Hosai Mojaddidi – Interfaith Chat How Does Islam & Christianity Adapt Itself to Reflect Our Rapidly Changing Times
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We begin in the name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most
Merciful. And I'd like to open with a greeting of universal peace
for all of you. We say in Arabic as salam Wa alaykum, and that just
is translated SPSP upon you. I wanted to really acknowledge
Marcia and the team at Interfaith interconnect for hosting these
beautiful programs that I've been honored to be a part of for
several years now. So when the invitation came, of course, I
accepted it. So thank you so much for having me here. I do have a
presentation, I'm going to try to get through the slides as quickly
as possible. So let me go ahead and screenshare. So this question
which Moshe mentioned, the topic of today was really interesting to
me. How does your religion adapt itself to reflect changing times?
And I was curious, and it maybe I can discover that after I speak,
in terms of how this question came about. And the questioner who
posted this, I kind of am interested to know, maybe where
this was, you know, it was as a result of just seeing a lot of the
changes that are happening in society rapidly, especially to
faith communities, or was it just a question of curiosity, so I'm
just really curious to know that, but it got me to thinking about,
first and foremost, I think in order to understand Islam 's
position on this concept of changing or reforming or renewing
phase, it's really important to understand how Islam defines
itself or is defined by, of course, in our understanding by
God. So Muslims believe that Islam is a perfect and complete system
of life. Or in Arabic, we call this word Deen. It's not just a
religion, which is, you know, of course, a faith belief system. But
it can also be, you know, just simply someone's understanding
that this Islam, according to our understanding is much more than
that it actually affects every aspect of one's life. And in the
Quran, we have a verse here from chapter five, verse three, where
God actually tells us that he has completed your I have completed
your religion for you perfected my blessings upon you. And I'm
pleased with Islam as your religion. So we understand this to
me that Islam is timeless, that as a religion, it's perfect, and it
doesn't need to necessarily change itself or adapt itself. But in
terms of new emerging issues, or things that arise as we evolve,
and as our societies grow into different directions, there is of
course room for that. So I thought maybe first, we could lay the
foundation of what this system looks like. I'm sure many of you
know the term Sharia, which in Arabic really just means a path
that leads to water, water being a life source. And so the Sharia,
which is aesthetic law, encompasses five objectives. And
so everything that Muslims do or don't do, is actually understood
to have the objective of preserving one or all five of
these specific objectives. So first and foremost, the
preservation of our faith. So everything, all of the rules that
we have, as Muslims are to preserve one's faith, preserve
life, preserve one's intellect, or mental well being, preserve
lineage, and family, and then preserve wealth and property. So
if you look at the entire body of Islamic law, you'll find that
everything can be routed back to one or five, one or all five of
these, what we call classes or objectives. So that's the first
thing I just wanted to explain to again, lay a foundation of
understanding what this complete system looks like. Next, we have
something that's very important in Islam, which is comes to us from
many of the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, who
warned about innovation or introducing new things. And if you
think logically, if something is perfect, then it would not need to
be added to right because it's complete. So this concept of
innovation, or Buddha, is specifically about introducing new
concepts to the Sharia or the understanding of what the
principles of the faith are, what the creed of the believer of the
Muslim is. So in in that respect, to add things, just because there
are things that are emerging that are not rooted in the faith or
can't be explained through existing principles, and rulings
within the face would be considered an innovation. And so
we are really there's a clear prohibition of this of introducing
new things. So we have these two specific quotes from the problem.
Ahmed peace be upon him who said, Whoever introduces into this
affair of ours, Islam, that which is not from it. And that's really
a very important concept which we'll get into, then it is
rejected. And then beware of newly introduced matters for every newly
introduced matter is an innovation. And every innovation
is misguidance. So the understanding here is that adding
new things that are not within or rooted or sourced from within the
faith itself, would be actually changing, distorting the faith and
therefore lead to misguidance. And then we have this first one that
Grodd chapter four, verse 59, which says, If you disagree about
anything, then refer back to ALLAH the messenger, which which tells
us those are our two primary sources. So in Islam, the
Scripture the Quran, and then the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad
peace be upon him are considered the two primary sources for to
derive legal rulings. And there are others as well, which we'll
get to, but this is what how the Muslim should, should arrive at
legal rulings, when new, new ideas or new issues come up, it should
be immediately sourced from the scriptures first, then the other
spices, which we'll get.
