Hamza Yusuf – Trial And Tribulation In The Quran with Nasrin Rouzati
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The speakers emphasize the importance of understanding suffering and hardship, acknowledging one's actions and actions in order to achieve success in life. They stress the need for acceptance of profits and finding one's own light in life, while also acknowledging the importance of learning to be content with suffering and finding one's own way of thinking. They also touch on the significance of death and trusting one's success, with a recent event receiving a prize for their work on Islam. The speakers express hope for future opportunities and encourage listeners to reach out to them.
AI: Summary ©
Worthwhile to be hearing from
our sister, doctor Nesareen Rozzati.
So,
and then doctor
is gonna be with us also. She she's
read the book a few times as as
I have.
First of all, just wanted to
say
that,
this and I told doctor Inesarene
this. This book was really a book that
that I had in my mind construed up.
And so to find somebody to have written
it,
is is really
amazing.
So
and my brother once told me that I
should write a book called Books I Should
Have Written where each chapter was like a
a a book idea because I'm always having
book ideas.
But in any case,
trial and tribulation, the Quran, and mystical theodicy,
this,
is a work,
I think
I think I haven't seen anything like it,
and one of the reasons for writing a
book, there's the our scholars give seven reasons
for writing books, but one of them is
because it hasn't been written.
And so
this book, as far as I can tell,
hasn't been written,
and, I think we owe a great, debt
of gratitude
to doctor Nasreena. And I think this book
over time, will will really,
I think, have a an important place
in the,
in the Muslim
library
because,
in some ways,
it's a really profound
reflection
on something that is so central to the
Quranic narrative, and yet so many people seem
to completely miss it,
surprisingly.
And and in missing it, I think
a great deal of life is a lot
of suffering
and hardship.
So
I wanna welcome doctor Nasreen and just maybe
open it up with
a with a a question to you.
What what,
what compelled you to write this book
on trial and tribulation in the Quran?
Sheikh Hamza Yusuf and, everyone else who has
joined us, for this discussion.
Sister Aisha, doctor Aisha, to you as well.
And the rest of your team, in Zaytunah
College.
Well, firstly, before I answer your question,
Sheikh Hamza Yusuf,
allow me to thank you. First of all,
thank Allah, Alhamdulillah,
for the opportunity.
And secondly, thank you and express my deepest
appreciation
really for providing this opportunity,
to have this conversation.
And, of course, for putting the book on
on the book club and, you know, asking
your audience, your members,
to read it and hopefully to reflect upon
it.
So I really,
do appreciate that. And I'm delighted that I'm
here tonight, and we are going to
join in this conversation with you.
I hope that we will have a fruitful
conversation
and that everyone can, can benefit.
So as far as,
you know, writing about, this topic, really the
driving force,
you know, behind this research,
was rooted in this existential
question,
you know, that I always had
for for the longest time, you know. And,
you know, as human beings, we all go
through different experiences.
Some experiences
that brings us, you know, delight and happiness.
And
even though those happiness is maybe, you know,
short lived,
as the Buddha says. And,
a lot of other experiences,
you know, brings us sadness,
despair sometimes,
and perhaps suffering, you know, anxiety
of this kind of,
feeling. And
I feel like for the most part,
when we go through life,
in well-being
and
when everything is,
you know, nice and we are happy, we
take everything for granted,
for the most part. And we think that
this is the way that it's supposed to
be. Right?
And then when we are afflicted,
with with with let's say,
you know, a disease or,
you know, a loved one going through a
hard time, losing a loved one,
or seeing calamities
coming over communities.
You know, all of a sudden, we go
to this mood of,
going through the process
of trying to eliminate,
the situation as quickly as possible,
trying to,
you know, get rid of it. Okay. How
do I solve this
process.
And we don't really get to understand the
why
behind the whole thing.
So most of us may go through the
experience of hardship,
without getting the lesson.
Right? Without really,
benefiting
from the spiritual lesson that is really embedded
in that experience.
And so
I have had my share of of suffering
from my childhood
to my adulthood,
various,
you know, hardships and afflictions
here and there, some harder than others. And
I always had this question,
if, the answer can be find, in the
Quran.
And since Quran has always been my,
you know, my,
comfort zone, my I I I received tranquility
from it. I would always go to it
and read the the Quran,
to get, you know, to get, the
as as prophet Abraham
says. And so it's
but when I was researching to to write,
about the dissertation and finding a topic,
I was struggling
because I wanted
to do the research on a scholarly topic
that is really
intellectually,
you know,
inviting as well as,
a topic that would benefit
general topic as well.
And so, I was thinking about various topics,
and, alhamdulillah, I was in Mecca,
sitting in front of the Kaaba, just pondering,
about life.
And,
this topic came to me. Why not
going after,
your existential question and investigating the Quran
and finding the answer there.
And,
it was amazing.
The journey has been amazing.
It's still giving me the pleasure every time,
I receive an email from that article or
from someone that has read the book, and
they have questions about it. And so I
I don't,
I don't claim that we can always have
the answer because we are limited.
We have to accept,
our humility. We have to accept this,
epistemic humility,
that we
do not understand everything that goes around, and
they may have only glimpse of it. But
as students of the Quran, I feel like
the more we are in dialogue
with the Quran,
the better,
understanding and the better,
you know,
understanding of various conditions of life. And so
I think,
writing about this topic and doing this research
really gave me that,
gave me the answer that I was looking
for,
for the longest time. And I'm
thankful to Allah every day that, he provided
this opportunity because everything we do is is
comes from Allah.
Last time, I I I I'm very grateful.
Yeah. Well, one of the things I think
that's really remarkable,
about the book is the unveiling of the
cohesion of the Quranic narrative
on this subject. Because I think one of
the most difficult things for a lot of
particularly western people that are so accustomed to
linear narrative,
and and the bible is a linear revelation.
It begins with Genesis.
It goes through a history of a tribe,
and then for the Christians, it, it leads
to this culmination.
But it's it's very linear.
The gospels are linear,
whereas when when you come to the Quran,
the initial experience of the Quran is very
dizzying.
There's a kind of vertiginous
experience that the Quran evokes
in a person.
It's changing
person goes first person, second person, third person
in the same few lines.
And, and I think for for Western people,
that in particular is very difficult
for for them.
But one of the really interesting things because
you you probably use some deconstruction
a little bit at the end of the
book, but I think one of the the
and I'm not a big fan of the
methodology,
but but one of the interesting things about
the methodology
is that it often uncovers the deep
contradictions within text that that outwardly appear very
coherent.
And I think the exact opposite happens with
the Quran. It has a kind of outward,
incoherence,
that that that that on the initial experience
of it, one doesn't see the cohesion. But
the deeper you go,
the more,
the more cohesive it gets. And so I
think your methodology maybe you could talk about
the 4
aspects
of the,
of of the that you found in the
Bala narrative in the Quran.
Sure. So,
you know, as you know,
the
issue of suffering or the problem of evil
as as, you know, problem of evil as
as everyone knows is a umbrella term. Right?
That it is used,
in the Western, scholarship,
and it's usually referred to as the cause
of human suffering.
Right?
And, it is probably, I think, the most
debated
question in the philosophy of religion.
So, you know, when when when you come
at this work from the Islamic perspective,
I I felt like,
I don't wanna go to to philosophical discussion
or theological discussions or even mystical discussions, which
is my,
preference.
And hence, the title of the book, A
Mystical The Odyssey.
But before even going there, I wanted the
Quran to lead the research.
