Haitham al-Haddad – BBC Radio London- Dealing with London Riots
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Assalamu alaikum. I just finished an interview with
Asad Ahmad from BBC
Radio London.
I hope that you listen to the interview.
You're listening to Asad Ahmad on BBC Radio
London.
Now it kicked off after the tragic killing
of 3 young girls
in Southport because of a knife attack. That
was exactly 2 weeks ago today. To be
clear, the rioting which followed it has nothing
to do
with the stabbings and deaths of those poor
children. It was sparked by false rumors that
the person arrested was a refugee.
He isn't. There were false false rumors that
he's of the Muslim faith. He is not.
But the truth, let's face it, wasn't going
to get in the way of those wanting
to riot.
Well, 29 London Imams have issued a statement
condemning the violence that followed that tragic attack.
They tell people in their statement
to avoid vigilantism
vigilantism
and any escalation
intentions. They also
advise people to engage
with the far
right perpetrators of violence with the aim of
correcting
false
narratives.
Some strong words there in this statement by
the imams. So one of the signatories to
the statement is the highly respected
imam sheikh doctor Haytham Al Haddad who joins
me now. Assalamu alaikum.
Thank you so much for coming in. The
pleasure is mine.
You're very clear in the statement
about
what you think of the riots that followed
that tragic killing in Southport.
And I will call them riots. I'm not
going to call them protests Yes. Like I
know some people have done. I think it's
very clear they were riots. I totally agree.
I totally agree with that. Yeah. I I
think people have been tiptoeing around the world
were the words it was a right in
my opinion.
But can you at least
understand
why people took to the streets
in anger
at immigration. Is that something you get? Yeah.
Well, see,
you know, they say in sociology that whenever
there is any
social phenomena, it is an outcome of an
array of
causes. It is not just one cause. And
this is a big mistake to say, well,
this social phenomena is because of this single
reason.
I think there are number of reasons behind
that. Well, we,
by the way, I, myself, I had a
confrontation
by
one of those people and he really pushed
me and he, you know, my wife was
next to me and he Is this in
the past couple of weeks? Yeah. Just, 2
day 2 days 2 days ago. Yeah. And
he was shouting
f f f f. And when I confronted
him and he said, well, why are you
confronting an idiot,
psychotic person?
So what I want to say is that
there are a number of reasons. The deprivation
some people are,
facing,
you know, the the
even the social economical,
reasons are there. The political reasons are there.
Now when media outlet and some politicians are
targeting Muslims and making the Muslim community
as this scapegoat.
And when whatever happens,
they immediately
ask Muslims to condemn or they are accusing
of Muslims. So now this segment of,
this segment of the wider non Muslim community
who have been
suffering from number of social political
deprivations,
they have been charged.
So once they
see any reason for them to, you know,
to take out what is in their,
chest
against those targeted
Muslims,
against this target,
this, community that has been alienated
by some politicians, by some media outlets, then
that will take place. So,
for example, why didn't they,
for example, target the black community?
Why didn't they target
other communities? And as you know, in in
the UK, there are so many communities. There
are so many cultures, but they targeted immediately
Muslim Muslims. And even in some of their
statements, they said we have no problem with
Hindu. We have no problem with. We have
no problem. Yep. They have said this. Yes.
I have. Yeah. Yeah. So why do they
have a problem with the Muslim community? It
seems that they have been,
charged against the Muslim community. And this leads
me, you know, this leads me to a
very important discussion. You know, polarization
in any society
is very dangerous.
And really as,
you know,
as an imam, as an academic, as a
thinker, as a Muslim leader,
I need to work towards
outrouting
the sources or the causes of these,
of this polarization.
But also, we need we need the politicians.
We need the media people to be responsible
enough
and at least
at least they should not target the Muslim
community and make them as the scapegoat.
And they should be sincere
whenever they interview the Muslim community, whenever they
talk about the Muslim community,
they should not make the Muslim community
as if they were the 5th column. Yeah.
They are the enemies within.
