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Apostasy in Islam – A Discussion on Validity, Context, and Applicability

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Hatem al-Haj

Channel: Hatem al-Haj

Episode Notes

Episode Transcript

© No part of this transcript may be copied or referenced or transmitted in any way whatsoever. Transcripts are auto-generated and thus will be be inaccurate. We are working on a system to allow volunteers to edit transcripts in a controlled system.


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Bismillah Alhamdulillah wa salatu salam

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ala

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to proceed.

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Well, we promised to finish

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after the chapter of immortality. We did not finish the chapter one more time, we only we did finish the ruling of the mortared or the ruling of the apostate.

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based on a

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book up at Honda, which is a combative primer written by the Magna Carta not long died in the year 620. After hedorah

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we said we will draw a line, we will relate the tradition as it is with honesty and transparency and openness.

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contextualize it but then we'll draw a line

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and talk about contemporary discourse.

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Okay, so what is the contemporary discourse on the Hakuna Matata or the ruling of the apostate?

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First?

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is Islam the only religion that legislated this?

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is Islam peculiar about this? No, it is not. It absolutely isn't. And as I may have hinted a couple of times, if you contrast Islam and Islamic practices to other practices, you will find that the Islamic practices were Kinder

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even to the apostate than other practices like the inquisitions and so on.

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So Islam was not the only religion. And we will explain this a little bit more.

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However, we have to be honest about it and say that

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the punishment for apostasy

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criminalization of Apostasy is not canonized in any statutory laws anywhere in the world, except in Muslim countries. Likely

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that's the case. So there is a difference now, between Muslim countries and non Muslim countries in this respect.

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or there might be some Muslim non Muslim countries that have their you know, their punishment for apostasy. I don't know of any but there may be, but at least we can say if we are contrasting Western

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countries and Muslim countries, we can say that it is only the Muslim countries that have

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basically laws that criminalize apostasy.

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Certainly in western countries, they have laws that criminalize other things. You know, sometimes it could also be that that idea of freedom of conscience, freedom of speech, you know, if you deny the Holocaust, for instance, in some European countries,

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that is criminalized. So someone can say, well, it's my freedom of speech. It's my freedom conscience. Sometimes they're authors, they're writers, they're historians, and philosophers, they are not mobs, you know, basically, walking down the street together

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basically terrorize anyone.

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But anyway, so different value systems, and people prioritize different values, different people prioritize different values, and that they have different hierarchies within their value systems. But let's say that the punishment for apostasy is a major point of contention between Muslims and non Muslims nowadays, it is also a major, basically, agenda item.

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politically, socially, in many respects, it is, like a major point of contention, it's something that comes up quite often in discussions with non Muslims.

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And even politically, it's very consequential.

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So, so, we need to have like,

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a discussion about it.

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And then,

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before I talk about, you know, the, we have four different directions here 1234 of this discourse for different directions.

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This discourse one is the sort of the unfiltered the discourse, which is, you know, the punishment for apostasy is valid to be implemented, there is just we will implement it that way it has been discussed in the books, if you are hanafy, then you're going implemented your way if you're hungry and implemented, whether your way etc, are just as valid punishment that that should be implemented

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no contingency contingencies. The second

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is basically

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the complete denial of the existence of the punishment or the authenticity of the punishment, that is also another sort of direction and some

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have chosen that direction.

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So, validity should be implemented denial of the very existence of this management and Islam or

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its authenticity.

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The third is basically a sort of

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contextualized modified understanding of the punishment for apostasy

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to mean to mean

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punishment for violent

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apostasy

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and that's the direction of some as well. So, there are scholars who, you know, who have different positions on this issue. And most, you know, most of the discussion most of the scholars who have written on this issue are good meaning well meaning scholars.

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The fourth is

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it is valid, it is a punishment. However, it is not a fixed penalty, it is not a hub.