You know? I didn't want to,
assume anything. I really wanted to just enter
the Quran
with an open heart,
And,
the most of the typology on chapter 1
actually,
believe it or not, happened and was written
in the month of Ramadan.
As as the month of the Quran. And
so,
it was quite fascinating
when I started to go
through the various narratives and
and verses of the Quran and trying to
collect them and put them side by side
and
looking at the methodology of isuzutsu,
you know, to try to understand,
the verse by itself
the content of the verse, then the occasion
of the revelation,
its relation to the previous verses,
as well as its relation and its its,
interconnectness
with the entire chapter, which was being presented
in, as well as the entire Quran,
when it is side by side looked at
with the other verses that Balah and Italo,
other variances
are are put together.
And I had no idea what I was
gonna get. I I did not know,
if I was going to be able to
categorize these narratives.
Are they going to be distinct,
you know, categories? I had no idea.
And so,
with the help of, Allah
very, very naturally,
and I have the appendix at the end
of the book with of it shows all
of the narratives, all the verses.
I think it took me 6 months,
to really,
you know, go deep with these narratives and
put them in categories.
And those 4 categories
actually came up of of after that,
initial research of intratextual,
contextualization,
and according to ISATSU.
And so,
you know, the 4 categories, of course, they
have some overlaps between them. You know? But,
for the most part, they are really distinct.
And,
one of the most interesting,
and fascinating findings,
of the war on regarding this was that,
the very first category,
that very naturally
shows the cluster of,
of narratives in the Quran
that points to the ins
in a creational
structure of the universe.
Not even getting any anything less than that,
like the creation of the heavens and the
earth,
because
Allah wanted wanted to provide this stage,
for human beings to go through the challenges.
And,
before somebody asked the question, let me just
say that the the goal of of the
Quran, of this narrative is, in my view,
is that
the the growth of us, the, you know,
stepping on the spiritual ladder,
and and finding Allah
deeper and deeper and going through these experiences
is the goal. And so, therefore, when we
say trial and test,
Allah doesn't need to test us, but we
do need this. They usually need to be
going through these experiences
to willingly,
right, submit
to become a Muslim.
And so,
and to really become who we really really
are in our essence.
And so the first category that talks about,
you know, the creation of the structure of
the universe. Because of this, Allah is the
one who created the heavens and the earth
in order to test you. Or in
other Surah, we have
the,
the purpose of the creation,
and the the purpose of,
in Surah Al Mulk.
In other words so
very, very fascinating to me was the fact
I remember the day that,
you know, I went to England and and
I was conversing with professor Colin Turner, who
was my,
mentor and adviser for this topic, and he
was very much interested in this topic as
well.
When I told him about this, he was
extremely
excited and he said, I cannot believe
that they all read the Quran and we
didn't we didn't see these verses.
Yeah.
So the category is really naturally formed. So
the first category
shows that this is really part of the,
you know, creational structure. It's the pillar.
So Balah and Ipilar really is a main
pillar
in the whole,
creational
structure of the universe. Right? And that was
the that was the most fascinating finding.
And, of course, then I get into
means by which,
you know, test and trial happens,
values, objects that that that it happens.
We've talked about, the profits. You know, when
we
look at this narrative, we see that,
contrary to to popular belief that Allah,
is is negative, has a negative connotation.
I don't know about the culture here, but
I'm from Iran.
And,
I mean, I've been here most of my
life. I came here when I was 17.
But our culture
talks about
as something
totally undesirable,
totally
an unwanted.
Right?
And so,
it it hasn't it has this really
negative connotation to it. And,
when I researched this from the Quran, I
said, oh my Allah. Everything is so positive
about this. You know, when when Allah says
that, you know,
you know, we created the human beings in
in
in in a range or is suffering or
in in a trial.
This cannot be negative.
This must have,
you know,
a positive connotation. And I think the reason
that is so positive and is,
over memory
comes through from the moronic narrative is because
it's purposeful.
Yeah.
There is a purpose behind it. Right? And
and the purpose of the creation and our
creation as the Quran constantly reminds us,
did you think I did create you in
vain?
Or, you know, did you think that this
was no purpose and you're not going to
come back to us? Like, these various narratives
in the Quran
that completes the story of Bala and Italo
narratives as so beautiful and so moving and
so positive
that it's just beyond explanation. I really cannot
express the excitement
and that I felt as I went through.
And and I still get that excitement when
I remember,
the discussion. And, of course, we talk about
one of the categories is profits.
Right? I speak about 25 different prophets in
the world that are mentioned in the Quran.
And so if this was to be negative,
then why the best people?
Prophets are the best blessed,
you know, human beings that we have on
this earth. They have been through
a lot of suffering, a lot of difficult
times
and hardship.
So this cannot be negative.
Right? This has a purpose even for profits.
So if profits are not exempted,
then we should all be embracing
and and and try to learn from those
experiences. So those categories, again, to not to
get too much detail because I get too
excited about this. Yeah. No. No. And it's
something to get excited about because it's just
wonderful.
Yes. So one of the one of the
main points is really to show that,
you know, the profits are not exempted.
And so if the profits are not exempted
and there are example
in life and and role models,
you know, as Gospatul Hasanah, as the Quran
calls, prophet Muhammad
and and other,
prophets, peace be upon all of them,
then,
this must be this must be good. This
must be
purposeful. There's a purpose. There's there's goodness to
it. And so taking it from that approach,
and and looking at it from that lens,
I think shows
us very quickly on the research.
Just from the boronic perspective, not even getting
to the other chapters of the book, that
what the Western scholarship talks about as a
problem of evil
and a duty Christian traditions.
This is not so at all. You know,
I was presenting,
in Germany,
in a conference
right before the pandemic
about this.
And
the the Jewish scholar, a very well known
I'm not gonna name name him here, but
very well known philosopher
of of Jewish studies who was there in
this conference with me, who had presented,
evil from the Jewish perspective.
When he heard me saying that this is
not a problem,
he he he could not
refrain from raising up from the chair and
say,
are you serious? Like, this is not a
problem? I said, no.
This is not a problem in the Quran.
It's not a theoretical problem to be solved.
It's just how we reflect upon this situation
that that creates the problem. The problem is
not there. The problem is how we reflect
upon it. Right? That creates the
Yeah. And and I think, you know, because
of the holocaust,
this is obviously a big but one of
the really interesting things that the, one of
the the
the victims of the holocaust
was,
Edith Stein.
Yes. And and and Edith Stein had premonitions
of what was going to happen,
when she was,
beatified by the Catholic church.
The some of the eyewitnesses
in the in the she was in a
monastery. She'd actually been taken out of Germany
and and and taken to Belgium. She was
a convert to Catholicism,
but she she would go out into the
cold to prepare
for what was coming
because she had these premonitions
of what was gonna happen.
And she only,
she was blessed to only be there for
a week, and she was killed pretty quickly.
But the the witnesses to the week that
she was there, she spent the time comforting
the children.
And so she was somebody who was in
a complete state of submission,
and I think that's that's where the difference
comes if,
you know, the idea
of israel,
you know, of struggling with God,
which is very different, I think, from
from our understanding
of submission to God.
And and that's why I what you're pointing
out, I think, is fascinating because
I don't think the problem of evil has
ever really been a problem for for the
Islamic civilization.
It just it it you know, there there
there obviously been scholars that have talked about
it, but not in the way and I
think for the very reasons that you pointed
out,
in your book. But,
go ahead. Right. Right. I mean, invest in
a scholarship, really, the problem of evil,
goes back to
providing,
or or struggling,
to show that there's an inconsistency
between the existence of all powerful
good God and the fact that evil exists.
