Hosai Mojaddidi – Working With Muslims Perspectives and Suggestions for Multicultural Counseling
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So the class we're taking is it's a multicultural counseling class,
there's about 12 of us in it at the moment. And we're just trying
to go through different cultures that we're not maybe familiar with
in order to try and I guess more, familiarize ourselves with it, and
maybe
try and see from different perspectives, any
potential issues, or maybe conflicts or biases that we may
encounter in future clients, and ourselves.
So I was wondering, did you have mental health experience? Do you
have any advice on that? Great, well, first of all, thank you for,
you know, for doing something like this because it shows your
interest in you know, and trying to understand and bridge the gap.
Cultural competency is really important. And it is something
that's critical for mental health providers to know about because in
many cases, it can prevent care, right, if if someone is, has
predisposed ideas, or biases, as you said, or just prejudices or or
just lack of understanding, they may not even feel comfortable to
seek help. And so if we can somehow address those concerns,
then we can hopefully encourage people to be more open to seeking
out services. So I want to applaud you for doing something like this.
As far as Yeah, some of the barriers to for access of care
that we've come across from our community, because it is something
certainly, we've witnessed, and we've had to grapple with, in our
community that in immense stigma with mental health.
There is when I started, for example, back in 2009, when we
started our website, mental health for Muslims, I started with my
cousin who's a clinical psychologist. And then I had a lot
of experience in the community, because there was such a stigma,
to seek professional help, they would seek out people like myself,
or other religious leaders in the community, assuming that whatever
they were going with, through whether it was their own personal
struggles with anxiety, depression, things that we knew
symptomatically had, you know, we already knew how to define those
things. But because of their lack of knowledge of this, these were
mental health issues, they assumed that they were spiritual crises.
So that is for the Muslim community, a big issue where a lot
of people self diagnose and presume, falsely, that what
they're presenting is a lack of spirituality, there's a disconnect
there. So they sometimes are so turned off by the idea of actually
seeking professional health help, because in their worldview, that's
just not a possibility. That has to be a spiritual explanation for
why I'm sad and depressed. Maybe I should pray more, maybe my, maybe
God is not happy with me. So they'll make all these deductions,
which are, of course, most of the time not, there's no basis to
them, other than their own lack of awareness. So we found that that's
a big challenge, where a lot of times the stigma to mental health
is that people associate that you have, you know, it's unfortunate,
but there are a lot of people who equate mental health issues with
some intelligent deficiencies or other character quality
deficiencies, not realizing that it's just the same as if you, you
know, had a health problem, you wouldn't presume anything about a
person's character or their, you know, their, their, who they are,
if they had a health issue, but unfortunately, when it comes to
mental health, that's the stigma, right? Like, oh, that they're,
that person is not well, they're crazy, God forbid, do they use
these sorts of terms that are really just
not right at all. But that's the that's the conclusion that's often
made that mental health means that someone's not right. And they're
almost irreparable. So I don't want to associate myself with that
at all. It has to be a spiritual issue that I can find a spiritual
solution for. That's probably the biggest barrier that we've come
across, within our own community. But we have made some strides
because since we started that website in 2009, where there are
very few practitioners, and these conversations, even in the
community weren't really open. We have come like almost light years
in the past, you know, how many years now? Has it been right? 11
or so years, I've seen in my own personal experience, so many more
conferences, events, programs at the mosque every Friday, you'll
see family nights and programs where Imams even and people who
are typically, you know, who were in the past may not have been too
open about this topic. Now, it's a very common thing where mental
health issues are brought up as community wide, you know, program,
that the programming that that is important for everybody to hear.
So they'll put it, you know, sometimes even in the Friday
sermon, they'll have addresses that talk about domestic violence,
substance abuse, depression, anxiety, all of the very common
disorders that we're seeing on the rise as a people as a species,
right. They're addressing those to the kids.
So we have made some some really great strides we've bought, we've
also seen a huge surplus of more practitioners. There's more,
there's something I don't know if you're familiar with, but you may
have heard of it. There's the Khalil Center, which is probably
the leading national now organization of counselors that
have, you know, offices all over the US and are branching out, I
think, even into Canada, where they are really taking the lead.
In the in the discussions around mental health, there's there's
basically a service center, but they have chapters throughout the
US, and they provide services, mental health services to the
community. So there are organizations like that, and many
others that have come up within just I would say, the past 10 to
12 years, it's been really incredible to witness. Yeah,
that's great. Sounds like there's it's really growing the support.
So being, hopefully new therapists or counselors, what could we do to
help try and also bridge that gap? So they feel accepted? Or they're
able to receive help? That's a great question. Again, I thank you
for asking that question. I think there should be some sort of
cultural competency training about Islam and Muslims first, before
someone even considers taking on Muslim clients, because the issues
that do come up oftentimes are so enmeshed with their spiritual
identity as or their religious identity as Muslims, so it's very
hard to divorce those things in a therapy session if, and that's
also one of the barriers that we found is that people are reluctant
to go to see non Muslims because they think they're not going to
understand what I'm going through, or why this particular incident is
affecting me the way they are, as opposed to a Muslim who at least
has that context they understand. Right? So I think when you have
just a very simple, like, you know, primary, you know, refresher
about Islam, to know, the beliefs, what the beliefs are, what the,
the daily, you know, life of a Muslim entails, will give I think
the provider, a really better lens to understand why certain things
may affect their client, that maybe it's not understood by it or
seen, and other people have different faiths and backgrounds.
Because for Muslims, Islam is not just a religious identity that we
ascribe to on certain days or around holidays, or, you know, we
just kind of it's a label or something that we it's actually a
lifestyle. So it's, um, very much affects everything that we do all
the choices that we make our worldview. So if you don't have
that understanding, then it might be difficult for you to understand
why someone you know, won't take your guidance on Well, have you
tried this? Or have you tried that, because in their particular
worldview, that's just not an option, like, for example,
divorce, you know, I as someone who's been doing spiritual
counseling for a long time, for Muslims, keeping the marriage
intact is so important. And it's, we take marriage very, very
seriously divorces permissible in the event that the marriage is
just not salvageable. But you really do try your best to save
the relationship, especially when children are in the mix. So that
is such an essential, you know, belief that that is very rooted in
many Muslims in their in their just values. So if you have a
practitioner who doesn't have that same understanding, and they will,
in a very first, you know, session, suggest that maybe you
should just dissolve the relationship, you know, if there's
like a counseling session, for example, that you guys just don't
seem very compatible, you fight a lot. There's too many other
variables, you know, finances and laws. And so they just do so
quickly that maybe the marriage is just run out of, you know, like,
there's really no point because in the western or the, you know,
their context, it's just seems like that's the most practical
thing to do, then the client will likely feel like, okay, see,
they're just quick to rush us to divorce, they don't really care
about trying to really help us. And that is actually a very common
complaint. I've heard from Muslim clients who have gone to see non
Muslims, they always come back saying, no, they're too liberal
minded, or they don't have the same family values, same
understanding of like, even in laws, you know, a big issue that
you'll find if you ever are to have clients in the Muslim
community are the families are very enmeshed in Muslim marriages.
So it's not so simple to tell, or it's not easy to tell your client
well, you should just create boundaries with your mother in law
and tell her not to come over, you know, those kinds of things in our
western sensibilities, they make sense because it's like boundaries
were very clear for us, and we were more empowered to have that
sort of those lines, you know, really clear, but for Muslims,
it's very difficult because it will absolutely impact the entire
marriage. You know, if you were to draw such clear lines with your
mother in law
or your father in law, it could potentially lead to a divorce.
It's that serious, right? So I think having that knowledge that
there's certain values that, you know, people have Muslim, you
know, background or whatever, regardless of the culture, it's
pretty shared, because of their faith, that they adhere to
strictly, therefore, I have to kind of adjust my tone or my
approach to not just, you know, dismiss those things or to
overlook those things. In my, in my, in what I provide a service
that I provide. So, yeah, you've been mentioning a lot about
family. And I know how important it is. But there's also it seems
like, almost a community, like family within the faith itself,
like it's, it may be separate from like the, you know, the family
family, but it still feels like they that it's treated as kind of
a larger family within the faith. Absolutely, that's a very, very
onpoint we do the community is very, we do see ourselves as a one
large body, although we're definitely not a monolith. There's
a lot of variety. But we are, it's part of our belief system to see
ourselves as one body. So we call, for example, the Muslim community
at large is called the OMA, which is like a nation of Muslims. And
so there's a lot of, you know, teachings in the faith that say
that, we should really try to strengthen our brotherhood or
sisterhood. So if you're a part of a larger community, wherever you
live, yes, you see your community members as extended family
members, in many cases. And there there is, of course, we have, you
know, there's there's lines, I mean, it's not that they would
know all of your private, you know, information, we're not like
that. But it's to, you do take into consideration the larger
impact of your choices, and decisions, as an individual on the
on the community as well, we're not so separate, that we just
don't care. Like, for example, reputation is a very big deal, you
know, in many of our Muslim cultures, like, so a lot of people
will take that into consideration, like, how is up how is the
community going to view me, you know, if I take this decision, or
if I take this decision, so sometimes those factors are also
really important and why they may choose to go one way or another.