So now, in terms of, you know, new emerging ideas, certainly within
Islam, we, you know, throughout, you know, history, obviously, not
everything that human beings experience has been consistent,
and there have been many new things that have emerged because
our lifestyles have changed. And so with all of the nuance that
comes from societal changes, and and you know, other systems that
are new than then yes, Islam seeks to address certain concepts, for
example, financial transactions, you know, as many may know, within
the Islamic body of literature with, with regards to financial
transactions, we have an entire web with much to say about, about
how human beings should should should, you know, financially
maintain their wealth and be responsible with their wealth. But
obviously, financial systems have changed, we now live in a
completely different era of capitalism and banking and
interest in many, many different systems of commerce that were not
always in place. So with things like that, then the scholars have
to have a means with which to address certain new ideas, new
opportunities, and still, you know, root route to those ideas
within the faith tradition. So that process is referred to as HD
hat, which is, in English, you would call it interpretive
autonomy. And then, and here are the three parts of that what that
looks like. It's the it's an exercise, and it's something that
is the domain of people who are qualified to do this. So the
scholars are the ones who are well read in the Scripture, in the
Hadith, in the traditions of the classical scholars who've really
shaped Islamic law and jurisprudence, the scholars of
modern times would be the ones who would have this responsibility of
interpreting these new ideas. So as new concepts emerge in society,
then we would defer to the experts of Islamic law and and you know,
who had the qualifications to be able to derive rulings, so that
the the regular, you know, lay Muslim, would be able to still,
you know, fulfill their their religious obligations without
abandoning principles, or, as we've mentioned in introducing new
ideas, which would jeopardize their faith. And so the sources
that the scholars would use would be in order to make these legal
judgments are the Koran first and foremost, the prophetic tradition,
the edge mount or consensus of the great scholars of Islam. So, in
Islam, in normative Sunni Islam, we have four schools of
jurisprudence, which are founded by four independent scholars, many
of them were actually students of each other. And they are looking
at examining the evidence that was before them in the scriptures, and
from the the previous scholars that they whose works that they
studied, they derived their own opinions on certain matters. And
so a person in modern times would have to look through all of these
sources, and then use their own reasoning, their use, which is an
Arabic icon to derive a legal ruling ruling for contemporary
times, but it would be
The responsibility of the scholars to do this. So, the average Muslim
would not, you know, make these independent rulings, just to
accommodate certain things that they may want in this, you know,
in a contemporary sense, they would actually have to defer to
the scholar to be able to look for those rulings. So, that process is
called he had, and then this concept of, you know, reform or
adaptation of religion is sometimes, you know, is is, is
understood, I think, again, depending on who you ask as, as
introducing
new things or taking away certain ideas. And, you know, when we
think of reforming something, that's kind of how we understand
it, but we do have a concept that's different, but it does, I
think, explain the, the, the acceptable way of addressing new
emerging things, which is content deed, so this would be renewal,
and this is how Muslims believe that, that we can adapt to things
which is really bringing people back to, to the source of their
faith, to revive Islam, not to change it, or to adapt it, but
rather to teach it because when we see, for example, many of the
problems in the Muslim world, a lot of the social or political or
economic problems, that Muslims who know their faith would not, we
would not think that those things are rising, because people are,
because Islam is somehow static, and hasn't, you know, come up with
the times in order to accommodate all these changes, but rather,
that people have abandoned faith principles, and therefore, you
know, the certain problems have arisen because they aren't
actually implementing their faith. So essentially, that's the idea
that we need to actually revive the faith and bring these concepts
back to life, because people have parted, you know, from them. So
again, whether it's political or economic systems or social
systems, if they're not in line with the faith, then the belief is
that there will be problems that emerge. So reform, again,
according to Islam would be considered or is the idea that
Islam is somehow
it's not relevant to the time that it's in, therefore, aspects of it
need to be changed in order to accommodate those new emerging
ideas which normative Islam would reject that idea, because again,
as was mentioned, at the beginning, Islam is considered a
perfect complete system. And so there is no need to reform the
faith itself. However, we can certainly come to legal rulings
that may have that there that are unprecedented, by the process,
which was explaining, going through the Scriptures, making
sure that there is a real effort and that word HD had which I
mentioned before, it comes from the root word of Jahad, which is
to struggle to, to, to really exert one's efforts. So the much
the head or the scholar who is supposed to derive those rulings,
he or she is supposed to really look at the, the sources with
great detail and really try to comb through the body of
literature and works and everything that has been preserved
in order to derive rulings. And at the end of the day, they are, you
know, allowed, you know, because they have that position, even if
they make a mistake, it's not considered against the scholar,
if, you know, they erred in their ruling because they were sincere
in their efforts. So it's a very lofty position to have the, the
noble position of HDS. And that's why it's not for everyone. But,
again, just to kind of bring it full circle, the concept of reform
is is not something that Muslims believe Islam is in need of, as it
is considered a perfect system. But certainly when things problems
arise in societies or in communities, then we would look to
the process of TGD, which is to just renew or excuse me Revive,
revive the faith and renew people's understanding of it, not
necessarily renew or reformed the faith itself. So I hope that was
clear. And I think that's yeah, that's the final slide. So I could
stop here. And if there are any questions, I'm happy to take those
questions. Thank you.
