Haleh Banani – Feeling Like a Fraud & The Imposter Syndrome – E3

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			Assalamu Aleikum I'm from Earth and welcome to season three of Muslim life hackers podcast. The
Muslim life hackers podcast brings together individuals from all walks of life to give their
insights on an area to help you live better, achieve more and succeed in this life and Linux. If
you're new to the show, make sure to check out our episode archives over at Muslim life hackers.com,
where you'll find all the episodes from season one and season two. Now, let's get started.
		

			Today we'll be speaking to sister Hello bananas. She has a master's degree in clinical psychology
has been a featured expert in a variety of platforms and also hosted her own TV show for our budget
TV called with Halle, which combined principles of psychology and Islam to help people reach their
full potential. In this interview, we talk about the imposter syndrome, the lack of fraud, tackling
perfectionism and handling negative self talk. So enjoy this episode with Halle banani.
		

			Thanks for taking time to join us. So to start off, can you please tell us a bit about yourself and
just an introduction for our audience? Sure, sure. I have my Master's in clinical psychology. And I
have had over 18 years of experience doing therapy with individuals doing marriage counseling, and
working with an international clientele, I do Skype therapy sessions. And I'm also the founder, co
founder of the five pillars of marriage. And my husband and I have come up with this program on
helping people have a very successful marriage. So that's like the number five and then the five
pillars of merits of hamdulillah. Fantastic, that sounds really good. The topic that we wanted to
		

			speak about today on the show is about the imposter syndrome. So for those who haven't heard of this
term, can you give us a brief explanation about what it is exactly? Sure. It's a psychological
phenomenon in which people are unable to internalize their accomplishments. So they feel a bit
inadequate. And it's this feeling of chronic self doubt, and feeling that they are somehow going to
be exposed.
		

			Okay, so what actually causes someone to feel this way is that a result of low self esteem or a mix
of issues? Actually, it's a bit different than having low self esteem, because it is it is having
there is a discrepancy between their actual achievement and how they feel about the achievement,
these are usually high achieving individuals. And they just have a feeling of self doubt. And it
stems generally from parents being very critical of them, you know, maybe there is pressured that
they they have received from their parents, there, sometimes it's due to the internal expectation
that they have, they have very high expectation to expect perfectionism. And so they it's hard for
		

			them to live up to that, which leads to this feeling.
		

			Okay, so when I was actually reading this, it's, it says that a lot of high achievers actually
struggle with this as as you mentioned right now, and it's because people expect perfection from
themselves. Right, right. How can someone tackle that that perfectionism? I mean,
		

			right? Well, what happens is that the, they don't internalize these individuals, they are high
achieving, like you're saying, they're very ambitious, and they have achieved quite a bit, but they
haven't internalized their success. And they generally attribute their success to either luck or
external events. Now talking about the perfectionism, generally, most people who feel this way do
have the sense of being a perfectionist. And this can be really very destructive, because there is
this very high expectation, and they never feel like they're good enough. And this makes a person
feel they always feel inadequate, that they have never, they haven't done enough, and they're not
		

			good enough, smart enough, talented enough. And so it's really important to set your goals at a
very, at a reachable state. I use this analogy with my clients because I deal with a lot of
individuals who are extremely successful that they are high achievers, and they do suffer from this.
I've dealt with a number of people who have suffered from this and the way I explain it.
		

			to them is that you are setting this goal. And it's very much like a, you know, when you're making
when you're shooting baskets, right, yeah. And that goal, you can set it as high or as low as you
want. And it's very tricky where you place it, right? Because I know when my son was taking
basketball, when it's an adjustable net, and if it's too low, they're not going to feel challenged,
he just felt like oh, this for babies, right. And if it's too high, what happens is that the person
will feel overwhelmed. And a lot of these high achievers what they do, they set it like 60 feet
high. And that feeling of like wanting perfection. But what they don't realize is that there is it's
		

			so unattainable, that they almost stopped trying, and they feel they feel very defeated. So my
suggestion is adjusting the goal, you can still be ambitious, you can set high goals, but make it
attainable, and do it one step at a time, rather than suddenly putting in 50 feet high, you start
low, and then you keep building gradually. So you build gradually so that you can be able to make
use of that momentum that comes with it. Right. Right. Right. and gaining that sense of competence
and knowing that you have the ability to do this task at hand. Mm hmm. Okay. Yep. Makes sense. So, I
mean, say, say if someone was being given an opportunity when they can, they're taking on a big role
		