Right? That's in in a nutshell in just
one sentence. That's what the the
whole topic of the odyssey,
in in Western scholarship,
talks about. So the odyssey basically,
obviously meaning that how to justify
justification
of the existence of God and a good
all powerful God with the fact,
that that evil exists. Right? And so
in Islamic tradition,
this inconsistency
was never was never the the the the
question
because divine attributes,
according to the Muslim scholars,
you know, Asharid, Muhtar, Hazalit,
Sunni, she all agreed that those divine attributes
were uncompromisable.
Right? You wouldn't even go near them. Right?
So you you kinda understand everything.
But in in the column,
scholastic,
you know, discussions,
the discussion was
bit really between,
you know, moral evil, which was caused by
the
freedom of will, you know, if you would,
of of human beings. Right? And so
between the Moatazalid and the alit was really
the the discussion was,
really crystallized.
And, you know, the Mu'tazilid, as you know,
they really emphasized too much on
the justice of God. Right?
And and and so
from their perspective,
you know, human beings have freedom of will,
and, of course, they they can choose to
do evil acts. And then they were asked,
okay. What about disease and natural disasters? And
their answer to that was, well,
it it looks bad or it looks suffering,
but it's at at the essence of it
is nothing is bad happening from from the
good God. Right?
And so, anyway, their insistence too much on
the divine justice,
of Allah, It
it was caused that it it the the
group the group broke out and Ashari
basically formed,
a new group, Hassan al Ashari. And,
you know, they they talk about the the,
the powerful god. And then if you take
if you if you, attribute
so much freedom of will to human beings,
basically what you're doing, you're limiting this all
powerful God. So the question became between,
you know, the justice of God and the
omnipotent of God, and Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala.
And so this discussion, of course,
historically,
it's it's it's amazing how how,
still
these things are are being talked about. But
overall, I think in Islamic tradition,
this was the issue, like, between human free
will and and how we can,
still attribute
omnipotent to to Allah
But in the Western scholarship, due to Christianity,
you know, the the the issue is is
totally looked upon, differently.
And,
you know, looking at it from a different
perspective that, we don't have that in our
culture.
But, Taisha, do do you wanna,
add anything or ask?
Yeah,
Well, first, I wanted to congratulate you on
the text because it really was a joy
to read. This is my 2nd time reading
it.
So
I was with, Sheikh Hamza once in in
his office, and
he has a lot of his books there.
So he pointed to to your book, and
he said that this is the book that
I always wanted to write. So I got
a picture of the book, and then I
purchased the book, and then I read it.
And I have to say my first experience
reading the book, I I was going through
the notes because I sometimes take notes on
the margins.
And
I think I was reading it from more
of a technical standpoint because you have so
much detail and information in there in terms
of the verses and then when you go
to the tradition
and then the stories of the prophet and
so forth. This second time,
I found it to be a great healing,
actually, you know, just to go through it.
It was a very hopeful it's a very
hopeful text when you read through it. I
feel like it gives you a very encompassing
view of Balaar. And one of the things
that I really like that you mentioned in
there that as you mentioned in in Iran,
but also in the South Asian culture, Balar
Ibtila is always is definitely looked upon as
a negative thing.
But you made it a very interesting point
in the text that it's also prosperity is
also a and
it's on both sides. So it's not just
the suffering, but even when you're in a
situation where there's lots of blessings,
if you're not careful in terms of how
you're responding or how you look at them,
that can be a source of for
you as well.
So I thought that was it was it
was a excellent point. So Absolutely.
Yeah. Thank you for pointing that out, doctor
Ayesha. Because that was one of the other,
major findings
of of this research was that,
you know,
contrary to popular belief that, like I said,
Ballot has a negative
connotation as always in suffering and hardship.
The Quran
totally paints a different portrait.
You know?
Basically,
informing the audience, the it's readers,
the believers that, you know what? Every second
of your life,
whether in well-being,
in prosperity,
in health, or otherwise,
you are you are, you know, in that
specific condition or or situation that you're in.
This is the way that you are going
to grow and you step up the spiritual
ladder.
Now whether we realize it or not, that's
a different story.
Right?
But,
it is truly, truly every moment.
Like,
the this this comes up very much that,
you know,
You know, when we give
a NEEMA,
to someone. Right? And they have everything that
they want, and the person says, oh, my
Allah has has granted me graciously
and Akram and Ekram. Right?
But when we,
give them hardship
or their sustain is is is less than.
Right?
Oh, god. Allah has humiliated me.
No. This is not the case.
You
you are being tested.
Right?
Every single moment or or in Surat Al
Ambiya, We will test you in the good
with the good and the bad. So this
was one of the other major findings, and
thank you for pointing it out
because,
it totally,
shows us that from the organic perspective,
you know, we are responsible,
and we can grow
in every situation of life. Right?
Someone who has financial difficulties,
there is a test for them. You know,
sometimes individuals go through the test by their
own, but sometimes other people become artists.
Right? The situations of a community or other
people
actually puts you. And and so,
Allah, there's a verse in the Quran that
talks about different prophets and says,
you know, we test some people with others.
So there is there is this wisdom behind
this creation,
and that's why this purpose
should be highlighted all the time that there's
a purpose. Even for someone who is in
despair and anxiety and and not really getting
the point,
they should be always reminded there is a
purpose. Look inside.
Mhmm. Look inside. Get closer to the source
of your being,
and you will be guided that there is
a purpose.
There is a lesson.
This shall pass too. Right? As we say
in in in Persian,
In in
In Niz Buksanat. Yes. The the the ring
of the king.
Yes. Yes. Absolutely.
So,
but, you know, getting closer to the source
of your being, and you will be you
will be,
you will get calmness
even through the hardest time
even through the hardest times. I love this
extra love.
I always should remember that.
Yeah. You know, the, we we've we've read
recently Boethius,
his book on the consolation of philosophy, which
is very much aligned with this view.
And I think one of the things that
well, let me let me just, this is
this is from,
Imam Khoshedi.
He gives these definitions of tribulation, and they're
just they're so fantastic.
So tribulation
is the
the hallmark
of,
sainthood.
So whoever's,
tribulation is perfected, his sainthood is perfected.
Tribulation is a gift from reality
and an and a drawing nearness of the
people of sincerity.
Tribulation
is the vehicle of lovers,
and it is the gift of the one
tried in tribulation.
That is
a
the disciplining the the disciplining
of of removing this otherness that we're trapped
in, the distraction of otherness.
And it's a way of approximate,
bringing close,
the best.
You know? So so this, again, I think
what you point out and I and it
was really useful
was, you know, that the
the, the the the exegetes, the
were were really looking
at. You know, they they would point it
out, but they really didn't go deep into
this,
this central aspect. But but it was really
the the scholars amongst the
mystics who did,
and you use,
Maulana Rami
and, Imam Al Ghazali as the 2 central
figures. But before I get to that because
there's a couple of things,
that I wanted to
to to to point out about this just
for the listeners. I'm I mean, you,
this has been, your your life's work in
some ways. But,
one of the really fascinating things in our
tradition is this,
difference of opinion, amongst the scholars.
Is the khipab of Allah? Is Allah's discourse
to his to God's creation,
is it is the is the taqlib for
or is it for?
Is is in other words, is god tell
telling us to do these things,
in order that we do it, or is
it actually an?
Is it a test for the human being?
And then, who's
one of my favorite scholars, from the Maliki
School, he says the is that it's because
it's the condition
is not,
your the
your ability to do it.