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Therefore, it is subject to suspension

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and that is based on basically an understanding of realities,

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risk benefit ratio and things of that nature. These are the four different positions, any other position? Well, basically, you know, because, as we said before, we don't like to dichotomize things and we don't like to be stiff about classifications there is usually a spectrum.

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But then in order for you to simplify things also make sense of them, you will want to have some classification. So, these are the main basically positions in terms of the contemporary discourse on the issue of Apostasy.

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But, I will go back and say

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synthesis, synthesis is important

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sentences is important.

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And Sanford says

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is a basically every generation would have

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to have a demon qualified to do so, every generation will have it will have to have its own trustworthy

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torchbearers,

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its own trustworthy scholars, that will defend that the inherent that will do the synthesis because synthesis here involves What?

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Being well versed in the text, which is not enough, because the crudites are most are also of the most well versed in the text. The Prophet sallallahu Sallam said the company failed, but he they said they speak the speech of the best people. You see when

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they speak well, but the the act the sort of

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wrongly are they their actions are evil.

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Their understanding their sentences eventually, on

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the other hand, who said getting better how can read that they have bought some word of truth that is in

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with which even it's intended or false what is intended for so it is intended that is sentences where the truth text

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But the sentences, the conclusion, the premise is correct. That is correct. But the conclusion is false is incorrect. So text is important, but it's not just quoting the text, because people can quote the text and have a proper understanding of it the proper understanding of the man on top of the text

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which are the end and or the effective causes of the text or the the backgrounds, the philosophy, the framework, the word view, basically,

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the matrix that will bring the jewels of the text together and make them a coherent picture image.

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That is the monopod

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that is the idle that's the effective causes, etc, etc. So, monitor

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and then a proper understanding of the realities that will basically

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realize these monitor these objectives of the text in

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different

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realities.

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Every reality looks different, different realities.

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So you can fit them

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into the different realities, you can be stiffly try to fit the, you know, the monitor and different realities by doing the same thing in these different realities, you will have to accommodate for the differences in the realities.

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Having said this, it is important and as we will do in Jihad as well, it is important that you don't feel ashamed or embarrass, Avi or the Avi or tradition, and you have this confidence. Our scriptures are certainly infallible, our tradition may not be infallible, but it's beautiful, largely

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beautiful, there may be mistakes by the Imams and scholars.

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But it is largely

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beautiful tradition.

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So this issue, the issue of Apostasy

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there is no way that you will find in our scriptures, evidence on the validity of Apostasy that is as clear as you will find in the Bible.

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You know, so this is not a ruling that was targeted by Islam, in fact that there is nowhere in the Quran that you can find the punishment of Apostasy and the couple of Hadees that we have, we will basically quote them. But this is like a biblical ruling. And you will find many, many verses in the Bible particularly in the term that Deuteronomy

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like 17,

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to 37, Chapter 17, verses two through seven, chapters 30 in verse eight to nine, Chapter 13, verses one to four.

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So if you so ever has gone and serve other gods and worshiped, then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing on to thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shall stone

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with stones till they die in this King James Version.

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There are many, many, you know, and as we said before, Birmingham, let's take pen Islam, it is a strike by the sword.

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Although it's at the end of the race, that's the penalty, but it's a little different also.

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So, the whoo so we can talk about the scriptures but people say you know, guys always talk about the scriptures. We don't care. It's the you know, it's, it's about realities. It's about the history that this actually happened. Of course, this has been happening. This is not basically something that is in the Jewish and Christian scriptures alone. It has not been basically part of the Jewish and Christian history. This has been part of the Jewish and Christian history. In fact, the most famous story about apostasy or the most famous story about the punishment for apostasy is the story of the 3000 divides who worship the calf, and were condemned to death. This is the story that the

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Bible tells us

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and then

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In the history of the, you know, in Christian history, particularly in the history of the papacy and the history in Europe, we have so many examples, you know, the inquisitions, just read about the inquisitions and contrast them to whatever it is that we said in the previous lecture. Contrast them with the fact that the apostate has to be brought to the judiciary to the judge, and the repentance needs to be sought and they will be fed and they will be asked to repent, establish the plea against them if they're ignorant, and then you ask them to repent, and it is just enough for them to say I'm Muslim, I take it back. You know, I don't deny Eunice Allah he said I'm or Jonah, Allah is Allah

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etc, etc. So

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they were the heretics were actually forced to confess.

