Ingrid Mattson – Diffused Congruence Podcast The American Muslim Experience
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Welcome to diffuse congruence. This is episode 34
of the American Muslim experience. My name is
Zachary Hasan, and with me me once again
is my co host, Pravez Ahmed. Hey. Welcome,
everyone. Thanks for joining us again. It's been
a minute. Very excited to have with us,
doctor Ingrid Mattson,
was educated in Canada and in the United
States,
earning her PhD from the University of Chicago
in 1999.
From 1998 to 2012,
she was professor of Islamic studies at the
Hartford Seminary,
where she also developed and directed the 1st
accredited graduate program for Muslim chaplains.
Really love to talk about that and served
as the director of the McDonald Center
for the Study of Islam and Christian Muslim
Relations.
Then,
from 2001 to 2010,
doctor Matson served as vice president
and then later as president of the Islamic
Society of North America, ISNA,
the first woman to serve in that position.
Her writings, both academic and public, focus primarily
on
Quran interpretation,
Islamic theological ethics,
and interfaith relations.
She's presently senior fellow of the Royal Adelaide
Institute of Islamic Thought in Amman, Jordan,
And,
we're really excited to have you join us,
professor Mattson. Welcome.
Thank you. Happy to be here.
Excellent. And you join us now. Presently, you
are
on faculty
at?
Huron University College in London, Ontario.
It's part of the, campus of, Western University
in London.
Correct.
So that is is that sort of a
return back to Canada? Because I I I
take it you're originally from Canada?
It is. It is. I lived
over 20 years in the United States,
and I still
I come, pretty much every month. So I'm
an Americanized,
Canadian,
you could say, but it's, it's a good
time to be back in Canada, frankly. You
wanna definitely get into some of that,
a little later. So, so so so tell
us a little bit about, your sort of
early childhood.
You're born and raised, I guess, spent your
early life in Canada.
What part of Canada?
Right. So I I,
grew up in Southern Ontario
in a place called Kitchener, Ontario, which, mostly
Sudanese know since, Lord Kitchener was the
the viceroy of of,
England.
And Sudan, a very unpleasant character.
So that's
kind of embarrassing
name
to have of my native city. That's true.
And, yeah, I grew up a big family,
had a wonderful childhood,
Catholic education,
elementary school, high school.
Then I went on to
study philosophy and fine arts at the University
of Waterloo.
All of that before I came to the
United States.
Correct. So,
was it while you were in your undergraduate
studies that you sort of first,
sort of, you know, Islam kinda comes across
your radar,
and and kinda piques your interest?
Yeah. Well, I was, I was raised Roman
Catholic,
subsequently
had no
religious identity or affiliation,
wasn't any kind of seeker, wasn't really interested.
I just kinda walked away from it and
didn't think about it anymore.
But then I met, some Muslims
from West Africa when I was studying in
France
during my undergraduate education.
They were, as far as I knew, the
first Muslims I met,
a lot of fun, beautiful, wonderful people.
Not,
you know, strictly observant,
but, just wonderful people. And they were the
because they were the first Muslims I met,
they really set the example for me of
a
of just
a a good ordinary
Muslim and I was interested in their
background,
their culture. I didn't know anything about it.
So that's when I started reading up, about
Islam.
And and does that sort of take you
or,
why you decide to sort of study it
beyond the undergraduate level? You know, I know
you do your master's and PhD in Islamic
studies
at the University of Chicago.
Well, what happened is,
to my surprise as I as I was
reading about Islam simply to learn more about
my friends Uh-huh. Who were from Senegal and
so I was also reading West African literature
and,
about their history and culture.
But when I started
reading,
what I learned was their
sacred book, the Quran,
I, to my surprise, found myself
really
having a very deep and compelling spiritual experience
where I was reconnecting with God through this
book. So
so I became a Muslim then
at the end of my undergraduate education, and
that really changed everything because
I had been all set to continue
with school.
Probably, I would have gone on to do
an art history degree.
Mhmm.
And,
but I became a muslim and,
started hearing a lot of strange things from
other muslims about what that meant now
You know, there's a kind of,
I call it bait and switch process where
when you're learning about Islam,
you're just given the the simple and the
easy and the beautiful stuff. And then once
you become a Muslim,
all of these different Muslims and Muslim groups
are trying to force their agenda, their ideology,
their school of thought on you. Right. And
it was not a very pleasant experience, but
I was
very fortunate that I went to, the University
of Toronto book store looking for some books
on Islam to make a bit of sense
on it. And I found,
Fazil Rahman's book,
Islam.
And,
I read it. I was blown away. Right.
And,
that was it. I said I have to
study with this man.
That's remarkable.
You know,
in the past, we've had
several several of our guests, in the past
mention doctor or some connection to doctor Fazil
Rahman.
Certainly, directly,
doctor Omer studying with him and doing his
PhD with him at the University of Chicago,
but also some of our other guests as
well. So,
I I think if anything, our listeners have
sort of taken away,
those who aren't familiar with or aren't haven't
haven't been introduced to the writings of professor,
professor Rahman. Hopefully,
they do so.
We don't the the strange thing, though, is
Yeah.
You know, I wrote him a letter. This
is, of course, in the days before the
Internet and email. Yeah. I wrote him a
letter saying I wanted to study with him.
He wrote me back. I still have that
letter. I have it right on my bookshelf
beside my desk at home.
He he wrote back to me inviting me
to come study with him. Beautiful. And,
it was just so exciting. But then,
I had a little
thing I had to do before going to
graduate school, which is, I had always wanted
to do some relief for development work. So
I went and I did that for 2
years
before I went to Chicago. In the meantime,
he had passed away.
