Hamza Tzortzis – Why Did The Companions Convert To Islam- Insights On Proofs Of Prophethood

Hamza Tzortzis
AI: Summary ©
The importance of the Prophet's teachings in shaping the worldview is emphasized, including their connection to the sun and the use of smart and intellectual language in argumentation. The speakers also emphasize the need for achieving spiritual well-being for everyone, avoiding drinking alcohol, and the historical significance of the Quran in shaping meaning and language. The importance of practicing and understanding the process of writing to achieve writing goals is also emphasized. The conversation touches on the history and potential for the Qur Qala to be emcribed, the use of language and body language in relation to the movement, and the need for strategic thinking and long-term relationships with people to sustain them.
AI: Transcript ©
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Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Raheem, inna alhamdulillahi mursalatu

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wassalamu ala rasoolillahi assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa

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barakatuhu brothers and sisters and friends my name

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is Hamza Andreas Doudis and boy oh boy

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do we have an amazing hour plus together

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with our beautiful beloved brother Fareed Assalamu alaikum

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wa rahmatullah Wa alaikum assalamu alaikum wa barakatuhu

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Looking forward to it ya habibi May Allah

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bless you exactly for your time Now before

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you continue speaking I just want to quickly

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just introduce you and introduce the topic So

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our beloved brother Fareed is a student of

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knowledge from Bahrain with a keen interest in

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Quranic and Hadith studies as well as early

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Islamic history He has been actively involved in

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da'wah sharing Islam for over a decade

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Alhamdulillah may Allah preserve him and has been

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producing polemical content through video and written formats

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Fareed has also produced several published works in

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both the English and Arabic language including multiple

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classical manuscripts and so on and so forth

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Now I just want to mention some of

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his books because the books are quite amazing

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For example one book is The Necessity of

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Hadith We have another book which is called

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The Martyrdom of Al-Hussain and you have

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the book Why the Companions Converted to Islam

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which is what we're going to be talking

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about and I'm going to unpack that in

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a few moments But also he's an essayist

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and a researcher He's written various essays including

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the variants of the Uthmanic manuscripts the reliability

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of the reciters of the Quran and Hadith

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and so many different connected topics and not

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just that I want everyone to know and

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for this to be on the public record

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that brother Fareed has helped me as well

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Alhamdulillah when I was engaging with various things

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behind the scenes peer review and so on

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and so forth he helped me with references

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and research and you know I'm saying this

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not to throw dust in his face but

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not only Fareed but others like brother Bassam

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and others they do a lot of work

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behind the scenes which number one is indicative

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of ikhlas, sincerity but also indicative of a

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Allah-centric, akhira-centric mindset the dawah is

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not just about what you show there's a

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lot of hard work that happens behind the

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scenes concerning writing, researching and all of these

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other important things and that's why when you

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see some of these brothers you think they

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just have a hobby and they're just playing

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around no, some of these brothers are very

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serious they would even spend time and do

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hours and hours and days and days and

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weeks and weeks and months and months and

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years and years of work and it would

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be read by one or two people but

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they know the reward is with Allah subhanahu

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wa ta'ala and what Allah is going

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to give them no one can ever match

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so I just wanted to mention that on

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the public record so you know the brothers

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are actually connected behind the scenes alhamdulillah so

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what we're going to be talking about is

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Fareed's new book which is called Why Did

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The Companions Convert To Islam?

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The Historical Context Behind The Proofs Of Prophethood

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now, it's an amazing book, I actually read

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it this morning alhamdulillah after fajr I was

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writing lots of notes look at the notes,

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right, writing loads of notes and I was

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like gobsmacked with some parts I learnt a

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lot because history is not my kind of

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thing and I'm ashamed to say seerah is

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not my expertise either I learnt so much,

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alhamdulillah may Allah bless Fareed and bless his

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family because I know his family from parents

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and even closer family and you know obviously

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parents are close but you know his entire

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family support him in this because duaat, they

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need their family's support from the very beginning

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when they were born until now so may

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Allah bless him and his family and his

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loved ones now, I learnt a lot and

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Fareed uses four instances in the seerah of

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the Prophet ﷺ with regards to showcasing why

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sahaba as communities became Muslim and why they

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converted to Islam and the summary of this

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is basically they became Muslim for like four

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main reasons number one, there was something about

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the Qur'an the inimitability of the Qur

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'an the ijaz of the Qur'an, the

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miraculousness of the Qur'an also the content

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of the Qur'an, the recitation of the

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Qur'an so something about the Qur'an

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Qur'an was part of the da'wah

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focus of the Prophet ﷺ this is very

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important secondly, it was to do with Ahlul

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Kitab or specifically the Jewish tribe that was

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mentioning about a prophet that was going to

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come so there's a kind of Judo-Christian

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-Abrahamic link it's part of the story of

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monotheism yes, we know the Christian tradition contemporary

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Christian tradition contemporary Jewish tradition has been changed

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over time the Qur'an is the final

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proclamation from Allah a testament from Allah subhanahu

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wa ta'ala and so on and so

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forth but there is a kind of thread

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that we can find in previous traditions that

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link it to the Prophet ﷺ with regards

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to his coming to be a prophet and

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aspects of his characteristics and the other one

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was the truthfulness of the Prophet ﷺ or

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his ability to access things that a normal

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human being could not access and the other

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one was the Qur'anic prophecy which goes

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back to the Qur'an again and there

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are other things related to this but the

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four examples that Farid gave with regards to

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conversions at different times of the seerah of

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the Prophet ﷺ it's related to those elements

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so I want to discuss those and I

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want to discuss why this discussion is very

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important because Farid, before we came on board

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live, or actually it's not live but it's

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recorded it's going to go up in a

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few hours inshaAllah he basically asked me the

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question Hamza, assuming you didn't read the book

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but you invited me to engage in this

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podcast and I was like of course number

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one, I trust the brother we know him

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from his work he's very scrupulous especially with

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referencing and hadith I remember when he exposed

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a so-called academic academic's PhD not referencing

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very well and actually before I said it

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my PhD, I might send it to Farid

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just to double check all the references for

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me alhamdulillah so we know his work may

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Allah bless him and preserve him but also

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because the topic itself really fascinated me because

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if we want to give good da'wah

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we have to follow the methodology of the

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Prophet ﷺ and the Qur'anic methodology sometimes,

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and I've been also accused of this and

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I've been blameworthy concerning this that I've used

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too much abstract theological philosophical argumentation don't get

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me wrong that has its space if it's

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connected to the Qur'an it's connected to

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the sunnah and the general principle is you

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could use smart language and intellectual language and

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intellectual argument as long as you do not

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contradict the Qur'an and sunnah and you

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could find the premises of your argument in

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the Qur'an and the sunnah as per

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the understanding of the sahaba and our pious

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masters but notwithstanding sometimes we can deviate because

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we're on a journey and it's important for

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us to refocus the da'wah to stick

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to a methodology that's tried and tested that's

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been proven but also is rewardable because following

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the methodology for the sake of Allah is

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a rewardable thing to do and as Allah

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says the final outcome is with the righteous

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as long as you do what you have

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to do leave the results to Allah and

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then you'll find what you find on the

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day of judgment insha'Allah so I'm waffling

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too much first question not at all first

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question is my question no no no that's

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not fair you gave like you spoke for

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like 8 minutes straight it's my turn to

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ask the questions okay fair enough you're the

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guest the people want to know people want

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to know because yes we spoke about this

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of course before coming on and you didn't

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give me an answer yet and I've been

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waiting for quite a while for this and

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I'm sure the audience has been waiting for

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quite a while as well when you talk

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about your conversion to Islam you always speak

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about a gradual process but you never maybe

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you have and I haven't seen it but

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you usually don't speak about the specific points

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that give you those boosts of Iman in

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order for you to make that jump into

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Islam we want to hear it we want

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to hear it yeah so Alhamdulillah and this

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relates to your book actually because your book

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talks really about there's an indication of a

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gradual process of course right but also it

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really focuses on moments that were kind of

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transformative and life-changing for the Sahaba and

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you know sometimes we think it's you know

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that doesn't really happen in the modern world

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it actually does so I think it's a

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two-pronged there's two things to consider the

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first thing is I think for many converts

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and I can only speak for myself but

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generally speaking I've had some experience with converts

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there is a moment an aha moment or

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an awakening moment and at the same time

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before and after there's a gradual process as

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well right I'll give you an example so

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before I became Muslim I was convinced with

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the idea of God's existence and something being

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special about the Quran okay but that wasn't

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enough for me I didn't have the aha

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moment to become Muslim so what I did

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I used to read a kind of general

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book about Islam I think it was called

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Islam and Focus right how to pray and

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what does Islam say about values and so

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on and so forth and I learnt how

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to pray and I would pray and I

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would go to the masjid and I would

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pray Salah and that was a gradual process

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for me I would make wudu I learnt

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Surah Al-Fatiha and some basic surahs before

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I became Muslim and I was praying Salah

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I remember one of my brother's friends and

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Alhamdulillah he's a very close friend of mine

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right now beautiful brother Dr. Amir Islami and

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he comes from a Persian background he's a

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doctor and he runs legion's fitness or legion's

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gym a wrestling gym and he's Sunni Alhamdulillah

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and I remember him coming to my college

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which for American viewers that's not university it's

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the school before university and I wasn't Muslim

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then but he was giving some nasihah some

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advice to the Muslims and said you are

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closest to your lord in sajdah in prostration

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so I used to ask Allah for guidance

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in prostration when I was praying Salah right

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now so that was a gradual process and

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that was helping me in some way to

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taste Iman or to taste Islam in some

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way the aha moment was when it was

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October early October one of my friends you

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know stopped outside my house in his car

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he told me to come in and we

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used to have conversations outside my mom's house

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and he basically talked to me about death

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because he knew I was kind of intellectually

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convinced but there was something missing here and

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I don't really remember much on how he

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described death and it's inevitability but it really

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hit me and I'm not that kind of

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person right he talked to me about death

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at that time didn't really bother me right

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but it's just the way he spoke about

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with ikhlas and sincerity and so on and

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so forth and I remember going back to

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my mom's house I went into the bathroom

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and I sat in the bathroom and I

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think I texted him and I said you

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scared the beep out of me right and

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that kind of creates some kind of existential

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awakening and what I did is I decided

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on that Saturday I think it was October

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5th 2002 to take a taxi I think

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it was a taxi to Regents Park Mosque

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Central London Mosque and I took shahada after

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dhuhr and I think my first salah was

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dhuhr right so that was the aha moment

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and there was a gradual process before but

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that was the aha moment was death it

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made everything real it made all this kind

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of abstract intellectual stuff proofs of maybe Quran

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and proofs of God's existence it just made

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it me it made it part of my

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kind of spiritual DNA became part of my

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ruh my soul rather than some kind of

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abstract intellectual thing yeah and then after me

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becoming Muslim then that was a gradual process

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as well because obviously I'm not the same

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person I was 22 years ago hopefully I'm

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not right a lot has changed a lot

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has developed like my understanding of tawheed was

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extremely poor in the early days of Islam

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even for the first one or even two

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years because at that time you didn't have

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really communities with mashayikh it was very hard

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to access there wasn't social media and internet

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all of these things but notwithstanding that context

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it's been a gradual process of continued transformations

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I hope yeah and that's part of the

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kind of struggle of being a Muslim and

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trying to connect with Allah subhanahu wa ta

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'ala so to answer your question it's both

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as a convert as a someone who's born

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to a Muslim family the the the what

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do we what do we call us I

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don't even know what we call ourselves born

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Muslims I mean that's not the right term

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but those from Muslim backgrounds let's say want

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to know something else because you said that

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you accepted the Quran being something special being

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from God even before that before you sitting

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in the car and your friend talking to

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you we want to know what caused that

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to happen yeah well because it was it

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was for me it was a rational framework

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in actual fact many people won't believe this

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but it was to do with the linguistic

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inimitability of the Quranic discourse but in what

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way I heard a basic structure of an

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argument that if some of the historical premises

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were true then the conclusion was likely to

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be very true and what it was was

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about the Prophet ﷺ you know being a

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vehicle to revelation the eternal word of Allah

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subhanahu wa ta'ala and he came to

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the Arabs in the 7th century and he

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challenged their fundamental worldview right challenged their fundamental

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worldview that had real world implications and the

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Quran was the main miracle and the Quran

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was bold in Surah Al-Baqarah verse 23

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for example Allah said produce one chapter like

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it and the interesting thing is when you

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look at the history based on western and

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Muslim and eastern academics there is a consensus

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that the Arabs in the 7th century Arabia

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were the best at expressing themselves in the

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Arabic tongue like it was the peak of

00:15:26 --> 00:15:28

eloquence if you like it was like the

00:15:28 --> 00:15:32

Shakespearean period for the Arab world and you

00:15:32 --> 00:15:34

know I think Ibn Rashid he is a

00:15:34 --> 00:15:37

literary historian Arab literary historian he mentions that

00:15:37 --> 00:15:40

the Arabs would only celebrate two things when

00:15:40 --> 00:15:41

there was like a birth of a child

00:15:41 --> 00:15:44

or when a poet rose amongst them because

00:15:44 --> 00:15:46

being a poet it's not like being a

00:15:46 --> 00:15:47

poet today right you write a book and

00:15:47 --> 00:15:49

it gets read by one person or one

00:15:49 --> 00:15:50

and a half people right but being a

00:15:50 --> 00:15:52

poet at that time you know to be

00:15:52 --> 00:15:55

a master you would have to go out

00:15:55 --> 00:15:57

of the city and study for like 10

00:15:57 --> 00:16:00

years it's like equivalent of getting a PhD

00:16:00 --> 00:16:04

right 3 year degree 1 year master and

00:16:04 --> 00:16:07

then 3 year or 4 years PhD actually

00:16:07 --> 00:16:08

more than that it's like doing a post

00:16:08 --> 00:16:12

doctorate yeah because that would be around 10

00:16:12 --> 00:16:14

years so you know they were like the

00:16:14 --> 00:16:18

equivalent post doctorate researchers in poetry and eloquence

00:16:18 --> 00:16:20

and not only that it had a social

00:16:20 --> 00:16:25

and political yeah implication I was gonna say

00:16:25 --> 00:16:28

that even getting a PhD today is it's

00:16:28 --> 00:16:30

not that big of a deal back then

00:16:30 --> 00:16:32

if you were if you were a very

00:16:32 --> 00:16:36

influential poet you're not only ruining the lives

00:16:36 --> 00:16:39

of people or you have the ability to

00:16:39 --> 00:16:40

ruin the lives of people you have the

00:16:40 --> 00:16:43

ability to ruin tribes and well I mean

00:16:43 --> 00:16:48

one example is Benin Umair had to change

00:16:48 --> 00:16:51

their tribe name to Benin Umair because of

00:16:53 --> 00:16:54

who was it?

00:16:54 --> 00:16:58

Jarir because of Jarir's poetry so subhanallah imagine

00:16:58 --> 00:17:00

that you had to change your tribe's name

00:17:00 --> 00:17:04

because of poetry absolutely notice that Sheikh as

00:17:04 --> 00:17:07

you know poets could start wars and they

00:17:07 --> 00:17:09

could end wars practically yeah right you know

00:17:09 --> 00:17:11

it was like the media of today if

00:17:11 --> 00:17:13

you like yes which has which has huge

00:17:13 --> 00:17:17

power because media as you know can start

00:17:17 --> 00:17:21

wars and end wars right they can support

00:17:21 --> 00:17:23

genocides or help end genocides so this is

00:17:23 --> 00:17:26

the reality of the media so there are

00:17:26 --> 00:17:29

so many aspects that we can unpack here

00:17:29 --> 00:17:33

but the important thing is that the poets

00:17:33 --> 00:17:36

had that kind of status now that maqam

00:17:37 --> 00:17:40

so I just want to point out that

00:17:40 --> 00:17:42

you know I don't have you ever said

00:17:42 --> 00:17:44

like because your answer to that question about

00:17:44 --> 00:17:48

the inimitability of the Qur'an have you

00:17:48 --> 00:17:50

ever said that before that being one of

00:17:50 --> 00:17:54

the catalysts of your acceptance of Islam I've

00:17:54 --> 00:17:58

rarely very rarely because it was part of

00:17:58 --> 00:18:00

my kind of intellectual journey because I ended

00:18:00 --> 00:18:02

up writing an essay which is part of

00:18:02 --> 00:18:06

my book God's Testimony which uses the structure

00:18:06 --> 00:18:08

of the argument but unpacks it further right

00:18:08 --> 00:18:10

it's always been something that I've been connected

00:18:10 --> 00:18:14

to always always that's what we've all been

00:18:14 --> 00:18:17

waiting for we've been wanting you to say

00:18:17 --> 00:18:20

that but you know sometimes you've mentioned the

00:18:20 --> 00:18:22

gradual process and focus on that instead yeah

00:18:22 --> 00:18:26

yeah yeah for sure so from the Qur

00:18:26 --> 00:18:31

'anic perspective you know yeah so going back

00:18:31 --> 00:18:34

to the inimitability stuff so the poets at

00:18:34 --> 00:18:35

the time of the Prophet ﷺ were like

00:18:35 --> 00:18:38

had a huge status now.

