Imtiaz Sooliman – Gift of the Givers cofounder Zorah Bibi Sooliman graduated Masters in Counselling Psychology
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The speakers discuss the prevalence of multiple wives in South Africa, with some being considered "outside the norm." They also touch on the acceptance of multiple wives in South Africa, with some being considered "outside the norm." They emphasize the importance of practicing "verbal" marriages and the need for men to provide equal nights and time for their subsequent wife and children. They also discuss the issue of "by default" marriages and the dangerous of it affecting women in their families. The speakers emphasize the need for men to provide financial resources to both families and for them to say they know they are not going to take it well.
AI: Summary ©
Businesses were burnt down, was raised to the ground in a fire
last week, and they have lost absolutely everything. I did ask
the brothers on air how we as Muslim community can be of
assistance. And Alhamdulillah, they said assistance. First and
foremost, they asked for the community's do us. And then went
on to say that in whichever way we as a community can assist them, it
will be greatly appreciated. Alhamdulillah, we have
subsequently received,
we have received communication from Faruq mutala, whom I presume
is representing the family,
and he has forwarded on the family's banking details to us, so
whomever would like to help the family monetarily, please send
your funds to A h haffergy, FnB, Costa check account. The number is
62061312767,
you may not be able to take down these details. I will give it to
you once again towards the end of the show, but you can call into
the studio and we will supply those details to you. It's 943
exactly, and our final interview for the morning is with Zahra
Suleman. She's the director of gift of the givers care line.
Salaam Alaikum, dear sister, and welcome to the program. Walekum,
salaamu Rahmatullah, Hey, sister, Judy, and to the listeners as
well. Now I remember the last time I spoke with you, you said to me
that you were busy with your masters, Alhamdulillah, and I
wished you well. So let me, let me say right up front, heartiest,
congratulations in graduating with a master's degree in counseling
psychology from the University of KZN, and this happened on Monday,
and by the way, I saw the beautiful family pictures, and I
think Everybody's absolutely delighted at this amazing
achievement many
amongst
JazakAllah, oh here, and it's so heartwarming that everybody is
sharing in our joy. Alhamdulillah. Alhamdulillah. But I must tell you
that I've been absolutely intrigued by your thesis,
and of course, you examined the lived experiences of Muslim women
in polygamous marriages in Durban and the surrounding areas. And let
me just go on to say we'll try and unpack that. Inshallah, I remember
those situations as a growing girl because we had similar situations
in our own family, uncles who were who had second or multiple wives,
and the possible pain it caused the first wife. However, if we go
north of our borders to ever to sub Saharan South Africa for that
matter, we know that first wives actually go out finding suitable
wives for their husbands. So let's look at these different
experiences and the different responses to the polygamous
marriages from around the world.
Okay, so, so, okay, so, so you want me to talk about the general
prevalence of polygamy up north, absolutely
apart from up north. Let's look at your thesis. What were your
findings in your immediate surroundings? Okay, so yes, like
you said, rightly said,
in the African, North African states, in the Arab states, and
even in some places around America, although they are small
pockets of of communities, but but polygamy is a practice, an
entrenched practice, in their communities, and like you said,
that it's part of their culture. It's very normal for them to
accept that, and it's also the honor of the first wife or the
older wife, to go and choose the suitor for her husband as a second
or a subsequent wife
coming down to South Africa. We know this is not a common I mean,
it's not in accepted
practice here, although the religion sanctions it. But
you must understand that we live in South.
Africa. So we live on the threshold of a western society,
and we are muslims trying to live by our religion. So in very, very
much, we are in a mixed society. So polygamy is not that readily
accepted here, and although it is on the rise and common, but it
still happens very, very secretly. So yeah, the first finding was
that when these marriages do take place, they happen in secret.
Okay, so, yeah, I know, carry on, alright, okay.
Shall I go? Okay? You indicated that Alhamdulillah in Islam, you
know, it is sanctioned. But we also know, in case, our brothers,
listening and watching the show this morning, think that they can
go out, carte blanche and do as they please. As regards multiple
wives, we do know it's under very strict conditions and certain
conditions that multiple wives are allowed. Uh, that's the one issue.
