Ingrid Mattson – A Conversation
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AI: Transcript ©
What does it mean to be Muslim in
America? We'll talk with the president of the
Islamic Society of North America who says, American
Muslims in particular,
have an enormous responsibility
to live as exemplary Muslims and to demythologize
Islam to the American public. Hello, and welcome
to Penn State Public Broadcasting's
Common Ground Lobby Talk, which is produced in
collaboration
with Penn State's Institute For the Arts and
Humanities. I'm Patty Satalia.
This is an open forum and we invite
dialogue between our special guest and our live
audience. Let's begin with an introduction. Doctor Ingrid
Monson is the first woman president of the
Islamic Society of North America,
the post she was elected to in August
of 2006.
Raised Catholic in Canada, she converted to Islam
at the end of her undergraduate studies, then
traveled to Pakistan where she worked with Afghan
refugees.
In 1999,
she earned her PhD in Islamic Studies from
the University of Chicago and is now director
of the Islamic Chaplaincy Program
and professor at the McDonald Center For Islamic
Studies and Christian Muslim Relations at the Hartford
Seminary in Connecticut. Thanks so much for joining
us. Thank you.
You converted,
from,
the Roman Catholic religion to Islam in your
senior year in college.
Converts are are typically very passionate and it's
something that is very very perplexing to many
of us.
Why did you convert? How did you become
Muslim?
Well, I think it's important to say that
when I became a Muslim, when I encountered
Islam, at that point, I was
an atheist or agnostic or maybe just simply
indifferent,
not someone who was interested in religion or
even had God in my life in any
way. I had left the Catholic church,
left faith behind as a teenager,
and, never really looked back.
So, for me, when I encountered Islam,
and embraced it, it was the way for
me to bring God back into my life,
and and I did so because of the
the power of the Quran and reading that
and and what it said to me about
my place
in this creation.
But you did describe yourself as a pious
child and and it was,
a trip to,
to Paris and then to Afghanistan to work
with, Afghan refugees
where something happened. What was it that enhanced
your vision of Islam?
Well,
I first met Muslims,
as far as I know, when I studied
in Paris one summer,
where I grew up in Canada. I don't
think I knew any Muslims or even heard
anything about Islam. So I was very fortunate
that the first Muslims I met were,
students from West Africa, mostly from Senegal,
who were, just remarkable human beings, very dignified
in the midst of great prejudice that they
suffered in Parisian society. I mean, very
overt prejudice and racism,
but they had a dignity and a generosity
of spirit
that really impressed me and that made me
want to know more about them and their
background.
Since then, I've realized that they come from
a
strong West African tradition of, Islamic Sufism, which
emphasizes
a kind of openness to others and
the importance of living,
spiritually in everyday life.
And, they certainly did that and that really
opened my heart.
Interestingly enough, there are actually 2 converts in
your family. You're one of 7 and you
have an older sister who converted to
Judaism.
Tell us a little bit about that and
what the reaction was in your household to
this. Right. I guess, my family really does
have a bit of a different experience than
most Canadian or American families, although
as as our society changes and integrates, I
think this is becoming more common.
My sister is, significantly older than I am
and,
she met a Jewish man and fell in
love and, wanted to marry him, and for
the sake of the family and their future
children decided that for her to embrace Judaism
would be the best thing.
I think that may be one of the
reasons why my family was a little bit
confused when I chose to become a Muslim,
because it no man was involved.
It was,
my own choice,
as a spiritual choice
and that,
surprised them because I wasn't someone who seemed
to be looking for a religion, so it
kind of hit them out of the blue.
And not knowing any Muslims or anything about
Islam, they were concerned. They didn't know what
this would mean for my life, so it
took a little bit of time
for them to be able to be comfortable
with it, realizing that it was something that,
that I could live and and and have
a good life with.
Help Help us understand this. You have a
doctorate in Islamic studies and the 2 largest
religions in the world, of course, are Christianity
and Islam. Both of which have divided. The
Roman Catholic church broke into,
various denominations and,
Mohammed left no specific instructions
about who should take over,
and and lead the,
Islam. And the result was that that split
into 2 distinct groups, the Sunnis and the
Shiites. What's the difference between the two and
does the Islamic Society of North America embrace
both groups? Right. Well, the major difference between
Sunnis and Shiites,
is a theological difference based on
the idea of succession to the prophet Muhammad
and specifically
who is authorized
to,
interpret,
the Quran and and the
Islamic principles authoritatively.
Shiites believe that that authority was passed down
to specific individuals in, in the prophet's
family, whereas Sunnis believed that it's the collective
responsibility of the community
to struggle with these texts and precepts
and come up with, their,
their own conclusion.
The Islamic Society of North America is open
to all Muslims.
Demographically, we are a majority Sunni,
but, we have Shiite members and there's no,
there's no criteria
for sectarian
exclusionary criteria for our organization. In fact, we
had a Shiite
president,
when in our first,
manifestation as a Muslim Students Association.
What's the relationship between the Islamic Society of
North America
and Middle Eastern Muslims?
The relationship is only one of,
emotional ties as
part of the global Muslim community,
but also,
we have developed
primarily out of the experience of immigrant Muslims
who came
to study in the United States,
found themselves
wanting to have some sense of community as
Muslims in what to them was a foreign
land,
formed the Muslim Students Association of Canada in
the United States,
thinking that eventually they would go back to
their homes. Some of them did, but many
stayed,
had families. Their children didn't want to go
back to Egypt or Pakistan or wherever they
came from.
They realized that this was now their home,
and then, developed, the Islamic Society of North
America as the next step, as the kind
of fully adult
organization that would represent all Muslims.
And now our membership includes,
primarily people who were born in this country,
whether they're from a,
Caucasian or African American,
community or second generation Muslims whose parents immigrated,
but they themselves were born here. The organization
itself was established back in 1963 and today
you can count some 20,000
people among, its members.
What's the purpose or the mission of the
Islamic Society of North America?
Our mission is to be a a a
common platform
for the diversity of Muslims in North America,
and that includes individuals and organizations and communities.
So, in fact, our umbrella
embraces even more than those 20,000 individual members,
thousands more who are represented in the over
300
mosques and Islamic centers that are affiliated with
our organization,
as well as professional organizations like the Islamic
Medical Association
that are part of our, of our membership
body.
Muslims in North America are highly diverse
in terms of their outlook,
background,
every in every,
aspect of demography that you could imagine.
And what we seek to do is certainly
provide guidance on some issues,
but more than that, to provide a common
platform
discussion, for dialogue,
to engage,
all the different aspects of this community so
that we can,
come to, if not agreement, at least come
to know each other
and and work for some common goals.
You were the vice president of the Islamic
Society of North America 5 years prior to
be, being elected in August of 2,006
as president.
Many people look at this as maybe the
starting point of something bigger, that the significance
is not only that you're a woman, a
woman, but also that you're a nonimmigrant. What
do you believe is the significance of your
appointment?
Well,
certainly,
we're at the stage in our development as
Muslims in North America where our leadership should
reflect
who we are,
as a community,
And it's natural that
that by now this organization should have someone
who's a native English speaker, for example, And
this is not to, in any way, belittle
the, contributions of all those who served ahead
of me. They did a wonderful job and
and built up this organization.
But like every other Muslim community in the
world,
we should be having institutions
and leadership that is,
homegrown
and that is really embedded and and relevant,
to the society. So that's what I see
as primarily important.
Certainly being a female is something that has
gotten a lot of attention,
and I think what's the most interesting thing
is the fact,
that it was such a non issue for
our members.
That,
it seems that it was a very natural,
development to them that having served my two
terms as vice president,
I would now,
have the opportunity to serve as president. So
I think for many of us, that was
more surprising than anything, the fact that there
wasn't a lot of discussion about it. There
are some, though, and I think it's a
minority, who are opposed to a woman leading
this organization.
And, in fact, there are some who use
this saying which is ascribed to the prophet
Muhammad which translates roughly to whenever God wants
the destruction of a people, he makes a
woman their leader.
How do you respond to that?
Well, certainly, there are,
those people who believe that that Muslim women
shouldn't have public roles.
And, the question is, what is their proof
for that?
There are many, many sayings that are attributed
to the prophet Mohammed and Muslim scholars have
always,
looked at those and tried to sort which
are authentic and which are fabricated.
Many of them were fabricated for political purposes
or,
people who wanted to support their position. And
that's what we have to look at when
we see, in fact,
and we weigh any particular saying against all
the other things the prophet Mohammed said, what
he did, and also the the message of
the Quran, which is clearly,
states that,
Muslim women can contribute to the same
level and in the same way as Muslim
men. We see that that women had public
roles during the lifetime of the prophet Muhammad,
and his immediate successors
followed women who were in leadership positions.
So when we look at the preponderance of
evidence,
I think we have to,
give these other
reports that Are you saying that that particular
saying can't justifiably
be attributed to him?
Well, this is a question of Hadith scholarship,
and, I would defer that to those who
are have more,
who are specialists in that area, but there
has been a lot of discussion about that
statement,
and whether it in fact violates
many other,
clear Quranic statements about gender equality as well
as other statements attributed to the prophet Muhammad.
In your role as the president of the
Islamic Society of North America, you say you
have detect what you would call Muslim fatigue
among North America's
Americans and in fact you say, the sense
I have from Americans is that they don't
wanna hear Muslim Muslims talking about Islam anymore.
They just want us to do something to
stop causing all these problems in their lives.
And I'm wondering, is this the,
the challenge for you as president,
and how you're going what you're going to
do to make Islam better understood among Americans.
I think the first challenge is to show
that Muslims are like other people
in that,
we have our good guys and our bad
guys.
There are
criminals in Muslim societies,
just as there are
criminals in Christian societies. The United States has
around 2,000,000 people in jail, probably most of
them Christian.
So we don't judge
people and
a civilization
and a religious community by the worst of
them. And I think that's the real challenge
because Americans are naturally interested in the ways
that
Islam is impacting their lives. And the reality
is that there were,
people and there have been people who have
used Islam to justify
violence and terrorism
and,
in particular,
the terrorist acts of 911.
That's the reality, so
Americans are going to be first and foremost
interested in that,
And they want Muslims to do something about
it.
We would love to do something about it,
but what kind of role do we have?
We have our voice.
We have our writing,
we have our example,
but we are not
ultimately in control of these people who are
doing these things. And I think it's that
sense of, collective guilt or responsibility
that we really have to,
try to avoid
and explain to American people and have them
see that it's unfair to put that burden
on us. I wanna ask you one more
question and then I wanna open it up
to our audience for their questions.
Terrorist killing in the name of Islam, you
say, is not the true Islam. Describe the
true Islam, the 5 pillars, if you will,
to help explain for those who don't know
what exactly the the doctrine or the,
the the underpinnings are of this religion. Well,
Islam primarily is about belief in God and
about the unity of God and what that
means is that Muslims recognize
their limitations.
That's why we try to submit ourselves and
our lives
to,
to in obedience to God. And what that
means is that we live our lives,
first in that awareness.
We exhibit that through our acts of worship,
as you say, the 5 pillars,
praying 5 times a day and ritual prayer.
Even more than that, I mean, supplications and
invocations, but the ritual prayer 5 times a
day,
fasting during the month of Ramadan, the pilgrimage,
to Mecca, paying yearly
a significant amount of our wealth. In fact,
1% of your salary goes
1 well, 2.5%
of a Muslim's wealth has to go for
annually
to the zakat, to the charity. For me,
I have to pay 1% of my income
to to the Islamic Society of North America
as a member of the of the board.
So that's an extra commitment.
But all of these things,
are to show our gratitude to God, and
that's what Islam really is about. It's about
showing gratitude for all of the things,
that he's given us, even our own our
own selves, our our ability to,
to speak and to live in community with
each other and try to
live in the most
merciful and humane way that we can.
Is there a question in the audience?
Yes. I wondered whether
you were concerned about the
potential for,
the radical Islam
group
to be,
come involved in in mosques around the United
States,
and sort of, dominate
the, voice of Islam in the United States,
and what you and your organization could do
in response to this?
That's a great question. Thank you.
The challenge in in American Assam, in particular,
is that
we do not have
and And because of that, each community is
individual. So there's no,
our organization
has no authority to go into any mosque
and demand that they,
run a certain way or speak a certain
way.
But what we can do and what we
are doing is developing
a set of best practices
for mosques and Islamic Centres
to develop guidelines
for those communities,
how their governance structure should work, what qualifications
there should be for imams,
what are the kind of,
what's the kind of training that an imam
should have,
and to then
once we have developed these guidelines, offer training
programs. So we have a number of training
programs
for imams
to help them understand their context, especially if
they've come from another country,
because the reality is that many communities are
still,
bringing imams who have been trained in other
countries who may be good,
preachers, they may be good theologians,
but they don't understand necessarily the context of
their community here.
So we're putting a lot of energy into
that,
trying to help,
orient them, train them, and then ultimately
and ideally have our own seminaries in this
country where we can,
have our own children
and our own young people be a generation
of leaders.
You say that American Muslims,
have a special obligation to help stop the
violence that is committed by Muslims in the
name of Islam.
Why do American Muslims have this special duty
to do that?
Well, as I said before, we don't necessarily
have any special power,
but we do have an obligation because we
have the freedom
to talk about these issues.
And the reality is that most Muslims in
the world
live in,
environments where they don't have that freedom,
because their political rights are suppressed,
their freedom of speech is very limited,
they may not have access
to to the resources that we have. So
there's a moral obligation for us to exercise
that kind of leadership
and it doesn't mean there's anything
special or unique about Americans,
but we have this rich,
diverse Muslim community. We have Muslims from every
part of the world.
So we can draw upon their experiences,
their heritage, their perspective,
and
debate these issues in a way, in a
free way,
so that we can then
encourage a discussion,
in other countries.
The other thing is that we're Americans. We're
part of this country. And the United States
is heavily engaged in,
Muslim countries, you know, in their economic policies,
their political policies.
So we also need to look at it
as American citizens.
How can we
be a bridge of understanding between the United
States, our policies,
and, Muslims,
in other countries.
You said that you previously,
never spoke, for example, about,
suicide attacks
committed by Muslims in the name of, Islam.
You said that you didn't avoid the subject
but that it it really wasn't something almost
on your radar screen. What what prompted a
change in that? Why is that something that
you do talk about now?
I think,
many muslims in America, like many Americans before
September 11th,
were rather parochial. I mean, this is a
big country and we have so many things
going on here.
We don't necessarily see our connection to to
what's going on in other countries.
And my major concern as an educator and
as a Muslim leader was
the development of our organizations
here in this country,
our schools,
our mosques,
our associations.
But when all of us were shocked by
the events of September 11th, we realized that,
if we didn't pay attention to what was
going on in the rest of the world,
it would still impact us. And so at
that point, we had to look, closer at
the kind of discourse
that was happening in other Muslim countries, the
way that that Islam was being used to
justify,
certain violent actions and take a stand on
that and so we proceeded to do so.
In fact, you say American Muslim leaders who
oppose the oppression of Muslims on the one
hand and also
wanna fight terrorism
risk being seen as traitors by both sides
and I'm wondering if you personally
have felt any backlash
as a result of your outspokenness.
Certainly, it's a challenge,
and Muslims in other parts of the world,
look to us
as as Americans as well as Muslims. And
so they want us to do something about
American policy that they don't like or that
they feel that negatively
impacts them.
Whether they understand
the
intricacies of that policy or not, I think
is another issue. But then, on the other
hand,
there is an unfortunate feeling on the part
of much of the American public that,
Muslims
need to prove themselves. They're guilty until,
they prove that they're innocent
and that if we say,
something that any other American would be free
to say, for example, something about the Iraq
War,
Suddenly, it's not because it's a moral issue
or American issue, but because as Muslims, we
really don't have the interest of the United
States at heart. Even though the majority of
Americans in the last election, I think, showed
that they were unhappy with,
much of the way the Iraq war is
going,
somehow it sounds a little bit different when
it comes out of a
Muslim's,
from a Muslim perspective.
I think there is probably another question percolating
out here. Go ahead. Well, let me get
a microphone to you and in the meantime,
while that microphone gets there,
there are 6,000,000,
Muslims in America.
And and I think in the US and
in places like Europe, many people wanna know
are and and you talked about how diverse
the population is, but are Muslims interested in
in integrating,
in in separating, or in some way
transforming western culture
to become a little more Islamic?
Would you answer that?
Yes to all of those things.
And I think this is the key that
that we have to treat Muslims as individuals
not as a collectivity.
Muslims represent
a broad scale, a broad range of
cultural and
ideological
positions
just as Americans do. I think when we
look in the United States and the history
of religious communities in the United States, we
see those utopian
communities that try to be somehow
a presence, a spiritual presence apart from the
world,
to offer an alternative to the dominant culture.
And then we see those who felt that
that it was best to live their spirituality
and their ideals
right in the midst of it and and
to try to,
to be part of
everyday life
but be a moral voice amidst that. So
I think we find the same thing with
with Muslims.
In the United States, I would say that,
the majority feel that it's best to be
to be active,
to be part of everyday society, and most
Muslims do do that.
The Muslim community in the United States is,
on average, more educated
and more well off than the average American.
So we see that
there tends to be more assimilation
in the United States. The situation in Europe
is a little bit different and
many of the Muslim communities there
come from,
countries that were colonized
by the Europeans, and now there's a kind
of blowback. You know, the Europeans invaded and
occupied their countries
and now these people are coming
and are living in Europe
struggling with racism,
struggling with
European countries that are not quite as open
to diversity
and pluralism perhaps as the United States and
not quite as open to public expressions of
religion as the United States.
So the dynamic is is significantly
different, I believe, in Europe than than in
this country.
Okay. Go ahead. Well, you you alluded to,
the the responsibilities of being a Muslim American.
But I wonder if you could say,
given the sort of stereotype
that that is sort of pervading, even before
911 I mean, I was reminded that in
the Oklahoma City bombing, the initial attribution
was to,
Muslims or at least Arabs.
How do what do how do you do
you advise
members of your group, and particularly young people,
I guess I'm interested in knowing, about dealing
with that stereotype and still exercising
their freedom of speech as Americans?
I'm I'm really glad you brought up,
young people because they're the ones that I'm
most concerned about, and I'll tell you why.
This kind of stereotyping
and distrust of Muslims is having
a large negative effect on them.
I have a lot of interaction with Muslims
who are, counselors,
psychiatrists,
working in mental health fields,
youth workers, and they've seen
a dramatic rise
in depression,
anxiety,
all
indicators of stress because of this. They feel
that,
they can't present themselves just as
as they are, but they have to somehow
explain
or or prove themselves that they aren't violent.
You know, they're just kids. They don't know.
They don't understand what's going on in the
world, but they're being asked to explain these
things. So it's really problematic,
and this is where, as a community, we
need to work with teachers
and those who touch the lives of young
people
to alert them to this dynamic
and try to find ways
to ease their stress somewhat.
The only solution really is education.
It's challenging
for a community, a minority community that's at
most 2% of the population,
to
impact
the the other 98%
of the
positive way with their message
when at the same
time, we're constantly being bombarded,
with images overseas
of war in Iraq, of this kind of
violence.
So it's an enormous challenge, but I have
to say that
that we're also very fortunate that we are
not alone in doing it. There are so
many,
faith based organizations,
interfaith groups, other religious organizations
who are sincere and wanting to help us
and to help get that message out. And
we have, in my work at Hartford Seminary,
I interact,
with with priests and ministers
who themselves are educating their congregations on Sundays
and saying,
we cannot fall back into these old patterns
of collective guilt
and stereotyping.
So to me, that that is proof of
really the best that is in American society,
and it makes me hopeful even amid,
amidst all of,
the bad news.
And we'll take another question,
in in just a moment. We'll get a
microphone to you so until that microphone gets
there. There was a a recent gala poll
that showed that nearly 40% of Americans admit
prejudice,
against or towards Muslims and then also that,
1 in 5 Americans said they would not
want a Muslim as a neighbor. How do
you respond to that?
Well, what's interesting is the other statistic
that the,
majority of Americans who have a positive view
of Muslims
do so because they have
neighbor or a Muslim friend or a coworker.
So I think that shows that the problem
really is that of the fear of the
unknown
or maybe the fear of the image that's
being projected.
That really is the challenge and,
certainly programs like this,
and others are doing their part in in,
humanizing Muslims,
in
trying to present a balance to the negative
images that we get,
but it's challenging and,
I think that
what's required is, as in many other areas,
for Americans to be a little bit more
sophisticated
in their consumption of news
and perhaps
to be a little bit more self aware
of their own
the way that their own
emotions can be manipulated
by
by news and information and images.
You mentioned a moment ago the news and
the media and our consumption of of those
things and of course many Americans have have
seen the documentary, the Cult of the Suicide
bomber.
Or at least they've seen the movie that
was based on it which starred George Clooney,
Sirianna.
And in it,
in the documentary, there is a scene, where
thousands of people are in a mosque in
Iran
chanting death to America.
And I'm wondering how your organization
can counteract
the powerful message that that sends.
Well,
that is a powerful message and it's a
frightening message
and it's also frightening when we look and
we see that even in America,
there are,
there are churches where the message on Sunday
is that Muslims are evil.
Muslims are
are,
people who should not be part of this
country,
that that
the government should use its power, in fact,
to,
to subdue and,
Muslims.
Those things happen in this country and when
I see those those group,
pictures,
I remember,
the pictures that we saw of Nazi Germany
where you would have Hitler,
talking in front of large crowds
of people and whipping up their emotions.
And I think as Americans, we have to
be very sober and consider in what way
the same thing could happen to us. We
may not be sitting in a stadium,
but we're sitting millions of us together in
our homes having our emotions manipulated.
But there also was the time
when Afghanistan was first attacked,
in response to September 11th,
the first
attack and the announcement of it
was,
announced
in,
on,
Sunday football game,
large screens, thousands of Americans sitting in a
stadium, and they all got up and cheered
when this was announced
and that's frightening.
You talked a moment ago about what it's
like for a a child, a Muslim child
in America. What's it like for an adult?
Have have you been the victim of,
prejudice?
Of course, I'm very privileged because I work,
I work in an environment that values,
religion and
religious expression.
Of course, walking down the street, people wouldn't
know that and I've had my random,
rude comment here and there.
But, far more positive comments,
far more occasions of people just giving me
a smile,
clearly wanting to say, it's Okay.
I accept you,
even non verbally.
But there is a concern
many people are having
increasing
challenges in their workplace.
We've heard many more,
cases of employment discrimination,
Muslims who are being fired or prevented from
promotion in their job because they are Muslim.
Certainly the number of hate crimes generally has
increased
enormously.
The Council on American Islamic Relations has been
documenting that, and the numbers are quite frightening.
So there are,
there is a problem. There is a problem,
and it's, at that point, incumbent upon the
government
to really take leadership.
Fortunately,
the,
the Department of Justice and the EEOC
have taken a number of cases
and have done a good job, but at
the same time, you know, we have this
kind of mixed message. You have
those cases,
and then on the other hand, we see
the mistreatment of prisoners, of Muslim prisoners. There
was recent news about
as
an enemy combatant.
And when
ordinary people see that this kind of thing
is going on,
I'm afraid that it might give them some
kind of license to feel that they too
can mistreat Muslims.
You mentioned government and, of course, Britain's Tony
Blair
said that the headscarf
separates Muslims and and shouldn't be used.
I'm wondering
what your reaction is to that and and
what the purpose of it is, what it
means to you.
Well, what's interesting is that,
Tony Blair was supporting Jack Straw,
who
was protesting against the face
veil,
so they said, well, the head covering's okay,
but the face veil is too is too
much and this is a sign of separation
of society
from society and should be rejected.
And
I don't know if you've been in London,
but I've walked around London before, and I've
seen some really interesting ways of dressing.
You know, I've seen 9 inch purple mohawks.
I've seen multiple facial piercings,
and
I've never heard, the British government,
comment
on any of those modes of dress. So
clearly there is
selective treatment there, and I think it's unfair.
These women should be free to wear what
they want.
It's the government's job as a servant of
the people to represent the people, not to
dictate
to them, their way of dressing. Whatever I,
you know, I feel personally about the face
veil is something else, but I certainly support
the right of individuals to wear
what what they wish. And,
so this was simply a politicization
of,
you know, of of an issue that should
never never have
been said. Okay. You had a question, sir?
Yes.
Do you believe that the American news media
have been fair in their presentation
of the
situation of,
Muslims in America or do you think they
have contributed to the problems that you're talking
about?
Well,
the news media is is diverse,
and I've had great experiences with with,
most with commercial media,
but public television and radio is much better,
and
that's just the reality.
Commercial media is about making money and
it's things that are sensational
that make money.
Conflict attracts attention.
I think of
the Pope's visit
to Turkey, and what was interesting
was
you could see that the media kept was
looking for conflict
and they kept framing this visit in terms
of conflict when, in fact,
any,
fair observer would have said that the real
story was the lack of conflict,
and
the real story was that in the wake
of a number of,
incidents in Europe where there were
this
tension and stress between
Muslim communities and others
that,
things worked out quite well. So I think,
you know, I don't think we can ever
really change that because that's the nature of
commercial media,
so we need to,
we need to be,
sophisticated
observers of news, I think, and consumers of
news.
And we'll get a microphone to, can we
get a microphone to someone here?
Could you talk a little about the Muslim
definition of God and how it might differ
from the Christian
notion?
Well,
the word,
God,
that is used in the Koran,
Allah, the primary word, is the same word
that Christian Arabs use to call God.
So in terms of whether this is the
same God or a different God, I think
we have to say that certainly the Koran
recognizes that there's one God
and that people have approached God through different
ways.
Christians,
generally,
you you have to believe in the divinity
of of Jesus to be a Christian. I
think that most Christian theologians would say that
that not accepting the divinity of Jesus would
take you outside of Christianity,
although there are,
certain Christian theologians who would say otherwise.
But that really is the the main difference.
Muslims
see
Jesus and all the prophets
as
as perfect recipients of the divine light and
as one of my
colleagues,
Timothy Winter, who's a lecturer at Cambridge, said,
is that
what what
the Muslim view was that,
Christians
mistook
the perfect mirror of the divine light for
the divine light itself.
So really, that's where the difference is.
God, in the Quran, is is,
described in many ways, according with many attributes,
and that's how Muslims approach
God through his attribute of mercy and kindness
and loving and
forgiver and
creator.
So that's how we come to know God.
Sometimes people say that,
the Muslim God is
so transcendent
that he's unapproachable,
but that's clearly not the case.
The Quran describes God as closer than your
jugular vein. So God is is always
the nearest
thing to you without being manifest in in
any part of creation.
But another interesting difference, and we'll take a
question in a moment, is,
Christians have statues and paintings and and so
forth of of Jesus
and there aren't, those kinds of representations of
the prophet Muhammad. In In fact, it's forbidden,
considered blasphemous. Why is that the case?
Islam,
above everything,
wants to maintain
the,
uniqueness
of God as distinct from creation.
So the attempts of humans to portray God,
in any way is considered to be,
highly presumptuous,
at least.
And then the fear is that by by
portraying prophets,
the prophet Mohammed, for example, by making depictions,
that people then may start to take that
as as an icon,
as a,
avenue of worship,
and that's to be avoided.
So that Muslims
try to maintain
that connection
of God
to that connection with God
directly
through,
through prayer but also
by embodying
the actions of the prophet Muhammad that taught
us how we can approach God. What kind,
what way should we pray
to
find that path to God.
Okay. We have a question over here, sir.
Your mini bio mentioned that you spent time
in Pakistan.
My daughter spent four and a half years
in Peshawar working with Afghan refugees.
I can't well represent her comments, but in
effect, she would say to you
that a great deal of so called
Islamic practice
is pagan. It has nothing to do with
the Quran.
Mhmm. And in fact, while she was there,
Mullahs were giving her grief all the time.
They would say the Quran says the Quran
says, when they could neither read Arabic nor
speak Arabic. Mhmm. And she, in fact, had
the Quran translated into Urdu.
Mhmm. Emphasizing women's rights and emphasizing sanitation and
health
because of the terrible practices that apparently these
men
perpetrated, especially in things like childbirth
and so on. I'm seeking your comments on
on that particular point.
Right.
Well,
there's there's certainly different levels of education,
among Muslim people and,
the Quran emphasizes the need for learning,
for knowledge,
and knowledge not just of scripture, but of
the natural world.
And this is why we see that at
the height of Islamic civilization that Muslims were
at the forefront of medical knowledge,
for example,
discovering
the mysteries of the circulatory
system and others.
So when we see Muslims in certain parts
of the world
who are resisting
modern knowledge,
who are,
in fact resisting even,
much literacy
in religion,
it is troubling.
At the same time,
I would have to say that we can't,
you know,
brush them all off. I met
remarkable
people of great spiritual
depth
among, the Afghan people and in Pakistan,
despite their challenges,
but certainly there is,
there are many cultural practices that are being
portrayed as religious,
whether the people know it or not.
We'll look for another questioner. Our microphones will
come around. Oh, you have one. Great.
You mentioned diversity before, and I understand that
your
society likes to promote pluralism, so that everyone
can have their own identity of Islam.
But,
isn't this also difficult? And how do you
deal with the differences of viewpoints? And when
maybe you see any conflict come up? And
also,
for the new generation of non immigrant Muslims,
how do they how is your society helping
them to find their way in identifying with
Islam?
Well, this is,
one of the biggest challenges is to, on
the one hand, provide guidance,
in those areas,
where we need to take a stand, and
on the other hand,
keep the the door open for,
respecting other opinions.
Famous or maybe infamous issue is the issue
of moon sighting,
where,
we have to make a decision on on
the method by which we will begin,
we will decide when the new lunar month
begins.
That's important to know when the beginning of
Ramadan
starts for fasting,
when we celebrate the Eids,
and there are different ways of doing that.
People feel very strongly about the different methodologies
that are employed.
Our society has taken a certain position
that, we believe is is the best position
for Muslims in North America, but not the
only position.
And so, it's that,
it's
being able to to say, 'Look, there are
a variety of equally valid positions but this
is what we believe is the best,'
that,
is challenging for some people who just want
one answer, who want a simple answer.
And in, certainly in my teaching,
what I try to do,
is to let young people come to terms
with that, come to terms with
with,
the diversity
that is,
present,
and that they have to recognize in Islamic
legal reasoning at the same time to be
able to make a decision. I mean, you
can't just say, Okay, there are all sorts
of opinions. At some point, you have to
take one yourself
and then, feel a certain confidence in that.
Alright. We have a question down here. I'm
interested in Suvism,
and I would like to know what is
the relationship between, Sufism and Islam
and why we haven't heard much about Sufism
in the west.
Mhmm.
Sufism is the, is the mystical tradition in
Islam. It's part of
Islamic
religious life and culture.
Sufism in its various forms is everywhere in
the Muslim world.
Traditionally,
in the pre modern period, especially, every Muslim
had a legal school
that he or she followed, a theological school,
and also a,
spiritual tradition,
through the different Sufi brotherhoods.
Now, these,
these,
spiritual paths
took all different forms. Some of them, I
think any objective observer would say,
really veered away from Islam
and became
quite syncretic and picked up many of the
traditions or practices
that non Muslims performed.
But most,
the majority of Muslims stayed within Orthodox Islam,
but
Sufism was
an added discipline
to enhance their spirituality
of Islam.
I think many Americans
know about
some Sufi figures,
people like Rumi
or
Hafiz, who were great poets and also,
Sufi leaders,
but it is something that perhaps is less
well known,
again, because,
good news travels slow and bad news travels
fast.
We talked a moment ago about, pope Benedict
and his 4 day visit to Turkey to
Istanbul.
He prayed in silence for 2 minutes,
Besada Imam,
facing Mecca and in Istanbul's famous Blue Mosque.
His his guide in Istanbul said that that
gesture
was more powerful, more meaningful
than an apology and I'm wondering if you
agree and how far you think that went
in healing the rift that was caused by
his, earlier statement.
Well,
I think there's there's 2 separate issues. I
I'm not fully satisfied
with that,
that the Pope understood
the reason why people were upset with what
he said.
So I'm not I'm not quite sure that
that he still got the the message about
that. It wasn't just about hurt feelings, but
it was also,
about the the factual basis for what he
said. But I thought he disagreed with that
statement anyway,
because he followed up his his remark, and
he said show me just what Mohammed brought
that was new and there you will find
things only evil and inhuman
such as his command to spread by the
sword the faith he preached, but he went
on to say that violence is incompatible with
the nature of God and the nature of
the soul for all faiths. So I thought
some people agreed that he was disagreeing with
that statement, not not confirming it.
Well, I think it's up to him to
to
clarify
his intention in his remarks. Having read the
the whole speech,
I do think there was something problematic.
But what I would like to focus on
is the fact that
whatever that was about,
the the good news
was that he did not cancel his trip
to Turkey. The Turks greeted him,
by and large,
hospitably,
graciously,
for a country of approximately
80,000,000 people. There were
really very small,
tiny demonstrations
relatively.
And the fact that he was allowed and
invited into the Blue Mosque,
what Turkish
Muslims would consider
to be their most important,
mosque in Turkey shows that
that we understand that we won't always agree
with each other,
that sometimes we will hurt each other,
but that doesn't mean that we have to
cut off relations.
And and the fact that we have,
as Muslims and Catholics,
in particular,
over the last
maybe 10 years or more,
have been working very hard to establish good
relationships,
ties, alliances,
paid off at that moment,
that we were able to fall back on
those relationships
and say,
you know, this was unfortunate,
it was hurtful, but that doesn't mean that
we can't continue to
dialogue and try to work for greater understanding.
As a Muslim, very interested to talk about
how we deal with difficulties,
because,
when we have public discussions,
inevitably because of the context
in which such discussions take place, we we
try to emphasize,
and I think this is a good thing,
the good news and and the positive.
But you you said something to me which
struck me as very important and very honest,
and you said that there are sometimes actions
among us Muslims which are more undermining
and dangerous and offensive,
both to ourselves and also to, the wider
world. I was wondering how you deal with
some of these difficult issues of great differences,
whether they're theological
or political
or strategic,
because I I think,
it heartens me that, there is that degree
of self reflection, but but also agreeing to
look at the difficult
subjects and deal with them creatively?
Thank you.
Ultimately,
our goal as Muslims is to live
righteously
and ethically.
Our goal is not to
be some kind of
group that just
cheers whatever it does.
That, in fact, is what Ibn Khaldun,
the great,
medieval Arab scholar called asabiha, group sentiment.
Religion isn't supposed to be group sentiment. It's
not supposed to be,
about just
sustaining
and and justifying your your group beyond anything.
Yes, we're supposed to build community, but what
is that community built around? If it's not
built on piety and righteousness and the search
for what is good and better, then there's
no value in it.
And the Quran says very clearly that if
Muslims make the same mistakes
and and choose to turn away from God,
and live,
a life
that is unjust,
then we will go down the same path.
We will lose our opportunity
to be moral leaders and we'll be replaced
by someone else.
So, that's the priority. To me, the priority
is
our own,
internal structure, our development
as
a community.
We do have to defend ourselves from
external attacks
but we have to be proportionate. What is
an attack?
Clearly,
legislation
that discriminates against Muslims and
and impedes Muslims' abilities
to live as Muslims is a problem. That
is a real threat
and we face some of those threats and
we need to put resources into defending ourselves,
and unfortunately, when we do that kind of
defense, it takes away some of our ability
to deal with our own internal problems.
After 9eleven,
so much money
in the Muslim community and human resources
went into legal defense
and to defend the civil rights of Muslims
in this country
that could have been put into,
you know, developing our institutions
to be more
responsible and responsive to the needs. So that's
unfortunate but,
but it's something that we have to do
and I'm I'm I'm happy to see that
that there's an eagerness and a hunger among
Muslims
to take responsibility
for their own communities
and and I love to see that. I
love the fact that there are many Muslims
who say, you know what?
This is my mosque. This is my community.
I'm I'm not gonna just sit back anymore
and you know, listen to some speech that
is
that is offensive,
that is sexist, that is whatever,
but, I'm gonna take some responsibility for what's
going on here and and,
try to correct that.
We're gonna wrap things up here. So I'd
like you to end by giving us a
take home message for muslims and non muslims
and and what you as the president of
the Islamic Society of North America will be
putting your energies into when you leave here?
Well, my
my main message is that,
as a as a religious person, as someone
who's trying to please God, I have to
say that we need to do a better
job, all of us.
That
that,
God did not give us the resources that
we have, the enormous resources that we have
in America,
so that we could fight each other more
sophisticatedly.
He gave us those resources so that we
could improve the world, so that we could
care for the hungry,
so that we could demonstrate
compassion and mercy in our lives. We need
to do that in community.
That means that Muslims need to reach out
to their neighbors, they need to reach out
to Christians and Jews and those of goodwill
who are trying to improve
the situation,
and and Americans,
need to stop being afraid.
They need to stop giving into that fear
and have a certain confidence. This is a
strong country.
This is a country that has
undergone
many,
pressures,
economic,
political, military in the past,
and has always
come out on top when it acted ethically
and morally and lived up to its values.
So stop being afraid and
and don't give up what makes you an
American,
for the sake of fear.
And if you reach out to your Muslim
neighbor,
you will find by and large, although there
are some some of us are rude and
obnoxious and not that nice,
but I think by and large, you'll you'll
find a good experience with most of us.
And your priorities in the in the coming
year? Priorities
are
standards, standards, standards and,
developing a new generation of Muslim leaders who
are going to work in this country
to make Islam
a responsible,
relevant, dynamic faith community. Alright. Thank you so
much, doctor Ingrid Matson, for being with us.
We really appreciate it. From the Hartford Seminary
in Connecticut.
For all of us at Penn State Public
Broadcasting, I'm Patty Satalia. Thanks so much for
joining us.