Thank you.
So if you have any questions, I think Do they seem rooted? You
have a question? Okay. So, Ruth, you're going to need to unmute
yourself, please. Okay. I was interested in your item of
lineage. And I was curious about
how you interpret that.
Thank you. That was a wonderful question. So lineage in terms of,
you know, preservation of the family, the family bonds are very
important in Islam. And the Muslim, we have, you know, a list
of, for example, you know, sins that that are considered
enormities. And among the enormities, that God would be
displeased with is cutting off ties, for example of one's family
severing ties is considered an enormity. So really, to try to
preserve family systems between parents and children, we have the
concept of filial piety, which the child is, you know, is considered
responsible to take care of their parents. There's a verse in the
Quran, that Khurana describes that, you know, just as the
parents took care of you, when you were an infant, and not able to
you are dependent, it is your turn as they age, to take care of them.
So within that, you know, that point of preservation of family,
all of those encompass, right the way you know, and obviously, the
preservation of, of, you know, marriage between a man and a
woman, this is definitely central to Islam, preserving families and
making sure that children, children's rights are met, and
parents rights are met. And then extended family members also have
rights. So there's there's a lot of different things that would
fall under that as well.
Great, Alan, kept on mute yourself, Alan, and
mute yourself. Thank you for that. Because I that was very
interesting. I'm wondering how, how often are these changes made?
And how are they recorded? Is there a, like an ongoing recording
of changes that occurred Islam? If you say you start with a perfect
religion,
then how do you record and document those changes that that
occur during times?
How do you reconcile live at one time societies nor who's kind of
changed from what it was earlier? Sure, that's an excellent
question. Thank you so much. So part of the traditional way that
Islam has been preserved for so many centuries is what we have, we
have a concept called the isnaad tradition, which is that a person
who endeavors to become a scholar or fall, you know, becomes a
student of knowledge and then joins the path of scholarship
would actually be would have to receive licenses from previously
trained and also recognized scholars so that they become part
of this chain of transmission that goes all the way back to Prophet
Muhammad peace be upon him, because we believe that the
Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, similar to how Jesus had
disciples, he had companions, and then his companions were
responsible after he moved on, and transitioned and passed away, to
spread Islam, to the generation that they lived among, and then
their, you know, generations after them continued that that tradition
of teaching and preserving the faith tradition. So, all the way
up until today, we have many of our scholars who are recognized as
being again part of this chain within the system, and they have
licenses similar to what you would call you know, in the academic
world diplomas, of, you know, completion of certain areas of
study. And once they receive once they are accepted as being of that
level to be able to do he had, which is to be able to come up
with these rulings, then certainly those would be recorded and
preserved, because these scholars, they are known, and they usually
typically have their own, you know, they preserve their own
teachings and rulings within, you know, by way of documentation, by
way of, you know, writing books, but certainly the scholars within
our tradition, that are recognized or known globally, because and
now, even more so, because we are so interconnected. In previous
times, maybe people would actually travel far and wide and so they
would know who, who, you know, they're like, credentials wise,
they would know, you know, who's, who they're studying with, or who
they studied with. Those would all be very transparent. It's all very
known because in order to even
get into certain systems or study with certain scholars, you would
have to come with some sort of reference or a credential. So it's
a very preserved system. But yes, these things are documented and
they are known in the scholarly class and they are collected and
treated, like in book form or now perhaps electronic form. Yes,
there are the available to Yes, one to understand and read and
interpret or Yes, absolutely. So depending on regionally where you
are, you might have scholars that are localized, but those things
you could certainly acquire from, you know, from different scholars
locally. But then, in terms of globally recognized scholars, yes,
their teachings are also preserved and documented. And again, because
of the modern era with technology, we can absolutely source them, but
typically scholars, preserve their teachings in books and literature
and make those available. Okay, thank you. You're very welcome.
Thank you for the question. Okay. Let's go to Paul.
Well, please unmute.
Okay.
My question is more rather than about the system, it's about the
individual who maybe it's not necessarily appropriate. But
in Christianity, we have a soul.
Is there is there a soul in and does a person is following the
Koran and following the teachings?
is one of the goals to
have this soul achieve certain attainments will go to heaven or
paradise, what you guys talk about, but so could you describe
your version of the soul and Islam? Absolutely. It's, we
absolutely have a concept of the soul. And we believe that it is
the goal, it should be the goal of every Muslim to work on
purification of the soul. So we have an entire science in Islam
called Teskey. It and neffs, which is literally called the
purification of the soul. And this is where an individual would
really examine their spiritual diseases. We all have spiritual
diseases from, you know, being from envy, for example, or quick
being quick to anger from being miserly. There's certain there's
about 27 or so diseases of the heart that have been identified by
our great scholars of the past. And so our tradition aims to teach
all Muslims that they should be actively every single day working
on really becoming the best versions of themselves. So you
know, character development character is a very important part
of our faith. The Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him actually had a
quote that where he says, I was sent to teach the perfection of
faith, excuse me, the perfection of character. So, you know, the
virtuous qualities are certainly important for Muslims to acquire
patience, steadfastness, and courage, justice, all of the four
cardinal virtues that we find in Christianity are very shared in
Islam as well. And so this would be an active practice that every
Muslim should have, but certainly absolutely those who are in the
scholarly position. And so that's why there's so much emphasis, for
example, on self mastery, and what does Self Mastery look like? Well,
you know, we, as you may know, Ramadan is coming around the
corner. And so Ramadan is part of, you know, mastering the lower
self, you know, those base desires that can overwhelm the person,
lust, food, all of these things that we should be able to manage,
which can certainly derail or obstruct our spiritual endeavors
is something that fasting, which is something that is not obviously
inherent to just Islam, many of the previous traditions, and other
faiths have also have a practice of fasting. So fasting is one way
we do that, just for watching ourselves, you know, not using,
for example, foul language. We believe that every part of the
body was created for the worship of God, and we will be held
accountable if we use the blessings that God gave us in the
wrong way in sinful ways. So we lower our gaze, when we see things
that are inappropriate, we're supposed to redirect our gaze,
listening to things that are inappropriate. We don't take in
certain we don't consume certain foods or drink because we believe
that they have a negative and harmful effect on the body. So
that's to protect the body. So there's many things that we do as
a regular practice in order to purify and preserve the soul
because at the end of the day, that is the point of salvation
whether or not your soul was purified through practice and
worship. So, so yes, we absolutely have a very shared idea with the
Christian and I believe even the Jewish
shade around the soul. Thank you just one more follow up to that.
Then we need to go on to our next year. Okay, just one second, then
it'll be maybe it's a yes. I'm sure it'll be a yes answer, at
least I'm sure I'm pretty certain. The responsibility for the
development of one soul
when you're young, it may be isn't your necessarily your
responsibility, but when you're very young, you have your family,
and you have an aggressor of school.
So where do you place the importance of those? Are they
equally important, as important as each other, the madrasa and the
the family and raising a child to have a good soul? It's an
excellent question. In Islam, the responsibility of raising the
child up until the age of discernment squarely falls on the
family. So the the mother and father that is a trust that you
know, to have children to be blessed with children is
considered a trust from God. And so it is their responsibility to
make sure that they are raising the child with the proper
understanding of faith and exposing them to teachers. So if
they send them to madrasa or not, but that responsibility would be
on them, up until discernment, which is at the age of puberty. So
in our faith and Muslim faith, we believe that children up until the
age of puberty, are able to at that point, they're able to decide
and know, you know, God and right from wrong. And interestingly
enough, I remember reading research a while ago, the most of
the religious conversions that happen to people usually happen
around fall 13, right at the onset of puberty. So there is something
to be said about that age of awakening out of childhood,
suddenly into the reality of the world that a child has, and that
causes them to have these existential questions and seek
understanding. So at that point, then they are responsible for
themselves and the parents are certainly there to guide and
continue to help them to navigate but they are considered
accountable at that point. Thank you very much. Thank you,
everyone, please give us a round of applause. Thank you. Thank you.
And now
welcome, Pastor Steve Wilde from First Presbyterian Church,
Livermore, Pastor Steve, Well, thank you, it is, it is an honor
to follow Psy and to just be able to learn and, and appreciate so
much the thoughtfulness with which you put into that presentation, I
probably will be embarrassed with how much more thorough and
thoughtful yours is than my remarks. But it really is a
blessing, to be
able to speak on the same zoom call. And in so many ways, I think
it's a great combination. Marsha, you and others have provided such
great leadership to interfaith dinner Connect for so long, and
this will be a great similarity. But also, it's one of the beauties
of this group, I think are the conversations where we can see
distinctions amongst different faith traditions, and really value
and honor those distinctions and some similarities and so happy to
talk a bit about that. But, Marsha, for you, and for Alan, I
really do appreciate I love that Ruth is on here. And I actually
love the jim hodges I can't see your video running, but I love the
the hiking in the mountains picture just because our church,
First Presbyterian Church here in Livermore just has such a, an
appreciation for this discussion and for the ways in which people
want to respect and honor one another. And so I just feel very
humbled and very blessed to to just have my own comments and
thoughts on this. It's a it is a contrast, I think, in one sense,
because of size, you talk about sort of the foundational principle
of a perfected religion
are, you know, we're a part of the Protestant faith, where, in many
respects, we emerged out of this theological conviction of reform,
and reformation. And so I'll just say a little bit, I probably will
be much more interested in to the interaction in the conversation,
the questions that you all might have, but but the Presbyterian
Church of which we are apart, does emerge from Protestantism. And I
don't need to bore everybody with sort of European history in the
16th century. But just that that idea that Martin Luther initiated,
have a hope that the Catholic Church would would reform would
change some of its practices and the ways in which they believed
that it had strayed from not just a faithfulness to the, to what
Scripture said and who God was, but also then a disconnect from
the culture and from the world that was inhibiting the gospel,
being able to be to be shared to be able to be understood, but but
also to be able to be embraced so, so in so many ways, our
theological foundation is is kind of rooted in that reformed and
always
you're forming, being open to the ongoing transformation and the
renewing of God's Spirit at work in and amongst God's people. And,
and maybe he'll say there might be some similarities in that, we may
say what we've done in our reforming is discovering what's
always been true about God. And so maybe that's where there's a place
of commonality is that maybe we would articulate a perfection of
God. And that religion is fundamentally imperfect, because
it is human beings best attempt to articulate and formally assemble
in a way that is able to understand the perfect God. And so
reformed, it always reforming though and ongoing openness to
change. And transformation really is at the heart of who we are as a
as a denomination, at the heart of who we are, as a church.
We really believe that the spirit is still at work. And that part of
what the Spirit does in the midst of community is it, it highlights,
again, what's always been true about God. And at times, what that
means is that we take
new approaches, we come to different understandings, we, we
come to, perhaps a corrected theological conviction. And some
of the easier ones to highlight would be historically, maybe
having a more traditional view of leadership in the church, as it
relates to the role of women and the LGBTQIA plus community and,
and then over the last several decades, sort of collectively
believing that God's Spirit actually was, was working and, and
correcting our application of what is true about who God is. And so,
so we really, we open ourselves to that, and a part of how we do that
is sort of embracing the priesthood of all believers,
right, the idea that I'm a pastor, and I've been to more school than
I ever thought I would go to. But I don't have any unique access to
God that you all don't. And therefore I, I'm just humbled to
be a part of these conversations. Because whether whether it's a
Presbyterian perspective, or a Protestant perspective, or an
Episcopalian or a, or Muslim, or Jewish or skeptic, or a
scientific, I mean, we just really in humility, want to be open to
how that spirit of God speaks truth into our lives and into our
church. And so that might be a little bit of a foundational
introduction to how we approach this idea of adapting
to changes in our world is we try to take a posture of humility,
that then collectively discerns, what is true, which is to say,
sort of organizationally, from a polity structurally and
theologically, we believe that the truth of God is understood within
the context of community, so that I have a voice within that
community. But that voice is always held within the larger
communal context of how how we collectively believe God is at
work. And so that process of reform is one that not one person
dictates but that we collectively discover,
that creates beautiful opportunities and wonderful
challenges, as we tried to then share life together. Realizing
that faithful people oftentimes have different perspectives and
different experiences and come to different conclusions. And so we
really, then theologically, see that adaptation and change is held
within the context of covenant, that sort of sacred commitment
that we make with and for one another. That's rooted in our, our
being loved by God and our commitment to God that then calls
us to maintain relationship with one another. I mean, it doesn't
always end up that way. And we've had churches that have left our
denomination and obviously Presbyterianism is different than
Methodist, which is different. So there's obviously different
flavors of that, but, but at our best, we want to maintain that
covenant relationship, rooted in our commitment to God but also
then calling us to stay connected to one another. And so that I
think what that means programmatically or pragmatically
might be the distinction between technical and adaptive challenges
and technical and adaptive change. And, you know, without going too
deep into the weeds, technical challenges are more challenges
that we have the skill set, the knowledge, the experience, the
tools and the resources to address a particular challenge. And that
might be you know, the brakes of your car go out.
It seems like it's a technical problem. Your brakes are out we
have a technical solution.
Shouldn't you take it to a mechanic who has new brake pads
and has the tools needed to replace those brakes. And so a
technical problem is addressed with a technical solution. We in
the church recognize, though that oftentimes the church is faced
with adaptive problems. And adaptive problems are problems for
which we don't have the skill set or the experience or the knowledge
or perhaps even the imagination or resources to address those
challenges. And so a new, a new imagination needs to be formed to
address adaptive challenges.
An adaptive challenge may be you have a 16 year old driver in your
family who's learning how to drive doesn't quite know how to do that.
And as a result is grinding on the brakes the entire time and wears
them out disproportionately fast. You can continue to take that car
and those brakes to a mechanic and they'll replace the brakes, but
you're applying a technical solution to an adaptive problem.
And so we in the church are trying to depend upon God's Holy Spirit
that works in our midst to to have the wisdom to discern where there
are technical challenges and where there are adaptive challenges. And
again, in humility, how do we then surrender to to God's Spirit at
work among us to, to discover an adaptive way of thinking and being
God's people, and in those adaptive moments, oftentimes
change is what's realized, and, and again, within our context, not
to not to speak negatively upon any other tradition, in our
context that's led to decisions like women being able to be
pastors and to hold formal roles of leadership. And it's led to
other theological convictions that aren't as traditional. And so
that's where we try to find that balance between how we formally as
a religion, organize ourselves in a way that helps us develop a
faith that is able to embody the sort of perfection of God. Again,
I think, I think recognizing that, that perfection is, is not present
in the the religious structures that human beings create.
And since most people look like they're wonderfully tired, and
maybe even ready for a nap,
I think I'll pause and just
sort of, if that makes sense, or questions or comments that people
want to have to sort of interact with anything I'm saying.
Yeah, are you raising your hand? No, Carlton, are you raising him?
Yes. Okay, please, then mute.
We go, can you hear me? Yeah. Okay. Thank you. And, Steve, I
know, that must have been referring to me. I'm sorry. I had
my head in my hands, but I was not falling asleep. I was I was trying
to concentrate into into process what you were saying.
And I came in a little bit late. So apologies to everyone. If my
question has been already addressed.
It seems to me that there while there is certainly variation
amongst the different religions, in terms of how and to what extent
they change, to to address cultural issues.
But it also seems true that they all seem to be bound, or bound is
not the right word. They all seem to have a core limitation that
prevents them from adapting when those adaptations run contrary to
their their beliefs of their denomination. Is that a fair
statement so far? Stephen? Am I okay with that? Yeah, I think that
would be a I probably wouldn't say not a denomination. I think you're
saying you're articulating Well, the human condition? Well, I guess
my my question then is,
does does religion in all its forms really serve humanity? Well,
then, if, if there is this core of, of,
of not being able to change in certain areas, and they're going
to differ, of course by group?
Shouldn't wouldn't we be better off if if we could adopt our
finding a system that would allow more flexibility of change, if we
can simply demonstrate that that change is beneficial
to humanity in general?
Roll and not have to worry about whether it runs afoul of
doctrinal statements found in the various religions?
That's a provocative question, Carlton, I appreciate it. I think
that I probably would suggest that
you know, the, I probably don't, I probably don't subscribe to the
premise. And by that I don't mean to be disrespectful, I just mean
that I think that there are plenty of expressions of, of religion
that are quite adaptive, I believe the person who spoke last month
from the Unitarian Universalist Church would would would
articulate a structure within the Unitarian Universalism that that
is much more adaptive than certain religious structures. So I don't
disagree that there aren't examples of religious institutions
that are adverse to change. But quite frankly, I don't, I don't
think that's any different than up at the lab and some of the
science, there are those within the scientific community, that
that are more rigid in their scientific approach. And there are
some in the scientific community that are much more progressive and
open in their approach to science and their pursuit of the mysteries
of the universe. And we have a Bible study on Tuesday mornings,
where many of those different approaches interact with one
another. And it's delightful. So I just think that, that I really
agree with the premise that, that human beings, I don't think it's
unique to religion, I think we see this in government's government
can be profoundly helpful and necessary in advancing the causes
of humanity and justice and equality. And government can be
profoundly cumbersome in responding to the needs of
humanity and equality and justice. And so in some ways, of course, we
need, we need humanity to be more
to be more willing to be open to what we might say, is capital
true. And I would just agree with you that religion oftentimes,
sadly, is not that institution.
I'm a part of a traditional Protestant mainline denominational
church, our reputation is not one of great agility, and embracing
change.
That doesn't mean that that we aren't trying and seeking to be
open to that. So I guess what I would say is, I would say amen, I
pray for, for people to be more receptive to what is truly in
humility, beneficial, and I think that that's probably where I would
start is that whether it's government or science or religion,
or, or education,
humility seems to me to be the primary ingredient to people being
able to really look beyond themselves and not be so bound to
their own ego, an idea of how things need to be humility sort of
opens us to a different possibility. And that's where
whatever that practices, I think, would benefit from that. And I
don't know if that that might just be a long, rambling response to a
really provocative question that you're asking, but
I appreciate your interest even. Yeah, I it is, it's a question
that, you know, could easily, you know, side rails and great thing
we got going here, and I don't want to do that. No, but I did
want to I did want to just at least ask it once and just see
what the response was.
Who else has a question?
at hand, I'll go ahead and ask a question. If that's all right,
then.
Steve, you mentioned about how some,
like a group within the Presbyterian Church.
Various times is broken away. It sounds like maybe formed another
denomination. I was just curious. I might not quite have this right.
But it seems like there's a Presbyterian Church, USA and a
Presbyterian Church in America. Is that right? Yeah, I think there's
actually so Presbyterian is a word that doesn't have any
denominational uniqueness. It's actually a way of governing. So
there's actually I think, 14 different Presbyterian
denominations.
Which actually, which has been humorous, because many of our
people will go to a church that has the word Presbyterian on it,
but find out that it's very different than our church with
respect to how it views, leadership or other other things.
So yeah, we are a part of the Presbyterian Church USA. There's
the Presbyterian Church of America. There's the Orthodox
Presbyterian Church, there's Cumberland Presbyterian Church.
There's
The Evangelical covenant order, there's the covenant Presbyterian
Church. There's a number of denominations that have the word
Presbyterian in it. Presbyterian is a word that denotes a
proportional representation. Right? It's a presbyter is one
who, individually is called to leadership to act and speak on
behalf of a larger group of people.
The easiest thing for me to say is our government was formed by
people that were fleeing religious persecution, many of whom came
from a Protestant upbringing in the Church of Scotland, where
proportional representation, Presbyterianism was a part of how
they organized and govern their church. And that same principle is
it's similar. It's not the same, but it's very similar to what we
see in our, in our form of government where individuals are
elected to go and speak on behalf of groups of people. Within our
church, we have elders, that aren't supposed to make decisions
based on what they want, but they're supposed to be reflective
of, of a larger group of people within the church, and then
churches are a part of presbyteries, and we collectively
have conversations. And then Presbyterians are a part of our
national denomination. And so our national denomination makes
decisions that then impact local churches. That's that connectional
system that we strive to be a part of.
So change. So and again, adaptation goes through that
process, that's that communal part of the process, that I could stand
up in our pulpit this Sunday and say, whatever I wanted, and how
the church needs to change within our structure, our session, which
is our board,
either would or wouldn't agree with that. And if I say something
that we need to do that's not in alignment with what our
Presbyterian with what our denomination says, there's this
larger connectional system that we're that we're in covenant
relationship with, that we we choose to align ourselves with.
And you can imagine, again, there's regional differences in
California than in Jackson, Mississippi. And yet, Presbyterian
churches in Livermore in Jackson, Mississippi, choose to abide by
the same understandings of who God is and how God's at work.
Thank you. That was very interesting.
Looks like we would have time for one more question. If anyone else
would like to ask Pastor Steve a question. Yes.
Think I just had a
it's going to be interesting.
Because there's going to be looks like there's much more sort of
ethical questions coming up as science develops, right. And then
we can continue to probably impact our genetics and
have medical changes, etc. It's interesting to me to see how
different religions address this particular topic and all these
other different ones and how within religions also, it seems
like there's a multiplicity of opinions. Right. Right.
Yeah. And I don't know if that's a great statement. I don't know if
that's a question that? Well, I know, I think I'm just observing,
and I'm just trying to get your take on, well, how to resolve it
within your Well, I think that's the tension. And again, within our
tradition, it's the tension that we choose to live with him, right?
We sort of, you know, I'm speaking a lot about the way in which the
Spirit speaks in community. And so there's a communal aspect to what
we think and what we conclude about any number of things.
You know, Christian ethics or medical ethics.
There's that communal aspect, but but but sort of, beneath at all is
this acknowledgement that God alone is the Lord of the
conscience, and, and that while I may or may not Alan's a part of
our church, so I've known Alan for 14 years and know him well. So I
say this to a friend, I may or may not agree with Alan on everything.
That's not really the point. God alone is the one who will will
judge me will judge Alan will judge all of us and, and in
humility, my role is not to judge you on behalf of God.
It's to it's to in its humility, to be open to what God's desire
is, as I understand it for me in my life and the decisions that we
make. And so it's always that tension of individuals that may
have experiences or perspectives that aren't always shared,
that choose to be a part of a community where it's not just
about their individual
preferences and perspectives. And, and again, that's why I think. And
I think Carlton may have jumped off which dog gone into here I'm
trying to bring him back into the conversation. But it's part of the
challenge of religion is that we've to oftentimes siloed
ourselves into a like mindedness that that isn't about
inviting perspective outside of our own preferences or biases, or
whatever that is. And so we create these sort of echo chambers that
then make these universal declarations about medical ethics,
or euthanasia, or any number of things. And they're well intended.
And oftentimes, they're faithfully well intended. So I don't mean to
demonize that at all. I don't judge that as though it's a bad
thing. I think it's people that are seeking to be loyal and adhere
to what they believe to be true. We just believe that that that
truth is best understood within a diversity of thought and opinion
that's found in community and is reflected in the diversity that
you just look on this screen, that you see a diversity of thought, a
diversity of life experience, a diversity of age, a diversity of
ethnicity, and I mean, all of that diversity we see as a valuable
thing that creates tension. Right. And for us, that's, that's
wonderfully modeled in the Trinity. And for us, that's
wonderfully reflected in that first group of disciples that they
themselves were oftentimes not in agreement, and yet, we're a
covenant community.
Thank you. I think that one of the most important statements you made
was about humility. And I know in our tradition, the Muslim
tradition, even scholars and their, their particular edicts
with an Allah knows best. Yes, thank you. Thank you for
this hosting this program. And thank you for allowing me to
attend. Well, that's a great, thank you for sharing with me how
wise people in your tradition and I should end most sermons with and
God knows best.
Thank you so much. Thank you so much for coming today. Maybe we'll
see you again.
Let us all kill Pastor Steve a round of applause. Yes.
Thank you so much. We did wonderfully with our time it's
559. And I think we had a chance for speakers to give excellent
presentations and for people to ask questions and have their
questions answered. So that worked out very well.