00:18:38 --> 00:18:40

The Prophet ﷺ comes with the Qur'an

00:18:40 --> 00:18:43

and announces tawheed affirms the oneness of Allah

00:18:43 --> 00:18:46

ﷻ as you know ibadah means according to

00:18:46 --> 00:18:48

Ibn Kathir and Ibn Taymiyyah and others the

00:18:48 --> 00:18:50

peak of love and the peak of submission

00:18:50 --> 00:18:53

and acts that express that love and submission

00:18:53 --> 00:18:57

yeah so the Prophet ﷺ came to teach

00:18:57 --> 00:18:59

people tawheed who is Allah the oneness of

00:18:59 --> 00:19:01

Allah His names and attributes affirm His perfection

00:19:01 --> 00:19:04

affirm His oneness affirm that He is the

00:19:04 --> 00:19:08

King of all Kings affirm His unique oneness

00:19:08 --> 00:19:10

He is ahad uniquely one and so on

00:19:10 --> 00:19:12

and so forth that we must direct and

00:19:12 --> 00:19:14

single out all acts of worship the internal

00:19:14 --> 00:19:16

acts and the external acts of worship to

00:19:16 --> 00:19:20

Allah ﷻ and the Qur'an came challenges

00:19:20 --> 00:19:22

the whole worldview because as you know their

00:19:22 --> 00:19:24

worldview was based on polytheism and shirk and

00:19:24 --> 00:19:26

it was connected to economics and politics and

00:19:26 --> 00:19:28

trade and all of that stuff the Qur

00:19:28 --> 00:19:30

'an comes with the Prophet ﷺ and just

00:19:30 --> 00:19:33

undermines that just pulls the kind of worldview

00:19:33 --> 00:19:39

paradigm rug beneath them right and the Qur

00:19:39 --> 00:19:41

'an challenges them and says okay well just

00:19:41 --> 00:19:44

produce one chapter like it now for me

00:19:44 --> 00:19:46

I mean I don't want this to be

00:19:46 --> 00:19:48

related to this argument per se you know

00:19:48 --> 00:19:50

they could go to my website or go

00:19:50 --> 00:19:53

to my book and read the particular chapter

00:19:53 --> 00:19:56

that unpacks this argument but for me I

00:19:56 --> 00:20:02

just find it absolutely phenomenal because actually let

00:20:02 --> 00:20:03

me just quote you something that I've written

00:20:04 --> 00:20:08

a powerful argument that supports this assertion that

00:20:08 --> 00:20:10

the 7th century Arabs failed to imitate the

00:20:10 --> 00:20:14

Qur'an relates to the social political circumstances

00:20:14 --> 00:20:16

of the time central to the Qur'anic

00:20:16 --> 00:20:19

message was the condemnation of the immoral unjust

00:20:19 --> 00:20:21

and evil practices of the 7th century Meccan

00:20:21 --> 00:20:25

tribes these included the objectification of women unjust

00:20:25 --> 00:20:28

trade polytheism slavery holding of wealth infanticide and

00:20:28 --> 00:20:32

the shunning of orphans the Meccan leadership was

00:20:32 --> 00:20:34

being challenged by the Qur'anic message and

00:20:34 --> 00:20:36

this had the potential to undermine their leadership

00:20:36 --> 00:20:39

and economic success in order for Islam to

00:20:39 --> 00:20:42

stop spreading all that was needed for the

00:20:42 --> 00:20:46

Prophet's adversaries was to meet the linguistic and

00:20:46 --> 00:20:48

literary challenge of the Qur'an however the

00:20:48 --> 00:20:52

fact that Islam succeeded in its early fragile

00:20:52 --> 00:20:55

days in Mecca testifies to the fact that

00:20:55 --> 00:20:57

its primary audience was not able to meet

00:20:57 --> 00:21:00

the Qur'anic challenge no movement can succeed

00:21:00 --> 00:21:02

if a fundamental claim to its core is

00:21:02 --> 00:21:05

explicitly proven false the fact that the Meccan

00:21:05 --> 00:21:08

leadership had to resort to extreme campaigns such

00:21:08 --> 00:21:11

as warfare and torture to attempt to extinguish

00:21:11 --> 00:21:14

Islam demonstrates that the easy method of refuting

00:21:14 --> 00:21:17

Islam meeting the Qur'anic challenge failed so

00:21:17 --> 00:21:20

if the best Arabs were best placed to

00:21:20 --> 00:21:23

challenge the Qur'an failed then it can't

00:21:23 --> 00:21:25

come from a non-Arab and we know

00:21:25 --> 00:21:27

it can't come from the Prophet Muhammad for

00:21:27 --> 00:21:29

many reasons because he number one he was

00:21:29 --> 00:21:31

an Arab too and he was not known

00:21:31 --> 00:21:35

to actually study and cultivate any special rhetorical

00:21:35 --> 00:21:38

skills although we know he had concise speech

00:21:39 --> 00:21:42

and therefore the best inference to the best

00:21:42 --> 00:21:44

the inference the best explanation is that it

00:21:44 --> 00:21:46

came from the Divine couldn't come from an

00:21:46 --> 00:21:48

Arab couldn't come from a non-Arab couldn't

00:21:48 --> 00:21:50

come from the Prophet therefore it came from

00:21:50 --> 00:21:52

the Divine now there's much more kind of

00:21:52 --> 00:21:55

intellectual arguments and nuances and premises but we

00:21:55 --> 00:21:57

don't have to discuss that but that for

00:21:57 --> 00:21:59

me was extremely powerful I was like there's

00:21:59 --> 00:22:03

no other explanation and what's even more beautiful

00:22:03 --> 00:22:04

is when you start doing a little bit

00:22:04 --> 00:22:06

of Arabic and you start going into the

00:22:06 --> 00:22:09

Qur'an you're like oh my God this

00:22:09 --> 00:22:12

is something else which I'm very humbled that

00:22:12 --> 00:22:15

you actually cited one of my essays in

00:22:15 --> 00:22:17

the book which I didn't know about by

00:22:17 --> 00:22:19

the way I had no idea about so

00:22:19 --> 00:22:20

when I was going through it I was

00:22:20 --> 00:22:21

like oh my God he cited me and

00:22:21 --> 00:22:24

lo and behold we're actually talking about this

00:22:24 --> 00:22:27

very same topic but when you go through

00:22:27 --> 00:22:30

the Qur'an and you start exploring these

00:22:30 --> 00:22:32

things you're like wow there's something amazing here

00:22:33 --> 00:22:36

and the chapter that you cite it's quite

00:22:36 --> 00:22:37

interesting you say in the book that some

00:22:37 --> 00:22:39

people have tried to articulate this in the

00:22:39 --> 00:22:43

English language but it doesn't even touch what

00:22:43 --> 00:22:46

you can refer to understand in the Arabic

00:22:46 --> 00:22:49

language which I totally agree but take for

00:22:49 --> 00:22:52

example Surah Al-Kawthar and it's summarized in

00:22:52 --> 00:22:55

the first kind of paragraph or so in

00:22:55 --> 00:22:57

another article about Produce One Chapter Like It

00:22:57 --> 00:23:00

which is available on Sapiens Institute website when

00:23:00 --> 00:23:02

you go into the kind of empirical data

00:23:02 --> 00:23:04

now and you start assessing it you're like

00:23:04 --> 00:23:08

wow this is too much for example if

00:23:08 --> 00:23:09

you don't mind I'll just read the introduction

00:23:09 --> 00:23:14

here is a challenge take ten words in

00:23:14 --> 00:23:17

any language formulated into three lines or verses

00:23:17 --> 00:23:21

and add any preposition or linguistic particle you

00:23:21 --> 00:23:25

see fit produce at least 27 rhetorical devices

00:23:25 --> 00:23:28

and literary features at the same time ensure

00:23:28 --> 00:23:32

it has a unique structure is timelessly meaningful

00:23:32 --> 00:23:34

and relates to themes within a book that

00:23:34 --> 00:23:36

it is part of the size of which

00:23:36 --> 00:23:39

is over 70,000 words make sure four

00:23:39 --> 00:23:41

of its words are unique and never used

00:23:41 --> 00:23:43

again in the book ensure each line or

00:23:43 --> 00:23:46

verse ends with a rhyme created by words

00:23:46 --> 00:23:48

with the most optimal meanings make sure that

00:23:48 --> 00:23:51

these words are used only once in the

00:23:51 --> 00:23:54

three lines and not used anywhere else in

00:23:54 --> 00:23:57

the book ensure that the three lines concisely

00:23:57 --> 00:24:00

and eloquently semantically mirror the chapter before it

00:24:00 --> 00:24:03

and they must formulate a profound response to

00:24:03 --> 00:24:07

an unplanned set of circumstances you must use

00:24:07 --> 00:24:10

ten letters in each line and ten letters

00:24:10 --> 00:24:13

only once in the entire three lines throughout

00:24:13 --> 00:24:15

the whole piece make sure you produce a

00:24:15 --> 00:24:19

semantically orientated rhythm without sacrificing any meaning do

00:24:19 --> 00:24:22

all of the above publicly in one attempt

00:24:22 --> 00:24:25

without revision or amendment in absence of any

00:24:25 --> 00:24:28

formal training in eloquence and rhetoric impossible as

00:24:28 --> 00:24:31

the above may seem this is exactly what

00:24:31 --> 00:24:33

the Quran achieved in its shortest chapter Al

00:24:33 --> 00:24:36

-Kawthar the abundance and it was expressed through

00:24:36 --> 00:24:38

the Prophet who was not known to have

00:24:38 --> 00:24:42

composed any poetry nor cultivated any special rhetorical

00:24:42 --> 00:24:44

gifts and the rest of the essay unpacks

00:24:44 --> 00:24:47

the kind of quasi academic nature of each

00:24:47 --> 00:24:49

point that was mentioned in the introduction now

00:24:49 --> 00:24:51

the reason I've combined these two things together

00:24:51 --> 00:24:54

because I still feel even if someone is

00:24:54 --> 00:24:58

not best equipped to make the assessment about

00:24:58 --> 00:24:59

the Quran because they don't have the tools

00:24:59 --> 00:25:01

and even when you know Arabic you still

00:25:01 --> 00:25:02

won't have the tools anyway because it's a

00:25:02 --> 00:25:06

very specialized system if you like like Balara

00:25:06 --> 00:25:10

eloquence and rhetoric is a very specialized subset

00:25:10 --> 00:25:13

of classical Arabic grammar and you have to

00:25:13 --> 00:25:15

like master it for 10 years plus you

00:25:15 --> 00:25:17

may be able to taste it with some

00:25:17 --> 00:25:19

Arabic but the point is even if you

00:25:19 --> 00:25:22

don't know the language at all these two

00:25:22 --> 00:25:24

things combining these two things should be enough

00:25:24 --> 00:25:27

to create an aha moment especially the first

00:25:27 --> 00:25:29

one which is about could it be from

00:25:29 --> 00:25:31

an Arab could it be from a non

00:25:31 --> 00:25:33

-Arab could it be from the Prophet and

00:25:33 --> 00:25:34

when you look at all the kind of

00:25:34 --> 00:25:38

historical evidences without needing to know any letter

00:25:38 --> 00:25:39

of the Arabic language that's why I wrote

00:25:39 --> 00:25:40

the essay so you don't have to know

00:25:40 --> 00:25:44

anything about Arabic just based on an inference

00:25:44 --> 00:25:47

of the best explanation and the testimonial data

00:25:47 --> 00:25:48

that we have which is a valid source

00:25:48 --> 00:25:52

of knowledge and it's indispensable the epistemology of

00:25:52 --> 00:25:54

testimony even in Eastern and Western scholarship but

00:25:54 --> 00:25:56

we don't have discussed that right now but

00:25:56 --> 00:25:58

the point is when you access that stuff

00:25:58 --> 00:26:00

and I'll put the links in in the

00:26:00 --> 00:26:04

description it could still be enough so anyway

00:26:04 --> 00:26:06

enough of me ya shaykh enough of me

00:26:06 --> 00:26:08

I have so many I have eight questions

00:26:08 --> 00:26:10

for you subhanallah and I want you to

00:26:10 --> 00:26:11

talk now no more talking from me because

00:26:11 --> 00:26:14

sometimes I get complaints Hamza you interrupt a

00:26:14 --> 00:26:16

lot we're enjoying it we're enjoying it yes

00:26:16 --> 00:26:20

because it's the Greek in me coming out

00:26:20 --> 00:26:22

so bismillah habibi so I want to know

00:26:22 --> 00:26:27

the journey concerning this book so why did

00:26:27 --> 00:26:30

you write the book what was the motivation

00:26:31 --> 00:26:34

how did you start your research and talk

00:26:34 --> 00:26:36

to me about the kind of backdrop background

00:26:36 --> 00:26:39

and the reasons for writing this book I've

00:26:39 --> 00:26:41

mentioned some of this in the introduction and

00:26:41 --> 00:26:43

much of it has to do with just

00:26:43 --> 00:26:45

me being interested in why people believe in

00:26:45 --> 00:26:47

what they believe in and I was just

00:26:47 --> 00:26:50

speaking to Bassem about this recently I hope

00:26:50 --> 00:26:52

his friend doesn't watch this but he's got

00:26:52 --> 00:26:56

a friend who believes that a particular wife

00:26:56 --> 00:27:00

of a former president is a man you

00:27:00 --> 00:27:04

can imagine who that may be about and

00:27:04 --> 00:27:08

I was like I was shocked that he

00:27:08 --> 00:27:09

would be saying this and he was like

00:27:09 --> 00:27:12

saying it with a completely straight face and

00:27:12 --> 00:27:15

I was like that's like the craziest conspiracy

00:27:15 --> 00:27:18

theory like why would that even occur and

00:27:18 --> 00:27:22

what's up with this huge cover-up that's

00:27:22 --> 00:27:23

insane why would you even believe this so

00:27:23 --> 00:27:26

I'm very interested in why people believe in

00:27:26 --> 00:27:30

what they believe in and naturally I'm someone

00:27:30 --> 00:27:37

who's very interested in my religion and I'm

00:27:37 --> 00:27:39

someone who's very interested in why people believe

00:27:39 --> 00:27:44

in Islam and there are subhanallah many people

00:27:44 --> 00:27:48

who are born into Muslim backgrounds are very

00:27:48 --> 00:27:51

curious because you see it's not too much

00:27:51 --> 00:27:52

of a choice for many Muslims you're just

00:27:52 --> 00:27:55

born with it and it's your community and

00:27:55 --> 00:27:57

you grow up with it and you go

00:27:57 --> 00:28:01

to the masjid and I'm a Muslim there's

00:28:01 --> 00:28:03

for a lot of people there's no active

00:28:03 --> 00:28:06

choice converting to Islam choosing Islam is not

00:28:06 --> 00:28:08

an active choice it doesn't really feel like

00:28:08 --> 00:28:10

one it's just something that you're used to

00:28:10 --> 00:28:12

to a degree at least even though I

00:28:12 --> 00:28:14

mean definitely yes definitely is a choice at

00:28:14 --> 00:28:16

the end of the day you're still choosing

00:28:16 --> 00:28:17

to go to the mosque you're still choosing

00:28:17 --> 00:28:20

to practice what you've been taught without a

00:28:20 --> 00:28:27

doubt but we're very curious why people convert

00:28:27 --> 00:28:30

to Islam and that's why I had to

00:28:30 --> 00:28:32

ask was it just a gradual process or

00:28:32 --> 00:28:36

was there something more that caught and for

00:28:36 --> 00:28:40

answering it was very satisfactory answer and that's

00:28:40 --> 00:28:45

what people are looking for yeah when people

00:28:45 --> 00:28:48

are watching your story they want you to

00:28:48 --> 00:28:49

say that they're more interested in that than

00:28:49 --> 00:28:51

the aha moment of your friend telling you

00:28:51 --> 00:28:54

about that even though that part about death

00:28:54 --> 00:28:56

touched you the most it made it real

00:28:56 --> 00:28:59

for you but the Muslim or the one

00:28:59 --> 00:29:01

from the Muslim background he wants to know

00:29:01 --> 00:29:05

because the reality is yeah Mustafa a lot

00:29:05 --> 00:29:08

of Muslims they get that boost of faith

00:29:08 --> 00:29:13

from the choices of others especially someone who's

00:29:14 --> 00:29:17

an intellectual who's quite articulate like yourself they

00:29:17 --> 00:29:19

want to hear it from them this guy

00:29:19 --> 00:29:21

he made the right choice but I want

00:29:21 --> 00:29:22

to know why he made the right choice

00:29:22 --> 00:29:24

how did he get there so people want

00:29:24 --> 00:29:27

that now a lot of the videos that

00:29:27 --> 00:29:30

I've seen when I discovered YouTube and I

00:29:30 --> 00:29:34

discovered conversion stories a lot of them very

00:29:34 --> 00:29:37

very spiritual very very spiritual I had a

00:29:37 --> 00:29:39

dream and I had a dream and in

00:29:39 --> 00:29:42

that dream a man said to me your

00:29:42 --> 00:29:49

name is Bilal Abdul Alim and Subhanallah I

00:29:49 --> 00:29:51

don't know if you've even heard of Dr.

