Fatima Barkatulla – Ummah Talk #001 – Haitham al-Haddad – Pandemic Reflections, War on Motherhood, Influence of Women
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The guest of a podcast series discusses the importance of prioritizing economic and social security programs and avoiding cutting-edge groceries in the Muslim world. They emphasize the need for a strong desire for motherhood and rebuilding a healthy social environment. The negative impact of "monestry" on women is discussed, along with the need for women to be viewed as a source of pride. A recommendation is made for feedback and a comment.
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Yo,
yo.
Welcome to the oma talk podcast with me fathima barkatullah
lead the oma.
In this podcast, I speak to scholars, experts, leaders in their field about some of the big issues facing the Muslim community worldwide, as well as your local Muslim community here, especially in the West. So please tune in, you can catch the podcast on Muslim Central podcasts, which is available on all sorts of audio platforms. So check it out in Sharla. The podcast episodes will also be available on YouTube. So do share the episodes. Let me know what you think about the ideas and the topics that we discuss in the episodes. So Pamela, we're living in a unique time in history, a loss of Hannah Darla has caused the universe to conspire to create the circumstances. That means the
we Muslims in the West, are uniquely placed to look at analyze, and perhaps do something about some of the issues facing the Muslim Ummah, today, as Muslims living in the 21st century,
almost 100 years after the abolishment of the philosopher, we are in a position to now look back, analyze, talk about think about what the Muslim Ummah has experienced, especially in the last few 100 years. And what led to our decline, and what could possibly lead to our revival. And I believe that begins with dialogue, it begins with us thinking about and talking about, and reflecting on some of the big issues facing the Muslim ummah. So join me in this podcast where I'm going to be speaking to some about LMR, some of the scholars, experts, academics, people engaging with some of the issues that the Muslim Ummah is facing today. And hopefully, we're going to come up with some
ideas, conclusions, things that might help all of us to navigate the space and the time in which we live. Because, you know, 100 years from now, none of us are going to be here. But the effects of our actions, the effects of what we did in our lifetimes, in sha Allah will be felt by the generations following us. And inaction is also an action right? In Action also has an effect. So all of us have to pay attention to this, the revival of the message of Islam. The revival of the aroma of Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam is a responsibility, and it's the responsibility of every single generation to strengthen and pass on something better to the next generation. And I hope that we can
begin to do that. In this episode, I got a chance to catch up with one of my teachers and mentors share. Haytham dad should hate them has, I think, you know, he came to the UK I think in the early noughties. I believe he's been quite an active and pivotal figure for Muslims in the UK. I know that he's influential in European countries as well, and some of the Messiah in America. also refer to him or consider him to be a mentor and an advisor.
Chair Haytham has always really supported sisters who have been involved in that work here in the UK.
And that's how I came across him. He used to give classes to some of us back in the day. And I think one of the things about chef is that he might not give the most popular and the most kind of typical answers that sisters would like to hear.
But one of the things you can
Be 100% sure about is that when he does give his views and he does give advice, it comes from a place of deep concern and care for the long term effect that that advice we'll have on sisters lives. So inshallah with that, I welcome you to this podcast. And I hope that you're going to benefit from my conversation with share Haytham. If there's anything in the discussion that really stands out for you, that really resonates with you, you can put it in the comments in you know, quotation marks so that other people can also read those gems. I hope you're going to enjoy this podcast series. And I hope you can share the episodes with others.
Bismillah Alhamdulillah wa salatu salam ala rasulillah dear brothers and sisters as salaam alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh. I'm your sister Fatima Baraka to life. And today I have a special guest with me who I'm very pleased to have been to have this opportunity to speak to
it's chef hate them and head that.
The way I would introduce chef Haytham is I've known chef haven for quite a few years. I think I first met him in the early 2000s
after I was married, and you know, I was introduced to his work through my husband and handler, myself and my husband we consider him to be one of our teachers or mentors. And we in the UK we're very, I think we're very fortunate Alhamdulillah to have somebody likes your faith. I'm here. Because, you know, I was speaking to my husband before this interview. And I asked him, How would you How would you describe chef Haytham? Like, how would you introduce him? I don't want to introduce him in the typical way where you're like, listing all the different countries and universities that somebody studied at, right? Because people can look that up easily online. And he
said, I think you should say that. Mashallah. Shia Haytham has been a unifying force for Muslims in Britain. And I was reflecting on that and I was thinking well hamdulillah that's that's a really apt way I think to introduce
Institute Institut introduce you chef in Santa Monica.
When it comes to labor, I felt exactly like her sister Fatima And may Allah reward you anyway for these good words. And for me, I need this praise that I don't deserve. Although I wish to be a unifying person or oma and actually you arrived that this is one of my missions, I want to see the unified because our own now will not gain any kind of respect within the international setup without being united. And in fact, if I may, let us let us make this a bit casual. Yes, sister, okay, if I may just start and jump into the deep end.
So panela the call and what is the message of the Quran? The Quran and Sunnah.
The message of the Quran and Sunnah is to unify those who unified Allah.
Yeah, yeah. To unit to unify those who unified Allah.
Yes to heat. The people who do manual huddle.
In Arabic, all of it is around why. So he do men, Why hadn't I had unifying those who unify them like a lot? And that doesn't mean that making those people are the enemies of others. No. But in fact, when those who unify Allah, Allah Allah, we're not going to battle and equally omega Sudan and the de la vida tenable and central message of Islam is to unify a ledger Lada but some people might say first of all DNA some people might say unifying galanga Lada and yet people are not united No. unify those who unify the ledger live. Okay. I was going to say that once we unify all right Allah Allah as Muslims, others will be
respecting us. So the problems the global problems, and they
international conflict will be less, because they will not see us as a scattered nations that they can jump on us. And they will have conflict among themselves who will capture more of the Muslim land more of the
Muslim resources. This is one thing. And the other thing is look now, at, for example,
the post colonial or COVID-19 world. Yeah, because definitely the era before Corona is different from the era, post Khurana
had there been a Muslim
superpower along with the other superpowers that exist now, such as America,
China, or Russia? If there was another superpower that is Islamic? I think it would have shown a very positive response to the pandemic. And now, everyone, I have written an academic paper recently, just two, three weeks ago, I submitted it to Cordoba Foundation, they have an academic conference about post colonial world
and Mena relationship Mena means Middle East, North Africa. Country. Yeah. So the, my paper was safe in post Khurana world. And everyone agrees whether Antonio, was the United Nation, Secretary General, or even have a key Kissinger's and the WTO, stinkers, everyone agree that the world did not respond to this pandemic, in the way they should be. Most of the countries responded
differently. Okay. And even once they learned how to how they learned from each other, how to respond to the pandemic, but everyone was acting in a very selfish way. Because everyone wants to protect their own interests, their own people, etc. And on the other side, there was a report that was recently published, that the rich people got richer during this pandemic, because everyone was taking trying to take advantage of the pandemic. Yeah. Now, from an Islamic perspective, Islam is against all of this. Islam is, okay, the one of the very general and golden rules of Islam is without a little bit of a letdown in London. And what is interesting about this maximum, this
Islamic Maxim is the fact that Allah Jalla, Allah says, help one another. On piety. Good, Dennis. Yeah, and don't help one another. When sinning and transgression. Allah, Allah, Allah didn't say, help and cooperate with Muslims on the alleged Allah Allah made the condition is to help one another, based on the outcome, the outcome, if it is piety, good, Dennis. Yeah, yeah, then
try to cooperate with all those who have the same aim. And don't cooperate with those who aim to sin and to transgress and to cause damage and corruption. mischeif even if they are Muslims, yeah. So this might be a nice introduction. Anyway, I took you to the deep end anyway.
Well, I think one of the things that the the whole COVID situation highlighted to everyone in the world is how the virus doesn't recognize borders, right? A virus does not knows borders, it doesn't recognize our skin, our skin colors are even our religions, right. It literally is something that is affecting all human beings. And it takes it will take a global effort,
you know, to deal with something like that. So I do, I do think that although there were people taking advantage of the situation, etc. I think for both the west and the east, it kind of was really eye opening and a bit humbling, I would say right, you know, yeah.
