Hamza Yusuf – BBC Radio Five Live – Part 2

			Shaykh Hamza Yusuf is my guest this morning, so many calls. So if you can try and keep your
questions brief, we would appreciate it. It's Mohammed in Birmingham. Very good morning to you, sir.
Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. Good.
		

			question, please. It's due the fact that you've been on a crusade, a Muslim should revive
intellectual tradition, especially the classical heritage of jurisprudence. And many people have
actually started doing that because of your advice. But what they find is that once they start
studying the books and the scholars that are recommended to traditional, traditionalist standing,
the teaching that they have, they find is a teaching which is commonly condemned as being extremist
and fundamentalist. I, myself, tried to study hannity, and especially about jihad. And the very
first line I ever read about classical texts of Islamic jurisprudence on jihad. jihad is is
		

			abbreviation of Muslims, regardless of whether non Muslims attack us or do not attack us. And this
is currently being taught in Islamic seminaries throughout the Muslim world by traditional scholars.
And I find, for instance, what you are saying currently, especially just what you've said recently,
seemed doesn't seem to gel with what you were saying previously. And I honestly find that there's
some sort of ingenuity here, because if we are to discover our heritage, our heritage has aspects
which are which are not compatible with Western civilization.
		

			Just want to bring one point that you brought up?
		

			Let's just say the answer to that. Because Yeah, well, first of all, I would say that, you know,
jihad is an obligation binding upon Muslims, which is defense of the homelands. It's also the
removal of aggression. But the normative practice of the Muslims
		

			has always been that aggression is prohibited. The Quran is very clear on that letter, do Don't be
aggressive in your wars. The Quran says if they are inclined towards peace, then YouTube should
inclined towards peace, the Quran permits and certainly in traditional jurisprudence, the treaties
with with non Muslim nations and those treaties are to be honored. You will find differing views
There is no doubt because like I said earlier, Islam is not theocratic in we know exactly what God
meant, but its human attempts at understanding what God means. And that is why First of all, most of
those laws that deal with international relations that deal with these have nothing to do with your
		

			average Muslims. And when and when your average Muslims begin to take it upon themselves to
implement laws that were that have to do with state policy and state power. This is where the
confusion comes in. It's It's It's none of the average Muslims business to be attempting to apply
laws that are directed to the rulers of a country. And and this is what's known in the assumption is
14 and 45. And 18. Everybody has to like praying five times a day pangs, I call these things key
fire. Only those people that need to do it, do it, the other people don't do it. And certainly in
the in rules relating to government that has nothing to do with the common people that I can see
		

			where the confusion would lie, though. I mean, if you're advocating that people do read these texts,
no, but if they raise them without without qualified teachers, absolutely. You're going to have
serious problems. You can't just pick up a book and read look. In England, no one will allow a
barrister who has not been trained in law school to go out and practice law and constitutional laws.
Certainly, you have to know interpretive practices hermeneutics, you have to learn how to derive
principles. I mean, if we had people reading a book on surgery, and going out and performing
surgery, on people out in the society, It's madness. And so, you know, this idea that I can pick up
		

			my book and become a weekend Mufti is is absolute insanity. Mc is very busy dealing with some of
these cases.
		

			Mohammed, come back, of course you can. And then I want to ask you a question myself. Okay. The
point being, what what I'm trying to say from So you mentioned the Taliban themselves. The thing
about the Taliban is that they were a government. They were Taliban, which means students, they
didn't pick up books and just apply Islamic law. They were, they were advised by Islamic scholars of
a certain tradition in Pakistan, that he'd been to school. They themselves have scholars, and they
interpreted them the standing of Islam and apply it on their on their nation. And that was condemned
by the rest of the world. Yet, from from, from their perspective, implementing Islamic law through
		

			qualified opinion, and then reputation has been accepted by a lot of Muslims in the world. And it's
an interpretation and if they are condemned
		

			You're forcing people who accept that interpretation into the, into an extremist camp? And who
decides, ultimately,
		

			Mohammed, do you feel that you are either tempted or you feel obliged to follow? Yeah, because of
what you've read. And because of what you believe you've been told? No. What I what I want to do is
I want to understand my Islamic heritage, and learn from traditional scholars about Islam, exactly
what your Hamza wishes Muslims to do. Unfortunately, my scholars are the same scholars who learned
with the Taliban. And it cannot be said that the scholars say in Mauritania, or in Egypt, who have a
more liberal understanding, better Islamic scholars and scholars that the Taliban studied under, but
they are both following a tradition. Now I want to study Islam. And then I want Muslims to implement
		

			that in their life. They shouldn't force you amongst other people, but then they shouldn't be
condemned by people for implementing which is traditional Islam, and then said, Oh, these are
people, these are fundamentalists. I mean, we have certain penal laws and other laws, but we will
always be condemned for applying our laws.
		

			First of all, I mean, just in penal punishments, there's six penal punishments in the entire corpus,
all the other ones or go into the category of a judge's discretion in those six all of them should
be avoided,
		

			to the best of one's ability, but the point that it comes to the two, I mean, they said in 800
years, the Ottomans didn't cut off any hands or, or stone any adulterers be because people people
veiled people's faults, if somebody stole from you, if you forgive them, then they're not punished
for it. But if you if you take it to the authorities, then the authorities are obliged to implement
the law. A lot of Muslims don't understand these subtleties, about Islamic law. The problem is the
Taliban were just simply condemned for even attempting to play well, I don't you know, that my
personal feeling about thought I was not there. I didn't see it. And I and I really felt there was
		

			an immense amount of disinformation. It's well known in the West that the the first victim or the
first
		