They are projected like this. Okay. Sheikh, the
you've raised some really important points there. And
I know our time is limited, but I
do wanna come back to those. But but
just before we I pick up on a
couple of things of what you said. One
thing that really interested me about the statement
and one thing that you've come across in
the last couple of days, like you say,
when you were targeted yourself with your wife,
you say
people should try and engage with perpetrators who
hold extreme views
and maybe who've even engaged in the violence.
How does your person on the street
engage with someone like that when they've got
such extreme
hostile views? Yeah. See. See,
as Muslims, first of all, everyone knows that
we are brave people. We are not coward.
And I always say that Muslims,
because this is our nature because we believe
in God. We believe that whatever happens to
us, it is the decree of Allah. And
we have seen Muslims in Gaza and how
they react. They have resilience. They have strength
despite
all what is happening to them. They show,
patience and they show positive attitude. So I
say Muslims and in general, they should show
positive attitude in in terms of a challenges.
And if they think
themselves as as,
from that perspective, they will turn any challenge
to opportunity
to share
the the the,
the values of,
our deen, our Islam with everyone. And that's
why we were
trying to encourage the Muslim community. Don't be
afraid. You need to you are confident of
yourself, of what you believe in, of what
you do. And therefore, you need to come
out and engage with,
everyone, including the, the the the people from
the far right. To show a positive side
of them. Okay. Imam Sheykh Takhtahidim al Hadar
that we're speaking about the rioting which happened
over the last, couple of weeks and we're
talking about engaging with people. What I wanna
play to you now, if you can listen,
to this and tell me how you would
perhaps respond, is a caller who called my
colleague Eddie Nessa on BBC Radio London a
few days ago,
and he didn't partake in the violence. Yep.
But he talks about how he understands
what happened. Just have a listen to this.
I don't agree with what these people are
doing, but I can understand. He lit a
few who's just been waiting to been lit
for a long time, and I don't think
you're gonna hear the end of this sort
of stuff. This is gonna happen more and
more if the government don't start listening to
people and start putting money into Britain instead
of putting it into people coming here illegally.
And we pick people up off the beach
that way. They come into the country illegally.
They don't get put in prison. And this
is what people have, I think, have had
enough with, going to my doctors. I've been
with 50 odd years and now I can't
get an appointment. Because when I sit in
the waiting room now, I feel like I'm,
you know, the only person there speaking English.
Funny thing is that when I go to
my doctors,
they look like the sorts of people that
you're talking about who are refugees, the actual
doctor.
When I when I when I when I
go to the hospital,
they look like they're actual people you're talking
about. When I go to my dentist,
they look like the people that you're talking
about. When I go to my pharmacist,
they look like the people that you're talking
about. It's quite interesting this, isn't it?
Yeah. But I think they don't come up
on the police side, did they? They they
come over on their plane legally, and they
went to college, and they they don't own
the position they're in. That was John from
Warpington speaking to my colleague, Eddie Nest on
BBC Radio London. Basically, he's saying
he
doesn't agree with the violence,
but like many people, he's angry at seeing
people coming illegally,
coming on the beaches.
He says he can't get a doctor's appointment.
He has to wait. So they are their
services are suffering as well. How would you
engage with John from Warrington? Okay. Number of
things. First of all, who said that the
reason behind all of these things is the
Muslim community? Number 1. Yep.
Number
2, it has,
we want those people like John and others
to engage with the Muslim community. There are
100 or 1000, maybe around 2,000 mosque in
in the whole of the UK. And they
have opened their arms for the non Muslim
community to come and engage and discuss. MCB,
normally, they have a week, which is a
week of engagement where they encourage Muslims all
over the country to open their arms
for the the the such people. So the
key thing is, you know, for positive integration,
we need both sides to have the will
to engage with the other side. It is
not just only
one side. And here, to be honest with
you, I don't blame John. I blame some
media outlets. I'm so sorry to say this.
I know I am free. And the free
BC and we blame also some politicians. Yeah.
Because they presented us as, as I said
to you, as the enemies from within. And
they forgot about our contribution in terms of
NHS, our contribution.
Do do they know that,
the Muslim community
almost donate
£500,000,000 every single year. This is a charity.
We are the the the the number one
charitable community in the UK. And I know
that, Sisik, is from the Charity Commission. So
what you say is is is correct, and
we we we we can say that's from
the Charity Commission.
But you you blame
politicians and the media, and that kind of
started happening after 911, if we remember go
back, yeah. Or even that's where things really
changed in my memory Agree. For Muslims in
the country.
And you say things have to change now
again with the media and politicians.
How should that change? Yeah. What's your advice
to the media? What's your advice to politicians?
What should they do? Okay. Number of things.
First of all, they should not see Muslims
as the others.
This is very important.
If you see them as the others, then
psychologically,
subconsciously, you will target to them. This is
number 1. Number 2, quickly,
if we have our set of values,
these values should not be targeted. We are
not differentiating between 2 things. If we disagree
ideologically,
it doesn't mean that we
necessarily should hate each other. Yeah? And for
integration,
positive integration to take place, we don't need
to have conformity.
In order for us to be united, we
don't need to agree
100% on ideologically
on so many things. So for example, if,
we know that the Muslim community, they disagree
with the culture of drinking.
We agree with, we disagree with so many,
sexual related activities. It doesn't mean that we
are the 5th column because ideologically,
we disagree with these practices.
The third point, they should engage with positive
debates
with their representatives,
the imams, the the, the academics within the
Muslim community. And when we debate, we should
debate honestly on honestly ground, not forcing them
to accept a certain ideology. Now now that's
a that's a really important point you're making
because what some people would say and certainly
I've heard some right wing Mhmm.
Activists say this. And it's this thing of
what Muslims
might think of as a debate. They feel
as if they're pushing their opinion and saying,
no, this country has to be like this.
People have to be like and they're almost
forcing the Muslim viewpoint on others.
And that surely can't happen. Yeah. I agree.
I totally agree. And if I have done
this, for example, as an imam before I,
I made a mistake. If any imam is
doing this, it's a mistake. And we should
be brave enough as imams, as scholars, etcetera,
to to admit, to acknowledge our mistakes. But
that doesn't mean
that we should not continue
in having honest debates, open debates. I push
I don't push my view on you. You
don't push my view on me. Let us
use let us find the formula. All of
us,
thinkers from all communities
that diversity
should be a source of prosperity.
This is the challenge Because see, you like
it, you don't like it. We live in
a multicultural
society. Yes?
And
you we I know that so many people
disagree with that, but it is it is
happening. Yes. You know, go to London. When
when I came now by public transportation, everyone
they they they belong to different cultures. It's
That's wonderful.
Yeah. So this is
it should be a a source of prosperity,
this diversity. How does that happen with respect?
Respect doesn't mean
uniformity in ideology.
No, we can agree on so many things.
And let us debate to choose the best
idea, the best ideology
that,
that that brings prosperity to our society. Yeah.
This is a very important point. This is
the third one. We need also the 4th
point. We need
really projects.
Projects
where we engage
in,
according to common grounds.
See,
that's why many Muslims have the food bank
project, especially after the COVID.
Many Muslims,
they they have a program. We have a
program called know your neighbor where the most
the mosques are visiting the neighbors and trying
to provide help to the neighbors. I hear
I really want to mention the experience of
imam Adam, the Imam of Aquiliam,
yes, Aquiliam Mosque. That's right. And, you know,
this is a positive integration where they cooked
food and they presented it to to give
it to protesters. Let me just say, tell
people that they're getting burgers Exactly. To the
people who are protesting against the mosque. They
went out on a on a trial. And
this shows that we, Muslims, are confident. We
are not afraid of anyone. We are not
afraid of any debate, but give us the
opportunity
to present ourselves as we are. To present
our ideas, our ideology, our belief. A really
important point there made by you, Imam Sheikh,
doctor Haitham Al Haddad, about how we should
allow people to have differences, but also engage
in debate. Thank you so much for your
time this evening.