			or project and although they are competent, they still feel like they're belong there. So for this
person and others who find themselves in this predicament, what advice would you give them? Like,
how can they overcome this internal conflict, say, even if they set goals that were kind of
reachable, but that that position them being in that they just feel like I don't belong here? And
it's like, right, right? Well, the first thing you need to do is definitely control yourself talk.
You know, as a cognitive behavioral therapist, one of the first things I do with my clients is
address the fact that how their thoughts affect their emotions, and their emotions affect their
		

			behavior. So the conversation, that internal dialogue that you have with yourself, you really have
to take control of that, because that's what's causing all that anxiety, the self doubt, another
thing that you could do is that you can own your successes. I had a client who she graduated from an
Ivy League school had a great position, very successful, but she did not feel that she had anything
to offer. So one of the things I had her do was to list down, and she had a very long list of
achievements for someone so young, she had achieved so much, Mashallah, but she never internalized
it. So once you wrote it down, I said, I want you to really internalize these achievements. And
		

			that's when she it finally hit her that yes, that I, I am good enough. And I have made some
achievements, so owning your success. And then the second thing is that you don't talk down yourself
that, you know, it's a beautiful quote, I came across, which, which is by CS Lewis, it says,
humility is not thinking less of yourself, but thinking of yourself less, it's not beautiful.
		

			It's not that you're thinking less like, I'm not good enough. being humble is not under appreciating
what you have to offer, but not being narcissistic about it not, you're not thinking about yourself,
so excessively. So when you, you don't talk yourself down, that's really important. The third thing
you can do is you focus on the value that you're adding, instead of focusing on perfection, because
that's where people get stuck. They feel that they need to be perfect if they're writing an article,
and I was just writing an article last night and needed you there is that feeling inside that you
want every every sentence to blow a person away, you want to have that impact, you want it to be
		

			powerful, but instead of searching for perfection, just think about adding value. And when you shift
your focus, then that's gonna that's really going to have a big impact. The two other suggestions is
embrace the challenges. Even if you feel like you're not up to the challenge. I can't tell you the
number of times I was asked to do something where I wasn't ready to do it. I didn't I may have not
had the experience. But I said yes. And by saying yes, I just I built my courage. I built the
experience and I tackled it and you know, your comfort zone will keep expanding as long as you keep
taking on the challenges. And the last thing is just not comparing yourself to others because as
		

			long as you compare
		

			You feel like oh, this person has achieved this, they can do this better. You are constantly it's
it's actually a form of
		

			violence to yourself when you compare. Yeah, yeah, that's that's true. And I think it doesn't help,
especially with what we have today with social media and everything. People, obviously, putting on
the side. So it's like that comparing just gets worse, doesn't it? It does, and it doesn't do really
any good. I think the best thing we can do is compare ourselves to, let's say, I can compare myself
and compete against myself, I want to be my best. So I want to be better than I was last year. It's
not about competing with others, and outdoing others. It's about competing with myself and making
sure that I'm constantly in that process of self development, self improvement, excelling and
		

			achieving. That's true. That's true. So I'm on that part when you were saying about owning your
successes and internalizing your accomplishments? Is it is it just by listing everything down? Or
		

			are there more steps to that? Because that actually sounds like one of the ones that you mentioned
quite quite a few times about internalizing accomplishments. internalizing? Yes, like, one client I
had, she was she was a physician, she was a business owner, extremely talented and creative. But you
know, she had very low feelings about herself very low self esteem, didn't feel like she was
accomplished. So it is about not just writing it down. But feeling that sense of accomplishment,
allowing yourself to feel good, I think there's a lot of guilt associated to a feeling. A lot of
people shy away from feeling proud. And it's not about the pride that will make you arrogant, but it
		

			is about gaining that sense of confidence, right. So there's a difference between confidence and
arrogance. And confidence is that you believe in your abilities versus arrogance, you feel you are
better than others, right. So there's nothing wrong with having that feeling of self confidence and
knowing that you're capable. And I think that's where a lot of times people shy away from
internalizing their achievements, maybe in the search or in the pursuit of humility. They don't want
to internalize it, but they keep away they prevent themselves from really excelling. Because they
are not allowing themselves to feel their capabilities. So they don't take the time to sit down to
		

			internalize what what they have done, and in order to motivate them to keep
		

			stepping up in their life.
		