00:29:51 --> 00:29:53

Bilal Abdul Alim but that's literally what happened

00:29:53 --> 00:29:54

to him and he drove I don't know

00:29:54 --> 00:29:57

from like Texas to Washington DC and said

00:29:57 --> 00:29:59

for some reason he drove instead of taking

00:29:59 --> 00:30:03

a plane in any case he passed away

00:30:03 --> 00:30:06

a few years ago many many spiritual stories

00:30:06 --> 00:30:10

but when it comes to intellectual reasons for

00:30:10 --> 00:30:15

conversion at least when I started watching YouTube

00:30:15 --> 00:30:18

videos and conversion stories there weren't too many

00:30:18 --> 00:30:21

and there weren't too many that were very

00:30:21 --> 00:30:27

satisfying and naturally I was curious about the

00:30:27 --> 00:30:30

Sahaba and of course Alhamdulillah in like books

00:30:30 --> 00:30:34

of Seerah Seerah Ibn Isha'a you find

00:30:34 --> 00:30:37

a chapter or several chapters about the conversion

00:30:37 --> 00:30:41

of specific companions but that's like what 10

00:30:41 --> 00:30:46

or 20 out of 100,000 and I

00:30:46 --> 00:30:49

want to know why the community is converted

00:30:49 --> 00:30:51

I want to know why Al-Aws and

00:30:51 --> 00:30:54

Al-Khazraj converted and what caused those two

00:30:54 --> 00:30:57

major tribes to convert to Islam and you

00:30:57 --> 00:30:59

know when you look for something it comes

00:30:59 --> 00:31:01

to you easily as opposed to I mean

00:31:01 --> 00:31:04

I'm sure there's a lot of people that

00:31:04 --> 00:31:10

have read these books but they missed out

00:31:10 --> 00:31:11

on these things they missed out on these

00:31:11 --> 00:31:15

reports in which you have a companion saying

00:31:15 --> 00:31:16

oh by the way that's why we all

00:31:16 --> 00:31:19

converted to Islam and it's just a line

00:31:19 --> 00:31:22

right there and okay you shrug it off

00:31:22 --> 00:31:23

but when you're looking for it you realize

00:31:23 --> 00:31:26

that's quite an amazing thing that's a major

00:31:26 --> 00:31:28

thing they just gave you the reason of

00:31:28 --> 00:31:32

why you have this huge community of polytheists

00:31:32 --> 00:31:36

convert to Islam so that was excuse me

00:31:36 --> 00:31:39

it's a bit of a lengthy answer that

00:31:39 --> 00:31:41

was one and that was one reason the

00:31:41 --> 00:31:43

other reason is I was really curious about

00:31:43 --> 00:31:47

the first converts to Islam as opposed to

00:31:47 --> 00:31:51

modern converts because modern converts they may be

00:31:51 --> 00:31:55

influenced by something that doesn't represent the religion

00:31:55 --> 00:31:59

correctly the first generation of converts they were

00:31:59 --> 00:32:02

there they saw something they met the person

00:32:02 --> 00:32:04

that's claiming to be a prophet whether it's

00:32:04 --> 00:32:06

a false prophet or a true prophet and

00:32:06 --> 00:32:09

when I looked into the history of Joseph

00:32:09 --> 00:32:13

Smith by the way I strongly recommend you

00:32:13 --> 00:32:15

should if you haven't checked it out it's

00:32:15 --> 00:32:18

Rough Stone Rolling I believe is the book

00:32:18 --> 00:32:24

lovely lovely amazing how those people made that

00:32:24 --> 00:32:27

decision and the story of Joseph Smith you

00:32:27 --> 00:32:31

learn more about people and why they accept

00:32:31 --> 00:32:34

things from that book and many others in

00:32:34 --> 00:32:40

any case he one of the main duaat

00:32:40 --> 00:32:43

one of the main missionaries says that he

00:32:43 --> 00:32:45

converted just because he wanted to see where

00:32:45 --> 00:32:48

this religion would go where it would take

00:32:48 --> 00:32:50

him he wasn't even sure if it was

00:32:50 --> 00:32:51

true he was this guy was one of

00:32:51 --> 00:32:54

the major duaat like imagine Musab bin Umair

00:32:54 --> 00:32:57

going to Medina and converting all of these

00:32:57 --> 00:32:59

people and he wasn't sure like that would

00:32:59 --> 00:33:03

be quite awkward so I took it upon

00:33:03 --> 00:33:07

myself to look further into the sahaba themselves

00:33:07 --> 00:33:10

and why they converted I was happy to

00:33:10 --> 00:33:16

see some very convincing intellectual reasons and I

00:33:16 --> 00:33:21

was quite satisfied excellent well this links to

00:33:21 --> 00:33:23

another very important point because obviously you're in

00:33:23 --> 00:33:27

the kind of sharing and defending islam domain

00:33:27 --> 00:33:29

you're involved in the dua alhamdulillah may Allah

00:33:29 --> 00:33:33

preserve you and you know and obviously maybe

00:33:33 --> 00:33:36

you didn't have this initial intention but looking

00:33:36 --> 00:33:38

at your book now and me reading your

00:33:38 --> 00:33:39

book as someone who is involved in this

00:33:39 --> 00:33:45

domain what is the significance of why the

00:33:45 --> 00:33:49

companions converted to islam for contemporary dawah so

00:33:49 --> 00:33:53

how can we use the early converts of

00:33:53 --> 00:33:57

islam the reasons for conversion the interactions between

00:33:57 --> 00:33:59

the groups and the tribes and the prophet

00:33:59 --> 00:34:05

and contemporary dawah especially considering my work your

00:34:05 --> 00:34:07

work so what do you think the significance

00:34:07 --> 00:34:11

is here i'd say two primary reasons the

00:34:11 --> 00:34:13

first reason would be use the actual arguments

00:34:13 --> 00:34:16

the arguments are really good arguments they're quite

00:34:16 --> 00:34:20

convincing and you can just like regurgitate some

00:34:20 --> 00:34:22

of the stuff that's in there and i

00:34:22 --> 00:34:27

have and they were very beneficial even with

00:34:27 --> 00:34:31

experts in the field and i've spoken to

00:34:31 --> 00:34:35

someone who is really well versed in the

00:34:35 --> 00:34:40

roman byzantium uh the byzantium persian war and

00:34:40 --> 00:34:43

the guy had to concede and say hey

00:34:43 --> 00:34:47

maybe it was just a coincidence so i

00:34:47 --> 00:34:49

mean the guy didn't like say the shahadah

00:34:49 --> 00:34:52

at the specific moment that he heard the

00:34:52 --> 00:34:55

argument but when when i find someone coping

00:34:55 --> 00:34:57

and saying hey maybe it was just a

00:34:57 --> 00:35:02

coincidence to me that's uh that clearly shows

00:35:02 --> 00:35:04

that they don't have an answer to the

00:35:04 --> 00:35:07

argument that's one part of it the other

00:35:07 --> 00:35:08

the other part of it has to do

00:35:08 --> 00:35:13

with um looking at when we're talking about

00:35:13 --> 00:35:18

the significance of this sort of material it

00:35:18 --> 00:35:20

it tells me that there is so much

00:35:20 --> 00:35:23

more that can be done in regards to

00:35:23 --> 00:35:27

how we present islam and how we get

00:35:27 --> 00:35:30

the message across and i don't really recall

00:35:30 --> 00:35:35

other examples of using the sahabah and sincerity

00:35:35 --> 00:35:38

of the sahabah as proof for islam um

00:35:38 --> 00:35:43

al-qadhi um abdul jabbar al-mu'tazili has

00:35:43 --> 00:35:47

this wonderful book called where he argues for

00:35:47 --> 00:35:51

islam rationally doesn't use hadith they're not too

00:35:51 --> 00:35:54

big on hadith right um and one of

00:35:54 --> 00:35:58

his like first arguments is the sahabah were

00:35:58 --> 00:36:02

very sincere as simple as that there's very

00:36:02 --> 00:36:04

sincere people and to give you examples of

00:36:04 --> 00:36:06

their sincerity of them being like people of

00:36:06 --> 00:36:09

asceticism and people that spend a lot of

00:36:09 --> 00:36:13

time in prayer and people of piety and

00:36:13 --> 00:36:17

that's a very good um well it's not

00:36:17 --> 00:36:19

a direct let's say this it's not a

00:36:19 --> 00:36:23

direct proof for religion you can have sincere

00:36:23 --> 00:36:27

followers but it's a good indirect proof let's

00:36:27 --> 00:36:30

say that but and then of course you

00:36:30 --> 00:36:32

connect it to the actual reasons for their

00:36:32 --> 00:36:34

conversion what caused them to be like this

00:36:34 --> 00:36:37

and i touch upon this in the book

00:36:37 --> 00:36:40

itself what causes abu dhab and his tribe

00:36:40 --> 00:36:45

of bandits and raiders to convert to islam

00:36:45 --> 00:36:49

what changes them um it's got to be

00:36:49 --> 00:36:54

something so i believe that's one of the

00:36:54 --> 00:36:57

significant things that we can get out of

00:36:57 --> 00:37:00

this it's using indirect proofs for islam doesn't

00:37:00 --> 00:37:02

always have to be miracles doesn't always have

00:37:02 --> 00:37:04

to be prophecies directly it can simply be

00:37:04 --> 00:37:11

the acceptance of the um first generation of

00:37:11 --> 00:37:13

muslims that being used as an indirect proof

00:37:13 --> 00:37:15

and then of course the next question that

00:37:15 --> 00:37:18

would be asked is if these people were

00:37:18 --> 00:37:21

sincere then maybe it's worth looking into what

00:37:21 --> 00:37:24

were their reasons and of course i tried

00:37:24 --> 00:37:28

to provide really bad reasons i mean real

00:37:28 --> 00:37:31

reasons like you have kuffar that say things

00:37:31 --> 00:37:34

like oh they converted because they were promised

00:37:34 --> 00:37:44

women in heaven you

00:37:44 --> 00:37:47

don't believe in heaven you don't believe in

00:37:47 --> 00:37:49

life after death someone says you're going to

00:37:49 --> 00:37:50

get women oh okay i'm going to go

00:37:50 --> 00:37:53

to war then that doesn't make sense so

00:37:53 --> 00:37:55

yeah that was very interesting that was in

00:37:55 --> 00:38:00

your afterward when you discuss the reasons that

00:38:00 --> 00:38:03

basically non reasons the reasons that the sahaba

00:38:05 --> 00:38:08

what's actually the title of i actually wrote

00:38:08 --> 00:38:10

it down here to be honest you said

00:38:11 --> 00:38:14

reasons that didn't cause the companions to accept

00:38:14 --> 00:38:17

islam right and one of them you include

00:38:17 --> 00:38:19

is the idea of the existence of god

00:38:19 --> 00:38:22

was comforting right but the funny thing is

00:38:22 --> 00:38:24

the quran affirms that they believed in allah

00:38:24 --> 00:38:26

creator of the heavens and the earth anyway

00:38:26 --> 00:38:31

so you know what's new here right so

00:38:31 --> 00:38:33

you you list all those reasons which we're

00:38:33 --> 00:38:34

going to come to in a few moments

00:38:35 --> 00:38:39

or non reasons rather um now for me

00:38:39 --> 00:38:42

i think there's an important theological backdrop here

00:38:42 --> 00:38:47

as well because what it does is it

00:38:47 --> 00:38:52

allows us to be less what's the word

00:38:52 --> 00:38:56

to use you know to use less abstract

00:38:56 --> 00:38:58

rational arguments because when you're using some of

00:38:58 --> 00:39:01

the arguments that have been presented in the

00:39:01 --> 00:39:03

book and you use the stories of the

00:39:03 --> 00:39:08

sahaba it's kind of more conversational yeah it's

00:39:08 --> 00:39:13

less what you call abstract and philosophical that

00:39:13 --> 00:39:15

you have to set a whole bunch of

00:39:15 --> 00:39:19

premises you have to show how they guarantee

00:39:19 --> 00:39:22

the truth of the conclusion or if it's

00:39:22 --> 00:39:25

not a deductive argument how it's a strong

00:39:25 --> 00:39:29

inference you know are your assumptions you know

00:39:29 --> 00:39:31

true have you got good reasons to believe

00:39:31 --> 00:39:33

in the assumptions behind the argument in the

00:39:33 --> 00:39:36

first place is there any missing information that

00:39:36 --> 00:39:39

you know you have deliberately omitted you have

00:39:39 --> 00:39:43

all this analysis analytical philosophy right and from

00:39:43 --> 00:39:46

experience when you do that it's just ego

00:39:46 --> 00:39:48

discussions anyway now there is a time and

00:39:48 --> 00:39:52

space for it of course but what you

00:39:52 --> 00:39:54

present allows a conversation to happen what you

00:39:54 --> 00:39:59

present allows you to use akhlaaq and adab

00:39:59 --> 00:40:05

your character your goodness your hilm your forbearance

00:40:05 --> 00:40:08

your rahmah your mercy your hikmah your wisdom

00:40:08 --> 00:40:11

your ihsan your goodness and excellence which are

00:40:11 --> 00:40:16

all important characteristics and prophetic characteristics and when

00:40:16 --> 00:40:18

you use them in the dawah with these

00:40:18 --> 00:40:20

type of arguments and even stories of sahaba

00:40:20 --> 00:40:23

their sincerity and why they became muslim and

00:40:23 --> 00:40:26

using those arguments as well in a universal

00:40:26 --> 00:40:30

way it's easier for a natural organic conversation

00:40:30 --> 00:40:32

and the reason I think that's important is

00:40:32 --> 00:40:34

because the theological backdrop and this is the

00:40:34 --> 00:40:38

main point is that every human being is

00:40:38 --> 00:40:40

born in a state of fitrah we know

00:40:40 --> 00:40:42

this from quran 30 verse 30 when Allah

00:40:42 --> 00:40:45

says adhere to the natural way the fitrah

00:40:45 --> 00:40:48

of Allah created all human beings also we

00:40:48 --> 00:40:49

have the hadith in sahih muslim the prophet

00:40:49 --> 00:40:51

said that every child is born in a

00:40:51 --> 00:40:55

state of fitrah and then the hadith continues

00:40:55 --> 00:40:57

and says it's because of parenting that they

00:40:57 --> 00:40:59

become a median a christian or a jew

00:41:01 --> 00:41:02

and the fitrah has been discussed we don't

00:41:02 --> 00:41:05

have to go into the theological opinions but

00:41:05 --> 00:41:08

generally speaking the fitrah is like a vehicle

00:41:08 --> 00:41:11

it's like a car and it's driving towards

00:41:11 --> 00:41:14

destination haq if all the other variables are

00:41:14 --> 00:41:17

in place but if the wind screen of

00:41:17 --> 00:41:28

the

00:41:28 --> 00:41:33

sahaba sincerity using the arguments in your book

00:41:33 --> 00:41:37

or any other good sound argument in a

00:41:37 --> 00:41:39

conversational way when you use those they act

00:41:39 --> 00:41:43

as means to uncloud the fitrah or to

00:41:43 --> 00:41:47

demystify the vehicle of the fitrah in order

00:41:47 --> 00:41:50

for it to continue its journey and this

00:41:50 --> 00:41:52

is important because you would have some people

00:41:52 --> 00:41:55

who would listen to the same arguments and

00:41:55 --> 00:41:57

may agree intellectually to the same arguments but

00:41:57 --> 00:41:59

they would never become Muslim because there is

00:41:59 --> 00:42:03

something else that's clouding their fitrah or giving

00:42:03 --> 00:42:05

that mist to the wind screen which could

00:42:05 --> 00:42:09

be arrogance and so on and so forth

00:42:09 --> 00:42:12

and this is interesting because when you look

00:42:12 --> 00:42:15

at how people convert for the past over

00:42:15 --> 00:42:19

1400 years people have different reasons some of

00:42:19 --> 00:42:24

them you could unpack and scrutinize intellectually others

00:42:24 --> 00:42:28

are great but the point here is that

00:42:28 --> 00:42:31

not everyone's conversion story is the same and

00:42:31 --> 00:42:35

not only that they may have heard an

00:42:35 --> 00:42:38

argument that someone else may have converted for

00:42:38 --> 00:42:42

for the same but when they heard it

00:42:42 --> 00:42:44

it wasn't enough for them they needed something

00:42:44 --> 00:42:48

else and this is quite interesting especially when

00:42:48 --> 00:42:50

you mention that many people's conversion stories are

00:42:50 --> 00:42:53

either spiritual sometimes intellectual but many of them

00:42:53 --> 00:42:56

are spiritual this shows to me that there

00:42:56 --> 00:42:59

are different ways to uncloud the fitra if

00:42:59 --> 00:43:02

you like or demystify the windscreen of the

00:43:02 --> 00:43:04

vehicle of the fitra so you could reach

00:43:04 --> 00:43:07

the truth and that's why I'm a strong

00:43:07 --> 00:43:09

believer when it comes to one to one

00:43:09 --> 00:43:13

da'wah you have to individualize the person

00:43:13 --> 00:43:15

and I think that's the sunnah of the

00:43:15 --> 00:43:18

Prophet which is to individualize the person who

00:43:18 --> 00:43:21

are they what are their contexts and that's

00:43:21 --> 00:43:23

why it's important to understand that we have

00:43:23 --> 00:43:28

to adopt prophetic characteristics like emotional intelligence hilm

00:43:28 --> 00:43:33

forbearance and also hikmah ya habibi hikmah is

00:43:33 --> 00:43:36

a neglected practice in the da'wah wallahi

00:43:36 --> 00:43:39

I could talk about this and I have

00:43:39 --> 00:43:41

a rant on this right because Allah doesn't

00:43:41 --> 00:43:46

necessarily say give da'wah with hilm obviously

00:43:46 --> 00:43:49

it's assumed because hikmah is applied to hilm

00:43:49 --> 00:43:52

and Allah says in Surah Yusuf about basira

00:43:52 --> 00:43:55

insight but there's no direct like you know

00:43:55 --> 00:43:58

give da'wah just with hilm the famous

00:43:58 --> 00:44:03

ayah in chapter 16 verse 125 call to

00:44:03 --> 00:44:06

the sabil of your lord with what hikmah

00:44:06 --> 00:44:09

now for me it's very interesting when we

00:44:09 --> 00:44:10

say hikmah you have the general you know

00:44:10 --> 00:44:13

students of knowledge and public facing they say

00:44:13 --> 00:44:15

oh this means Quran and sunnah it means

00:44:15 --> 00:44:18

sunnah ok but what does that mean in

00:44:18 --> 00:44:20

the context of hikmah and I want to

00:44:20 --> 00:44:21

share something with you that I want you

00:44:21 --> 00:44:23

to try and think about I talk about

00:44:23 --> 00:44:28

this a lot actually hikmah and we know

00:44:28 --> 00:44:29

hikmah and ilmah are distinct and we see

00:44:29 --> 00:44:31

this in Surah Yusuf when Allah subhanahu wa

00:44:31 --> 00:44:33

ta'ala says and we granted him wise

00:44:33 --> 00:44:35

judgement and ilm and this is how we

00:44:35 --> 00:44:37

reward the doers of good so Allah is

00:44:37 --> 00:44:40

making a distinction between wise judgement and ilm

00:44:40 --> 00:44:44

and virtue it's connected to virtue ok hikmah

00:44:44 --> 00:44:46

if you look at the seerah of the

00:44:46 --> 00:44:47

Prophet ﷺ and you look at the sunnah

00:44:47 --> 00:44:49

you look at the ahadith concerning his interaction

00:44:49 --> 00:44:52

with different people for example how he approached

00:44:52 --> 00:44:54

the young man who said allow me to

00:44:54 --> 00:44:57

commit zina fornication you will see a pattern

00:44:58 --> 00:45:00

now I'm not trying to force a pattern

00:45:00 --> 00:45:01

on the sunnah here but I think you

00:45:01 --> 00:45:03

can find it in every aspect of hikmah

00:45:03 --> 00:45:06

in the sunnah right and I'm willing to

00:45:06 --> 00:45:11

be proven wrong hikmah is that you have

00:45:11 --> 00:45:14

an Allah pleasing goal the goal has to

00:45:14 --> 00:45:18

be pleasing to Allah you achieve that goal

00:45:18 --> 00:45:25

in a particular context and you access ilm

00:45:25 --> 00:45:27

whether it's from scholars students of knowledge or

00:45:27 --> 00:45:29

from yourself through the Qur'an and sunnah

00:45:29 --> 00:45:32

you access ilm to apply in that context

00:45:32 --> 00:45:36

to achieve the goal which means you need

00:45:36 --> 00:45:39

ilm you need a sound aql to understand

00:45:39 --> 00:45:42

the context and you need ilm to understand

00:45:42 --> 00:45:43

what the Allah pleasing goal is and you

00:45:43 --> 00:45:46

need ikhlas at the same time because if

00:45:46 --> 00:45:48

you don't have ikhlas you don't want an

00:45:48 --> 00:45:52

Allah pleasing goal now let's apply to the

00:45:52 --> 00:45:53

narration I just mentioned about the young man

00:45:53 --> 00:45:55

who came to Prophet ﷺ and said allow

00:45:55 --> 00:45:59

me to commit zina if it was just

00:45:59 --> 00:46:02

ilm based it would have been enough for

00:46:02 --> 00:46:05

the Prophet ﷺ to say to him in

00:46:05 --> 00:46:10

his particular context this is completely haram you

00:46:10 --> 00:46:13

do this this is the consequence no problem

00:46:13 --> 00:46:15

and many du'at are like that by

00:46:15 --> 00:46:17

the way and they think they're doing dawah

00:46:18 --> 00:46:22

in my view they're not sorry to say

00:46:22 --> 00:46:26

so but the Prophet ﷺ we can say

00:46:26 --> 00:46:30

very carefully by virtue of understanding his role

00:46:30 --> 00:46:32

as a Prophet that he is the best

00:46:32 --> 00:46:34

human being to have walked this planet he

00:46:34 --> 00:46:36

is the best of all creation that he

00:46:36 --> 00:46:39

wanted the best for this young man and

00:46:39 --> 00:46:40

this is what true love is by the

00:46:40 --> 00:46:42

way being committed to the spiritual well-being

00:46:42 --> 00:46:44

of other people even kuffar talk about this

00:46:44 --> 00:46:46

not that we have to reference them but

00:46:46 --> 00:46:47

interestingly M.

00:46:47 --> 00:46:49

Scott Peck he writes in his book A

00:46:49 --> 00:46:53

Road Less Travelled that love is being committed

00:46:53 --> 00:46:54

to the spiritual well-being of other people

00:46:54 --> 00:46:56

and the Prophet ﷺ was committed to the

00:46:56 --> 00:46:59

spiritual well-being of people is a rahmah

00:46:59 --> 00:47:01

to the world and also the sahaba were

00:47:01 --> 00:47:02

committed to the spiritual well-being of each

00:47:02 --> 00:47:04

other as well like as you know when

00:47:04 --> 00:47:07

the prohibition of alcohol came they all spat

00:47:07 --> 00:47:09

the alcohol out if they were drinking and

00:47:09 --> 00:47:11

they threw the alcohol down the streets and

00:47:11 --> 00:47:12

one sahabi was in the mosque and he

00:47:12 --> 00:47:15

said what about the sahaba our brothers who

00:47:15 --> 00:47:17

recently passed away and there's alcohol in their

00:47:17 --> 00:47:20

stomachs wallahi they were concerned about the akhira

00:47:20 --> 00:47:22

of their brothers they were concerned about the

00:47:22 --> 00:47:24

spiritual well-being and we know it didn't

00:47:24 --> 00:47:26

apply because the ruling came after but look

00:47:26 --> 00:47:28

at the insight of the sahaba true love

00:47:29 --> 00:47:31

wallahi we need to have that love ya

00:47:31 --> 00:47:33

akhi amongst the brothers especially the dua but

00:47:33 --> 00:47:35

today we're like brands and we're this and

00:47:35 --> 00:47:39

we're that competing you know if someone fails

00:47:39 --> 00:47:41

doesn't get as many likes or shares we

00:47:41 --> 00:47:43

get really happy you know all that nonsense

00:47:43 --> 00:47:45

anyway put that aside the person was very

00:47:45 --> 00:47:48

dedicated to the well-being of the young

00:47:48 --> 00:47:50

man so it means he wants to optimize

00:47:50 --> 00:47:52

him for him to come closer to Allah

00:47:53 --> 00:47:55

what's the context of the young man he's

00:47:55 --> 00:47:58

young he's got testosterone he wants to you

00:47:58 --> 00:48:03

know express himself he has a desire he

00:48:03 --> 00:48:05

doesn't want it to turn into a blameworthy

00:48:05 --> 00:48:08

desire which is doing acts of haram but

00:48:08 --> 00:48:10

that's why he's saying look I have this

00:48:10 --> 00:48:12

desire which is natural help me here right

00:48:12 --> 00:48:15

and how did the Prophet ﷺ deal with

00:48:15 --> 00:48:17

him he got him to empathize you know

00:48:17 --> 00:48:19

a young man has a lot of ghayrah

00:48:19 --> 00:48:20

a lot of protective jealousy for his women

00:48:20 --> 00:48:22

folks he said what about your mother what

00:48:22 --> 00:48:24

about your sister your auntie and then he

00:48:24 --> 00:48:28

made dua for him look at wallahi when

00:48:28 --> 00:48:30

you analyze the sunnah of the Prophet ﷺ

00:48:30 --> 00:48:33

and you unpack the psychological emotional nuances you're

00:48:33 --> 00:48:36

like subhanallah this is something else I believe

00:48:36 --> 00:48:39

ya khayr just analyzing shama'il tirmidhi is

00:48:39 --> 00:48:42

enough for you to become Muslim wallah because

00:48:42 --> 00:48:44

when you see so many ahadith in there

00:48:44 --> 00:48:48

like when he's Anas bin Malik right the

00:48:48 --> 00:48:52

servant of the Prophet ﷺ what happened he

00:48:52 --> 00:48:54

said I was his servant of the Prophet

00:48:54 --> 00:48:57

ﷺ for about 10 years and not once

00:48:57 --> 00:48:59

did I hear him say why didn't you

00:48:59 --> 00:49:00

do this and why didn't you do that

00:49:00 --> 00:49:02

khalas for me that's enough ya khayr I'm

00:49:02 --> 00:49:05

a parent alhamdulillah I'm a father I am

00:49:05 --> 00:49:08

telling you it is almost impossible for me

00:49:08 --> 00:49:10

not to say that within 10 hours or

00:49:10 --> 00:49:13

something now imagine 10 years and even if

00:49:13 --> 00:49:15

I tried not to say for 10 years

00:49:15 --> 00:49:17

I would be in a constant state of

00:49:17 --> 00:49:19

anxiety and I would be in a constant

00:49:19 --> 00:49:22

state of you know not being able to

00:49:22 --> 00:49:25

function normally now the Prophet ﷺ didn't even

00:49:25 --> 00:49:27

say that once right and all the other

00:49:27 --> 00:49:28

things that he had to deal with he

00:49:28 --> 00:49:30

was a statesman he was a father he

00:49:30 --> 00:49:33

was a judge he was leading an army

00:49:33 --> 00:49:35

and so on and so forth so when

00:49:35 --> 00:49:37

you look at these ahadith and come back

00:49:37 --> 00:49:39

to the hikmah point this is an example

00:49:39 --> 00:49:41

of hikmah and you see this and some

00:49:41 --> 00:49:43

people say oh but sometimes in the seerah

00:49:43 --> 00:49:44

you may find the Prophet ﷺ a little

00:49:44 --> 00:49:48

bit assertive that's hikmah too because he wanted

00:49:48 --> 00:49:51

an Allah pleasing goal he understood the context

00:49:51 --> 00:49:54

applied ilm in that context to achieve that

00:49:54 --> 00:49:57

particular goal it doesn't always mean be nice

00:49:57 --> 00:50:00

right another example of hikmah is the famous

00:50:00 --> 00:50:02

story actually we won't address it now we'll

00:50:02 --> 00:50:03

address it in one of the questions that

00:50:03 --> 00:50:05

we're talking about why some of the sahaba

00:50:05 --> 00:50:09

became Muslim but for me by the way

00:50:09 --> 00:50:14

my lack of um uh interruptions is because

00:50:14 --> 00:50:17

I'm just enjoying this yeah sorry sorry you

00:50:17 --> 00:50:19

have to carry on I wanted to give

00:50:19 --> 00:50:20

you platform but I'm talking a lot but

00:50:20 --> 00:50:23

the point is the hikmah is so important

00:50:23 --> 00:50:25

and I wanted to do something where I

00:50:25 --> 00:50:28

look at you know public duat and some

00:50:28 --> 00:50:29

of the things that they do in Hyde

00:50:29 --> 00:50:31

Park other places and analyze it from a

00:50:31 --> 00:50:35

prophetic hikmah perspective this is needed this is

00:50:35 --> 00:50:38

so needed because what that does it does

00:50:38 --> 00:50:40

a few things ya akhi it makes people

00:50:40 --> 00:50:42

focus on ikhlas because if you want an

00:50:42 --> 00:50:45

Allah pleasing goal it's not about me being

00:50:45 --> 00:50:47

right or wrong anymore or looking good or

00:50:47 --> 00:50:49

imposing it's about Allah what's more pleasing to

00:50:49 --> 00:50:51

him also it means you have to have

00:50:51 --> 00:50:54

a sound aql to understand the context and

00:50:54 --> 00:50:57

you have to access ilm to apply it

00:50:57 --> 00:50:59

in that context to achieve that particular Allah

00:50:59 --> 00:51:01

pleasing goal and that's why the duat will

00:51:01 --> 00:51:04

move away from halal and haram but it's

00:51:04 --> 00:51:07

allowed because the dawah needs something more it

00:51:07 --> 00:51:10

needs to understand that we have a competition

00:51:10 --> 00:51:12

of halals some things are more pleasing to

00:51:12 --> 00:51:15

Allah than others which connects to surah fusilat

00:51:15 --> 00:51:18

right verse 34 Allah says good and evil

00:51:18 --> 00:51:21

are not the same which is better between

00:51:21 --> 00:51:23

two people there's any enmity or hatred it

00:51:23 --> 00:51:24

would turn to intimate friendship this is very

00:51:24 --> 00:51:27

difficult except for the patient it's a higher

00:51:27 --> 00:51:31

value here so I want to revise this

00:51:31 --> 00:51:33

understanding of hikmah and I think this pattern

00:51:33 --> 00:51:35

works I'm not saying it's a hard and

00:51:35 --> 00:51:37

fast rule but you could apply it to

00:51:37 --> 00:51:41

every instance from my limited knowledge on the

00:51:41 --> 00:51:43

sunnah of the Prophet ﷺ in terms of

00:51:43 --> 00:51:46

hikmah and for that to happen you have

00:51:46 --> 00:51:47

to be humble and that comes with age

00:51:47 --> 00:51:50

sometimes and experience Umar ibn al-Khattab said

00:51:51 --> 00:51:53

that when you're humble Allah will grant you

00:51:53 --> 00:51:56

hikmah right so that means you need to

00:51:56 --> 00:51:58

work on your nafs because you you know

00:51:58 --> 00:52:00

have you ever seen someone who's wise and

00:52:00 --> 00:52:03

has kibar I've never seen an arrogant wise

00:52:03 --> 00:52:06

guy before right Um you know obviously in

00:52:06 --> 00:52:07

the movies the wise guy but the wise

00:52:07 --> 00:52:09

guy has a mafia context and they have

00:52:09 --> 00:52:11

kibar anyway so anyway so I wanted to

00:52:11 --> 00:52:13

mention the theological backdrop because it's important because

00:52:13 --> 00:52:15

I think this is how your book and

00:52:15 --> 00:52:17

the arguments fit within the idea of the

00:52:17 --> 00:52:20

fitrah and fit within the idea of hikmah

00:52:20 --> 00:52:23

because when you look at for example some

00:52:23 --> 00:52:25

of the interactions for example the interaction with

00:52:25 --> 00:52:28

Umair the Prophet ﷺ the way he spoke

00:52:28 --> 00:52:30

to him you see a lot of wisdom

00:52:30 --> 00:52:32

even in the psychology of the interaction of

00:52:32 --> 00:52:35

why Umair became Rajaullah and became Muslim and

00:52:35 --> 00:52:38

which we'll discuss yeah that's a good point

00:52:38 --> 00:52:41

I didn't really think about it um what

00:52:41 --> 00:52:43

were the things that you noticed yeah so

00:52:43 --> 00:52:45

we're gonna get to that so I just

00:52:45 --> 00:52:47

want to be a little bit more structured

00:52:47 --> 00:52:48

if you don't mind and let's go to

00:52:48 --> 00:52:52

the first lesson yeah the conversion of if

00:52:52 --> 00:52:55

you like the the bandit tribe the Al

00:52:55 --> 00:52:59

-Rifa'a right so talk to us about

00:52:59 --> 00:53:02

a brief discussion of that story and what

00:53:02 --> 00:53:04

are the kind of key lessons of the

00:53:04 --> 00:53:08

conversion um to be honest I feel that

00:53:08 --> 00:53:13

it's it's it's told so well by Abu

00:53:13 --> 00:53:16

Dharr himself and that's one of the great

00:53:16 --> 00:53:18

things about the story it's he's telling the

00:53:18 --> 00:53:21

story he says he says so well that

00:53:21 --> 00:53:24

I feel that me saying is butchering the

00:53:24 --> 00:53:29

story um but I guess I could I

00:53:29 --> 00:53:35

could just summarize it um basically Abu Dharr's

00:53:35 --> 00:53:38

brother is someone who's very well-versed in

00:53:39 --> 00:53:43

uh Munafarat and naturally someone who's eloquent he's

00:53:43 --> 00:53:48

someone who's a poet and um basically he

00:53:48 --> 00:53:51

and Abu Dharr um well him specifically goes

00:53:51 --> 00:53:55

into Mecca and comes across the Prophet peace

00:53:55 --> 00:53:59

be upon him and he hears the Prophet

00:53:59 --> 00:54:01

peace be upon him reciting the Qur'an

00:54:02 --> 00:54:07

now uh Unais al-Ghifari being a poet

00:54:08 --> 00:54:12

was sufficient subhanAllah today we come across um

00:54:12 --> 00:54:17

critics of Islam Islamophobes saying things like you

00:54:17 --> 00:54:18

know I read the Qur'an I wasn't

00:54:18 --> 00:54:26

affected but that was a 7th century poet

00:54:26 --> 00:54:30

that decided to change his religion upon hearing

00:54:30 --> 00:54:33

the Qur'an what does that say?

00:54:34 --> 00:54:39

maybe there's something off maybe you're just maybe

00:54:39 --> 00:54:41

his background is different than yours and it's

00:54:41 --> 00:54:44

causing him to take that Qur'anic challenge

00:54:44 --> 00:54:47

a lot more seriously than you do um

00:54:48 --> 00:54:51

and uh that's how it starts off and

00:54:51 --> 00:54:55

uh Abu Dharr himself then goes into Mecca

00:54:55 --> 00:54:57

and meets up with the Prophet peace be

00:54:57 --> 00:54:59

upon him and hears the Qur'an and

00:54:59 --> 00:55:03

he pretty much converts as well um now

00:55:03 --> 00:55:05

the reason why it's it's uh such a

00:55:05 --> 00:55:08

cool story is because Abu Dharr speaks about

00:55:09 --> 00:55:13

his initial first moments after conversion and basically

00:55:13 --> 00:55:19

him rebelling against Quraysh and shouting at the

00:55:19 --> 00:55:22

top of his lungs his uh testimony of

00:55:22 --> 00:55:27

faith which eventually leads the tribe to beat

00:55:27 --> 00:55:32

him half to death and you know what

00:55:32 --> 00:55:34

a way to start off your you know

00:55:34 --> 00:55:36

your your uh Islam right?

00:55:37 --> 00:55:43

um and it's ironic because al-Abbas saves

00:55:43 --> 00:55:45

Abu Dharr's life by telling the people by

00:55:45 --> 00:55:50

telling people of Quraysh he's from Ghaffar that's

00:55:50 --> 00:55:53

where that's where we go through when we're

00:55:53 --> 00:55:56

heading off towards a Sham you really want

00:55:56 --> 00:55:59

to mess with someone from Ghaffar that's that's

00:55:59 --> 00:56:01

the tribe of raiders that we go through

00:56:01 --> 00:56:01

right?

00:56:01 --> 00:56:03

we pass through the well clearly there's a

00:56:03 --> 00:56:07

deal between Ghaffar and Quraysh um for them

00:56:07 --> 00:56:09

to be able to go through their areas

00:56:09 --> 00:56:09

right?

00:56:11 --> 00:56:12

uh but by the way Ghaffar weren't so

00:56:12 --> 00:56:16

they're not so friendly with others because um

00:56:16 --> 00:56:20

they they actually were famous for uh pillaging

00:56:20 --> 00:56:22

um well pillaging I don't know if that's

00:56:22 --> 00:56:25

the right word raiding raiding the people that

00:56:25 --> 00:56:28

are going to Mecca how like that's kind

00:56:28 --> 00:56:29

of ironic right?

00:56:29 --> 00:56:31

so they're not they're not they're not uh

00:56:31 --> 00:56:34

raiding the Meccans themselves but they're raiding the

00:56:34 --> 00:56:36

people going to Mecca that's so that's like

00:56:37 --> 00:56:38

that's like the worst thing you can do

00:56:38 --> 00:56:39

right?

00:56:39 --> 00:56:40

like these guys are on a spiritual journey

00:56:40 --> 00:56:43

going to Mecca let's raid them that's that's

00:56:43 --> 00:56:47

that was Ghaffar so they've changed completely Abu

00:56:47 --> 00:56:50

Dharr changes completely his tribe changes completely they

00:56:50 --> 00:56:53

all convert to Islam and it starts off

00:56:53 --> 00:56:56

with Hunayth himself and Abu Dharr hearing the

00:56:56 --> 00:57:01

Quran simple as that so yeah there's there's

00:57:01 --> 00:57:04

a lot to unpack there but that's more

00:57:04 --> 00:57:06

or less it how did you feel about

00:57:06 --> 00:57:08

I'm sure you've come across this one before

00:57:08 --> 00:57:12

though yeah I mean you know what's interesting

00:57:12 --> 00:57:16

is you quote Hunayth and him being a

00:57:16 --> 00:57:20

poet and he says I have heard the

00:57:20 --> 00:57:23

speech of the the the soothsayers and this

00:57:23 --> 00:57:25

is not their speech I have compared his

00:57:25 --> 00:57:28

words to the types of poetry but no

00:57:28 --> 00:57:30

one can say it's poetry by Allah he

00:57:30 --> 00:57:34

is truthful and they are the liars for

00:57:34 --> 00:57:36

me this is an interesting insight as well

00:57:36 --> 00:57:42

which is an indication that the remarkable nature

00:57:42 --> 00:57:43

of the book of Allah subhanahu wa ta

00:57:43 --> 00:57:47

'ala is not just in the meaning yes

00:57:47 --> 00:57:49

it's the meaning but it's also the wording

00:57:49 --> 00:57:52

now why do I say this I say

00:57:52 --> 00:57:55

this strategically because I think there is a

00:57:55 --> 00:58:00

kind of quasi movement or the initial steps

00:58:00 --> 00:58:03

of an intellectual movement or pseudo intellectual movement

00:58:04 --> 00:58:07

that they're trying to divorce the wording from

00:58:07 --> 00:58:11

the meaning and I know some people do

00:58:11 --> 00:58:14

this because they're doing it for reasons of

00:58:14 --> 00:58:17

you know many in the Asia subcontinent they

00:58:17 --> 00:58:19

see Islam as you know sometimes an ethno

00:58:19 --> 00:58:22

religious cult it says identity markers we recite

00:58:22 --> 00:58:24

the Quran we memorize it we don't need

00:58:24 --> 00:58:25

to know anything about the meaning we don't

00:58:25 --> 00:58:27

have to understand what guidance actually says so

00:58:27 --> 00:58:30

I get it but I think it's starting

00:58:30 --> 00:58:34

to turn into this kind of intellectual position

00:58:34 --> 00:58:36

which I think is a false position because

00:58:36 --> 00:58:40

you can't really divorce wording from meaning because

00:58:40 --> 00:58:44

words are vehicles to meaning and the way

00:58:44 --> 00:58:47

something is said is sometimes as significant or

00:58:47 --> 00:58:52

as a significant aspect of the semantics of

00:58:52 --> 00:58:56

the meaning itself and this is an indication

00:58:56 --> 00:58:59

that we can't really say oh just take

00:58:59 --> 00:59:02

the meaning right this is the main point

00:59:02 --> 00:59:03

I think it's a little bit more than

00:59:03 --> 00:59:05

that as well because you know I give

00:59:05 --> 00:59:09

an example Allah says that the one who

00:59:09 --> 00:59:13

purifies himself succeeds okay now if we were

00:59:13 --> 00:59:18

to divorce the style or to divorce the

00:59:18 --> 00:59:22

emphatic nature or to divorce the wording and

00:59:22 --> 00:59:25

the stylistics from the meaning the meaning would

00:59:25 --> 00:59:28

be diminished slightly and I'm giving you a

00:59:28 --> 00:59:29

point that you don't even need to know

00:59:29 --> 00:59:34

Arabic because in that surah surah Tashams Allah

00:59:34 --> 00:59:38

makes 11 oaths it is the only time

00:59:38 --> 00:59:42

Allah makes 11 oaths consecutively only for one

00:59:42 --> 00:59:45

topic which shows how important it is to

00:59:45 --> 00:59:48

purify yourself right to purify your soul, your

00:59:48 --> 00:59:50

nafs, spiritual diseases of the heart and so

00:59:50 --> 00:59:52

on and so forth now if you were

00:59:52 --> 00:59:55

just to take the meaning on its own

00:59:55 --> 00:59:56

in an abstract sense it would kind of

00:59:56 --> 00:59:58

like diminish the meaning itself because if it's

00:59:58 --> 01:00:01

combined with the style then it gives that

01:00:01 --> 01:00:03

sense of emphasis you see and that sense

01:00:03 --> 01:00:06

of seriousness and by the way 11 of

01:00:06 --> 01:00:08

those oaths around 3 times Allah says by

01:00:08 --> 01:00:12

himself it's phenomenal so I wanted to add

01:00:12 --> 01:00:15

that in there because you know I've been

01:00:15 --> 01:00:19

seeing people say things online but they're not

01:00:19 --> 01:00:21

very famous but you know I know where

01:00:21 --> 01:00:23

their motivations are coming from but I think

01:00:23 --> 01:00:24

we need to be a little more balanced

01:00:24 --> 01:00:27

the style and the meaning can come together

01:00:27 --> 01:00:30

and they're significant so that's one thing I

01:00:30 --> 01:00:32

wanted to mention just to maybe you know

01:00:32 --> 01:00:35

put it out there it's very important what

01:00:35 --> 01:00:39

you're saying is very important and I would

01:00:39 --> 01:00:43

argue that usually so when some people speak

01:00:43 --> 01:00:46

about the miracle of the Quran they say

01:00:46 --> 01:00:50

things like the Quran is miraculous because it

01:00:50 --> 01:00:54

speaks about events that came to pass so

01:00:54 --> 01:00:56

there are prophecies in the Quran there aren't

01:00:56 --> 01:00:58

that many right?

01:00:58 --> 01:01:00

it's not going to be like hundreds oh

01:01:00 --> 01:01:03

hey there's like 6,000 verses in the

01:01:03 --> 01:01:04

Quran right?

01:01:04 --> 01:01:06

there aren't that many prophecies that come to

01:01:06 --> 01:01:10

pass there's several speaking about what the Prophet

01:01:10 --> 01:01:11

peace be upon him was going to do

01:01:11 --> 01:01:14

his victories against Quraysh and what not and

01:01:14 --> 01:01:17

the Romans etc etc but you know you

01:01:17 --> 01:01:23

can't say that the Quran is a miracle

01:01:23 --> 01:01:28

because because it barely happens it doesn't happen

01:01:28 --> 01:01:29

too often right?

01:01:30 --> 01:01:35

the meanings also a lot of the meanings

01:01:35 --> 01:01:38

are similar to Biblical meanings right?

01:01:39 --> 01:01:41

and some of the things that happened with

01:01:41 --> 01:01:43

Moses peace be upon him and Pharaoh and

01:01:43 --> 01:01:46

Yusuf peace be upon him meanings are similar

01:01:46 --> 01:01:49

so some of the meanings are miraculous so

01:01:49 --> 01:01:53

what is left is what exactly what Unais

01:01:53 --> 01:01:57

appreciated it's the Alfaw it's the Taraqib it's

01:01:57 --> 01:02:00

the sentences themselves it's the structures that's what

01:02:00 --> 01:02:05

set the Quran apart from everything else yeah

01:02:05 --> 01:02:08

absolutely absolutely and there's a view that the

01:02:08 --> 01:02:11

kind of structure if you like of the

01:02:11 --> 01:02:14

literary form of the Quran is distinct and

01:02:14 --> 01:02:16

unique because generally speaking in the Arabic language

01:02:16 --> 01:02:20

you have this idea of rhymed prose which

01:02:20 --> 01:02:22

is Saja a rhymed prose as Devin J.

01:02:23 --> 01:02:27

Stewart says rhymed prose is prose formed by

01:02:27 --> 01:02:29

ends with a rhyme generally ends with a

01:02:29 --> 01:02:32

rhyme generally a monorhyme and it has a

01:02:32 --> 01:02:35

concentrated use of rhetorical devices okay then you

01:02:35 --> 01:02:38

have poetry and in classical Arabic poetry you

01:02:38 --> 01:02:41

obviously have the rhyme and you also have

01:02:41 --> 01:02:45

the metrical patterns there's around 16 Al-Bihar

01:02:45 --> 01:02:46

right?

01:02:46 --> 01:02:48

the metrical patterns that it adheres to A

01:02:48 --> 01:02:51

.J. Aubrey has a book that shows you

01:02:51 --> 01:02:53

the scansions of the Al-Bihar of the

01:02:53 --> 01:02:57

metrical patterns also with Saja'a what you

01:02:57 --> 01:03:02

usually have is an accent-based rhythmical pattern

01:03:02 --> 01:03:05

it's not based on the syllable it's based

01:03:05 --> 01:03:07

on the accent just like in English nursery

01:03:07 --> 01:03:11

rhymes we say ba ba black sheep have

01:03:11 --> 01:03:12

you any wool?

01:03:12 --> 01:03:12

right?

01:03:12 --> 01:03:14

sorry for the singing but that nursery rhyme

01:03:14 --> 01:03:17

is an accent-based rhythmical pattern now the

01:03:17 --> 01:03:19

Qur'an came down and smashed it all

01:03:19 --> 01:03:20

apart right?

01:03:21 --> 01:03:24

it just smashed it all apart and it's

01:03:24 --> 01:03:27

not the totality of a surah is not

01:03:27 --> 01:03:29

metrical speech and it's not rhymed prose in

01:03:29 --> 01:03:31

actual fact if you take Surah Yusuf for

01:03:31 --> 01:03:35

example there's sometimes an intermingling between metrical and

01:03:35 --> 01:03:37

non-metrical speech in such a way that

01:03:37 --> 01:03:40

you don't even see the shift it's just

01:03:40 --> 01:03:43

phenomenal so structurally there's an argument that it's

01:03:43 --> 01:03:46

totally structurally different as well but obviously in

01:03:46 --> 01:03:49

the classical intellectual tradition there are many opinions

01:03:49 --> 01:03:51

on the ijaz of the Qur'an but

01:03:51 --> 01:03:52

I don't like getting into them I'll tell

01:03:52 --> 01:03:55

you why this is being empirical about it

01:03:55 --> 01:03:58

you don't have to have a view on

01:03:58 --> 01:03:59

the ijaz you know if it's for example

01:03:59 --> 01:04:02

the mutazili view which is where it's not

01:04:02 --> 01:04:06

intrinsically miraculous Allah just puts a stop to

01:04:06 --> 01:04:09

any challenges then you have another opinion which

01:04:09 --> 01:04:12

is about the eloquence and another opinion about

01:04:12 --> 01:04:14

so on and so forth we don't have

01:04:14 --> 01:04:17

to get into that just be empirical look

01:04:17 --> 01:04:18

at Surah Al-Kawthar for example and say

01:04:18 --> 01:04:20

okay what's going on here look at the

01:04:20 --> 01:04:22

Qur'an and just discuss what's going on

01:04:22 --> 01:04:23

here and I think that's more of a

01:04:23 --> 01:04:26

more easier approach rather than pre-framing any

01:04:26 --> 01:04:28

particular approach to the linguistic miracle of the

01:04:28 --> 01:04:32

Qur'an but notwithstanding yeah you're right yeah

01:04:32 --> 01:04:34

I feel I feel a need to say

01:04:34 --> 01:04:38

that that's that wouldn't I mean attributing that

01:04:38 --> 01:04:41

view to the mutazila as a whole wouldn't

01:04:41 --> 01:04:44

be fair because like some of the strongest

01:04:44 --> 01:04:47

voices against that view were also mutazili right

01:04:47 --> 01:04:52

like yeah epic very good so Navam Navam

01:04:52 --> 01:04:55

saying that it's simply that Allah subhanahu wa

01:04:55 --> 01:04:59

ta'ala prevented the the Arabs from taking

01:04:59 --> 01:05:02

part in the challenge that is that was

01:05:02 --> 01:05:05

destroyed it was destroyed by Al-Jahaw and

01:05:05 --> 01:05:08

those that came after him they were like

01:05:08 --> 01:05:11

absolutely that's not what's going on it's literally

01:05:11 --> 01:05:16

no one ever being able to match this

01:05:16 --> 01:05:19

due to the language and again they're mutazila

01:05:19 --> 01:05:23

themselves so I mean despite our issues with

01:05:23 --> 01:05:27

the mutazila yeah I mean the mutazila did

01:05:27 --> 01:05:31

a really good job in proving and showing

01:05:31 --> 01:05:35

the strength of the Qur'an linguistically wow

01:05:35 --> 01:05:38

Jazakallah I actually wasn't aware of that may

01:05:38 --> 01:05:41

Allah bless you so that's going to be

01:05:41 --> 01:05:43

important for the updated version of one of

01:05:43 --> 01:05:47

the articles that I wrote Jazakallah so so

01:05:47 --> 01:05:49

yeah so you're right so that's the kind

01:05:49 --> 01:05:50

of insights that I get and obviously when

01:05:50 --> 01:05:53

I have time to discuss and obviously this

01:05:53 --> 01:05:54

is beyond my pay grade if you like

01:05:54 --> 01:05:58

to actually showcase the inimitability of the Qur

01:05:58 --> 01:06:01

'an but you know there is a strong

01:06:01 --> 01:06:05

view that we can show that the Qur

01:06:05 --> 01:06:08

'an is linguistically inimitable and it doesn't require

01:06:08 --> 01:06:10

you to have any access to the Arabic

01:06:10 --> 01:06:12

language and you could do this with the

01:06:12 --> 01:06:16

whole argument that there's a historical consensus or

01:06:16 --> 01:06:18

understanding of the Arabs at the time and

01:06:18 --> 01:06:21

the eloquence and there was a challenge and

01:06:21 --> 01:06:23

therefore we could ask the question could it

01:06:23 --> 01:06:24

have come from an Arab and we discuss

01:06:24 --> 01:06:27

why it can't be the case and we

01:06:27 --> 01:06:29

mentioned this earlier could it have come from

01:06:29 --> 01:06:30

a non-Arab and we could say why

01:06:30 --> 01:06:32

that can't be the case then we say

01:06:32 --> 01:06:33

could it have come from the Prophet ﷺ

01:06:33 --> 01:06:35

and we discuss why that can't be the

01:06:35 --> 01:06:39

case and then we say well the best

01:06:40 --> 01:06:42

explanation is that it came from the Divine

01:06:42 --> 01:06:45

from Allah ﷻ and to unpack that further

01:06:45 --> 01:06:47

I could provide a link in the description

01:06:47 --> 01:06:49

for people to read and also people can

01:06:49 --> 01:06:52

access the book because the book actually does

01:06:52 --> 01:06:54

start to talk about you know what makes

01:06:54 --> 01:06:57

the Qur'an so special right and you

01:06:57 --> 01:07:01

go into actually some fascinating aspects of the

01:07:01 --> 01:07:03

book of Allah ﷻ which obviously I worked

01:07:03 --> 01:07:05

before Before getting into that I just want

01:07:05 --> 01:07:09

to point out since you're mentioning that and

01:07:09 --> 01:07:12

this has to do with like indirect proofs

01:07:12 --> 01:07:15

for Prophethood and I really feel there's so

01:07:15 --> 01:07:17

much more that can be done in regards

01:07:17 --> 01:07:23

to this because historically you mainly had books

01:07:23 --> 01:07:27

that focus on the literal miracles of the

01:07:27 --> 01:07:30

Prophet ﷺ and you had books that spoke

01:07:30 --> 01:07:33

about the ijaz of the Qur'an and

01:07:33 --> 01:07:35

books that focused on like prophecies that came

01:07:35 --> 01:07:39

to pass and what not but you see

01:07:39 --> 01:07:42

what you just mentioned right here about could

01:07:42 --> 01:07:46

it be from someone that taught the Prophet

01:07:46 --> 01:07:49

ﷺ could it be from he himself like

01:07:49 --> 01:07:54

that sort of question and getting deeper into

01:07:54 --> 01:07:55

that there's so much that can be done

01:07:55 --> 01:08:01

just with that one because we do have

01:08:02 --> 01:08:04

so many of these reports where the Prophet

01:08:04 --> 01:08:10

ﷺ starts sweating profusely on a cold night

01:08:11 --> 01:08:14

this is not like something that's natural it's

01:08:14 --> 01:08:17

not something that's natural and then he starts

01:08:17 --> 01:08:20

reciting all these verses that are connected to

01:08:20 --> 01:08:24

what's happening in front of him and plus

01:08:24 --> 01:08:29

you have a man who the people of

01:08:29 --> 01:08:33

the city are identifying as Jibril even though

01:08:33 --> 01:08:35

he's just a man it's not someone who's

01:08:35 --> 01:08:37

coming in with wings it's just a man

01:08:37 --> 01:08:40

in the masjid who's going over the Qur

01:08:40 --> 01:08:43

'an with the Rasul ﷺ and they're like

01:08:43 --> 01:08:47

yeah that's Jibril you know and that's sort

01:08:47 --> 01:08:50

of naturally if someone who's a non-Muslim

01:08:50 --> 01:08:52

is looking at this yeah well clearly that's

01:08:52 --> 01:08:56

the person who taught Muhammad the Qur'an

01:08:57 --> 01:09:00

then why wasn't he identified as the actual

01:09:00 --> 01:09:03

person that he is and of course you

01:09:03 --> 01:09:07

have reports that are connected to that person

01:09:07 --> 01:09:09

with the supernatural sometimes he comes in the

01:09:09 --> 01:09:12

form of Dahi Al Kalbi and I have

01:09:12 --> 01:09:14

a video about that I don't know if

01:09:14 --> 01:09:15

you've checked it out it's called I think

01:09:15 --> 01:09:17

it's called The Man That Taught Muhammad Peace

01:09:17 --> 01:09:19

Be Upon Him The Qur'an it's called

01:09:19 --> 01:09:22

something like that with all these random instances

01:09:22 --> 01:09:27

where he's there and they're unable to associate

01:09:27 --> 01:09:31

him with a specific individual and no one

01:09:31 --> 01:09:33

no one in town believes that he's Dahi

01:09:33 --> 01:09:36

no one literally sees him as Dahi right?

01:09:37 --> 01:09:39

everyone knows who Dahi is this man is

01:09:39 --> 01:09:41

not Dahi plus of course you have the

01:09:41 --> 01:09:44

famous Hadith of Umar Ibn Khattab in which

01:09:44 --> 01:09:48

he comes this man comes into the Masjid

01:09:48 --> 01:09:53

he is he doesn't show there's no signs

01:09:53 --> 01:09:56

of a journey on him like his clothes

01:09:56 --> 01:09:58

are extremely clean and what not and no

01:09:58 --> 01:10:01

one's able to identify him so he's like

01:10:01 --> 01:10:04

this newcomer in town no one's like oh

01:10:04 --> 01:10:07

yeah that's Dahi with really clean clothes no

01:10:07 --> 01:10:10

one's saying that so yeah there's so much

01:10:10 --> 01:10:14

to unpack there again as indirect proof for

01:10:14 --> 01:10:16

the Prophet Peace Be Upon Him and I

01:10:16 --> 01:10:18

think what's really nice about the indirect proof

01:10:18 --> 01:10:21

is that it's so easy to prove like

01:10:21 --> 01:10:23

the indirect proof you don't need to it's

01:10:23 --> 01:10:25

not really hard to swallow it's not something

01:10:25 --> 01:10:27

like okay miracle right?

01:10:27 --> 01:10:31

oh now you have this much proof for

01:10:31 --> 01:10:33

me to accept this miracle but the indirect

01:10:33 --> 01:10:36

stuff should be easy to swallow that's how

01:10:36 --> 01:10:39

I see it at least yeah no I

01:10:39 --> 01:10:41

agree and you know connecting to the fact

01:10:41 --> 01:10:44

that you know if you were to say

01:10:44 --> 01:10:45

it couldn't have come from an Arab it

01:10:45 --> 01:10:46

couldn't have come from an non-Arab then

01:10:46 --> 01:10:48

we also know it couldn't have come from

01:10:48 --> 01:10:49

the Prophet Peace Be Upon Him you know

01:10:49 --> 01:10:52

some of the indirect evidences are the life

01:10:52 --> 01:10:53

of the Prophet Peace Be Upon Him because

01:10:53 --> 01:10:55

if you see the life of the Prophet

01:10:55 --> 01:10:57

Peace Be Upon Him he experienced many trials

01:10:57 --> 01:10:59

and tribulations during the course of his kind

01:10:59 --> 01:11:02

of prophetic career or mission for example his

01:11:02 --> 01:11:05

children passed away his beloved wife Khadija passed

01:11:05 --> 01:11:08

away he was boycotted from his beloved city

01:11:08 --> 01:11:12

his close companions were tortured and killed he

01:11:12 --> 01:11:14

was stoned by children he engaged in military

01:11:14 --> 01:11:16

campaigns and so on and so forth and

01:11:16 --> 01:11:19

throughout all of this the Qur'an from

01:11:19 --> 01:11:23

a psycho-linguistic perspective remains in the divine

01:11:23 --> 01:11:23

voice right?

01:11:24 --> 01:11:27

yeah and nothing in the Qur'an expresses

01:11:27 --> 01:11:29

the turmoil or the emotions of a human

01:11:29 --> 01:11:30

being like the Prophet Peace Be Upon Him

01:11:30 --> 01:11:33

having those experiences and I would argue it's

01:11:33 --> 01:11:35

almost a psychological impossibility to go through what

01:11:35 --> 01:11:36

the Prophet Peace Be Upon Him went through

01:11:36 --> 01:11:39

and none of that resulted emotion manifest themselves

01:11:39 --> 01:11:41

in the book itself in the Qur'an

01:11:41 --> 01:11:45

itself also think about for example literary masterpieces

01:11:46 --> 01:11:48

literary masterpieces and you wrote written a book

01:11:48 --> 01:11:51

I've written a book Hamza please before moving

01:11:51 --> 01:11:52

on to that before moving on to that

01:11:52 --> 01:11:56

next point have you you know Dr. Iyad

01:11:56 --> 01:11:59

I don't want to mess up his last

01:11:59 --> 01:12:05

name Iyad Al Al-Nabi I believe familiar

01:12:05 --> 01:12:05

with him?

01:12:07 --> 01:12:11

it rings a bell yeah he has this

01:12:11 --> 01:12:13

video it's like an hour long he goes

01:12:13 --> 01:12:17

through exactly what you said the the divine

01:12:17 --> 01:12:20

voice in the Qur'an and how it's

01:12:20 --> 01:12:24

speaking from from above right?

