Fatima Barkatulla – Ummah Talk 010 – Mohammad Arshad on Shaykh Muhammad AlShareef’s legacy & Entrepreneurial Tips
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The speakers emphasize the importance of belief in action and personal success, as events like Nolan's passing and the use of technology have positively impacted personal growth. They stress the need for flexibility and continuous learning, as it is crucial for personal development and building a trust and confidence in oneself. The speakers also mention a program called "come on" that helps individuals improve their body language and increase their chances of achieving their goals.
AI: Summary ©
Yeah,
you're
welcome to the OMA talk podcast with me, Fatima Baraka Tula.
Let the
Bismillah Alhamdulillah wa salatu salam ala Rasulillah. The brothers and sisters are Salam o Alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh Hi and welcome to this on my talk, podcast episode. Today I have with me somebody who I've actually worked with in the past. And I'm actually really looking forward to speaking to because I've been wanting him wanting to ask him these questions for a long time and wanting to engage him and actually introduce him to you that on my talk audience.
Some of you may be familiar with him already. And he is brother Muhammad Ershad. Brother Mohammed is the founder and CEO I believe, of Muslim CEO, Muslim mastery. He was the first emir of Al Maghrib in London, which I think is called Kabila to chumps, right. And he helps Muslims to inspire people influence change and impact the world. So as salaam aleikum, Brother Muhammad, Ali concern our to Allah Hadean, Sister Hamdulillah, I'm fine. Good. How are you doing? Oh, Hamdulillah. I'm really, really good. Yeah, Brother Muhammad. I think that I mean, there's so many things that I would love to speak to you about. But I thought maybe we could begin. Because it's something that's just
happened recently. And it's on people's minds. And I'm sure it's affected you as well, by speaking about
the passing of Sheikh Muhammad Sharif, who was of course the founder of the millennium Institute. Yeah.
Brother Mohammed like, I didn't actually attend any classes of Schiff, one with a Sharif, which is quite surprising, because I've, I've been invited by Al Maghrib. Quite a few times to classes as a guest. And I've always attended, because I just loved the classes. They were so, so vibrant, so professionally done. And yeah, so I've attended classes like with Jeff Yasaka, the holy books uni, at Al Maghrib.
And I always heard about things that Mama Sharif was doing. So I remember when niche hero was out there, right? I just remember, like, desperately wanting to attend. But I just had a baby. You know, there was always something some reason why I couldn't attend something of his Yeah, I just had a baby. But also, you know how some shoe they resonate with you more than others. Right? So maybe I was a bit of I'm a bit of a nerd. So I like Yes. You know, classes that a bit more like? Sure. Yeah, yeah. So I guess, you know, I ended up attending those. But from afar, I would say I'd always admired shake one with Sharif. And I could really see what he was doing, you know, and how impactful
it would be? I'd say just just to, of course, want to hear from you. I just remember one thing that happened. I remember some people criticizing, you know, the Al Maghrib style of advertising courses, right. Like these amazing trailers and
like these posters that looked very dramatic, you know.
And, you know, and somebody was saying, you know, our sisters are getting so excited because of shoe, right? Like, yeah, attending classes a shoe. And, you know, I said something to them. I said, you know, I'd rather they were excited to go see Shira so and so then Brad Pitt, you know, exactly. And that was my perspective on it at the time. But anyway, over to you, you know, what impact has
the passing of Sheikh Mohammed chief had on you?
And what are your reflections on his legacy and his life? Yeah, I mean, for me, I think just like everyone else has been total shock. And it's a lot of shock for me, because I know knew Him So Well, personally. So it's been a massive, massive shock. And I think everyone's kind of been reflecting everyone I've been speaking to, whether it's like shoe Hall, or everyday people, everyone is reflecting on their life. Everyone is reflecting on their own legacy, and you know what it's going to be like for them. And I think that a lot of people are surprised at the outpouring that's kind of come out on social media, how people have reacted, and suddenly people are starting to realize how
amazing this person was actually. And I feel like a lot of people underrated him. For me, I've actually surprisingly tried to model myself on him try to model myself in terms of my personality in terms
Like the way he took action, the kind of way that he was thinking, uh, basically, I've been trying to be like this guy since I met him. And I've been very, very interested in him. And so I've rated him very, very highly in my mind before this happened. And now I feel that as people have lost something, they appreciate him more, I think now people are starting to realize who this guy really was, and what he actually did, because what he did was really, really huge. And I think there's some really big lessons we can take from him and the way he was.
If somebody was to ask you, what was it that he did? How would you? I was he was involved with so many things? Yes, yeah. Yeah, what I would do is I would, I would want to share with you like the three biggest things that I think are really important for us to learn from him. As a person, I would say these are very unique. Alhamdulillah. Like, I spent a lot of time with you how I used to look after all of the Muslims who when they would come down to London and stuff, I've spent time because of Iran, all this. So I've spent a lot of time with people knowledge and Sheoak. And I've seen them in private when they're alone, one to one and all of this. And based on all of that
there's three big lessons, I think we could learn from Sheikh Hamza Sharif. So I can go into that if you want to show. Yes, yes, please. Okay, so the first big thing was that I would say that he was a visionary. He was a visionary. And it's ironic because his programs called visionary one of the main ones, right, but the what do I mean by him being visionary, and this is how a lot of leaders are, is that he basically saw what we couldn't see. So he was able to see what we couldn't see, like in the future when he was thinking about things. He was seeing things that none of us saw, and the way he was seeing things was in a very different way to us. I'll give you a real life example, from his
life. I remember he said to me, he said, one time I heard it on the interviews, he said that I was walking past a cinema, or a movie theater. And while I was walking past, I saw this advert for a movie. And I was like, Look how amazing this advert is that the way they've made it. And then he said to himself, Islam deserves better. Okay, so he had this, like, most of us, we look at a movie theater poster, and we'd be like, wow, like, amazing movie, we should watch it, or we shouldn't watch it or whatever. But he actually saw the quality of it. And he said, Islam deserves better Islam deserves this more than that poster. So the way he was looking at things was completely
different. So what he did is he actually took that, that love Islam and those high standards, and he extracted all the things that non Muslims were doing in terms of their promotion in the way that they set it up and everything. And He then started applying that to Islamic knowledge. And he started to create this kind of movement, where everyday people like me were basically given access to Islamic knowledge. And scholars in a very different way, it was done in a way that was made for a western audience, not just the usual Eastern kind of way of memorizing and learning. So the way he kind of saw it all and then went out and executed, it was totally phenomenal. Because if you think
about him, like he's a dreamer, he's the kind of type who's a visionary. I mean, he had an amazing Integrator as well, we can go into what that is with with Nord, who is one of the most amazing guys I've ever met. But he himself was proper into action. So he wasn't one of those people who's like, very thinking visionary, but then can't take action. He was someone who actually realized that action is the key to success. So he was a visionary, but at the same time, he took massive action. So I think that's one of the big things we can learn from him. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I was discussing with my friend who her husband was in with, you know, with Chef mom with a Sharif. They
were actually roommates, I think, wow. And she was saying, one of the things I was saying to her was, he made connections where other people didn't make connections. And I think that's basically one of the things you're saying, right? Like,
most of us would not have connected, popular media marketing,
you know, Hollywood style trailers and things, I would never have connected that with that well, actually. And he kind of redefined and changed that because he could see that, wait a minute, we can apply this to our, you know, we can apply these techniques to
to Dow. And then the second thing we actually mentioned, and it shows you that everyone is thinking so similarly, in that sense, that he seems to be a person of action. Like, regardless of the naysayers, you know, regardless of because most of us if we had an idea, and then she you, especially she you were criticizing it, you know, or they said oh, no, no, they were, you know, especially your own peers even right, yeah. We've kind of backed down, right, we might back down. And this is what happened, by the way since the start, like, it was like, Oh my God, he's charging for classes. Oh my god. He's doing posters. Why is he doing trailers, all of this stuff, right? And
now it's so amazing. I was in a masjid in Nottingham, I think three or four years ago, two three years ago, and
I went there and I saw a poster. This is a random city. It's not like the biggest city in the UK, right? And they got random poster about how they're going to have a class or something. And it was just like an unlikely poster, and actually message it for homework that I'm like, check. I'm just thinking of you. Because I saw this poster. And I was thinking this is you basically, who's pioneered this way of doing things. And it's a random Masjid in a random city in the West, and this guy's earning from it insha Allah. And so all the things that people were basically saying to him, You shouldn't do this. Why are you doing this oldest questioning? This was a massive thing. But it
leads me on to like, the second thing I think we can learn from him, which is actually belief, like the level of belief that he had, it kind of boggles my mind. Because if you if you if you listen to if your psychology, for example, he said that we were put into studying, and he said, when we looked at Oklahoma, and we were like this guy, this guy's like, he's weird, basically. Right? Why is he weird, because he's going on about, I'm going to start an institute and I go back to the UK or US and I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. And, and it's like, just pass your exams first. Like this is what Shirky also Saimaa him, right? Like, we all saw him as as quite weird. And you can
imagine, like, a bunch of really academic, scholarly type of people looking at someone actually looking down on him even maybe, right? And going, like, Who is this weirdo? This guy, he didn't even know much about Islamic Studies, how's he going to pass his exams, but the level of belief he had holla at that point, to not only see the vision, but to go, you know what, I'm going to make this a reality Inshallah, even though I might not be the best student of knowledge, I might not be the best color or whatever. But I'm gonna make this a reality. You know, so he had this amazing belief in actually achieving the vision. And I think a lot of the points point about this is that a lot of
visionary thinkers have amazing thinking, but when they then think about themselves going out and doing that, it breaks down because the belief is not there. And his his beliefs around this was amazing. But the belief was not just on himself, by the way, like, I remember one time I went to him, and I was gonna, I was gonna basically leave my corporate job to join I era, this when I got headhunted, and they asked me to come and manage operations IRA. And I went to him and I said, Sure, you know, this has come up, like, what do you think about this? And he said, Mohamed, you know, what you should do on your own? And I was like, what? I'm like, I've got the king of Dawa. I've got
Sheikh Mohammed of worship, Abdul Rahim green with me. And you're telling me to do this myself? He's like, Yeah, do it yourself. So even,
like the whole of Ira project, yeah. Like, if you'd really lucked out, you want to do that, do the whole of Ira on your own. And I was like, at the time, I thought, the guy's a bit crazy, you know, but it just shows his level of belief even in other people, right, and what other people can achieve as well. So he had this amazing belief. And I think that a lot of the stuff that we kind of go throughout Muslim history is to do with the mindset, because when your beliefs are, in a certain way, just like we say, in Islam, it will come out on your tongue, and it will come out in action. So getting your beliefs, right is one of the core things and I think she not only had his beliefs,
right about what he could achieve, and what was actually doable, but also for other people what they could achieve, and how they could be a better version of themselves as well. Where do you think that belief came from? Was it his family? His upbringing, do you think? Yeah, I think like, I did the interview of him, and I'm so glad and grateful to Allah Alhamdulillah that I got that interview with him. Because, you know, he doesn't usually do interviews and all of that, and I hadn't seen any interviews. So I was like, proper, like, I was thinking he's gonna say no, and he was, like, really gracious to give me his time. And one of the things that because that whole thing was more about
learning about him as he grew up. And one thing I didn't know about him was that he actually grew up as like the only Muslim child in his school. Right? Now, a lot of us that live in the UK, for example, or big cities like London, Birmingham, Manchester, wherever, like, like, in my class, like it was full of Muslims, right? So with him, he was the only guy who was who was Muslim. So I think growing up in an environment like that, where, you know, you're the only Muslim and you hold on to that identity. I think there's a lot of benefits in that, you know, there's issues with living in non Muslim land and all that. But generally, I can imagine, I can see why someone who grew up in
Winnipeg, or the West has a stronger sense of identity to Islam than someone who grew up in Lahore, for example. So I think it was partly that, but also, you know, that they keep saying that he was raised on this belief that, you know, nothing is impossible. And so when you raise a child with that kind of belief that anything is possible, they actually start to believe it. And so then when later on in life, when they start to enter into people's naysaying and negativity and all of this, they're like, No, anything's possible. Insha Allah and I think things like memorizing the Quran and doing all these things that he did. I think that probably really increased his belief because like, if you
think, oh, man, I really want to memorize Quran. I wonder if I can do it. And then you actually go and do it at age 10 or 11. Like that's a massive, massive boost and that's a massive thing for your confidence, take it to the next level.