And if a provider isn't aware of that, and again, they give very
Western ideas to people who are not defined by those ideas, it may
cause just the lack of, you know, connection, and then you might not
see that that client again, because they just feel like well,
they don't get me, they don't get me, they're just giving me very
western perspectives, about things. And I just I don't agree
with that, that's not my philosophy, or that's not my
viewpoint. So but it can be, you know, bridged by just having more
understanding and education about those things, because I've
actually sent friends of mine, who, who didn't have success or
couldn't find Muslim therapists in their area, we've done some
research and looked for people who in their, you know, description of
their services, they actually do describe that they do have
competency around certain cultures. And they found great
success, like that person did their due diligence, or their, you
know, they did their part to learn more about different cultures. And
it did help the way that they were able to provide service, I think
it's, it's so it is possible to do that.
Yeah, so in your experience, do when you're dealing with clients,
do you incorporate the family a lot more? Or is it still kind of
an isolated thing that you just kind of use it? Use your knowledge
and experience as a background? That's a good question. I always
do like to know, I mean, depends on the circumstance. I've worked
with individuals I've worked with, you know, actual families, where
the mother or the father and the children are all kind of there,
and then couples. So I think it just depends on each situation,
but if I feel that there is some involvement, you know, metal, some
behavior, for example, in a in a marital context, then yes, I will
want to know, the, you know, more specific details about the family
and the relationship that individuals have. Because, you
know, there are some filial piety for example, in Islam is very
important. It's one of the top, you know, beliefs or tenants of
the faith is that we worship God. And we, you know, we have our own,
you know, there's a lot of ritualistic practice that we have,
but one of the most important things that a Muslim must do or
should do, is to show reverence and respect to their parents. So
we, that's a very big part of the Muslim, you know, mindset. So
it's, you know, filial piety just having that so that can sometimes,
though posed, you know, issues when it comes to the marital
relationship because a spouse may be completely conflicted if they
have a very overbearing parent who is dictating to them, how they
should be in their marriage and you know, everything that they
should be doing in their marriage because they don't have good
boundaries, then the child or the spouse may feel
I'm really torn, because they feel that they're doing something
spiritually wrong, like if they go against their parents, right. So
this is where someone like myself who has a spiritual background,
can actually give them a better balanced view that you don't have
to pick me or your wife, or your husband or your mom or dad, right?
It doesn't have to be like that you can actually have compromise.
And maybe it's your mom or your dad that needs, we need to bring
them in and talk to them about, hey, listen, you know, we get that
maybe you're having a really difficult time, you know, with
your own personal situation, or because you know, a lot of our
older generation, they get, they create some unhealthy codependency
sometimes, because being here in a foreign land, not having their
family from back home, they can create those co dependencies with
their children that get very unhealthy, and they're not aware
of it. And so sometimes having a third person like myself, or maybe
a religious leader, who can come in and tell the mom and dad, like,
listen, yes, you have rights in Islam, and your children should be
dutiful and respectful to you. But you also have to respect their
boundaries. And this is what that entail, so we can help to kind of,
you know, dissipate the situation that way. But there have certainly
been instances where, yes, you have to involve the family if the
relationship or the individual themselves, because there's been
individual cases as well, where the parents are just not
understanding, you know, the conflict that their child has,
individually, and they need more education on mental health issues,
for example, like depression, anxiety, what does that mean? How
can you better help them to, you know, help themselves instead of,
you know, just, you know, shaming or blaming, or kind of getting
into that negative space, because you're frustrated with your child,
or you're frustrated with this individual. So sometimes it is
necessary to get the family involved.
We also mentioned, using the mom with the parents as well, is that
something you think would be, you know, acceptable in the mental
health field to try and incorporate the spiritual leaders,
I think it's absolutely something to keep as an option in the event
that you're dealing with people who are very religiously committed
people, because, you know, they sometimes have that tunnel vision,
or just, you know, they can't really see beyond what what you're
telling them. So to have an ally, who's in the community, a
religious leader, who you can outsource when needed, or to bring
into a mediation, for example, or some conversation to help to, you
know, again, dispel certain false ideas, because there are there's,
there's a lot of there's sometimes just cultural things that get
confused or passed on as religious ideas that any mom or even a
female teacher could certainly elucidate and clarify that,
listen, that's a cultural idea. That's not religious, right. So if
you are concerned about your spiritual well being or doing the
right thing, let me just tell you that that practice is nothing to
do with Islam. And it's actually just, you know, from your culture.
