Channel: Bilal Philips
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Salam alaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh Bismillah Alhamdulillah wa Salatu was Salam ala rasulillah we stopped by praising Allah panatela and bestowing his peace and blessings upon the greatest man who ever walked this earth Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam to receive brothers and sisters. This is welcome back to the voice of Islam platform where we're hosting a series of weekly talks of importance from New Zealand and from the UK because I'm based in the UK use of chambers, your hosts, and we've got some wonderful guests with us. We've got a co host as well in Mohammed Thompson, who's based in Auckland, Salaam Alaikum. Mohammed Thompson, welcome slab Ricardo Hope everyone is well
enjoy our listeners and watchers.
Absolutely. We're all feeling good, better now you've given us alarm? And of course we've got
Well, the first time we've had Rob McKay, who's a Maori Scots or a Scots Mari? I don't know why. Greg's
chiona wonderful. Yeah. Here and here in winter. downunder. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. You look at as well without had on a big jacket. Obviously, you don't have much heating. heating systems in New Zealand, right? I think the heaters in the other room. Oh, I'm the one and only
Yeah, pretty much.
And last but certainly not least shake bow Phillips all the way from Addis Ababa, who's the big man in fro as you can see behind him the international Open University formerly the Islamic on online, you know, university well, so I want to come shake. How are you?
I'm fine. Alhamdulillah it's winter here doing it in Addis Ababa, but still is nothing like what you guys are experiencing down there. And
in New Zealand, for sure, you know, six degrees and minus six and all that. Here, it just it gets cold, you know, long johns,
when it rains, hail comes along with it. That's about it. Otherwise, you once the sun's out, the place is like just comfortable, just, you know, nice to go for a walk, although COVID-19 restrictions, you know, require us to wear masks and, and this kind of thing. But otherwise hamdulillah I've been stuck here for the last six months now.
I should have left months ago, but I'm the lights, it's good. You know, we're still working on our plans to set up the Institute for Islamic banking and finance for the continent, here in Addis Ababa Hamdulillah, Allah bless that work, shake and make it happen. And give you lots of hair, and this world and the hereafter as well.
So today's topic, as everybody kind of knows, it's it's an extension of the topic that we did two weeks ago, which was talking about racism, and we were talking about Islams sort of tradition. You know, talking against racism, of course, it will, we found out it was very deep, and very meaningful. And as soon as the sun came as soon as the Islam came to the Arab Peninsula, and then was spread out into the rest of the world,
racism with something was spoken against and acted against so panela. So in the same way, today, we want to talk about the tradition of the ownership of human beings. Like it's the ownership, you know, even the term slavery is wrapped up in a lot of things, which is, which needs discussion, and it needs to be
you know, academically, so, we've been reading and shake, you've also read into this Jonathan Brown's book on slavery. And there's a lot of really, really amazing literature out there, which we would advise the brothers and sisters read and do their own research on it, because this is only a general discussion. This is not an academic expose a of the of the whole topic. So it's not a thesis and shake blood. I know that you've written many books, how many books have you
written in your in your long career?
Well published books, yes, plays around 55 or 60 books, but unpublished, you know, there's another 30 or 40
To editing and revising,
for publication, how do you manage that? So Pamela, how do you manage to write so much? I mean, with all your traveling and family commitments, and, you know, it's amazing. How do you how do you fit it all? In? Do you sleep?
Yeah, sure, of course, you know, but what it is, is that, you know, I usually get involved in different
projects and issues. For example, now I just finished doing, you know, a series on the names of Allah, right? understanding and applying the names of Allah. Were in Ramadan, I was doing it every day on Facebook. So,
of course, that wasn't enough time to cover all 99 names. So I'm still doing it after Ramadan. So while I'm still playing, you know, maybe every other day in Ramadan, it was every day. But, you know, once I got going in, it's I realize this needs to be a book, because there was no book, covering it in the way I was handling it in terms of, you know, developing a system of how to understand the name, and then apply the name, where it is applicable, where it's not applicable to affirm, you know, the uniqueness of that name to a last one to Allah, and to understand all those who claim to the attributes and the characteristics of the name, they want to give it to human
beings. Because this is where people end up, either your worship along with his attributes, or your worship, his creation, in the name. Yeah, it's one or the other, you know, so it's identifying where that's happening, and etc. So, so the book is coming not because I plan to write a book, before I started this project is after I got into the project, and I realized the amount of time and effort I have to put it out today, this should be a book and people can benefit from it. Yeah, it's like, most of my writings have, have come out, not because I was a planned writer, and I had a set of topics in my head I wanted to do, but circumstances, you know, all my books, will soon realize
that was because I was establishing, you know,
university education in Islamic Studies. And there were, there was a paucity of books in the market, you know, weren't available, hardly, you know, back in the 90s. And so, that's what drove me to, you know, go and research, gather the material and prepare up stuff, this is for university or for, you know, the two legs of Jesus,
involved in dour need literature, which are simple, really understood, and so, so, so, my writings have always been
based on necessity, you know, as a necessity, the mother of invention. So, that's, that's my case, 100%.
Of that, I mean, in terms of what you mentioned, about some of your publications and the need, that there is a need to explain the foundations of Islamic thought, right? So that the whole concept of the Shahada attain and your adherence to that Shahada, it, you know, and, and and juxtaposing that with the critiques on slavery, you know, because isn't man in slavery regard whether he likes it or not, in the sense that, I mean, we're not going to use the things about shackled, and in, you know, indentured labor, we're not talking about that we're talking about this slavery, of man, in his condition in this world.