You you the is
It's it's it's given to you
whether you can do it or not. And
so it's in the heart where the test
is. Do you want to do it if
you can't do it,
or would you not do it, if you
could do it? And so the test
is going to be,
whether you you fulfill
or whether you don't or whether you want
to fulfill
or whether you don't.
So either way, the heart's being tested.
But but the the other thing before we
get into this, I wanted to ask you
about,
I I thought the the summations of the
prophets was fantastic. I thought you did a
really for for as concise as it is,
I thought you did a really
wonderful
job
at at just showing us,
first of all, the stages because, again,
because of the nature of the Quran,
one has to
it's not a narrative with the exception of
Surat Youssef. And and part of the part
of the interesting
aspect of Surat Youssef, it's really
God showing us, if I want to do
a narrative, I can do a narrative. I've
already done that. It's called the bible. But
here's an exam just to show you that
I can do it.
So so the chapter of Yusuf to me
is a is a really interesting chapter because
it's it's such a beautiful narrative,
and yet Allah
says, I'm that's not what I'm gonna be
doing in this book except for this chapter.
And so you've really done that
remarkable piecing together. But I was wondering why
you excluded Iblis.
I mean, you you did talk about Iblis,
a little bit,
but I think he's so central to the
because he really gets
the
and and and he's he's he's so central
to our story.
And I that I was curious about that,
and then I was curious why you didn't
put Adam
with a separate kind of,
chapter in there
or section in that chap.
Right.
So, you know, because Adam,
the story of the creation and the fall
is been discussed in the context
of, the mystical dimension of Islam in in
chapter 4. And so because I wanted to
discuss that,
whole narrative of the war on from that
particular perspective,
Bruno. The other prophets,
because of their advocacy communities and, you know,
the the whole story in the Quran
are so distinct from prophet Adam,
sallallahu.
Right?
Prophet Adam, because of the the his creation
and and the story of the fall
and his repentance,
I think,
from my perspective, what's best,
will be fitted
in the whole,
context of the of the mystical dimension in
chapter 4.
Because I think the whole,
topic of the fall,
really is telling us that
you were created for this earth,
not for the heaven.
You know?
Contrary to popular belief that,
I've been asked this question a lot. Why
did we why did we have to leave,
heaven? And, like, I I just smile at
people and say, we weren't created for the
heaven. We were created to come here and
earn the heaven,
you know, and and to find Allah meaningfully,
you know, to
to truly submit
and then get our way back to heavens.
Right? So we were created in the best
stature,
but then we have to come to this
earth and and go through these experiences.
And so prophet Adam, to answer your question,
I think that
because of this story of of the fall,
I felt like his story is best to
be addressed,
from that,
that particular perspective.
As far as Satan is concerned, like you
said, I don't discuss,
Satan
too much,
because I felt like Satan just needs
a whole chapter,
you know, just just for that. And,
believe it or not, I've been thinking about
writing, actually, a whole, at least an article,
about,
his role
in the creation. Because as you know from
the mystical perspective,
you know, Satan is is not as bad
as we think it is. Right? He is
he's really the the differentiator.
Right? He's he's the line
where,
we can say,
do I go this way or do I
go that way? And so he, you know,
is really actualizing
a divine plan.
And anything that has an instrumentality
in providing
actualization of the divine plan cannot be can
it's not bad.
There's a whole purpose behind,
his his acts and his creation.
According to some of the Sufis, actually, Satan,
Satan has has a very, very high rank
because he's the one who who separates people
from the true believers
and, and the people who actually go astray.
So you're right. I don't discuss him, discuss
Satan in in great detail except for the
story of,
of of the fall and, the frustration,
story and the reason behind that.
You know what? In terms of go ahead,
doctor Aisha. Sorry. You go ahead. Go ahead.
No. You go ahead. No. I was saying
to your point on that on page 112,
that was one section that I thought was
very interesting
because you're talking about the spiritual development,
and then you referenced where
we talk about, Allah
says that you were created.
And then you're kind of at this high
state. You're brought down to as far as
and then you're trying to go back up,
you know, and then hence the the verse
that we always recite. Right, when there is
a calamity
of sorts or when we're in difficulty. Right?
To Allah, we belong unto him. We we
shall return. So the idea is that we
did come from this excellent state. We were
brought down,
and now it's up to us to get
back there. That spiritual ladder that you referenced,
I think, in this section. Right. And the
test the you know, these things are gonna
come and it's this as you pointed out,
that nice quote at the end from John
Hicks about the soul making process, that this
is about us
becoming, you know, just better human beings and
understanding
how we are to respond to the different
situations that we're on just so that we
can get back to that excellence and and
and meet our Lord. So I thought that
that one paragraph there, I thought was very
interesting. So I appreciate that a lot.
Thank you. Yeah. We have been created in
the best stature, you know, as Salih Tagovim.
And so matter who as well as Safeline.
So as well as Safeline really is is
is is how we react in this earth,
and we are,
you know, hopefully getting our way back up,
you know,
to get to who we really are. That's
why I keep saying, I think, in the
conclusion of this chapter,
saying that,
you know, we should,
this is all because
we we want to become and Allah wants
us to become who we are in essence.
Our essence
is is divine.
Right? And so,
you know, we, there's there's this,
a last verse in the Quran in,
chapter Suratul,
Arab,
173, I believe,
that Allah says that
Did I did I did I not,
ask you for the covenant that I am
your lord?
And and you said,
Remember
that Balah, actually, Balah is there too. Balah
meaning, yes, you are our lord. Yeah. And
and so from the mystical perspective
and the Sufi interpretation, this is so interesting.
They said, Bala, and now Bala is is
here that we don't recognize that that covenant.
Right? And so we go through life and
we forgot.
We totally forget that.
You know what? You were shown
that you can come back in unity with
Allah, Insha'Allah, one day. But you have to
go through this experience, and then why are
you complaining?
You know, the reward is so beautiful.
The reward, it's it's so wonderful
that,
you know, but but but they seem to
forget. So
thank you, doctor Aisha, for pointing that out.
But yeah. That's why self knowledge, matter for
to NAFS or
matter of
These are all topics that,
I try to bring into the discussion to
sort of enrich the discussion and say that,
you know, in order for us to to
submit and become
who we really are in essence, we have
to know ourselves.
You know, self knowledge
is is is number 1 is is is
the first priority. It should be the first
priority for every human being,
especially for a believer in the Quran,
to get their path back to Allah
Yeah. He he said there's never been a
revelation that didn't have know thyself in some
way.
That all of them, that was central to
the revelation.
And so,
you know, he says,
So he says that that ayah is actually
if somebody reflects on it,
that the purpose is to reveal these signs
in ourselves
so that we finally know the truth.
In your own souls, don't you see
because of the and and you you talk
about that. Couple of things I wanted to
one, about,
Iblis.
I mean, I think that's to me, it's
more of a gnostic,
view.
And, you know, the
I I think
there are there are a group of of
Sufis that did, but I'd I'd prefer the
view that
Iblis is you know, he's resentful.
He's an enemy of our species.
That he has a purpose is undeniable.
He taught he taught Abu Herrera,
Ayatir Khorsi, so he definitely has some benefits.
But
but
he's no friend of mine. You know? Like
this one says, a friend of the devil
is a friend of mine. No. Thanks.
Stay away from him. Right?
Exactly.
Yeah.
I don't even like to mention his name,
you know, because he's he's not somebody I
want around. Yeah.
Right. Unfortunately, right now, he's a little, you
know,
tempered by Ramadan.