So I arrived at Chicago,
without Fazir Rahman but surrounded by his students
and his legacy.
And that was a very important lesson for
me spiritually.
And also,
you know, I felt that although I felt
a little bit orphaned at that point,
I
looking back on it,
I think it was in many ways good
for me. And of course, he was a
great scholar who left
all of his books Right. As well as
his students and those who mentored him. So
we have that,
you know, access to that community of knowledge,
which is wonderful.
Right. Right. So so then you arrive in
Chicago. I so I just based on the
time frame, we're talking early eighties because I
think he passes away in 1981, I believe.
Right? No. No. No. No. Not that old.
Oh, okay. I arrived I arrived there in
1989,
and he had died the year before. Oh,
that's right. 88. I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Right. Right. Right. Right.
Right. So then you're there.
And and so by then, of course,
doctor Omer had already graduated. He was already
done.
Right. But doctor Omer was this,
he was kind of a mythical figure.
Everyone read his multivolume monumental,
doctoral dissertation.
Yeah. Sitting in the libraries to fight for
that.
And we talked about him all the time.
Everyone would be saying, well, where is he
now? What's he doing? How could we access
him?
And
it was
he was just such a topic of conversation.
We were so intrigued because he was clearly
such a genius.
And and his ideas were so compelling.
So,
a number of years later,
after I arrived at Chicago,
I had
the great pleasure
of being approached by some,
some people in Chicago who had met doctor
Ahmed
in Europe or in England and wanted
to
find a way to get him back to
America
and sponsor him,
through some kind of organization. And that was
the
development of the NAUI Foundation. So when I
heard his name and I was approached to
see if I wanted to support this effort,
I was I was simply overjoyed. And it
was such an honor to be able to
be involved with,
now we
and have that chance to spend time with
with doctor Olmeg for a number of years
in Chicago.
That's right. You you you served as you
you were on the board, of directors, I
believe, at Nowhere Foundation. That's correct. Yeah. Yeah.
That's right. And,
I I think a connection to Zaki,
is that his wife went on the trip
with you and doctor Amr and doctor Jackson
to China.
Yeah. 2002?
Yeah. Those were the best trips. I mean,
trips of,
they were extraordinary for all of us. We
had doctor Ahmed,
Sherman Jackson,
chef Abdel Hakim Murad, Timothy Winter was with
us on some of those trips. I don't
I don't remember if he was on the
China trip. Not China. But but,
china was just the 3 of you. Yeah,
right.
So, I mean, it's just such a blessed
company.
Right, you know for for all of us
because we we had
very often when I mean each one of
us when we go someplace to teach or
lecture is often
just just work and a kind of
teacher student relationship. But here, we were traveling
together,
as
scholars
and teachers.
Certainly, I wouldn't consider myself a peer of
doctor Ahmed.
So I had the chance to learn from
him as I was
teaching as well.
It's just a really blessed time.
Right. Right.
Yeah. I I'd love to talk to you
a little bit about that. But I I
think we're we're, going back to
your,
your your experiences at the University of Chicago.
You focus your research,
and writings on the Quran. I believe your
dissertation had to do with the Quran. Correct?
No. Actually actually, what it wasn't.
My dissertation was on slavery
and social status in early Islamic
society and law. That's So my my dissertation
is called a believer is better than an
unbeliever,
which is which is taken from the
Quran, versus the Quran.
Mhmm.
And I was looking at this issue of
slavery and social status and trying to
understand
why if if the Quran and the sunnah
were clearly in the direction,
you know, what what Fazl ar Rahman would
call, the the the kind of moral thrust
of the Quran and the Sunnah was in
the direction of equality and freedom,
human freedom.
Why did,
slavery continue to exist until,
19th century
in the Muslim world? And why
were many Muslim societies
plagued by
a hierarchical
kind of division
that affected
people's mobility and and really the idea of
human equality. So
I think, yeah, what I always advise people
who are going
to
undertake,
a doctoral study is that
the only way you can really get through
it because it's so grueling and so isolating,
it's
it's just such a difficult thing to do
is that you have to have a,
an issue that you just
need to solve. You know, you have a
question that is so compelling to you that
you cannot sleep or eat until you get
it until you
tackle this and you keep it just keeps
gnawing at you. And and for me, it
was that issue.
And so,
it was challenging but it was also satisfying
to be able to devote that amount of
time to that topic.
Yeah. So did you I mean,
what was the sort of resolution to that
in your in your mind in terms of
the way that, you know, you approach the
topic and then, you know, the, like, research
you explored?
Well, I'll tell you. I
I went into my study,
you know, really committing myself to honesty. I
said,
look, I have some core beliefs. I believe
in God. I believe the Quran is the
word of God. I believe that
Muhammad, peace be upon him, is the messenger
of God.
After that, I could accept
that anyone else could be infallible, you know,
is infallible. And that anyone else,
any other Muslim
can make a mistake and has made many
mistakes.
So I I I didn't
I think this is part of the advantage
of not growing up Muslim is I
hadn't,
I didn't have this this
kind of Muslim identity issue. Islam wasn't wasn't
an identity
to me. I didn't link my self esteem
or my
religious identity to the idea of a glorious
Islamic civilization.
You know, I just didn't have all that
baggage. So I think it made me able
to to really freely
and honestly look at Islamic
history,
in all of its beauty and ugliness
where it was. And
what
I mean, and I guess the the short
answer to what I discovered
is that,
and and I think I was guided in
this by by Michel Foucaud who I studied
also as an undergraduate
in my
studies of philosophy
Right. Is that it wasn't about,
you know, identifying
the person or a few people who had
who were evil or who created some kind
of
negative
energy
for for Islamic society to go off the
rails this way.