And I guess also seeking knowledge he knew that Allah subhanaw taala is His Word is going to be manifest on this
to Earth. And so that also gives you confidence, right? That you can be a tool that Allah subhanaw taala will use for the benefit of mankind. I feel like that was in some of his talks, you know? Yeah, kind of message? Definitely. I'm just reminded me. Go ahead. No, you go.
Gonna say You just reminded me that he also in a way unleashed a whole generation of Muslim creatives. Yes. Do you know I mean, because SubhanAllah? I remember back in like, back in the day, what would a graphic designer really do? You know, like, related to Islam? Not much.
I mean, if you're a graphic designer, if you're like a video videographer, if you're into like creative things, there wasn't really much of a, you'd have to go into like, basically Western and non Muslim, secular type, type trade, right?
But he kind of unleashed this whole generation of creative Muslims who could literally use their creativity for Dawa, and Islam. Yeah. Which is quite amazing. I actually didn't think of that before. And because like he said, he believed in them. And also, he basically created an Indus industry, right, that they could.
They had a part in. Yeah. And it's still it's still live today, right? Where we have this thing. So I do think, by the way, that I think, eventually, like, our stomach knowledge would have caught up a little bit like how charities have, right, because now, like, if you think about our charities, 40 years ago, they might not have been doing like posters and videos, and this and that, but they've kind of caught up because they've seen how other charities have gone. And I do think that eventually, we would have caught up. But I think someone like Sheikh Hamad, he really accelerated it. And the fact that he had an interest in marketing and interest in business building and an
organization's and this and that, I think it accelerated us. And if you think about it, now, it seems kind of crazy to think that in 2002, for example, you know, a lot of it was actually doing seminars, you know, that's 20 years ago, when it was a very different landscape, like some of the shoe have said that, you know, at that time, women, if they wanted to study knowledge, at high level, they couldn't just fly off to the next day. Right? They would like to, you know, the average everyday Muslim woman, she didn't have access, but ultimately, it really brought that axis, you know, and it brought it outside of the massager as well. So it was a very easy kind of comfortable
environment for people to kind of go into and stuff.
What did you want to say, when I interrupted you? I'm so sorry. Okay, I just wanted to say that part of him, I think the third thing that I was saying, which was linked to his his belief that even though he had so much belief in himself, one of the problems that I kind of helped with seems with is confidence. And a lot of the time people who are not confident they have this kind of false notion that either I don't be confident, or I be arrogant, right, because a lot of the time when you're trying to get confident, you become Hurrican, right, naturally. And I think that the one that amazing things about him is that he had so much belief in himself, and other people. But even though
he had that belief, it didn't lead him to be really arrogant, and really, you know, boastful, and all this. And so the third thing that I found about him, which I think is a massive thing for us to learn, is actually his humility, right. And I think that his humility is on a next level, like I've worked with some amazing shoe. An example of that is up there, Hank Green, you know, when we went to Canada, he said to me, Mohamed, I'm like, a kept saying to everyone else, Muhammad is like my boss, tell him whatever you want me to do. And if he approves it, I'll do it. Literally, he was there like, like my servant type thing when it's when he's the boss of the boss, basically. So I've been
around people out there, him and others who have really great humility, but I think Sheikh Mohammed was on another level. And I think that it's very, very amazing that people keep saying about him, that when they spent time with Him, they never ever heard him say anything bad about people. And the soul is amazing. Like, all the time, when I've spent with him, I can't remember a single time where there was even like a hint of negativity towards a person, or an organization. And I had been around him when we had really difficult conversations about competitors, and this and that. And still, I didn't hear anything like that. And I think that the humility that he had, it was really, really
next level. And I'll give you an example of this, right? Like random example. I was saying to him about making the odd this is like, many, many years ago, and I said, Sure, I'm making this dua that Allah make me the greatest in x y Zed, okay? And he's like, Yeah, that's good. But you know what, like, is better if you make the DUA that Allah makes you one of the greatest. And I was like, What are you talking about? Like, this is low standards, right? I'm saying make me the grace, which you'd like for those the highest level? Yeah. And you're saying one of the rays. What's that about? And he said, Look, when you make the RTB the greatest, you're actually kind of putting other people below
you
But if you ask Allah to make you one of the greatest, you're actually like, on an equal footing with other people. And it's not like, you know, you're above them. Right? And I was like, blown away by that I was like, wow, like think about the level he's thinking about. Because I'm just thinking to a very superficial level highest this and that. But he's that when you make that high dollar, you're gonna put other people down. So he said he didn't want me to put people down in my two hours, right nevermind actually in speech or in action. So the level of humility he had, I think it was really, really next level. It shows you had like this abundance mentality, there's enough to go around. And
there's enough success to go around. There's enough. I have to go around. Definitely, Alan, this just does. There's one incident like when he was talking about competitors and stuff on the show who they were sharing that when they had these discussions about another organization opening up and, you know, taking market share, taking their customers, all this kind of stuff. And they were basically deciding internally privately what they should do about this organization. And at the end of it all shift on the sheriff's thing was, look, if they're doing it, and we're doing it, this is actually good for the OMA. And competition is going to push us to do better, it's going to push them
to do better. In the end, the OMA will benefit more.
Right? And again, that does amazing. generif.
So it's like Apple and Microsoft. Yeah, but it's like it's that Apple thing. Yeah, Microsoft, it's great that Microsoft around for the people. People don't think like that, you know, they like to destroy Exactly, exactly that destroy them and stuff. So I think his humility was like next level in that sense that, like me, for example, one of our business partners, he lives in the UAE, he lived in UAE. So the my passport has I've traveled so much, but the most stamps I have is from the UAE because I used to go there like two three times a year sometimes. And every single time I went there, because chicoms used to live there. Every single time I went there, and I asked him like to
meet up. He always made time, there wasn't a single time. When he said no. And I was going through all my messages. I was looking at what he was saying how he spoke. And there was not one time he said oh, I'm busy. I can't make it or you know, excuse or this or that he always always handler made time for me. And 111 Last example I want to give in terms of his humility, this this kind of again, blew me away. We were sitting in the greenroom, which is where like speakers sit before they speak at infest, which is a big conference that we're doing. And you know, there was like 1000 1500 people there. And I was sitting next ship on I was just talking to him. And as I was sitting there, I was
going through the booklet, you know, sometimes you go to a conference and they give you a booklet that kind of tells you about what's happening at the, at the conference and everything. And I'm going through it and I see this advert and the advert is for discover you which is his business or his company right outside of a market. And I look at him I'm like, hey, check ya shake, look at you advertising on Mercury via like, you know, making making the most well Maghrib type of thing. And he said, he said, No, Mohammed, I paid for that ad. I was like what?
He said, Yeah, I paid for that advert. I'm like, why would you pay for that advert along with yours? Like what is going on here? type of thing? Yeah. Because that me personally, if I almost am Austrian, Muslim CEO, and I'm going to advertise one to the I'm just gonna do it. Right. Why would I pay for it? But he was like, No, did you have your own? Yes, exactly. Right. But he was like, No, this this almost rib. It belongs to the OMA. And it's it's this, you know, so if I'm going to advertise my business in it, I need to pay for it. And I was like, wow, I was shocked. And you know, when I had those deeper conversations with him, it was really interesting in that conversation,
because what I realized is that he had actually given a McRib away, like in the early days, obviously, when it was trying to launch, you know, maybe he was like, surviving on the money or whatever. But at some point years ago, he actually gave it away. And so then I started thinking about all the haters that you say, Oh, he's only doing it for the money. He's this. He's that. I was thinking, wow. Like, they all backbiting him. They're all saying negative things about him. But really, only he knows. And he knows that he doesn't earn a penny from it. If he wanted, he could earn 10s of 1000s pounds from it. But he's actually donated it to the online, he takes no benefit
from it. I was like, wow, that's insane.
So panela just not gonna hire him for for those insights. I mean, I mean, can you just describe to us what was it like? Like, how did you meet him? And on a personal level, what if it, what impacted you? What things did you learn from him? Like, I guess, like for your own work, I think, on a personal level, like the way I met him was that because I was part of the initial team that launched on Maghrib. In the UK,
he would actually go to different cities and launch the first class. So because it was London, he came to London. And when he came for the first time, I got to spend time with him. And it was weird because I spent time with him. And I was like, This guy's different. I could tell immediately discuss different like, just just like the way we were talking to him, the things he was doing, like at the end of the week, and I was actually at home, like what are we doing during the week now? And he's like, I'm going to Scotland. I'm like, why are you going to Scotland? Oh, just go away and think and plan. I was like, What are you talking about? I go
Hang alone, he's a young gonna go along. So he basically went in Scotland for like four or five days, he basically did visionary at that time, we didn't know what it was. So he was actually implementing it in his life for years before he went out. And actually, I told the standard, I'm sorry, I don't understand what his vision. So vision is one of his programs, which is, it's all about da, it's all about crafting the art. And it's a really, really good way of kind of mixing, I would say, goal setting with the art and kind of like achieving your doors. And, you know, he would basically go away, he would think very deeply about what does he want to achieve in the next six
months? What do hours does he want to make a reality. And he would basically spend days and days doing this. And he had a process for doing it. And he was working on it. And he did that for like, 10 years or more, I think 10 to 15 years, on his own. And then he came out and said, hey, it would be really cool if someone else was doing this with me as well. And so it wasn't one of those whole, you know, let me learn it today and teach it tomorrow. It was like he practiced it in his own life. And this is what he did with a lot of his things. And then when he had kind of mastered it and got it to a certain level, he would then go out and help others and teach it. And so it's one of those
courses that you'd go and check it out. You'll see like life changing testimonials, people achieved amazing things from it, and everything. So he was just like into and part of this is again goes back to the visionary thing, where he saw to ask slightly different to how most people would see it. And then he used it slightly different. And it was just an amazing result for him and others as well.