So we then we get to see how
horrible the naps
Allah and Dunya is.
Right. Right. You know, I think I I
think you point out a good point,
Sheikh Hamzah. So but I think at at
the heart of what you said,
I, that's just how I read it is
that the fact that,
you know, when we say evil,
what it really means
what is what is darkness? It's the lack
of light. Right. Probation.
Yeah. So it because it doesn't have it
doesn't have a positive entity. Right? When the
light is dim, then then you have darkness.
So when we are
when our distance is away from Allah
and our heart is filled up with other
things,
then Satan is there whether we accept it
or not. Yeah. Right? Exactly. So so,
in order to stay away from the temptations
or or means by which
Satan, you know, pushes that towards different,
direction
is to have that light. Right?
The light of Allah and and prepare our
hearts, Insha'Allah,
for for his love because that his love
is what's it's is is pointing us
towards him. So we have to pay attention
to that yearning of of the love that
is between
the divine and and the humankind.
Right? And so with that light and that
love, then Satan then
we don't have to worry about him that
too much.
So
so I,
I I want to ask you a little
bit maybe to go into,
because we're big fans of,
Mauna here. We have actually,
a Rumi scholar in the,
in the audience,
today
here. But,
you
know, Rumi, he he's
the fact that,
you know, when we used to do courses
in Kunya,
doctor Aisha Random. And,
what really struck me, 1 I think one
of the most powerful things about
is people from all over the world
come
and like Japanese. They're not even Muslims.
You know, they just cut like, he's like
the light that attracts all these moths,
and and it's just amazing to see that.
The fact also that he's actually Belhi,
and yet
he's called Arumi.
You know? So he seems like he's so
appropriate for the west.
Mhmm. He has so much to tell the
west. And I think one of the things,
that I thought about that your book really
generated,
a lot of thought in my mind. One
of the things is why didn't the the
the
outside of the Sufis, why didn't the
scholars
really focus on this aspect
of, of trial and tribulation? And I think
one of the reasons one of the conclusions
that I came to, and you could agree
or disagree, but one of the one of
the conclusions I came to is I think
the premodern world
had such a better understanding
of suffering.
And I think modern people are so divorced
from they try to
just
mitigate
life to such a degree where they just
want all suffering
taken out. We want air conditioning.
We want, you know, the food. I mean,
even the coffee has to be, you know,
98.5,
you know, when they go to the Starbucks.
They want it exactly.
Everything has to be
so in my comfort zone.
And anything that takes me outside of my
comfort zone,
I collapse.
And and you see people really struggling. I
mean, I think a lot of the mental
health issues that we're dealing with, especially in
in this country,
it is
directly related to this inability
to triggers. You know, I'm triggered.
Like, life triggers us.
Mhmm.
So so how are you gonna respond? You
know? And you quoted this verse several times,
and it's one of my favorite verses in
the in the entire Quran.
You know, we made some of you a
tribulation for others.
Will you show patience?
And and and your lord is watching. In
other words, you're being tested,
and this this
we're gonna Allah knows,
but he's gonna reveal to us
how we act in these situations. And so
I think,
that really struck me as,
just something that this book would be very
useful for a lot of people because
of this inability
to grapple with, with just the trials of
life, the tribulations.
And I think that, you know, the premoderns
Seneca says never trust
fortune. Just never trust fortune. If you're on
the top,
just expect the bottom any day. And I
think the Sahaba were very much in that
mindset.
Mhmm. They they actually used to see times
of of laxity.
They they would be in a bit of
trepidation because they knew it was gonna be
followed by tribulation. But when the tribulation came,
they relaxed because they knew it would be
followed
by
laxity. So, you
know, Allah
with hardship comes ease.
And so I just you know, maybe you
could comment a little bit on that.
Right. I think one worst that comes to
my mind, which I I don't believe that
I have referenced this in the book, but
this is in Surat al Hadid.
2 verses back to back.
I'm not gonna
recite the Arabic because I may say it
wrong, but the translation
the the the gist of it is that,
Allah is telling us that,
everything that happens
in you,
with you, and outside of you,
is in the Kitabul moving.
Even uses the term Musiba.
Right? Calamity.
And so
and then the the next verse says, I'm
telling you this.
This is my warning
because
you should not,
get puffed up
with everything going according to your plan and
everything is hokey dokey.
And, do not go to despair
when when you are in
suffering or when things are not another words,
be content
with whatever situation and condition
that that you you are placed in. This
is not to say, of course, that,
Islam is preventing us or the Koran is
preventing us from,
you know, working harder, having a better life,
you know, financial,
you know, being prosperous so that we can
also help others who are in need. This
is,
you know, I don't want this misunderstanding
to arise that, okay, then we should just,
you know, some some like like some Sufis
sit at home and say and
and
and we don't do any work. That's that's
in my book, that's laziness. Right? That is
not.
But but but, really, the the the two
verses in Surah Al Hadid and the entire
Surah Al Hadid is one of my,
most favorite,
chapters of the Quran,
because of the first six verses,
about the divine attributes. And and the whole
chapter really,
it's it's amazing. I think this this chapter
should be read, this Surah, every single day.
And, every time I read it, I get
something new out of it. Right? And it
it's sort of puts you in this condition
that just be content
and and don't,
you know, don't complain about your situation. There
are people who complain about everything. You know,
today is raining, and people are complaining about
rain. Half of the world are are praying
for this rain, and they don't get a
drop of rain. And we have so much
rain here in the northeast in New York.
People complain.
Right?
Whether it's sunny or it's too much sunny,
whether it goes up a little.
Like, everything becomes like you said,
people are spoiled, you know, and and, unfortunately
and I think when you say premodern people,
Sheikh Hamza, I think it goes back to
the whole idea
that previously pre modern,
you know,
believers, at least in in the believing
communities,
the idea
of having a dynamic
Allah,
creator, sustainer was at the at the forefront
of, of of their lives. Right?
Whereas in the modern time,
rarely we see that.
Right? Yeah. Allah
Allah or god is static. Even people who
believe
believe in this God, there is the Allah,
but there is no wrap.
Yeah. You know? Just like when we read
the the whole Quran, we see that in
the in the time of the prophet Muhammad
sallallahu.
You know,
all the all the Arabs, they believed in
Allah. They they knew that they there was
a creator.
Right?
But what they didn't believe in and the
prophet was trying to teach them, that was
their rap.
Right?
And so the the rebubia
is is what we are missing, I think.
And so
so at the heart of it, what you
said is absolutely true
that everything
has to be perfect for the modern modern
people. But I think at the heart of
it or at the root of it, perhaps,
I could be wrong. But perhaps it goes
back to the whole idea of not,
really,
understanding the.
You know, they understand the the
the or the createness of Allah, the the
halakh.
But but but not the fact that,
you know,
the same Allah is your rap. And rap
means
you are to,
you know, you ought to
align everything in your life, every single moment
of your life with the purpose of that
draft.
Mhmm. And I think perhaps that's where,
you are,
or the modern time, like you said, people
are just wanting everything. And like I said
at the beginning,
trying to just get rid of the experience
and mitigate and
and try to avoid.
The same way goes with, thinking about death.
Right?
God forbid
God forbid somebody brings up, death.
It's like they wanna assassinate you. Like, you
know, they or there you talk about let's
talk about life.
They totally forget that if you talk about
death, that means you value life.
You know, otherwise, this stuff left. You know,
life just goes by so quickly.
Yeah. Right?