			Right, right. And another important aspect is having that internal validation, I think individuals
who get stuck in the imposter syndrome, they're so focused on other people's acceptance, it's all
about external validation. If people say I'm okay, that I'm okay, if others, they validate me, then
I am okay. But what we need to do is take that and try to become more focused with internal
validation, we need to be able to feel that you know, I'm doing the right thing. Allah is pleased
with me, this is what I'm doing. And it is good. I'm adding value. And you're not so concerned about
other people's view of you or their acceptance, and having having more focus on self acceptance,
		

			where you accept yourself, whether that's your strengths, and your weaknesses, right, you have to
accept yourself as a package deal. And that will definitely help with this. So one of the things
that you mentioned, with regards to strategies on how to overcome that internal conflict you feel
when you're feeling like a fraud, or you feel like okay, you don't belong in that position. I wanted
to know that the thing you mentioned about providing value instead of perfectionism, so would you
have to give give, give us an example. Like say someone is, like, how do they know that they're
providing value? I mean, what, what how does that look like? Pretty much? Okay. All right. Well, you
		

			can see whatever it is that you're doing, like the example I gave about writing an article Yeah.
Right. So how do you know enough? Yeah, like when you're in the process of actually writing the
article. Mm hmm. As far as while you're writing it, you need to it's kind of that gut feeling of
knowing that you are giving a talk right. You are
		

			Giving it its due, right. And I think that feeling of a son, right, that feeling of I want to do
things as if Allah is watching me. And having that feeling of completion where you were you do your
best, but it's not about attaining perfection, but it's just about, I have given this the the right
amount of time. And I think we, we all get that feeling where we know when we're cutting corners
when we're kind of slapping something together versus when we really put the time and effort to do
the research and, you know, get the verses and just make it really good and complete right. Now what
happens with imposter syndrome, they have one of two extremes, the way that they deal with it,
		

			either they overly they over prepare, so they are spending hours and hours excessively, in preparing
for the task at hand, or they procrastinate to the very last minute, and that way, they can't feel
liable for the fact that they don't do a very good job. So it can go both ways. And I think you
know, like the Prophet salallahu alaihe salam has taught us to be in the middle, right, follow the
middle path, we don't want to be in any of these extremes of either spending hours and hours
preparing for the first something that is coming up. And I know that I fell into that initially when
I had conferences, and I stretched out my comfort zone because suddenly I was talking from talking
		

			to a few 100 people I was asked to speak in front of like a few 1000 people. Yeah, and I got myself
so involved with preparing, and, and, and just excessively preparing, right. And that's something I
recognize in myself. And I realized that, you know, I don't need to spend this amount of time and I
just I cut it down. And it made me It gave me so much more peace. I think my family appreciated that
so much more, right? Because I wasn't taking away time from them. And so I think that that really it
really helps to not overly not to be excessive in your preparation, and not, you know, just putting
it to the last minute and and having that contentment in your heart that you have done. What is what
		

			is expected and not trying to reach a perfection? I don't know if that answers your question.
Because it's, it's a little bit tricky to recognize whether
		

			it's a little bit tricky to find that line between doing your best and then aiming for an
unattainable perfectionism. Yeah, that actually makes sense. Because
		

			like, ultimately, when we're winning whenever we're doing something, we know when we kind of gave it
a half effort. And when we really did try our best, so it doesn't, you know, you know,
		

			and I knew when I was preparing, and I was overly preparing, I had a lecture in Malaysia, and I know
I went overboard in the preparation. My husband told me so right. And I knew I knew that it was more
than I needed to. And it's just we, we have that gut instinct. And then once you start listening to
your gut, and you start following it, then it decreases the self doubt as well, right? Because this
is a disorder, right? a disorder of self doubt. And so the more you start listening to yourself and
following your God, then that's going to give you that level of confidence and competence that you
need. And it will lower your that imposter syndrome. Hmm, true? Well, one of the things that you
		

			also mentioned was how there's this thing about internal validation about how, how when someone,
they feel feel that they're a fraud and everything because they hold validation, just, it depends on
other people's acceptance and what other people think. And I really like for you to put this
spotlight on the reality of do do other people really sit there and think about ourselves? That's a
question.
		

			That is a good point, isn't it? You know, no one really cares.
		

			I think everyone is so self consumed. Yeah. And this is I try to, you know, I try to get tell this
to my clients when they are so they become so obsessed about what does he think and what does she
think? And I said, You know what, I hate to break it to you, but they're not thinking about you.
Everyone is concerned with their own life, their own achievements, their own failures, right? And
even if you do make a mistake, I think that it's all about how you define success and failure.
Right?
		