01:12:24 --> 01:12:28

like the tone the tone in which like

01:12:28 --> 01:12:32

all the verses are speaking at man is

01:12:32 --> 01:12:34

actually proof for Islam itself and it's a

01:12:34 --> 01:12:37

it's a beautiful lecture which needs to be

01:12:37 --> 01:12:43

put into English and I need to if

01:12:43 --> 01:12:47

in the editing this can be like an

01:12:47 --> 01:12:49

image of the video could be shared or

01:12:49 --> 01:12:51

something because it's such an important video to

01:12:51 --> 01:12:54

check out and it's done so simply it's

01:12:54 --> 01:12:56

done so simply and so well you've given

01:12:56 --> 01:13:01

yourself a new project oh that's you've given

01:13:01 --> 01:13:03

yourself a new project Alhamdulillah so yeah no

01:13:03 --> 01:13:07

absolutely you're right and these things need to

01:13:07 --> 01:13:09

be explored and unpacked and the other thing

01:13:09 --> 01:13:11

that I wanted to mention was literally masterpieces

01:13:13 --> 01:13:15

you've written many books you've probably written poetry

01:13:15 --> 01:13:19

before I have it doesn't come out instantaneously

01:13:19 --> 01:13:22

it takes revision you have to edit you

01:13:22 --> 01:13:25

have to remove words change sentence structure like

01:13:25 --> 01:13:27

I'm just finishing a journal and responding to

01:13:27 --> 01:13:30

an academic that wrote about me in published

01:13:30 --> 01:13:34

academia and my PhD supervisors respond to him

01:13:34 --> 01:13:36

so I've just finished it the first final

01:13:36 --> 01:13:39

pre-final draft how many times do I

01:13:39 --> 01:13:42

have to edit that thing right but and

01:13:42 --> 01:13:44

literally masterpieces are the same when it comes

01:13:44 --> 01:13:45

to Shakespeare if you learn the history of

01:13:45 --> 01:13:49

Shakespeare even Al Mutanabbi one of the greatest

01:13:49 --> 01:13:53

Arab poets ever lived right he you know

01:13:53 --> 01:13:54

revised some of things and if you look

01:13:54 --> 01:13:56

at I think Al Hatim his criticism of

01:13:56 --> 01:13:59

him you know he actually borrowed stuff as

01:13:59 --> 01:14:02

well and made some grammatical errors and so

01:14:02 --> 01:14:03

on and so forth but hey putting that

01:14:03 --> 01:14:06

aside the point is literally masterpieces go through

01:14:06 --> 01:14:09

an evolution no doubt but Al Mutanabbi did

01:14:09 --> 01:14:12

not go through that literary editing or evolution

01:14:12 --> 01:14:14

and this is something which is quite interesting

01:14:14 --> 01:14:17

as well right and you know I think

01:14:17 --> 01:14:21

this constitutes good circumstantial evidence that the Quran

01:14:21 --> 01:14:24

given its inimitability could not have been produced

01:14:24 --> 01:14:26

by the Prophet ﷺ right because in the

01:14:26 --> 01:14:29

process of making good literature editing and amending

01:14:29 --> 01:14:32

are absolutely necessary right no one can produce

01:14:32 --> 01:14:37

kind of you know inimitable amazing you know

01:14:37 --> 01:14:42

chapters and verses on the go right but

01:14:42 --> 01:14:43

that's exactly what we see with the book

01:14:43 --> 01:14:47

of Allah ﷻ once it was recited revealed

01:14:47 --> 01:14:50

خلص Hamza now I have to I have

01:14:50 --> 01:14:54

to ask because the skeptical listener is is

01:14:54 --> 01:14:59

thinking but what about abrogation yeah well the

01:14:59 --> 01:15:02

verses are still there yeah so yeah fine

01:15:02 --> 01:15:04

so you don't have the verses being cleaned

01:15:04 --> 01:15:08

up that's the whole point and actually the

01:15:08 --> 01:15:11

argument supports our argument right because even if

01:15:11 --> 01:15:13

they abrogate from a legal perspective right like

01:15:13 --> 01:15:17

in law the point is not abrogating style

01:15:18 --> 01:15:21

right right yeah so there you go so

01:15:21 --> 01:15:26

yeah usually with detractors the detraction itself is

01:15:26 --> 01:15:27

proof against them if you unpack some of

01:15:27 --> 01:15:30

the premises or the assumptions that they're they're

01:15:30 --> 01:15:32

trying to come with no absolutely absolutely I

01:15:32 --> 01:15:34

had to I had to ask for the

01:15:34 --> 01:15:38

skeptical you know the skeptical folks no no

01:15:39 --> 01:15:45

so now what's interesting about the story of

01:15:45 --> 01:15:49

the first kind of testimony if you like

01:15:49 --> 01:15:53

or the first story is that you have

01:15:53 --> 01:15:57

a collective becoming Muslim yes what's the dynamic

01:15:57 --> 01:16:01

there do you think it was because it

01:16:01 --> 01:16:06

was of the inimitability of the Quran or

01:16:06 --> 01:16:08

was it the case that they looked up

01:16:08 --> 01:16:15

to the poet and said you know if

01:16:15 --> 01:16:17

he's such a master and he sees the

01:16:17 --> 01:16:20

Quran as superior then therefore we're going to

01:16:20 --> 01:16:22

accept it what do you think the dynamic

01:16:22 --> 01:16:24

is there was it because there was a

01:16:24 --> 01:16:28

sense of trust there was it more empirical

01:16:28 --> 01:16:32

that they actually also embraced it because of

01:16:32 --> 01:16:35

listening to the Quran it was what's the

01:16:35 --> 01:16:37

kind of history or the evidence that you

01:16:37 --> 01:16:40

know that tries to make you smile we

01:16:40 --> 01:16:44

don't have we don't have examples of the

01:16:44 --> 01:16:46

people of Jafar sharing their testimonies and what

01:16:46 --> 01:16:49

not but we can grant that it's not

01:16:49 --> 01:16:55

necessary for everyone to individually experience the Quran

01:16:55 --> 01:16:58

in order to come to that conclusion as

01:16:58 --> 01:17:01

you've pointed out it simply could be a

01:17:01 --> 01:17:03

matter of trust in Unais which by the

01:17:03 --> 01:17:06

way shouldn't be a problem because at the

01:17:06 --> 01:17:10

same time you have people that are in

01:17:10 --> 01:17:15

Egypt that see the magicians prostrating towards Musa

01:17:15 --> 01:17:19

they're not people who are able to identify

01:17:19 --> 01:17:22

what's a trick and what's magic but the

01:17:22 --> 01:17:26

magicians were so similarly when you have a

01:17:26 --> 01:17:30

poet who is someone who's actually making a

01:17:30 --> 01:17:36

living out of these literary competitions these munafarat

01:17:36 --> 01:17:39

and what not literally making a living out

01:17:39 --> 01:17:42

of this and he submits to the Quran

01:17:42 --> 01:17:45

upon hearing it for the first time that

01:17:45 --> 01:17:48

naturally does have a lot of weight and

01:17:48 --> 01:17:51

oh by the way definitely a topic that's

01:17:51 --> 01:17:59

worth getting into the actual poets themselves like

01:17:59 --> 01:18:02

Hassan Bin Thabit and Kab Bin Malik and

01:18:02 --> 01:18:06

why were they Muslim why did they convert

01:18:06 --> 01:18:09

to Islam why did they stay Muslim despite

01:18:10 --> 01:18:15

having reasons perhaps that could sway them away

01:18:15 --> 01:18:16

from Islam because there were some things that

01:18:16 --> 01:18:19

happened to Hassan Bin Thabit and Kab Bin

01:18:19 --> 01:18:22

Malik is of course a very famous story

01:18:22 --> 01:18:25

of Kab Bin Malik being separated away from

01:18:25 --> 01:18:29

the society for 50 days was it after

01:18:29 --> 01:18:33

Tabuk I mean that's not something that anyone

01:18:33 --> 01:18:36

would enjoy I'm sure that if I was

01:18:36 --> 01:18:41

boycotted by my tribe and my people for

01:18:41 --> 01:18:44

50 days I'd feel some sort of animosity

01:18:44 --> 01:18:46

towards this person that came in with a

01:18:46 --> 01:18:50

message I could do something better but naturally

01:18:50 --> 01:18:56

the poets themselves are they're great judges of

01:18:56 --> 01:19:00

what their abilities are and what is something

01:19:00 --> 01:19:04

that's within their capabilities so naturally you would

01:19:04 --> 01:19:07

have to have some people completely trusting them

01:19:07 --> 01:19:10

well it's like for example in most even

01:19:10 --> 01:19:14

contemporary knowledge this whole idea of testimony it's

01:19:14 --> 01:19:17

actually a fourth of knowledge in western philosophy

01:19:17 --> 01:19:20

it's called the epistemology of testimony and the

01:19:20 --> 01:19:23

discussions what constitutes valid testimony but even David

01:19:23 --> 01:19:27

Hume the sceptic he said that you know

01:19:27 --> 01:19:29

we have to accept testimony he made a

01:19:29 --> 01:19:33

mistake and professor Cody corrects him they're more

01:19:33 --> 01:19:36

contemporary because his mistake was we only accept

01:19:36 --> 01:19:38

testimony because it's in line with our collective

01:19:38 --> 01:19:42

experiences but basically Cody says well how do

01:19:42 --> 01:19:43

you know what your collective experiences are?