What is that? That's, I mean, that's, that's very true. And, you know, when the early companions
other nations, and they would ask them, you know, what brought you here, you know, you guys come in off the desert, you show on your camels, you know, look at our civilizations, the Persian civilization, the Roman civilization, you guys, come, you know, trudging in with your sandals on and you know, what brought you guys here, you know, why, why are you here? That said, you know, we came to remove people, from enslavement to other human beings, and taking them to enslavement to Allah. That's how they described it, specifically, they use those terms, you know, so as you can see, as the core statement, removing man from enslavement to his fellow man, to the enslavement to God, so,
you know, that that's the core of the issue. You know, whatever happens after that, and what people might do
And then say and, you know, practice etc. This was the core message which the Sahaba took to the other nations as they came in contact with them. And they topple these empires and set up, you know, Islamic
a good say Islamic States etc in their place and liberated the people from enslavement to human beings to enslavement to God.
Yeah, that's a beautiful way of putting it. And so So Rob McKay, how you doing this morning Rob?
Yes, great. Not too cold, not too cold. I mean, we are in winter, you know,
the southern part of the globe, we don't get as much as much sun at the moment like you people do at the top. Yeah, yeah. But you're you've done a lot of work and your lot of political and social work around the Maori community. You yourself are of course, you have descended from a Maori family as well. Is that your mother? Your mother is a martyr on my mother's side. Yes. And in our paper in our genealogy.
A Scotsman came over in the 19th century, married a full blooded Maori who was the daughter of King tapeo, who was from Waikato, nasima hooter. And so that's the coming together of tikanga have two coaches, Scottish from Scotland, and Molly, who are the indigenous indigenous people of all to New Zealand.
I can't prove through that line. So I'm Scottish and Maori but more Marley because I live here. I've been to Scotland several times.
And I go in your in your summer, you know, it was July, August. Well, it's supposed to be but it moves around a lot.
Right. We've had, I think rains continuously for the last three weeks.
Rain. Yeah, no, it's a lovely. It's lovely Scotland going up there because I was staying with people in East Kilbride. Yeah, and it took me to the to the Isle of Skye. Yeah, up to Aberdeen, Edinburgh. I just love Edinburgh. Beautiful. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's like something out of a fairy tale story. Yeah, it is. It is true.
But again, this is the colonial past as that yes. Well, I think you're you're right. Yeah. I just wanted to add just, you know, as Rob was talking about his genealogy, believe it or not, you know, my part of my grandparents came from Scotland to the McDermott.
Part of my family come from Scotland as well, Scotland and Cornwall. So, yeah, come
on out. You're the only
one so of course, I'm Celt. Anyway.
I haven't got any kilts. Shake below if you've got a kilt if you've got a tartan attached to your family or
I can bring the scarf in if I can get it out of the cabinet.
Yeah. Anyway, so yeah. So Rob, you actually embraced Islam two years ago and handler, thank God.
And do you feel that you are enslaved?
Or you were your lesson slave, because of Islam, you're not you know what I mean, in slave to having to follow that, you know, and accumulate this world at the dunya, as we call it, the dunya. Well, it's interesting when shake
at the moment of taqwa, when I, on the day of El fit after Ramadan, that's when I became a Muslim. And I said the Shahada. And I think in that saying, he led me through that prayer or that induction into Islam.
He wanted to clarify, because you know, having been been a priest in the Anglican Church,
you wanted to make sure that he made the point that there is but one God, and that Jesus is a slave of God, a prophet of God. And Mary is
also a servant and a slave of God. So the notion the notion of being enslaved, there's similar language in the New Testament. Paul, the apostle described himself as a slave of God, a servant of God, I think the Greek word is do loss.
in Mali, it is toda Kanika upon Allah. So the notion of you are submitting to the will of Allah, you are in submission, and the end the very
way I was attracted very well that Muslims pray. Because when you pray, it is takes on the form of submission. So you are you are you're you actually committing yourself to Allah and this and this and it's expressed in the form of worship in the form of prayer. And when you, when you put your when you put your head to the to the ground, and your and your nose to the ground, and you're submitting to Allah,
I think you made a comment to Tim that I do social work. And I work with release prisoners. And it should be noted, yeah. And the 90%. I mean, a good a huge percentage of people in the prison system in altero, New Zealand have Maori and they there they are in a form of enslavement to the P drug to alcohol, a lot of it's due to due to drugs and alcohol. And in the sense that is a form of enslavement to the devil, to the things of the flesh and the world. So you either are, as Dr. Bilal Philip says, You're either enslaved to to the things of this world, or you're enslaved to the very attributes of God. And you submit to the will of God. It says either one of those two. And I am
happy that I have made that commitment on the day of eat a bill fitter to submit to God
under law, so you feel better. Dr. Dr. Anwar, who gave you the Shahada? He is the Mufti for the International Open University. He's
Yeah. So he led me through the Shahada. And I think they actually filmed it, as I was saying, as I was saying it so I'd be interested to see that but your two years I've been Muslim, and I have so much to learn and prep. So so much also to unlearn.
Here, and I also appreciate that double out Philips books, I read two of them, because brother Pharaohs, he loaned me one but I bought the other one. And it's to do with the issue of Christology. Who was Jesus is to do with the, what you call target or the unit.
Those are very important things. Yeah.
Yeah. That's really good.
That I can check on.
I just think it was Islamic monotheism, monotheism, yeah. monotheism. Yes. Islamic monotheism, we don't just say monotheism, because, you know, Christians say, you know, we're monotheistic, you know, we were three you believe in one God, but but it's three in one, you know,
monotheism, which has no, in one, three and one five in one is just one one. That's it.
Yes. Because when I met my Bishop, and my fellow priests who still remain as my friends, they say to me, what does it mean for you now to be a Muslim? And I actually use the word, I'm now a pure monotheist. Because they continued, they continued to describe themselves as monotheists. But I said, No, I'm a pure monotheists.