I see. So he was going to Scotland to is that part of the vision? Like process? Yeah, it's the part the process has to be alone. Like if sometimes they've done it as retreats, or they've done it in Scotland, they've done it in Canada in nice places. But also it can be done at home. But they're just a part of the activity where you're kind of starting to think really deeply about what you want in life and all of this stuff. And they're they kind of advise you to go. So remember I remember one time many years ago, I was doing visionary here in London, and I decided to go to Alexandra Palace because it's really high up. And it's a really nice view and stuff. And I did my visioning there. So
you can always like choose local sports as well. It doesn't need to be like a different country or whatever. But it's really, really good to go into it. Because a lot of people they don't spend time to think, what do I actually want? Or do I actually want to experience or do actually want to achieve? It's almost like, private time with Allah. Right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. To really connect really? Right, like to just be still. And
I think most of us because we're so connected now. Yeah, yeah. You know, when was the last time you actually just shut everything down? And we're alone with Allah? And and that's what he does. He will he would say that it's very similar. By the way, Bill Gates does this as well, where he goes away for like a week, every quarter, I think it is. And he just takes books with him. And no phones, nothing like that. Because a lot of this has to do with like, when you disconnect like imagine, I remember one time after going to I forgot my phone at home. I went to Jamaica, and then I had to go get some food for the family. And when I when I was discovering new things like I was actually, I
felt so different just being away from my phone for an hour, right?
Yeah, you're noticing things and you're talking to people now rather than being on your phone and this and that. And I just realized that wow, like I'm only away from my phone for an hour or two. And so the way these kinds of retreats work, whether it's Visionaire or Bill Gates, or whatever, it's all about disconnecting, it's all about getting away from this stuff. Because what happens is that even your thinking it happens in waves. So you spending one hour away from your phone, you have a certain level of thinking, but then when you start spending five hours and no phone, the thinking will again be different. And then 24 hours will be different. So the aim is actually to spend, you
know, days away from being connected and all of that, so that you actually connected to yourself and to your thoughts and to your soul and what you want to achieve and Allah and all these things, so that you get a different level of thinking that you wouldn't get because you're constantly connected.
Yes.
And also, do you think one of the things he did was
he made it okay to be a rich Muslim? Hmm, yeah. Do you know what I mean? I kind of remember him being the first person for me anyway, where I'd heard this idea of the millionaire who went to Ghana, you know, this idea of, of being that I come from a council flat background, you know, like, yeah, also flat in Hackney.
You know, my dad, mostly doing things, you know, for for the community, right. And I kind of grew up not really thinking about money, I must say.
Yeah. And when he kind of made that kind of statement that actually, you know, you can be rich and go to Ghana, you can, you know, I think it kind of changed a lot of people's mindsets. Could you speak a bit about that, like he's sure, his message on money and then
Yeah, yeah, I want to say a lot. I want to say that when you meet your handler Sharif, he is someone that will turn your views upside down. And no, this is the guy who study Sharia. Right. So this is not just like willy nilly, I think differently, right? It's like, based on Sharia, he would question or things. And what you'll find is that a lot of us, especially south Asians, we have a bit of a messed up mentality when it comes to money, right? We kind of see as this thing, like, if I started doing an exercise with you about money, you might start saying, like, if I just said to you, money is like, Normally people would say money is the root of all evil, right? Money is all problematic
money is. And so our relationship, in our minds with money is really messed up. And this is something that's like very common for religious people, even like in the Christian in the Christians, you'll see like, the Protestants, they're all about working hard and avoiding the dunya. And like not being rich, and all these kinds of things, right. So it's very natural, because we have, we do have real things where, you know, when you get when you get like all of this world, and you get everything with it, sometimes people become arrogant. And sometimes people can become, you know, they basically, they actually, I guess destroyed because of everything they're given, and they
ungrateful and all of that. But the way Sheikh Mohammed was, is that he really, really redefined our relationship with money. And I think it's really, really important. He did that because of the way the world is now. And his belief was that money is a magnifier, it's a magnifier. So if you have someone who is a really good person, and they have money, they will actually go out there. And they'll do so much good because they've got money. Okay. And if you've got someone who's a really bad person, they will take that money, and they will do a lot of bad with it. So he saw it as a tool, and as a magnifier, that would basically take someone to the next level. And he gave the
example because he really looked up to like if you asked him Sahaba Wise, who do you look up to most he would have said of Monroe, Dylan. And if you look at the example of Monroe, then he is someone who literally literally he bought Jana, because the person who wants to buy Jana who wants to buy Jana like and he was like whether it was like loading up with camels or whether it was buying a well or whatever, but he used his wealth, to buy Jannah and to benefit the Ummah and to please Allah and all of this stuff. And you know, the the mindset around money is really, really important. Because, you know, for us, it's not just about like, buying wells, and all the kinds of things, but it's the
mindset that goes with it. So he was used to give the example Sheikh Mohammed that, you know, imagine that you go to a restaurant and you completely fool. And when you go to the restaurant, like you got extra food leftover, so you got a bag of food, and then you leave the restaurant and there's a guy outside he says always please, sir, can I have some food? Like, what's your mentality going to be? You're so full anyway, right? You're gonna be like, Hey, you go, okay. But if you're if you're kind of starving yourself, and someone says, give me a little bit of food, you might feel that oh, man, I'm hungry myself, how am I going to give the food? So this this actually us becoming better?
And dealing with money is really important. And he's just going to say this thing is actually another author Robert Kiyosaki who said it. He said, You don't master money, you become a slave. If you don't ask for money. And you say that, again, because it's Robert Kiyosaki. And he said, If you don't,
if you don't master money, you become a slave, and ship him. And he, he learned this very early on. And you know, if you just look around, everyone who were the people standing at bus stops at 6am in the morning, like, if you ever go Fudger, or in the morning early, you will see these people at bus stops at six o'clock, six day, five o'clock. Why? Because they're going leaving their houses at 5:30am. And coming back 12 hours later, just to earn a buck. So he realized that, look, you know what I need to master money. So he sat down, he said, right, I'm gonna spend one hour a day, every single day, just focused on how to make money and what to do all of this until I master it. And then
once I master it, then I'll be fine. And that's exactly what happened. And this is why, you know, a lot of the time I will make fun of him. And I would like, you know, because he was just in Dubai. And he was just, like, kind of chilling. And he was just like, he had lots of time and all of this stuff. So I make fun of him. But he had that time and he had those choices. Alhamdulillah because he was able to muster money.
So he, he's one of those people who
he's one of those people who didn't, who follow the model where you don't, you know, your time does not equal your money, right? Yes, this is the big lesson in money, actually, that time and money need to be separated. Because if you can separate how much time and money, then you're not limited by your own time, and therefore your money is not limited.
And that's why he had so much free time because he'd
he'd done the brain work to done that action to set certain things up.
And I think that's kind of like the work that you're doing right, like trying to empower Muslims to think like that.
Definitely. Yeah. A lot of the stuff we're doing is especially with Muslim CEO
is helping Muslims to escape the nine to five, and live a rich life. And with Rich, I mean, not just money. But in terms of being time rich, because, you know, I remember like when I was at university, I had loads of time, you know, uni is not that intense in terms of like studying, right? So I had loads of time, and I had no money.
Yeah, and then, when when I was working, I had money, but I had no time because I was working all the time. So this conundrum of having one or the other, this is a big problem. And so what we're trying to do, I'm Muslim CEO is helping Muslims to become not only money rich, but time rich, but also impact rich, because, you know, you want to have purpose and meaning and you want to do something beneficial in the work that you do. So it's about taking these three things, and trying to become like, rich in time, in wealth in, in impact, and goodness. So that's the kind of stuff that we're helping Muslims to do.
And if somebody was to ask you, like, what is your formula?
Just like a taster of your formula for, for Muslims to, you know, what are you advocating? If you like, yeah. So in my past, since I kind of left IRA, I did a lot of different businesses, I sold all kinds of products from, from drones, to beauty skincare products, to like lamps and chargers, and this and that I sold so many different categories of things on Amazon and E commerce, and I did crowdfunding and I did loads of different things. And after doing all of those things, and you know, experiencing online business, I've now come to the conclusion that right now, the best thing anyone can do is probably start something which we call a knowledge business. Like, that's the one thing so
if my brother or my sister came to me and said, Look, I want to get to 100,000 pounds a year fast. What's the fastest, easiest way for me to do that? I would say focus on a knowledge business. And what is the knowledge business and large business is simply you solving people's problems, through advice through guidance, like that's it. So that could be in the form of coaching that could be in the form of a course, you could even do it in the form of a service. So these kinds of things, this is the kind of these are the kinds of businesses that we're helping people to create.
And what's the benefit? If somebody's listening, and they're thinking, you know, why, you know, I've got a nine to five, I've got, I've got money coming in, you know, just enough for my family, or, actually, I'm taking on three or four contracts at a time.