01:19:44 --> 01:19:46

you have to rely on someone's testimony to

01:19:46 --> 01:19:48

know what the collective experiences are and if

01:19:48 --> 01:19:49

you rely just on your own experience you

01:19:49 --> 01:19:52

won't have any empirical knowledge that is worth

01:19:52 --> 01:19:55

actually believing in like today's science if you

01:19:55 --> 01:19:58

study the scientific method properly you have to

01:19:58 --> 01:20:01

rely on testimony maybe in 80% of

01:20:01 --> 01:20:02

the stuff but you're claiming to be empirical

01:20:02 --> 01:20:05

but you're not for example the Darwinian mechanism

01:20:05 --> 01:20:08

is so complex now with DNA this that

01:20:08 --> 01:20:09

and the other you're not going to be

01:20:09 --> 01:20:11

an expert in every single field and you

01:20:11 --> 01:20:14

can't do every single experiment yourself you have

01:20:14 --> 01:20:17

to rely on authorities you have to and

01:20:17 --> 01:20:20

which is very interesting because even Hume he

01:20:20 --> 01:20:22

even mentions this I think it's in his

01:20:22 --> 01:20:26

inquiry and he says he doesn't deny by

01:20:26 --> 01:20:31

the way mutawatir the mutawatirat like recurrent reporting

01:20:32 --> 01:20:35

honestly and the atheists don't talk about this

01:20:35 --> 01:20:39

I mentioned this in the book and what

01:20:39 --> 01:20:41

he says is and I'm paraphrasing him imagine

01:20:41 --> 01:20:44

in the 1600s we had eight days of

01:20:44 --> 01:20:47

darkness and basically masses of people you know

01:20:47 --> 01:20:49

from different places that didn't meet each other

01:20:49 --> 01:20:51

supposedly and so on and so forth all

01:20:51 --> 01:20:52

came back to us and said there was

01:20:52 --> 01:20:56

eight days of darkness he said every rational

01:20:56 --> 01:20:59

person would have to believe in it honestly

01:20:59 --> 01:21:01

it's amazing it's amazing yeah so the reason

01:21:01 --> 01:21:04

this is important is because it's not a

01:21:04 --> 01:21:07

weak argument for a whole tribe to accept

01:21:07 --> 01:21:11

something because an authority has basically given a

01:21:11 --> 01:21:13

testimony we do this all the time when

01:21:13 --> 01:21:15

it comes to science when it comes to

01:21:15 --> 01:21:18

even believing the world is round and so

01:21:18 --> 01:21:19

on and so forth because all we've seen

01:21:19 --> 01:21:24

are basically testimonial proofs for the roundness of

01:21:24 --> 01:21:26

the world I'm not saying I believe the

01:21:26 --> 01:21:28

world is flat of course not but I

01:21:28 --> 01:21:30

haven't seen the world being round I just

01:21:30 --> 01:21:32

see photos but that's testimonial someone has to

01:21:32 --> 01:21:34

say well that is earth and even if

01:21:34 --> 01:21:35

someone says well I went in a rocket

01:21:35 --> 01:21:37

I just have to believe that you did

01:21:37 --> 01:21:38

that right and so on and so forth

01:21:39 --> 01:21:41

and anyway the point is it's an indispensable

01:21:41 --> 01:21:44

value source of knowledge so this is interesting

01:21:44 --> 01:21:49

this is very interesting okay Alhamdulillah so perfect

01:21:49 --> 01:21:51

this leads me to the second question then

01:21:51 --> 01:21:55

which for me is the best one sorry

01:21:55 --> 01:21:57

to say I mean they're all great but

01:21:57 --> 01:21:59

this one is just something else I was

01:21:59 --> 01:22:03

like whoa this is just fantastic so this

01:22:03 --> 01:22:06

is the question is what are the lessons

01:22:06 --> 01:22:12

of the two tribes of Medina becoming Muslim

01:22:12 --> 01:22:14

the two tribes that were fighting each other

01:22:14 --> 01:22:16

for I think what around a century and

01:22:16 --> 01:22:19

there were many attempts to try and create

01:22:19 --> 01:22:21

peace and they all failed and as a

01:22:21 --> 01:22:24

result of them becoming Muslim peace was established

01:22:24 --> 01:22:26

so tell us a bit about those two

01:22:26 --> 01:22:29

tribes and the lessons that we can learn

01:22:29 --> 01:22:32

from the conversion so the anything I say

01:22:32 --> 01:22:35

would be butchering the story unfortunately it's such

01:22:35 --> 01:22:40

a it's such a wild story and yeah

01:22:40 --> 01:22:46

especially like some of the some of the

01:22:46 --> 01:22:49

characters that show up and some of the

01:22:49 --> 01:22:55

pre-Islamic Arabs you know yeah some of

01:22:55 --> 01:22:58

them were just so heroic that that took

01:22:58 --> 01:23:02

part in some of those wars like Huvayr

01:23:02 --> 01:23:06

the father of Islam um that part just

01:23:06 --> 01:23:10

like broke my heart um but yeah it's

01:23:10 --> 01:23:13

a hundred 150 years of wars some of

01:23:13 --> 01:23:17

them for the most frivolous reason um and

01:23:17 --> 01:23:20

you can see how a bunch of these

01:23:20 --> 01:23:23

wars are connected and not there there was

01:23:23 --> 01:23:28

no sign of these wars stopping and much

01:23:28 --> 01:23:32

of it started off initially with some Jewish

01:23:32 --> 01:23:37

oppression against the Awus and Khazraj and then

01:23:37 --> 01:23:43

the Khazraj getting revenge and like basically massacring

01:23:43 --> 01:23:47

the heads of the Jews um after receiving

01:23:47 --> 01:23:51

some help from the uh uh tribe of

01:23:51 --> 01:23:57

Ghassan from the north um after that by

01:23:57 --> 01:23:59

the way this is again this is spanning

01:23:59 --> 01:24:03

like 150 years 100 something years so it's

01:24:03 --> 01:24:06

I'm really really shortening the story here and

01:24:06 --> 01:24:09

all these details um not all the details

01:24:09 --> 01:24:10

of course I mean there's just too many

01:24:10 --> 01:24:13

details but um a good chunk of the

01:24:13 --> 01:24:16

information can be found in uh the book

01:24:16 --> 01:24:24

itself um and then subhanallah you have those

01:24:24 --> 01:25:59

Jews saying to the Khazraj you convert

01:25:59 --> 01:26:02

now what I find again one of the

01:26:02 --> 01:26:06

indirect proofs for Islam now it's so easy

01:26:06 --> 01:26:07

to prove that the Aus and Khazraj converted

01:26:07 --> 01:26:10

to Islam very easy to prove that they

01:26:10 --> 01:26:14

converted right I mean it's it's something that's

01:26:14 --> 01:26:19

undeniable yes yeah um the reason for their

01:26:19 --> 01:26:22

conversion they just say it's that the Jews

01:26:22 --> 01:26:25

told us it was going to happen um

01:26:25 --> 01:26:29

if someone wanted to simply prove that Muhammad

01:26:29 --> 01:26:31

peace be upon him is in the Bible

01:26:31 --> 01:26:33

or Muhammad peace be upon him is in

01:26:33 --> 01:26:37

some sort of apocryphal text that's harder to

01:26:37 --> 01:26:39

prove right but what's easier to prove is

01:26:39 --> 01:26:43

you have these two massive tribes converting and

01:26:43 --> 01:26:47

you have them saying it's the Jews they

01:26:47 --> 01:26:49

told us that he's going to come at

01:26:49 --> 01:26:53

this time and those are very easy to

01:26:53 --> 01:26:57

prove so you've pieced these things together and

01:26:57 --> 01:27:02

it leads to a very compelling argument that's

01:27:02 --> 01:27:05

the short version that's the incredibly short version

01:27:05 --> 01:27:09

of the story well you know what's amazing

01:27:09 --> 01:27:12

is that these two tribes basically became the

01:27:12 --> 01:27:15

Ansar right not only that I think an

01:27:15 --> 01:27:17

indirect proof as well which you mentioned in

01:27:17 --> 01:27:22

the beginning of that particular conversion story is

01:27:22 --> 01:27:26

that no one could bring these two tribes

01:27:26 --> 01:27:29

together and reconcile their hearts it was impossible

01:27:29 --> 01:27:32

right they tried and it just failed and

01:27:32 --> 01:27:36

the prophet comes and you know the two

01:27:36 --> 01:27:38

tribes believe that he's a prophet sent by

01:27:38 --> 01:27:42

Allah and by extension of that it is

01:27:42 --> 01:27:45

Allah who brought them together and that is

01:27:45 --> 01:27:48

the kind of indirect miracle as well or

01:27:48 --> 01:27:52

something remarkable to reflect upon because you had

01:27:52 --> 01:27:59

this man and no one you know whoever

01:27:59 --> 01:28:01

they were with different levels of power and

01:28:01 --> 01:28:04

authority could reconcile their hearts and it took

01:28:04 --> 01:28:10

this this man from Makkah ﷺ who didn't

01:28:10 --> 01:28:13

travel to Medina or preach there talk there

01:28:13 --> 01:28:17

or you know even knew the situation right

01:28:17 --> 01:28:20

and you know from my understanding there wasn't

01:28:20 --> 01:28:22

any kind of sit down and let's make

01:28:22 --> 01:28:24

peace it was just it was an external

01:28:24 --> 01:28:26

thing to that it was it was just

01:28:26 --> 01:28:29

by virtue of him being a prophet right

01:28:29 --> 01:28:31

or them believing it was the prophet that

01:28:31 --> 01:28:34

the Jews actually said there is a prophecy

01:28:34 --> 01:28:39

in their tradition and Allah makes a remark

01:28:39 --> 01:28:41

of this in chapter 8 verse 63 as

01:28:41 --> 01:28:43

you cite Allah says and he brought together

01:28:43 --> 01:28:45

their hearts if he had spent all that

01:28:45 --> 01:28:47

is on earth and you could have not

01:28:47 --> 01:28:50

brought their hearts together but Allah brought them

01:28:50 --> 01:28:52

together indeed he is exalted in might and

01:28:52 --> 01:28:57

wise so that's a fascinating indirect thing to

01:28:57 --> 01:29:03

consider but I'd like to add that the

01:29:03 --> 01:29:08

situation was such a mess that the Aus

01:29:08 --> 01:29:12

and Khazraj they're technically brothers like these two

01:29:12 --> 01:29:19

tribes they're related and they're completely split apart

01:29:19 --> 01:29:24

they're killing each other and you have Jewish

01:29:24 --> 01:29:29

tribes siding with the Aus against Khazraj and

01:29:29 --> 01:29:32

Khazraj bringing external tribes from different places in

01:29:32 --> 01:29:35

Arabia to fight their brothers it's the biggest

01:29:35 --> 01:29:39

mess and it just got worse and worse

01:29:39 --> 01:29:44

and exponentially worse until I mean the last

01:29:44 --> 01:29:47

one the last war that occurs is slightly

01:29:47 --> 01:29:49

it was actually during the time of Rasulullah

01:29:49 --> 01:29:51

ﷺ while he was doing his Dawah in

01:29:51 --> 01:29:54

Mecca so it wasn't like yeah this thing

01:29:54 --> 01:29:57

was about to end and he just came

01:29:57 --> 01:29:58

at the right time now it was just

01:29:58 --> 01:30:00

getting worse and then they all convert to

01:30:00 --> 01:30:06

Islam and it just ended and yeah Alhamdulillah

01:30:06 --> 01:30:10

that for me is miraculous in itself but

01:30:10 --> 01:30:12

what's interesting is the Dawah of the Prophet

01:30:12 --> 01:30:16

ﷺ right so and you cite this that

01:30:16 --> 01:30:17

the Dawah of the Prophet ﷺ is that

01:30:17 --> 01:30:19

he called them to Allah Tawheed he presented

01:30:19 --> 01:30:22

Islam to them and he recited upon them

01:30:22 --> 01:30:23

the Qur'an so it's a very kind

01:30:23 --> 01:30:26

of Qur'anic centric Tawheed centric type of

01:30:26 --> 01:30:28

Dawah it's not as if the Prophet ﷺ

01:30:28 --> 01:30:29

said to them okay this is how you're

01:30:29 --> 01:30:31

going to create peace this is the strategy

01:30:31 --> 01:30:32

that we're going to use it was none

01:30:32 --> 01:30:34

of that right which adds to the kind

01:30:34 --> 01:30:38

of remarkable aspect of all of this but

01:30:38 --> 01:30:39

what I want you to zoom in on

01:30:39 --> 01:30:42

which really kind of it was like wow

01:30:42 --> 01:30:48

right was the time of the awaited Prophet

01:30:48 --> 01:30:51

according to the Jews okay and this is

01:30:51 --> 01:30:53

interesting because what you do you cite some

01:30:53 --> 01:30:57

apocryphal work right because you have these Jews

01:30:57 --> 01:31:00

in Medina right you know how they got

01:31:00 --> 01:31:04

there why they were there right explain and

01:31:04 --> 01:31:07

they are making a claim that a Prophet

01:31:07 --> 01:31:09

is going to come soon within this time

01:31:09 --> 01:31:14

right the way you've shown this to be

01:31:14 --> 01:31:16

likely to be the case is by referring

01:31:16 --> 01:31:19

to actually the Jewish tradition itself and doing

01:31:19 --> 01:31:23

some kind of biblical analysis of the words

01:31:23 --> 01:31:25

mainstream biblical analysis and you did some mathematics

01:31:25 --> 01:31:28

to show they actually fit that particular time

01:31:28 --> 01:31:29

when I saw that I was like wow

01:31:29 --> 01:31:31

never heard this before so maybe you can

01:31:31 --> 01:31:35

unpack that a bit sure before I just

01:31:35 --> 01:31:38

want to mention one thing the Jews knew

01:31:38 --> 01:31:40

when he was going to come and they

01:31:40 --> 01:31:42

knew where he was going to come and

01:31:44 --> 01:31:48

again this doesn't need to be this isn't

01:31:48 --> 01:31:52

like direct heavy hard proof for Islam you

01:31:52 --> 01:31:55

could assume the Jews got it wrong but

01:31:55 --> 01:31:58

they believed in it right so that's what

01:31:58 --> 01:32:02

we're saying even if we assume that the

01:32:02 --> 01:32:07

text in itself that they're quoting is something

01:32:07 --> 01:32:10

that's unreliable or let's say they got the

01:32:10 --> 01:32:14

calculation wrong or whatever it still was sufficient

01:32:14 --> 01:32:17

proof for them to make those claims and

01:32:17 --> 01:32:22

hey they used Isaiah 42 and we even

01:32:22 --> 01:32:24

have the report by Abdullah bin Salam saying

01:32:24 --> 01:32:27

that and the text that I was quoting

01:32:27 --> 01:32:29

and that's by the way that's one of

01:32:29 --> 01:32:32

the ways in which you can arrive at

01:32:32 --> 01:32:38

the specific time and very very close to

01:32:38 --> 01:32:39

that time period it's very accurate very accurate

01:32:39 --> 01:32:43

time period I've seen others for example in

01:32:43 --> 01:32:46

Abraham fulfilled what the brothers tried to do

01:32:46 --> 01:32:50

was they spoke about the specific period I

01:32:50 --> 01:32:55

believe they said after the fourth empire or

01:32:55 --> 01:32:58

the third empire so basically around the time

01:32:58 --> 01:33:01

I don't want to butcher this one either

01:33:01 --> 01:33:04

but they arrived at their calculation as well

01:33:04 --> 01:33:07

it was a more general calculation this was

01:33:07 --> 01:33:10

a very specific calculation and the text that

01:33:10 --> 01:33:12

was used I believe was called the assumption

01:33:12 --> 01:33:17

of Moses in which Moses is speaking to

01:33:18 --> 01:33:20

help me out here Hamza you read the

01:33:20 --> 01:33:27

book Joshua Joshua and he was saying something

01:33:27 --> 01:33:32

along the lines of he will be coming

01:33:32 --> 01:33:37

this person this individual will be arriving let

01:33:37 --> 01:33:39

me just read I think I need to

01:33:39 --> 01:33:41

read it I don't want to butcher it

01:33:41 --> 01:33:53

yeah okay all right here we go but

01:33:53 --> 01:33:56

you Joshua the son of noon keep these

01:33:56 --> 01:34:01

words and this book from my death me

01:34:01 --> 01:34:05

being taken away until his advent there will

01:34:05 --> 01:34:10

be 250 times that will happen and this

01:34:10 --> 01:34:12

is the course of events that will come

01:34:12 --> 01:34:16

to pass until they will be completed and

01:34:16 --> 01:34:22

the term his time this person is referring

01:34:22 --> 01:34:26

to the messenger and this messenger is mentioned

01:34:26 --> 01:34:31

in the previous page I believe of this

01:34:31 --> 01:34:35

prophecy yeah and then his kingdom will appear

01:34:35 --> 01:34:37

in his entire creation and then the devil

01:34:37 --> 01:34:40

will come to an end and sadness will

01:34:40 --> 01:34:43

be carried away together with him then the

01:34:43 --> 01:34:45

hands of the messenger when he will be

01:34:45 --> 01:34:48

in heaven will be filled and he will

01:34:48 --> 01:34:51

then avenge them against their enemies so that's

01:34:51 --> 01:34:54

from the assumption of Moses and of course

01:34:54 --> 01:34:57

I do mention the references in the specific

01:34:57 --> 01:35:00

text but just to quickly interrupt now this

01:35:00 --> 01:35:03

is a text that predates the Quranic text

01:35:03 --> 01:35:09

of course definitely definitely predates it by God

01:35:09 --> 01:35:12

knows how long so I think I think

01:35:12 --> 01:35:14

like they give they do give it like

01:35:14 --> 01:35:18

a late date because I mean there's only

01:35:18 --> 01:35:21

I mean when one when when academics date

01:35:21 --> 01:35:25

texts they don't usually date them to like

01:35:25 --> 01:35:29

the time of the prophets they don't they

01:35:29 --> 01:35:32

would often provide like they look for some

01:35:32 --> 01:35:36

sort of internal evidence to date texts quite

01:35:36 --> 01:35:39

a bit later I honestly don't recall what

01:35:39 --> 01:35:43

they relied on for this specific text you

01:35:43 --> 01:35:46

argue that due to some internal evidence the

01:35:46 --> 01:35:48

text is given a date by some western

01:35:48 --> 01:35:51

scholars as early as the fifth century which

01:35:51 --> 01:35:54

predates the psalm by several centuries right right

01:35:54 --> 01:35:57

sorry the first century sorry first century right

01:35:57 --> 01:36:01

yeah several centuries right which is very interesting

01:36:01 --> 01:36:06

and now okay so what is the significance

01:36:06 --> 01:36:10

of 250 times right yeah so so the

01:36:10 --> 01:36:12

times the term times here refers to something

01:36:12 --> 01:36:17

that they refer to as a week here

01:36:17 --> 01:36:19

I believe that's the that's the term that

01:36:19 --> 01:36:22

they used for this and the week here

01:36:22 --> 01:36:25

if I recall correctly is referring to seven

01:36:25 --> 01:36:29

years and if you multiply that by 250

01:36:29 --> 01:36:33

the number that you arrive at is a

01:36:33 --> 01:36:37

thousand seven hundred fifty now we don't know

01:36:37 --> 01:36:40

exactly when Moses passed away but we do

01:36:40 --> 01:36:44

know when Ramses II passed away and if

01:36:44 --> 01:36:47

we do the math plus the 40 years

01:36:47 --> 01:36:51

that Moses was in the wilderness we arrive

01:36:51 --> 01:36:55

at the year 577 of the common era

01:36:55 --> 01:36:57

which is just a few years after the

01:36:57 --> 01:36:59

birth of the prophet peace be upon him

01:36:59 --> 01:37:02

now subhanallah now we don't know for a

01:37:02 --> 01:37:06

fact if this is what the Jews relied

01:37:06 --> 01:37:10

upon but hey this is a text that

01:37:10 --> 01:37:13

was Jewish that does give you a date

01:37:13 --> 01:37:19

that fits in with the timeline and yeah

01:37:19 --> 01:37:23

and again these Jews knew when this prophet

01:37:23 --> 01:37:28

would come and subhanallah and what's interesting is

01:37:28 --> 01:37:30

that you know you rely on biblical scholarship

01:37:30 --> 01:37:32

you're not making this up it's not a

01:37:32 --> 01:37:36

kind of a mathematical gymnastics that you're doing

01:37:36 --> 01:37:40

because yeah it's understood by biblical scholars as

01:37:40 --> 01:37:41

7 years which you said is a year

01:37:41 --> 01:37:47

week so 7 times 250 is 1750 and

01:37:47 --> 01:37:49

if you look at the time of you

01:37:49 --> 01:37:51

know around the death of Moses peace be

01:37:51 --> 01:37:54

upon and if you were to argue that

01:37:54 --> 01:37:57

Ramses the second was the pharaoh of Moses

01:37:57 --> 01:38:01

was pharaoh he died around 1213 BCE add

01:38:01 --> 01:38:05

40 years to that date then you have

01:38:06 --> 01:38:10

1173 BCE and if you add 1750 years

01:38:10 --> 01:38:12

which is the 250 times 7 then you

01:38:12 --> 01:38:14

have just a few years after the birth

01:38:14 --> 01:38:17

of the prophet which is phenomenal when I

01:38:17 --> 01:38:19

saw this it was like wow that's just

01:38:19 --> 01:38:21

amazing and again just to retrain what we

01:38:21 --> 01:38:24

said in the beginning about theological backdrop these

01:38:24 --> 01:38:31

things they're simple they're conversational they're kind of

01:38:31 --> 01:39:04

indirect arguments as well which sometimes liberals

01:39:04 --> 01:39:07

and modernists advocate no but in a true

01:39:07 --> 01:39:11

sense that Islam generally speaking doesn't have a

01:39:11 --> 01:39:12

monopoly on the truth from the point of

01:39:12 --> 01:39:16

view that we believe tawheed affirming the oneness

01:39:16 --> 01:39:18

of Allah was from the very beginning of

01:39:18 --> 01:39:23

mankind from Adam to affirm his oneness and

01:39:23 --> 01:39:26

also you know the key mouse on all

01:39:26 --> 01:39:31

of this was Ibrahim on the straight path

01:39:31 --> 01:39:35

you know shunning the idols affirming the oneness

01:39:35 --> 01:39:37

and worship of Allah that he is the

01:39:37 --> 01:39:39

king of all kings and must be adored

01:39:39 --> 01:39:42

and must be humble to him and must

01:39:42 --> 01:39:44

serve him and direct all acts of worship

01:39:44 --> 01:39:48

to him that is the story that is

01:39:48 --> 01:39:53

the perennial truth Islam came to actually remind

01:39:53 --> 01:39:55

people about that and to fix the distortions

01:39:55 --> 01:39:58

of the people of the past in other

01:39:58 --> 01:40:00

words the Christians and the Jews and this

01:40:00 --> 01:40:03

links to that especially in the western context

01:40:03 --> 01:40:04

you know a lot of people even though

01:40:04 --> 01:40:07

they're very secular and they may be kind

01:40:07 --> 01:40:09

of atheistic they still have a connection to

01:40:09 --> 01:40:13

things like Jesus Adam Abraham it's part of

01:40:13 --> 01:40:18

the western judo Christian kind of narrative and

01:40:18 --> 01:40:21

this is an interesting kind of intersection if

01:40:21 --> 01:40:24

you like to that obviously there's more we

01:40:24 --> 01:40:26

could cite from the Quran and so on

01:40:26 --> 01:40:28

and so forth concerning this connection but this

01:40:28 --> 01:40:31

is an interesting way as well it's quite

01:40:31 --> 01:40:34

like you could connect it to the divine

01:40:34 --> 01:40:36

story connect it to the fact that Allah

01:40:36 --> 01:40:43

has revealed this similar message to mankind and

01:40:43 --> 01:40:46

you know us humans messed it up in

01:40:46 --> 01:40:49

the form of the Jewish tradition the Christian

01:40:49 --> 01:40:51

tradition the distortion and so on and so

01:40:51 --> 01:40:54

forth and the Quran is the final proclamation

01:40:54 --> 01:40:58

the final testament the Quran is you know

01:41:00 --> 01:41:03

the final awakening for all of us to

01:41:03 --> 01:41:06

make us realize that you know we have

01:41:06 --> 01:41:07

a purpose and that is to worship Allah

01:41:07 --> 01:41:10

and affirm his oneness and to connect to

01:41:10 --> 01:41:12

him and the Prophet is key to that

01:41:12 --> 01:41:14

right because without the Prophet you don't have

01:41:14 --> 01:41:17

the Quran right without the Prophet you

01:41:17 --> 01:41:32

don't

01:41:32 --> 01:41:35

have Islam without the Prophet you don't have

01:41:35 --> 01:41:38

affirming the oneness of Allah and being in

01:41:38 --> 01:41:40

a state of being that you worship Allah

01:41:40 --> 01:41:42

that you submit to Allah you can't have

01:41:42 --> 01:41:45

that without the Prophet and the Prophet this

01:41:45 --> 01:41:48

argument is a link to the Abrahamic narrative

01:41:48 --> 01:41:51

the Jews had a prophecy about a prophet

01:41:51 --> 01:41:59

that's going to come isn't this amazing and

01:41:59 --> 01:42:01

then you have these two key tribes that

01:42:01 --> 01:42:03

were actually quite critical to the success of

01:42:03 --> 01:42:09

Islam if you like that actually saw the

01:42:09 --> 01:42:13

Prophet knew that this was the Prophet the

01:42:13 --> 01:42:15

Jews were talking about and obviously you could

01:42:15 --> 01:42:18

also understand that it was also the characteristics

01:42:18 --> 01:42:21

of the Prophet and for them that was

01:42:21 --> 01:42:25

enough and what was interesting it was only

01:42:25 --> 01:42:29

Allah's authority and power that could actually create

01:42:29 --> 01:42:32

that peace why because what did the Jews

01:42:32 --> 01:42:34

say we're going to follow him and we're

01:42:34 --> 01:42:35

going to fight you and we're going to

01:42:35 --> 01:42:38

kill you and this is so interesting because

01:42:38 --> 01:42:41

what does Allah say in the ayah nothing

01:42:42 --> 01:42:44

could have stopped this apart from Allah what

01:42:44 --> 01:42:47

does Allah say in the ayah itself towards

01:42:47 --> 01:42:49

the end I'm just scrolling up on your

01:42:49 --> 01:42:52

book now just to find it again it's

01:42:52 --> 01:42:56

escaped my brain yeah when Allah says he

01:42:56 --> 01:42:59

is the exalted in might and wise right

01:43:00 --> 01:43:02

you know you could have not brought the

01:43:02 --> 01:43:04

hearts together but Allah brought them together indeed

01:43:04 --> 01:43:07

Allah he is exalted in might and wise

01:43:07 --> 01:43:10

which is very interesting because this was like

01:43:10 --> 01:43:13

you know almost a divine indirect divine threat

01:43:13 --> 01:43:15

like you know we're fighting each other but

01:43:15 --> 01:43:19

we don't want to fight Allah so this

01:43:19 --> 01:43:22

is very interesting honestly the reason I've elaborated

01:43:22 --> 01:43:23

on this a little bit because I just

01:43:23 --> 01:43:26

find it very fascinating so many other insights

01:43:26 --> 01:43:29

that we could get from this and yeah

01:43:29 --> 01:43:31

I don't know where else maybe you want

01:43:31 --> 01:43:34

to talk about this particular conversion before we

01:43:34 --> 01:43:37

go to I just want to say I

01:43:37 --> 01:43:39

just want to say I love the Ansar

01:43:39 --> 01:43:43

and I appreciate the Ansar so much and

01:43:43 --> 01:43:46

if you just read the seerah with the

01:43:46 --> 01:43:50

Ansar in mind not with like focusing on

01:43:50 --> 01:43:53

the other aspects of what's happening in the

01:43:53 --> 01:43:55

wars but just like think about what the

01:43:55 --> 01:43:59

Ansar are going through it's just it's so

01:43:59 --> 01:44:04

it's so it's it's it's it's something that

01:44:04 --> 01:44:12

I feel is under um appreciated yeah definitely

01:44:12 --> 01:44:16

underappreciated I think the most touching things in

01:44:16 --> 01:44:18

the seerah the most touching moments in the

01:44:19 --> 01:44:21

seerah are things that are related to the

01:44:21 --> 01:44:24

Ansar which is strange because like they're not

01:44:24 --> 01:44:26

the ones that are being directly oppressed right

01:44:26 --> 01:44:28

by the Meccans you feel like when you

01:44:28 --> 01:44:31

think about oppression you think about um the

01:44:31 --> 01:44:33

Meccans right but the things that the Ansar

01:44:33 --> 01:44:37

go through and the it's just yeah to

01:44:37 --> 01:44:42

me to me it's uh I don't know

01:44:42 --> 01:44:46

I lost for words yeah yeah I can

01:44:46 --> 01:44:48

see that just by people viewing you right

01:44:48 --> 01:44:51

now they're going to be encouraged to go

01:44:51 --> 01:44:56

deeper to go deeper alhamdulillah inshallah inshallah let's

01:44:56 --> 01:44:58

let's go to the third conversion now so

01:44:58 --> 01:45:01

you have basically the conversion of many Meccans

01:45:01 --> 01:45:03

after the battle of Badr yeah and the

01:45:03 --> 01:45:07

key kind of figure in this is Amir

01:45:07 --> 01:45:12

right yeah now tell us the story behind

01:45:12 --> 01:45:14

this and again some of the insights and

01:45:14 --> 01:45:16

lessons that we can learn for contemporary data

01:45:16 --> 01:45:18

I think what we need to be doing

01:45:18 --> 01:45:22

here is I'll share a brief background of

01:45:22 --> 01:45:23

what happened, and then I want your thoughts

01:45:23 --> 01:45:27

on the hikmah being applied in this conversation,

01:45:27 --> 01:45:27

if you don't mind.

01:45:29 --> 01:45:31

Yeah, we could do it together, if I

01:45:31 --> 01:45:32

have insights, I'll share them.

01:45:33 --> 01:45:35

If nothing comes to mind, then...

01:45:35 --> 01:45:35

Inshallah.

01:45:35 --> 01:45:36

I don't mean to put you on the

01:45:36 --> 01:45:38

spot, but the idea is that, what you

01:45:38 --> 01:45:42

said earlier, I'm really interested in getting your

01:45:42 --> 01:45:42

perspective.

01:45:43 --> 01:45:46

So, Umair bin Wahab is someone who takes

01:45:46 --> 01:45:50

part in the Battle of Badr, and Umair

01:45:50 --> 01:45:56

is, he's with the Mushrikeen, and he's got

01:45:56 --> 01:45:58

family members that take part in the battle,

01:45:59 --> 01:46:01

some family members are killed, his son is

01:46:01 --> 01:46:06

taken as a prisoner of war, his uncle,

01:46:07 --> 01:46:12

Umayyah, is killed, Umayyah's son is killed, and

01:46:12 --> 01:46:15

to him, he's just lost everything.

01:46:16 --> 01:46:19

And it's a famous story, what happened with

01:46:19 --> 01:46:22

Umayyah and Safwan, and basically they're having a

01:46:22 --> 01:46:28

conversation in Makkah at the time, and they're

01:46:28 --> 01:46:34

just talking about what they've lost, and lamenting

01:46:34 --> 01:46:39

over their losses, and basically Umayyah says, if

01:46:39 --> 01:46:41

I had someone to take care of my

01:46:41 --> 01:46:42

debts, if I had someone to take care

01:46:42 --> 01:46:44

of my children, I would go up to

01:46:44 --> 01:46:47

him and I would kill him myself, because

01:46:47 --> 01:46:48

I have a reason to go into Medina,

01:46:48 --> 01:46:52

because my son, Wahab, is actually in Medina,

01:46:53 --> 01:46:54

so I have a reason to be there,

01:46:54 --> 01:46:55

and I would go there and I would

01:46:55 --> 01:46:58

assassinate Muhammad, salallahu alayhi wa sallam.

01:46:58 --> 01:47:01

So Safwan takes advantage of this, and he

01:47:01 --> 01:47:06

says, alright, let's do it then, and Umayyah

01:47:06 --> 01:47:10

is like, okay, seriously, yeah, I'm putting up

01:47:10 --> 01:47:12

the money and I'm going to cover your

01:47:12 --> 01:47:14

debts, and Safwan bin Umayyah at the time,

01:47:14 --> 01:47:15

he becomes like the head of the tribe,

01:47:16 --> 01:47:19

and Safwan basically is now a major player,

01:47:19 --> 01:47:21

I'm pretty sure he was a major player

01:47:21 --> 01:47:23

before, but after the death of his father,

01:47:23 --> 01:47:27

he's an even bigger player in Quraysh, and

01:47:27 --> 01:47:31

remember, the heads of Quraysh, they're killed in

01:47:31 --> 01:47:34

the battle of Badr, so Safwan bin Umayyah,

01:47:35 --> 01:47:37

his name reappears in the seerah a bunch

01:47:37 --> 01:47:39

of times later, he's one of the top

01:47:39 --> 01:47:41

guys in Quraysh at the moment.

01:47:42 --> 01:47:47

So Umayyah himself goes into Medina in order

01:47:47 --> 01:47:49

to assassinate the Prophet, peace be upon him,

01:47:50 --> 01:47:53

and when he gets to Medina, first person

01:47:53 --> 01:47:55

who sees him is Umar bin Khattab, and

01:47:55 --> 01:47:59

Umar bin Khattab, his reaction is, this person

01:47:59 --> 01:48:00

is here to kill the Prophet, peace be

01:48:00 --> 01:48:02

upon him, and I mean, you can imagine

01:48:02 --> 01:48:07

how Umar is going to react, and I

01:48:07 --> 01:48:10

think we should look into the text itself

01:48:10 --> 01:48:12

and go through it, how about that, Hamza?

01:48:12 --> 01:48:16

Yeah, so it's actually a beautiful story, because

01:48:16 --> 01:48:19

Umar after, he said like a pig was

01:48:19 --> 01:48:22

more beloved to him than Umar, right?

01:48:22 --> 01:48:25

But after Umar becoming Muslim, he said he

01:48:25 --> 01:48:27

was like more beloved than some of my

01:48:27 --> 01:48:27

family.

01:48:28 --> 01:48:30

Some of my own sons, I believe.

01:48:30 --> 01:48:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah, subhanAllah, so what's interesting is,

01:48:35 --> 01:48:38

you know, as you write here, then Umar

01:48:38 --> 01:48:39

entered upon the Messenger of Allah, peace be

01:48:39 --> 01:48:42

upon him, and said, oh Prophet of Allah,

01:48:42 --> 01:48:45

this is the enemy of Allah, and he's

01:48:45 --> 01:48:47

come displaying his sword, and the person said

01:48:47 --> 01:48:49

bring him to me, and Umar came in

01:48:49 --> 01:48:51

and held his holster, stringing him by the

01:48:51 --> 01:48:54

neck, as you can imagine, dragging him, then

01:48:54 --> 01:48:56

told some men from the Ansar, allow him

01:48:56 --> 01:48:58

to enter upon the Messenger of Allah, peace

01:48:58 --> 01:48:59

be upon him, and sit with him, and

01:48:59 --> 01:49:01

be wary of this wicked person for he's

01:49:01 --> 01:49:01

untrustworthy.

01:49:02 --> 01:49:04

He then entered upon the Messenger of Allah,

01:49:04 --> 01:49:06

peace be upon him, so when the Messenger

01:49:06 --> 01:49:08

of Allah, peace be upon him, saw that

01:49:08 --> 01:49:10

Umar was dragging him with the holster, he

01:49:10 --> 01:49:13

said leave him Umar, come here Umar.

01:49:13 --> 01:49:18

Now, that insight there, psychological insight, this is

01:49:18 --> 01:49:19

a person who wanted to kill the Prophet,

01:49:20 --> 01:49:20

peace be upon him, okay?

01:49:21 --> 01:49:22

And we know later in the story, we

01:49:22 --> 01:49:25

knew, the Prophet knew that he wanted to

01:49:25 --> 01:49:25

kill him.

01:49:26 --> 01:49:29

And he's telling Umar, leave him, he's not

01:49:29 --> 01:49:32

saying, oh you know, just hold him, make

01:49:32 --> 01:49:34

sure, because you know, Umar, what he could

01:49:34 --> 01:49:37

have done is, you know, had hidden a

01:49:37 --> 01:49:38

dagger, right?

01:49:38 --> 01:49:39

Maybe he gave his sword away, but he

01:49:39 --> 01:49:40

had a dagger, and he had poison.

01:49:41 --> 01:49:42

But look what the Prophet of Islam is

01:49:42 --> 01:49:45

doing, the kind of psychology here, almost the

01:49:45 --> 01:49:50

disarming, almost the tawakkul in Allah, almost like,

01:49:51 --> 01:49:52

you know, I'm here to give you something

01:49:52 --> 01:49:55

better, to elevate you, right?

01:49:55 --> 01:49:56

Because I have a view that the Prophet

01:49:56 --> 01:49:57

of Islam, how he used to relate to

01:49:57 --> 01:50:00

people, how he created from them, who created

01:50:00 --> 01:50:02

the most optimal version of people, how he

01:50:02 --> 01:50:04

relates through his language and body language, is

01:50:04 --> 01:50:06

what he creates, which is phenomenal.

01:50:06 --> 01:50:08

We see this with Fadala ibn Umair, for

01:50:08 --> 01:50:11

example, he normally became Muslim and was second,

01:50:11 --> 01:50:13

second ambulating the Kaaba, and wanted to kill

01:50:13 --> 01:50:15

the Prophet of Islam, and what does the

01:50:15 --> 01:50:16

Prophet of Islam say?

01:50:16 --> 01:50:17

This is what you're risking to yourself.

01:50:18 --> 01:50:20

And then he kind of hesitated, and the

01:50:20 --> 01:50:21

Prophet of Islam put his hand on his

01:50:21 --> 01:50:23

heart and said, ask Allah to forgive you,

01:50:24 --> 01:50:26

and then Fadala ibn Umair says, after that

01:50:26 --> 01:50:27

moment, no one was more beloved to me

01:50:27 --> 01:50:28

than the Prophet ﷺ.

01:50:28 --> 01:50:30

So his language and his body language is

01:50:30 --> 01:50:32

such that optimised people.

01:50:33 --> 01:50:34

Similar, this is a similar scenario.

01:50:35 --> 01:50:36

Leave him, Umair.

01:50:36 --> 01:50:37

Come here, Umair.

01:50:38 --> 01:50:38

Right?

01:50:38 --> 01:50:41

So he came close by and said, may

01:50:41 --> 01:50:43

you be blessed in the morning, which was

01:50:43 --> 01:50:45

the greeting of the people of Jahiliyyah.

01:50:45 --> 01:50:47

So Umair said this, may you be blessed

01:50:47 --> 01:50:48

in the morning.

01:50:49 --> 01:50:51

So what is the message of Allah ﷺ?

01:50:52 --> 01:50:56

He said, Allah had granted us a better

01:50:56 --> 01:50:58

greeting than yours, Umair, which is peace.

01:50:59 --> 01:51:03

Think about this, the framing, the psychological, this

01:51:03 --> 01:51:04

is one of the huge responses now, yeah?

01:51:05 --> 01:51:07

The framing, the framing here.

01:51:07 --> 01:51:10

He's come to kill him, and the Prophet

01:51:10 --> 01:51:11

ﷺ is saying, I will go for something

01:51:11 --> 01:51:12

better for you.

01:51:12 --> 01:51:14

It's a better greeting that Allah to us,

01:51:14 --> 01:51:16

which is peace, and that is the dwelling

01:51:16 --> 01:51:17

of the people of paradise.

01:51:18 --> 01:51:20

This is someone who wanted to kill the

01:51:20 --> 01:51:24

Prophet ﷺ, and look at the response to

01:51:24 --> 01:51:25

the greeting.

01:51:26 --> 01:51:28

Now the Prophet ﷺ could have said, okay,

01:51:29 --> 01:51:31

you know, thank you for your greeting.

01:51:32 --> 01:51:33

What are you doing?

01:51:33 --> 01:51:34

Why do you want to kill me?

01:51:34 --> 01:51:34

What's going on?

01:51:34 --> 01:51:38

But look at the psychological, emotional intelligence here.

01:51:39 --> 01:51:41

Allah has granted us a better greeting than

01:51:41 --> 01:51:44

yours, Umair, which is peace, salaam.

01:51:45 --> 01:51:48

And this is the greeting of the dwellings

01:51:48 --> 01:51:48

of paradise.

01:51:49 --> 01:51:51

And then he said, Umair said, O Muhammad,

01:51:51 --> 01:51:56

by Allah, you are greeting until only recently.

01:51:57 --> 01:52:00

Then he said, what is with the sword

01:52:00 --> 01:52:01

on your neck?

01:52:01 --> 01:52:03

And he said, may Allah ruin these swords,

01:52:04 --> 01:52:06

have they benefit us in any way?