And so yeah. So I I agree with
you a 100% that there's a big difference
between the pre modern,
you know,
and and now, unfortunately.
Well, I I had
a really
you know, and I think some people think
that somehow I sentimentalized
it or romanticized it, but I actually experienced
premodern people
when I when I was in Mauritania in
the desert back in the eighties. And these
people were people that really had almost no
contact
with with,
modernity.
And what really struck me about them is
1, they never complained.
Mhmm. I mean, they just did not
complain.
And I remember one
person was telling me some of the symptoms
they were having,
because, you know, people would come for me
for medical
advice.
But, this person came to me, and then
and then he said, I'm not complaining.
You know? He said,
I'm just telling you
my situation, but I'm not complaining, alhamdulillah.
And and that was very and and these,
you know, these were theocentric people, and I
think so much of the Muslim world had
that theocentricity,
which
obviously we're losing as modernity,
and postmodernity
now makes its encroachment
on the Muslim world. You know, a lot
of Muslims are losing
these things. I mean, I saw a Moroccan
in in the late seventies,
pass by a piece of bread that was
on the
the, just the ground, and he picked it
up, put it on his head, and then
put it
on a on a,
like, a gate
up on just because he saw Anetna on
the ground.
Gotcha.
And and so these these
these people were very common in the Muslim
world,
and, and I think, it's just a testimony
to
the centrality
of Shukar,
in our tradition. And and, you know, you
you you you touched on it
at towards the end about sabr and shukr,
you know, these two attributes that were so
central,
and they're certainly central in.
Allah said these are signs for people that
are constantly patient and constantly grateful. You know,
sabar is constant. It's a, you know,
it's a it's
a form in Arabic. And then shakur is
it's a hyperbolic form. So,
you know, kalino minidadi is shakur.
Mhmm.
My servants are always grateful.
Mhmm. You know? I mean, some of the
scholars said, thank god,
that he didn't say,
you know, like, just being grateful,
but constantly grateful
even with the tribulations. It's a it's a
very difficult thing to do,
but we've last in, you know, the last
when we were doing Boethius,
this concept of, you know, getting out of
this the ups and downs of life and
the circle of,
of fortune
and the wheel of fortune and getting into
the hub,
which is, I think,
how you really come the end of the
book.
Wow.
When you when you were talking about, Shirk,
I just remember Isidso.
Moshe and this man,
you know, he talks about,
the meaning of kufkufar.
Right?
And even though,
in the popular can popular understanding, when someone
says,
it
means, like, the person doesn't believe in in
in Allah, in God. Right? So literally means
someone who covers,
the the.
Right? The the what
what the truth is.
But when he discusses it, Zuzu, in his,
ethical religious concept of the Quran,
he shows beautifully that how,
you know, lack of gratitude
puts you in in in the condition of
Kufr.
So, basically, not doing the shuk, not not
not being in in a grateful state
is really the meaning of kufr.
One of the meanings. Right? One of the
so Yeah.
Yeah. You also
you also,
it was nice and how in the section
on Rumi, you talked about Sabar and and
Tawakkul.
And then when you went to,
you know, just in the, it's interesting how
I mean, Sheikh Hamzah has brought this up
in his teachings, how we have sabar and
shukar, the kitab, that those
two virtues are put together, and then you
have.
Mhmm. Just the idea that,
you know, this is the whole point. It's
the you're going from
and then it's ultimate
reliance on God. And for Imam Al Khazali,
it was that's the whole
idea
of the best possible of worlds is that
we trust that what we are dealing with
is the best possible of of of things
and that we have that trust in Allah.
So Right. Nice way nice way at the
end to to have that,
Thank you. I really believe that when we
talk about Tawhid, which is
the,
really the corner store of of of Islam.
You remove Tawhid from Islam and this whole
religion collapses. Right? Everything is based
on on on Tawhid.
But,
the fruit of Tawhid is tawakkul.
Right. Yeah.
And I think if you look at it
that way,
and this doesn't mean I mean, we are
all human beings. We, you know, we may
fall, and, I certainly
have fallen, but,
and I have my share of, but you
know what? You quickly get up.
Mhmm. You quickly you you quickly reminded,
right, of of this,
really and
and the fact that,
you are dependent on your trusting the source
of being, and
and and you can quickly,
get up. And so Ghazali, Magazali, and and
Rumi, and other
teachers,
have really taught us, you know. And, of
course, the life of the prophets. So our
prophet, our beloved prophet,
is
is full of,
you know,
the the the fruit of the tawhid, which
is. So,
you know,
we have so much
guidance.
And this is this is, like, the blessing.
This is, like,
I don't know what we would have done.
How could we survive,
without,
this guidance, you know?
The shafa of the Quran,
the Hidayat of the Quran,
you know, and and and the guidance
that it provides, especially the life of the
prophet. So,
that's all that I can say.
Yeah. Well, the and that's what go ahead.
Aisha, did you No. No. Sure. That was
just me.
Yeah. Thank you all so much. We can,
Insha Allah, Doctor. Masjid. Our our audience really
enjoyed,
this book, and they benefited so much from
it.
We do have iftar coming up in in
Berkeley soon. So, inshallah, if we can move
to the q and a.
What time is it?
Yeah. No. We have 20, 30 minutes. Yeah.
2 just couple of things. 1, I wanted
to
just because,
you know, every book
has to have,
other than the book of Allah,
is has to have something
you know, so I I wanted to clarify
one thing because,
I, you know, I've encouraged people to read
the book, and and I really I love
this book, and I'm gonna continue to encourage
people to read it. But I thought you
were a little unfair
with the Ashaddis.
Yeah. That's fair. That's fair. Yeah. Yeah. So
I just want because we're we're,
big lovers
of Nasir ad Din Natusi,
the Tajirid
is is one of the great works. And
it's a shared work, interestingly. I think it's
one of the rare
shared works between two traditions because the the
Sunni scholars
have commented,
you know, the Hanbalis,
the Safaris
have commented on it. And then the Shia
scholars have commented on it, obviously.
But,
I just wanted to on the on the
Hasan and Khobah.
Uh-huh. So the, you know, the, this is,
Imam Irbiya Bawi's,
Nisha R'atawaleh, which is a foundational
it's a very highly regarded,
text,
and this is the commentary
of,
of,
Zekelyzadeh
Zekelyzadeh.
But he he
he clarifies
that the the difference of the Hasan and
Qubah, you know, this idea that,
the intellect can't reach,
So I
in several places that the Ash'adis don't believe
that, but the the Asharis do believe that
the taksin and takbir.
There there are areas that the intellect can
absolutely make taksin and takbir.
And so he says that,
that the,
the the three things. The first is,
is an idea like sifa to kamal, something
that's,
attribute of perfection like knowledge.
So the intellect can reach the idea that
knowledge is good and ignorance is bad. This
is a Hakam
Akli. It's not a Hakam Shar'i.
And the same with Hayar and Shar and
all these things. But where where and then
the second is, like, the,
moral sentiments. You know, this idea,
of Adam Smith and and Hume and others
that
a lot of morality is just personal preference.
Like, you know, I don't like this and
therefore it's bad.
I like this and therefore it's good. And
he says that's the second type. It's the
that's.
You know, it's something that is,
it's it's in concert with one's desire.
But the third,
is
So it has to do with,
you know, can we put a moral valence
on something that has a punishment?
This is where
for the acha'aris, they said this is a
a hukum shari. It's not a hukum akhli.
That Allah
determines like, we can punish people for murder
with positive law, and the intellect reaches that.