So sometimes it can be very useful to a practitioner to have a person
in that capacity to, you know, to help to outsource when needed,
like I said, but I would, I would definitely look to your community
and see if there is an opportunity to create a relationship with the
local mosque, where they're, they might have existing counseling
services, and you could even work with and pair up with providers
from the mosque or from the community center, to, to help with
clients, when you get them or just, you know, consult on certain
issues. That's absolutely something you should I would
recommend doing.
Okay, well, and kind of in the same vein, where should where
could, me and my classmates go to find more information so we can
kind of further our understanding, I know you have the website, the
mental health for muslims.com.
But what other resources do you think would be viable for us?
That's great. There's a lot of I mean, you know, if we're if we're
talking specifically about learning about Islam, there's
great many, many different websites or organizations, one
that comes to mind that I personally no and have worked
with. And I think they do a phenomenal job of explaining a lot
of the core beliefs of Muslims and Islam in a way that Westerners
totally get and understand because they that's what they do, is an
organization called the Islamic networks group. And they're
actually based here in California in the South Bay. I worked with
them for a long time, but they have a national reach. They're in
pretty much all the major cities. They do. What they do is they
provide trainings, actually cultural competency trainings to
all different institutions, hospitals, police stations,
schools, universities, middle schools, like it really everywhere
corporations that have called on them, they will come and they will
actually do presentations on or trainings that will give you know
people more just general basic information
You're about Islam, really bring them up to speed about a lot of
the things that we talked about. And they also have great content
on their website that you could like, there's an FAQ, most
commonly asked questions about Islam, a lot of things that people
who have no idea about what Muslims believe in, will, will
get. And they I mean, they work, the office itself, there's non
Muslims that work there. So it's a very interfaith very just American
organization that is trying to make Islam more reachable, or, you
know, more approachable for for people who are outside the faith.
So I think I can provide that in the chat. If you'd like their
website, I can, so you can look it up. But I think they have great
resources on their website. Yeah, that'd be great. Yeah. Well,
another thing just from calling down and writing to the local
Leavenworth center, there seems so open, they mean, you're welcome.
Within, you know, a few hours, I got an email back, and then you
know, a phone call. So it was amazing to see how open it is that
we can just, if we have questions, or we just want to clarify or
anything, really. And that's very much part of the Muslim tradition,
Muslims generally don't. We don't do like missionary work, for
example, we don't go out and we don't, you know, proselytize that
way. But we do invite and we're very open when people ask
questions like, you could go to any mosque. And you know, in terms
of if you if your students or your fellow students were interested in
observing, I'm sure they would arrange a meeting where you could
I mean, right now, with COVID, it might be a little different. But
post, you know, when things open up, or even online, they might
have programs that are for the general community, or for anybody
to tune into, I'm sure they will be more than happy to give you
access to that. And generally, that's, that's the experience a
lot of people have, they're usually surprised like, oh, wow, I
could just go in and talk to people and sit and watch the
prayers. And nobody says anything. I'm like, Yeah, because we're,
we're, we have nothing to hide. And we're very proud of our faith.
And you know, people are interested, we're very honored by
that. So we're happy to accommodate it, even like with
Munir and myself, we were very happy to, you know, talk to you,
because it's, it's, it's actually really nice to have people who are
interested in learning from sources instead of just turning on
news, media or going to random play, you know, places that speak
for us, whereas we can speak for ourselves in these circumstances.
So we're really happy to do that. So thank you. Well, thank you. I
know you gotta get going here in a couple of minutes. But just want
to say thank you. And do you have anything you would like to say to
my classmates? Well, first of all, again, I want to thank you, Eric,
for coordinating this and all of you for being so sensitive, I
think really just having open conversations and not being I know
that, you know, I'm very American. I mean, I don't know if you can
pick up I hope. I mean, I didn't explain but my background,
although I was born, I want to say I was really raised here I have no
memories of against. And so I very much consider myself American. And
I think I know that part of American culture is political
correctness. And we're sometimes so worried about offending people.
And like, oh, I don't want to ask too many questions, or, you know,
it's religious, especially around beliefs, right? We don't want to
politics beliefs, or certain things we don't talk about openly
in our society. But for Muslims, we actually really do welcome
those questions. And I think you will find that experience, as we
just said, across the board with Muslims, we're actually happy to
answer questions. So feel like free or to do that. And I will
make myself available for anybody who has follow up questions to
this interview, I can send you my email address. I do a lot of
interfaith work. I speak publicly, nationally. So I'm very
comfortable talking to people. I have no problem answering
questions, even if you think like, that's a dumb question, or should
I even ask, don't worry, you know, people about my hijab about women,
women's rights, I do entire presentations on women's rights in
Islam, I talk about interface stuff, so there's really no topic
that I would feel a little intimidated by the answer. So I
think if you if they're interested, I can certainly make
myself provide my contact information for specific
questions. And also for resources, because our time is limited here.