And then the the second issue around acceptance, or non
acceptance, of the practice in South Africa could possibly be
tied in with the more educated sisters, because they educated,
because they financially independent. They won't stand for
multiple wives or a second wife in the relationship. Yes,
well, it's yes and no to that, but let me go. Let's take this the way
you ask the question first, right? That if brothers are planning on
taking on a subsequent wife, the rules are very, very explicit in
the Quran. I don't have my Quran with me right here, but we all
know the verse where Allah instructs Mary two or three or
four, if you are able to treat them justly, if you are not able
to, then one is best for you, and Allah knows best. And Allah says
that you will be prevented from committing sin. The sin Allah is
referring to is the mistreating, the maltreatment of the both
wives, whether it's a second wife or the first wife, whether it's
the first family or the second family, treating both. If a man
wants to embark on a second or a subsequent marriage, he has to be
absolutely sure that he can treat both sides with absolute equality.
If he cannot do this, Allah asks him to refrain from it, because
that is a sin. So, so, yes, we talking about
that is the Quranic instruction and injunction. And also, to give
you a little bit of background as to when a polygamy was was
instructed in the Quran as a means of social justice. So it was at
the time of the Battle of Uhud and our Muslim community must know we
were a growing Muslim community. At that time, Islam was still
growing, and from that community we lost a lot of our men in the
Battle of Uhud. So the Prophet sallallahu sallam said that he
asked the Muslims of the time to take on the widows of the men of
of the who the the men who became Shuhada, and to take on these
women as their wives, to give them respect, to give them dignity and
as a means of social justice, so these women would not be out
there, you know, strained or distraught or or not having any
means of of looking after themselves. So that was the aim
and the purpose. Why the instruction for polygamy came in
Surah,
for, for, for from, from the battle of Uhud. And the other
thing where you mentioned that maybe more educated women will
take a stand in in saying that they do not want to be part of a
polygamous marriage, I said that the answer to that was yes, and no
one is Yes. More and more people are becoming more aware and
educated of our rights as women. Firstly, there's Islamic
contracts. When you, when you when you enter a Nikah, you have an
Islamic.
Contract. This is an old practice from the time of the Prophet
sallallahu, Abu Salam, and even, you know, the sahaba. And for many
centuries, it carried on. It's just something that is not so
common now because of the way Islam has been changed here,
because it's been brought down from the Indo Pakistan culture. So
contracts are not a necessary part of Nikas, but it is an Islamic
part of our Nika, and a woman can stipulate there whether she is
fine with her husband taking on a subsequent spouse later on in the
marriage, she can contract that so yes, when women are more educated,
they come to know about that information. They're more aware of
their rights, and they are able to take a stand and speak up for
themselves. On the other hand, sometimes educated women who might
have, you know, they've got on in years because they were pursuing
their their multiple qualifications, and they are
working and they are independent. Many of them opt not to have
children also. So a lot of them would would not mind being a
second or a subsequent wife to a husband, because then they don't
have to take on the full responsibility of being the
traditional wife. So they are still free to practice and pursue
their careers and as well have the safety, respect and dignity of
being a wife, a Muslim wife,
Alhamdulillah, I do kind of as I've said to you, we've had
similar situations in our family as well, and The second wife was
never welcomed in the family home. She was always marginalized,
and according to our religious sanctions, that then is wrong. But
that's a different obviously, that's that. That's one part of
the equation. What have you found in your research, is it being more
widely accepted? Are second wives or subsequent wives being embraced
in the family circle, so to speak, and are their children's rights
being taken care of as well? Because we've heard of lots of
cases where the children were possibly even left out of the Will
the subsequent wives. So that's a huge problem as well. Is it not
it? Is it is, and that is why the Muslim marriage bill that's been
under a study for the last I think it's over 10 years where, where
advocates who are fighting for the Muslim marriage birth to be
passed, are fighting for one of the reasons is that the subsequent
wife should be given equal rights as the first wife, because she in
Islam, There is no first and second wife. There are co wives.
So each wife has to be treated equally. They are part of the
inheritance. Their children are part of the inheritance, just like
the first family. The second family has the same right. So in
my findings, I had participants who were first wives and I had
participants who were second wives. And often people think it's
only the first family that suffers, and that was incorrect.
Even the second families do suffer, and sometimes it's the
other way around, from the husband's perspective or the or
the family's perspective, where the second wife is more readily
accepted, and the first wife is shunned, and in some cases it was
the other way around, but it's more common. The latter is more
common where the second wife is not as well accepted. Sometimes
the children are not well accepted. Sometimes the children
are accepted because people say, look, children are innocent, but
then the treatment is not the same. So yes, that that was one of
findings, that of my, of my study and but, but definitely in terms
of the emotional pain and the feelings of betrayal and the
breach of trust was felt by the first wife and the First Family,
mostly. And the reason I'm using first and second is just for
clarity purpose. But in Islam, there's co wives, not first and
second and third wife. Okay, Zara, so let's look at the.