Murder is bad. Some will say with the,
no. All murder is bad, and therefore, we'll
just put them in jail.
Something like that. That's all, tahsin and takbih
of the intellect.
But to say that somebody's going to
go to *
for an act
or be rewarded
for an act
in some ultimate sense, that's Hakam
Sharay,
that the intellect has no access
to the that valence of tahsin and taqibiyah.
So I just wanted to make that
distinction because I I thought it was,
you know, it was it was just too
general the way it was presented without the
nuance of that. So and that's that's only
for the the readers. Like I said, I
have it's such a marvelous work, and you
did such an incredible
job, And I have nothing but praise for
the work, but I just wanted that one,
clarification.
Thank you. Yeah. And and I I don't
wanna go into deep to to that discussion
as as I think you had a question
about Rumi and Azali that we wanna get
into. But,
you know, this goes back to the intrinsic
value of acts, I think. That's where the
a little bit of a misunderstanding
or maybe contradiction comes up whether or not
acts themselves. Right? They do have intrinsic value
of goodness and badness in them
or not. And I think that's that's a
discussion for another time. But thank you for
thank you for pointing that out. Right? I
think either either you or sister Aisha, I
think some or some somebody had said something
about Rumi before. Oh, you you said something
about Rumi, Shah Hamza. What did you wanna
know about Rumi? That you you want me
to explain something on Rumi?
No. I thought I thought we we we
covered that. I think we'll open it up
to to questions, though. Okay. Great.
Assalamu alaikum. I believe
we're taking questions from the live audience today
in addition to online.
So I think they're setting that up now.
Doctor Nasreen, has this book been translated into
Persian?
It hasn't, and,
I've been thinking about it.
That was from
a a person speaker who was asking that
question. Yes. No. It hasn't. If if you
know of a good translator, I'd be happy
to.
Because, like I said, my article has been
translated into Arabic,
which is the gist of the book, but,
Persian, not yet. Inshallah, maybe one day.
We do have one online question.
There's someone that says, how how should people
who have seemingly no suffering in their life
see their situation and their relationship to God?
How can they best prepare themselves to answer
for their blessings in the hereafter?
The first part of the question, I didn't
hear you. So how could they, approach the
suffering of their life? Is that the question?
How should how should they see their situation
and their relationship
to God if they don't seem to have
any suffering in their lives?
Oh, if there is no suffering?
Yes.
Mhmm.
So like we said, you know, every situation
of life is is,
you know, is a test. So,
that in in their well-being, if they are
wealthy,
they can spend up the money in in
the in the way of Allah.
And that would bring them closer to Allah.
If they are healthy,
they can perform,
you know, the,
reading the Quran,
helping others who are in need, you know,
going and taking care of someone who's elderly,
providing, you know, community services
where they live. I think all of the,
you know, the Quran talks about Amalasaleh hot.
Amalasaleh
really,
brings us back and and brings us closer
to our source of being to Allah.
If there's no suffering
through the through the wellness, through through being
prosperous,
and through, ways by which they can,
show their commitment and their devotion,
to Allah.
Although I I I have it hard to
believe because I've I've been suffered a lot.
So,
I I have yet to to meet someone
who who has no suffering in their life,
that it would remain this way. But,
you know, getting closer to Allah has many,
many ways that that that they could do
that.
Thank you so much, doctor.
We have another,
online text question, and this one is,
how do we reconcile holding people accountable for
the suffering they cause to others and also
regarding suffering as a type of blessing from
God and enduring? There seems to be a
tension between the 2. Do we differentiate between
fitna and bala?
Dispatcher.
Yeah. Great question.
So, you know,
it this is really multifid I mentioned on
this question. Right? The first portion has to
go with,
has to do with the individual hardship or
the individual suffering that that people go through.
I should have mentioned, which I neglected to
say, in during the discussion that
when we say that suffering,
or share
in in this world,
is an instrument of our law, this is
not to this is this does not mean
that we should not prevent evil
or we should be welcoming evil acts. Not
at all. Right? Everyone
all of us are responsible for
preventing evil, you know, fighting the injustices of
the world whether individually or collectively as a
community.
That, I mean, we should learn from our
prophet,
our beloved prophet who fought for the rights
of the people,
for the vulnerable, for the orphans, for the
widows. Right? The social justice was one of
the main,
essence of the messages of of the prophet
sallallahu. Right? So
acknowledging Allah and
acknowledging that there's a creator
without,
you know,
really doing these,
deeds to to, you know, prevent evil and
to
promote social justice and help others really doesn't
mean anything.
So,
the the person who's asking this question, you're
absolutely right. We should hold people accountable,
for their action. Right? With every every possible
means that we we we we we we
have in our disposal. Right?
Following the law and and and, you know,
making sure that they pay for
now what they have caused suffering for other
people.
So,
that is is is one aspect. The other
aspect is really to,
individually try to come up with ways by
which we do not go to despair. Right?
I mean,
pro prophet Job is is perfect example in
the Quran where,
his story is very is remarkable where he
is attributing everything to Allah. When he had
everything, everything goes back. He didn't claim ownership.
And when he was afflicted with the serious
disease,
he still didn't complain to Allah. Right? His
story in the Quran is different than Jewish
Christian
tradition where he actually questions God. Why am
I going through this? In the Quran, he
does not. He actually says, oh, Allah, everything
great comes from you. Satan
is the one who has
inflicted me this hardship and this despair.
So
going back to, to your question, you know,
trying to,
prevent evil, trying to
make people accountable. But at the same same
time,
you know, trying to learn from the experiences
and and conditions that we have no control
over. You know, we are sometimes putting in
in situations that we just have to reflect
on it, have to have a call, and
ask Allah for guidance and,
you know, be patient. And and,
the situation,
you know, get the lesson and the situation
would resolve.
I don't know if I answered all of
the parts of the question. If I didn't,
please repeat the question and I come back
to it again. Yeah.
No. That I'm really glad you you brought
that up because I I think that's
a area that some people get confused about.
And you you mentioned that at that
point, yeah, which was well taken.
Sometimes
it's because everything's,
then it's like there's no accountability,
and and it leaves people,
I think, in a sense of, you know,
that
god is unjust
then, which,
is is a very,
I think it's it's just completely wrong.
So I'm really that's that's a really important
point that you you you brought up, especially
in the light of a lot of what
we see now because,
unfortunately, in the past, you could live without
having to see all the injustices all over
the world. But now people live in a
global
environment where they're just inundated.
The
there's there's a Mauritanian
poet. He said,
Like, I I run away
from the television screen out of shame,
from the things that I see on it
that cause
that that lead me to to
impotence and and pain. Like, I can't do
anything about it, and I have all this
pain. And then he says,
like
the tear of a child that I can't
wipe away.
Or the blood of an innocent person that
I can't try to stop that blood from
being shed. So we're just in a a
really difficult time for people.
So that was a really important point you
made. Thank you.
We also had this question
about how we can achieve the hub
necessary to have complete,
which I mean, that's a very big question,
but that's worth thinking about.
To reach the, how can we reach the
level of tobacco? Is that the question? That
is the question.
Well, you know, this goes back to discussion
in the book regarding Imam Ghazali and, of
course, Rumi as well. But, especially Imam Ghazali
with the experience that he had,
You know, this special crisis, the physical crisis
that he had.
And,
the Ghazali that we know today is is
through that experience. You know? He was really
he he went through this internal transformation.
You know, he was a great theologian,
a jurist,
fairy. You know?
The best of the best of of his
time.
And yet, he started questioning,
you know, his teachings.