			the first casualty of war is the truth. And I wasn't there. I didn't see it. So I really don't like
to comment on something that I just and that is a Islamic principle, that you should withhold
judgment to really understand some what is problematic for so many people, though, is the
interpretation of something like Sharia law, we were talking about it on the
		

			killings of women who've been raped, honor killings have nothing to do with Islam. honor killings
occur more in in in us one small segment of the Muslim world. And it they occur amongst Christians
and amongst Muslims. And they used to occur if we just read the cases they believe no, it's not it's
ignorance. There's there's no absolutely no basis for its absolute complete ignorance. I'll give you
an example. There was a time in America, there was a time in Mexico, where people killed their
daughters for dishonouring the family. I mean, you know, this is just a type of a primitive
understanding about about the world that exists in many, many places, and it has nothing to do with
		

			religion. And I think when we conflate religion and culture, when we conflate religion, and, and
human
		

			behavior, then we're in deep trouble. I mean, I think at the essence of the Islamic tradition,
certainly, the the great world religions, at the essence of these traditions is the concept of
mercy. I mean, the Quran begins in the Name of God, the Merciful, the compassion, killing my
daughter, because she's dishonored me, as certainly, I think has nothing to do with the concept of
mercy. Sure, but then why isn't more of a challenge maze in those states? I mean, let's say in
Jordan by honor Tony has condemned no honor killing is condemned by all I've never met anybody. In
the Muslim world. I lived in the Arab world for over 10 years. I've never met anybody that has
		

			justified that they've all seen it as as something that's wretched. And I think even probably the
people that have perpetrated the crime, prior to it actually happening to them probably would have
seen it as odious. But it becomes I mean, this is the nature of cults cultures are very deep and
they have dark elements. I mean, we have dark elements here in the United States, we've, we've we've
aborted over 20 million fetuses since Roe vs. Wade, there's a lot of people that consider that to be
an incredibly barbaric act of of genocide of mass murder. And I know that it's certainly a debatable
point in the secular societies, but there are many the Catholics view that as as as one of the great
		

			crimes against humanity, and yet, it seems to be an acceptable normative practice. We will pick this
up after the news sport in the weather it so 500 909693 here is john caffee. And I keep looking in
envy at the weather in Port Elizabeth, where it's glorious is sunny McCroskey wishes were there 28
degrees Now, remember the BBC Sports department? That's not Yes, I'd like to join my colleagues. But
there you go. Somebody
		

			fly the flag back home.
		

			But anyway, I think it's gonna be a very close finish debit game. There's plenty of life in that one
yet and now we're gonna line of discontinuity in the middle of the country. For example it's 60
degrees in cold war with some sunshine it's 60 degrees also in the Isle of Man Without sunshine.
There's just two in Bristol and two in Manchester. It's getting colder from the east. Now with its
colder weather. We are seeing a line of discontinuity some drizzly rain and some sweet two for the
Cotswolds. still moving Southwest was across South Wales and southwest England during the rest of
today. And for a time tonight as well. That was turning colder it is turning brighter, is turning
		

			much sunnier now in parts of Lincolnshire and East Anglia and Kent and this sunnier weather will
keep on moving into central parts this afternoon and other parts of the southeast as well. So it
just set us up for a frosty night tonight. temperatures down to minus four so hard for us to come in
quite a number of parts of the country, whereas further western North more drizzle to come in
southern and eastern Scotland. Northern Ireland hanging on to some mist and fog as well especially
for the first part of the afternoon. It's a weak sunshine amongst tonight that could be a little bit
of rain injuries are coming into western parts of the province and the Outer Hebrides here frost
		

			free, but otherwise from prosper other parts of Scotland tonight.
		

			live news live sports. This is five live
		

			and 33 five live news with Alex darbyshire. Iraq's Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz has denied
suggestions that Baghdad has missiles which breach UN resolutions. The chief weapons inspector Hans
Blix is expected to tell the Security Council tomorrow that Iraq's developed a weapon with the
potential to exceed the UN limit of 115 kilometers. The anti terrorist operation around the UK
airport is continuing in response to threats of a terrorist attack. The Home Secretary David
Blunkett will make a common statement on airport security this afternoon. The Foreign Secretary jack
straw will also make a statement on Iraq. Detectives investigating the murder of 19 year old Marsha
		

			McDonnell, who died from three massive blows to the head have confirmed that they're investigating a
similar incident that took place in January. A 17 year old girl suffered head injuries after a
suspected attack in the Strawberry Hill area of Southwest London. French media reports say a Spanish
man charged with killing the British school girl Caroline Dickinson seven years ago has admitted the
murder. 13 year old Caroline was staying at a youth hostel on a school trip in Brittany. When she
was raped and killed by an intruder she lay in bed and three students from an agricultural college
in Shropshire have been killed in a road crash. Three other men were badly injured in the accident
		

			which happened near the entrance to Harper Adams University College near Newport last night. Thank
you his David Croft with all the sports a flurry of runs as john Kelly mentioned at the end of their
innings from New Zealand and their World Cup match against the West Indies import Elizabeth Simon
man has all the details. They finished on 241 for seven from their 50 overs. That was a good effort
from New Zealand after being 147% in the 33rd. They got there thanks to a sensible innings from
wicketkeeper Brendon McCullum, who was 36 not eight. And so belligerents from Andre Adams who
finished 35 not and he got those runs and 24 balls with two sixes and a four. New Zealand struggled
		

			early on Stephen Fleming 25, Atari 13 Styris, five there was 66 or three then a good stablishing
asthalin can but then both went in quick succession as there was caught behind although don't you
hit it off Heinz and cans went too long off also of Heinz you finished with three for 35 so
Westerners need 242 to win. Very interesting. See how it works out England's cricket as should have
been in Harare today playing their opening World Cup match against Zimbabwe