You know, this sort of thing that and especially with brothers, I think, you know, who wants to be breadwinners, you want to be the, the sole providers of their homes? Yes. Even more kind of pressure now, to what would you say to them? Like,
if they're thinking, Well, I can't I can't do that you no longer have time? Where would I start? And yes, would it really benefit me? Yeah, I think I should talk about the benefit thing first. Because if I think about my life, when I was in, like a typical corporate job, for example, I had some really bad work horror stories, right. So like, one horror story was, were, you know, just a general everyday weekly horror story of going to JAMA, and the hottie being late or speaking for longer than, you know, oh, my God, I'm supposed to be back on my desk. This guy's not stopping. I'm gonna have to miss lunch. You know, the stress and the pressure of going Gematria. It can be quite
intense. And then I remember there was another thing where I remember I was 100. I was a good salesperson, I got a lot of success. And my organization, the corporate one came to me, my manager came to me, he said, Mohamed, we want to give you a contract. It's really good government contract. But we're a little bit worried about the whole Muslim element. So would you mind if we change your name? What is that? Yeah, can we call you more Adams instead of Muhammad? Allah should. And I was like, This is ridiculous. Like nowadays, you'd probably sue these guys and get loads of money. When was this by the way, like 2005 2006, something like that. Right? So they were asking me to change my
name literally, that basically they're saying you're Muslim. You're a good salesperson, we want to put you on this account. But we're worried. Okay, I'll come to it. And of course, I said no way and then they put me on the account anyway. So maybe it's a test from Allah right. But I still got what I was supposed to get. And so like, that's, that's another horror story, you know, but the worst horror story for me is like when I went on * Ahmed, on hunch there was a big issue my annual leave, Amanda basically messed up. And when we got to hide, we came back from Hodge. And basically they put me through an investigation, like a full investigation, interviewing all of this stuff
around why I went on hodgen annual leave and oh, by the way, this all happened my wife was very ill after had she got paralyzed from the neck down. So during this time, they're doing like a full on investigation. Right. So this is kind of like my corporate life was and I'm sure everyone who's working in the corporate world or these kind of things. They know about office politics, they know about the hierarchy.
things and people trying to entice them and all these issues. So that was like my before, of, of my life in that sense. Now, when I established my own business, I established my own things and stuff, the way it works is so different. So for example, Hamdulillah I homeschool my kids. So after July now, like with my son, we go and we go and eat together after Juma and we're not rushing Juma and then maybe we go to a park and meet some of my friends and they get to play in the park. And so Juma is totally different. But at the same time, like my life, the way is really crazy. Like even in the last, just last six months, or whatever, I've probably taken around,
I'd say 10 to 15 flights have been all over the place, I'm kind of living in Turkey at the moment, I've been to New York, and to LA and all these different places across the US. I'm constantly backing in and out of the UK. So I'm living this kind of traveling lifestyle. And even when I'm in Turkey, I've done like 12,000 miles all around the country, just basically getting out of the house driving somewhere spending a few weeks coming home, like this kind of lifestyle hamdullah that I have Al Hamdulillah. Like, this is not something that you can do if you're on a typical corporate job, you cannot live like this, you know. So this is like the big benefit that you get to kind of do
what you want and live with, you know, the way you want. Of course, there's stresses, of course, there's your own business, and you have to do things. But what I've done is, I guess this is some of the other things you want to discuss is that I really tried to systemize the business. So I don't need to be involved on a day to day, every day for hours and hours and hours. So I've tried to create it so that I'm also time rich, and it's not just a money thing.
So this reminds me of The Four Hour Workweek.
That's the book that inspired me.
You know that? So when somebody looks at that book, they might think, oh, that's just it's just exaggerating. Is it an exaggeration? Definitely not.
Definitely not. It's not necessarily an exaggeration at all. And I'll give you a very simple example of it. Right? Let's say that, you know, you just you live somewhere like Turkey, you could probably live single guy, or girl could live there for like 1000 pounds very comfortably. I'm saying very comfortably. I like top notch dinners and everything in restaurants. So let's say you want 1000 pound right? Now, imagine that you went out there and you found one client to do social media for. Right. So this is for them, you know what it's like to find people, volunteers and issues and all the kinds of things you have, right? So imagine you find someone and you go to them and say this,
I'm going to do all of your social media, I'm going to charge you 500 pounds a month, and I'm going to do all your social media that okay, cool. You find two people like that, suddenly, you got 1000 pound per month coming in, right? And even the social media, because I've had an agency, I know what it's like, you could do all of that work in the space of a day. So you're working out? Sorry, you could do all of that work that you would get for those two clients or social media work? You could probably do it all in one day, a week. Right? So we're talking about you doing like about eight hours a day?
Or eight hours a week, sorry. So you're working eight hours, and you're basically living a life. And you're, you're free six days a week. So
you're good at making deals? No, that's because you've basically found something that has a high value, but a low cost to you. So eventually, what you would do is you would get three, four or five clients, why stop at one, you will charge a little bit more. And then at that point, you would actually get someone in your team or hire someone to go and do that thing for you. Is that, you know, I always say is this like the Starbucks secret, right? Whether it's Starbucks or Costa, when you go to Starbucks, the person serving you is not the owner of Starbucks, no way ever. Will you go there? And will they serve you why? Because what they've done is they've systemize their business.
And they've used people and software, and all these things, to separate them from their earnings. And that's what the four hour workweek is all about. It's about doing that. But the reason why it's so amazing and so brilliant today is because the opportunities that are available to us today are not available. We're not available previously. So I'll give an example like chick, Chef, Bill Phillips, who I worked with, he told me when I was interviewing him that when we were looking at software for the Islamic online university, like webinar software, we were quoted $100,000 Okay, so you know, at that point, if you're trying to start something where you need webinar software, like
we run webinars, often you have to be $100,000. So the barrier to entry is huge. Whereas today, you can get zoom for free, and you can start doing consulting immediately.
So the barriers are totally different, you know.
So you think a person who could start from nothing? Yes, not with nothing today and build something up. And if they had a nine to five, they could begin doing it on the side. Definitely. Like, right now, I would say the opportunity
Huge. They could start from scratch, no experience, no skills, nothing at all. And they could get themselves to a point where they're there. And you know, it's weird because when I first started, I used to say that I got a group of friends together. I'm like, we need to make money online, man, I've never done it. I've got no idea, right? How do we do it? And I started talking to them. And I said to them, guys, how do we make five pound online? And they were like, what's wrong with you? How can we find out what you pay for? US? Look, it's not, it's not the five pound. If we can make five pound online, we can make 50 pound online. And if we can make 50 pound line, we can make 500. And if
we can make 500 pound, we can make 5000 pounds. And I'll handle it like now there's been days when I made much more than 5000 pounds, right? 100. But that's, that's the kind of thinking, How do I just do a little bit of this? And then grow that and scale that and do all of that. So this is this is the thing that how do you learn to just do it, but one of the big things is really focusing and getting ready because you can get really good at something small, very quickly. Right? So this is the key that how do I how do I actually really focus in on something which is deep, which is important, which is high value, and then go after that. And this is the reason why we we suggest
consulting and advice because if you think about consulting, advice, all this stuff, it doesn't really cost you any money to make. Whereas if I've got a physical product, I have to make it in China, like I've done and it cost me 10 pounds, and I've got to ship it to the US, then I've got customers, then I've got Amazon to pay to sell it. So there's like a lot of complications around physical products. But if you create a product, which costs you zero, and you sell it for $500 Well, that's crazy from a profit perspective, right? Yeah. And there's there are people out there who want to learn from you. Right? They want they want your experience, they want to, you know, if you're, I
think if you're just far just ahead of them even a few years. Exactly, exactly. No, that can, that is a value to people, right? Yeah, definitely. I remember even just like, when I was writing a book, you know, I know my friend named Robert, she, she now does courses, you know, like, yeah, helping people write books. And this amazing because when you're, when you're starting out, you can really get badly taken advantage of, you know, like, even if you're not taking advantage of meaning you can get a really bad deal, right? Because you're just not aware of the industry. And it's not aware of something right, and just having somebody who's a few years ahead of you, or a few books ahead of
you, right.
Just saying to you listen, Have you, have you checked back? Have you done this have you this is what a contract should look like, but you know, all of those, and, and for somebody like that it's easy, right? Like they know that now, inside out, I'm sure all of us have something that we know inside out
that we could teach. But even if you don't have one, like if you think about it, right? Like, one of the secrets to learning anything in this way, I always tell people is that how do you? How do you know how to do something that maybe someone else has done it for 20 years? How do you do it, or the way you do it is you actually get the recipe, right, and you follow a recipe. So even if Gordon Ramsay, he's got a cake that he's taken 20 years to perfect, if he gives me a really good recipe, within a few days of me doing it from Fudger to dish every day, I would have actually perfected that to like 80 90% of where he would get it because I've got the recipe. So a lot of it's great. Yeah,
you didn't, you'd have to start from scratch, even though you've got no skills or experience, you actually get somewhere far. And this is the thing with me actually Alhamdulillah that I've been able to train a lot of different speakers, celebrities, youtubers on speaking and confidence and all these kind of things. And when you look at me, you're like, I've never heard of this guy. So how is he possibly teaching these guys who are doing like, you know, they got millions of views and all of this, how is he teaching them. And the way it works was very simple is that I went out there and I started to learn about influence. And when I looked into influence, I started reading books on it.
And I read a couple of books and two, three books. And then suddenly, I realized that all of the speakers who are speaking on stage, like a lot of them are just doing it naturally through experience. They've never looked into influence. So then when I got to teaching got to influence, I realized that I know more about influence. Now just because I've just read these books and done a bit of learning and reading and training and all this, I now know more about influence and someone has given 2000 talks. So I can now take that basic knowledge of influence, and teach them. But a year ago, I didn't know anything because I hadn't read any books. So books are great recipes for
upskilling ourselves. Same with courses and all these kinds of things. So literally, it's one of those things that you don't even need any experience. You don't even need any skills. You just need to have an interest and a passion in something. And then you go out and use recipes to take yourself a little bit further than everyone else. And then you can go and train people.
Yeah, it's like people don't have time to read, or they don't have time to do a lot of research. So if you've done the research for them, right, and you can give them
I think one of the things you introduced me to was book summaries which I've Yes, I just love now, you know, I've always felt and also one of the things I found us
It's audiobooks. Yeah, yeah. Listening to things on slightly higher speed. And just really, you know, like doing my walks every day and just taking in the entire book
has been quite life changing. Is it true? Like I read somewhere that if you've read five books on the topic, then you know, like, more than like, 99% of people in the world on that topic? In my experience has been about three books.
Three, really? Yes. And the reason I have not read three books on a topic, that's Yeah, exactly. But also, this is another reason in the sense that like, when I first read the book, one of the books I read was an influencer. And they showed me this model for influence, right. And then after that, I read this other book called switch, which is also about like, influence and change in everything. And I realized, as soon as I read those two books, hold on, this similarities here, like they've named it something different, but it's actually very, very similar in the way that they're saying it, right. And then I read like a third book, I think it was a Robert C, Dinis, persuasion,
psychology of influence and stuff. And then I'm like, oh, that's similar as well. So by me reading two, three books, suddenly, I started seeing the similarities between them, I started to see how they differ and all of this. So just two, three books, suddenly you're like, wow, like your knowledge. And then you think about how many people are there in the world that have read one book on influence? Well, it'll be less than 1%. Anyway, right? Let's say 5%, or 10%. But then you think, Okay, how many of you had to uninfluenced or three, like, cover to cover everything? Right? Almost no one. And then who's actually read them, and then gone and done something with it, like written
their own summary, or written their own version of it? Or gone out and trained people? You know, so this is what I'm saying that it's very, very easy to get yourself high into one area very quickly.