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And in the history of the Inquisition, there were many atrocities committed against those people. And it would look to like the the intent was actually to condemn them not to seek their repentance. And

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some of the most famous or the most famous punishment for apostasy is Giordano Bruno. Giordano Bruno was burnt at the stake in 1600. In Rome, the last time in, in Europe, in secondary Europe, this punishment was actually

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executed was in 1826. This is just yesterday for talking about noon we're talking about you know, where the history here we're not talking about our lifetimes, but in 1826, this is modern times this is

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the last time cayetano rapel.

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His school teacher who was executed for allegedly preaching deism for allegedly preaching the ISM. So, the apostasy scripturally you will find more about the punishment of Apostasy in the Bible than you can find anywhere and our scriptures plan is completely you know,

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silent about this

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particular issue if not being used by some contemporary scholars to as like

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supplying the sort of the counter proofs or the proofs for the counter argument.

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So, this is one thing that I wanted to start by which is important and we will do this inshallah, in the next chapter of jihad.

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Now, in our tradition in our scriptures, let's discuss the scriptures discuss the tradition now and then before we talk about the contemporary discourse, so let us discuss the scriptures. What did you call what would you call in favor of and against the punishment for apostasy in favor of

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you don't quote anything in favor of Okay. Well, let me go.

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Okay. I would quote manbat della Dena

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the strongest of all

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in favor of men but that Edina move up to whoever changes his religion that is what a mountain for them and when we went over the punishment for apostasy, and that's the only Hadees he mentioned, whoever changed his religion, kill him. This is reported by Bacardi from have not Bess. So, this is in favor.

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That's the second

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line lie ahead with American Muslim and labiodental us

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so that the blood of a Muslim is inviolable, except in three conditions and one of them is pathetically Dini and malaria put in their mouth.

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So directly Dini, who abandons his the tightrope to leave, abandons his the enviroklenz ama and separates from the community separates from the community. Okay, more

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hobbies Amaro man,

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which we said

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is

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questionable and

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can't

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You know, the truth is it's not authentic, you know, you know?

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scholars of holies have considered that to be either weak or very weak.

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Have you thought

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of the blind man who had

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the mother of his child on what are the E or omega d the mother of his children who came there and we said that this Hades

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called xo chain wise may be stronger than the hadith of Omar Omar is reported by up with a road but

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you know, the map has some consistencies, particularly the fact that the Prophet sallallahu Sallam would accepted the claim of the killer without witnesses without any further proofs on the veracity of their claim.

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Van What else would you call it in favor of

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certainly we should do this here. Okay, what else would you quote?

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The man I can't remember his name but he he repented he went to MCC and he's the only one who was killed in

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I can't remember his name

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that was that was a

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cancer cancer okay

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no one person

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Yeah. So he was killed in Makkah.

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He was killed because he received the profit

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Yeah, but they aren't talking about

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the practices themselves.

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No, he was not killed by the way he was actually he

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became actually commander in the army.

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But anyway, the very fact that that the prophets are set up to do

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these are different issues the caterpillar here and have loved Navy Sarhan, these are not merely for apostasy

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these are different reports that you will always find some other reason in addition to apostasy

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but these we want only the proofs on apostasy so

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then what would you code against that?

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Like

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Okay, so like after the

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there is no compulsion in religion

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on this side, man, how long have Roman doesn't? It's not going to be included. But Allah Muhammad what is the punishment?