Issue slightly differently. And when we talk first and second
wives, often times. And you know, I'm not quite sure what your
findings has suggested, because you're probably looking at the
current generation, but when I cast my mind to my family
situation,
the situation played out as follows, the uncles were married
off. It was a an arranged marriage. Often times they were
not even consulted, or if they had been consulted, they were not
necessarily happy about that particular marriage, so they then
went into the marriage to please the elders in the family, and then
later on in life, they happened into relationships, affairs,
whatever they may, whatever it might be. And then we advised make
the union halal and marry the woman. So that was the situation
in the past. What is your finding suggested? Yes, that was one of
the findings as well. Like you said, to arrange marriages, and
then later on, the couple feels that they are not compatible. And
then the husband, in most cases, the husband, because he is out
there in the working place, the woman is usually at home, raising
the children, tending to the house and stuff like that. So the men,
then do find their own personal choice and and then, of course, if
it goes into an like an illicit relationship, yes, they are
advised to make the relationship halal. And because we know the
Quran again is very strict, do not commit Zina. Do not go near Zina
and and so you have to make that relationship halal. So yes, what
you said was exactly right, one of the reasons why men went into
subsequent marriages. But let's turn that coin the other side. It
happens to women as well. It happens to women as well, right
where they have been forced to marry somebody in the family and
and they are not happy. And we know that polygamy is not allowed
for women, absolutely. And somehow, the woman makes it work.
I mean, there's a hadith to the effect that if you see something
wrong in your spouse, do not focus on the wrong, but look at what is
right or what is good, and focus on that and and make your marriage
work.
Okay? So, but
I think you raised a very important point, that we are now
moved away from those generations, right? So I think in our
generation, we don't choose the spouses for our children. We leave
it to them, provided that they they choose a righteous spouse and
that will fit in with their personality characters, and also
be able to fit in with the families. So I think it's a very
dangerous thing that parents do when they do that, so it's not
fair to either the husband or to the wife, and we should allow our
children to choose their own spouses, to prevent something like
this in the later on in the marriage. So a very important
point you raise. Julie, okay, Zara, I know you have time
constraints, but please just indulge me for a minute or two
longer. Please. Um, on that very point, sadly, we are allowing our
children to choose their own partners. But have you noticed the
other trend? We're having higher rates of broken marriages and
divorces. So going wrong? What is going wrong here exactly? I mean,
you know, you often hear people say, but in the old days, we had
arranged marriages, and they were, yes, yeah. They were for keeps.
They worked. People were faithful to each other. What is the problem
now? I think that the generation of today,
I think their focuses are, are wrong in terms of materialism, in
terms of wanting, making lots of demands on each other. So you
still get the couples where we think we're living in a more
modern society now, but some of the the husbands are still
expecting their educated wives to still, you know, stand on at their
and call and do every little thing for them. So these women, who are
educated, are not standing for that. That's one. On the other
hand, the women, the educated women, must be making a lot of
demands on.
Husband, who is probably trying to live give her a comfortable life
and for the children, and with with the demands he is unable to
give her, the marriage then becomes a sour marriage and and, I
mean, there's, there's a lot of
they disgruntled. They're unhappy and and it doesn't work, because
the values have changed.
I think the values have changed from the time when we got married
and our parents and their parents got married. I think people are,
you know, we live in a in a generation of instant
gratification. People want things quickly, and they want it fast. We
were patient, and our parents were very patient. And if you didn't
get something, that was it. It was an accepted fact. We didn't make
such demands on our spouses. So yeah, I think that, and and maybe
also they don't have get to know about each other well enough, and
then later on in the marriage, they discover these personality
traits or characteristics about each other, and then, no, that's
not what they want about each other. That's not what they like
about each other, and then they cannot continue a marriage. Yeah.
