Imtiaz Sooliman – Gift of the Givers’ angel amongst men talks about money
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great things. Old mutual is a licensed financial services
provider. What a privilege. MTS, suraman, founder and chairman of
gift of the Vega, gift of the givers, our Make Money Monday
Special Edition guest this evening. How nice of you to have
you on the show again. How are you? MTS, fine, Bruce, thank you
very much. It's nice to have you with us now. We had you on as a
shapeshifter a couple of years ago, and you told us the story of
gift of the givers, but just bring us up to speed with the work that
you've been doing in the last while.
Well, it's been a very busy last two to three years, especially the
last year locally. Well, right now we're busy with drought
interventions in the Western Cape balls, lot of balls in the area,
lot of water requirements on the west coast of Cape Town. Further
requirements in Sutherland, no water in the area. All the bowls
are dry. We're sending a team. We're drilling 200 new bowls in
Sutherland, providing fodder for the farmers, providing school
items for the kids at school, blankets, food, parcels LED lights
in Sutherland. Then last week, we got a call that muscle Bay in
lanesburg are in big trouble in terms of fodder. We did our first
delivery of fodder on Friday, Western Cape MEC for finance.
Doctor Ivan Mayer was with us when we did that. On Saturday, we
delivered to Mosul Bay. Moss Bay to Wednesday, we delivering again
to Mosul Bay Thursday in Aberdeen, in free state, they also in
trouble. And on, we've now been called by several quarters to get
involved in the protest in hamanas. We've already sent teams
there. We've spoken to the people, and by Wednesday, we should be
starting an intervention in hamanas. So there's lots of things
happening in the country and internationally. Of course, we're
involved in a big way in Syria, in Yemen, in Somalia, in Malawi, in
Zimbabwe, lots of things happening. How many people are
working under the banner of gift to the givers? Now, locally, 120
people, and that's five offices. Is that all? I mean, it's
you're taking on so many projects. I'm understand, actually, that
it's so few. Yeah. Well, the you know, sometimes we have a lot of
staff. You have reduced efficiency. Sure, we are very good
project managers. We have teams that are dedicated, because nobody
works here for the money. They work for the heart and for the
spirit, and if dedicated, committed people who don't know
the difference between Monday and Sunday, between a weekly and a
public holiday, the only aim is to help people in need in any part of
the country, in any part of the continent, and in any part of the
world, if you're not paying them, they're not employees. So you
don't they don't fall under the Labor Relations Act, so they can
work seven days a week.
I don't have volunteers. The only volunteers we have are the medical
and search and rescue teams that come with us on international
missions. And you don't need that every day. No, but these are
professionals, and that's the point that you make here is that
this is a career. It is a professional. These are people who
could go and work in a in a large corporation, if they chose to do
so. They happen to choose to spend their time
making improving other people's lives, and are remunerated on that
basis. Yes, but a lot, lot of the people that work for us are lower
level. You know, employees to be given opportunity to people. They
are packers, vehicle drivers, truck drivers, people, account,
goods, back, parcels, deliver them. And a few people you know,
of slightly higher level in terms of degrees and diplomas to deal
with government, did to deal with projects and to set up projects.
And at the same time, those of lower level are trained. They
given skills. They improve. They go up the ladder, they get
opportunity. They get like, for example, in nice now, last year,
two ladies were given the task of running the entire operation, a 20
million operation for the fires in nizana, two ladies, you know, from
the organization, who went up the ladder, who learned the skills and
ran an entire project from the ShopRite warehouse in nizana. Now,
you've been going for nearly a quarter of a century. It's hard to
believe that you have and the latest figures I've got is you've
done, you've delivered aid of about 1.8 billion rand, 42
countries. I mean, are those numbers accurate? Was that number
risen 2.3 billion 243 countries.
And the funding? I mean, that's two point anybody who's ever tried
to raise funds at a cake sale for a new roof for the church or
whatever the case might be, knows how hard it is to raise that kind
of money in order to do good, no matter, people are cashed up.
Times are tough. Where does that 2.3 billion rand come from? South
Africans? People always think we've got international funders.
We don't have international funders, but I need to qualify
that. In recent years, some money has come from international people
who've seen our work on international media, and maybe
through websites you know, or online kind of following our work.
And you get maybe $10 from here, five euros from there, 50 euros
from some.