Okay, so let's go. Let's talk about what makes because you've worked for so many
excellent organizations, I actually see similarities between animal ribbon IRA, for example, right? Yeah. Yeah. In in the fact that they were quite innovative, like, top of the top of the field anyway.
Trying to do things very professionally, you know, Muslims felt good about them as brands. Yeah, I feel like,
so you've worked for some amazing brands, right.
And you've, like you said, You've been a serial entrepreneur, with physical products, as well as digital products. And so you, you've had a lot of experience that people, you know, the average person would not have had it in a way you've done the work for us, right? Try it all out. Because I remember when Amazon FBA and Kindle Kindle books, all of that stuff was being advertised, you know, as a, as a potential, you know, way to make money. And, you know, sometimes, I'm not sure. But you've actually been there and done that. So
now, with all that experience with it with with everything that you know,
I want to ask you, like, would you say that,
running an organization like, for example, I era? Well, my group is different
to how is it different to, for example, starting a business?
Yeah, I think it's a really good question. I think that when I left I era, I thought I was the finished article, I thought, I've done project management, I've done sales, I've done operations, management, that kind of stuff I didn't hire, basically, I was the dog's body. If there was an investigation to be done in IRA, it would give it to Mohammed, if there was like a CD teammate, give it to Muhammad, if there was a publication to be designed, give it to him, like everything I did, was crazy in that place at the handler. And this one of the beautiful things about working in a small organization, that you get to do so many different things, as opposed to the corporate world.
So when I left Iraq, like I was like, I'm the finished article. Now I'm ready, like, I'm so amazing, 100 linear, in terms of my experience, but when I got into entrepreneurship, and I started realizing what entrepreneurship is in the struggles I went through, and the development and the growth, it was next level, because when you have your own thing, and you have to work out, it's very, very tough. And I found it very, very tough, even though I had all that experience and everything, right. And a lot of this was because of mistakes that I made in my focus mistakes I made in the recipes I follow and all these kinds of things. But I think that if we ran our organizations, more like businesses, I
think we would see massive success. And I think this is the reason why people like Al McCullum have done really well. I think this is the reason why people like Penny appeal. And other charities have done really, really well because they start to think like businesses, and when you think like something, you eventually start to act like it and so they start acting like it
What that did is it produced a next level of result for these organizations. So I think organizations charities, I think they should definitely be run with business run as businesses, but with an Islamic ethos, so it's not like, oh, yeah, it's okay. If we spent 40% of our fundraising money on raising more funds, right? No, Islamically? We might not agree with that. Right? So I'm talking about like, with Islamic morals, Islamic ethics, actually running businesses in that way. And what does that mean? What does running an organization like a business mean? Like, in real terms? Yeah. So it means that, like, everything you do, is really focused. So for example, one of
the biggest things we would say to someone starting a business is make sure that you have product market fit. So Product Market Fit means that you actually selling something that the market really, really wants. And, you know, there's high demand for it. And it fits really well with the market and all those kinds of things. So getting those kinds of things, right is really, really important. Same with in terms of Systemising Systemising, is a massive topic. This is one of the things that
they talked about in the E Myth revisited, about how most businesses fail. And the ones that don't fail are the ones that have systems and stuff. So having real systems in your business, making sure that things are systemized people understand how to do things and everything, people people is one of the biggest elements to success, like you keep talking about an Multilib IRA, what I'm going to tell you is the people that I worked with in our marketing and Ira and places like that, they were exceptional people. And they weren't not just exceptional people. But they were exceptional people that had exceptional intentions in the way that they were going to do something. So I'm of the
mindset now that, you know, if you have two or three really good people, you can change the world. I mean, one person can change the world bank trauma, as an organization, if you just have two or three strong people, you can achieve amazing things. So before when I started, I was like, You know what the most important thing is money. And that's the most what, because with money, you can get people, right. But as I got into, like people development, learn about the value of people, all this stuff shifted for me. And I realized that actually, money is not the most important thing. It's actually people. And when you treat people correctly, and when you've got good people, they will transform
that organization. So for me, it's like having great people having, you know, great product market fit, having focus, meaning you stick to what you're doing, rather than brand extension. This one, the big thing shipped from the SRI people when he got successful was I'm not gonna be like, Why don't you do anomala as well? Why don't you do this? Why is that? No, no, this is what we do. Right? Trying to avoid extension is that extension is the killer of your business. So he would focus so deeply on only and we had this thing where it was like, double weekend degree seminars, every time you will bring something to him to say, why don't we do or why don't we do retreat? Double weekend
degrees? I'm like, that's what we do. Right? So focusing very deeply on what you do. The systems are great people, the product market fit, all this kind of stuff, I think is extremely important. And then the last thing I'd say about like how to run like a business. I gotta tell you about one of my, one of my family, friends, they doing amazing work. They have a they have like a business in the UK very close to where you and I live. And they're doing around 40 million, I think 40 50 million pound turnover. Yeah, my Sean's Brooklyn Muslims. And these guys are practicing Muslims who give so much money to charity, amazing family, amazing people, right? So I went, I went to see these guys, when I
started business, I want to see what these guys are doing. And when I sat down with him, he's like, look, you know, if our family like really got into it, we could even do over 100 million. And what I found with these guys, you guys are Pakistani as well. Right? What I found is that they had a massive, massive focus on sales. And I have the saying, which is sales solves everything, right? Because when you're selling, you're making money, when you're making money, you can deal with a lot of problems that you couldn't deal with before. So what they did is they had a massive focus on actually selling like more than more most of their stuff in that building. We're basically all
salespeople just on the phone, selling and all this kind of stuff. So I think like being able to market, being able to sell your services, even if you're a charity, because there's so much competition, all this kind of stuff, I think a massive, massive important skill that you need to acquire and you need to make sure that you know how to do if you're an organization.
Just like Lohan, that's amazing. Really, really beneficial points there. What if somebody said to you, Well, okay, people, you said people, yeah, how do I, you said two to three people really can basically change everything. Definitely. How do I find my two to three people? Okay, this is the right this is good. Yeah. What I would do first of all, is I'll give an example like when I when I was chosen for another job. I was told by acid that I was going to be the Emir. And when I was emir, the first webinar first seminar we ever did, no one knew who am I
But it was it was such a mission, right? Every time we were trying to sell the course they were like, Oh, is that that I'll go through. I'm like, Oh my God. Like, they didn't they didn't even know what it was. And because of that, we were like very tight on one hit. So I was like, how am I going to fill this thing out? We need volunteers. So I basically called my aunties up. And I took her on to their children and my cousins and stuff, and I call my Auntie's up and stuff. And I said, Listen, I need your son's for weekend. They're like, yes, good. Take my son's, you know, this is bedded Muslim. Take my son's please. Yeah. Right. So I basically got all my cousins together. And I took
them to the webinar suite to the seminar. And I basically told them what they were gonna do. And in the first one, most of the guys, they were my family members, who were the one, right? And so these guys are and this is amazing, because now like every time I'm actually one would, they would always ask how your cousins or your cousins went away? Yeah. Because these young kids who look like kids as well, just basically being there registering people and this and this and this, right? So I just used what was close to me. And I think this is a really, really good way of finding people actually, that going out there. Like, you know, most people, they have few 100 people in their phonebook,
right? If you were to go through every single name and go, which person? Could this person really like helped me? Could this person be good? Could this person be a part of this? Right? So I think going immediately to the people, you know, like I said, for example, I said came from Canada, saying we need to launch a mug repeatedly go to he went to me, who was like one of his best friends from the Xerox days, right? He went to another friend Mohsen. And a smile and and all these guys who are his best mates, and I became a mere one then became head of finance, one of them became a head of registration ahead of this. And he went to the people that he knew him personally, right. So you
don't need to be on the recruitment vibe, either, you could just find one person that, you know, that is really good, really into it, and you just go with them. Because the kind of role that we're talking about is probably going to be someone who's a visionary, or someone who's an integrator. And we didn't really talk about that. But visionary is someone who's like thinking, seeing where we're gonna go, integrator is the one that goes out and makes it happen. And I talked about how shift one of the srif was very fortunate to have someone like Nora, say it, who basically went out and made that vision a reality for him. So I'm saying that you want to get not only about finding the person,
but you want to find the right person, someone who matches you in terms of your values, someone who will compliment you, someone will who will do what they need to do. So me immediately what I always do, when I'm looking for someone, I always go to people I know. Or I would ask people I know if they know someone, because you can get trust from other people as well, it doesn't need to be someone you know, personally. So I think those are some of the ways that I would advise people to start with, and then later you can go to hiring people, you can go out publicly and all of that stuff. And of course, that works well as well. But you do need to like really find someone who's matched to you
that you can work long term with.
And for that, do you need to be very clear on what you need from that person. Right? I mean, it depends what stage you're at. So you're gonna say, yeah, it's just that, like, having experienced it myself. Sometimes, I don't know, like, the people that you know, who you think are going to be the best people? They might be good for a certain stage, you know? Yeah.
Is it because the visionary has to really articulate and bring them on board really well? Is that is that the key to the success? Or is it a bit of both? Like finding the the right person as well as the visionary actually explaining to the integrator and bringing them on board? Well enough? Do you know what I mean? Like? Yeah, I think it's a, it's a case of actually finding the right person in the sense that, it doesn't really matter. Because when you when you set off on a journey, what you'll find is, it's a bit like a plane, when a plane flies off, you will find that the plane goes off course. And literally, it could be that the plane is off course hundreds of times during one
flight. Yes. Right. So what you need to do is you constantly are adjusting and pivoting and moving. And this is what's going to need to happen when you're when you're starting an organization, you're doing something that you're going to be constantly pivoting and moving and adjusting. So what's more important than like, even the skills of the person is that is this person able to adjust with me? Is this person flexible? Is this person pragmatic, and these kinds of things that will then enable you to have like, a long lasting relationship where what you're trying to do really thrives, you know?
And so if if somebody's listening in, they're saying, Well, I don't know anyone like that, that I need, right? Yeah.
So I'm gonna maybe have to advertise I'm maybe gonna have to, you know, put word out. And like you said, like, ask friends of friends. Yes.
Practically speaking, would you ask would you say to them, these qualities like flexibility, pragmatism, you know, it's hard to see them without
I mean, you could write them on a job description, right? Yeah. And somebody might think that they're very pragmatic and flexible. But then until you experience it, you won't know. Right? So yeah, one of the things I've done is I've actually used personality testing. And there's a really good website called 16 personalities.com. And what 16 personalities.com They're taking the Myers Briggs test, right. But what they've done is they've actually made it realistic as to what each of these personalities mean, what kind of people are they? What kind of thing so for example, when I first started, and I did did it for the first time, I was an E, and TJ, which is like a commander.