You must have heard that often used phrase, the wife telling the
husband or the in laws, I haven't signed up for this. I didn't sign
up for this. Moment they hit a roadblock. We've just had a
question from a listener suggesting that this subject of
polygamy is debatable, what is just? Obviously, that is the big
question. What is just? And how do you quantify that? So that's the
one question. Because I know you need to go in a minute or two. I
also I think we need to question the issue around you spoke about
the Battle of Uhud. We do know that Allah allowed the Muslim men
to take multiple wives because they wanted to give dignity to the
widows back in the day and to and to support them and their
children. Uh What's the status with widows in the current
society, because I've spoken with widows recently, and they feel
like they don't matter any longer, once their spouses have died, they
believe they no longer have an identity. They're not taken
seriously, they are not respected in their own right. So that's a
huge issue. So we need to shift our thinking. I don't know how I
would respond if my husband came tomorrow and said he wanted to
take on a second wife. I'll have to think really long and hard on
that. But I do think, I do think we need to start thinking about
the widows in our society. And it's for a multiple, multiple
reasons. It's it's not only about the *, it's about the comfort,
it's about the dignity, it's about the financial and other support
that comes into play here. What happens if your wife has a
terminal illness? Wouldn't a subsequent wife be the answer to
assist the family,
or if he becomes incapacitated. So those are all the issues we need
to put out in the community. What were your findings? Did you raise
these issues in your thesis?
Yes, they, they, they came up in my literature review. So we looked
at that Islam is a solution focused model. So when we have a
challenge in the society, like the ones that you brought up, and the
only one that you missed out was there was If a wife was infertile
and she was unable to bear children, then, as a solution to
the problem of infertility, the husband was allowed to take on a
subsequent wife so he could have children. Because we do know, one
of the reasons that we marry in Islam is to increase the abuma So
So yes, all of those reasons we spoke about widows, about
financial security, about giving the women who like you, you said,
the the experiences of widows, where women feel that they've lost
their identity, they don't matter anymore. So if a woman is married
as a subsequent wife, she's granted that respect again, and
that it's wrong for us to be looking at widows in that way, but
for her protection and for her identity, if we allow our husbands
to marry a widow that is so much of blessings for the.
First Wife and the family, and what you are, you're giving honor
and dignity to the widow, and those are all Islamic reasons for
why a subsequent marriage can take place. And I forgot to mention to
you, and I mentioned to you that the verse of polygamy came at the
Battle of Uhud. I also want to go back into pre Islamic history, pre
Islam, where the Muslims? Well, they were not Muslims then, right?
They were jahiliya and and they married multiple wives, not up to
four, multiple wives. They didn't know who their children were,
because they just married women had children, and they were
children and women everywhere. And can you just imagine, from a
social justice perspective, what that society must have suffered,
because how can a man
unless he's super, super, super rich, but how can a man provide
for so many spouses and for his offspring. So one of the reasons
when this verse of polygamy came down was also to limit the number
to four, because, more than that, the other issue, as you speak,
about social injustice. And in the times of jahalia, when men married
multiple women, I should imagine, in certain instances, they lost
count of whom they were married to, how many children they had,
and there was the risk, or it possibly even happened, that
brothers and sisters then facilitate each other. Yes, yes,
exactly. You know the sickness of their situation as well. So
are always there to protect us. Allah will never stand down of us
in the Quran that will apply to a society if it's not going to be
for their good, it is always for our protection and for our best
interest. Okay? And I just want to go back to that view that asked
the question of, what do we mean by being, just being just to all
four wives? And I guess it is for that reason that Allah has made it
so difficult. Can you, in fact, be truly just in every possible way,
physically, mentally, emotionally, you know, financially, etc. Can
you truly be just to all four or, you know, two or three wives? You
can't. It's, it's almost virtually impossible. So if you can, then
you are an amazing human being. But if you can truly, truly be
just then you can go ahead and have your multiple wives, but you
can truly be true to yourself and say, I can't be just then know
that a subsequent wife is not allowed to. You do not qualify.
So you've got this amazing thesis, who and how are the general public
able to access it, and how do they put it to good use? Okay, so I
have been asked to, I haven't summarized it right, so I haven't
given an edited or or a condensed version of it. It's still in its
full form. So I need to do that, and then I need to send it out to
Islamic media and journals so that it's out there in the public
domain and people can access it. And one of my aims and objectives
for doing this thesis was that it should go out there so that men,
women and all stakeholders involved in the community, mostly
our ulama, the moulanas, who Sanctify these marriages, whether
they are first or subsequent, and they just need to know through the
voices of the women what the lived reality is out there, so that they
could educate the mulanas from their podium. Can educate the men
our we've got enough media, salaam media, radio Islam, there's a lot
of Islamic media that we can use these platforms to educate both
women and men to say how polygamy should be practiced and and what
the rules and the requirements are, and that A man can only go
into it if he can absolutely be fair and just at every level, and
which means financially, he's got to provide for both, right, also
the first family, the way they were living before he took on a
subsequent wife. He cannot reduce that quality and level of.