Else you get get that kind of money, but there's no active
soliciting for money, either internationally or locally. 99.9%
of that money is from ordinary South Africans. South Africans,
again, who see our work. The media travels with us. They publicize
what we do. People are happy with what we do, and you get accused,
people waiting to deposit to support you for what you do, and
it comes both in cash and in kind. You qualified as a medical doctor.
You had your own private practice in Peters maritsburg, late 80s
into the early 90s, and you gave that up, I think it was just after
the 1994 elections, and you decided, no, it's time to actually
concentrate on gift of the givers. And you started that, you had
started that, I think, in 1992 that became a big focus of your
life. At a time of huge optimism in South Africa, you saw that even
amongst the optimism and the sense that Madiba magic was was
prevalent, that there'd always be need, not only here, but anywhere
in the world. Well, actually, it wasn't something that I thought
about. It was a spiritual instruction given to me. I never,
in my wildest dreams, thought I was going to form an organization.
I never even had that idea to form an organization. I was in Turkey.
I met a spiritual teacher, a Sufi master. In 1991
I went to a Muslim holy place where people of all religions, all
countries, all nationalities were there. I saw them getting along
very harmoniously, even though the thinking was different, the ideas
are different, the concepts are different. But the one thing stood
out, there was love between people. There was understanding
and rational behavior between all of them. And I loved what I saw. I
came back in 92/6
August, 1992 it was a Thursday night. The spiritual master looked
in the eye, and to cut it short, just told me you will form an
organization. The name will be gift of the givers. You will be
serving all people of all races, of all colors, of any geographical
location, of any political affiliation, and this is an
instruction for you for the rest of your life. And then he told me,
whatever you do is done through you and not by you. So there's no
place for ego. It's a spiritual connection, and you are guided in
what you do. So what role does money then play in your life?
Because this is the Make Money Mondays Special Edition feature
where we talk to people, and recently we've been said I made a
start with Kate Turkington, Auntie Kate, also very spiritual person,
Professor Jonathan Jansen, Max dupreer, and people, people who
have got good, good brains in their heads. Um, to whom money is
useful and nice, but people don't. They don't, don't obsess about it.
I get a sense that you don't either, unless it's, of course,
the money that you need to do the work. Yes, you know money is
important, you know, it's you've got families. You've got children.
You have to give them an opportunity. You don't want to be
standing for a handout. You don't want to be among the unemployed.
You don't want to be dependent on others. So, yes, you need a
certain amount of money, you know, to to live, to have a home, to
have education, to have medical aid, to take care of yourself, not
to be a burden on others, not to be a burden on the state, but to
run after, you know, totally and totally committed to quality money
all the time. We have a simple philosophy, you know, a simple
teaching, what you don't use is not yours. So you can have 1
billion, 2 billion and 5 billion, but if you're only going to spend
10 million from there, only 10 million is yours, and you're going
to spend 100 million, but you're not going to use that house, that
car, that yacht, that holiday resort, somewhere else. It's not
yours. So what are you pursuing that kind of, you know, life for a
materialistic life, chasing after things, having stress, something
that you can't use? Yeah, it's such a wonderful philosophy. What
you don't use is not yours. I mean, is that the basis of it?
Yes, but you don't use and some after you're gonna blow it away
for your hard work. I mean, somebody like a Warren Buffett, I
mean his most simple quote on giving money away was, you can
only wear one pair of pants at a time,
like you can only try one car at a time. Sleep in one bedroom at a
time. And that's the philosophy as well. I mean, when you look at
people like that, people who've made a lot of money, and Patrice
Motsepe, of course, a couple of years ago, also committed a large
portion of his family's wealth to doing good that's critical. People
have made money in business are important to your cause as well.
Do you? Do you admire the sort of financial success of the gates and
the buffets and the motsepes Yes, I hope everybody makes a lot of
money, the more people make money, and as long as they they recognize
that in their money there is a place for someone else, somebody
who needs an opportunity, not a handout, but an opportunity. So if
everybody makes money and not depend on others and use a
percentage or a portion of that money to help uplift other people,
it's very good, and I pray as many people as possible, you know, have
the means where they're not dependent on others and but
recognize that there is someone who needs that opportunity to
uplift someone else. You know, I wish those kind of people all the
best and all the success. All South Africans, by nature,
generous, absolutely, one of the most generous nations on earth.
You know, from my own experience, even.