And it makes sense when I was IRA, right? Like, I'm in charge, I'm telling everyone how to go, what to do all of that, like that was my personality type is actually shifted now. But like, that's the kind of personality I want. So if I'm hiring a PA, or a va, a virtual assistant, personal assistant, and I'm going to be telling them what to do all the time. And then they're a commander personality, that might not work so well, because they're gonna want to do what they want to do, right? Like, that's just the natural personality, I might want to hire someone else, right? I might want to hire someone who's a console, or someone who's something else where their natural thing is to serve, or
to help or to go and follow or do things. So I'm saying you can actually establish, just I mean, these are signs, by the way, there's not just like, definitely, that's the right person. But I'm saying these things together, they will start to give you a picture of who this person is. And, you know, going into personality tests going into competency based questions. So a lot of the times when we're interviewing people, we will kind of go like, Okay, what if there was this, this and this, like, what would you do? And then they just think out their heads and you know, oh, good answer, right. But if you say to someone, like, tell me one time that this happened, and then they're like,
Oh, I can't think of anything. Okay, great. Thanks for that. Right. Or like giving you real examples. Because what you want to do is you want to see how they think, you know, it's a bit like, I always say, Allah won't test you with chicken or Allah or test me with chicken. Right? Sorry, Allah won't test me with Carrillo right. You don't realize it's like, it's called biteable or something? Yeah. And I don't like curry that right. So Allah, like, when Allah deprives me of chlorella, I don't feel it's a test. Like if I'd never eat gorilla in my life ever again. It's not a test for me. Right? But if I don't eat chicken, if awkward deprives me of chicken, may Allah protect
us, right? I'm gonna feel that. Right. So when you're getting together with someone, whether it's in marriage, or business or partnership, you need to find out what are their chickens? Because if you have a conflict there, it's going to be a big issue. So a lot of the times rather than asking people, What do you like, it should be like, What do you don't like? What is it that you don't really like? So what do you mean by what is the chickens? You mean? Like, what can they not live without? Yeah, what are their non negotiables? What can they not do without? What must they have? And all of this, like, for example, just a random example? Yeah, I imagine that I want to, like a
sister wants to marry a brother. And she is fine with everything about brothers, except, for example, she can't handle smelly feet, right? That's a non negotiable, right? She's like, that's the only thing that I cannot handle. Now, if she ends up marrying someone who's like, really, really good o'clock and stuff, but he's got smelly feet. Like that could be a real problem, because she's like, that's the only thing I can't handle. Right? So for her, it's really important when she's about to choose a business partner, or marriage or whatever. So listen to what your feet like, right? So that, you know, you actually know that later on, you're not going to have problems in some
of these core issues. And I found that a lot of people are just generally very flexible and easygoing, and all these kinds of things. And this is why I like to work with people that I know, because I've got a good long experience of them. But definitely, you can go out, I've met new people. I mean, for example, my business partner, I, I didn't know him before I was introduced through a mutual friend. But when I spoke to him, when I spent some time with him, I started to understand his values, I saw that we could really work together. And hamdullah it's been like six years, since we've been working together as business partners at the moment.
What would you say? The reason why personality tests actually really resonated with me,
is because I think, in the past, I've tried to get a person of a particular personality to fit a job, you know, that, like so? So if somebody says to you, I'm willing to do anything, right? Yes. They don't usually mean it, you know, like, they say that, but, you know, they're trying to be nice, or they're trying to be a good volunteer or a good, you know, try to be part of your vision or whatever.
And if you take that literally, which I did, right,
and you then try to fit them into roles, that actually then you start saying, Well, why are they resisting? You know, like, why are they resisting this role? Like, they just said to me, they're willing to do whatever, whatever. Right? But it's like, okay, so you're willing to do whatever accept this or what other things are there that are exceptions, right. So so sometimes people at face value
are not presenting themselves as actually their reality. Right? Oh,
their personality and if you as a leader try to force them or fit them into a role that
that is just not a good fit. So like, I want to ask you like for an integrator, what is what are the ideal personality types, if any?
When the integrator it's got to be someone who is a doing person, so, you know, you have thinkers and you have doers, right? The integrator is the one who's going to take the abstract thing and make it into a concrete thing. So, these are people who take action. These are people who, like doing these are people who, like just always go Go, go go, right, as opposed to just think, think, think, think, think think. Right. So you want to find someone who is action oriented. And you know, I'm gonna tell you something on that when I'm when I'm looking for people. I'm actually very simplistic in my approach. I'm, like, very simple. I'm like, can this person like, is this person hardworking?
Okay, are they willing to work hard? Right? Are they are they are they like, do they have a growth mindset? Do they believe that they can learn? And they can do stuff? Right? And are they trustworthy? Like, that's it? For me, it's like, you know, they're also like, someone they like, the best people that that's on his truck best are workers is someone who's trustworthy, right? And someone who work hard, like someone who can work hard, someone who's trustworthy. Will I mean? Yes, yes. So this, these two things, and then for me growth mindset, because I don't want them just to be what hardware, I want them to do new things, I'm going to push them. So for me like these three
things, like that's like good enough for me. So even if I find someone who's got no experience of of anything, I'm confident in my own abilities Alhamdulillah to be able to bring them up to the level. But there's another thing that traction teaches was a really, really great book, if anyone's running a business traction by Gino Wickman. And in that there's the G WC concept, which is that when you have a role for someone, you need to ask yourself G WC, do they get it? Right G? Do they get it? Do they actually understand what the role is about right? And then W? Do they want it? Like I know, they understand what the role is how it works? But do they actually want to do it? And a lot of the
time, like what you're talking about? They don't want to do, right? And then the see that PWC? Is capacity? Okay? They might they might know what to do? They might want to do it. But do they actually have the capacity to do it? Yes. So if someone takes these three boxes, then it's like, okay, this is a really good fit. I'm gonna ask you a question that I've heard from other CEOs, right? of Muslim charities, male CEOs? Yes. And it's a bit controversial, but I'm gonna say it anyway.
And I want to know what you think about this. So they've said that typically, typically, they find that female employees, right, have a high turnover. Right? Like, they have a high turnover of female employees who basically come in, and now who can't stay on, who
have a lot of emotional and family related issues that then impede the work. And so they advise me that look, if you're, if you have females working for you, women working for you, then
you've either got to be really flexible, and be able to accommodate all of that.
Or, you know, you have to think very carefully about the type of person who you're hiring, if they're going to be able to hack it in terms of like, you know, the, the, the emotional stuff and the family related stuff that they've got going on, in their lives. Now, I used to think that that's, that's just stuff that people say, you know,
but having experienced it myself, to a certain degree, and to be honest, even in my own life, you know, when there's, as a mother, you know, there's so many things going on.
I happen to have a personality type where I can block that stuff off, you know, and, and kind of, probably people can't tell you know, if if I'm working with them. Yeah, but not everyone is like that. Not everyone's able to do that.
What are your reflections on?
Oh, and another? Sorry, I'm gonna add another thing to the mix. I've heard
somebody said this to me once Okay. A chef basically said to me, that women can't lead women.
Okay, because women don't like working for women. Interesting, apparently. Okay. Okay. And and that got me really thinking like, obviously that sounds very sexist but like just got me thinking about the organizations that I've worked with in the past. And I must say that I don't want to say that women don't like working for women but the the organization's I've had experience with in the past are basically men running like as the leaders right.
And there does seem to be some kind
have dynamic, okay? Where? I don't know if it's because women like having a male leader and like impressing men as like
a natural thing, you know. But there seems to be like this desire to please this desire to go above and beyond, you know, when, when women are working for men? Yes. And what people have told me and other even other sisters who run organizations have said this to me, some of them, not all of them
is that there's a higher probability of conflict.
They feel when a woman who's working for a woman is not happy about something, you know, rather than a desire, a very strong desire to resolve it. And I don't know, is this is this a personality thing? Or do you think there's some merit in the women versus men aspect of it? So you said a lot of controversial things, which if a man said it would get in a lot of trouble, yeah. But I'm gonna be very honest and straightforward with you. Right? I've I first experienced a lot of leadership when I was doing a McRib Institute. And the way it worked is that I was the Emir. And we had an Amira, right, and anyone that's worked in charities or Islamic organizations, they will know for sure that
it is the sisters that make these organizations is the sisters like when they're volunteering, brothers, like they airy fairy men that are sorry, bro, this happened. Like the sisters, they are the ones that took this, all of this stuff to the next level. And I used to love working with sisters over brothers, because I found them to be really, really good, really efficient, really hard working, whereas I found the brothers to be very flaky. Right? And this is why I made a really big deal about trying to get the system out because I'm like, mcglue, I see what the sisters are doing. And I and see what we're achieving without sisters. Imagine if we had the sisters fully activated
and right, because I'd come from that experience. So I think definitely organizations, voluntary things, sisters, they have that emotion that pushes them to that next level of performance, mashallah that a lot of guys have real difficulty getting to. So I think that performance wise, it has been amazing like that. I did I gotta share one thing. I'm glad you brought out rather than me, sister, even though like with the brothers that I would like, have a really good time managing the brothers. The sisters were amazing with me. They're all like, yeah, Brother Muhammad, what do you want to like that with the Amina? They gave her Helman, they gave her help, right? Like she would
have so many issues with the sisters that she was managing, because I don't know this dynamic that you're talking about, right? And when I would deal with them, they were all like nice and rosy and happy. And then like, she would always have to escalate stuff to me, because these guys just wouldn't take, you know her words and go, okay, the Amuro said, It's fine. It's like, no, no, let's take it to 100. Let him sort it out and all of this. So definitely, I found that to be a dynamic at play, which I discovered it at the maglia basically, with this whole thing about sisters, like leading sisters, and the kind of issues around it and all those kinds of things, right. But as a
whole, I don't think that sisters are deficient, I actually think it's the opposite when it comes to things. And that a great example of that is sister as well, who is one of the backbones of Muslim history. But before she joined us from Austria, she was a volunteer in, in IRA. And this is this is again, we will talk about how to find good people, like I was I was basically managing the courses all around the country. And I was selecting different people to try and run the DAO courses. And so I saw how each person was running it, right, like one of the greatest ones we ever did, was a sister coordinator. She basically managed the cell phone when it was done so amazingly, right. And same
with it was one like the way she managed, it was amazing. And I saw that and I'm like, right, you know what this person is going to work for me, like I can see the potential this person even though they're very raw, they need to work for me. So I brought her on board, I said, I need you to be wanting to hear all this kind of stuff. She came on board. And she was someone who dedicated 40 hours a week of voluntary time. That's insane. If you think about like life, and then giving 40 hours of your week, to a voluntary position, not a single penny, and to do it consistently for years. I've never had a guy who could do that. Right. So I'm saying overall, my view is that if I
can choose out, I would prefer to have women working in terms of certain positions, and one tree and all these kinds of things, because I just found in my experience for them to be like that. So I do think that of course they have challenges. So for example, my relationship with his mother has changed and she's got one she got married. And once she's got into family life, her commitments have changed, right? But she's someone who gave years and years and years of service for the sake of Allah and it was amazing. And she probably achieved more in those years, then like a guy would achieve in his lifetime. So I think there's this balance between like, you know, really getting the
most out of sisters but then obviously understanding that they will have challenges which are different to the brothers and they need
To be accommodated for, and I don't think it's a big deal if someone needs to kind of adjust things and everything, I think sisters are a part of our organization, and they need to be if we want to be successful.