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vast majority agree that is, okay, so so you want to say that you are reporting the edge now here you are citing that now. We're talking about the scriptures. But you're citing the email that was reported by now has meant of neurosis than others. So some emails were reported by verifying scholars that the punishment of Apostasy is thus and we know that the agreement of the four mazahub is that the punishment of Apostasy is that for the man and the Hanafi cert for the woman it is imprisonment, okay.

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But scripturally What else would you quote here

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for

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alpha for the men

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woman variac

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in South Africa

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surah baqarah

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and say the truth is from your Lord so let him he wants to believe believe and let him wants to disbelief disbelief

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and so we're not gonna hide here for that kid in the mountain was here last time.

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You saw remind you're only a reminder you're not

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controller

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Dominator over them

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so what else would you quote here?

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There is some others my concern about the necessity as you do not, you do not need

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to do it and fitness your key Sophie, for me

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from Santa Monica for ad hoc moto moto. Hi. Welcome to another camaleon Sultana movie

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You will find others that want to be to earn safety from you or any monokuma monokuma home

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to basically be secure around you and around there people could pick me up Sofia. Every time they returned back to this belief they fall into it. So every time they returned back from Africa as it was interpreted, they go back to this belief for me to come to so they used to be between the Prague Medina and Mecca, come to the Prophet they are believers they go to Mecca, they are disbelievers. So

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Allah said for me at a zero Kemal Santa Monica for ADL

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has. So if they don't, basically

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Yata zero calm meaning sort of separate from you.

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While you're in a coma Salaam and give you peace, were cooked for a day at home and withhold their aggression, withhold their violence from them, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them. So what if they were human mohalla with a divergent implication, what if they

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as a lukewarm What if they

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kept away from us kept away from us and did not fight against us and withheld their violence or aggression? Then you don't give them? So that would be the burn center. And

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so what else would you quote in terms of

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we'll come to the questions and answers we want to but if you want to quote quote, because the fact that this punishment was not carried out during the time, okay, so you're quoting about it was not carried out that basically many times the prophets Allah did not meet this punishment or did not execute this punishment. So mentioned examples, the man who came to the Prophet sallallahu Sallam and said to his face, tequila, Mohamed whaddon.

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In heavy metal, not only that Bihar Tula so fear Allah, O Muhammad, and be just this division, is not a division with which our loss of pleasure was sought. Well, that is basically denial of the messenger, denial of the prophethood. Because messenger is infallible, as you know, and that is apostasy and the prophets have left him

00:27:37--> 00:27:49

What about the man who the bedwin man who came to the Prophet sallallahu wasallam and accepted Islam and then he said, Dr. Muhammad kidney, or jasola kidney

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which means what?

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Carla is basically, pardon me or exempt to me or

00:28:02--> 00:28:03

planning.

00:28:04--> 00:28:09

Yeah, there's like, two beautiful bio SRA out contracts like if you if you are

00:28:10--> 00:28:12

so exhausted,

00:28:14--> 00:28:24

absorb, absorb, absorb, okay absolve me good. That's good, absolve me from this contract from this by offering this pledge.

00:28:26--> 00:28:41

The Prophet sallallahu Sallam refused, came back refuse third time refuse, and then he left and then the Prophet sallallahu Sallam said what el Medina to kill clear. Medina is like the furnace of the blacksmith Kalki

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10 fee for that's

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why I'm so

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so Medina is like the furnace of the blacksmith. It removes its impurities and lets its good shine or lets its good shine Yes.

00:29:06--> 00:29:26

And then we have the story of academia where there is we're talking to the profit zone and about the people who would leave the they wanted the Prophet sallallahu Sallam to agree that whoever goes to the Prophet sallallahu Sallam from Mecca would be returned to

00:29:27--> 00:29:45

the Mexicans and whoever goes to Makkah from the side of the prophets of Salaam will not need to return to the Prophet, double standard, you know, but but anyway the Prophet accepted because he wanted peace and so he accepted this.

00:29:46--> 00:29:52

So what the prophets Allah I'm sad menza Min, lie him Takata bodalla

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Whoever goes from whoever leaves us for them, goes to them and leaves us, Allah have distanced him, or May Allah keep him away.