Living. He's got to make sure he's He's maintaining that level, and
he's got to give that same level for the subsequent wife and her
children, and from a social point of view, from he's got to give
them equal nights, equal time. I found in my study it wasn't like
that. The subsequent wife was getting less time, and the
children were getting less time, less resources, and they were not
exposed to the public. It was almost like the husbands were
embarrassed to take their second wives out. They take them out to
areas where the Muslim community does not congregate so so commonly
and so so if, if you know you did the right thing and you did it the
Islamic way you made the Nika, then there's nothing wrong that
you've done now, expose your wife. Let it be part of the community,
although on the flip side of the coin, the subsequent wife did not
feel very comfortable, because she kept thinking that the first wife,
everybody in that community knows the first wife and the First
Family. So she herself kept that because she was also feeling a
little bit shy or awkward, not comfortable, maybe to some extent
embarrassed as well, and so she kept to it. But this is what I
found, if a man wants to do it, and to answer that question of
justice, he must be able to spend the same amount of time with both
families. He must give the same amount of financial resources to
both the families. Socially, he must integrate both families into
society
and emotionally, that is the one thing he does not have control
over, because even the Prophet sallallahu wasallam said, In
matters of the heart, he cannot say that he is equal to all his
wives absolutely
my final question, I do appreciate your indulgence of time.
Just correct me if I'm wrong here, the man doesn't need the
permission from the first wife to go into subsequent marriages. Am I
right? But what's more, what respect should he, you know, what
sort of respect should he afford her? Because what's happening
currently is the men do this very secretly, and by the way, just
somehow the other maybe when a child is born, or through some
coincidence or accident, the wife or the first family, then find out
that he's married another woman, and there might be a child or
children out of that marriage. So what? What should he be doing in
terms of the situation, just to create some harmony in the life of
the first wife? Yes, definitely. Look No wife, you said that
yourself, that you don't know if your husband had to come and tell
you that this is what he wants to do, how you're going to respond.
But whether you agree or you do not agree, I think it's the right
thing to come to the wife and say that these are my reasons that I
want to take on another wife. I do not want to commit Zina. I also do
not want to do it behind your back. I want you to know
everything that I am doing. And also he needs to tell her his
reasons. He needs to also express to her, whether he's he still
loves her, he still cares for her deeply, and or has he lost
interest in her? And if that, but he still wants to keep her. In
that case, they can then make a decision that, if that is the
reason he is wants to take on another wife, she can exit the
marriage because she would not want to be in a marriage where her
husband does not love her and care for her anymore. But if that is
not the case, and he is fine with he's still happy with his first
wife, but for some reason he feels he needs an ex, the subsequent
wife, he can explain to her and say, I know you're not going to
take this well, you're not going to accept readily. It's not normal
for a woman to just accept that it's going to hurt you, but I
think it's only fair that I tell you, and I think this can be done
with the mediation of marriage counselors,
because if they're going to discuss it, it's going to end up
in a match, in a fighting match, absolutely
something that you should prepare the wife for. They should go for
counseling. And he must say exactly how he's going to be doing
it after he is married to the other women, like how much of time
you will give this wife and that wife, and he will be fair and all
of that.
That even if she is not happy from an it's from an emotional
perspective, at least Islamically, she'll know that her husband is
following the rules and the laws that Sharia prescribes. And
obviously, in all of this, the issue around conjugal rights comes
plays a big role, because if he's taking on subsequent wives,
someone, somewhere along the line, one of the wives, are going to be
deprived of those rights. Yes, yes. Well, not, not necessarily.
If the man is not very old, then I mean, he is able to exercise his
rights on both sides. That's if he loves them both equally, yes, and
if the attraction is there. So there are whole lot of other
factors that come into play, but we have run out of time. Zara, it
was absolutely wonderful talking to you. I could sit here talking
to you for another hour at least, just unpacking this issue, but I
look forward to my edited version of your thesis, Inshallah, and
hopefully I will talk again sometime soon. Congratulations
again. Congratulations,
lovely,
lovely salams, to all the listeners and to you, Julie, I
mean Amin Suma, Amin, that was Zara Suleman, Director of gift of
the givers care line, talking to us about,
you know, graduating with her masters, and her thesis,
obviously, was on polygamous marriages in South Africa. That
brings us to the end of the show for today, I have overrun my time,
but thank you indeed for staying with me till next week, Monday at
the same time, take care on the roads. Uh, may Allah be with each
and every one of us inshallah and as always, Assalamu alaikum and
Khuda affairs from me. Julie Ali, you