01:52:07 --> 01:52:09

And then he said, be truthful with me,

01:52:09 --> 01:52:10

what brings you here?

01:52:10 --> 01:52:14

Then he said, I only came for that,

01:52:15 --> 01:52:15

right?

01:52:16 --> 01:52:17

So from what I understand here, he only

01:52:17 --> 01:52:21

came to actually use the sword, right?

01:52:22 --> 01:52:24

I think it was, I think it was,

01:52:25 --> 01:52:30

I think, yeah, that is actually, so check

01:52:30 --> 01:52:31

out the footnotes.

01:52:33 --> 01:52:36

In Marj al-Tabarani, it said, I came

01:52:36 --> 01:52:37

for my captive.

01:52:38 --> 01:52:39

Yeah, it says, I came for my captive,

01:52:39 --> 01:52:42

so allow me to meet him for your

01:52:42 --> 01:52:44

family.

01:52:44 --> 01:52:45

Okay, Alhamdulillah, so it had nothing to do

01:52:45 --> 01:52:46

with the swords.

01:52:46 --> 01:52:47

So it was to do with the fact

01:52:47 --> 01:52:49

that he came for his captive.

01:52:49 --> 01:52:52

Okay, now, so he could meet his son,

01:52:52 --> 01:52:52

I believe, right?

01:52:53 --> 01:52:53

Yeah.

01:52:54 --> 01:52:54

Brilliant.

01:52:55 --> 01:52:55

Yeah.

01:52:55 --> 01:52:55

Yeah.

01:52:56 --> 01:52:58

So he's not actually revealing the truth, the

01:52:58 --> 01:53:02

truthfulness of why he came, you know, why

01:53:02 --> 01:53:05

he came to the Prophet, because he knew

01:53:05 --> 01:53:06

to come kill him.

01:53:07 --> 01:53:10

What does the Prophet ﷺ say?

01:53:10 --> 01:53:14

He actually narrates the exact conversation, the private

01:53:14 --> 01:53:18

conversation that Safwan actually made an oath not

01:53:18 --> 01:53:23

to reveal, and he narrated that private conversation.

01:53:23 --> 01:53:25

As it says here, rather you sat with

01:53:25 --> 01:53:30

Safwan, spoke about the deceased from Quraysh and

01:53:30 --> 01:53:33

were put into the well, then you said,

01:53:33 --> 01:53:35

if only I didn't have a debt to

01:53:35 --> 01:53:37

pay all my children, I'll go out to

01:53:37 --> 01:53:38

kill Muhammad.

01:53:38 --> 01:53:40

Safwan then agreed to take care of your

01:53:40 --> 01:53:42

debts and your children as a compensation for

01:53:42 --> 01:53:44

killing me, which Allah prevents.

01:53:45 --> 01:53:48

And then Umar says, you know, you're speaking

01:53:48 --> 01:53:49

the truth.

01:53:49 --> 01:53:53

And he basically testified that that's a very

01:53:53 --> 01:53:56

important way, Hamza, where Rasul Allah ﷺ says,

01:53:56 --> 01:53:57

which Allah prevents.

01:53:58 --> 01:54:00

Yes, that's, that's a very important one, that

01:54:00 --> 01:54:04

specific sentence, pointing out that this is like

01:54:04 --> 01:54:06

an actual impossibility.

01:54:06 --> 01:54:08

I think that's a part of the hikmah

01:54:08 --> 01:54:08

here.

01:54:09 --> 01:54:10

Yes, yes, of course.

01:54:11 --> 01:54:13

And it's to show that, you know, Allah

01:54:13 --> 01:54:16

inspired the Prophet ﷺ with this knowledge, right?

01:54:16 --> 01:54:17

Yeah, yeah.

01:54:17 --> 01:54:20

And it's Allah that is preventing this, this

01:54:20 --> 01:54:21

killing from happening.

01:54:21 --> 01:54:24

And it actually echoes the psychology of the

01:54:24 --> 01:54:25

Prophet ﷺ, right?

01:54:26 --> 01:54:29

Because Amr, leave him alone, bring him here,

01:54:29 --> 01:54:29

right?

01:54:29 --> 01:54:31

Even though I know he wants to come

01:54:31 --> 01:54:34

and kill me, we don't need your backup.

01:54:35 --> 01:54:36

Allah is with us, right?

01:54:36 --> 01:54:38

Allah is dealing with this, Allah is preventing

01:54:38 --> 01:54:38

this.

01:54:39 --> 01:54:41

So it's not like a made up narrative,

01:54:41 --> 01:54:41

right?

01:54:42 --> 01:54:45

It's like from the psychological state is already

01:54:45 --> 01:54:47

there, the psychological linguistic framing is already there.

01:54:48 --> 01:54:49

Even when he says, I have a better,

01:54:50 --> 01:54:52

we have been taught a better greeting than

01:54:52 --> 01:54:53

you, right?

01:54:53 --> 01:54:54

Salaam, peace, right?

01:54:55 --> 01:54:59

And so this is, this is actually phenomenal.

01:54:59 --> 01:55:02

And so Amr basically says the Prophet ﷺ

01:55:02 --> 01:55:04

wasn't there, how could he have ever known,

01:55:04 --> 01:55:05

right?

01:55:05 --> 01:55:07

It's impossible for him to have known.

01:55:07 --> 01:55:09

So this means this is from Allah ﷻ.

01:55:10 --> 01:55:11

I affirm that there is no deity worthy

01:55:11 --> 01:55:14

of worship except Allah, and I affirm that

01:55:14 --> 01:55:15

the Prophet ﷺ is the final Prophet, is

01:55:15 --> 01:55:16

the Messenger of Allah.

01:55:17 --> 01:55:20

And this is how Amr became Muslim.

01:55:20 --> 01:55:22

But obviously, there's more to it than that.

01:55:23 --> 01:55:26

Because you're connecting the conversion of Amr, which

01:55:26 --> 01:55:28

by the way you say he was from

01:55:28 --> 01:55:30

a noble family or notable family.

01:55:30 --> 01:55:33

He was the son of the tribal leader

01:55:33 --> 01:55:36

of Banu Jumah, I believe, yeah.

01:55:36 --> 01:55:38

And so he was he was he was

01:55:38 --> 01:55:41

quite, you know, influential.

01:55:41 --> 01:55:44

So how, if you could tell us, his

01:55:44 --> 01:55:47

influence now made many Meccans become Muslim.

01:55:49 --> 01:55:51

So I don't recall, I'm not really sure

01:55:51 --> 01:55:55

if his father was the leader of Jumah.

01:55:55 --> 01:55:59

I'm not sure if I came across that.

01:55:59 --> 01:56:02

His uncle definitely was.

01:56:02 --> 01:56:04

I probably misread it.

01:56:04 --> 01:56:06

But he was a notable figure within that.

01:56:06 --> 01:56:08

Of course, of course.

01:56:08 --> 01:56:10

Without a doubt, without a doubt, he was

01:56:10 --> 01:56:11

a notable figure.

01:56:11 --> 01:56:16

And him having everything to lose, or excuse

01:56:16 --> 01:56:18

me, him actually losing everything and him going

01:56:18 --> 01:56:24

on this sacrificial mission where he's going to

01:56:24 --> 01:56:27

assassinate the Prophet, peace be upon him, and

01:56:27 --> 01:56:28

naturally get killed right after.

01:56:28 --> 01:56:30

And then all of a sudden, he comes

01:56:30 --> 01:56:31

back to Meccans like, okay, guys, listen, I'm

01:56:31 --> 01:56:32

Muslim.

01:56:32 --> 01:56:36

And that's not a natural thing for him

01:56:36 --> 01:56:37

to do.

01:56:39 --> 01:56:41

And then he just tells the people what

01:56:41 --> 01:56:42

exactly happened.

01:56:43 --> 01:56:45

And you simply had a lot of people

01:56:45 --> 01:56:49

converting to Islam because of that reason.

01:56:50 --> 01:56:51

It's very straightforward.

01:56:52 --> 01:56:54

Yeah, but this is the insight in contemporary

01:56:54 --> 01:56:58

Dawa, I believe, and you've highlighted here, yes,

01:56:58 --> 01:57:00

you've written, you said, the police of Mecca

01:57:00 --> 01:57:04

didn't share his experience, but his testament that

01:57:04 --> 01:57:07

he knew his private discussion with Safwan was

01:57:07 --> 01:57:08

sufficient for many of them.

01:57:09 --> 01:57:09

Why?

01:57:09 --> 01:57:11

And this is a key point, as there

01:57:11 --> 01:57:14

was no other justification for the sudden change

01:57:14 --> 01:57:16

in his worldview, apart from the truth that

01:57:16 --> 01:57:17

he presented to them.

01:57:18 --> 01:57:21

And obviously, they listened to him because he

01:57:21 --> 01:57:22

was a notable figure.

01:57:22 --> 01:57:25

So there's two things that we need to

01:57:25 --> 01:57:25

unpack here.

01:57:26 --> 01:57:28

The first thing is, or at least one

01:57:28 --> 01:57:31

main thing in the Dawa, we neglect giving

01:57:31 --> 01:57:33

Dawa to influentials.

01:57:33 --> 01:57:35

Because, you know, the title of this section

01:57:35 --> 01:57:38

is that many Meccans became Muslim as a

01:57:38 --> 01:57:40

result of one notable person becoming Muslim, right?

01:57:41 --> 01:57:44

So sometimes what we fail to do sometimes

01:57:44 --> 01:57:46

is we like the numbers, right?

01:57:46 --> 01:57:50

But we forget the influentials that can bring

01:57:50 --> 01:57:51

more numbers, right?

01:57:52 --> 01:57:53

And I think we need to be more

01:57:53 --> 01:57:56

strategic in our thinking in the Dawa, which

01:57:56 --> 01:57:59

is very interesting because Ibn Hazm, he talks

01:57:59 --> 01:58:01

about three types of struggle of Jihad.

01:58:02 --> 01:58:04

And he talks about the physical Jihad, he

01:58:04 --> 01:58:08

talks about Jihadan Kabira, if you like, in

01:58:08 --> 01:58:10

Surah Ruqan, verse 52, I believe, when Allah

01:58:10 --> 01:58:14

says, Do struggle bihi, with it, with the

01:58:14 --> 01:58:17

Qur'an, Jihadan Kabira, a great striving, bihi,

01:58:17 --> 01:58:19

with it means the Qur'an itself, use

01:58:19 --> 01:58:20

the arguments of the Qur'an.

01:58:21 --> 01:58:22

And then the other form of Jihad is

01:58:22 --> 01:58:25

strategic thinking in times of danger.

01:58:25 --> 01:58:28

And Ibn Hazm says, the two main forms

01:58:28 --> 01:58:30

of struggle wasn't actually physical.

01:58:30 --> 01:58:32

And he's not belittling it, he's just saying,

01:58:32 --> 01:58:33

if you look at the seerah, because many

01:58:33 --> 01:58:35

of the battles, the person didn't engage in

01:58:35 --> 01:58:36

himself, he actually delegated that authority.

01:58:37 --> 01:58:39

But the person was always giving it was

01:58:39 --> 01:58:41

many times majority of time giving Dawah with

01:58:41 --> 01:58:43

the Qur'an using the arguments of the

01:58:43 --> 01:58:46

Qur'an and strategic thinking in times of

01:58:46 --> 01:58:46

danger.

01:58:46 --> 01:58:49

Now, if we could project this to the

01:58:49 --> 01:58:53

universal of strategic thinking, we neglect this in

01:58:53 --> 01:58:55

the Dawa a lot, what benefits the Dawa,

01:58:55 --> 01:58:58

not my brand, the individual or just online,

01:58:58 --> 01:59:00

but the Dawa in general?

01:59:00 --> 01:59:02

You know, I haven't seen a strategic paper,

01:59:03 --> 01:59:04

I haven't seen a white paper, I haven't

01:59:04 --> 01:59:07

seen brothers and mashayekh come together in my

01:59:07 --> 01:59:09

view, yeah, maybe it happens.

01:59:09 --> 01:59:11

But where are we going with this Dawa

01:59:11 --> 01:59:12

in the next 5, 10, 15 years?

01:59:13 --> 01:59:14

You know, have we got a list of

01:59:14 --> 01:59:17

the key influentials, which don't have to be

01:59:17 --> 01:59:20

like online influences, that's, you know, a bit

01:59:20 --> 01:59:22

shallow, to be honest, it could be other

01:59:22 --> 01:59:24

types of influence, whether in different domains, like

01:59:24 --> 01:59:28

politics, sports, psychology, academia, have we done an

01:59:28 --> 01:59:31

analysis of this particular domain, right?

01:59:31 --> 01:59:32

Where a lot of brothers get involved in

01:59:32 --> 01:59:35

academia, they just get lost in academia, and

01:59:35 --> 01:59:37

they start writing books that only five people

01:59:37 --> 01:59:38

read, and they tap themselves on the back.

01:59:39 --> 01:59:40

Where's the Allah-centric vision?

01:59:40 --> 01:59:41

Where are you thinking?

01:59:41 --> 01:59:44

Who are the main key influentials in academia

01:59:44 --> 01:59:46

that if I have dinner with, I have

01:59:46 --> 01:59:48

conversations with, you know, there's a lot of

01:59:48 --> 01:59:50

background work that we have to do with

01:59:50 --> 01:59:52

these people to develop trust, right?

01:59:52 --> 01:59:55

And this for me, and may Allah bless

01:59:55 --> 01:59:57

you for writing this book, brings that insight

01:59:57 --> 02:00:01

in a contemporary way, that, you know, if

02:00:01 --> 02:00:04

a key reason for many Meccans becoming Muslim

02:00:04 --> 02:00:07

because of a notable figure and influential, and

02:00:07 --> 02:00:09

one of those, and that reason was because

02:00:09 --> 02:00:12

Allah gave an insight to the Prophet ﷺ

02:00:12 --> 02:00:14

that he couldn't have access to himself, which

02:00:14 --> 02:00:15

proved his prophethood.

02:00:16 --> 02:00:18

But the kind of method here is important,

02:00:18 --> 02:00:21

which is the notable person himself becoming Muslim.

02:00:21 --> 02:00:24

So that should give us a strategic insight

02:00:24 --> 02:00:26

that we need to start thinking about that

02:00:26 --> 02:00:28

a little bit more seriously in different domains

02:00:28 --> 02:00:30

that we're engaged in, whether it's academia, whether

02:00:30 --> 02:00:33

it's online, whether it's sports, whether it's politics.

02:00:33 --> 02:00:35

And that means it requires an effective method

02:00:35 --> 02:00:37

using hikmah, as we discussed before.

02:00:37 --> 02:00:39

That means we may have to spend a

02:00:39 --> 02:00:42

lot of time actually developing good relationships with

02:00:42 --> 02:00:43

people.

02:00:43 --> 02:00:44

It's not just like, you know, here's a

02:00:44 --> 02:00:44

video.

02:00:45 --> 02:00:47

You know, sometimes we have these videos from

02:00:47 --> 02:00:50

some brothers, my message to so-and-so.

02:00:50 --> 02:00:52

To be honest, that can work, but I

02:00:52 --> 02:00:55

just find it, it's not well thought out.

02:00:55 --> 02:00:57

What's much better is that we sit down

02:00:57 --> 02:00:59

and we have dinner with people.

02:00:59 --> 02:01:00

People don't have to know.

02:01:00 --> 02:01:02

You create that long-term relationship with someone

02:01:02 --> 02:01:05

in order to try and establish, you know,

02:01:05 --> 02:01:07

an effective relation, because if they don't trust

02:01:07 --> 02:01:08

you, they're not going to accept what you're

02:01:08 --> 02:01:10

saying, irrespective if you're famous, right?

02:01:11 --> 02:01:14

I think it does happen, but perhaps not

02:01:14 --> 02:01:16

in a very strategic way.

02:01:16 --> 02:01:21

But you see someone influential, and they seem

02:01:21 --> 02:01:25

to be open to a conversation, and you

02:01:25 --> 02:01:26

see a lot of people pounce on that.

02:01:28 --> 02:01:33

Not, again, nothing strategic on paper, but it

02:01:33 --> 02:01:34

does happen to a degree.

02:01:35 --> 02:01:36

Yeah, yeah.

02:01:36 --> 02:01:39

Yeah, maybe, maybe in the online world, but

02:01:39 --> 02:01:42

in terms of making it a main focus,

02:01:42 --> 02:01:45

I've been involved in organizations, I have connections

02:01:45 --> 02:01:47

with different leaders of organizations.

02:01:48 --> 02:01:53

The kind of influential dower, influencer dower is

02:01:53 --> 02:01:55

not as focused upon, I think, because I

02:01:55 --> 02:01:58

think one reason is economical and practical, because

02:01:58 --> 02:02:01

in order for organizations to sustain themselves, they

02:02:01 --> 02:02:03

need actually money, right?

02:02:03 --> 02:02:04

In order for that to happen, they have

02:02:04 --> 02:02:05

to actually show that they're doing a lot

02:02:05 --> 02:02:07

of work, and the kind of strategic, influential

02:02:07 --> 02:02:10

stuff, it's not very marketing.

02:02:12 --> 02:02:13

Sorry for the use of this word, I

02:02:13 --> 02:02:14

can't think of anything else.

02:02:14 --> 02:02:17

It's not sexy enough from a marketing perspective,

02:02:17 --> 02:02:17

yeah?

02:02:17 --> 02:02:18

So they're not going to be like, oh,

02:02:19 --> 02:02:20

yeah, you know, let's, because you have to

02:02:20 --> 02:02:23

start convincing people why this is important and

02:02:23 --> 02:02:24

this is needed, right?

02:02:24 --> 02:02:26

So there are practical reasons for it.

02:02:27 --> 02:02:28

But I don't think it's happening on a

02:02:28 --> 02:02:30

level that it should be, you know?

02:02:30 --> 02:02:31

It should be.

02:02:31 --> 02:02:32

Do you know what I mean?

02:02:33 --> 02:02:34

All right, good.

02:02:35 --> 02:02:37

So the final main question, and then after,

02:02:37 --> 02:02:38

you could talk to us about where you

02:02:38 --> 02:02:40

could find the book and any future projects

02:02:40 --> 02:02:41

that you have.

02:02:41 --> 02:02:43

And obviously, in the video, I'm going to

02:02:43 --> 02:02:45

tell them where to find you on Twitter,

02:02:45 --> 02:02:47

on X, and where to find you on

02:02:47 --> 02:02:47

YouTube.

02:02:48 --> 02:02:52

So the final main question is the insights

02:02:52 --> 02:02:59

to the fourth conversion story, which many Muslims,

02:02:59 --> 02:03:02

many Sahaba became Muslim, which was the prophecy,

02:03:03 --> 02:03:05

the prophecy in the Qur'an itself.

02:03:06 --> 02:03:08

And so talk to us about that, the

02:03:08 --> 02:03:11

prophecy in Qur'an 30 verses 2 to

02:03:11 --> 02:03:11

4.

02:03:12 --> 02:03:14

The Romans have been defeated in the nearest

02:03:14 --> 02:03:17

land, and after the defeat, they will be

02:03:17 --> 02:03:18

victorious within a few years.

02:03:18 --> 02:03:20

So bismillah, talk to us about this.

02:03:21 --> 02:03:25

So what initially got me curious about that

02:03:25 --> 02:03:26

one is I read the book on the

02:03:26 --> 02:03:30

Proofs of Prophethood by, mashaAllah, a well-established

02:03:30 --> 02:03:31

author.

02:03:31 --> 02:03:34

And he wrote something along the lines of,

02:03:34 --> 02:03:38

this prophecy came to pass in either the

02:03:38 --> 02:03:45

year 621, or not, 623 or 628.

02:03:45 --> 02:03:48

He said 623 or 628.

02:03:49 --> 02:03:51

And I was like, we don't know when

02:03:51 --> 02:03:52

this happened.

02:03:52 --> 02:03:55

And I was, I was, I'm like, I'm

02:03:55 --> 02:03:57

like, I know this happened.

02:03:57 --> 02:03:58

There's no doubt it happened.

02:03:59 --> 02:04:00

But what happened?

02:04:00 --> 02:04:01

We don't know the dates.

02:04:02 --> 02:04:04

And that's what got me looking into it.

02:04:04 --> 02:04:07

And so what I did was I picked

02:04:07 --> 02:04:11

up all the earliest Western sources that speak

02:04:11 --> 02:04:18

about the battles, the war, and I started

02:04:18 --> 02:04:22

researching that until I came to this conclusion

02:04:22 --> 02:04:24

that the year 628 is the correct year.

02:04:25 --> 02:04:28

And for some reason, you have, you have

02:04:28 --> 02:04:32

like this, this modern, like, nowadays, a lot

02:04:32 --> 02:04:35

of people say 623 for some reason, they

02:04:35 --> 02:04:37

match it up with the Battle of Badr.

02:04:38 --> 02:04:42

And it's based on a statement by Sufyan

02:04:42 --> 02:04:46

al-Thawri where he says that, we heard

02:04:46 --> 02:04:49

that this happened in the Battle of Badr.

02:04:49 --> 02:04:50

He doesn't provide a source.

02:04:50 --> 02:04:52

He just says, we heard this happens then.

02:04:52 --> 02:04:54

And they rely on this hadith by Abu

02:04:54 --> 02:04:57

Sa'id, not even Abu Sa'id al

02:04:57 --> 02:04:59

-Khudri, but Abu Sa'id Muhammad bin Thabit

02:04:59 --> 02:04:59

al-Kalbi.

02:05:00 --> 02:05:05

Completely the most weird, the weirdest hadith, which

02:05:05 --> 02:05:07

doesn't even fit in with a prophecy in

02:05:07 --> 02:05:07

the first place.

02:05:08 --> 02:05:09

But that's a long story.

02:05:10 --> 02:05:14

And the reality is, you have all these

02:05:14 --> 02:05:17

Tabi'in, and you have a companion.

02:05:18 --> 02:05:21

And when you go through the dates that

02:05:21 --> 02:05:24

they provide, 628 is the correct year.

02:05:24 --> 02:05:27

That's the actual year that the war ends.

02:05:27 --> 02:05:29

That's the year the war ends, guys.

02:05:29 --> 02:05:33

And so like, what's up with all the

02:05:33 --> 02:05:34

confusion?

02:05:35 --> 02:05:38

And the war, and for some reason, people,

02:05:39 --> 02:05:42

when talking about the battles between the Romans

02:05:42 --> 02:05:46

and the Persians, for some reason, you have

02:05:46 --> 02:05:49

people trying to find the specific battle, which

02:05:49 --> 02:05:51

was the battle in which the Romans defeated

02:05:51 --> 02:05:51

the Persians.

02:05:51 --> 02:05:52

Happens all the time.

02:05:53 --> 02:05:55

People win and lose battles all the time.

02:05:55 --> 02:05:57

Speaking about the war, the prophecy is about

02:05:57 --> 02:05:59

the war, and the war specifically as a

02:05:59 --> 02:06:00

whole ending.

02:06:01 --> 02:06:03

Because it's not much of a prophecy if

02:06:03 --> 02:06:05

you say someone's going to win a battle.

02:06:06 --> 02:06:08

People win and lose battles all the time.

02:06:08 --> 02:06:10

It's about the war in itself.

02:06:10 --> 02:06:12

That's why it's a big deal.

02:06:13 --> 02:06:19

So when the prophecy was made, that was

02:06:19 --> 02:06:20

it for the Romans.

02:06:20 --> 02:06:22

Everyone thought that was it for the Byzantine

02:06:22 --> 02:06:23

Empire.

02:06:23 --> 02:06:26

They thought that it was no longer going

02:06:26 --> 02:06:27

to exist.

02:06:27 --> 02:06:30

They lost the majority of their territory.

02:06:30 --> 02:06:31

They were cut off from Africa.

02:06:31 --> 02:06:34

They didn't have access to the wealth from

02:06:34 --> 02:06:35

Africa at the time.

02:06:36 --> 02:06:39

Egypt was very rich in Africa as a

02:06:39 --> 02:06:39

whole.

02:06:39 --> 02:06:41

Northern Africa was booming.