I don't have that off the top of my head, but I can make perhaps
like a resource sheet with more resources for you and, and even
look to registries that I'm familiar with, to see if there's
something more to your locality that that might help you in this
regard. So I can do that. As you know, after after this offline.
Yeah, that'd be amazing. Do you mind if I share your I have your
contact info email notes, can I share you know if I can give you
actually this email address. The other one is for personal use, but
the one that I'm posting right there, that's more for general and
I just did helps me to filter you know, between family and business
and all the other stuff that I get. So yeah, this second email
address is, is please feel free to share it with your students. And
and anything I have. I'm on line also, I'm on Instagram, I'm on
Facebook, I'm on Twitter, so people are on social media. My tag
is the same. And I do write a lot so I have a lot of talk
Should I give but I also write a lot. So you can check out posts,
if you're interested kind of seeing, you know, different I
write on mental health advocacy. So that's perfect. I really
appreciate this again.
But I guess we'll wrap it up now since you got to get going here in
one minute. Yeah, yeah, in a couple of minutes. Unless you had
any final questions I can, I can stay on for a couple of minutes.
I don't really have any leftover.
So one quick one. And because all of my classmates are female, and
you're talking about females, in, in Muslim community, I think a lot
of times they're viewed as weak or maybe not as equal. But that's not
true. And I was wondering if you can kind of Sure, well, I hope I'm
example of that, that we're definitely not shy, timid. And,
you know, that's me, those are just tropes. And unfortunately,
the media has definitely stereotyped us down to just that.
But if you actually study Islam, or talk to people, some women, you
will see that that couldn't be farther from the truth, we're very
empowered, because, you know, looking at the history of Islam
and Muslims 1400 plus years ago, you'll see that a lot of the
rights that Western women and women and other civilizations and
societies have gone have received just in the past, maybe 100 years
or so, most of them women were given those rights, you know,
centuries ago, the right to vote the right to inherit the right to
work the right to own property, a lot of those things were given to
us, it was just part of our fate. So we've had that for centuries.
So I think what we see though, are is, is cultural, so a lot of I
mean, I come from a cultural, like, I'm a cultural Ivana son,
right, where our introduction to events that happened after 911, it
was put on the map. And the instant images you see are people
wearing that, you know, they call the zookeeper, the beekeepers, you
know, blue, the chaga, right, which is, you know, an outfit
that's traditional to the Afghan culture, and it actually predates
even Islam. So people don't know that, that that was something that
is even after, you know, the liberation and the Taliban were
dismantled, and all you know, the America and the troops and the
Western troops entered, you will still go to many places, and
alongside of the women still wear that it's a cultural part of their
identity. So it's not part of Islam, right. But things like
that, that I think are really important for people to understand
the difference between culture and the religion, because the religion
itself is very liberating to women, you know, we and I could
give you I mean, the presentations I do, that's exactly what I do. I
go over the history, I talk about historical figures, I talk about
all of the rights that are in that are in the Scripture, from both
the Quran and the Hadith, which are the sayings of the Prophet
Muhammad, where we're showing clear example and evidence of the
fact that women have always had rights in Islam. And it's just a
matter of systems, right? Patriarchy is real. And it
definitely is, you know, in every corner of the world. And when you
see those systems in place, then sure it's going to present as
though, you know, the women may not have certain rights, but not
that's not from a religious standpoint. And that's why you see
Western Muslim women very much more vocal, because they're not,
you know, under a lot of those systems, right, we can be more
vocal here. So we you find Muslim women, and we we have, you know,
Rashida to leave we have Ohan Omar there in politics, you know, our
first two Muslim women, and, and Paul political positions. So if we
were really like the stereotypes, and a lot of the Hollywood films
and all of these other, you know, areas where we're just we don't
speak and we can't do anything, we can't move without our husbands
permission, you would not see so many up and coming. Women who are
very strong, very vocal, very outspoken, who drive, you know, do
things that, again, stereotypes may may say otherwise. But we're
proof that that's just not simply true. And those are,
unfortunately, just you know, oppressive systems and government
systems that are not in line with the faith. But the presentation I
have is actually, I think it'd be great. I don't know if there would
be an opportunity, but if it's something you want to talk about
offline, maybe we can share some of those I know it's more you
know, with with the whole class