And in his autobiography says that I realized
that my teaching hasn't really brought me certainly
Yabin, and he was after Yabin.
And and why this teaching hasn't brought me
closer to Allah
and that's when, you know, he goes through
this,
what what appears to be a negative.
Right? But it's wholly positive.
And, it transforms him truly.
And,
it's after that that he writes
and
and so, you know, he's transformed and and
really true true,
shocker, through Sabar, and and and through the
through tobacco. So,
in order to to answer the question
of how to reach the level of Tabakkul
is really by practice.
Right?
And and
having the sincerity,
I think that if we are sincere with
ourselves,
if we are truly honest with ourselves
and we,
you know, we
acknowledge
our, you know, incompetency.
You know, we acknowledge our age
that we cannot reach that point without the
help of Allah.
You know, the Quran constantly reminds us that
Right? So,
it's not that when things are good, everything
is on our our hand and everything.
Like, I'm running the show up until this
point, and, oh, and and now things are
bad. Okay. Allah, take over, please.
Right? Like, it it doesn't work like that.
Right? And so,
I think that's where most most of us
may may may struggle to to reach the
level of tobacco
that that that we want because,
day by day, we live and and and
we are prosperous and everything.
You know, we take ownership.
Whereas, we don't owe anything.
Nothing at all. Right? And until we realize
that,
and we are totally honest with ourselves, I
think the tobacco
may may stay at at the bottom of
our priorities.
And where we we realize our edge, you
know, our incompetence
in in front of Allah,
that even my breathing, my moving my hand,
the words that are come out is everything
through through the power of Allah,
then tawakkul is born.
You know, that's that's the meaning of tawhid.
Right? So tawakkul as a fruit,
of of tawhid is really born, I think,
through through practice, not necessarily through intellectual,
acknowledgements because we may read a lot of
book about tobacco and how others do it.
But until we actually practice it
in everyday life,
we won't get there. And I think
with the grace of Allah, Insha'Allah, with with
the help of Allah, especially during this month
last month of Ramadan and the the the
few days that is left of it, we
should be asking,
to reach that level of
and be sincere, first of all, with with
ourselves
and with
Allah
inshallah. Maybe one more question.
I think we have something really special here
that I just saw, Sheikh Hamza and doctor
Okay.
Kamal, can you unmute?
Yes.
It's a it's almost time right now.
There's a problem, but this is the for,
so
I'm gonna have to
this is at right now.
And, every year, I get on with the
Sheikh Hamza
just to give salam's
Thank
you.
Yeah. Keep us in your So nice. Keep
us in your, Sheikh Hamza. We're we're we're
all praying for you and the people on
the West Bank and in Gaza and all
these places, but we also need your prayers.
I think one of the things that
that,
the people there have shown us
is that,
you know, they have because there's there's still
the,
in spite of everything.
I mean, the the what's happening there is
such a
living example what what doctor Nasreen called this
existential
aspect of this. And one of the things
that doctor Janard Dudley said recently, which I
thought was so profound,
He said, you know, we look at, like
you talk about the people of Gaza, but
individuals.
You know, there there there's all these individuals
that are having their human experiences
and and their hearts,
and each one of them is in their
own separate tribulation,
with Allah
So it's very easy to kind of collectivize
and forget that these are individual human beings
and, with dignity and worth and and
and,
Allah bring security and
peace. I mean I mean, there's like a
lot of people that's all I say comes
to you. So I'm gonna get to pray
inshallah.
No. I don't know. I appreciate it. Absolutely.
Doctor Nasrin, again, I just you are one
of our heroes.
You've just done such a remarkable,
service, I think, to the Quran
because as you know, a lot of Muslims,
they recite the Quran, but they don't study
the Quran.
And you're somebody that just has done such
a great service. And there it's there's so
much richness
in the work that you've done, and we
just,
just feel very grateful,
for your work and maybe you have lots
of tophic.
And and also, this is a real invitation
for you to come out and meet with
our students and maybe,
give,
some lectures here at Zaytuna. We we'd really
love to have you.
I would be privileged,
delighted to come to Zaytona. It has been
my dream actually to come visit,
you know, Zaytona College for years. I think
I told you on the phone.
Yeah.
Maybe repeat that because it was so what
such a wonderful,
what you told me. I was so moved
by it.
Yeah. Yeah. Many, many years ago, I think.
It was right after a few years after
you had opened the college.
And I started doing my PhD and started
teaching Islamic studies even though my other field
was in technology and computer engineering, and I
was a director of,
you know, IT. And so,
you know, that wasn't fulfilling me. So I
went into Islamic studies and, anyway, getting the
doctorate and teaching, some course and
other religions. And,
one day, this just came to me, this
overwhelmed feeling. I just went to the web,
and I searched Daytona College.
And I said to my husband,
you know, one day, I'm gonna be teaching
at Daytona College.
And,
and he said, but where is it? And
I said, brick Berkeley, California.
He said, you know we live in New
York. Right?
I said
We have all the students here. So you've
been teaching our students at Humbria.
Thank you. But thank you so much. You're
very modest. Like, you were in IT, but
you were also director of, like, a major
in New York City. So
Thank you. Thank you. Very modest. Yeah. Thank
you. But but but the the idea behind
Zaytuna College and the initiative was so moving
to me even though it was the beginning
of
of this adventure for, for you and the
rest of your team.
But it was it was such a blessing
and such a a great pleasure to see
something like this actually happening,
in in the US.
It was just a dream
that had come true, and I just felt
like, wow. I would love to be part
of that. So maybe inshallah one day,
this this dream comes true.
Inshallah.
Inshallah. But thank you very much again for
this opportunity. Thank you for,
you know, having the book,
on the book club, and I I really
do appreciate all the attention.
I wasn't expecting this, but this is this
is just all through the Allah,
blessing, and I am grateful to him
and to you,
Sheikh Hamza Yusuf for providing the opportunity. Thank
you so much. Thank
you.
In his hekam, he says,
you know, to lighten the burden of tribulation
is he's giving you the knowledge that he's
the one testing you. So it happened.
May God bless you,
increase you, elevate you. May you have lots
of more openings in the book of Allah.
Yes. Yeah. And and we really hope that
you come visit us, Thank you so much,
doctor Nasim. Thank you, doctor Aisha, as always.
And the Data part about the always.
Sure.
My pleasure. Thank you everyone for joining us.
Have wonderful rest of the days in in
Ramadan and and, make dua for us inshallah
as well.
Inshallah, thank you very much for, this beautiful,
presentation. May Allah bless you, doctor Rosary.
And, it's not complete if you don't do
19,
from the in
regard to your discussion on the shaitan and
what sheikh talked
about.
M.
Add that to the next edition.
Yeah.
Don't say me and don't compare and and
and this is this is beautiful. This is
beautiful. Thank you.
The veil of the highness, you know, 11,
1 beautiful poetry
of of,
Rumi about, tribulation is that
when we beat the rock,
you know, we,
don't really beat the rock. We wanna get
the dust out.
Right?
And so it's beautiful in Farsi, but English
translation is as best as, like, as I
can say that. So he says that the
the your your is full of the will
of the.
This me, me, man, man, this.
And so this whale is not going to
be taken away
in just one setting. Right? So you're gonna
go through different
tribulations
so that this whale has been removed, this
whale of of the highness.
So what you said about the man and
and the bliss, and
it reminded me of of that poetry as
well. Thank you for sharing that.
Thank you. We look forward to the Persian
translation of the book as well. Inshallah.
Inshallah. With your prayers. Inshallah.