02:06:41 --> 02:06:43

And when they got cut off of that,

02:06:43 --> 02:06:45

that was it for them.

02:06:45 --> 02:06:48

And then the Romans, they were, for some

02:06:48 --> 02:06:50

reason, going to war with two fronts.

02:06:50 --> 02:06:53

They were fighting the Avars in the west,

02:06:53 --> 02:06:55

and then they're fighting the Persians in the

02:06:55 --> 02:06:55

east.

02:06:56 --> 02:06:57

And the Persians, they got all the way

02:06:57 --> 02:06:59

to modern-day Turkey.

02:06:59 --> 02:07:01

And they actually got all the way into

02:07:01 --> 02:07:03

Istanbul, Constantinople at the time.

02:07:03 --> 02:07:09

In the year 626, they actually besieged the

02:07:09 --> 02:07:09

city.

02:07:09 --> 02:07:12

And again, from both sides, the Persians and

02:07:12 --> 02:07:13

the Avars.

02:07:14 --> 02:07:15

It's crazy.

02:07:16 --> 02:07:17

And two years after that, they win the

02:07:17 --> 02:07:18

war.

02:07:19 --> 02:07:26

And the problem is, subhanAllah, when we read

02:07:26 --> 02:07:32

the verses, and the average Muslim who reads

02:07:32 --> 02:07:34

the verses is familiar with this idea of

02:07:34 --> 02:07:37

this prophecy coming to pass, they think it's

02:07:37 --> 02:07:40

simply a matter of two biggest armies in

02:07:40 --> 02:07:43

the two biggest empires.

02:07:43 --> 02:07:46

One beats the other in a battle, and

02:07:46 --> 02:07:48

then the other beats the first one in

02:07:48 --> 02:07:49

the battle.

02:07:49 --> 02:07:50

And that's it.

02:07:51 --> 02:07:52

That's the prophecy.

02:07:52 --> 02:07:53

They think that's it.

02:07:54 --> 02:07:54

No, no.

02:07:54 --> 02:07:57

It's, as Edward Gibbon puts it, at a

02:07:57 --> 02:07:59

time in which this prophecy is said to

02:07:59 --> 02:08:01

have happened, he says, his words, is said

02:08:01 --> 02:08:03

to have happened, did happen.

02:08:04 --> 02:08:09

There was nothing further from occurring than that.

02:08:09 --> 02:08:11

It is something that could not have been

02:08:11 --> 02:08:12

foreseen.

02:08:13 --> 02:08:16

And Niyar ibn Mukram, who's a companion of

02:08:16 --> 02:08:17

the Prophet, peace be upon him, he's, I

02:08:17 --> 02:08:18

believe, he's an Aslami.

02:08:19 --> 02:08:21

He, from a tribe of Aslam, which is

02:08:21 --> 02:08:24

the sister tribe of Ghaffar, or an ally

02:08:24 --> 02:08:28

of Ghaffar, he says that that's, yeah, they

02:08:28 --> 02:08:30

have hordes of people converting because of that.

02:08:31 --> 02:08:33

Because something that no one could foresee happening.

02:08:34 --> 02:08:35

And Muhammad, peace be upon him, not only

02:08:35 --> 02:08:38

is he saying that it's going to happen,

02:08:38 --> 02:08:39

but he puts a time limit.

02:08:41 --> 02:08:44

So it's a very dangerous, very dangerous prophecy

02:08:44 --> 02:08:45

to make.

02:08:45 --> 02:08:46

Because if you put in the time limit,

02:08:47 --> 02:08:49

you see, if you leave it open, it's

02:08:49 --> 02:08:49

something else.

02:08:49 --> 02:08:51

But you put a time limit, halas, people

02:08:51 --> 02:08:53

are just waiting for it to happen in

02:08:53 --> 02:08:53

a few years.

02:08:54 --> 02:08:55

Halas, you're going to, it's going to fail.

02:08:55 --> 02:08:56

And that's it for you.

02:08:56 --> 02:08:58

That's it for your religion.

02:08:58 --> 02:09:00

That's it for all that time that you

02:09:00 --> 02:09:03

put in, all the suppression, all this patience.

02:09:03 --> 02:09:04

It's all going to go down the drain,

02:09:04 --> 02:09:06

because you put a time limit.

02:09:06 --> 02:09:08

It's a huge mistake to make, to put

02:09:08 --> 02:09:10

a time limit, which is why Mirza Ghulam

02:09:10 --> 02:09:14

Ahmad, his prophecies backfired, because he put time

02:09:14 --> 02:09:16

limits, and he got exposed for it badly.

02:09:17 --> 02:09:19

And we keep on using these arguments against

02:09:19 --> 02:09:19

him.

02:09:20 --> 02:09:20

Yeah, absolutely.

02:09:21 --> 02:09:24

And what's very interesting is you providing the

02:09:24 --> 02:09:27

historical context of this conversion, because sometimes when

02:09:27 --> 02:09:30

people just read those verses, like, okay, great,

02:09:30 --> 02:09:30

it's a prophecy.

02:09:31 --> 02:09:33

But when you explain that many people became

02:09:33 --> 02:09:35

Muslim as a result, and you look at

02:09:35 --> 02:09:44

the kind of geopolitical, strategic, geographical, and

02:09:44 --> 02:09:48

context, the people who became Muslim as a

02:09:48 --> 02:09:51

result of that prophecy, it's like they were

02:09:51 --> 02:09:52

living that prophecy.

02:09:52 --> 02:09:54

They're saying, look, we know this is like,

02:09:54 --> 02:09:55

you know, if you would toss a coin,

02:09:55 --> 02:09:57

we wouldn't know if it's head or tails.

02:09:57 --> 02:10:00

And this has come to us left field,

02:10:00 --> 02:10:03

because we know the kind of cultural, historical,

02:10:04 --> 02:10:09

technical, technological, at that time, geopolitical goings on.

02:10:09 --> 02:10:11

And we're thinking, how on earth can this

02:10:11 --> 02:10:13

prophecy be true?

02:10:14 --> 02:10:16

And this is a very unique thing of

02:10:16 --> 02:10:20

explaining the prophecies in the correct academic historical

02:10:20 --> 02:10:22

context, which you do very well when you

02:10:22 --> 02:10:25

cite historians, and you give us some nice

02:10:25 --> 02:10:26

pictures as well.

02:10:26 --> 02:10:29

And you cite, you know, history and the

02:10:29 --> 02:10:33

Chronicles of Theophanes, and the Chronicle of John,

02:10:33 --> 02:10:35

and about Heraclius, and so on and so

02:10:35 --> 02:10:36

forth.

02:10:36 --> 02:10:40

But you're actually showing the real life effect.

02:10:40 --> 02:10:42

It's like, for example, someone says, you know,

02:10:42 --> 02:10:45

200 years ago, some guy did this, and

02:10:45 --> 02:10:46

there you go.

02:10:46 --> 02:10:48

It's an interesting story.

02:10:49 --> 02:10:50

And that's different.

02:10:51 --> 02:10:54

You know, if you either lived in that

02:10:54 --> 02:10:56

moment, or you had acts to testimonies of

02:10:56 --> 02:11:02

people explaining the impact and the geopolitical context

02:11:02 --> 02:11:05

and the impossibility of that thing happening, that's

02:11:05 --> 02:11:08

a different fleshing out of the verse, you

02:11:08 --> 02:11:08

see.

02:11:09 --> 02:11:10

And that's very powerful.

02:11:10 --> 02:11:11

And what that teaches us, I think, from

02:11:11 --> 02:11:14

a modern perspective, just coming to my mind,

02:11:15 --> 02:11:16

is number one, use the Qur'an in

02:11:16 --> 02:11:19

your dawah, of course, and that's been happening

02:11:19 --> 02:11:20

with most of the examples that you've given

02:11:20 --> 02:11:21

us.

02:11:21 --> 02:11:24

But also, unpack it.

02:11:26 --> 02:11:32

Study the historical, exegetical context, what the Sahaba

02:11:32 --> 02:11:36

said, what the living recipients of revelation said,

02:11:36 --> 02:11:39

what the Prophet ﷺ said, and don't make

02:11:39 --> 02:11:39

your mind up.

02:11:40 --> 02:11:41

Allow the tradition to speak for itself.

02:11:42 --> 02:11:45

And when you do that, you have so

02:11:45 --> 02:11:48

much richness behind these verses and these ayat

02:11:48 --> 02:11:49

and even these arguments.

02:11:49 --> 02:11:51

I learned this as well.

02:11:51 --> 02:11:53

When I want to try and prove God's

02:11:53 --> 02:11:56

existence, the major proof I use now is

02:11:56 --> 02:11:57

this from the Qur'an.

02:11:57 --> 02:11:59

The Qur'an hardly argues God's existence, because

02:11:59 --> 02:12:01

it's intuitive, it's in self-evident truth.

02:12:02 --> 02:12:03

There's probably only two verses.

02:12:04 --> 02:12:06

Chapter 52, verses 35 to 36.

02:12:06 --> 02:12:07

Did you come from nothing?

02:12:07 --> 02:12:08

Did you create yourself?

02:12:08 --> 02:12:09

Did you create the heavens and the earth?

02:12:09 --> 02:12:11

بَلَّ يُقِنُونَ Indeed, you don't have any certainty.

02:12:12 --> 02:12:14

Now, just looking at those verses, if you

02:12:14 --> 02:12:16

don't know the kind of exegesis or the

02:12:16 --> 02:12:18

language or the background, even the way a

02:12:18 --> 02:12:23

Sahabi responded to it, if you don't understand

02:12:23 --> 02:12:28

what Al-Bayhaqi narrates, Sulayman al-Khattabi, I

02:12:28 --> 02:12:33

believe, unpacking the kind of sound rationality behind

02:12:33 --> 02:12:35

these verses and applying it to creation.

02:12:35 --> 02:12:38

When you go into the exegetical tradition, the

02:12:38 --> 02:12:40

sunnah, the sahabah of these verses, you have

02:12:40 --> 02:12:41

a great argument.

02:12:41 --> 02:12:43

I've used the argument with some of the

02:12:43 --> 02:12:44

biggest names in atheism.

02:12:45 --> 02:12:46

And people can say it for themselves.

02:12:48 --> 02:12:52

The universe is makhluk, it came into existence,

02:12:52 --> 02:12:53

just like the human being.

02:12:53 --> 02:12:54

Did it come from nothing?

02:12:54 --> 02:12:55

Did it create itself?

02:12:56 --> 02:12:58

Was it created by something else created, which

02:12:58 --> 02:12:59

is implied in the verse?

02:13:00 --> 02:13:02

Or was it created by something uncreated, which

02:13:02 --> 02:13:04

is implied in the verses as well?

02:13:04 --> 02:13:05

This is all Qur'anic.

02:13:06 --> 02:13:08

And I'm telling you, and I'm not saying

02:13:08 --> 02:13:09

it because of me, no one has been

02:13:09 --> 02:13:12

able to respond to this argument effectively with

02:13:12 --> 02:13:13

an undercutting defeater.

02:13:13 --> 02:13:15

And it's from the Qur'an.

02:13:15 --> 02:13:16

I learned it the hard way, right?

02:13:17 --> 02:13:19

But this is a lesson, go to the

02:13:19 --> 02:13:21

Qur'an, find out what the sahabah said,

02:13:21 --> 02:13:22

what the sunnah says, what the Prophet Muhammad

02:13:22 --> 02:13:25

said, what the historical academic background to all

02:13:25 --> 02:13:25

of that.

02:13:25 --> 02:13:27

And when you bring it together, you have

02:13:27 --> 02:13:31

something amazing which you produced, which was the

02:13:31 --> 02:13:33

final story of conversion.

02:13:33 --> 02:13:35

And that's your methodology here.

02:13:35 --> 02:13:37

And that's what we should learn when we're

02:13:37 --> 02:13:37

approaching the Qur'an.

02:13:38 --> 02:13:41

Use the Qur'an, use the sahabah, use

02:13:41 --> 02:13:45

their statements, use the historical and academic backdrop,

02:13:46 --> 02:13:48

and use the sunnah concerning these verses, and

02:13:48 --> 02:13:50

you'll get the best arguments.

02:13:50 --> 02:13:51

What do you think?

02:13:52 --> 02:13:53

Oh, definitely, definitely.

02:13:55 --> 02:13:59

I recall even Maher Amir saying something similar.

02:13:59 --> 02:14:02

I'm not sure if you're familiar with Maher.

02:14:03 --> 02:14:05

I'm not very familiar with names.

02:14:05 --> 02:14:08

If I see a piece, I'll probably say

02:14:08 --> 02:14:08

yeah.

02:14:09 --> 02:14:11

Yeah, mashallah, he was a very, very active

02:14:11 --> 02:14:13

brother, at least used to be very active.

02:14:13 --> 02:14:19

Someone who specialized in ideology brings that up

02:14:19 --> 02:14:19

all the time.

02:14:19 --> 02:14:21

We're having discussions with anyone, always go for

02:14:21 --> 02:14:22

the Qur'an.

02:14:22 --> 02:14:25

The Qur'an provides the best arguments you

02:14:25 --> 02:14:27

can come up with against anyone, without a

02:14:27 --> 02:14:27

doubt.

02:14:27 --> 02:14:29

I mean, that's natural to expect.

02:14:30 --> 02:14:34

I would like to read the very short

02:14:34 --> 02:14:39

section, because I want to highlight how much

02:14:39 --> 02:14:45

of an unlikely scenario that we're dealing with

02:14:45 --> 02:14:49

in terms of the Romans defeating the Persians.

02:14:49 --> 02:14:50

Yes, it is.

02:14:50 --> 02:14:56

Because it really is crazy.

02:14:58 --> 02:15:00

Here it is.

02:15:03 --> 02:15:05

I'm just looking for it.

02:15:05 --> 02:15:06

Okay, okay.

02:15:06 --> 02:15:07

Okay.

02:15:10 --> 02:15:14

So, subhanAllah, this is what leads to the

02:15:14 --> 02:15:16

downfall of the Persians.

02:15:17 --> 02:15:19

And again, this is just a very short

02:15:19 --> 02:15:21

section of what occurs.

02:15:26 --> 02:15:29

This is from Al-Hurmazan, the Sassanid governor

02:15:29 --> 02:15:31

speaking to Amr ibn al-Khattab, speaking about

02:15:31 --> 02:15:34

what happened, telling him how the battles ended,

02:15:34 --> 02:15:35

how the war ended.

02:15:36 --> 02:15:41

He says, Khosrow sent Sheherbaraz along with the

02:15:41 --> 02:15:42

Persian soldiers.

02:15:43 --> 02:15:45

He conquered Levant, Egypt, and destroyed most of

02:15:45 --> 02:15:46

the Roman fortification.

02:15:47 --> 02:15:50

However, he could not conquer Constantinople.

02:15:50 --> 02:15:53

Khosrow rebuked him for failing to conquer it,

02:15:53 --> 02:15:57

and Sheherbaraz, again the general, wrote letters back

02:15:57 --> 02:15:58

apologizing.

02:15:59 --> 02:16:03

This continued, and remember, this is the Persians

02:16:03 --> 02:16:06

completely dominating the Romans.

02:16:07 --> 02:16:10

If they just stayed the way they were,

02:16:10 --> 02:16:15

if this incident didn't happen, then the whole

02:16:15 --> 02:16:18

tide of history would have remained the same

02:16:18 --> 02:16:20

instead of changing so dramatically.

02:16:20 --> 02:16:22

But here's what happens.

02:16:23 --> 02:16:26

Khosrow rebuked him for failing to conquer it,

02:16:26 --> 02:16:29

and Sheherbaraz wrote letters back apologizing.

02:16:29 --> 02:16:33

This continued until Khosrow was fed up and

02:16:33 --> 02:16:40

decided to kill Sheherbaraz, the emperor of the

02:16:40 --> 02:16:43

Sassanid Persian empire, decided to kill his general

02:16:43 --> 02:16:46

for being unable or for taking so long

02:16:46 --> 02:16:48

to conquer Constantinople.

02:16:49 --> 02:16:52

He then sent letters to one of his

02:16:52 --> 02:16:56

generals, his other generals, who was hesitant about

02:16:56 --> 02:17:00

killing Sheherbaraz and kept making excuses for him.

02:17:00 --> 02:17:03

So basically Khosrow wants another general to kill

02:17:03 --> 02:17:06

Sheherbaraz, and that other general doesn't want to

02:17:06 --> 02:17:07

kill Sheherbaraz.

02:17:07 --> 02:17:09

So he kept on making excuses.

02:17:10 --> 02:17:13

This also continued until Khosrow had enough with

02:17:13 --> 02:17:16

the general and wrote to Sheherbaraz to kill

02:17:16 --> 02:17:17

the other general.

02:17:19 --> 02:17:22

When Sheherbaraz received the order, he had the

02:17:22 --> 02:17:25

general summoned and confessed that he was going

02:17:25 --> 02:17:27

to carry out the order.

02:17:27 --> 02:17:30

The general retrieved the letters sent by Khosrow

02:17:30 --> 02:17:34

and showed Sheherbaraz that he was supposed to

02:17:34 --> 02:17:35

be put to death first.

02:17:36 --> 02:17:40

And Sheherbaraz shocked and reached out to Heraclius

02:17:40 --> 02:17:44

and a truce was made, allowing Heraclius to

02:17:44 --> 02:17:46

march into Persia with little resistance.

02:17:47 --> 02:17:53

So it was simply because of Khosrow being

02:17:53 --> 02:17:58

impatient with one of his generals and then

02:17:59 --> 02:18:04

his generals having this mistrust against him and

02:18:04 --> 02:18:08

against one another, well against him, and then

02:18:08 --> 02:18:13

the main Persian general just deciding to not

02:18:13 --> 02:18:19

take part anymore, that allowed Heraclius to simply

02:18:19 --> 02:18:24

march into Persia and to end it, when

02:18:24 --> 02:18:28

that would have been impossible before those specific

02:18:28 --> 02:18:29

events.

02:18:32 --> 02:18:32

SubhanAllah, subhanAllah.

02:18:33 --> 02:18:37

And there's not much that needs to be

02:18:37 --> 02:18:39

said apart from everyone needs to read this

02:18:39 --> 02:18:39

book.

02:18:40 --> 02:18:42

Please download it, read it.

02:18:42 --> 02:18:42

And I think you should do a second

02:18:42 --> 02:18:43

edition in the future.

02:18:44 --> 02:18:46

Maybe what we can do is you can

02:18:46 --> 02:18:49

use maybe this podcast as an example to

02:18:49 --> 02:18:50

motivate you to do a second edition maybe

02:18:50 --> 02:18:53

in a couple of years to say, right,

02:18:53 --> 02:18:54

what are the contemporary lessons?

02:18:54 --> 02:19:01

Let's unpack the psychological strategic lessons from this

02:19:01 --> 02:19:03

and apply in a contemporary sense.

02:19:03 --> 02:19:05

That'll be a phenomenal, or a second book,

02:19:05 --> 02:19:07

a part two in doing that.

02:19:07 --> 02:19:08

And I think you're the right man for

02:19:08 --> 02:19:09

the job.

02:19:09 --> 02:19:10

So final two questions.

02:19:10 --> 02:19:12

We have been going for a while now.

02:19:12 --> 02:19:13

Allah bless you for your patience.

02:19:13 --> 02:19:20

And the final two questions are, where can

02:19:20 --> 02:19:23

they find this book and where can they

02:19:23 --> 02:19:23

find you?

02:19:24 --> 02:19:28

And what's new projects coming up, inshallah?

02:19:29 --> 02:19:35

Okay, so the book, Why the Companions Converted

02:19:35 --> 02:19:38

to Islam can be picked up from the

02:19:38 --> 02:19:42

Dar Al-Arqam website, even though it should

02:19:42 --> 02:19:50

be available in many popular Islamic bookstores around

02:19:50 --> 02:19:53

the world, in the States, in the UK.

02:19:54 --> 02:19:56

But yeah, if it's not available in a

02:19:56 --> 02:19:58

bookstore near you, then you can definitely pick

02:19:58 --> 02:19:59

it up from the Dar Al-Arqam website.

02:19:59 --> 02:20:01

Inshallah, we could include the link in the

02:20:01 --> 02:20:01

description.

02:20:03 --> 02:20:03

100%.

02:20:03 --> 02:20:03

Inshallah.

02:20:05 --> 02:20:10

In regards to what I'm doing, well, I

02:20:10 --> 02:20:13

said, I'm someone who's very secretive about my

02:20:13 --> 02:20:16

upcoming projects, unfortunately.

02:20:16 --> 02:20:18

That's probably a good thing, to be honest.

02:20:18 --> 02:20:20

Actually, it was a bad question, because, you

02:20:20 --> 02:20:22

know, you don't want hasad, or ayin, or

02:20:22 --> 02:20:23

god knows what.

02:20:23 --> 02:20:24

No, not at all.

02:20:25 --> 02:20:28

I usually go after people, and I like

02:20:28 --> 02:20:29

to surprise them, you know.

02:20:29 --> 02:20:31

I like to surprise them by dropping episodes.

02:20:31 --> 02:20:34

This reminds me of The Art of War

02:20:34 --> 02:20:35

by Samzoon, right?

02:20:35 --> 02:20:38

He said something like, work in the darkness,

02:20:38 --> 02:20:39

and then strike like a thunderbolt.

02:20:40 --> 02:20:42

So I want you to strike like a

02:20:42 --> 02:20:42

thunderbolt.

02:20:43 --> 02:20:45

Keep on striking like a thunderbolt.

02:20:45 --> 02:20:47

This book was a thunderbolt, in a positive

02:20:47 --> 02:20:49

way, giving light to the dawah.

02:20:50 --> 02:20:53

It was an amazing, I mean, this was,

02:20:53 --> 02:20:55

it, you taught me.

02:20:55 --> 02:21:00

I spent the morning going through your book,

02:21:00 --> 02:21:01

writing notes.

02:21:01 --> 02:21:03

I came up with these insights from our

02:21:03 --> 02:21:04

conversation.

02:21:05 --> 02:21:08

And, you know, your kind of, mashallah, laid

02:21:08 --> 02:21:12

back, informative, teacher-like approach has allowed me

02:21:12 --> 02:21:15

to express myself.

02:21:16 --> 02:21:19

But yeah, so Jazakallah, it should be the

02:21:19 --> 02:21:20

other way around.

02:21:20 --> 02:21:22

I should be getting you to speak more,

02:21:22 --> 02:21:24

but you got such, you got such an

02:21:24 --> 02:21:27

amazing approach that you got me to speak,

02:21:27 --> 02:21:29

because I was really inspired, actually.

02:21:29 --> 02:21:30

And I'm going to think more about the

02:21:30 --> 02:21:31

book, and I'm going to put it in

02:21:31 --> 02:21:32

the description.

02:21:32 --> 02:21:33

Everyone, please buy it.

02:21:33 --> 02:21:34

I appreciate it.

02:21:34 --> 02:21:35

Buy it for your friends as well.

02:21:36 --> 02:21:37

Buy it for your friends, your family, your

02:21:37 --> 02:21:37

dua.

02:21:38 --> 02:21:39

Don't just buy one book, buy five and

02:21:39 --> 02:21:40

give them out.

02:21:40 --> 02:21:42

That could be part of your dawah as

02:21:42 --> 02:21:42

well, mashallah.

02:21:44 --> 02:21:44

Barakallah.

02:21:44 --> 02:21:46

I think it was my pleasure being here,

02:21:46 --> 02:21:49

and definitely enjoyed some of the insights, especially

02:21:49 --> 02:21:52

what you were saying about Umair and the

02:21:52 --> 02:21:53

Prophet, peace be upon him, his hikmah, and

02:21:53 --> 02:21:55

his word choice, and what he was saying

02:21:55 --> 02:21:55

to him.

02:21:58 --> 02:22:01

Definitely, those things can be added, inshallah, to

02:22:01 --> 02:22:02

a second edition.

02:22:03 --> 02:22:05

May Allah bless you for your time, and

02:22:05 --> 02:22:07

inshallah, this is not the last.

02:22:07 --> 02:22:09

We'll do this in the future again, inshallah.

02:22:11 --> 02:22:13

Assalamualaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh.

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