In times of difficulty, they take out money when the economy is
down, when the petrol price is up, when it's food inflation, when
school fees are gone up, when medically rates are high, people
still dig into their pockets. They want to help each other. The night
on a fire is a classical example where people just pour their money
out to help people you know, and in the best part is people they
don't know. But the drought in Cape Town, when we made a call for
water, the water poured out from all over Johannesburg, Cape Town,
Durban, all over the country, even from the small towns and even for
international projects. And one stands out for me. I keep
mentioning this over and over again, in 2011
when we responded to the famine in Somalia, yeah, when so many
children were dying every day, there was a small school in orange
farm. The kids in that school don't have breakfast, they don't
have a lunch box, they don't have school shoes, they don't have a
jersey for winter. They walk to school. They got to that school,
they said, Somalia is in difficulty. The kids in that
school raised 40,000 men,
no, but that's that's got to be motivating. I mean, every day that
you see that kind of selfless behavior has to be absolutely
motivating. Make money. Mondays brought to you by Sun Lum, private
wealth, your wealth, our craft. Let's talk about whether or not
the founder and the chairman of South Africa's most effective
charity has got a pension? Do you have a pension plan? Nope, no, no
pension plan currently, because I don't have much earnings at the
moment. No, but, but that's the, that's the the what is so
interesting, do you anticipate, spiritually, that it'll all just
be okay, that, as you've taken care of people one day, should you
need to be taken care of that it'll happen? Yes, that's, you
know, that's a given. That's a spiritual teaching. Of course, you
gotta tie your camel too. But the spiritual teacher told me, like,
I'm like a spiritual teacher to you, I'm also like a father to
you. And in everything that I tell you, it will happen, you will be
taken care of, you will be looked after, and everything will be
worked out. And up till now, you know Bruce, I don't know. I'm not
a rich man, but I'm a satisfied man, and I'm, I'm a contented man,
and everything that and I needed so far I have, and that's an
extraordinary faith, isn't it? Yes, you know, this can think,
cannot be drawn by anything else but faith. Yeah, my father told
me, You're crazy. You said you got, you know, we spent all this
money on your education, and you're doing what? Yes, that he
said, What are you doing? You know, as you said, You are a
doctor, and you got three practices, and you doing so well.
Do you know what you are doing? I'm afraid for what's going to
happen. And several years that he passed on now, you know, two years
ago, and several years ago, he told me, You know what? I'm very
proud of you. I wish I had the faith that you have. I wish, you
know, I had the belief that you have carry on, my son, it's the
best thing you could have ever done. Isn't that nice? I mean that
acknowledgement and that appreciation for for the work,
yes, you know, and when he saw the type of people getting assistance,
he met McGowan's father, Malcolm McGowan, you know, in in Bramley,
before my father passed on. And he saw that, you know, that this
hardship in McGowan's eyes and in his family, and he saw the
hardships in so many other people's eyes, and he said, You
know what? Just carry on. You're helping so many people. It's a
blessing. God Almighty, you say his words, God Almighty will take
care of you. Again, we were teaching that when parents pray
for their children, you know those prayers are answered.
You grew up in potchefs, through him in northwest. You did go to
school in Durban and eventually to the University of Natal, medical
school, medical school, as was known in those days. When, when
you the connections, the the friends that you made in those
days, have they been supportive? Do they do they do they work with
you? Do they help?
Well, you know, none of those friends are in involved with me
anymore, but when I meet them, sometimes I know, maybe in a plane
or in some city or some function, I met some friends after 20 years,
25 years, and they say, You know what? We remember you. We grew up
with you. We support you. We pass the word around, and we tell
everybody that we knew you. So, you know, it's a warm support.
It's there. Some of them I see after years into the bank
statements, they financially support our projects. You don't,
we don't meet each other. I've met some of the friends I go to Pajaro
quite often. It's my hometown. My family is still there, but
everybody has moved on. Unfortunately, in small town, all
the kids leave, and they move in bigger cities, and most of them in
Johannesburg. So you don't see them when you go there and when
you meet those ones. And from the medical school, some of the
doctors you've come across, you know, again, fully supportive. You
see them in medical functions. But in essence, we've built a new team
people from across the country, across race, across religion,
because when the school that we went to that time were one race
schools, you know, so you didn't have friends from other colors.
You didn't have them in medical school. So it's a new friendship
that is developed after New South Africa and people from different
fields joining you. Do you have any extravagances whatsoever? Do
you ever allow yourself an extravagance of any kind? No, no.