It wasn't as bad as I thought.
It was a question of understanding structures and
understanding
how there are unintended
consequences
of structures, but also
how knowledge really is related to power.
And,
it's important to understand that
the the scholarly class in Islamic civilization
were
were extraordinary people. I mean, in the end,
you find
you really admire their dedication.
But like all people, they
also have
interests
and they certainly had a corporate interest in
maintaining the scholarly class because really for them
and in their mind
and in reality, I think,
they were the only thing between
the ordinary people and tyranny. I mean, they
had this,
they had a kind of independence
that they were
political power is
political power
is responsible for some things and they're,
they can only be responsible for other things.
So, in terms of moral guidance, they were
extraordinary.
In terms of upholding the law, they, they
did uphold it on an individual basis,
but they had no ability
to address systemic problems.
And and something like slavery is a systemic
problem.
It can't be dealt with piecemeal. They were
constantly encouraging
the good treatment of slaves,
the liberation of slaves, their emancipation.
Their their judgments generally were very good and
really,
were in keeping with the spirit of
treating these people primarily as human beings who
had fallen into a,
this terrible state of slavery,
with the hope that, like every human being,
they would one day be free again. So
there wasn't this sense that there's a certain
class of people who should be slaves or
who are essentially
slaves. No. They were human beings.
Yeah. But they had they had no way
of addressing the systemic problem.
And,
even some of their solutions probably,
didn't make thing, you know,
didn't
help to move the system,
towards
a dismantling.
So it's quite complicated,
but it it shows us that,
you know, none none of these
none of these problems of human dignity can
be dealt with in a very simplistic way.
They're complicated and have many
angles, you know, economic, political.
Right. Right. I I I think yeah. I
mean,
there's so much, like, that you uncover there.
But, yeah,
the idea of,
you know, the this sort of scholarly class,
being the buffer, if you will,
between the ordinary people and the state,
you know, I think that might come as
a surprise to not only maybe our non
Muslim
audience and listeners, but also our Muslim listeners
because oftentimes,
you know,
the way we've constructed,
or or the way Islamic civilization is often
viewed is as this sort of, you know,
theocracy where the scholarly class and and the
state were in in in, you know, cahoots.
And and that's just it's Islamic history or
Muslim history just doesn't play out that way
where in fact the scholarly class really saw
themselves and maintain themselves,
you know, in control in in conscious opposition
to the state.
Well, unfortunately,
the situation changed during the maternity.
And that's why I mean, of course, we
all believe that this is the case because
this is how it's been for about
maybe less than 200 years, but certainly over
a 100 years
with the modern nation state. Correct.
And and people like,
Wa Al Hallaq
have,
have demonstrated this very clearly.
Mhmm.
Professor Wa'al Hallaq, was at Columbia,
professor of the history of Islamic law and
legal theory
Yeah. Has has done a lot of research
in this area and shows that that we
moved from,
you know, a pre modern,
pre modern empires
and sultanates
and and other forms of of territorial
authority
that were
quite
limited in their reach. I mean, they wanted
law and order, but their means of exerting
law and order were
pre modern, so limited.
But they also
for for them, what law and order meant
and what sharia meant in most cases was,
just maintaining peace among people and and the
local norms and the local traditions and the
means of resolving conflict
were the were the first choice. You know?
It wasn't this kind
of top down authoritarian
state. I mean, there was no such thing
as a ministry
of,
endowments and religious affairs. In fact, the endowments
for religious institutions and and educational institutions
were independent
and that that's what allowed their independence. It's
when they were nationalized by these modern nation
states
that
governments
took almost totalitarian
control,
of religion.
Right. Right. Exactly. Yeah. I I was I
was speaking more about the sort premodern era
like you mentioned.
But I think also kind of worth noting
perhaps,
that, you know, the institution of slavery
wasn't racialized
like it was in sort of the, you
know,
certainly the American context,
when we when we see slavery in in
in in Muslim history?
Well, there was I mean, certainly,
slavery wasn't
considered to be the
the,
divine state of some group of human beings.
Mhmm.
It was all human beings were considered to
be essentially free, which is why if there
was a foundling, for example, an abandoned baby,
their legal status was always free, never slave,
because freedom is the original status of any
human being no matter what their color is.
So,
slavery was,
you know, at least theoretically or conceptually was
the product of war.
War where you had, you know, far too
many
captives to do anything else with them,
unless they they all would be executed, which
is seem much less humane,
than taking them as captives.
Now,
you know, this is not to be apologetic
for slavery in any,
you know, by any means. It's just that
there weren't a lot of choices for pre
modern people, that we have more choices now
in warfare because we have the technology
to be able to detain and hold
a couple thousand people,
in one place and feed them and water
them and not have them,
you know, end up with cholera. You need
to take their sewage away.
Right.
But even now, we still have some problems.
I mean, there are a lot of people
who are detained or confined
in
semi
penal,
systems who are not being well maintained and
whose legal status is liminal because
it's always a challenge. Well, you know, what
do you do with the enemy when they
still wanna fight you? You know, who who
do you release them to? How do you
how do you release them without,
hurting yourself or having them just come back
and attack others? By the way, this is
one of the reasons why my favorite TV
show is The Walking Dead because they're precisely
dealing with this issue
in this season
about a determined enemy. And,
if you know they're coming back to get
you, what can you what can you do
with them? Do you kill them, or do
you
confine them?
What's moral in that situation? It's very difficult.
Well and can can you talk some more
about about, your own journey in terms of,
moving past your PhD into the Hartford Seminary?
What what,
took you there and and, what you got
out of that?
Well,
I,
as a graduate student, I was
always
in touch with,
you know, ordinary life, ordinary communities.
I had a family, I had children and
a husband, and so we wanted
to
be part of Muslim communities and life, to
have that religious life and
to enjoy
holidays and other things with them. So I
never was just sitting in the library, although
I spent a lot most of my time
there. Uh-huh. But I was in communities too.
And I knew
that while my dissertation research was really focused
on,
on a topic in,
you know,
legal theory and history
and and Islamic
history and society
that I always
my questions were always oriented towards how do
we
you know, in the background, how is this
how could this help us understand what we're
supposed to do today as Muslims?
So I'd always been interested
in living Muslim communities and been involved and
part of them.
So,
while I was finishing up my dissertation, I
I
I wasn't quite sure what I was going
to do. I I knew that I was
supposed to start applying for academic jobs.
I wasn't feeling that enthusiastic about it, but
I would have gone ahead
and done it
if I had not received a call. I
mean, literally a phone call from someone, a
friend of mine,
who I studied with at the University of
Chicago.
She's a well known professor of Islamic studies,
Marian Katz.
And she called me at that time. She
was teaching at Mount Mount Holyoke, I believe,
and said,
Ingrid, there's this job that I heard about
that I think you would be perfect for.
I know people in the search committee that
asked me if I knew anyone,
would you be interested in it? And then
she described this job at Hartford Seminary,
which I knew of only because of the
Muslim World Journal.
Hartford Seminary publishes
the oldest English language journal
dedicated to Islamic studies and Christian Muslim relations.
So I knew that name, but I didn't
know much else about it.
And they were looking for a Muslim professor
who would be involved
in
some form of
professional
religious
leadership
training and education for Muslims.
So it was,
I was curious
and, they said,
can you meet us next week? You know,
they're kind of at the end of their
search and, it seems they hadn't quite found
the person they wanted.
So I said, okay.
I went, met them, saw what they were
doing, and was really enthusiastic about it.
And that's how I arrived,
in Hartford, Connecticut,
with the mission to develop some kind of
religious
leadership program for Muslims.
Well and and in terms of of your
own journey now,
you've you've,
you you served as a president of ISNA
from 2,006 to 2010, and that was certainly
at a time where
the the profile
of anti Muslim
figures
had increased. Although, it it seems lower
then than it does now. I mean, now
it's it's almost become
acceptable and mainstream.
I would love to get your perspective
on
how things have changed in terms of how
Islam and Muslims are talked about and discussed
in the public sphere, which is something that
you were dealing with, you know,
on the front lines of, so to speak?
Yeah.
It I spent
10 years pretty much,
dealing with this issue. I
I was elected,
so I went to Hartford Seminary 1999
and then I was elected vice president of
ISNA in 2,001.
Started that,
took that responsibility,
a week before September 11th. Okay. I was
I was gonna ask what what yeah. So
what what I had thought was going to
be,
you know, a standard
kind of board position
of a Muslim
organization.
It's a volunteer position where I would be
going to, you
know,
be having a having a a meeting, a
board meeting once a month
and going to some activities
suddenly
became something else.
The
the demand for
Muslim voices,
for education on Islam,
both for Muslims and for non Muslims, was
so critical because on the one hand, we
had these
violent,
extremists
justifying their actions in the name of Islam,
which was very confusing
to many Muslims.
And on the other hand,
you know, there were
people who were already ideologically
hostile
to Muslims either for political reasons or religious
reasons or maybe just racial because Islam is
racialized. So, there were,
you know, white supremacists or others
who,
who saw this
as an opportunity
to,
really hammer
Muslims and Islam.
And,
you know, if that sounds
exaggerated,
it it isn't because I,
you know, right away, I was reading
their newsletters,
publications. I remember getting
I must have been maybe because I was
had a subscription to something like The Nation
or Mother Jones or something like that. I
remember getting
letters,
solicitation letters for membership from,
atheist organizations saying,
this is the time now
to attack Islam because of truth and we
can really show how terrible religion is. Wow.
Yeah. So
that has only increased. And, unfortunately,
we have this,
you know, what it what is very clearly
a mirroring process where the extremists on both
sides simply
reflect each other and reflect each other's violence
and bigotry
and and xenophobia
and,
are looking for political and military ways
of hurting,
the other side.
So it's been,
you know, it's just it's very disheartening,
to see this. And and we we're living
in such a violent time and such a
time of vulgarity
and
meanness and deliberate misinformation and misunderstanding.
And the thing that has made this so
much worse
is that
really,
the the
the rise in the Internet
and the widespread,
availability
of the Internet
coincided with this.
Right.
So before where someone,
you know, the only the only place they
may have learned about Islam or heard about
Islam is you they might get a little
snippet of the news,
and read about it and feel confused. And
if they were really motivated, maybe they'd go
to the public library and look up something.
Now all they have to do is open
their computer,
Google it, and they would see all of
these Islamophobic,
all these Islamophobic websites would come up with
misinformation.
And,
so it is just it is very difficult
to crack
into,
you know, that
that Islamophobic
tangled web of misinformation.
At the same time, there's the other tangled
web
of, violent extremist
misinformation about Islam. That's right. So it it's
it it means that,
you know, there's no one naive anymore. There
are no one naive
counters.
When I first started public speaking in the
late nineties,
I would go to a church group or
a community group, and
they might have some impression of Islamic Muslims,
maybe vaguely negative
if they were aware of Middle East politics,
maybe somewhat positive if they had a neighbor
or someone they worked with who was a
nice Muslim.
But they were open to learning or listening.