			Generally people define success as achievement. And, you know, gaining maybe, whether it's material
wealth or possessions or status. But if you start defining success as the ability to learn,
		

			then anything that happens to you is, you know, your success, good. Even if you fail at a job and
you learn what you did wrong, or your business failed, and you learn that, how to invest your money,
or what you need to do, then you're still a success. And failure is the inability to learn rather
than thinking it's not being able to achieve your goal, because I can't tell you the number of
people who beat themselves up because they have not been able to achieve the goal that they wanted.
And they get stuck in that they can't get over it. So if you start looking at failure as the
inability to learn enough, so if you can't learn from this incident, then then that is failure.
		

			Yeah. Not the fact that you failed your class, or you failed at your business, or you failed in your
marriage, all of these are learning opportunities, and you can become a better person from these
experiences. Because they say the best best, like learning lessons are your own experiences. Yes,
yes. And then, you know, when we, when we do make a mistake, we learn it right? It is it becomes
such a part of us. And so we shouldn't be afraid of making mistakes, I think part of the imposter
syndrome is that fear of failure, because their aim, you know, they've put that basketball net so
high, it's 70 feet high. And they want perfection. And they're so afraid they're standing there with
		

			the ball in their hand, and they're so afraid that they're not going to make the basket. Right. So
this, we need to be able to be okay, if we don't make the basket, even if you try. I mean, I think
there's something on Michael Jordan, the number of shots that he missed the and the fact that he
wasn't even chosen on the basketball team in high school. Right? So we can't be afraid of that, you
know, he could have had a negative attitude and thought, Oh, I'm a loser. I can never do this. But
you know, it's about turning things around, reframing it, and then reaching your goals. Yeah, that
makes sense.
		

			So you see how the thing you also mentioned about having positive self talk? So say, if someone
failed, and they're, they're really kind of, like, messed up with what they're doing? I mean, how,
how should they speak to themselves? I mean, because I think so sometimes, we're so used to that
negative voice that it's like, we don't know how to speak well to ourselves anymore. I know it this
is this is such a phenomenon. And people are unaware of it, I the majority of the clients that I
have, that's one of the first things I teach them, and they're very unaware. And they don't
recognize how much it's destroying their life and their emotions and their relationships. So it's,
		

			it's about First of all, you have to recognize that you do have this internal self talk. And, you
know, the first week of therapy, I tell them just to recognize the negative self talk, because we
were talking somewhere about four or 500 words a minute. And 85% of what we're saying is negative.
So how is that going to affect us? Obviously, it's going to affect us in a negative way. So when you
become aware of that internal dialogue, and you start taking control of it, I guarantee your mood
will change, your achievement level will change and your relationships. So it is it is really key to
hone in on the self talk. Like Can you give us an example like if, say, I, I'm I made a mistake, and
		

			that negative self talk is like, Oh, you're so dumb. What? How should I have spoken to myself? Okay,
very good. So for a specific example, instead of saying that, you know, oh, how could I've done
this? I'm so stupid. First of all, the rule is never say anything negative about yourself. Okay, I
know that people are in the habit of that, but even just say, Oh, that was so stupid. Oh, I'm so
dumb. You know, you've got to refrain from using that because that is kind of like slamming the door
in your own face, right? So you have to say something like, Okay, well, I you know, I didn't do it
right. This time. I'm going to I'm going to do it another time. I will make it better the next time.
		

			That's okay.
		

			I'm going to try harder or I'm going to learn from this experience. Because if you think about it,
and I it's interesting because I wrote on my Facebook, kind of about
		

			Getting people's feedback on why they beat themselves. And a lot of people said that this is a sense
of, they want to achieve higher, and it's a way of motivating themselves. It's kind of like that
tough coach. But studies have shown that that is not an effective means to get the best out of a
person. The most effective means of getting the best out of an individual is by being positive and
giving that positive reinforcement, positive sentiment and affirmation. So if a person is telling
themself hear, you stupid idiot, I can't believe you messed up, I can't believe you did that, that
is not going to get them to succeed the next time. They're just making themselves feel horrible.
		

			Now, if they instead say, you know what,
		

			I really shouldn't have done this. I really shouldn't have done this next time. This is the way I'm
going to do it. So it's really about
		

			it's something that I call a redo, I do that with my kids. If they have a wrong reaction. I just
have them instead of getting mad about that reaction. I just say, let's, let's do a redo. Okay,
let's do that. Do that over. And what happens when you do that is that you program yourself to react
differently the next time? Yeah, that's, you see, last year, a reader. I like that.
		