I'm a very simple person. I.
Don't have any I don't have any materialistic thoughts or desires.
I had a good practice. I changed cars, you know, six times in five
years. You know, I traveled overseas. Nothing of that kind of
things interests me anymore. I have no desire for clothes, no
desires for holidays, no desire for outings, because all I see is
suffering of people. And when you see suffering of people, your own
life takes a backseat. But at the same time, whilst having that, you
have a dichotomy. You don't want to neglect your family. You don't
want them to lose out on what you've seen in terms of travel
early in life. So you try to have a balance, take them out. But of
course, it's not as much as I should read when I was a doctor. I
can't take it into Sony place like I could do when I was a doctor.
But their understanding. They've they've met the spiritual teacher.
They appreciate my work, and all of them want to get involved with
me in what I do. But are you, I mean, are you able to send them to
university? Have you been able to to give them the same
opportunities as your parents afforded you? You haven't sort of
become obsessive about No, my children will will suffer along
with me, or my children will go without, no, no, no. You know, in
fact, they were better off than me, all my my, you know, because
of the earlier years, all of them to go to varsity with no student
loans to pay. I had student loans, I had bank loans, I had bursaries,
all to be repaid back. I didn't have my father bought me a car.
You know, when, only when I qualified. They got cars much
earlier. They had flats and where they were studying all that kind
of stuff. It's an important perspective, isn't it? I mean,
this is your choice. It's not their choice. If they choose to
follow, if they choose to support, that is, you know that that'll be
their journey, but it's an important distinction to draw, I
guess. Yes, you know, each one must have its or his own decision
or her decision tomorrow, they mustn't say. I forced them to do
something even in the career choices. I said, choose what you
want. And my first daughter changed course three times. I
said, The Father is paying it's fine, so she's but I said, at the
end of the life and father is not here, you must be happy with what
you chose. Yeah. And eventually she became a dietitian. My son
became a computer engineer worked for multi choice, and suddenly,
last year, gave up a top paying job, resigned and joined me. Did
you say? What are you thinking? I spent all this money on your
education? I said, you realize what kind of life this is? I said,
I've messed up my family life. I told my wife, please explain to
him. Did you know this? He must be very careful before he comes in.
I've ruined my life, you know, in terms of in inverted commas, no
family time, big sacrifices to build what it is now, 26 years
later, I said, if he wants to come in, he can come in, but he does
not go the same road that I went. But here is something interesting.
I mean, you married, I'm assuming fairly young. Your wife signed up
for a different life. She married the doctor with three practices,
who got, you know, five cars in six years. That was a good life.
How did you bring her along on the journey? Well, when it started,
the doctor didn't have three cars. The doctor was still studying and
had no means that time to, you know, dependent on them. So she's
got a full full circle from nothing to lots, back to not very
much when I, you know, when I lost my practice? Well, I basically
gave it up. My wife stood two o'clock in the morning in a flea
market selling scouts. There's a huge sacrifice she made because
and then she ran a preschool because we had no income when I
closed she, in fact, when I was in Bosnia, she said, I have to close
these practices. These patients are coming in, sitting for three
weeks, some is going to die waiting for you. I said, close
them and and, you know, and she's she's sacrificed all the way. She
was at me when she met the teacher. She's a disciple of
spiritual order. She's a head, she's the head of the counseling
division in gift of the givers. She's also a founder member, and
she has no regrets for what we've
done. Does what scares you about money. Does anything scare you
about money? Do you have faith it'll greed? Yeah, tell me about
greed, greed and extravagance and power. You know, I have no issue.
Money is not a problem. Yeah, it's the people's attitude to money
that's the problem. Yeah, no, people who will do anything
possible to make money. And as I said, you can only spend, you
know, what you what you spend, is yours. What you don't use is not
yours. And the kind of things people will go to to make that
kind of money, losing jobs, state capture, greed in corporate
companies, you know, the Stein of issue, so on, KPMG, so many
different types of things. How many jobs get affected? How many
lives get affected? How many because of personal greed and want
and want and want, and yet, that money could be put to more active
use improving the lives of so many millions of people, and you would
be great person who's greedy would still have plenty for himself, but
in the process, would have brought so many people online and help
them. I'm just Solomon. It's always such a pleasure to have
you. Thank you so much for again, making time, for joining us on the
Money show Make Money Mondays for other people, founder and chairman
of gift of the givers.