By the mid 2000, that was completely it
was a completely different dynamic.
You know, I I would speak to I'd
be invited to speak to a group
And immediately,
you know, in the question period, people would
be asking
you know, throwing out all these terms. Well,
what about she had?
What about and, of course, talquia.
How do how could we trust you? We
know that Muslims are supposed to lie about
their religion.
They would say, so I can't even trust
what you're saying.
Or they would say, well, you seem like
a nice person, but it must be because,
you know, you're you're a westerner or
you're not really like the rest of Muslims.
So the dynamic is completely different. Right. Well
and to that to that point, I mean,
there there are prob there might be people
listening here who don't understand what takih is
or who who've heard it and don't have
a context for it, maybe this is a
good time to explain what that is exactly.
Right. So it what it what it means
is dissimulation
or or kind of hiding something.
And
it is it's,
the the Islamophobes have made it into some
kind of article of faith of Islam, which
it is not whatsoever.
Muslims are required by the Quran to be
honest, to be trustworthy. The prophet Mohammed said
that,
a believer cannot be a liar.
So, lying is absolutely forbidden.
Breaking your oath is are forbidden. All of
these things. This is a very strong, strong
principle
that pervades the Quran and the sunnah.
There it is true, however, that if someone
is,
being if their faith is, if their life
is under threat,
if they are subject to torture,
persecution
that they that they cannot bear, that they,
that they could conceal their religion. So, this
came out
of the time,
when early Muslims were being persecuted. And, in
particular, the the verse of the Quran that
that talks about the person who who is
not held accountable for denouncing their faith
if they're tort if they're under duress is
is a young man,
Amar,
who was tortured along with his parents,
Yasser and Sumayyah in Mecca,
for being Muslim. And they were they were
slaves. His parents were slaves. And the 3
of them were tortured.
His mother was sexually violated,
in the torture
and killed. So they were both murdered
in front of his eyes.
And so he as a young man then
said, okay, I'll say whatever you want me
to say.
He felt very bad. He felt that he,
when they let him go after after this,
he felt that he had lost his soul.
And when he came to the prophet Muhammad
devastated the prophet Muhammad's,
who had no way of protecting him at
this
time. He had no means of protection. He
had no political authority.
Said to him,
if if they come for you again, say
the same thing.
Meaning that you're not supposed to,
you know, you don't have to,
allow yourself to be tortured to death,
when God knows what's in your heart. And
then Muslims use this,
exemption
again during the time of the inquisition
after the Reconquista
of Ferdinand and Isabella in Spain.
And they were
persecuting and torturing,
people who had
Muslim and Jewish backgrounds, by the way,
trying to see if they were true
Christians or true Catholics
and,
because you had to either be Catholic
or leave. And many people didn't wanna leave
their home, and they were hoping that
that somehow they would be allowed religious freedom
again in the future.
So they went along and pretended they were
Catholic, but they were subject to the inquisition
and many were tortured, of course, to death
and burnt to death.
But this was
brought in as an exemption and that really
set the theme in,
you know,
the
Catholic Spain of Ferdinand and Isabella is the
first many scholars would say the first fascist
state, the first fascist modern nation state. Wow.
And it was this
totalitarian controlling state.
But it set also the tone
for premodern Europe of of what a Muslim
is. So it was really this idea that
Muslims are are sneaky people
who they pretend to be,
you know, they tend to be good Christians,
but they're really Muslims underneath.
And,
so if we look historically, we we see
that idea of the
of the,
deceptive Muslim continuing.
And, by the way, also the deceptive Jew.
So this is a very common trope of
antisemitism,
European antisemitism,
is that the Jew is
is hiding his true intentions,
that he's plotting to, you know, overthrow Western
civilization
or or Christian civilization,
etcetera. So so Muslims and Jews have shared
this,
have shared this
this idea
of being,
untrustworthy,
in the, antisemitic
and semophobic
rhetoric of of, European civilization.
Well, and, I mean, in in terms of
your own experience,
you know, the the 10 years that that
you were,
do doing this work with ISNA, I mean,
from from what you're describing, it was
a disheartening experience. Is it would that be
an accurate,
description?
Certainly, it was disheartening
in that way.
On the other hand, there were wonderful,
great,
tremendous things that happened. And
we have to remember that that the holy
Quran says maybe you hate something and it's
good for you. Sure. So in the sense
that this is tremendously
hard, but it also
it also brought the best out in the
best people. And and I saw that among
Muslims
and among
people of other faiths and no faith. So
we saw,
that
as as this was happening,
1st and foremost, and this is important,
that Muslims,
ordinary Muslims, were standing up for true Islam,
true voice of Islam against the extremists.
So I was just flooded with requests from
ordinary Muslims and communities for education.
I had this influx of students at Hartford
Seminary
of ordinary Muslims, some retired Muslims who came
out of retirement,
Or women who up until that time?
Were not,
we're we're you know, just in the mosque
serving some, you know, tea and biryani
or, you know, on on on potluck nights
who said, I can no longer let these
extremists speak for me. I need to learn
more about my religion.
And they came and they did degrees and
they studied and then they went out and
they,
you know, developed a strong voice. And all
over America, we saw that, you know, with
things like, ING, the Islamic Networks Group, which
is a wonderful
speakers
bureau organization.