			And you give and see, it's about redemption. It's about learning. It's about excusing yourself. You
know, I think a lot of times, we end up punishing ourselves, we punish our kids. And we get so
fixated on the punishment, that we don't recognize that the whole purpose of education is to teach
is for someone to learn. So if you're beating someone up, that's not guaranteeing that they're
learning, they're actually just feeling horrible about themselves and about you. But when you are
you nurture, you got to be like a nurturing coach to yourself, where you inspire, and you believe in
yourself and you give encouraging words. That's what's going to make you thrive, and nurturing
		

			coach. Yeah, that that sounds good. So we're actually coming close to the end of our interview now.
And I'd like to ask you our final questions that we ask all our guests. So the first question that
we have these, what are your three top book recommendations? We can do it with regards to this topic
or just generally on how to get the most out of my life?
		

			Oh, sure. Sure. You know what, I really enjoy the books from Anthony Robbins, personal power, awaken
the giant within I think they're both very powerful. Regarding this, there's Margie Warrell, W ar e
Ll stop playing safe. And she specifically talks about the imposter syndrome.
		

			Yes, yes. So I think that those are those are all, you know, good recommendations. Okay, cool. Okay,
so we'll go to our audience listening to this, you can find this on our show notes, which are on our
website. And so our second question is, what is your favorite life hack to get ahead in life?
		

			Favorite life hack? Okay.
		

			You know, I think it's this combination of I think that's synergy. The synergy of dealing with your
your body, mind, and soul. And, you know, just we're eating really healthy. We're doing a paleo
diet, my husband and I, yeah,
		

			the Paleo diet.
		

			Right. So I mean, peak performance, you know, talking about like, just being sharp, mentally,
physically, spiritually, always keeping that connection with a law and making sure that you're doing
everything for the sake of a law and surrendering to his plan. And then also emotionally addressing
your emotional needs, and just setting really reasonable and exciting goals for yourself. So I think
all of those and wanting to and wanting to change the world a little bit, I think that that's always
exciting is like you could add a little something to make the world better in your own way.
Fantastic. So where can we find you online?
		

			Well, you could find me online on holep unani.com, which is h al e h, ba na n i, halibut ninety.com.
And also like the five what I was telling you about the program that I have
		

			The five pillars of marriage.com. Okay, yep. And also on Facebook, like you mentioned. Fantastic.
Okay. So thank you so much for joining us on the show today, there's been a lot of things that have
been covered that I have benefited from. And I'm sure a lot of our listeners will as well. And so is
there anything else that you want to mention that you didn't get to mention on this interview time
the lie was, it was really a pleasure. And it really made me reflect on on this imposter syndrome
and how important it is to not be so hard on yourself, to allow yourself to just to grow and to, to
focus on adding value rather than wanting that perfection. So I think that I think we've covered it
		

			well, and it's like having that hustler than looking at the best case, interpretation of things that
have happened because I think people who tend to have this imposter syndrome tend to be a somewhat
negative. And so you just have to be very careful about interpreting things in the correct positive
way where you look at whether it was your success or your failure, you look at it, and you interpret
it in a positive way, rather than dismissing your successes.
		

			So there you have it, the interview with Halle banani. One thing that stood out for me in this
interview was the reality check about other people, whether they really sit there thinking about our
stops, they don't, people don't really care. I mean, sorry, if that kind of hurt you, but if you
don't believe me, then think about how many times you sit there thinking about the mistakes of
others. I mean, seriously, do you really sit there thinking about how that lecturer said, um, too
many times? Or how that, or how there was a typo in someone's Facebook post? Oh, my God. I mean, if
you do that, it's a bit worrying. But it also reminded me about this article I was reading. It was,
		

			it was a success story about someone putting themselves out there and succeeding in the online
business space. And this person said, how we sometimes give ourselves too much self importance, like
people are constantly watching our every move. And that stops us from doing what we really need to
do. So, food for thought. Anyway, I'd love to hear what you thought about this episode. And
everything we do on the show, including any topics or guests you'd like to see on, you can do so by
going to Muslim life hackers.com slash contact. We're also on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram, so
connect with us and you can also send your feedback through there. If you want to show your support
		

			for the show. The best way to do so is by telling your family and friends online or in person. Now,
this brings me to the end of the episode, friends. Until next time, remember the only person you
should aim to be better than is the person that you were yesterday, so give it your best today.
		

			Thank you for listening to the Muslim life hackers podcast. If you've enjoyed this episode, be sure
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