So that brings me that brings me shift to probably the first thing I did want to ask you is
and by the way, you know, I wasn't exaggerating when I described you as unifying because
You know, just so that brothers and sisters are aware, like, I would say, I remember what it was like in the UK in the 90s. Right. And I would say, late 90s and early 2000s. And I think there was actually a lot of confusion, you know, amongst certain groups of brothers and sisters, people who are very interested in Tao are interested in serving the deen. Okay, but really didn't know where to direct their efforts. And I think, also didn't really have the bigger picture of the online mind
in such a way that would bring about unity, you know. And so I think, Chef, one of the things that, I mean, I'm just speaking from experience, you know, that one of the things that happened when, when we came across some of your classes, and, you know, from your mentorship was that I think it made people realize that actually, you know,
that there had been a very shallow way of looking at things, you know, yeah. And, and also that, actually, things aren't as black and white,
as people would have liked, or thought, and I think a lot of the kind of tensions that existed, especially amongst certain groups of Muslims. And Hamdulillah, I do feel that those tension, those tensions have subsided. Um, and, yeah, I do think that you had a role in that. So anyway, the first question, I wanted to ask you about the lockdown, and just your reflections on like, you know, we've come up, we've kind of come out of it now, I would say, you know, pretty much back to normal in London. What are some of the, like, reflections about this kind of sudden change of situation that you that you might have, you know, what, what are some of the thoughts and reflections that you've
had during this period? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well see, to be honest with you, this maybe needs lectures, because there is no reflection or an individual level, there is an inner reflection or reflections on society level. There are reflections on global level, there are reflections on
on psychological issues, there are reflections on financial issues, there are reflections across the board.
By just two quick points, equity points, I think.
on an individual level, I think it was a chance and opportunity for everyone to know his weaknesses and the strengths.
And any, any any honest person, he would know that Oh, no, this is a weakness of mine. And any person he sees also opportunities. Yeah. I'll give you just an example. Just very, very simple example. Many people were brothers in particular, they were preying on time in the massage because the massage to do it when they were closed, then
are they praying as they used to pray? Yeah. Are they engaged in a better as they used to engage? When the other side? It was an opportunity because some people feel that when they do it by themselves, then they would do better? Yeah. Also, you will be more sincere in doing a bad you take another point that how much we help others, because everyone was worried financially about himself about the family. Some people, many people lost their jobs. They lost the income, although even with the fairly low end, thankfully, the government has done Yeah, but it's still it's still some people
suffered such theft and losses, financial losses. However, I have to say that the Muslim community is a community that we need to be proud of here and everyone has to be proud of the Muslim community because all almost all the charities that I came across, whether you know from the because the pandemic has started just before Ramadan, and did you think of one and Ramadan is the time where most of the charities become active in raising funds for their charities. None of the charities complained, although they were worried that the income will be less this time because people lost their jobs, etc. However, most of them are actually maybe
All of them that I come across or I came across, they did very well. So you mean people were giving you mean, people were giving more Southern?
Yes, panel. So this is again, another opportunity that came with the challenge.
Also a globally, people, you know,
really suffered a lot. And they were calling the European Union for help. And the European Union countries, they were not ready for it. And it is just only last week that they have agreed of some, like a plan economy, economy plan to face the consequences of the COVID-19. Yeah, and,
and Italy. That's why there were many calls, even though the president, the Prime Minister of Italy, and many others, they wanted Italy to come out of the EU, because you did not help them. Yeah. See, this is even an international law. On the other side, we see countries like Turkey, for example, have provided medical aid for maybe more than, I don't know, they say 50 countries or something like this. Yeah. I came across some countries that and we know that America, the US. Thank Turkey for sending some medical support. Yeah, the US.
So this is again, another reflection. What is the another dimension of reflection? There was a study by a Danish professor. Yeah. And this study has been quoted in many places. She said this professor said that
the Google search for the word prayer? Yeah. Is Chi rocket. Yeah.
He said, Yes, chi rocket.
And she said, even in non religious countries, such as our means, their country, Denmark.
And, and she analyzed it very deeply. Okay. And she said, Actually, she feels that the number even is higher than the Google search. The number of people who are looking for the word prayer is higher than the Google search. She said, basically, because there are so many old people who are not
maybe what is it the online friendly
or use online?
Searching? And those people are not counted in here to study? Yeah. And they are the people who will be more interested in the word prayer. In my paper, I found that the question of the pandemic is an ethical question in the first place. It is not a financial question. This is not an economic question is not a political person. It is an ethical question. In the first place.
In what way? In what way?
Yeah, in what way? See, we had I mean, the world
had so many pandemics before we have the SARS, the mouse, Ebola, etc. Yes or no? Yeah. But this is the first virus of this family
to cause this lockdown.
Okay, now, why did this lockdown happen? You tell me why did this lockdown up?
Because people governments wanted to protect their economies and the services especially the medical services, okay. Okay. Excellent. They want to protect their people. Yeah. from violence, to to reduce the number of deaths to reduce the number of days, etc. Excellent. Excellent. Excellent. So they want to reduce the number of deaths. But in the on the other side, there was the financial precautions. Yeah. Or consequences. Yes. Yeah. Economic camp, and that the impact on death on the economy and pantries
In the beginning there were there were reluctant, but then yeah, there was a debate anyway. What shall which priority should we
Yani or prioritize
the the economy, the economy or
the the death toll.
Yes or No. And that's why our Prime Minister Joris, Boris Johnson, in the beginning, he said you will lose your loved ones. Yeah. And even United States was late in what? In, in the lockdown and applying the lockdown. Countries like Sweden, for example. They did not have the lockdown until very late. Yeah. And even other countries, India,
Egypt, and so on. Yeah.
But why those who were late and the lockdown, what was the reason? They said, if we applied the lockdown now, early, the economy will suffer. And we will lose more people because of the downtown, the downtown in economy or the downturn in economy or recession in economy, rather than the number of people we will lose? Because of what? Because of the virus? Yeah. So what does that mean?
What does that mean? Now, it is not just a financial question. No, ethically, what should when we face when the world faces this or when different candidates face this? So which priority? Or how do you how do they prioritize you? Do they prioritize short term debts or long term debt? Yeah. So it was like a calculation. It's an ethical calculation that governments had to make.
Exactly. Yeah. And the masala had enough acid? Yeah. homes and, okay, interest. Which one? Should they give weight to? More than the other? You that's all. Otherwise, if it was okay. Yes. There were,
like, you know, the normal flow, the normal flow last.
Last year, I think in 2000, I was doing a study, I think in 2018 or 19 600,000 people around the world died.
Yeah, now, okay.
But in the UK, I think the people who died were 17,000 people or something like this. If I'm not mistaken. I got mixed up with the with the numbers. Yeah. So it is a big number. It's not just one number, by all means.
Yeah. But it's usually spread out, isn't it? Small spread out, spread? It spread out. And no one made a big fuss about it. Yes or no?
Yeah, yeah. Because it will not have that big impact on economy. Yeah, yeah. And they say, yeah, let them die. Because we are not going to lock down the country because 17 people 17,000 people will die.
Yes or no. Otherwise, they can
lock down the countries in order to protect those 17 people. 17,000 people from death.
Yeah, but I think the difference is, isn't it that the pandemic comes suddenly and overwhelmed overwhelms the NHS for example. Right. And there won't be enough hospital beds, there won't be enough facilities at one time. Whereas, because because the flu comes throughout a longer period,
as they say, you know, the curve, the curve is flatter. Right. So
which means that the economy can handle it. So I agree, but there are deaths.
And those deaths in 1000s.
So what so what is the point that you're making? Sure.
So what there are deaths in 1000s? Yeah, yeah. But we did not bother the work didn't bother about those deaths. Because those deaths? Yeah, this negative thing is minor compared what? what they could do? Yeah. So the priority is enough to protect those 17,000. The priority is to protect the economy. Otherwise, they could have done major lockdown in order to protect those 17,000 people. Did you get that? And globally, the world could have been analog lockdown in order to minimize those who die because of the normal virus, the normal flu virus. Yeah, but because they say well, it's
is impossible to lock down the globe. And we will suffer from economic recession and, okay consequences. So let them die those 600,000 people, we cannot do anything. Again, it's done.
Maybe lockdown isn't considered to be the best response to it. Like, for example, there are new jobs, like, you know, other other things that governments do. Yeah. But but they know that the flu jobs etc They will not stop these deaths.
Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, I feel like
it's a very difficult calculation to make actually, you know, souls excellent, this is my point exactly. So, it is a difficult calculation. And the whole point is what an ethical question. Yeah. What shall we Yeah, they are the priority should be given to us to save 600,000 people or to save the global economy.