They saw this huge increase in demand among
Muslims
to to learn more about Islam and be
able to articulate, 1st and foremost, to themselves,
to their families, to their communities,
what is the true message that is pluralistic,
that it is supportive of democracy,
loyalty, all of these things. So to me,
you know, it, it, it, it,
stimulated this incredible,
growth,
intellectual maturity, spiritual maturity,
and a sense of responsibility among American Muslims
that, you know, no one else is gonna
is going to do this for us. We
need to get a grip and articulate
our own vision of Islam
and establish institutions that are gonna reflect those
values. So we also saw this tremendous growth
in new kinds of Islamic organizations
from,
you know, doing social justice and free
medical free clinics and
all of these,
all of these efforts that were just really
that show what Islam is really about.
And at the
same
time again and again and again we saw,
leaders of the jewish community
of the,
of different Christian denominations,
of,
you know, secular people,
in in civil rights
organizations and social justice organizations stand up and
say we wanna be partners with you in
this good work.
We want to amplify
your message. We want to be,
loud speakers for you to our communities and
our religious congregations
about what Islam is and what Muslims are
because we don't want, you know, we don't
want our people
to,
be be by,
biased and bigoted towards Muslims.
And so that gives me tremendous
encouragement.
I think we're far better
than we ever were before in terms of
our own knowledge,
our
maturity
in taking responsibility
for our community
and in having really principled partnerships
with our allies. So it's not only about
us,
but,
you know, the Quran says is
a reward for goodness other than goodness. And
so Muslims,
are also reciprocating,
advocating for the rights of other people,
not just for their own rights in this
context. So all of that
is tremendously,
encouraging
and is the lesson for us about, the
good that can come out of a bad
situation.
Right. Right.
I agree. And I think
yeah. I mean,
to have you
sort of see that from the vantage point
of your leadership role at ISNA,
because, I mean, really, if you look at
the time period there, I mean, that's really
where you see, like you said, the sort
of expansive,
nature of Muslim community
or of the Muslim communities are responding to,
but at the same time going well beyond,
you know, what was happening, you know, post
911. So,
I think it's I think it's very, very
fascinating.
If I could maybe
shift the discussion a little bit, in the
time that we have left,
to sort of maybe within the Muslim community
and going back perhaps a little bit to
your work,
at Hartford at at the Hartford Seminary,
with regards to the chaplaincy program.
You know, I'd love for you to sort
of comment on what you
see as the needs that we have as
a Muslim community in terms of, like
because, I mean, you know, it's one thing
to have a qualified imam per se who
is say, you know, a scholar a scholar
in
in his or her own right,
you know, has the requisite training in scripture
and so on,
but
not having this sort of training and background
in pastoral care,
which,
you know, when I think of the chaplaincy
program, that's really what I what what I
think of.
So I'd love for you to sort of
talk about that a little bit in terms
of the needs of the Muslim community in
having leadership who is not only trained academically,
in in, you know, as a scholar or
in the Islamic sciences, but also really, you
know, this need to to to to to
be able to deliver pastoral care to to
to the growing community?
This is
such an urgent need. It's not only pastoral
care. It's individual
counseling.
It is
care for
people where they are in society,
whether that's
in the mosque, in a hospital, in a
prison, on the streets,
or confined to their home.
What is the point of community? I mean,
I really think we need to step back
and say, what is a jama'ah? What is
a congregation?
What does it mean? Why do we even
come together for community?
Of course, we need to
find some place where we can get together
to pray,
in congregation.
Alright. Check. We have that.
We need to learn
what is necessary for a religion.
But in the end,
you know, this is we have to
I think it it would be helpful for
American Muslims to think, and and really Muslims
globally, to think again
about,
the kind of congruence between political
systems
and social systems.
So because political systems in the Muslim world
in in the modern age have become so
top down
and
centralized. Yeah. Right? And we we took this
so we adopted this top down centralized model
for our religious communities. So true. That's not
a natural way of of of living and
of being together.
The the what we need to do is
to strengthen,
is to give support
to the natural
relationships that exist in society. And that means,
it means couples,
it means parents and children, it means extended
family, it means neighbors.
And to strengthen those systems
and then find the gaps
and have ways to serve the people who
are in the gaps.
Like for example,
you know,
we have this very
strange idea where we think that giving a
lecture
is the solution to every problem.
Right?
Like, if you're okay.
If your problem is loneliness,
if your problem is that you have no
one
to eat dinner with
or you wake up on Eid
and you live alone
and you go to pray a prayer and
there's
everyone's with their family and you have no
one to celebrate with,
your your problem is not lack of knowledge,
lack of information,
lack of encouragement.
It's lack of people in your life. It's
it's lack of connection.
And so
we need
to
really shift our focus
to connecting people and supporting people.
And that can only be done with people,
not with buildings, not with, you know, with
all due respect,
knowledge, I'm a scholar, knowledge is important. Right.
But
proportionally,
what are the number of
institutes and lectures and, you know, knowledge retreats
that we need compared to,
human resources for counseling
support
and presence. You know, it's really about being
present with people as they go through the
challenges
of life. We do not have enough people.
I mean, many
Muslims just think they don't think of it
if they have their own family. If they
have their own family and circle of friends,
they don't feel that absence.
But,
we live
it's not, you know, it's not only converts.
It's not only people are divorced or single,
but we live in an incredibly mobile society.
Most Americans are going to move
half a dozen times at least in their
life for work, for school,
for all sorts of reasons,
and they're gonna be disconnected.
You know, they're not gonna be living in
that neighborhood that they grew up in,
for the rest of their life.
So
who's the person
and and how what are the systems
for,
supporting them and checking in on them? It
can't be,
you know, just some kind of dropbox.
The imams of the mosque, they only have
a certain amount of time,
and the needs are not all in the
mosque. I mean, what do you do, for
example,
about the the for example, I had a
friend,
one of the places I lived who had
2,
severely autistic children in the home.
