separating
the the wheat from the chaff and and,
the practice, the everyday,
the prayer
diving into that,
when you when you when you ask God
for guidance, I mean, I I believe God
answers you.
Because I'm in front, I think I won't
stand.
I wanted to ask about those everyday practices.
Nobody said anything yet about the role of
meals and food and drink, and I'd love
to hear something about that.
Well, that's actually,
one of the things that my family has
been most supportive about.
First when I first converted, I didn't eat
halal. And for anyone who doesn't understand, halal
is similar to kosher, except that our rules
are not nearly as strict.
It's the way in which the animal has
to be slaughtered.
And, I didn't eat halal, I but I
didn't, of course, eat pork or alcohol,
So my grandmother would be very careful to
cook meals separately if she was cooking
ham or pork or something, she usually didn't
do it when I was there to eat,
but if she did, she'd use different utensils
and and,
make sure it didn't touch the food that
I was eating and things like that. She's
been very, very supportive when it comes to
that.
So that really wasn't too difficult, and you
can go to a restaurant and avoid
pork and alcohol pretty easily.
Now that I've started to eat halal, it's
a little more difficult,
because I can eat kosher
and I can eat fish,
and other than that, I really can't eat
meat.
So
it's a little more difficult, but it's it's
available and it's more available in cities.
So if I were to live in in
DC or Philly, it wouldn't be a problem
at all.
Something that I find very important is
before we eat we should always say a
prayer to God to just thank him for
the food and I know that's same in
Christianity,
Judaism
just to think of thank God for giving
us that food
and Muslims really hold on to that.
Yeah. I think the the whole issue of
food, we usually think of halal versus haram,
you know,
something that is okay versus something that is
forbidden
to us, but there's a saying that everything
God has permitted everything
except that which he has been explicitly prohibited.
So when we think of the vast
amount
of food choices in the world,
Think of all the fruits. Think of all
the vegetables. Think of all the grains. Think
of all
the just varieties
of wonderful delicious things.
And only prohibited are
certain meats where the animal has not been
really blessed or or
we haven't
really thought about taking that life
in a in a substantial way where we
haven't
purified the food or,
you know, we're we're we're mass producing, you
know,
and slaughtering these animals
with with horrible methods.
I mean, this is impacting our health.
This is a lot of Muslim Americans
are more concerned with, you know, organic
foods and
and foods that are pure in a spiritual
sense because,
you know, we're consuming.
We're a consuming nation and we're and we're
really being
consumed
by this this idea.
There are some other aspects of food that
I think are interesting to to bring up.
There is a festival of sacrifice,
for example. Now
this is celebrated
differently in in different places.
I recall
living in Tunisia where every household
had a had a sheep, basically. And,
in fact, when we were living there, my
son was 2 years old, and he really
fell in love with the sheep and
was very attached to them.
And then suddenly, one day, they were all
gone.
Tell us a little bit about what that
sacrifice is is all about and and what
it means and how you celebrate it here.
Again, it's it's an animal whose life is,
you know,
precious
in that,
you know, we know the story of Abraham,
the whole holiday,
the whole Hajj ritual,
revolves around the story of Abraham, the prophet,
whose son it was that was going to
be sacrificed is really inconsequential.
Muslims generally say it was Ishmael,
whereas, the Christian tradition holds that it's
Isaac.
But it's the whole idea of sacrificing,
you know, what God is asking us to
do. We're doing it, whereas at the last
moment, the son is withdrawn and the ram
or the animal is given in in place.
But
this idea of sacrifice
not being that we're doing some blood sacrifice,
you know, Christians kinda confuse that, you know,
Old Testament, New Testament. We're talking about meat.
We're talking about feeding people.
And really, this whole idea of
of Eid al Adha,
the feast of the sacrifice,
is is about
people eating meat
who might not eat meat
at all in the year.
Many people in the world
don't eat meat like we eat meat maybe
every day.
They have it at the 2 festivals.
So that's another context, I think, that we,
as Muslims, need to remember as well because
we've grown,
you know, wealthy Muslims living in wealthy places
have the same tendency to forget the real
meanings behind these things.
So when animals are slaughtered, then that 1
third of that meat is going to your
neighbors.
One third of that meat is going to
your poor people in your community,
and you're keeping 1 third for your festivities.
Is this something that you're able to
also do, here? I I would ask you,
Abdallah, the I imagine the Il Abha is
a little different, or Bayram, as you would
say, a little different, here than it would
be in Turkey.
It is.
In terms of
the sacrifice,
we have been consistently every year
deciding, choosing to
donate the money that sort
of there is a certain amount that would
buy, you know,
is is cheap or or or
something like that in different
various parts of the world.
So
we've elected to donate the money where the
charity organizations
would, on our behalf,
would then provide the meat to to needy
people in other parts of the world or
in the United
States. In terms of celebrating the holiday,
of course, I'm
in a unique
sort of position here because my
parents,
my bigger family are not here. So that
that is that because holidays are the times
of the year when you get together with
your parents, when you visit your,
relatives and and and get their blessings.
But on the other hand, there is
a community here.
And and the beauty beauty of that community
is that it's really a mosaic
of of of the cultures of of of
this planet. When you go to,
holiday prayer here,
which take place in the morning or the
1st day of the holiday,
It's it's amazing. Different
clothing, different
colors, different ethnical background, different languages being spoken,
and it really reminds you that you're a
member of of a whole planet.
Whereas
if you're in a more homogeneous,
society, say where I was born and raised
in Turkey,
you don't you don't get that experience.
And I think it's That's one of the
amazing things about the American Muslim community.
Like 80 countries of the world are are
represented by Muslims in America
and and America is the most diverse
religious country in the world
and I think that's our strength.
Absolutely.
Thank you.
As we look at the unrest around the
world today, much of which seems to be
explained by some in religious terms,
Do you see it as having a religious
core to it, or do you think we
should be looking elsewhere?
No. I think that there's a danger in
ignoring the religious element of it.
By saying that it's entirely political,
you're disregarding
a very deep set belief
in every individual who is involved in any,
let's say,
the Iraq conflict or the Palestinian conflict.
On both sides, you're ignoring something that is
essential to
the,
individual identity.
And to do that is is extremely dangerous,
but to say that it's
entirely religion is also extremely dangerous, because it
ignores political, economic factors,
everything else. But
any of the conflicts in the world are
such
huge
complicated issues that we have to look at
religion and everything else.
So many of our important,
thinkers, I think,
talk more about the
problems of modernity.
Karen Armstrong comes to mind
who can speak about different religions because she
studied them and wrote writes about them
in a popular way to make it easy
for us to kind of, get a grasp.
And, the idea of, you know, this
sort
of every individual
interprets religion on their own,
whereas, you know, we had traditions of scholarship
in all of the basic,
faith traditions that are being lost or are
being
forgotten
and, you know, with the advent of modern
technology, we have, you know,
ways of communicating now that are
so much faster and so much,
you know,
the the sword is a double edged sword.
It cuts both ways
so that, you know, anybody can launch a
website or put out information,
and say they're an authority.
Whereas before, you know, when getting back to
dress,
it used to be, you know, the man
with the turban
was a recognized,
scholar
because to wear the turban or to wear
a certain kind of clothing meant that they
spent their life studying
and they were recognized within their particular group,
by the clothing.
Whereas, now it seems like we put on
the clothing
to make, you
know, to make up for the lack of
scholarship.
I personally believe
most, if not all, conflicts
are not religious.
They are political. They are about power, about
land,
But then religion, whenever possible,
just like another instrument they can use, will
be used by the parties to
to gather support.
And let's not forget that the biggest wars
we had, especially in the last century, were
not religious wars.
One of the truisms that one hears about
Islam is that there is no separation between,
the politics
and the religion. Right? There's no separation between
religion and state.
Do you think I mean,
your just your own personal opinion
that we should
try to inject more religion into
politics? Do you think that
the separation
is a generally positive thing? And, of course,
I'm I'm asking you in your multiple identities
as Muslims and Americans.
That's a very difficult and very complex question.
More religion
and politics.
It depends on what your idea of religion
is because,
everyone
says,
you know, do you believe in Islamic government?
Do you not believe in Islamic government? What
is Islamic government?
And who do you ask? Who who are
the scholars that you follow who will determine
an Islamic government?
And
what falls under what's acceptable in an Islamic
government?
Non Muslims to live within that government,
with
different rules for them?
There's a danger of today allowing any one
religious group, sect,
political group to take over in the name
of religion,
and have all of the say over the
lives of every citizen
in that country.
So,
I don't know, I guess, I ideally, I
still believe that an Islamic
government is
possible
and should happen someday.
When that will happen is the big question.
I personally believe that it depends on the
circumstance. I mean, Islam
did start out kind of politically as well.
I mean, our prophet was also involved in
politics so it's not such a bad thing
to have religion with politics, but at the
same time, nowadays especially, we see these political
leaders using religion
to hurt others and I think that's very
wrong. So it depends on the circumstance.
I personally think,
Islam is is secular.
There is there is a very strong There's
another verse in the Quran that where
it's very clear you cannot impose
your religion,
your way of life on others.
Now the question of how much religion to
insert in the society, that's something that the
society decides. I mean, we
we insert more religion, say, in our society
than the Europeans have.
Does that mean we're not secular?
Not necessarily.
The religion cannot be
in Islamic tradition,
religion cannot be imposed on on those who
don't want it.
In fact, again, if you look at the
Ottoman period, for instance, it's very interesting.
Not only that they didn't
impose,
the religion on the minorities,
otherwise, a big chunk of the world today
would be speaking Turkish and would be Muslim.
But even,
say in Istanbul, say,
they would let
Armenian Orthodox
members
to have their own panel court. They would
let the Jewish
part of the society
to have their own rules and regulations.
So it was,
it was very
secular in that sense.
And you were subject to
the rules and regulations of of particular religion
if you chose to be a member of
that religion and and chose to be bound
by the rules of of that religion.
So from that perspective,
I believe
that Islam is is secular.
Yeah. I I don't think that any particular
political
arrangement
has been ordained in Islam.
So, you know, when we look at history,
we see a variety
of political,
appointments
in various Muslim places,
but it's not as if,
that is ordained by God.
We have
failure
of of political Islam in many cases,
but,
we also
can see that there is a history,
there is a lot of information
available about the prophet's
constitution
and his treaties and his political
governance
that we can glean information from
to apply it to our time now. But
it's just like any political experiment.
The American experiment
is not without flaws. I mean, we have
an election where, is it 30% of the
people are are voting in our elections? So,
I mean, this is not truly the voice
of the people,
and we have a prison system where
the most people in the world are incarcerated
in our prisons. So,
there are problems with our system. Let's let's
be realistic about all
the political systems of the world as not
we haven't found all of the answers we're
still seeking.
Thank you very much. And I want to
thank, all of our panelists,
Sakiba Khan, Lomina Kowalski,
Abdullah Yavas, and Jordan Lane. And thanks to
all of you a delightful, enjoyable conversation.
This has been a production of WPSU.