And because the test dole or that the death toll is not that high, oh, yeah. 600,000 people where are they are going to die anyway, so let them die, but we cannot lock down the entire world, and the economy cannot be, you know,
destroyed, because we want to protect number of people. So anyway, this is my, my own conclusion. I don't know, maybe I haven't explained it well, okay. But this is my own, do you feel you feel you feel that economics is always put above
life? I have a different view. Yeah. The view now is everything is controlled by emotion. You know, they used to say that the conspiracy theories, etc, etc. Now, if you analyze deeply what is going on in the world, you will see that emotions. Yeah. Yeah, even like public public perception and public relations and exactly how the public will react. Exactly. That's it. That is the number one controller of everything that is going on in the world, it is not media even is controlled by emotion, because media knows that if it responds to the emotions of people in a particular way, then people will read more, so knew the outward gain more economy if they respond in the right way to the
emotions of the masses. Yeah. For example, in a look, for example, George Floyd, killing, yeah, murder.
Yeah.
There are hundreds of people who are killed in every day in,
in the world, and even in America. Yes or no. Yeah.
But why this took bigger momentum.
Think, bigger coverage. I think one of the reasons is because now it's being filmed and you know, spread much more, you know, so things like that were happening, but sometimes until you see it in front of your own eyes, until you see the the inhumanity and the injustice happened right in front of your eyes. You. You tend to ignore things. Yeah. Which is what emotion? Yes or no?
Yes, or no emotion, but it's also based on information. Right, like, I agree. I agree. Yeah, information, of course, is a basic need. But what makes what makes this information? Yeah, what makes this work? What what makes this important information more of maybe have an influence on people? If the information is emotional?
It has an emotional impact. Yeah, in fact, affects us emotionally. I guess it's because of the huge long history in you know, America of these things. And that shift hasn't it always been like this, like, even when you read about the key lifts the Islamic you know, honey furs of the past and then put it in politics. People have always been very cognizant of public perceptions, public opinion. I mean, for example, when we were studying the herbicides and the Omega as you know, we found that I mean, literally, the philosopher's would execute people who they feared what
and showing them public support, Because? Because it would affect the masses. Right? So isn't this just a part of politics? And it always has been a emotions? Yeah, is among the
very key primary factors that influence people's decisions. That's true shift. And that brings me to one of the topics I wanted to ask you about. And that is, one of the things that I like to focus on when I'm speaking to sisters is about
their role. Okay. In the wider Muslim community, our role as Muslim women in the in the wider I would say, the cause of Islam, right.
And one of the things that, like, recently a lot of people have been inviting me to speak about is the hijab, right? And, you know, because it, although on the positive side of things, the hijab has become very normal, you know, like, yeah, I'll tell you that when when I was a kid, like in the 80s, my mom was the only woman that we knew who wore hijab, right? Like, there were lots of Muslims. Oh,
yeah.
There were lots of Muslims. There were lots of Muslims. Yeah, in the UK, but most of them either through ignorance, or just trying to not not stand out, you know?
They wouldn't, they wouldn't wear hijab, right? And so my mom was one of the first people that we, I knew in my whole community, you know, in who I ever saw wearing hijab, and me as well, like, at school, I was the only girl wearing Hijab in my secondary school. It was quite it. At that time, it was very difficult, I would say, because, like, Yeah, when we walk on the streets, every time we pass by a white person, my mom is somebody they used to swear at, my mom will say something, you know, they said something racist, racist, even at school, like, we were made fun of, and, you know, we have to be like, I would say,
the trailblazers in many ways, you know, like, so often after me, I remember, more and more girls started wanting to jump right, in the following in the following years, because people, I think the nature of people is, as you've mentioned, you know, we look at other people, and when things become normal, we feel comfortable to do them. So. So what I'm trying to say is it from my perspective, having witnessed what it was like in the 80s in the, and then the 90s,
there is a very positive thing that's happened, which is that his job is very normal, especially on the streets of London, etc, right? So that's, that's on the plus side.
On the negative side, the media as well as I would say,
the fashion industry has also jumped on to, you know, this market if you like, and they and they do see the job and Muslim women as a market. And, and
although having representations of Muslim women in the media,
who wear hijab, one could argue that also has a positive effect, right, because it kind of normalizes it, at the same time.
You can see that the media and being in the media being in the spotlight being in that space of I would say fashion and fame. Yeah, yeah. causes it causes sisters, either knowingly or unknowingly to start compromising on the hijab, right? And then yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, no, no, we see that. The hijab is almost treated like an accessory, you know, that you just wear on your head, right? Just like, yeah, yeah. Another another decoration or something. Right? Yeah, many people. So
the one of the things that I try to highlight sisters is, and I wanted to know, your thoughts about this, is that you know, even from colonialists times
the hijab, although the hijab is not the only symbol of religiousness, right? You can't say that, you know, a woman who doesn't wear hijab, you know, she's doomed or something like this. She's not a Muslim. We don't say that, of course. But still, the hijab has always been a symbol of, I would say, a woman's adherence to at the end, right. It's Yeah, it's just a fact. Right? Because obviously, a lot of times Allah has commanded us to, and it's very visible. And so it's always been a symbol. And when you look at like, what happened in colonialist times, for example, in Algeria, you know, there's lots of examples there. of how the French
really focused on the Muslim women. And, you know, like, divorcing them, I would say, from the hijab divorcing them from this, you could say symbol of Islam or symbol of adherence to Islam. Yeah.
And they saw that as a political strategy, right? They saw that as a means to, to, I would say conquering Muslim culture, infiltrating the Muslim mind and changing the whole society. And I think what that kind of shows you is the power that women have, you know, and even, even people who would like to change.
They saw the power that women have, because if you can change a woman and her level of adherence to her, then yes, you change the rest of the woman, because obviously, she's going to the next generation. So, so one of the things I was like, highlight two sisters is be aware that what's happening, although we feel happy that Oh, look, you know, your job is normal, like, you know, like, is quite happy. It's quite nice that now that you can go to a shop, it's quite nice that you can go to a shop, even like a high street shop, and you can buy, you know, modest clothing, you can buy clothing use and so that is nice. But at the same time, I feel like Muslim women are being targeted.
To kind of water down slowly, there. commitment to the job is and it's not, it's not just about the job. Is that wider to the dean, I want your thoughts on that. And okay, this is this is interesting what you're talking about. Okay. Am
I, you know, now, sister Fatima.
My biggest worry now, for our own and for the world for humanity is what
is marriage breakdown?
This is my biggest worry. Yeah. Okay. This is like any tweaks. So this is number three, number one. Number two.
I strongly believe that women are from certain aspects are stronger than men.
Yeah. And there is nothing called unconditional comparison. They are stronger from all aspects, or they are weaker from all aspects. This doesn't exist in this life. Yeah. Because alchemical complete perfection is only for Allah Delilah. Yeah. So it is from one side, from one angle, not from the other angle. So I believe that women are stronger than men from many angles. And those angles make them more even in influential, which is what you have mentioned. Yeah. And I'll give you just a simple example.
The number of men who committed suicide before because they lost their loved girls or partners or wives or girlfriends. Yeah. is bigger than the number of women who committed suicide because of
men.
Okay, yeah. So, so who is weaker than the other? Yeah, the male or the female?
Well, we can just say that they have different psychologies. Right. I agree. I agree. But, but, but if we want to look at it, okay, from the outset, oh, you had a lot more people committed suicide? Yeah. Because their loved girls left them. Yeah. Then women who committed suicide? Yeah.
And, okay, point number four or five. I have interviewed so many younger children who memorized or are
asking them about the key reason for memorizing Quran and all of them say or most of them say it is because of their mothers.
Yeah. Okay.
Point number six, reflection. Number six. Imagine take a scenario of a very influential person. I always say that maybe he is like the, the
main person for the transportation system in London little sick. Yeah. And he had
meeting a very important meeting in the morning. So, we have two missionaries in the morning he woke up and he found his wife ready prepared breakfast for him and she said to him darling come down here have some breakfast and he said hey, I have a very important meeting, we are going to decide for a new system for transportation in London. And she said Yeah, and I have is this close for you Okay, take this tie, etc. And he is going to go for the meeting. And on the other scenario, this same person, he woke up and he went down, he says, he was looking for his wife, his wife was not there or she was sleeping. And he said, darling, I have a very important meeting I want my breakfast she said
I had enough with you every time you wake me up, you want a breakfast, go just pick any
any cup of tea or any coffee with with corazones and just okay. And when you come back, you will not find me I will leave with the children, I had enough with you. And then this person he left to his meeting, which one will be performing better in this important decision? An important meeting meeting?