She could never really bring them out to
Islamic events because
there wasn't a tolerance for,
you know, the behaviors that were natural to
them. She's extremely isolated at home.
Why would we not have something like
a visiting,
a chaplain corps? You know, home based, home
chaplains like we have visiting nurses or home
nurses
who go around and visit and spend time
with and even pray with
people who are
in their homes and can't get out to
the community. And there are so many of
them. It's,
I mean, I think most people would be
shocked if they,
actually
undertook the effort of trying to
calculate
end to end and,
find these kinds of people.
Right. Right. And
yeah, I mean, you bring up so much.
But, I mean, if I could just like,
the,
the kind of spirit, you know, the the
kind of spiritual bypassing,
right, that you kind of mentioned, which is,
like, oh, you know, the cure for loneliness
or depression is
more knowledge or just come and, you know,
or or or, you know, pray pray this
or fast, you know, and and that should
take care of, like, real human needs that
people have. Right?
And I think that that the the propensity
to do that, I think, is informed by
this,
you know, by by the fact that, unfortunately,
we have people who aren't
trained in, like, use like, in counseling and
being present with people and
and and really addressing the needs of, of
of of of a community
certainly, you know, in in modern America as
it were, with the challenges that we confront.
Yeah. It's it's not only that. It's that,
I I I mean, I have a lot
of sympathy for imams. Yeah. They are Of
course. They're overworked,
underpaid,
disrespected,
subject to completely arbitrary rules that change every
time there's a new board election.
Yes. So it really is the creative fault
when they don't have,
you know, when there's a mismatch here. But
many many imams,
some Imams really are pastoral people and this
is their gift. It is connecting people.
Many Imams of our mosque, however, are really
wanna be scholars.
So they're good they're good at scholarship. They're
good at teaching.
They actually don't have the gift
of pastoral care. Yeah. And,
you know, it's interesting because there's
many of the people who have a deep
gift in that are are not only men,
but women. You know, it seems to be
something that maybe women because in their
sort of stages of life often have to
really
pay pay very close attention
to the human needs of of others
that they
might
kind of naturally develop this gift. And
here I see a
wonderful opportunity
for, bringing in the
the,
you know,
the the gifts of service of Muslim women
create more into our community,
to bring I I I've said for a
long time that every Islamic center
should have a female chaplain,
a female
spiritual caregiver.
That would also not only would that bring
that presence
into the mosque, but also it would,
it would help with this problem we have
of of what,
sheikh Hazzena Bensari calls blurred lines. You know,
we we do have an issue where,
some religious
some of these people in charge
do not know their professional boundaries,
and they're crossing the line when it comes
to,
interacting with women. So if we had female,
chaplains
trained,
in the community,
even even in the mosque and able to
go not just stay in the Masjid or
the Islamic Center, but to go out to
the community from that. I think that would
do a great deal
to to prevent
some of the problems that are happening because
there would be that
that additional
professional,
to whom,
the community is accountable.
Right. And and to go back to your
point about, like, sort of the kind of
centralization
model that has been adopted by, you know,
by a lot of by a lot of
the communities,
you know, that that I think not only
has to do with leadership,
but also,
has to do with the fact that, you
know,
that we can't have spaces beyond just the
mosque or the Islamic Center. And I think
kind of one of the things that we're
seeing of late is
the development of so called third spaces, right,
that we see in our communities where,
you know, that aren't sacred, like mosque spaces,
but at the same time are are places
where our community,
members of our community can come together and,
break bread, can just, you know, share a
sense of community
that are outside of the mosque.
I I mean, I I think there's an
advantage, but they're not a magic bullet because
they also
need to be subject to the same
scrutiny and oversight.
Oh, yeah. Unfortunately, some of these places,
really become,
you know, there's sort of
places where,
again, we fall into the same trap of,
one person, one man,
no oversight, no supervision, no accountability,
or the appeal of charismatic
authority.
Mhmm.
And that's the problem. I mean, I don't
think it's the spaces.
Really,
the the the the mosques,
you know, the mosques should be places where
this can happen but we can also socialize
anywhere. We don't need a separate space. You
could, you know, rent a
table at the library or, I don't know,
just hang out in a restaurant.
I'm really talking more
about the the relationships.
So it's the people.
And wherever the people,
you
know,
wherever they're based,
it doesn't really matter. They they could be
they could be home based, but the question
is not just sitting somewhere waiting for someone
to come to you, but you going out
to them.
Yeah. But but
with
accountability and supervision
because we're talking about human people's vulnerability.
Yeah.
And
as we know that that predators or people
who are are going to exploit,
you know, there are always people who are
gonna exploit vulnerabilities,
and they flourish
in an environment where there isn't accountability
and supervision.
So I'm less concerned about the spaces than
about the relationships.
Increasing the relationships, increasing the professionalization
of the people who offer services
and,
but making sure that there is
accountability
and oversight
for that.
Yeah. Absolutely. No. Yeah. I I think it's
a it's a wonderful point.
So, I guess then,
you transitioned out of your role at the
Hartford Seminary,
and now you're
back in Canada.
Are you focusing more on research,
still involved in some capacity,
with the, chat with the a chaplaincy program?
Well, I,
here this is a new chair in Islamic
studies that I took.
Again, subhanAllah.
I'm really blessed. I feel that god's
always
directing me because I I tend to be
a rather careless person
and completely lacking in ambition, so I never
think about the next step. So literally, again,
I got a phone call saying,
we have this new chair,
and we think you'd be good for it.
Would you please come
Would you please put in an application?
And,
so I I wasn't looking to go anywhere,
but I I I felt a a certain
sense of responsibility
both to my home country,
to my extended family,
from you know, I I'd only been a
visitor
for so many years.
But I am so Americanized too, so it
was difficult. But I'm I'm only an hour
from the border.
So Right. So I'm I'm I'm here in
Canada, but I'm I'm in the United States
at least once a month if not more.
So I'm I really am binational,
I think.
But I I wanted to see
also
how Islam is being lived here.
And and
when you live in America,
it's so easy to forget that there are
other countries in the world,
that may do things a little bit differently.
And and it is different here.
Canada is kind of
somewhere between the American and the European model.
Yeah. So there are some things that are
much easier
here when it comes to being a Muslim
and some things that are
that are somewhat more challenging,
or need to be done differently. And I
like
I have a,
a bit of an entrepreneurial
personality. I like to take on new things
and and try to figure out,
some new models or methods
or avenues
for,
for knowledge and learning and and connection.
And so I'm enjoying that, and I'm thinking
deeply about what it means to be a
human being
in the world today, what it means to
be a believer and a member of a
religious community
when we are in a time of
of great mobility,
with no end in sight. I mean, I
think we've simply shifted
into a new era in human history,
not only post national, but
I would say the era
of mobility.
So what does that mean in terms of
of loyalty
and of responsibility
to the place where you are for that
time.
You know, I used to think about this
As a canadian in America was I
was I supposed to suddenly become really super
excited about a flag? That that wasn't my
you
know, that didn't make me excited. What did
make me excited were my neighbors
and the institutions and the people around me
who,
I I worked with. So I felt this
deep sense of loyalty. And wherever I go,
I I I find
myself
being deeply loyal to the people around me,
trying to understand
their customs and norms and to find the
way to continue to be myself
yet also,
adjust what I do to help
to help smooth the,
you know, the the gears of of society
of just
helping to create a society where people feel
a sense of harmony.
And so what does that mean for
this idea
of religious identity and national identity?
So that's really what I've been working on,
the idea of belonging.
And,
my
tentative conclusion is we really have to go
back
to the understanding
that that Islam is a deeply embodied religion.
Meaning that rather than living in our heads
or some kind of ideal concept
of identity,
we have to focus back to where our
feet are. And after all, anytime we go
someplace, the first thing we have to do
is figure out
where we are in the world. Right? Where's
the direction of of Mecca?
Where's the Qibla?
So we have to know where we are
and then we have to get water to
wash ourselves. So what's our water source? It
has to be pure. Do we know where
we're getting our water from?
So this idea of
of being really grounded where we are at
the time
and from our body
reaching out
and understanding
the ethical responsibility
of everything we touch, everyone we touch, everything
everyone we impact whether that's the the trash
that we throw out
or,
you know, what we put on our lawns
or
how we greet people on the street, whether
we're making them comfortable or uncomfortable,
whether we're contributing to a happy
society or or adding to the misery of
people.
I think that it's
we need a much more natural understanding
of belonging, and I think it's perfectly in
accord with the Quranic message and what the
prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him,
embodied in his life, which was
Which was presence he was so focused
on where he was and who was
around him and what they needed.
That's beautiful.
And I think that's a great place to
leave this conversation. I think, you you wrapped
up so much of what we're talking about
in
in, those words that you just said. So
thank you for that. Right.
I also, doctor Matson, I wanted to, just
on a personal level, you know, the,
your article in the study Quran, you know,
and sort of commend you on that, on
how to read the Quran. I think it
was a wonderful introduction. I often recommend it
to not only other Muslims, but just my
fellow non
Muslim sort of coworkers and and, you know,
people in the in in the community wanna
learn about the Quran in general. I I
feel like it's a wonderful starting point for
people.
Oh, I'm glad it was helpful. It was
a it's an honor to be included in
in that effort. It's,
a wonderful effort. It's a great resource.
I I'm looking forward to the 2nd edition
when they when they take my advice
for some changes.
Right. Okay. Right. Right. Hopefully, they'll keep the
essay.
It's certainly been not with that controversy. But
as these things go, it's it's it's it's
kind of interesting, actually. We we, we we
had professor Lombard on the show, and then,
you know, who obviously we went into quite
great length in terms of how that whole
how the whole project came about. And then,
like, as I mentioned earlier, the episode with
doctor Omar,
doctor Omar had nothing but wonderful praise for
it. But, you know, as these things go
in our community, you know, people have different
reactions. But I think that,
yeah, I'm I I too like yourself. I'm
looking forward to the next edition, see what
see how that changes things.
Yeah. But I am using this edition for
my for my, class now, my current class
as this.
This is the reference, and they're finding it
really helpful. I I agree. Yeah.
Well, it's been great speaking with you. Likewise.
And so,
before we leave, where can people find you
online, doctor Matson?
Your writings, I know you're on Twitter, if
you don't mind sharing that. I I I
I I love following you on Twitter.
Yeah. My website is ingridmatson.org.
Very easy. Ingridmattson
dotorg.
And,
I think that's my Twitter handle too.
Okay. Great.
And, Zeki, where can people find us and,
leave us feedback?
Well, you can go to our Facebook page,
facebook.com/diffusecongruence,
and, leave us any comments there. You can
also email us at [email protected],
and, of course, go to Itunes, go to
Stitcher Radio, go to TuneIn Radio. Leave a
comment. Leave a star rating. Let us know
how we're doing. Let us know, your thoughts
on either this episode or previous ones, and
we will be sure to share those on
upcoming episodes.
But with that, it's a good place that
I need to wrap things up. So on
behalf
of Pravez Ahmed and our guest doctor in
your meeting, my name is Zaki Hassan. This
has been diffuse congruence. Thank you for listening.