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is so so this man,

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the Prophet did not seek Him to punish him.

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The man who said to the Prophet Muhammad, anyone who apostatized you know, the prophets of Salaam did not necessarily punish them.

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And as I said that this hobbies of Amaro man is not authentic hobbies or marijuana is problematic mapping wise.

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So, this is basically scripturally for and against.

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However, scripturally if you want to be honest, this Hadeeth is very strong exit plus and authentic.

00:31:01--> 00:31:10

Cold the rest you could find ways to interpret them in a way that will be reconciled with this hobbies

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in a way that would be reconciled with this hubby's

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lie I have loaded memory in Muslim it's a different story. Let us now go over the tradition and the contemporary discourse tradition wise, what positions that we have among the foreigners I have thus far the man according to the formula have been according to a consensus report, the baby nurse now will be another's. For the man.

00:31:40--> 00:31:51

For the woman imprisonment, according to the Hanafi is that's according to the rest. Do we have any other positions in the tradition? We have reports that may be used

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basically by the deniers from Hamas

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and ebrahimian NACA

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for MCI.

00:32:06--> 00:32:08

And so pianos

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that their punishment is indefinite as the tab

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the seek the repentance in definitely the seek the repentance and definitely these are coated. We have reports from both farmer and Nakai to say the opposite, but we have conflicting reports from them conflicting reports from two But otherwise, it has been established in the tradition in the form of consensus reported by some of the most verifying scholars that this is the penalty is the death penalty is the penalty.

00:32:51--> 00:32:59

So, where is the contemporary discourse coming from and we said the four main actions in the contemporary discourse are valid and applicable

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valid

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not fixed

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and applicable

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and applicable nowadays

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or

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not not always inapplicable, but let us say valid ethics that's what this was this position. It's not it's not saying necessarily inapplicable.

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But then, so, valid, but not fixed, not fixed.

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And then other invalid. There is nothing called the punishment for apostasy

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and

00:33:50--> 00:33:54

only for violent

00:33:55--> 00:33:56

apostasy.

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So

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invalid will say what will say what would they say about this? We'll say this Hobbes is inconsistent and it's mad, because it means anyone who leaves his name like if Joe became Christian, you can well if a Christian became Muslim, you also kept him

00:34:19--> 00:34:21

because he changed his name

00:34:23--> 00:34:28

so it's our company that understanding who you know it is a funny understanding.

00:34:29--> 00:34:44

But they're saying that this is this is inconsistent because it's just basically about anyone changing their religion What about they change their religion to a better religion? What about a pagan became Jew What about you know?

00:34:46--> 00:34:59

So, what if they change their religion to burgers, and so that's the position the this one, the deniers would say this applies to sedition it does not apply to any

00:35:00--> 00:35:07

Actually demand me although he does not deny that it applies to apostasy. But he uses also to say it's applies to savich sedition,

00:35:09--> 00:35:16

emphatically jamaah. He who basically leaves abandons or separates from the community through rebellion submission.

00:35:18--> 00:35:26

They will say these are not authentic, they will say we have this we have this we have this we have this. So, so these are the deniers.

00:35:31--> 00:35:46

The problem here is that the problem here is that the cost of denial, if you want to be a Muslim apologists, the cost of denial here is basically saying that

00:35:48--> 00:35:58

we do not want to say that, you know, the departure between tradition, the departure of the tradition from the scriptures was such that we well

00:36:00--> 00:36:18

basically shake people's faith in the tradition entirely because if you're talking about the agreement of the foreigners, I haven't reported it now. And Hadith in Bukhari and Hobbes, you know, that is reported by you know, except for

00:36:19--> 00:36:21

Bukhari and Hobbes and

00:36:22--> 00:36:26

and then the consensus that is reported in the agreement of the foreign scholars.