Number one, number two,
of course the one who has a peaceful, nice home and yes relationship with his wife. See,
on another point, from my observation, because I deal with marriages, and yeah, marriage breakdown, etc. If husband and wife if there is a family? And if there is a family? Yeah, husband and wife, the wife, the wife is a very good mother. She's looking after the children looking after the husband.
And she's focused she knows what she wants to do, etc. If the husband is an evil man,
see evil man is still the family will function well, maybe not perfect. Yeah, the family will function well and it is very likely that the children will be raised in a very good way. Take the opposite.
If the husband is the best man and the world and his wife is the evil one.
Yeah.
What will happen to the children, it is very, very hard for the man to raise them up in a good condition. saying that the what the mother and the wife are pivotal to the
to the family right?
To the life
to their life.
Yeah, to the entire life. And I was reflecting why the Prophet sallallahu wasallam put so much emphasis on women and them being women, females, wives, mothers, etc. Why even the whole and
how many times Elijah Allah Allah praise businesswoman so many times All right, a lot of praise. Women who are leaders Yeah. How many times on the other side? How many times have I Delilah praise women as mothers as as wives? Yeah. inshallah. harryman Allah Allah Allah says, What about la mesilla Lila vena cava. Murata new Hey Mama, it looks Canada. Everything in the na sala Haney for HANA Tahoma lm yo Nia and home in Iowa located for another man definitely more a lot of Aloma felony Latina Amano in Rotherham. Yeah, so the those examples, those praiseworthy
examples on models of women, which is likely the P is one is a wife of around. Yeah, and the other one is a mother of the mother of a mother. Yeah, because of her chastity and for looking after a son. So
why now? The entire world and you know, I'm now preparing this course, the 12 qualities of the 12 qualities of successful people.
And I am reviewing so many lists of successful people. You don't find a single listed that mentioned a lady because she was a mother. You understand sushi sushi. This is a
Important point that you brought up. I want to ask you from a different perspective. Yeah.
So I completely I can see that the drive to kind of, I would say make women participate in the economy in a more direct way, right?
has made societies around the world
kind of make up human beings worth based on their economic contribution, right? Like, I mean, tangible, very clear economic contribution, because of, of course, mothers and wives do make an economic contribution, but it's just, it's not something you can tax, right. Like, they're not going to pay taxes, right. So I can definitely see that governments and society has kind of is pushing women to become, you know, people who earn money and pay taxes and concerned with outside the home, okay. At the same time, isn't it true that
two things, one that sometimes it feels like
some of the scholars and especially Muslim like speakers, etc,
emphasize motherhood and emphasize like being a wife, okay, without taking into account that women are of all different backgrounds, women, you know, of all different financial backgrounds, economic backgrounds, but also cultural backgrounds. Okay. And personalities.
And although you could focus on like, the fact that okay, motherhood has been praised in the Quran, and that's a wonderful thing. You know, that's a great thing that one of the things about Islam is that allows women to be feminine to be women and doesn't, doesn't degrade or lower that status of being a mother, being a wife, etc. But at the same time, they were women, you know, we have a shot at the law on her. We have other women, who are great women of the time of the prophet SAW Selim, who, for example, with Ayesha demand, she wasn't a mother. So she focused her talents, especially like the prophet SAW, Selim passed away when she was 18. Right or something. So we're talking about
a life that was like, another 40 years long or more right?
in which she devoted herself to teaching, for example, right.
And she's not she's not just an anomaly, if you look at different women throughout history, even the example of you know, the wife of Pharaoh, and Khadija and others it of course, they were wives. But isn't the main thing that made them great. The fact that whatever situation Allah gave them in life, they rose to the occasion, they did the right thing, they acted in the right way. rather than it being connected to a particular role, like being a mother or being a wife. Do you see what I'm saying? So for example, with money on a salon, I think the thing that made her great was that Allah put a big test on her right, a big responsibility and a big test.
And,
and she was a true worship over lunch of somebody who worshiped a lot, lot, right? She was from the community and right so she was very, very devoted to worshiping Allah. And so Allah chose her and he gave her a big test. And she rose to that test and she fulfilled her role in that test. So it's not per se that she was a mother. It's more whatever situation Allah gives you in life. That you rise to that situation. Okay. Clear. Okay. Even the point of live okay. But you Yeah, you just said it. Okay, that
the whatever, whatever a status that Elijah Lala, or position, Allah, Allah, Allah put you
in, and what is the main position? That Allah Allah, Allah put women in?
Yeah, so for most Muslim women, they will be a wife and they will be I don't know. A woman. Okay. Women in general.
Yeah, yeah. Even hunting. Yeah, animals, I think almost in the entire world. They if they allow hunting in certain periods, they wouldn't allow hunting females.
Yeah, yeah. Okay. Why?
Because females can
Do one thing that others cannot do it, which is what producing the coming generation.
Yeah. So position natural position number one of female.
Yeah, with a human beings or other living beings is what?
To produce the coming generation.
So why is this be? Why is this biblical now?
Yeah, you know, look, now, if they cannot be mothers for whatever reason, then yes, they have hundreds of things that they can do. That is the exception, but now, we are making the exception as the ruling, and we are making the ruling as the exception. Not only we are making the general ruling as the exception, but we are belittling Denver polling. Yeah. And we are not at least acknowledging that this is priority number one. This is the general ruling.
I am saying at least at least let us acknowledge that they're most important job of females. Yeah. Is what motherhood whenever I mentioned this, then people say yeah, but there are sisters who did not get married. Okay. Okay. Come on. Why, you know, when people have reaction like this, it means that they have something. Yeah, they are not. Again, they are discussing discussing things in an emotional way. They're not discussing things in a rational way. Yeah. Okay. So, because of the way we've been brought up, you know, like, I'll give you an example. Even myself, I was brought up in a religious family, right. But yeah, I would say, I had like three little babies. And, and I was kind
of busy at home. And, but before that, I was like, very, I would say, high flying at school, you know, like, I was the top student. I was a straight A student. And so, going from that. So what I'm trying to say is, from a young age as girls, right, we are brought up to be very focused on outside the home, you know, in the West specialist, yeah, yeah, this is, and this is now t fathima. This is an international agenda. So So I remember, like, when I was then when I then became a mother, of course, I wanted to be a mother, I want to be a wife. But when when the reality of that kind of the difficult part of that, that role kind of hits home, okay.
I would say there were periods when I would like say to my dad, for example, I would say, Dad, you know,
what's my legacy going to be? Right? And I remember asking my dad that, and he pointed at my children. And he said, What do you think these are? You know, he said, What do you think these children are, you know, they are your legacy and your greatest legacy. So, exactly the times, sometimes we like, as I would say, girls brought up in the West, especially.
First of all, we've, we've been allowed, we, we have had the opportunity to express our talents
and develop our talents outside the home. Right? And probably we've developed them more than our talents inside the home. Right? Yeah. And then when the reality of motherhood and being a wife and building a home
hits us, even if you're from a religious family, even if you're from a very traditional family is hard, you know, raising children is hard. And you need a very high level of motivation to do that. Okay, great. Okay. But at the same time, wouldn't you say that it's just a cultural thing as well. Like, the fact that we've been brought up like, chef and another aspect of this is,
I think, you know, like, as I've gotten older, so now my children are a lot older, right?
I wouldn't say they don't need me, I do think that they need me and I do think that the as a mother, you have to focus on the home and etc. However, human beings have different personalities, right.
And for me,
I've got a lot of things that I would like to do outside the home as well, right?
I don't really look at it like that inside and outside. I just think this is just me. I just, you know, for example, I've always been involved in Dallas since I was a child at school. You know, I've been interested in our been talking to people about Islam, and it almost becomes what I'm trying to say is human beings have different personalities and different talents, right.
To a certain extent,
that needs expression and if it isn't expressed people
can get depressed? You know, I feel like the fact that Allah subhanaw taala put that desire in me. I'm not saying my desires, like as in, you know what, I'm not saying that. I mean, that he gave me that talent, you know, and that he gave me that motivation, right? The fact that I've got that, isn't that in itself an indication that, you know, so Pamela has created each of us with different personalities, different propensities. And we're not always going to be in that situation of, you know, having little children for example, right. Um, okay. Yeah, let's see parking again. You are giving more space to the exception.