That in the nature of the One God is One being, he's not divided amongst or composed of three persons, which is, which is what the Nicene Creed teaches.
you say that, you know, we follow in the Unitarian tradition? Yes, that which was the dominant, you know, form of, we could call it Christianity, following Jesus, they were the dominant ones, you know, in, in Egypt and Syria. And these years, they were the Unitarians. They were overcome by the trinitarians, coming out of Greece and Rome, later at a later period, but that we're following that same tradition, the same tradition of Jesus and his followers. Yes. So, if we go back to the, to the historical Jesus, as Philip says, the real Jesus, Jesus was not a Trinitarian. He was a Unitarian. And he quoted, he quoted from Deuteronomy, the Shema.
And then you see in Matthew 12, a certain person asked him a question, what is the greatest of all the commandments and he quoted the Shema, here, O Israel, the Lord our God is One, the notion of You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and strength, but the notion of God is one it had in the Hebrew, the notion of the oneness of God. So we've come. So in the first century, the church was okay. I mean, they're focusing on one God, but I think after the first century into the second century, there were changes as you move from a Jewish culture into a Roman
Grieco culture, things changed. You're quite right.
And actually, I do have lectures which I, I gave on.
on that, you know, I've done research into James. James, you know, called the brother of Jesus. Yes. Most Christians never ever heard that they want
to say, hey, look, go in your own Bible, see, you know, verse this, you know, chapter that, you know, gospel this, and here it is mentioned, hmm. She's got a brother by the name of James, you know, that he's the one who headed the, you know, the church? Yes.
Yeah. And, you know, there's a whole bunch of information there. I remember, I gave a talk in Australia, too, at the nunnery, you know, a bunch of nuns that came back, and I gave this talk, and it was like a big eye opener to them, you know, and not even really, because he has been sort of sidelined. James was just the sidelines, you know, Catholic tradition and scholarship.
He was particularly sidelined, because in the reformation, the German monk, Martin Luther couldn't agree with James. James says, Faith without works is dead. And Luther taught us by sheer grace, you don't earn it, not by doing good deeds, just believe. So there's the difference. And yet, when you read
the Gospel of Matthew, He upholds the teachings of Moses, he upholds the laws, it holds all those principles. And so you see, there's a there's a break in the teachings of Jesus because He, he held to the commandments. But when you get to Paul, he somehow altered it. And stress there's more of an intellectual assent to the one or two to this faith. And, and that's a departure from the Jewishness who stressed the importance of the law, the importance, I suppose, in Islam would be Sharia or doing righteous deeds.
And I will also say, Dr. Phil, upset that the Reformation didn't go far enough.
Because they were, they were people who were challenging.
They went back
to the Pope, and then we're good to go.
Right back to Jesus's time. Look at what James was saying, and the people are who are out Jesus, you know, and then and then preserve that if they had gone back there, then it would be a whole nother story. Yes, but because they were reformers who wanted who challenged the doctrine of the Trinity.
There's Michael servetus, a brilliant Bible scholar. He said, The Trinity is superfluous. It's not biblical. And what did john Calvin do with him? The famous French
reformer, john Calvin had him burnt at the stake.
Michael servetus, in Switzerland, I mean, it said, because, unfortunately, they can't do that today. But
only the Reformation had been eliminated the concept of God being composed of three persons, because I even found that problematic. The notion that to be a person has to have a will in the mind. And if God is composed of three persons, he will be have three wills, three, three minds, and three centers of consciousness. Because I'm a person, you doctor below you also a person, we each have within us a center of consciousness, and I could that would actually contradict the purity and the unity of God. You know, God is the supreme consciousness. He's not has three centers of consciousness. And this is where the doctrine of the Trinity becomes confusing.
To books. Yes, ask.
Don't ask how to just just believe. That's what we told you. You believe it and you're saved. You know?
This is unfortunate.
The question of, of really understanding and researching I mean, there's, there's so much information out there. If a person really wanted to, to find out, you know, what was what is the truth of the matter? There's, there's plenty of information there that can take a person to the reality that God is one and indivisible, and that he didn't ordain slavery on people but people
ordained slavery on themselves no till it became a it became a worldwide phenomenon, you know, this is going back to our actual topic, you know, you know, people are trying to connect all Islam and slavery, hey, this is the world and slavery, you know? Yes. Arabs and slavery. Yes, you know, but Islam and slavery meaning that Islam promoted slavery, no way. Absolutely no way, all of the the literature, the statements of the prophet SAW Selim the core on everything, the whole civilization did not build itself on slavery, you know, what we call slavery? Now, you know, what, which the West, you know, has left us their legacy. And all of the problems that we're faced with now, Black
Lives Matter and all this that's, you know, going on. I mean, this is part of the legacy of slavery, which was instituted by Western civilization, what we now know,
the founders of Western civilization, they build themselves on slavery.
No, no place in the in the Muslim world, which excelled places like Spain, in Syria, in Damascus, the big leading centers of knowledge, Timbuktu, etc. None of these centers of learning and civilization were built on slavery. No, yes, slavery existed, as it did everywhere in the world. You know, yes, Islam didn't come and say it straight out. And no, instead, it put practical principles in place, which would eliminate gradually slavery, because when they
ended slavery in America, back in the
1800s, they ended it officially. But it didn't end. It just took on another form.
Because all these people, you say, you're now free, free to do what we promised you 100 acres and a mule and whatever, but this was never given for them to restart. So now you have people who are working on farms, they say, okay, you're free, get off the farm. What do we do now?
So they ended up right back in, in on the on the plantations. And then slavery continued for many years after that, even though they were officially on paper
emancipated. So the reality is that in Islam,
what existed all around the world it recognized, and it it put principles in place, to make to humanize it, do humanize it. And so the person that's why, as you mentioned before, what do you how do you define slavery? There are so many different definitions, if you go and look at the
documents, or the reference works, etc, there's so many different definitions, you know, and virtually in every different region and part you would have to define slavery in its own terms. Okay, there's a common factor, okay, that a human being is owned. Okay, that's a common tractor. But after that, you know, it has so many other different variations, etc, etc. And the reality is that this was in existence and all of your Islamic texts from the Koran from the Hadith of the Prophet SAW Selim, all of them focused on manual mission, setting slaves free
from any virtually any and everything, yes, if you previously you know, or you did a synonym for slave, you know, and you killed another human being Muslim freer Muslims live, so and so. So the whole system was, was designed to minimize slavery in the society and to eradicate it gradually, you know, following systems which were applicable and implementable, and people were encouraged to do this. So
this is the
You know, the reality is when we look at slavery Now, of course, because the West is being focused on, you know, the, the Black Lives Matter movement, etc, you know, recognizes that what is going on now is, is the legacy from slavery, you know, you were at its core,
the people from Africa, were looked at as subhuman.
This is what this is what is at its core, they were looked at as sub human, like Australia, you know, the brittanys, they were looked at as sub human, they were put in cages that, you know, taken away from their families broken up anyway, anyhow. So it was this, it was this view, that brought out the worst aspects of slavery. Whereas in Islam, you know, the prophet SAW said, the Koran, you know, clearly lays down the principle that there is no difference between people and all human beings came from Adam, there was not a separate item for black people, you know, a separate item for yellow people, and a separate item for people, they all came from Adam, and Adam came from dust,
that's the bottom line, you know, so this is this is the Islamic view, which then removes the foundation for slavery, based on race.
It's, this is the point, because, of course, there was there were white slaves in America, they are the white people are taken out of England and France. So they went to America slaves also, but because they were white, it was possible to get out of slavery, you know, in a few generations, or whatever, and get into general population, and then you look down on the black people who you were, you know, working in the fields along with before, because it was, you know, so called racially based, you know, the whole concept of race was developed in order to justify enslavement of people.
So, it is a whole different mindset that is behind that, you know, same thing with the red people have, you know, the Indian so called Red Indians or, you know, Aboriginal Americans. You know, same thing with them. They were, you know, dehumanized.
devils in the Hellfire were either red or black.
God was white.
Jesus was blond, hair blue. I know, he was born
in the Middle East.
He was blond hair, blue eye, you know, this was a, this was a serious case of indoctrination, you know,
on the world population. And, and it's, and what we're seeing today is an extension of that. It's not finished. And I need, yeah, shake his head. And Rob, it's very interesting, the way it went to the Trinitarian. Question and Christianity and Islam there. I think we're gonna have a separate show on that as well. But that is a form of enslavement as well, we can talk about that. So by Daniel, sorry, Diana says slavery does exist in the modern times, child labor, in mining industry, for example. And there are many, many other
forms, you know, types of slavery you see around the world because of industrialization, and, you know, particularly capitalism. Do you want to comment on that, Rob?
well, I'm a socialist. And, you know, I just had been to political meeting with the Maori Party. We have a we have a sense of wanting to share.
Our Prime Minister just sent her a Dern has described herself as a not verbally but it's in the media that she's a communist.
But capitalism, well, New Zealand is part of the Western democracies that are based on capitalism. I'm not sure whether it's helping because we find that the rich are getting richer and and the gap between the rich and the poor is getting much wider. And
but I think, with COVID-19 Corona Coronavirus, we see that some of the people who had high powered positions that in New Zealand and now working in grocery
stores, picking the shelves working alongside the blue collar workers. So it's kind of bringing the white collars down to the blue collar workers, and seen a different perspective of life. It's very humbling for those who who are once in a very well paid positions having to be employed and at least pay.
But capitalism, I guess that's what we've got. I've always thought that
what Karl Marx came up with was an idea he sold out of the Bible. After all, you know, he was Jewish, and his uncle was a rabbi. So, the notion of sharing having things in common,
but, you know, we believe it should be done. New Zealand has, has a lot of socialist ideas, our welfare system was put in by the Labour government, with the endorsement of Methodist church people, by the way. So I'm not too much into politics, except to say I want to see the Maori people here have a greater voice and a greater access to resources, so that we can overcome the problems that we are facing as an indigenous people. Where does that?
Where does that
you know, the treatment of the Maori civilization, if you like, where does it come from that
then being on the on the right at the bottom of the pile? Well, Dr. Pillai mentioned about black, that won't happen.
But black people matter, okay. And we we say brown people matter to and we we endorse the black people matter here in Aotearoa, New Zealand, at a time that we should not be coming together under COVID-19, 1000s and 1000s gathered at aotea Square, because we saw an issue, no doubt you people saw on that, on that film clip of George Floyd, being with someone with a policeman's knee and his neck, which really disgusted us. But as Dr. Pillai and Philip says, that has come as a result of what America had done way back
when bringing over slaves from Africa to the United States. And, and now, now, we see that a great injustice had taken place. And you see it in your own country term. We saw it on TV, on CNN on television screen, people pouring into London protesting. And because we've seen an injustice done, now, Mali compared to other indigenous people, or other other colored people don't have it as bad as the, I would say, as the blacks in America.
Because that is terrible. And to think that America has been a Christian nation,
who incidentally, they endorsed slavery, because that's how they understood the the Bible, the teachings of the Scriptures. That is what separated the Confederates south of the Dixie line. And those people north, the people who held to the Bible quoted those texts that's endorsed slavery.
Because in the Old Testament, there was slavery. And in the New Testament, when Christians were in the Roman Empire, the economy was based on slavery. But you would find that pool similar to how Islam does it, teach a certain principles, it doesn't need to come out and say, let's get rid of slavery because you know, he was outnumbered. But eventually in time, it took a long time for slavery to be eliminated.
Bomani to be at the bottom of the heap was due to the fact that Parker came over here formed an agreement with Marty, they couldn't enslave us because we outnumber them.
they formed a treaty agreement. And they kept that treaty until such time boatloads boatloads of the poor and the weary from Britain came here and outnumbered us. That's when they took over in New Zealand, but the militia, and Gee, we had sticks and they had guns with metal balls. And they, you know, and they took over how manned Mali have been dispossessed of 66 million acres of land,
which was once out, you know, we feel we can feel what the Palestinians must be feeling. You know, this was
Yeah, yes. And because America has the chance to call it
Yeah, so holla that that strong word strong words. There. We got Abdul Malik. oshakati, saying he's one of our Maori revert brothers. They're in New Zealand. He was on the show a couple of weeks ago. I think it was the Yep, you guys might have seen that. There are many different types of slavery, slavery of the body, and mostly all
The mind in the Western world until you find the Creator, he said, because he found the creator and Allah subhanho wa Taala
became a Muslim. So that D enslaved him that that he was enslaved, he felt he was enslaved. That's it. That's an interesting way of putting it. I think that's similar to what Bill Phillips shake, beloved Philippines is talking about, right at the beginning of the show. What I want to add here, Tim, is this Molly, prior to pocket coming used to have slaves?
Really? Yeah, I mean, they wouldn't slave, another tribe, you know, and when, when the pocket the white man came here,
they gave Marty the muskets. And the first tribe to get the muskets was the people from the far north Napoli. And you know, the story behind that they brought back slaves in the hundreds, you know, and it really, it really shattered the whole multi worldview.
Party of technology. Because, you know, once you get the musket, you can kill more. And they just enslave people, and to become a slave and motorcoaches, to lose your manners to lose your sense of self dignity. And you could never go back to your people. But because there were so many people, when went one month multi tribe would conquer another take these people enslaved, it was so many of them that eventually. And of course, the bloodbath between Mali, there are more Mali, killing Mali, and then modified in pocket. And that caused an enormous
in the consciousness of martyrdom, a lot of shame. And that's why they finally discarded the practice of killing each other. And they embrace the Christian religion, because it was promoting peace.
And that's one story. It's a classic story that is known to most Modi.
And I'm sure many of
you might be listening when we remember that why after we sing, come on laka Madea, we embrace the son of peace. We felt ashamed of all our all of our harder, all our sins are what we've done to each other, and enslaving our brothers from other tribes.
Mashallah, wow, that's that's amazing that one of the brothers points out, even Robert, he said, a negro slave
slave, originally from Habesha Ethiopia, Bilal is one of the evidence of the story of Islam respect for human equality, anti racism and social equality. Check below if you want to comment on that.
Yeah, of course.
You know, the concept of color
as being a basis, or ethnical background as being a basis for slavery, you know, and injustice and exploitation. This was something which Islam eradicated right from the very beginning, when the prophet SAW some of them, you know, had built our time on top of the Kaaba, after taking Mecca with having beloved climb on top of the Kaaba and call the event, you know, with all the Quraysh tribe around who I, you know, look down on him, you know, and people like him as being inferior this than the other areas standing on top of the Kaaba promises, I'm just making a statement, he could have put up a number of other people out there, you know, you know, blacks were not the majority. So you
could say, okay, the majority, so whoever he puts up, there's gonna be black anyway, no, they were a minority they were, they were slaves from other places from Persia, from Rome, from, you know, other parts of Arabia, etc. So blacks were not a majority. And slavery was not equivalent to black. You know, it was just whoever got caught.
If you are not from another tribe, just like the moral situation there, you know, try to fought and you captured some of their people, you enslave them, let them meaning that they became your servants. Eventually, they marry amongst you, and they become one of you, and you carry on. So it's not like an institution, which is going to stay the same forever, you know, because it's based on color, you know, or special ethnic ethnicity, then that's it, it means that forever, you know, so the whole history of Islam has rejected that kind of a concept. You know, yes, Muslims were involved in, in the slave trade, etc. But it was not the main thrust. You know, when Europe came to Africa,
it was just, you know, a free
For all grab as many of them as you can sell them and buy them and, you know, everywhere it was a, whereas most of Muslim,
Arab and non Arab who converted to Islam, etc, their expansion into Africa
was trade. They came as traders, and it was it was 90% trade very little enslavement to place young people there and had slaves and they sold them. And the Muslim traders guide them along with the goods that they've traded, bought and everything else that they brought them back to the centers, the major, you know, cities etc, in different parts of the Islamic empire. So that was a side issue. It wasn't the main issue. Spain was not built on slavery.
Damascus, you know, was not built on slavery. They didn't bring in all the slave labor to come and create it, no, no people worked together, the scientists, the, you know, the specialists in the different field, agriculture, etc. Architecture and all they lived and worked together. So slavery was was never you could say, as the subject would say, it was never really a part of the DNA of Islam.
It was something in existence, which was a side issue, it was never the main issue. You know, the prophet SAW Selim, you know, instituted so many different instructions, you know, concerning freeing slaves, so it shows the Islamic the Quran itself, in no place in the Quran, does it say take slaves, make slaves, you know, it's this tenant saying free this name for this or free this live for that or free this name for the other? This, this is this is the, this is the texts, this ended society function either. And of course, when people move away from the original teachings of
the correct teachings, no doubt, Satan is busy. Satan, you know, little ideas, or why don't you do this? And maybe you can do that, and so it interfered and gave a bigger role to slavery, though it never reached the role of nation building. No part of the Islamic empire, which stretched from Morocco to Philippines, no part of the Muslim Empire was built on slavery.
Whereas reality in terms of slavery from Western civilization's experience, it was built on slavery. Europe was built on slavery, they didn't end slavery until Okay, it was no longer cost effective.
1700s and 1800s when it became no longer cost effective, it's okay maybe we should stop doing this now.
So now we're the good guys, we have free these people look like they did.
they get a lot of money from it anymore.
Check that out. That that's my point that abolition of slavery act 1870s 200 years plus ago. But reality is that people living on $1 and $5 is it goes into billion and literally billion people that are living on in terrible conditions, living working in sweatshops, working in workshops,
providing clothing and produce for the for the capitalist markets around the world's for our shopping centers here in Britain and America, in New Zealand and so on and so forth. Those people are living in a form of slavery, are they not? Yeah, wage slavery. That's what the, the communists and socialists would say, I just imagine, right, Rob, that I actually went from communism to Islam, you know, I,
you know, reading Marx and Engels and, you know, I was into the socialist communist movement, right, combined with what they call the
afro centric or
you could say cultural
socialism. You know, we're focusing on Africa.
Because of origins, etc. And, you know, the big figures that came up people like Lumumba, and, and, and others, you know, Kwame Nkrumah and Ghana know leaders who were trying to break the bonds of European servitude, but the servitude to the Western civilization, those who stood up, were eliminated, you know, they killed them. You know, that's just so nasty. And, but anyway, that's history and where we are today, I think we've reached a historic point. Because, for myself, I mean, I was around in,
in America, back in the 60s,
I was still in high school and not, but late 60s 70s, early 70s, you know, when the movement that gained certain momentum, and they were burning down cities back then to, you know, back in the late 60s, with the hippies on one side, you know, and the Black Panthers and, you know, cultural nationalists on the other side, you know, that it did come to that point. And, and, and it brought about change, you know, because people are saying, okay, all this looting and burning, and all this stuff that will happen. Listen, you know, America was built on that. The Boston Tea Party wasn't the Tea Party.
It was a it was a riot.
America was born out of a riot. And you know, as one of the famous figures of that era, you know, who is unfortunately in jail, held in jail, big finger of that type. His name is called Rob Brown. You know, he, he is named he accepted Islam, became jameela al amin, and he's being held in jail. Police setup, he was set up by the police claiming a tee shot and he didn't shoot and there is no weapon, and he's been in jail for the last 25 years. They're really evil. Anyway, he was very famous for his statement that when people were talking about violence, and so on, so back in the 60s, he said, violence is as American has cherry buy.
apple pies, the apple pie. cherry pie? Oh,
yay, they may you know, loved. Oh, well. Apples, you know,
we should bring in brought Brother Mohammed Thompson because I'm feeling bad about it. I'm really sorry. Mohammed Thompson, of course.
Voice of Islam here. It's a subject that these guys are all very confident on. And I'm having gotten to it. So I'm just cruising home listening modal. Sharla? No, no, it's a fascinating conversation, it will it could go on for hours and hours, I can see that I really can't see it. But you know, one of the things I like to also bring your your guys attention to is a slight kind of like an indentured labor system. And that is the universities what's happening with universities because, of course, the Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu, ala, asked for element nafion, you know, not knowledge, which is beneficial. Nowadays, kids are now going to university get a piece of paper right?
Now that piece of paper is now costing them in the UK, it's costing 9000 pounds a year. And if and that's just for the the tuition fees, shake, blowout, this is very topical view being the head of the International Open University there in the background.
You know, where does it stop it? Is it is this a form of slavery as well, indentured labor where you, you get the 50,000 pound debt, and then you have to pay it back for the rest of your life in America 250,000 it cost to become a dentist. I mean, something like that dollars. Now. So Isn't this a form a new form of modern slavery?
Who wants to go first?
I don't know about new form, but it's a form of slavery because as soon as you there you've got this indebtedness, and a lot of the time it's interest. They got interest on it as well in some countries. And so you're already bankrupt before you you start in your life. Yeah, so you just display for everything. Otherwise you escaped the country and try and, you know, go somewhere else and utilize what you've learned somewhere else. That is definitely a form of you're a slave to a master and the master is the one who is linked to the money. And then you usually have to tie yourself to some
For so many years,
and then try and work it off. And usually when you first become a graduate, there's not much you're making you, especially doctors net, they sort of not making a lot for a while a while, I think you're better off to be, you know, forget about those things and become a tradesperson where there is shortage everywhere, especially in New Zealand trades, people are getting probably more money than doctors and dentists now, and in bigger demand. And you know, they don't come out actually get paid to do their tuition, you know, with the apprenticeship system.
Yeah, I mean, so that that was what I was alluding to rob McKay. I mean, when what is his end, I mean, because the fees seem to be going up and up and up. And there's a disparity between whether the poor can afford this. Now the poor can't afford to go to university. Right. So there's a little bit of support for them, most of them are now selecting the option to go straight into work, and not study. You know, in New Zealand students are facing the same problem that they're having in your country in the UK, enormous bills because of paying for to pay now their own pocket to get educated. You know, fortunate for my firstborn son, he got a couple of Mali scholarships,
able to achieve a conjoint degree. So he's a bit of a capitalist because he took out a student loan and he invested into the warehouse.
And because he didn't really need that the loan, but my other son is doing an engineering degree, but he has to work. So you know, it's well, it's, this is this is the burden of achievement. I just want to add something to that Dr. bland Phillips says about making people like the black people, subhuman. That is the true thing. I remember quite vividly the aborigines of Australia. wasn't till 1967 they were declared as human. Prior to that, you know what? They were classified as?
foreigners and flora. No.
It was back in the 1920s. I was still out shooting them like rabbits. Yes. Yeah.
Like what the Americans do in the deep south. With the Mexicans. They still do that? Yeah, yeah. I met the Mexicans. I was in Mexico. And they, they treat them like just animals. It's just like game. You shoot them McCrone? They come across the border in Texas, they're well, so if things don't seem to have moved on, shake below, what what's your take on the the issue of education and paying for education and the value of that education? And also like it being a form of slavery after you know, you've got to pay that huge debt back. And its interest base, like Rob McKay say,
yeah, you know, the thing is that this is why, when, you know, we talk about recent times in the Arab Spring, you know, and we look at Gaddafi, for example, is a classical case, here is Gaddafi. Right is supposed to be the bad guy. But actually, if you read his, his, his history he did for the country, and whatnot, you know, nobody else has ever done, you know, he provided free education for every citizen, from kindergarten to PhD.
Don't tell me that Libya is richer than the US.
richer than the UK No way.
If Libya could produce provide that free education, it could be done in America. It could be done in the UK, and Australia, if they want to, but they have deliberately put this out of the reach of the masses of people in order to keep the masses you know, as what would we call ignorant, modern ignorant but then it's this modern form of slavery, wage slavery or wage labor, you know, they're they're tied to their jobs by the wages they get which is only enough to to survive.
Very few make it out of that.
Those math masters, so and they raise the price of education to keep the masses on educated, because it becomes like, you know, a captured population that they can utilize as they wish as they need, you know, so this unemployment and keeping people unemployed and you know, as always
kinds of issues and problems with, quote unquote, capitalism, you know, which, though Yes, it outrun communism and socialism, left them in the dust. But the reality is that the cost to the people, you know, the cost to the masses of population, where in America, you know, America represents
they put it again, something like 5% of the,
of the world population, something like this, but they, the the rich of America, you know, represents something like a quarter of the world's population, you know, in terms in terms of possessions, ownership, you know, companies, etc, etc, you know, wealth is concentrated there.
And it's just getting more and more concentrated. So, this is a never ending cycle, that people are caught in. And, I mean, this is one of the big motivating factors for me to set up the university, you know, especially for people in the third world,
where, you know, education is at such a low level, you know, the percentage of, of students in in, in the educational system, very, extremely low, unthinkable numbers.
And the main factor is that it can't afford the education cost. So this is one of the goals of the International, Open University, is to provide scholarships across the continent, and beyond, you know, into India into Pakistan into the Far East.
But we began with Africa,
because this was the English speaking, closest area for myself, and our headquarters is in the Gambia. So, we began this process, it's not an easy to, it's a mountain were climbing. But eventually, we do hope to open up learning centers, you know, across the continent, and the majority of the countries where students will be able to study for free.
And the education that they will get, will be a modern education. But we're not talking about setting up my dresses, we're talking about modern education, but one which is delivered from an Islamic perspective.
So regardless of whatever subject, what is taking, they are getting guidance in terms of how to utilize this knowledge, because we may get used good knowledge, you know, beneficial knowledge, but if we're not guided in how to utilize it in the society, then it becomes a weapon, which harms the society.
Okay, Jazakallah khair, for that shake below, what I wanted to do now is to kind of sort of sum up the whole thing and try and bring some solutions to the issue of what we see as
wage slavery, modern slavery, and so on and so forth. Obviously, we can see in the room here, we got four people in the room, and all of them have made a decision in life to to worship the creator in its pristine form, not as three or a human or a car or a place or a person, you know, so and, you know, do you think that that's got a lot to do with our
you know, emancipation, are we emancipated because we've taken that decision? That's one thing I'd like you to you guys to address, and and a few to generally say, what are the solutions for us, you know, as a human race, to move away from enslavement of the individual of the soul, and returning to something which is of a higher value, shake blouse, first of all.
What do you know the prophets I said, Ahmed said ties up the dyrham rob the dinar, that the one who is enslaved to the Durham or the dinar, the pound or the dollar, you know, he or she will always be in a state of wretchedness. Their life would be wretched because once that becomes your God
Your God becomes this life, this material life, the the products or the
bits and pieces, the trappings of this world. Once we are addicted to this, then I life is cursed.
And that's why the problem is that somebody also said, A dunya morona. This worldly life is cursed by the owner mafia, and everything in it. its contents are cursed, in law, degree law, except for the remembrance of Allah wamalwa law and what helps us to remember a law well I Limon, the teacher scholar, or the Dalai Lama and the student. So from that, we can see the province are seldom stressing the importance that we all be either students,
If you're no longer a student means you learn to reach the status of teacher. And that's what you should be. You should be teaching what you learned. If you don't have the knowledge, then you should become a student. And you could be a student while being a teacher, being a student in certain areas and teaching in other areas. But that's why the processor never said Heroku Manta, Alamin Palawan llama, the best of you are those who learn the Quran and teach it to others. He didn't just say the rest of you or those who learn to cry, he could have said that too. But he added to it and teach it to others. I mean, that's what makes one best
escapes the curse of the dunya.
That that's not to say that the dunya can be not be utilized and enjoyed right shape below.
Of course, of course, you know, once you are liberated from the dunya, you are no longer a slave to the dunya. Then the dunya serves you.
The dunya becomes your slave, your servant,
and you are able to utilize it without it damaging you. But when you're addicted to it, then
you become a drug like a drug addict, you know, you can't let it go. You're it's always on your mind, you can't rest at night you can't find peace, you can find real happiness, it's just temporary just pops up for a minute is gone. And you know, your life is just constantly running after the dunya the rat race, you're constantly in that rat race. So that's the point that, you know, by seeking knowledge, and this is knowledge in all of its senses. Knowledge, first and foremost love alone. That's the most important knowledge that we should have to know who is God. And be clear on it who really is God. And once we've understood who God is, then we have to live a life in which we
are conscious of God.
That's the goal, to be conscious of God in all of our activities. And then we come also conscious of those around us of the people around us, their needs, the society, etc. And we should be beneficial to society. And we can only be beneficial to society, if we have knowledge and skills and abilities, which can benefit. So this is where that process of education and
gaining knowledge, passing it on sharing it, billing the society, you know, on that basis, and the basis of obviously, authority, which forms the foundation for everything.
JazakAllah fair shake, allow for that summing up and we're gonna go to rob, over there in New Zealand.
Yep, well, yeah, I just want to just recap what Hello, Phillip says, using that analogy of the student and the teacher. I've already come into Islam, two years really and so I'm still a student. And in terms of my spiritual journey, in terms of what does it what we've discussed, I'm reliant on the teachings of the Prophet
I come to mind. Tim, what you mentioned in those questions, Moses, because Moses, it was, he was told to remove his shoes before the burning bush. God's presence was with him and he,
he put God first in his life. That's why when he came down with those tablets, there's 10 commandments. God has mentioned first, you shall have no other gods. And then you come down to the fifth commandment, Honor your father and your mother, this respect for people. And he finds it the last commandment was, Thou shalt not covered.
So in that, God, first people mix things last.
the world has has, has changed that the world I'm talking about the secular West, have eliminated God. That's why they're in darkness. And I don't know this disrespect lobby. I don't know, I mean,
but they put things first, not last. And that's the problem is a text in the New Testament. It says the love of money is the root of all evil, not money, but the love of it. So, material things I look at the life of Jesus, when I read the gospel, he lived a simple life, very simple life. You know, the foxes have holes, the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head. He was homeless. So that the notion of gathering material things as a goal, it's quite silly. I used to be in the funeral business, I used to be a manager of a crematorium and cemetery for 14 years. And I thought myself, goodness me, that's the great equalizer and death, and acquiring all
your wealth means nothing when you stand before our maker, our Creator. So it's a matter of loving your family, your people, your farmer, and to know that material things only insofar as they provide you shelter, and food, to sustain you. Not not to put them first, but as a means to, you know, God comes first. And the beauty of coming into Islam is this idea of decluttering. one's mind one's thoughts, and you can't help but declutter. If I can put it in a Buddhist sense. When I entered into the motion of taqwa not far from my house, the budget I am attached to, it was very Xin, I say, because there was nothing in it but space and, and a beautiful thick carpet. And there was no
candles and, and, and other furniture and all kinds of things. It's just space. Just make and to worship the Supreme God. I thought, the beauty of that, and and the simplicity of that. That is a great gift to the world, in Islam, not to be cluttered. But decluttered
Yeah, Mashallah, that that's very profound. And I echo that sentiment as well. And we've got Brother Mohammed Thompson, just to wind things up as well. So not much left really to say after these two
speakers have put a lot of very eloquently together. But all I say is like his, his
being someone who I run my own business and things like that, but it's, it's, it's only by the grace of God, that to do that, but it's putting putting him first. And in that way, things come after that. Like, like said, you don't chase the money, the money comes, if you do the right things in Islam, the money will come if it's good for you, if it's good for you, because it's Yeah, I just keep praying all the time, if it's good for me to say, get this job or this job that and help, can help, then do other things, like our work and things like that, then bring it you know, Bring it on, if not keep it away. So this is like anything in every job, no matter what it is not, I'm talking
about profession, whether it's a street cleaner, or the you know, the most great surgeon, they all got their importance. And everyone who has said should have the pride in their job, they can maybe study study a bit harder and get something better but as you're doing that, that is a very important job. And it's people should look at it that way and say thank God that they've got the job and they can do that. And they should do it as a bistability for the sake of God and then pray to better themselves and inshallah, then things will improve. Not to say I want to want to get more money so I can, you know, get this new Ferrari or the latest McLaren I just saw on the TV today $2 million, or
something like this for a car. You know, it's just like, what for you take it out and you smash it up. It's gone. And the thing is, one brother always reminds me that the cars you buy it today it's new, it gets old breaks down
It's no good. So what is that? You just, you know, we have to go to the things that don't break down. And the one that's always there for us, and is always there for us. Yeah, I'll repeat that. You know, Allah subhanaw taala
that's why Sharla
no hair to our esteemed guest shake Blau, we're going to have you on very shortly again, I'm sure. Rob, we're going to have to get you on and go through your story, because that's what the Muslim community he loves hearing is the story of how, you know, what's the journey behind it all, shake blouse got one as well, very interesting one, from communism to Islam.
We've all got one, that the most important thing is that I think we've done I hope we've done justice to the topic, Islam slavery, and let's not be enslaved to the dunya. But go for the vastness of the Hereafter, not the narrowness of this small world. And, and, and, and, and although it's beautiful, and it's glittery, and it's glamorous, sometimes, and it's desirable, the most is the most desirable thing that we can ever focus upon my brothers and sisters, is the era which is everything you want for ever, as always described in the hobbies. So he had these. So I asked the last panel to accept all of the contributions from our esteemed guests. And we'll see them very
shortly on another show. Very, very, you know, in the not too distant future. And I asked her last panel, to accept this beautiful faith of ours and for all of those who are out there who don't know much about Islam, contact voice of Islam, down there in New Zealand and and the land of the mores.
And I'm sure you're going to get a beautiful welcome down there. By the way, it's a beautiful place. It's a fantastic place to visit and to live. So if you're looking, I think, Rob, you're probably contactable and going to help them get in. Right? Especially if they're a guy like a plumber or an electrician, or a doctor or a nurse because I heard that that's that that's that's a need right down down there in New Zealand.
Yeah, absolutely. So guys, thank you very much for tuning in. You know, wonderful show. And amazingly, amazingly generous. Guests have been today. wonderful guests. ls panatela accepted from them and from all of us, and from all of you out there at Santa Monica on what happened to LA he What about a cattle