00:36:29--> 00:36:38

If you want to be a Muslim apologists, the cost of the cost of justify the cost of defending Islam here

00:36:40--> 00:36:56

is enormous. Because it basically sort of it's like an earthquake that when shake the foundation of the hermeneutical system, all of the harmony with the consistent

00:36:57--> 00:36:58

okay.

00:37:00--> 00:37:03

So that is the invalid position. What about this position,

00:37:04--> 00:37:07

which is a position of many scholars and many contemporary scholars

00:37:09--> 00:37:14

like Chicago, for instance. So it's violent apostasy

00:37:15--> 00:37:44

they will say, the only way that we can reconcile all of this reconcile all of this is to qualify that apostasy so that we can keep this like Rafa Dean, we can keep financial freedom and financial freedom. And we can call this punishment applicable to violent apostasy using this particular qualifier. And that's how these emphatically Jamal was separated from the MA. She

00:37:46--> 00:37:53

gives a context to this and he says, to this position, and he says that during the time of the prophets, I was out of them

00:37:54--> 00:38:25

apostatized meant, you know, joining price, there were two camps, you apostatize it means that you're joining the warring camp, and that camp that is in at war with believers, that is what it meant, it really is what it is, what it meant, you did not rise and just stay in Medina, basically, in appear to write books about, you know,

00:38:26--> 00:39:17

Islam and stuff will refute Islam by writing books, the opposite is and you left for McAfee, or you left to some of the Bedouin tribes that we're at war with the Prophet sallallahu sallam. So that is that is their their way of reconciliation, that is their way of synthesis, bringing it all together. Okay, without they feel that we will not be shaking the foundation of our hermeneutical system. our immune system is dependent on this interdistrict textual understanding, and contextual understanding and so on and so forth. But at the same time, that's, that's an opposition to the agreement of the farmer. And that's in defiance of some reported consensuses. And that does not have much precedent

00:39:17--> 00:39:25

except sort of questionable reports from Ahmad Ibrahim and Nakai, and Sophia, Saudi, you know, conflicting reports from them as well.

00:39:27--> 00:39:31

Now, here's Here is another take

00:39:32--> 00:39:41

that I am that I am client two more, because I am always obsessed with the idea of not checking the foundation.

00:39:43--> 00:39:49

Like keeping the structure keeping the pillars of the structure.

00:39:50--> 00:39:59

And I believe that this is the best sort of that would put that that's the best synthesis that would bring things together is to say

00:40:00--> 00:40:14

This is a valid thing, but it is as if it was it is it belongs to CSI does not belong to it does not belong to fixed penalties debunk CSI, because at sometimes it is the way to deter

00:40:16--> 00:40:34

sort of open rebellion against the religion itself, not necessarily against the state, but against the religion. And many times in our history, we had the Crusades and we have the, the other invasions or

00:40:36--> 00:40:40

you know, not all that matters because I have to visit the toddlers are mostly most

00:40:42--> 00:40:50

toddlers are Muslim. Now, I don't want to associate negativity to to the group of people but anyway, the invasions

00:40:51--> 00:40:55

drinkies cons, dynasties invasions

00:40:56--> 00:40:58

against Muslims and so on, and

00:41:00--> 00:41:01

basically defection

00:41:03--> 00:41:08

and betrayal of the religion under the under pressure, you know, colonialist for instance,

00:41:10--> 00:41:16

it would have there not been mechanisms, mechanisms to protect the religion

00:41:19--> 00:41:23

the amount of pressure that was basically exerted by friends

00:41:24--> 00:41:25

to

00:41:28--> 00:41:34

on the Algerians to bring them into the fold,

00:41:35--> 00:41:37

of sort of French culture, French,

00:41:39--> 00:41:50

religion, etc, values, and so on was was huge, and many people would have wanted to defect because, and that's how I didn't even look at him.