We are not talking about Yeah, we are not talking enough about the mothers and being a mother and the role of a mother. Yeah. Which is, as I said, priority number one, which should have this page, you are just saying, Yeah, yeah, but there are sisters who have this talent outside, and they are this and that, and even when they were their children grow up, etc. And we are not speaking about how to become a mother How to Prepare to be a mother how to raise the children in the right way, and how to deal with the husband, our hand how to check out to balance between the husband and the children and how to face the challenges of, of the outside and the impact of that on your children.
We are not talking about all of these things. And we are just talking about some exceptions that my children grew up now. And, and also myself, and I feel that myself, I have this talent that I always want to do this and that we are not talking about hundreds of or 1000s, or maybe hundreds of 1000s of women who became depressed because they are not mothers. Yeah, it's true. Of those mothers who were mothers. Yeah. And they did not see they become depressed. Because and this is now becoming a phenomena, by the way. Yeah, I found it, that they feel after, after a number of children, they see that they haven't achieved a lot in their life. And as your father told you, this is your legacy to
your children. Now, not many fathers are saying this to you, to their, to their, to their daughters, yeah, we are not talking about that. In other words, if we were to raise and,
and promote and give motherhood and being a wife, the place it deserves, then sisters wouldn't feel that it was they wouldn't belittle it in their minds, right. And society was literally it would be more fulfilling, it would lead to more well actually would lead to more motivated mothers, more motivated, found athlete, like one of the things I like to say to sisters is, you know, make family your finest project, you know,
just as a person has a project, where, you know, the managing a project outside, you know, in a business or something, and that they have all these different things that they do in order to make sure that project is successful.
I feel like unfortunately, like you said, Because motherhood is seen like as like a thing on the side, or something that you do around your real job, right?
What happens is we don't look at it as a project and then when something goes wrong, or when things start going wrong, or when we've been neglectful, and things go wrong, we wonder like what happened, you know, because nobody, nobody told us that this is a very worthy, meaningful and important, if not the most important thing that you're ever going to do. Exactly. Raising human beings of the future. But can I can I say one of the things I noticed, like in when I went to Malaysia, I was speaking about motherhood.
And, you know, some of it by the way, some of the things I just mentioned to you. I'm mentioning to you, as you know, like to kind of advocate I would say not not
because I necessarily believe those things, but you know, it is something to think about, you know, that you know, sisters something that sisters often say But yeah, the point I was making about Malaysia and when I gave a speech about motherhood there and the importance of the early years because I do feel very strongly that little babies should not be being looked after by strangers, you know, should not be being looked after.
by people who don't don't love them basically. Right. Yeah. And at least up to us actually naturally love them. Yes, not
Either mother or father, grandparents, you know, for most people, they are for many people, they are literally putting their little babies into
daycare where a stranger who's paid less than the minimum wage or the minimum wage is, yeah, look after them. And they think, yeah, they think that that's gonna be as good as them bringing them up, right? Yeah, absolutely, definitely. I know that from a psychological perspective, you know, it's harmful for kids. There's no, no two ways about it, you know, even many books about this. So that's fine. So when I was talking about that in Malaysia, and I was really surprised because it's a Muslim country, right. A few sisters came up to me afterwards, and they said, and they were really like, affected by the talk. And they said, Sister 5 million are really like, what you said really
resonated with us. Okay? Yeah, one of them. For example. She had a baby with her six months old. She said, You know what, sister? Father, I want to stay at home. Okay. I want to stay at home. I just had a baby. What's the point of having a baby If I'm just gonna leave the baby now? Right. Yeah. Because I have a degree. Yeah, I have this qualification. My husband, my husband, forget about anyone else. Right. Yeah. My husband and my parents in law. Yeah, are putting so much pressure on me to go back to work. They're saying to me, Well, back to what we look after the, you know, the the parents in law saying we're going to go back to work. And she said, Well, I don't want to I want to
breastfeed. I want to, you know, I don't feel ready to go back, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And so, Jeff, there is this phenomenon as well now in the community, whether men are literally telling sisters, their wives, and they're not embarrassed to tell us
to basically go out to work. Right. And it is.
It is,
it is, this is an international agenda.
Yeah. And it is very unfortunate that the people who are going against this wave, or these waves are very, very few in numbers. And you know, if they want to talk about an enlightened dairy or Muslim, yeah. Or he's an open minded person, the first thing when they want to describe him is Yeah, and his wife, she had this job, and his wife is in the front in this. And he is promoting women to work. And he's promoting sisters to take leading positions, etc, etc. Who is Yeah, praise fluffy? Because he is pushing for the motherhood agenda. Yeah, no one. Yeah, no one. And even in Malaysia, because I visited Malaysia a few times. And recently I spent, like, Good time in the Malaysian summit in
December. Yeah. The thing is, the if they are country wants to talk about enlightenment, etc. They are talking even me this is one of the things that worries me about Turkey now. Yeah, as they say, and our women, they are taking leading positions in this place, and that place, etc, etc. And they don't know that by doing this, they are destroying the value of motherhood within women. Yeah. And isn't it the United Nations? I think this is because of the United Nations because, yes, yes.
United this United Nations, they published this list of kind of things that a country has to achieve, if they want to be seen as developed and you know, like, Yes, exactly. guarding, especially women. And one of those things that is very much promoted is exactly that. So So basically, countries tried to sort of show off and say, we're meeting we're meeting these United Nations, yes. And
without realizing the
art of destroying themselves. This drive is due to because I thought, I thought the reason why this drive is there is for economic purposes, right? So instead of having instead of having one, you know, half of the population working and they're paying the taxes right, you get twice as many people working, you can pay them less right. So that the the salaries go down, you have twice the number of workers and and they both pay taxes, right.
What is the reason is it that always
population control. What is there? Just one by one?
Yeah, one by one, first of all regarding the concept of whether it is right or wrong, which is to push women into
the industry, different industries and leading position, etc. Yeah. Now, see.
And and and that the fact that many Muslim countries unfortunately are following this now
first of all, when Western countries Yeah, they were post post enlightenment and post French Revolution Industrial Revolution. Yeah. And those Western countries who, you know, the rebel to themselves and they became
superpowers and they became developed countries and their economy is one of the top 20 when they started
did they push women into work like this?
Or they stop opted with the traditional families. Just 100 years ago the norm was the norm was, you know,
family traditional familiarity? Yeah, the traditional family mother at home, the father's father's income would support the entire family.
Yeah, it's a draft. Yeah. Okay. This is an all these countries. So, see people sometimes are very shallow in their approach. Yeah. So, in order for you to develop,
you should discard as others started or you should take lessons from the way others they started. You should not come to after development. What is their situation now? Yeah. And then we need to copy that. No, but you are copying them? After they have developed? You should copy them in the way they developed. Did you get that?
Yeah. But I think in the West, it was also due to the war due to millions of men being killed. You know,
I agree. I mean, having to go to the factories and doing those jobs. And then after the war didn't really ever change back, you know, in a way. And then the feminist movement.
Definitely, there was like a belittling of motherhood belittling of traditional roles. And then the sexual revolution where they basically told the marriage even right, and so yeah, yeah. So then it's all about
later, say, Billiton family values. Yeah. My point is, yeah, belittling family violence, because many people say that. They don't call it belittling family values. But let us say, because of time, belittling family values, is it the way to build great civilizations?
Great, great civilizations, were built based on family values, once they were built, and they became great civilizations, and now they have nothing to think about. Or maybe there are different agendas. They started to believe their family values. Yeah. Well, when they started, you could even say, when they started moving away from God, when they started moving away from from the value of human life, even, you know, that's when Yeah, I agree. I agree. I agree. So now, so some people, okay. Like, like, see, like, some younger children. They want to be rich. Yeah. And they see some rich people go are relaxing in big houses, etc, etc. What do they want? Easy money. They don't look how those rich
people were working hard. when they were young. And when they were young. They were even in cleaning the streets doing any kind of job in order to climb the ladder. Yes or No, they don't look at this. They look at Oh, now he has a big house. And he's relaxing. And he's spending this and he's buying these brands, etc. and they start thinking Oh, let me buy these brands. Let me do this. Let me relax. Let me travel. This is how the way how these rich people are behaving. Yes, they are behaving like this. Now after they became rich, but
when they were young like you,
yeah, how they were conducting themselves? Did you get to the point? Yeah.