And so what about with the leadership piece? Because I understand somebody's working for you. Yeah. But is there anything you think that female leaders so for example, with with the Amira, you know, that you might see that might change the improve the dynamic? Yeah, I think I think it does require, it does require emotion intelligence, it requires, basically, I think it's just about being a better leader, like the a woman might have a, you know, we live in a man's world, as they say, the challenges for women, when it comes to leadership are in everything, even if you're a non Muslim, and everything right. So this is a very normal kind of challenge. And I think that great leaders,
female leaders, they need to basically rise above it, and they need to find a way. And and this is what it comes back to like, what is a leader? Right? How do I actually do leadership, or one of the main things about leadership is actually the vision. And we've kind of gone full circle, because the vision, right, and we've gone full circle on Sheikh Mohammed, because we said he's such a visionary, right. And what needs to happen is that the the leader needs to show the flock or the followers, this is the promised land, this is the place where we're going to, and that needs to have mutual intent in there, right, it needs to be something that they care about. And if they don't care about
it, the leader needs to make them care about it. Right? And then really, it's about getting to the core issues. So imagine we're two sisters, and we're kind of like, you're just not listening to me and this and this, like, I could just be really authentic with you and say, Look, I'm trying to help you, I'm trying to lead you, there seems like there's something here, right? Like, I just want you to be open, tell me what it is. And like getting to those kinds of deeper issues as to why they don't want to do it, what they don't want to do, and all these kind of things. But sometimes I feel with sisters that there are a lot of emotions. And us as guys, we kind of get, we kind of get like
thrown off by those, right? Like, if I'm speaking to assistant, and suddenly she's bringing in all her emotions. I'm like, I don't know how to deal with this, or I'll fix it, which will make it worse. So it's back to those kinds of issues. But I think with with sisters, they just need to focus on being better leaders, they need to show their people the vision, they need to build that trust. Like a lot of the stuff that I did is that, you know, one of the things I said to all my people are IRA, like we have this thing where I manage people, Ira, they then went away, they had their own departments, I went into my own department, they didn't get much. And then years later, I came back
to manage those same people. And I was like, what, what is it that you loved by my management? Because we're all so happy and excited to be managed by me again? And I said, like, what is it about how I managed your all this stuff that you really loved? And they said one of the things was that, you know, you really, really, you really basically grow and develop us. Right? So they felt like I was growing and developing them. Another thing they said is that, you know, you help us to solve problems. So like, whenever we get stuck in our job, or whatever we're trying to do, you really helped us. But one, the biggest thing they said is that you care. Like that was one of the biggest
things that if they ever had anything in their personal life, I was with them. There's brothers and sisters I've worked with who volunteered, I tried to get them married and tried to help them. So like deep down, they know I care. Right? So because I care, I can be very harsh with them. And with useless Father, I've been very harsh with you in in the past as well. Right. But that's only because you know that I've got your best interests at heart. So if I come and speak to you in a certain way, you're like, yeah, he can speak to another because I know deep down he cares. I know. He knows why. The emotional, there's enough in that emotional bank account. To not deplete it if you have a
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But But if a lot of the times if you're playing the other role, where it's like I'm the leader, and you've must follow me and this and that, you know, that's gonna deplete the account and it will only work for for so long. And so sisters shouldn't be like kind of going on to that thing that look, I'm that Amira and this and this and this, right? Yeah, it needs to be the exact opposite kind of approach. And so you shouldn't, and if you if you haven't found the right people yet, you shouldn't get demotivated, the people are out there. You just have to find them and enroll them enough. I'm saying that one person can change the world, you don't need
multiple people. And the amount of things you could achieve by yourself without anyone else is kind of crazy, right? And then at the same time, I'm saying if you look at all the hired help, that's out there now with Fiverr and Upwork, and all these things, you can get a lot of stuff done and I'm saying in the early days, use the resources closest to you. So I'll give an example one time. Again, when I was in my early days, I didn't know about these organizations. I just knew I wanted to do something good. So me and some friends we said you know what, why don't we give like some some some and some dates in Ramadan.
to prisoners, you know, Muslim are in prison right all over the country. Why don't we go down to London prisons and give Muslims some some and dates, I had a connection to get some some. I had a connection for dates and everything. I'm like, let's do this, but I didn't have money. So I'm like, What do I do? And I've got a bit of money. But I can't cover all the prisons in London, right? That's a lot of thing. So what I do, what do I do? I went I went straight, who's closest mum, dad, auntie, uncle, Mum, can you bring everyone bring all the sisters, bring all the brothers, find out who's got money, find out what who's willing to give stuff. And then really, really take that money,
and then go and do that stuff. At the end day was me doing it. All my friends and stuff. You know, we rang up the chaplains, we basically got the stuff and we went down there. But again, resources wise, I went to those that were closest to me. And I'm saying everyone listening here knows friends and has family, you know, the kind of people that you can kind of go to. And so you just go so but the most important thing is that you yourself, remember, it shook hands, were saying he had amazing belief in himself, you yourself, you have that belief, where you're basically ready to go and you're ready to do stuff. And you just take everyone along with you. Because belief is one of those things,
which is contagious. You know, when someone starts saying I believe this, and I believe that and I believe that you as a human being you are attracted to that you start thinking wow, like, I want to be a part of this belief. So I'm saying if you can have that level of certainty, that level of confidence, that level of belief in your own mission and what you're trying to do, people will definitely latch on to a lot, they will definitely latch on and flocked reminds me of,
of other him green really like, yeah, when he, when he had this vision for Europe. I remember that very earliest meeting that he ever had. One of them
was he invited me. But he didn't know me, by the way. He literally
I had written an article about power on the internet,
which which he had posted on his blog. And he just thought that system understands power, right. And she's,
she comes from a knowledge background, etc. So when he was having his initial meeting with some days, it was the first time I think Hamza was there as well. The first time, you know, use of chambers Hamza, somebody else, I think socket. And he just sent me a message and asked me to come as well, right. And it's like, from zero from nothing, you know what I mean? But I think because he already represented so much in people's minds, you know, in terms of that award in terms of his own track record,
when he then said, you know, I'm starting a doubt organization, we want Islam to enter every home, you know, subhanAllah, like that kind of vision. It's like,
I'm here, you know, I'm, I'm going to be part of this. I think, if I'm honest, this is about the vision, but it's also about the person's track record, you know, like, because prior to that, I had been watching him on
that in the park videos. Yeah, yes. Yeah.
And even. And also, I had been somebody who visited Regent's Park mosque a lot. And I remember once being in Reedsport mosque and hearing this voice that sounded so familiar, like, echoing through the mosque, like from the Women's area, you know, the women's are on women are on a balcony. Yeah. Looking down on the men. And I thought I know that voice. Okay. And I looked down, and it was Arg, with a massive group of high school students.
Yeah, he's giving them a tour of the mosque. And he was explaining Islam to them, right. And with his voice, I knew it from the doubt in the park videos, right? Which had really impacted me, you know, those videos, they helped me as a teenager to feel very firm in my conviction, my own conviction or faith, right.
So that just having seen that person's track record, I guess, of that hour, and I remember when I heard him in the mosque, I just made me smile, because I was like, Yeah, this is he's the person you should be showing people around the mosque, you know.
Then when he called on me, in a way, it was like, a no brainer, you know, this person. If he walks the talk, right? He's not just
he's not just calling on us. But remember one thing, though, of how to go about this point, because really interesting, because someone might be thinking yeah, this true track record is important and and for trust is huge, right? But at the same time, I don't want you think I don't I don't have any I'm not sure are there in green? Well, I gotta tell you, this guy who we're saying is amazing for giving Dawa and bringing people to Islam and listener. There was a time in his life when he was not Muslim.
Right. So think about that for a second that you might be thinking track record. I don't have anything. This is someone who was not
Muslim. And now we're saying he's like the perfect person to go and tell other people about Islam and do all of this stuff. So there's a real lesson here. Again, for SPS, again, if you've got no skills, if you're really, you know, no experience, anything like that you can get to where you want to get to. And this is exactly the kind of stuff we do, I was mostly we're trying to raise people's mindsets to realize that the capability Allah has given you is next level. And that capability is not just the fact that your heart pumps like, you know, millions of times in your life, it's not just that your kidneys are amazing, actually filtering things out. It's not just that Allah has
given you amazing capability in your physical body, and then mentally, it's kind of left you alone, right? It's like, no, he's giving you amazing possibility, in your thinking in your in your heart in the way you do things, not just your body. And you need to start believing that that is the case for you. Because once you start believing it, you can start to think and take action on that you don't need to be a great speaker or this or that. Allah by default has given you an amazing brain. And this our brains, if you just ask a question, your brain will give you an answer. And it's just how it is right? It might not be the right one, but it will give you an answer. So it's about realizing
that the potential that Allah has given us is far beyond what you believe. And this is one of the reasons why I'll handle a coaching I work really well in coaching is because I see a vision, and I believe about people what they don't yet believe about themselves. Right? So we have this thing where someone comes to me, and they're like, oh, yeah, I don't know, I'm not good at this. I'm like, No, I know this person's good. I know this person can be good. So then I start convincing them. And they're like, Well, if this guy believes in me, maybe I can be, and then they start believing, and then they start acting accordingly. So this, this kind of level of belief, we need to raise that
belief within ourselves in terms of what we're capable of. And of course, the results they don't know Allah is gonna give us the results, but the effort, the thinking, all of these things, these are in your control, and you can do something about it right now. Just not gonna happen, brother, Muhammad, I mean, subhanAllah, I could we know that we could keep talking to you and asking you and you would be able to provide us with so much, like, so many answers to everything. So I would like to invite you again, you know, in the future, and Charlotte.
And for today, you've given us so much to think about how much it's not good to be focused, it was focused, actually, because I'm looking at my list of list of things that I wanted to cover, and we kind of naturally did cover them in it, which is great.
Can you just tell us, for people who just to end, you know, like, people who are interested in? So first of all, can you tell us the difference between Muslim mastery and Muslim CEO, just so that people show anything that you want to do in terms of growing your income, anything to do with business, you just go to Muslim ceo.com. And you can find all the details on me anything to do with your personal development, anything to do with like, for example, I'm really helping people to overcome their doubts, their fears, their anxieties, to feel confident to speak with impact, anything to do with confidence, speaking, action impact, just go to Muslim mastery.com/confidence.
There's a free training that I've done, which is all about taking your confidence to the next level. And so that's how you can get in touch with me with any of those things. And you know, what, when next time, we'll come on in, shall it be great to speak about the kind of work we did together before you went on to the niqab debate, and all those things, because those are like some of the deeper things we did with confidence and communication, which I think were really amazing experiences for me as well as yourself.
Definitely, I was actually going to mention when you said that you know about the speaker training that I've attended your speaker training as well. So just uncle heron, I've benefited from that. And I've benefited from the feedback that you gave me. Yeah, after certain television performances, or appearances.
That was quite
brutal, I must say.
And actually made me cry, probably like, Oh, wow. Sorry, to people, my wife. But at the same time,
you know, I really believe that if you're not honest, and if you don't have you know, that kind of Extreme Ownership of, of your own, kind of where you are, you cannot take yourself to the next stage. Right. So you've got to accept and see yourself for what you are. So yeah, I guess I because I believe in that I really valued
the honest feedback, and I don't think anyone would have actually
fought in a way you kind of forced me to sit down and take the feedback, you know,
because I don't think I asked for it. Okay, sorry. I don't remember I don't remember or maybe maybe it was like a debrief or something. Right. Okay. Um, but yeah, I was. I was I actually really bad
did it because, yeah, it was brutal. But at the same time, it created self awareness, you know, yeah. And actually changed a lot of things for me in terms of like, afterwards,
I became a very selective about the types of television things that I would take on, you know, because it wasn't clear, it wasn't really obvious that that every single type of appearance is actually good or positive, you know,
necessarily something that you should take part in. So I became more kind of careful about that. Instead, I was like, in some documentaries and things like that, you know, that that were, I'd say, more becoming, I think of somebody who was an expert, rather than somebody who was being forced to kind of have these fake debates, you know? Yeah, sometimes.
Sometimes that you don't have much control over, you know, how they're presenting you. I mean,
but also, it made me more self aware about, you know, the fact that how you're supposed to be on camera, like how sensitive the camera is, you know, yes. on your on your movements, and
how you're coming across
the colors that you're wearing, I mean, stuff like that, you know, it really literally made me question all of that.
And
there was a time when I did feel a bit like, oh, maybe I shouldn't do this stuff. Right. It was a bit split second, I would say, yeah. And then I was like, no, no, you've got to learn from it. Everyone starts off somewhere, everyone starts somewhere. And we just haven't had the training. We just hadn't had the training, you know, in terms of media training, if you're going to get up against Douglas Murray, you know, yeah, he's obviously someone who's had
training of some sort, or at least had a lot of experience. So
you know, you can't allow yourself to be to feel kind of, you know, demotivated by maybe not, not doing the best that you think you should have done. Right. Yeah. So yeah, I learned a lot from that feedback as well. And I appreciated the the honesty with which you delivered it. I'm really sorry. I don't remember what I said. But I can imagine how brutally honest it would have been, but Inshallah, I hope it made you a much better person than speaker.
Yeah, I do think so. Because I think that's how people become better speakers. Right? Like, yeah, you have to you have to see yourself with all your flaws and be able to, to point the flaws out in in order to remove the flaws, right? Yes. How do you feel that I've become a better speaker over time? Definitely. Yeah, I think, I think, the natural progression that's happened in terms of the confidence because you know, especially early days, I think there's always people have a lot of doubts. Especially I think for a woman, it's, I think it's amplified, actually, because you're in this space, which is, like, usually reserved for men. And then you're dealing with non Muslim, all
these kind of different situations. So I think that the challenge is definitely harder for women. And I think that, you know, as you've kind of gone and done more of this, and you become more confident, and you've overcome the whole imposter syndrome, and all of that, I think, naturally, you become much, much better and more powerful hamdulillah in terms of going out there and doing things like this podcast, for example.
Yeah, I think one simple change that I made following that feedback, is I started to smile. You know, like, Yeah, I know, it sounds strange. But as in somebody who's wearing their cup, you don't realize that you can come across quite aggressive. If you're not almost like exaggerating, Lee being Yes. Positive. Do you know what I mean? Like things we discussed?
Yeah, you can come across quite aggressive, even though you're not feeling aggressive at all. Yeah, you know, but that's not the point. It's not actually about how you're feeling. It's about how your body language and things are coming across. And I remember we had a conversation about body language that was very important. Yeah. And, you know, you know, first of all this is this is amazing, because, like, the reason the reason why all this stuff is so important is like, I remember I was watching this video, and they were talking about how, you know, dancers on stage performance. They might, they might practice for hours, four hours a day for weeks, just to do a three minute
performance. Okay. Yeah. And I'm like, when I when I see him, she one of the Shrieve kind of mentality Islam deserves better if they can do for dance and music and this and that, like, how much time should a speaker be taking to practice this speech? If a dancer does hours per day for weeks, and then according to Allah, they're not doing anything like that. Then what should a speaker do? And sadly, most speakers don't practice his speeches. So I'm like, Look, we need to raise this and you guys can become like 100 times better than where you are right now. But it requires that same thing.
For an drive and passion that these dancers have,
you know, a lot of the time though, I felt that in some of our organizations, we are sisters, or anyone was kind of told to do something, just like, you know, at a whim, okay? Without being given much training, do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, not not being get on and do it. But this, this is not just a women thing. This is this is like a general thing. And what's them organizations, because they're not Systemising, because they're not good at delegation, they don't understand. They're just like, Okay, go do this, right. And that's what we need. And efficiency, we should have, you know, of course, in media training, we should have almost like, practiced it, we should have had
like a roleplay, or even just a real camera be, you know, and seeing how we like getting behind the camera and seeing how we come across on camera and being given feedback as to like, I'm just saying, like, obviously, hindsight, is 2020. But I mean, I feel like, if I was to train sisters, to be on media, right, or to kind of, if I was going to encourage sisters to speak for Islam on media, I would want to invest in them first, you know, like I have made the investment in terms of real media training and stuff like that. So what I've ended up doing is taking that on myself, you know,
and apart from the training that we received there afterwards, I think, I've also gone on to do like media training with certain classes, Mount masterclasses and things that they have, or with the Guardian, you know, they have these master classes for media, being on camera, how to get your message across, you know, like, in a in a stressful situation, like, like a TV interview and stuff like that. And I think that's what's needed, you know, that professionalism of like, let's train people. Because it doesn't, it's not a natural, it doesn't come naturally. It's not something that just comes naturally, something you have to be trained to be aware of,
for example, a parent,
and you've told us where people can get in touch.
Do you also do one to one coaching for people? Do you often
it's kind of crazy, you asked me that because I am getting desperately chased by people on my programs to do one to one. And in the old days, you couldn't get me away from doing coaching for you this my natural thing to do coaching and all this kind of stuff, consulting. But you know, the way my life is now and I like being free and all this kind of stuff. I'm very, very hesitant to do one to one I don't do want to the only people I do want to one is people like yourselves who I know personally who might ask me for advice or listen that I do not do one to one publicly any more probably because I would probably charge too much. And I would like want it to be someone who's
exceptional, like really exceptional. That's the kind of people I want to spend my one to one time with, because time is so precious now. So you have to if you're really exceptional, then maybe I would consider it. But otherwise, I've got loads of amazing programs at Hunter level CMOS, you.com and stuff. And you can you know, get onto those and Shama, and I still do coaching the one to one, because it's just like that you come on board, we have a discussion, but it's in a group setting so everyone can benefit rather than it being just me. And you. Yeah. And you benefit from other people's questions, right. Yes. perspective. So yeah, I feel like this has been like a bit of a
coaching session. People will, people have had got to listen into almost.
Well, thank you, brother, Mohammed, is there anything else you want to like leave people with? And maybe we should, you know, anything you want to say about Sheikh Mohammed as well, like, just?
Yeah, I just I just want to say that, you know, I think Sheikh Hamza Sharif has been an amazing individual in my life. And I think that not only did he teach us so much while he was alive, but I feel even in his death, he's taught us so much, because everyone's learning lessons about him. Everyone's really reflecting about him. And at the same time, we have this whole thing around people questioning their own lives and questioning what they want to do. And the whole point of these kinds of situations are that you question your life and one of the great things that Sheikh Mohammed told me is that you can increase your reward or you can earn reward right now by doing nothing except
changing your intentions. So when you're thinking about everything we've discussed here, highest standards and doing something with your life and legacy. If you're listening to this right now, I'm saying if you just set a firm, a sincere intention, to transform your life and to do more and to do better and to duels, Allah will accept a lower reward, Inshallah, and less than the best thing you can do in this moment right now.
Brother Mohammed, I really appreciate that. May Allah bless you and your family. May Allah bless Sheikh Mohammed Sharif's family, may Allah grant them cyber and cyber to everyone around the world. I think he was affected.
Yeah, and you know, my unless I'm about to give, allow us to benefit and
Learn from the people who have passed before us. Right? Because Subhan Allah, if you think about Jackman was shave, he had a short life, you actually had a pretty short life. But what an impactful life, you know, shows you, you know, you don't actually need to live till you're 80 you don't to make a huge impact if you are a person of action. Yeah, because I think that's the thing, right? You're taking action, action, action action, then we're all going to leave this world right.
So how much does often occur
in short, a lot of brothers and sisters, I hope you benefited from that I'm going to put the links that you need for brother Muhammad's programs and maybe also some of the links to the books because I think about 10 to 15 books have been mentioned during this during this episode, we'll put some of those links as well in the in the comments or sorry in the description. Please share this episode with somebody who could benefit from it. Share it with somebody who cared about sharing mom with a Sharif share it with somebody who might be thinking about money or thinking about a vision that they want to implement in the world and not maybe not quite sure how to start how to, you know, get
moving.
And you can listen to this podcast episode on various platforms here on YouTube, but also on Muslim central through Spotify, through Google podcasts, I think it's called and wherever you get your podcasts you know on Apple, etc. Just like Obamacare and and with that I will leave you
Subhanak alone Moby hamburger shadow Allah Allah Allah and stuff Hirokawa to be like, Salam Alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh