Imtiaz Sooliman – Reguit met Robinson A Zoom conversation , founder of Gift of the Givers
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Gift of the givers that is a cluster, hopefully, and as in
Africa, I tend, albeit three, come on faith, mill Yatra not
projected. Say, do this on whup to hear in water, right there still.
Welcome.
Welcome doctor. Nice. Speaking to you as always, we've seen a long
time again? Yes, we've seen some dramatic scenes in Kabul in
Afghanistan in the past few days, of people who are so desperate to
run away from the Taliban that has taken over in Kabul that they even
hang on to an aircraft taking off.
Now, have you had any calls or requests to be involved in that
situation to actually to help the refugees.
Well, initially, the calls came from two or three media only. They
said they know we got involved in situations like these. And I made
it very clear Since covid started last year on the 15th of March,
that we haven't we're not getting involved in any international
missions, because all our teams are needed in the country, given
the great health burden and the challenges in our country. Having
said that, I subsequently then got a message from somebody who said
there's 16 pilots from some company stuck in Kabul. And after
discussion later on last night, I was told that there are people
stuck in various parts of Afghanistan, so I'm talking
specifically about South Africans enough, and they're not all in
Kabul, and they need to get to Kabul. And my initial suggestion
was, of course, go to dako and look at at getting to Pakistan.
And then afterwards, reflecting on it, I realized, you know what, the
guys who got a very good influence on the Taliban and in Afghanistan
are the Qatari government. And also, if you have to bring South
Africans back, it'll be easier to bring them on Qatar Airways,
because Qatar Airways still has a regular flight schedule of South
Africa, which many airlines don't have because of the covid 19
situation. So last night, we got one of the Qatari ambassador. He's
new in the country. It's a long, it's a it's a long story how we
got trained. But he said, Look, he can help. He's willing to help.
But what we do need first is the names of all the South Africans
trapped inside Afghanistan, the ID numbers, or the passport numbers,
for this matter, and where they based. And we give that to him
first on our letterhead, he will look at sending an urgent message
for the motivation to the Qatar government in Doha. That's where
it starts off us. And so we said, look, that's the first aspect. Can
you assist? And we said, to locate them, let me know how many they
are, and we can. That's the first part. The second part we
requesting, we haven't done it directly yet in writing, is to ask
if Qatar government can facilitate using Qatar Airways to bring them
down because the Qatari Government is known to be generous. They've
assisted in many hostage situations. They've arranged for
other governments to get the hostages home from Mali and other
places. So they are known to be generous when it comes to
situations like these. And of course, it's a very expensive
business, given all the flight insurance airlines and closing,
opening, closing, nobody's sure what's going to happen. So it will
be advantageous if they agree both in terms of facilitating the
process of getting safe passage from everywhere in Afghanistan to
Kabul and from there, using their own airline to bring them to tua
and to South Africa. It's a shot in attack. There's no guarantee it
will work, but it's something we want to we have opened the dialog
for them last night, but we can't do anything until we have names
and passport numbers, you know, and where the people are based in
Afghanistan. So we actually need the public to respond to us.
Let me be a little bit personal, and forgive me for being so,
but you are a Muslim yourself.
What is your basic reaction in your heart about what's happening
in Afghanistan?
It's too early to say, you know, we judge any Muslim country, well,
not a Muslim country. I mean, the country's only buildings. It's the
behavior of people. It's too early to say, yet, you know, what? Are
they following Islamic law or not? Islamic law protects all rights.
It really protects women, it protects children, it protects it
protects even enemies. It protects people at war with it emphasizes
peace, it emphasizes dialog, it emphasizes the reduction of
bloodshed. What we can see is that they have huge support in the
Taliban. Have a huge support in Afghanistan. If you're comparing
to what they were 20 years ago, I think it's different. You know,
you need to give them time, because there's a new generation,
there's new blood, there's new thinking. It's too early to say it
may be just now for the media or for the, you know, for the public
consumption, when they start implementing their laws, it's,
it's, we'll see that there. I don't think they've attacked
anybody or harmed anybody, sort of the scientific voice notes coming
from there to say they are in the streets, but they haven't harmed
anybody that they themselves are safe in the hotel, except if.
Very uncomfortable being there, and they want to be back home. So
what are we seeing is on media, I can't actually say, until days
past, and we evaluate them based on how they conduct themselves,
according to Islamic teachings.
Well, you mostly deal with disasters, natural disasters, when
you're asked to go and help, when there's an earthquake, for
instance, as you did in Iran. But it seems to me that globally,
there's an increasing trend towards a disasters caused by
politicians. Is that also a feeling that you get? Well, our
first, our first project was, it was involved. It was involved in
the Bosnia war. Gift of the gates give us first project. Our initial
start off was the intervention in the Bosnia war in Europe. And
after that, we've been in other wars. We've been in Iraq, we've
been in Lebanon, we've been in Gaza, we've been in Syria, we've
been we've assisted Rwanda. So we've been involved in many
conflict situations created by men. So it's not something new.
And of course, in recent years, in 2014 we got involved in a hostage
situation, you know, getting Yolandi Koki out of Yemen, and we
secured Pierre caucus release. And on the morning of six December,
the day he was going to come out, he died when the American troops
went in and got here, and Luke summers died. And subsequently we
got involved with Steven
has come back to me now, and Yuan Gustafson, Stephen McGovern and
Juan Gustafson from Sweden, and we have been asked to assist with
many other hostage situations by other countries. So it's war
situations and hostage situations where the involvement is armed
groups, you know, groups with a very dangerous but we've
succeeded, you know, in giving advice, assisting governments in
getting their people out.
And then we had our own experience here in South Africa in the past
two weeks or so, of looting in absolute chaos caused by our own
people, and the ideas that perhaps there was something behind it,
some political kind of campaign against the current government.
Was that your impression as well?
Yes, I read it as there was four elements involved in this
campaign. Number one, those were the pros, who are supporters. And
I mean the everybody has a right to be pro, somebody. I have no
issue with that. The issue I had was, when you take it further,
there were looters. But of course, if you look at it, many of them
were very ordinary people, not violent, not dangerous. If you see
them going to the shops and coming out, a lot of them greeted you.
They came out with a packet of chicken or a something, fish or
whatever, and took it and took and they took the kids with them,
students went in. None of them actually were violent. You know,
they were very, very peaceful. And we watched that the danger was the
people who came after them, those who came deliberately to burn the
buildings. And this thing wasn't planned on the 11th of July or the
eighth of July. It was planned way beyond beyond that, because once
meeting people and speaking to companies, we realized they
targeted specific warehouses in specific places and left the other
ones behind. They knew exactly what stock was in which warehouse
and where those ones specifically were targeted and others were left
behind. They knew which malls to hit, which shopping centers to
strike, which pharmaceutical hotels to destroy, which
pharmacies to affect, which doctors practices, which opticians
to affect. So this was the third group, the ones that burnt. But
even those, to me, were just they were just being used. And when you
put it all together, you realize that the people who want to create
an impression that the country was in turmoil had no numbers, and the
only way to get members was to call people to help themselves
from shops. And when you do that, and when people are in a poverty
stable situation, although many of those who looted were not in the
poverty situation because of so many kumbis and buckies and
Mercedes and BMWs to come, means more stuff was taken by those who
are more well off than those who are less well off, because to move
such expensive heavy equipment required some you had vehicles,
and surely the poor people have bad thing to eat. Don't even have
those kind of vehicles or money to pay for that kind of transport. So
it was a great idea. There was a mass insurrection. It wasn't. It
was freebies. It was opportunism. So they needed to create the
numbers and create impression that the countries is under violent
unrest. It wasn't. The real problem was the fourth category of
people, and to me, those are the ones that are the ones who
instigated all this, and to them, I call them traitors. They are
anti patriotic, because who do they affect if they're saying
they're working in the interest of the people of South Africa and
black people who was affected the most so many black centers were
affected. 45 black opticians were affected. It is. It's so hard to
put one black child to university. It's a lot of sacrifice coming to
the rural areas, putting that to a school, they speak language or
ethnic language, they come to university. It's English based
medium. It's difficult to understand what's being said in
English because we haven't learned. It's not a short of
capacity. It's the language is a pro.
On. If I study in a English medium school and go to a zoom
University, I'll have the same problem. I want to understand what
you're talking about, and I won't be able to grasp what's being
taught. And under all those circumstances, these kids became
optometrists, and then worse of all,
doctors and nurses cannot get to public hospitals. Now, who are the
main patients in public hospitals. They're black, so actually, you
are responsible for making sure that your black people in
hospitals are not getting oxygen. And I would call the hospital to
say, we have a problem getting oxygen to our people. We cannot
feed them. We cannot give medicines to them. We have two
nurses, two doctors in the whole ward. How can there's no food for
the patients, so you actually stop people from getting help. And I'm
sure many died in hospitals because they could not get oxygen
and they couldn't get care, and in ICU, there's not enough people to
take care of them. You harm the people that you said you
supported. You destroyed the areas where people could buy food from
now they have to pay a much higher price, and take fuel and go out to
buy from somewhere else because the shops and the food is not
available as it costs far more for people already into faculty,
you've destroyed practices and optometry practice of of black
professionals, and you burn a pharmaceutical manufacturing
plant. Those medicines benefit people, black people and all
people of all race groups. You're affecting pharmacies. For example,
a pharmacy was affected in downtown. That pharmacy is the
only medical facility in a 45 kilometer radius. There's no
clinic, there's no hospital, all ARV medication, all the other
medication, all the the medical supplies for the whole region
comes from the one pharmacy. You've destroyed that pharmacy,
and you've put at risk 150,000
jobs again. How are you happy in the country? Any person who does
that is surely a traitor. And then somebody who promotes racial
violence, to cause disturbance, to get the end, obviously, is harming
the country. That cannot be a patriot. Patriots make peace. They
make dialog. They build a country. They fix things. They look at the
welfare of everyone else in the country. They don't cause
destruction, harm and inside death and you know, and clashes.
Are you happy with the response by a government to this situation
there?
No, they were totally it was a spectacular failure on the part of
government. You know, you had, first of all, to be sure that we
have unintelligent services. How can anybody not know that this was
taking place? When down the road, remember, all practice was area
said there was a lot of movement in area where they were living,
and people told them, soon, we're going to be having a lot of stuff,
a lot of goods, in our houses. And they asked when? And they said, in
a few weeks time, we're going to be getting a lot of stuff from all
so the word was already out that something was taking place. If
only people in the streets knew this. How come the intelligence
services didn't know that? And then let's go one step
if you knew you're going to incarcerate or take it to custody.
You know, an ex president was so much of support. And I want to
make it clear, I'm not saying that Zuma is behind all this kind of
speak something about that, also that you know what you're saying,
that next president is, you know he's going to be taken you know
his support. You want to take him away. When you going to do that,
don't you think there's going to be a reaction and there's going to
be a disturbance, shouldn't we? You'll be preparing for it to make
sure that you bring about stability and make sure it's taken
a decent way so there's no friction. To his credit, he went,
you know, peacefully. Had Summa resisted, there could have been a
big fight and a bloodbath there, but was the security forces ready?
Did they deploy troops? Did they deploy saps? No, they didn't do
that. And go one stage further. If you know you're going to have
unrest, how come your saps are not well armed? They don't have enough
weapons, they don't have enough bullets, they don't have enough
functioning vehicles. What kind of planning are you doing to deal
with not only this situation, but any other situation. And then you
act so many days later, you send the military in after the shocks
are destroyed. We're coming from an economy that's totally
destroyed by covid 19. And even before that, you know, we've
already got, we already downgraded our status. You know, we almost
need junk status. So we need everything to preserve the
economy. What kind of a message are you sending to the world that
the government of this country is incapable of providing peace and
stability and exist on the sidelines while shopping centers
and 40,000 businesses are affected at a time when we cannot afford to
lose 50 billion rand. It's like taking government money and buying
50 billion of firecrackers and burning it. That's exactly what
has happened. And we have showed no foresight in dealing with this.
And then you have internal conflict between your ministers.
It shows you don't know what's going on as a government. It's
truly I mean, it has caused such a lot of disenrollment among all
sectors of society, and I mean, all colors, you know, not the
specific race, all.
Is because everybody is equally affected. I said about Zuma,
we must make sure that we very clear about what we say. We can't
say that Zuma is behind this. And I say that not to defend him. I
know Zuma personally. I've met him on many occasions. What I do know
about him, and maybe I made a big misjudgment. But what I do know
about him that he won't want to split, spill blood in his name,
that he won't want to harm citizens in this country in his
name, and he won't want to harm you know, the country is old in
his name. And he's told me on many occasions, he said, Doctor
suriman, people use my name, they say things that I don't say. And
I'm I have personal experience with that. Let me tell you, one
day I got a call from someone I know the person is, and the person
said, the President says, Don't feed the people in Marikana. Don't
feed the people in manikana, and they will stop fighting or just
stop protesting. They will get hungry. So I said, the President
knows my number. Tell him to call me himself. I want to hear that
from his mouth. That never happened. And whenever I was with
him, he always said, President Zuma hasn't brought you anything.
The South African Government hasn't brought you anything. The
ANC hasn't brought you anything. The ward Council hasn't brought to
anything. The only people that have brought to something and is
talking to the public is from gift of the givers. So please don't
thank Zuma, don't thank the ANC, and don't thank the South African
government. Thank gift of the givers and their donors. Wherever
you went, you always saw goodwill with him and whoever you speak to
who knew him, well, know him as a warm hearted person. I don't know
if you'll read what's Helen Zilla had to say about him when she
mentioned that after she pinned the 782 charges whatever against
him, he still phoned her when she was out of the day to say, it's
lonely out there, isn't it. He is the one who offered Donald branch
after she put the 782 cases on him, when she was coming to a
meeting with the premiers, she said she was the only non ANC
Premier, and he phoned her to tell her, you know what, don't feel
scared. Don't be left out. It's all inclusive. So without
defending him, we have to be very, very careful that we don't
apportion the mayhem is going on on a person who may not be
involved. And then we were told that on the 19th of July they were
to go to escort and take him out of prison. Did anybody ask him he
wants to be broken out of prison? When they come on a common
criminal, asking them nothing happened, and if he wanted to run
away, why didn't he do that? When he was released, really released
to go to his parents funeral, that was a goal and opportunity for all
those people who said they're going to protect him and preserve
him and take him out and make sure he's not in jail, open opportunity
the funeral, you'd have just taken your 1000s of troops and taken
away. Why did that not happen?
To what extent are you still involved in the aftermath of all
this looting and drama that we've seen in KwaZulu Natal and hotel
we're on all the time. We haven't stopped from the first day. It
happened on the 11th in us. It happened actually where I am, that
same night on the 11th of July, the the the Brookside checkers,
which is less than two kilometers from where I live, will start the
dates. The disruption started there, and strangely, now that's
another thing. When I was there that afternoon, I was there on the
11th of July, on Sunday afternoon, in the same checkers, and the guys
are coming to tell me we're closing early today. And I thought
they were closing because of curfew, not striking me. That's
curfew is only 10 o'clock, and the mall normally closes at four or
five o'clock on a Sunday. So I said they're closing a little
early today. It didn't strike me. I was relating that to covid 19,
and the guy from the Vodacom shop told me, we're removing all our
cell phones that he told me afterwards, not the same day, and
they knew already that something was going to happen. How come
again, ordinary citizens knew, but the government didn't know. So
that day, when it happened, the next day, already, we were
involved. Well, on within, on Monday, it was not much drama. But
on Tuesday, on the 13th, we started getting calls from a lot
of people wanting milk for the children.
And then the calls came simple things like bread and milk. So by
the 13th, already we were rolling out bread and milk. And by the
14th, when we got calls from hospitals to say we got very few
staff here. Our doctors are worried that if something is made
available and some shops are available, how can they purchase
items? So they we said, Okay, we'll make that available to them.
And we started rolling out food parcels to healthcare workers. And
the hospitals called, and I said, like I said like I said, In the
beginning, there's no food for patients. So we started rolling
out food to patients. So it was bread and milk, food parcel to
healthcare workers, paramedics, frontline health workers, and then
the food parcels to areas that were affected. And we started
going far out, you know, all over KZN, but we had to change our
system. Normally.
Okay, we back the food parcels ourselves. We load the trucks
ourselves. We take the area ourselves, and we deliver it
ourselves. Now, you got a province that's affected in every corner of
the province. If you're going to do that yourself, you know how
long it's going to take to get food to people who are hungry. So
we change the system from because we've got a fantastic network and
people that we know all over the ground. People said, Look, I got a
truck. We say, Okay, come fetch the food parcel, fetch the items.
Can you package it yourself and get to the people who need it?
Host? They say, We know exactly what to do, where to do, and who
to give it to. So people who got trucks came and picked up food
parcels. Other people said, We'll deliver it. You do have volunteers
aware spacing to make the food parcels yourself. They said, Yes,
you got enough people send it to shower. For example, we got a big
warehouse, you know, and we've we've gone, we know so many
different communities in different areas will deliver it ourselves.
So to increase the speed of distribution and delivery, also,
the beginning, the problem was, there was not enough fuel. My
staff couldn't come to work, so four or five people only were
doing the food parcels using small vehicles. You were scared, stuck.
You may be a target to be attacked, you know, for your
vehicle or your warehouse, so you have to be circumspect in the
beginning. But soon after the fourth day, we took out all our
trucks, all our stock came, and the supplies, fortunately, were
available in in KZN, we didn't have to bring anything from
outside KZN. Everything was available locally. And from that
day after today, we've carried on delivering both, in case, again,
to a less less extent, hotang, because Gauteng, has not been that
much affected compared to what has happened in our part of the world.
And we've already reached close to 30,000 foot parcels distribution.
Besides, in addition to that, it was the hospitals, healthcare
workers, the paramedics and then institutions all age home, you
know, often reaches home for the physical, immensely challenge.
They were in trouble even before the start what covid 19. Their
funding had already started decreasing substantially. So they
were already hungry. They were already in difficulty. So we made
it a policy to start rolling out support in bulk to all these
institutions. And the next phase we're busy with whilst doing these
things is to support businesses that you know have collapsed, to
put them back in business. And I give you one example. The first
one we done was a pharmacy in Phoenix. Asked the guy, what do
you need? He said, Look, other people need more than me. I'm
going to take my savings family and friends, but if you give me
between 10 and 20,000 I'm sure I'll be able to start, everything
was destroyed. So look, I'll get insurance. I said, when said,
probably two months time. So I said, how many staff you have? He
says, 14. So as he said, If I start in two months time, it means
14 people will be without income, and himself and his family when
income, I gave him basically 25,000 men. And a week later, his
pharmacy was open. 14 people were in business, and you're in in
working already, and it has started in in some a lady who
sells clothes, we gave her some new stuff, and she's back in
business. The farmers in Dalton, I spoke to you about, we've given it
to some other companies who want to look at it to see how they can
put a pharmacy back on its feet. Now we also renovating Glenda,
gray. Professor Glenda Gray's town clinic in Johannesburg, in
clubtown, it was affected. There is a it's a research center. It's
a clinic. My teams are on site right now upgrading that clinic
for Glen Professor Glenda Gray, as well as putting in new equipment,
and hopefully by Monday, that should be fully functional.
There's a home for the physically invented challenge in Maryland
that was severely destroyed. We also we're sending teams in and
supporting them on equipment, not only us, the other people also
supporting it to put them back on their feet. And then we're looking
at pharmacy practices. We're looking at opticians and other
businesses, you know, both informal and formal one and to see
how we can help. And we're getting corporate companies coming forward
to put up funding to upgrade businesses and to rehabilitate
them.
Doctor. You are involved in this line of disaster right at the end
after the event you get involved.
So the problem where it starts is not really dealt with by you,
rightly so, because you have a different task on your hands. But
nevertheless, if you had the opportunity to make a difference,
to make a suggestion of what should happen in terms of that
political interaction in our country, to actually alleviate
some of these problems before we get to disasters,
we have to social cohesion is very important in our country right
now. What are the what is the main issue? It's economics, the fact
that some people have and some people don't have, and also, when
you have a political party that's running a country and has got
instability within itself, it starts there a lot of plans. Look,
the governments are fantastic policies. They got a fantastic
constitution. They got grand ideas. But implementation is the
big problem. And implementation is affected both at political party
level, before it comes to government level. And of course,
we are after ministerial level. There's conflict blow down with
the civil servants, where there's so many you.
Decision makers that there's conflict between directors,
between director generals, between people in different departments
that work together, like for covid 19, why didn't we have a
centralized disaster facility that overrides health, water, trade,
everything associated what the economy and health with covid 19?
We are different departments, only in different directions and and I
give you one classic example. So to answer your question, we have
to have stability within the party itself. And a lot of this fake
unfortunate is related to ego. It's related to ego, it's related
to greed. It's related to personal benefit. If there's no altruism,
you know, and there's a lack of spirituality, morality and ethics,
all that we are suffering in government and outside the
government. It's not restricted to government. It's in the corporate
world. Also, when we talk about corruption, you can only get
corrupted in government if some from outside comes to offer you
that corruption. It's not merely you corrupting yourself, and we've
seen what has happened over what big companies, you know, getting
involved in government corruption. It doesn't come from from
government itself. So there is a intrinsic deficiency in
spirituality, in morality, in ethics, in faith. And these are
the things, if you address, you will see a difference. And a lot
of that has come to the surface in the last two years since covid 19,
and what has happened now? And a lot of people are mentioning the
same things. They want to have more experience with spirituality
and how to bring about changes in character and personality and in
behavior. So these are things where political parties have to
look not at them. What because you come to the government for two
reasons, either to benefit the country or benefit yourself. Right
now, it looks like most of our aim to benefit themselves. Independent
for themselves about the country, so you need to be sure why you're
going into power. That's a very important note to me. I was coming
back to the to what I told you about conflict. Now the Department
of Trade and Industry Minister I Patel last year, says the country
needs ventilators because we know there's a shortage worldwide. So
what can South Africa do? What is science and its technology? The
National ventilator group is formed. They got engineers of all
skills and the SKA people, the telescope people, they get
involved. They get 96 proposals. They water lead down to six from
the proposals. They designed a phenomenal machine, the C prep
machine, which is most practical, most suited to our environment.
CSIR manufactures these machines. Sapra registers them and authorize
them to be used for limited temporary period on South African
patients, specifically for covid, 19 for oxygen supply. Solidarity.
Fund pays fund, 20,000 machines, 12 and a half 1000 each two, 50
million. There taxpayers money, South African money, well spent.
No issue with that. Machines are very well are good required for
the country. Everybody did a good job. And then after that, the
drama starts. The National ventilator group calls and says,
We can't get these machines into government hospitals. I said, I
don't understand. Then the government authorizes production
of this machine. They said, Yes, but we can't bypass the health
system or work with the health system. We are being obstructed to
get these machines into government hospitals. It was a peak of the
second wave. People were dying in the car park, in casualty, on the
farms, in the cars, in the homes in the wars, they were just dying.
There was no not enough oxygen delivery devices, and it was not
enough oxygen. I said, Give them to me. They gave us two and a half
1000 in 10 days, we distribute 12,000 machines to several
hospitals in six provinces. And I said, I'm not waiting for
anybody's permission. We're going to tweet. And two days later, we
started getting the calls for the first time this weekend, we didn't
count any bodies. We've saved so many lives. Where were these
machines? Why were they not brought to us? One government
department couldn't get into another government department.
Doctor, what are the goals that you so wish that you can actually
attain?
I like to see a stage where we don't have to harm people in terms
of poverty, I like to see a stage where everything is sustainable,
where people are self functioning, where we use money for
development. I like to see all the hospitals in South Africa
upgraded, because when sometimes, when people go today, there's not
the buildings look when you look at it, you did. Am I going to get
better here? Psychologically, it's a problem. I would love to see all
the hospitals, government, corporates, international donors,
getting together, and we busy with that right now. We are bringing
hospitals to as best we can. We are braiding schools as best we
can, putting up balls in farming areas to save the sheep, to help
the economy, so farm workers can go back to work. You can generate
economy. You can have the GDP 18% so.
Boreholes, more fodder, more enriched pallets, sanitation at
schools, more counseling services are required, putting for more
doctors and pharmacists and nurses to study and right now, the need
of the hour is psychologists. There's trauma in every way. What
the What the looting? What the covid 19 or the economy or job
losses, and universities, out of 300 candidates, take eight people
for counseling psychologist, or, you know, eight people for
clinical psychologist. I don't understand the logic. Universities
should be churning out students that are required for the needs of
the country. You can't have 300 students and take only eight to 10
people and say, you become psychologists when there's a huge
need in the country for psychologists. Right now, there's
a job creation, there's essential service. We we put people to
research and they study and they study and they study, and
afterwards they come up from there with all that management and
there's no job because it's irrelevant study. We need to
relook at what's required by the country and fund those kind of
things so that in people right now, we need doctors, we need
nurses, we need dietitians. We need first years, we need
paramedics and we need psychologists. It's usually rocket
science. It's a ready job to walk into the government be prepared to
fund that and give the job. There's 40,000 posts that's not
fully hospitals, and then municipalities are totally under
under skilled. All the skill has left in municipalities. 223 227,
municipalities in the country. You can put in engineers, you can put
in technical guys. You can put in accountants. There's job creation.
You'll spend money, but in the long run, you will save a lot of
money on infrastructure, on accounts, on governments,
governance, on corruption, you'll actually save much more money than
you spend, and you'll improve the economy of the country, and the
country itself will be on a proper footing. So I would love to see
all those kind of things taking place in South Africa. And more
than anything else, I like to see social cohesion, a patriotic
approach. And yes, what covid 19 and the looting, there's been a
great goodwill amongst all population groups to hold each
other, to support each other, to strengthen each other, and say we
are. This is social activism, where civil society is saying
we're taking control of the country, to uplift each other and
uplift ourselves in interests of ourselves, our children and future
generations. Thank you very much. Good luck and all of the best.
Thanks. Thank you very much. You.