So you're saying
that civil great civilizations are built on the foundation of a strong families. Then later maybe when they become any, you know, from when they've learnt and when they have luxury, and then they might become negligent and etc. But it's exactly what I would go so far as to say,
when people get and this is, by the way, this is my second point. Sorry. Yeah. And now because they become relaxed, you check it out, and as you've been doing, say, then the decline will stop. Okay, mine starts right. I was gonna say that, you know, when people look at certain countries, and they feel impressed by them, right. Yeah. So like, I remember when I was a student in Egypt, sometimes people in Egypt and even in India, you know, they're very impressed by
Britain, right. The idea of Britain, you know, yes. Wow, you're from Britain. This is a Ottoman Britannia, you know, like, yeah, you know, a job, like, you know, they thought, what kind of, you know, they have a certain image of Britain and how successful it is. And I would say, you know, like the poet, a cabal? Yeah. He used to say, because he lived in the West, he lived in Britain, and he lived in different European countries. And then he went back to India. And then he helped build Pakistan, right. One of the things he always used to say in his poetry is this civilization that looks so shiny on the outside. Yeah. is empty inside is empty inside. And that's one of the like,
running themes in a lot of his poems that he was trying to say to the people of the East. Yeah, yeah. That look, I've lived in right in amongst this, these people. Right. And what looks to you very shiny, very developed, you know, they say very developed, you know?
Actually, it's the shiny exterior, you know, it's like a present the wrapping on the outside. what's what's on the inside? Is there is a lot of rot on the inside. But it's just not very visible to people, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, this is absolutely the case. And even say, Cooper mentioned something like this as well, when he stayed in America for some time. See, the I was going to say that if someone says, Yeah, but look at them now. I said, No. Now, it is very unfortunate that many of them are living on their past. Yeah. Living on their legacy. And if they continue living like this, yeah, after some time, they will suffer from Okay, they will start declining. And someone
says, oh, say so I said, Look, just look at one thing, one element on the birth rate, the birth rate, exactly. Why did why did Angular Merkel, why was Angular Merkel so happy to have immigrants? Yes, because the birth rate in Germany is very big. And you know, and as you mentioned, Germany, yeah. One of the brothers is from Germany. I told him I should migrate to Germany, man. Yeah. He takes eight months. paternally.
Eight months TV. Really? Yeah. Paid. Okay. I think this was the first HR the second time did they become six? And then I said, What? Any that if you have a child, most of your time, you don't?
You don't work? I said, Well, it will be a job to adjust to produce children. So you mean they're trying to incentivize you they're trying to make Yes, yes. Yes. Yes. putting so much incentives in order to encourage people to Okay, and you have heard what happened in
Austria? Is it Austria, Austria, Austria, when many Syrian immigrants they were coming in, and then the parliament discussed this and they said, Why do we need to have Syrian immigrants let us encourage our women to have children and they said that the family that have four children, they will receive this much salary and this watch much in sensitive etc. Yeah. Okay. Bart, and the See, and even in Britain here in the official book, that is, has to be studied to become neutralized. They say we are an aging country,
whereby the number of people who are above 65 is far bigger than the number
A lot of people, what is bigger than the number of people less than 16? Why is this happening?
I think there's lots of reasons. One is, one is that marriage is not even on people's agendas. And you know, women women are encouraged to spend the youngest all their 20s basically, you know, working, they delay delay marriage, they delay settling down with somebody and having children.
Also, child, the fact that you can delay childbirth now, right, because of contraceptives off most of these, most of these are most of these reasons. Go back to Okay, damaging family value. Yeah, so the family not no longer being the priority and not no longer being seen as a, like I said, a project right and worthy works out great as your lifetime project as your legacy. Okay, what is the percentage of young people consuming alcohol? Sorry, drugs in the UK?
Yeah, there are no exact figures. Some statistics confirm that may be 50% of them. Some say less, some say more. But definitely, it is a big number. Yes or no? Yeah.
Yeah. Everywhere you hear drugs, drugs and drugs, yes or no? Yeah. Why is this?
Because there are no family values. The boys when they leave the, okay, when they leave the schools, they leave at three o'clock their mothers will come home at six o'clock, seven o'clock, and she's not ready for them.
There's nobody keeping an eye on what's happening. Tell on that. There is no one to keep an eye on them.
Yeah, let alone marriage break down. Even the there was a report about the housing crisis. Yeah, I don't want someone to quote me because I forgot the figures. This was quite long time ago. And they said one of the key reasons for housing crisis is one single parents.
Because they in many councils in the UK,
the single parents are occupying maybe more than one quarter of the houses.
Had the families been there. So this one quarter has been saved.
Yeah. And this is just one more point. Yeah. Okay. You said that economy will improve. Yeah. When, when both has been unwise work. Yeah. I mean, that's what what they say PC joy. They actually there are many studies. Again, it is quite long, that confirm that. No, that is not true, that when both parents
work, the economy will improve. Maybe on a minor on a man on a micro short term. Yes. Husband and wife, they feel it. But on a macro level. This is not true. Yeah. I said it depends on how you're measuring success, right? Like, if it's purely on how many taxes are coming in, for example, then you might think that, but if you're looking at the overall well being of society, the crime rate is the number of children dropping out or committing suicide or if you're factoring all of those things in then you would realize that mothers and mothers who, especially who are devoted to their children and their families have a massive economic contribution, but maybe just can't count it. You just
can't count it in monetary terms. You know, it's not easy to get this. That is the point. And I remember reading
a statement by one of the Nobel prizes, winners in economy. Yeah. And that was really amazing. His statement. He said one of the reasons for the I think he was talking about the 2008. recession. Yeah. Or the five one anyway, one of them is the fact he said that could have been resolved if men are doing their jobs as men, women are they're doing their jobs as housewives looking after the families. Yeah. And he went on he was explaining why this recession is taking place from a macro economy perspective. Yeah, as you said. So to say that well, this improves the country.
To me, that is not true. I think I think that definitely there's now there's two things I want to mention. One is that, definitely that, you know, motherhood, being belittled and well, actually that, you know, there's this psychologist, Professor Jordan Peterson.
One of the things he was not the American
American.
critical about about feminism. He's Canadian. Yeah. And, yeah, from the University of Toronto, and one of the things that he was saying is, we lie to women, right? He said, we've taught women a lie, the lie is that, that they're never going to basically, you know, want to be mothers, or that they never, that they can delay motherhood, right. And they can keep delaying it. And so that's why he says, you know, that's why, like, by the age of about 30, something, a lot of women drop out of work, or they lower their, they reduce their hours of work, and they don't want to become CEOs. And they don't want to become because they realize that the clock is ticking, right. And they need to
settle down, they need to have, if they want to have babies, there's a limited amount of time, right for them to do that. And for them to get married and, and getting married, finding a man, etc. All of that takes, takes time. Right and takes a level of Yeah, yeah. So he was saying that we lie to women and girls, right? telling them that motherhood is just going to be this little thing that, you know, and I think that's that's kind of what we're, what I was, I like, as a as a girl. I'll tell you, in my school, Chef, we did this exercise, okay, because the problem is in the West, because marriage has been belittled so much. teenage pregnancies, and pregnancies outside of marriage,
especially young girls was a very big problem that in the 90s, it was Britain was the biggest country, the country that had the highest number of teenage pregnancies, right. I remember that into I also I think I was delivering a lecture and I was making, I think that was on 2003 as well. Yes. So you know, can I tell you what my school did? I went to a girls school in Barnet. Yeah. And the state school and our teachers, everyone was obviously very, like, promote, trying to get us to become career women. Right? That was the main thing, right? They wanted us to be successful career women. And one of the things they did, you're not going to believe this. Okay. This is like a social
experiment. This sounds like a social experiment. They they got us to they gave us each an egg, an egg, you know, like, a raw egg. Okay. And they told the girls that as an exercise, we had to look after that egg for the whole week. Okay. Ah, okay. We have to carry that egg with us in our bags. Okay. So basically, we have to, we have to wrap it in cotton wool, and we have to build something around it to make it protected. Okay. Yeah, we have to carry that egg with us everywhere we go for one week. Okay. Yeah. And it sounds really stupid now. But the purpose of this exercise was to put us off motherhood. Okay. It was to prevent teenage pregnancies. Okay.
And whenever I tell people like, who are from the east, this, they're like, really shocked in that. Oh, my God, you know, like, sounds so backward. You know, it sounds so. But can you imagine they were trying to make us feel how difficult it is to carry an egg with us all week.
to somehow represent motherhood. It's so hard to have a baby. Right? Okay. Yeah. And so undesirable as well. Yeah. So you can you can imagine that, if that has been ingrained in you now. Okay. You know, so Pamela, like, even just like a few weeks after I left school, my wife got married. And my sister met one of my teachers from school. And she said, Oh, how's Fatima and Ashley doing, you know, Where is she now? You know, because they thought, probably high flying University, you know, because I was one of the students. And my sister said, Oh, she's just had a baby, right? And my sister said the lady like her face looks so like, shocked, you know, like, Oh, God, you know, like,
as if we didn't bring these girls up to become mums, you know, at the age of age of 20. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. for them. It's like seen as Oh, this is a failure. Right? But that's because, because for them that they have a problem of teenage pregnancies, which is pregnancies outside.
of marriage, where when the male is not taking any responsibility, and the poor girl is basically left with the bait literally carrying the baby.
So because of that problem, they kind of generalize this. One of the things they did was to generalize this kind of anti motherhood, motherhood. Yeah. Yeah. But you can just see from that little experiment, like, that's gonna have that's gonna have a psychological effect on the girls. Right? Yeah, and a negative effect. So. So on the one hand, I completely can see what you're saying. But you know, motherhood should not be something that is a side project. It shouldn't be presented to girls as if it's not going to be a very important and central part of their life. Okay. At the same time, Chef, like, wouldn't you say that? What you're saying is a bit unrealistic for for real
families living right now? What are you advocating? So for example, a typical thing that sisters will say, or people will say, when when they hear our discussion is, you don't understand like, the bills, you don't understand how much it costs to pay our mortgage, or whatever it is, whatever. You know, costs there are for living nowadays, right? We can't live on one income. That's that's one thing a lot of people say. Another thing is, aren't you? Or doesn't it sometimes sound like you
focus too much on the sisters. Right?
When in fact, like I mentioned the example of Malaysia, right, the sisters, number of sisters who came to me and said, Oh, our family, especially the even the men, they told us to go back to work, they want us to have to earn money, right? Yeah, I'm on you overly focusing on the sisters. Generally, when we talk about this topic, and doesn't it need to come from the men as well. So if a man is stepping up, if he sees it, as you know, this is my responsibility. Is it shame on me, shame on me that I'm sending my wife out to work, you know, if I if I have not exhausted all the efforts that I could myself first, right? Yeah. Yeah. If we don't instill that mentality in the boys and the
men, then how can it change? You know, is Yeah, I just wanted you to address those two points, you know, the fact that the cost of living is so high, are you saying that people should have zip code now and just like, I get it, okay, first of all, okay. See, let us talk about economy. Just briefly and in response to your question.
From Hana, Allah,
Allah, Allah, Allah, Allah, first of all, he created this life in a way that Elijah Allah Allah made that there are some tangible, materialistic reasons that will lead to outcome.
And there are also non tangible reasons that lead to certain outcome, either either outcomes are the same.
However, in certain for certain outcomes.
Sometimes they're not the tangible reasons are more important. And sometimes the non tangible reasons are more important. Is this clear? idea? This idea, is it clear?
I think so.
Okay. So, with with that is?
Yeah. The non tangible reasons are more important than the tangible
the metaphysical, you're saying the metaphysical, okay. It isn't are more important than the physical risk
with risk.
And this doesn't, yani doesn't appeal except to believe. Yeah. And that's why there is a challenge, I agree that there is a chance, but let us talk about believer. Yeah, we just talk about believers. Of course, here with risk and with the economy. In particular, the non tangible or the metaphysical reasons are connected to the physical reason and I will explain that in a minute. But if you read Quran and Sunnah,
you will see that there is a link to the taqwa.
Yeah, it is easy link to a spending more for the sake of Allah Allah Allah. This is the link to his pending in use firm
for useful reason.
Yeah. Okay. One may attack Allaha Gallo Maharajah What?
And sort of develop will resume in his life. The one may attack aloha aloha
way out.
And he provides him and why delana called himself or was up in Omaha or was able to overcome he shape and
the shape and promises you poverty? Yeah. What Allahu Yeah, it will come up for me. No, Allah promises you for giving us an increase in risk in this dunya Allah Allah Allah also says, Well Anna, hello Cora as the people of the townspeople Allah, Allah, Allah, Allah, Allah, Allah would open the Baraka, the Baraka of heavens and earth, but they did not believe that's why Allah Allah, Allah with
Allah, Allah Allah spoke to us about Chiba Yeah, nama. And because when they did that, when they had
neglected the Nana of Elijah Lada and they did not appreciate the name of Allah Jalla Allah and they this believe in Allah, Allah Allah in a way that entails the rejection of his favor upon them out although for other sending him say that it needs to be done from beginning the thing that then I painted out that occurred in Hong Kong as well as he didn't
wish I am in Sydney. When they turn their backs against Allah, Allah Allah Allah Allah Allah took the risk from them. Okay, and there are so many in when the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam came to Medina
and he added his people he said, Are you honest if she said, I'm not a mocha masala lady when the Sunni and the Apollo janitor, we set up all mankind he address everyone. And this hadith is one of the miracles of the of Sharia, by the way, full of medical, not just one medical spend sellout in order to establish security and this is a requirement number one for any civilization requirement. requirement number two is what economy the Prophet sallallahu Sallam said, share the food. Yeah, feed people.
I was reflecting upon this.
He didn't the prophesies. did not say where to get it from where to improve how to improve economy. He just said to people, Okay, come on, but I What do we feed them from? Where? Yeah, where do we get the food from?
The prophets Allah Salam didn't speak about that. Yeah. Ah Subhana Allah. When I was reflecting upon all of this evidence, I found that as Allah, Allah, Allah says, woman pudiera here is a young ma Hola. When your risk is becoming tight, and you have financial constraints, in order to expand your risk, what do you need to do?
Help others Disability Law spend spend in the way of Allah and
is a means for us your risk to be increased? Exactly. in the way of Allah. Yeah. And now, this basically is counting on me is counting
Of course, and the economy theory, by the way, the economy theory, okay. of Adam Smith. Some people say that he took it from even khaldoun Anyway, let us not get into this. Adam Smith, you know, he's the father of modern economy. He's from Glasgow, he says that the when the when when the wealth is circulated, it grows.
Yeah. So it is the same. Yeah, when we circulate
wealth, it grows, but we circulated for the right reason, which is helping others for the sake of Allah, Allah, Allah, it grows. They mentioned that psychology can even people know that they spend in this way. Yeah. Then they start to become more smart in the way they spend. And they become even more productive. Yeah, let alone the Baraka. Yeah, we'll come down. Yeah, every single day as the Prophet sallallahu Sallam says two angels come down, one of them says, Oh Allah give those who get and the other one says, Oh Allah naked tight on those who abstain from giving.
I can talk more about it, but the issue of it is, and I found is that the people who are worried about there is Yeah, there are the people who are suffering.
The people who are not worried about it is Subhana Allah, Allah, Allah, Allah
What gives them more and show me any generous person who is enough
money wasting his money and a generous person who became what? Poor and devastated. And actually even the other day they asked me on Islam channel, Shia who started some business and we want how our business can grow from Islamic perspective. I said to them, do two things have the clean hearts wish goodness for everyone? Yeah. Number one, which is net link to number two. give as much as you can, especially to your own relatives.
Yeah, so this is a call for those families who are suffering from financial difficulties. Spend for the sake of Allah. Allah, Allah, Allah, Allah, Allah will put Baraka Yeah, and increase your income. Yeah. Now, you need one thing to do that which is to have your trust in Allah. Mm hmm.
I was gonna say this, this what you're advocating CIF is going to take a lot of human tawakkol
and also a sense of Canada, you know, this concept of
live would you say a good translation is live within your means live within your be satisfied with what you have? And yeah, be selected content? Yeah. What do you Yeah, contentment, be content with what you have? Nothing just as
a helpless person? No, no, no, not the negative one, the positive one. Yeah. And, by the way, this which is giving others and helping others is actually a shocker. Because as you know, shocker. being thankful to Allah, Allah, Allah has three main elements. Yeah, as all these
branches of faith have. The first one is acknowledging the name of Allah by your heart. Yeah. The second one is acknowledging it by your tongue. And the third one is acknowledging by what your limbs how, by spending it for the sake of Allah. Yeah.