00:41:51--> 00:41:52

More than that,

00:41:54--> 00:41:59

people follow the religion of their sovereigns or the, you know, their monarchs,

00:42:00--> 00:42:07

the defeated are always basically obsessed or fond of,

00:42:08--> 00:42:19

are inclined to imitating Givi Victor's so they're the needs to have some mechanisms by which

00:42:20--> 00:43:12

its sacredness is protected, there is no open defiance in Muslim countries and Muslim societies against their religion, which will facilitate for others to be defiant as well. And based on you know, our worldview as Muslims, godson a messenger, we believe that this is certain This is from God, this is where the well being and welfare of humanity and protecting the sacredness of the message and protecting the position of the religion in the community and the society is in the best interest of the society It is like, you know, this is basically the foundation of the system, the religion is the foundation of the system like here, there there is a system, there is also a value

00:43:12--> 00:44:04

system that has foundations, no society will accept compromising the found its own foundations and the societies will be as aggressive as they could be against people that compromise that foundation and for us, this is the foundation. So, now, so to say that this is valid, it is not a fixed penalty, why are they saying is is rather than fixed, not fixed, fixed penalty based on this? Because they're saying, okay, we, we can't deny this, this is we'll accept it. But at the same time, the Prophet sallallahu Sallam let people go, many people apostatize than his face in his presence in the Medina let them go. So it's not a fixed penalty, otherwise would have been meted every time it

00:44:04--> 00:44:40

was established. So it's not a fixed penalty. So, that is a way to reconcile all of this without denying the consensus without the nine the format without the nine anything accepting all of this, but saying that it is not a fixed penalty. Now, if it is not a fixed penalty, would that give you room would that give you room to suspend that if it is in the best interest of the Muslims are suspended? If you open the gates between Islam if societies weren't sort of communities,

00:44:42--> 00:44:58

and the international community decided to open the gates between religions allow people to move between religions with Islam win or not? Of course it would win. That is an that is a like an outcome that is favorable for us.

00:45:00--> 00:45:20

That we would be keen we would be keen on realizing gap condition and keeping it open the gates let people move in and out. And then we'll certainly when has that been hasn't said the word of the Warren overhang was a former Santa

00:45:21--> 00:45:24

Clara de m&r burdened with the water safety plan.

00:45:26--> 00:45:31

So, there are two different types of domination, the domination of proof

00:45:33--> 00:45:54

the domination of proofs and logic or reason, or the end the domination by the sword in the sphere, the domination by logic and reason, domination by sword and spear domination by logic and reason is always ours, domination by the sword and spear sometimes it's sometimes for us and sometimes you know against us.

00:45:56--> 00:46:27

So, if that is the case, and that is what we believe in, then this outcome is favorable and we will be keen on keeping it keep the gates open. And then we suspended this if Rama Rama Mohan who suspended the punishment of seft, because of a particular interest and it is a fixed penalty fixed penalty had, then at our theory penalty would be more amenable to suspension, if it is in the best interest

00:46:28--> 00:46:38

of the Muslims. And that is what I believe that this punishment should be suspended. At the same time, I also believe that

00:46:40--> 00:46:47

Muslim communities will have to figure out ways of using soft power, not hard power

00:46:48--> 00:47:00

to prevent. And soft power can sometimes be stronger and more effective than hard power, but they have to use soft power to prevent the defection. And

00:47:01--> 00:47:40

because you have basically military and cultural incursions into Muslim countries all the time. There's this sort of mainlands of Islam, they happen to be in the middle of the world. They're always interested in that reason. There is all there, they have been always encouraged in military and economic, cultural, etc. And that reason and they have to figure out ways of protecting their Deen and the sacredness of their Deen and the position and the status and the place of their Deen in the public space.

00:47:41--> 00:47:44

So they need some

00:47:45--> 00:47:46

creativity.

00:47:48--> 00:48:14

But that's my position, I guess on the issue of Apostasy. I hope that I covered everything I wanted to say. Every time you know, whenever we discuss things like that you on my way home on Mesa, Oh, I forgot to say this. But anyway, hopefully this covers everything and then there will be room in the q&a session to address issues that have not been addressed.