So, you would like the Muslim community to adopt this approach this philosophy to to risk both men and women, yes. And this will go some way to for human beings have for us as Muslims to realize that actually, there are non tangible metaphysical things.
Powers, like things like Buttercup concepts like Baraka and you know,
that
it might not show up in your balance sheet at the end of the month in your budget, but
in real life, in your everyday life, it it has an effect.
Absolutely, absolutely. That let us talk about that. I want I want campaigns now.
Whereby women, females, girls, to appreciate being mothers,
that's all Yeah. Yeah. Working enough working, dropping University not to dropping University etc, leave it up to each one and have on circumstances, but at least let us now have campaigns. So, parents, the children, everyone, yeah, acknowledge the status of motherhood. Yeah, acknowledge the the role of motherhood
and then, and to make this as the norm as the general warning, and then we can have exceptions, then there that it will be a healthy situation to have exception as the norm. Yeah.
And the other way around, because it's gone so far the other way. You're saying that now we need to like redress that balance and
you know, and and advocate for motherhood and for the traditional roles again, so that the, we restore the status, the importance and the self esteem, I would say that, you know, mothers have and, and also that this the support system that because when when, when a society values a role, they will support that role. They would, they'll do everything that they can to make that role. Yeah, yeah, and better and
You know, valued. And so, yeah, just checkup I must say that. I remember once you came to a group of sisters who were like, just graduated from Allah Mears. And you, I invited you to come and speak to them. And you talked about lots of good things, of course, but one of the things that you highlighted, especially, was and these were young sisters, I would say 20s in the early 20s. And you were you were advocating to them that, you know, don't delay marriage, you know? Yeah.
And that was a bit surprising to them. Okay. Like, afterwards, I don't think they expected that, because it's become like the cliche, you know, for, I would say, for, like you said, model, you know, to, to,
you know, encourage all sorts of other things. But yeah, almost like motherhood is something not to really mention. seen as, like an old fashioned, you'd be seen as an old fashioned chef, right to mention it. But But can I tell you something chef after after you left? Yeah, um, the sisters were actually very grateful, you know, for what you said? Because a lot of them, it was on their mind, you know, it is something that is on their mind that, you know, they they're not sure, like, should they first be putting this ahead or that ahead? And, and in a way, you gave them a reality check, because you were telling us about the number of sisters who come to you, you know, who sadly, and I
think people don't don't realize this, sometimes, you know, the number of sisters who come to you who, maybe when they were in their early 20s, they did have the opportunity to get married, or even younger. And, you know, they kept kind of turning people away. Because they wanted to prioritize other things. Yeah, then they find themselves in this situation, where, you know, maybe they're coming close to 30 or over, where suddenly the opportunities to get married are, are not there anymore, right. And they're drying up there. Because most most brothers will.
anyone, any Muslim man who's religious, who doesn't want to, he doesn't want to have her arm relationships. He's going to get married young, right? He's going to get married as soon as he can. And so you, you really gave the sisters a reality check. And I can tell you that a number of them after you left, they actually
got married. They were considering people for marriage, you know? And I think that's something right. Yeah. Do you spoke to them? It kind of gave them that little push, you know, because, like you said, Nobody is saying this. Like, it's not in people's in the average girls is
this is not being said anymore, you know, or at least very unfortunate. And I say to the shoe you By the way, I say to them, here Allah, Allah, Allah, you are teaching women. You are cheating system. Yeah, it is a harsh word. But this is a reality. You know, just one one quick point. Not
one time, we had the it was in another country. And the like, this was one of the big conferences, and the brothers in charge of that, okay, they always consult me. Anyway, they want to have like a token of appreciation for like outstanding, young people. So they had for two brothers, two sisters. And then they say, Oh, this brother achieved this, and that, and this, and that, and this brother achieved this and that and, and the one they brought to the sister, the sisters, they said, Oh, this is achieved this under. And then the other says, I achieved this and that I said,
and I it was like any very difficult for me to stand against this. In the whole conference, I said, and the none of those sisters were appreciated because she was a mother. or none of them. She was appreciated because she supported her husband. And actually, you are belittling women. And this is my final word. Because the standard for the achievement of women now is what is the achievement of men. So they are making good, they are making women inferior to men by measuring their achievements according to the achievement of men. Yeah. And that's why there will be always disturbance in this equilibrium of the dynamic of the of the social relationship between men and men. And there will be
a disturbance in the whole social setup. Yeah.
Women they need to be confident
of who they are. We need to be confident of who we are. We should not as men, try to achieve what women are achieving, and when men should not to try to achieve what men are achieving our gelada summarizes this in one verse in Surah Nisa yeah when I take them in no not for Bella Habiba, Malaga live again in a simple mimic, willingly say in a simple mimic the seventh was I will love him in public in a live kind of equally Shay in Alina. don't wish, wish, what Allah Allah has given some of you over the others. Women have their own virtues. Men have their own virtues, ask Allah Allah Allah, from his father from his bounties, from his favorites upon you not to ask him to have what he
has given others. Yeah. Why? Allah, Allah, Allah says, in the law, the condition in the light kind of equalization, arriba, Allah knows, every
different shift. I will say that, you know, sometimes people they might, Harry could short what you've said, you know, and the message that you're giving, as you know, I've heard people, they try to caricature this type of message as being somehow anti women or, you know, against women's desires and wishes and ambitions. But one of the things I would say is, and I've said this to sisters before is, you know, after one of your talks, or one of these kind of things that you've mentioned, I've said to them, that, actually, it's out of sheer heathens, immense love for Muslim women with nearly the sisters, okay, and their well being, that he is advocating this because he, every day, he deals
with the sisters, he deals he comes, he comes across all the cases.
And he sees what we don't get to see in terms of the negative effects of this imbalance that you're that you're describing. And so, you know, I really hope that the sisters who are listening to this podcast, I hope they realized that you know, so panela, sometimes we might hear a chef or somebody saying something that is in accordance to popular culture, right. So yeah, it might be advocating to us get out there sisters, you know, go and do this, go and do that rule, you can change the world, blah, blah, blah, and, you know, in, in the way that men do, right, um, and we might think that they are the real advocate, advocates and supporters of women, right. Yeah. When when, in fact, that
message is harmful, right? That message is harmful to us as women. And I would encourage, you know, the sisters who are listening to, you know, let's one of the phrases I always say chef is, let us be women of substance. You know, that's not be fickle women who just who just affected by the latest fad, the latest, you know, cool, kinda like you said emotions, right, the emotional message, the message that is being put out there the images, the Yeah, exactly.
Let's look a bit deeper think a bit deeper about the effects of what is being given to us is Yeah, absolutely. And by Allah, yeah. By Allah.
By Allah likely, this is beside.
Yeah, I need that I find that this is an obligation upon me. By Allah, what you said is absolutely true. That my motivation for this is my sympathy with sisters.
Beside pleasing Allah, Allah Allah because I believe that this is the true Islamic position. Yeah. Is there love to protect the Ummah and the love, as you said, for our sisters, because I believe that our sisters have more important role and they can once they understand their role, they can change the face of our own. Yeah. And also, they will be their honor will be protected, because I see the human creation that they are going through now because they are not following or because not today because generally speaking, the
Academic guidelines are not followed is that the locket necklace Aeron chair, inshallah I would like to see does that guarantee for you know, for your valuable time and for your advice and we take it as naseeha you know, sincere advice
just like a Heron and hopefully we can have future conversations like this because there are there are lessons that sometimes you know, sisters would like to ask the shoe York to address them directly and yeah,
particularly particular I would say
motivation so is that attention and was Salam aleikum wa rahmatullah wa barakato.
So, just a couple of brothers and sisters, I hope you enjoyed that and benefited from that session. And if you do want to send me any feedback, please do leave a comment, please like this talk and you know, give us a rating and that way if you can share it as well that will help it spread to other people and more and more sisters can benefit. inshallah, with that I will bid you farewell subhanak Allah home will be handy Gosh, La ilaha illa Anta
to booty like salaam aleikum wa rahmatullah wa to
be
you've been listening to my talk with Fatima Baraka Tila, please share this episode. Please leave a comment. And let us know what you think about the issues that we've discussed. Below Heron was Salam alaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh