Ali Ataie – . on the Diffused Congruence Podcast The American Muslim Experience
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Welcome to diffuse congruence. This is episode 71 of the American
Muslim experience. My name is Jackie Hudson and I'm here with my
partner Pervez AdMob. Oh, he's lucky. Welcome back listeners feel
like it's been a while not only have I not it has been. Yeah, not
only have we not recorded I haven't even seen you in a while,
which for us is pretty rare. We've finally worked out her issues,
because the lots and lots of therapy is healing.
That's right. That's right. But yeah, I mean, really excited to be
back. And I am super excited about our guest today. Yes, we're joined
today by Dr. Olea Thai, who has been involved in interfaith
activities for over 15 years. He's been a guest lecturer and guest
instructor at several colleges and universities including Cal Poly
state, UC Davis, UC Berkeley, UCLA, Cal State, East Bay and
others. He studied various Islamic sciences with local San Francisco
Bay Area scholars and is a graduate of the butter Arabic
Language Institute in HUD remote Yemen, and studied at the
prestigious Dar Al Mustafa, also in HUD remote under some of the
most eminent scholars in the world. He holds a PhD in Islamic
biblical hermeneutics from the graduate theological union, and is
a professor of Arabic Quran and comparative theologies at zaytuna.
College, the first accredited Muslim college in North America,
Dr. Anti thank you so much for coming on our show. Thanks for
having me. It's an honor to be here. Thank you so much. And yeah,
so I mean, we are thrilled. And so there's so much to talk about, but
as we often like to do with our guest is to talk about where your
origin story begins and where your roots are, right here in the Bay
or elsewhere. Well, I was actually born in Iran. So I'm Iranian. I'm
that rare species of the Iranian Sunni?
Yeah, so we came over and 79 during the tumultuous revolution.
So I grew up in the Bay Area. Been here ever since?
And do you remember? I don't remember anything wrong? Or? It's
not in my frontal lobes, at least, maybe somewhere back there varied?
And why did your family land in the bay any particular reason? My
father had a brother that lived in the Bay Area for a while. So we
came, we came straight to San Ramon in the Bay Area.
And so I grew up here went to elementary school in high school
in San Ramon
wasn't practicing Muslim at all. There was no, there was no Islam
emphasized in my family at all. A very secular.
And I remember in elementary school, I think my sister and I
were the only non whites in our entire elementary school, if I'm
remembering it correctly. I don't remember anyone else, any other
person of color in our entire school.
There might have been I just don't remember. And so
you know, I get that question. It was during the 80s, obviously. So
this is, you know, the, the time of Khomeini and Iran Contra and
whatnot. And we get a lot of questions from people. So my
tactic was just to deny, I'm actually, you know, my sister had
this whole thing about, we're half Italian and
half Latino, and things like that. So to keep up with her story,
oftentimes they would, they would come to me to check her story. And
then I'd be like, well, whatever. She says, you know, you have to
compare notes at the start of the day. Exactly. Make sure the story
is lined. Yeah. So actually remember in fifth grade, right,
the very, very religious students in my class, very Christian,
approached me and said, Are you muslim? And I remember my heart
sinking? And I said, No, and I wasn't I didn't identify as
Muslim. But then he said, but your name is Arabic. And I'm like, oh,
man, this guy knows this stuff.
So I said, No, I actually converted out. And he said, to
what, and I said Mormonism, because I had actually attended a
Mormon Sunday school for a couple of years. Because some of my
friends that at that at that elementary school were Mormon, and
they invited me to their Sunday school, and he said, go there,
and, you know, kind of just hanging out with them. But I said,
I'm Mormon. And then he said, I don't think you're allowed to
convert out of a religion. And I remember being just so bothered by
that. And they said, let me ask the other so there's another sort
of biblical scholar amongst the fifth graders.
Fifth Grader took it very seriously. Yeah. So I remember I
remember he was walking over to her house and he asked her Are you
allowed to convert out of a religion? And she said, of course,
and I said, Oh, thank God.
You know, they don't think I'm Muslim. So I didn't actually
identify as Muslim until probably ninth grade, when I actually saw
the movie Malcolm X.
As of November 18 1992, I remember the exact day and for some strange
reason my father wanted to see this movie. And you know, growing
up again, there was no religion. Now my parents are, you know,
they're practicing their Shah, and they went to hydrate whatnot. My
father is a very accomplished poet. And so, but back then there
was nothing, right. So he said, Let's go watch this movie, Malcolm
X, Spike Lee movie, Denzel Washington. So it was on a
Wednesday, I remember I went there. And, you know, I was, you
know, I'm still kind of Young. I'm just about to turn 15. I think,
god I just about to turn 15. And
for the most part, I was bored and you know, but then the the Hodge
scenes really had an effect on me. And then just hearing the Avant
there's a scene or just the Athan playing, and then he recites the
Fatiha. I think it was actually Denso. Who decided that's right.
And I think he's had it on in the Blue Mosque or something. Yeah,
that's right. Or yeah, I think it was the Blue Mosque. I just had
this weird sort of experience sitting there. It was the kind of
a combination of sort of, like Shane, like, you know, why don't I
know this. And, you know, I'm, I'm Persian or Iranian to be preferred
Persian, and it's less I was, you know, a monster brawny, he has
that bit where it's less violent. I'm a Persian cat, you know, now,
rather than E Rouhani. And because it sounds like Iraq, and anyway.
So, so I was just full of shame, there was a little bit of pride,
there was a little bit, you know, it was a weird emotion. So then I
went to the central library, and I checked out because I sat through
the entire credits, and there were long credits, and all these
celebrities with like, x had someone like Michael Jordan, Janet
Jackson. And at the very end of the credits, they actually show a
picture of the autobiography of Malcolm X, as told to Alex Haley.
So I looked at that, and I went to the cinema library, and I checked
out the book. And of course, you know, I started to read it, I got
bored. So I went right to the hudge chapter.
So I read that and the I read his letter from Mecca, and just had a
profound effect on me. So at that point, I remember, I decided to
call myself Muslim. Wow, that's, you know, so it's yeah, it's
amazing. You know, we because we've had so many guests on the
show similar stories, but yeah, but I mean, more so with the
autobiography itself than the movie. Yeah. I mean, you know, we
can just name off a list of people like Dr. Omar comes to mind is on
Bagby comes to mind and others who that autobiography, generation is
this way of saying it because whether the book or the film or
the film, right, I mean, I, I often wonder how many how many
people whose journey to Islam to Spike Lee get to get like a job
for you know, inadvertently it couldn't, you know, that's right.
It's quite amazing. Yeah. And it all goes back to Malcolm, I mean,
regardless, right, whether it's the autobiography or the movie, ya
know, I was curious something, something you talked about, like?
Would you say that your experiences of your family
migrating here represented or are representative of a lot of the
people who fled in 79 from Iran and came to America? I feel like
that story is representative in terms of people who were perhaps
more secularly minded. Were the ones who fled the revolution.
Yeah, I think so there was a state back. I mean, I don't want to
generalize, but if you look at the Iranian community in America,
they're generally very secular. Some of them are very anti
religious.
I mean, I have certain experiences with with, you know, aunties and
uncles that are in my memory forever. And, I mean, I asked to
an older relative one time, for some reason there was a picture of
the Kaaba somewhere. I don't remember exactly. I was maybe five
or six years old. And so I said, What is this thing? It was just it
was so intriguing to me, the Kaaba. And then the response from
this relative was, oh, they believe that God lives in this
box. That was the response I was given to me by an older relative.
And, you know, that stayed with me to this day, and just like what
they believe just sort of hit my fits that I guess, that there's,
you know, God is in a box, and what does that even mean? And, you
know, what is this? This is a strange religion and, you know,
things like that. So I wonder if that was just he being missing he
or she being misinformed or, you know, intentional? No, I think it
was, I think they had intentional animosity. They fled Iran during
the revolution to whatnot. But yeah, I mean, even finding a wife
in my early 20s It was it was difficult, because my parents
obviously wanted me to marry an Iranian woman and, you know, it
was difficult to get married Afghan, so my kids are mutts.
I call them a trio of months. You know, it's it's, uh, you know, but
yeah, that's I think that's my sister. Just officially my sister
grew up in the same house. I didn't she's a she's an atheist
and and
She is always forwarding me things from Richard Dawkins and
and you know and are like these really strange sort of clips that
she finds on the internet of some shape or an imam giving a speech
and he says something extremely misogynistic. And look, this is
your religion and so on and so forth. Right? And it's so strange
to me. It's just you know, it's no it's that's not my religion. And
that's that's his opinion and I totally disagree in this. Religion
is so fast. Right? And well now is studied as you are. I mean, it was
made for some remarkable conversations I imagined. Yeah,
the dinner table with
just YouTube. You she's the only so cheesy only. Okay.
I was gonna ask you.
So yeah, religion aside, though, in terms of culture. I know that.
Also, again, if I'm if I'm being generalizing, or
representative of what I've seen, from my anecdotal experiences with
with the Iranian community is that there is a lot of pride, however,
in the Persian civilization in Farsi as a cultural, so would you
say that was also true to your own? Yeah, yeah, definitely spoke
the language at home. Yeah, I can manage it. Okay. My mother only
speaks to me in Farsi. So, I mean, there's, one of the criticisms I
get from Farsi speakers is I need to do like hook by hook. But in
Farsi, and I don't think my Farsi is up to that level. But certainly
there was there was a an emphasis on learning Farsi, my mother tried
a few times, and I was kind of kind of a strange kid. And there
are a lot of energy. And so it was I have very short attention span.
So you know, she took me in a certain place, I don't remember
where they were, but you know, to learn my mother's bedtime and
whatnot, to be able to speak Farsi.
But I was more interested in sports at the time, and I just
don't really care. But you know, we did the whole the cultural
thing during the Iranian New Years, and we went to those
notices. Yeah, exactly. And we were so we tried to keep up with
the cultural aspects of the religion. And you know, my mother
and my father would always sort of emphasize the fact that we're
Iranian. And we do have a proud history and whatnot. And, but, and
I remember there was even a Quran in our house that was on the top
shelf of the master bedroom, and it was wrapped in a beautiful
cloth. And, and it was sort of was, I remember, I pull occasions
even or not even,
I think, once in a while, like, just just for blessings. I think
it was, I think it was more for but I remember one time I went up
there, and I pulled it down. And when my parents were not home, and
I opened it, and I would just I was just amazed, like, what
languages What is this thing?
And I had this sort of really strong interest to, to understand
all these what this book is saying, you know, but no, I find
it fascinating, just again, coming from also children as a child of
immigrants, that from the subcontinent, very similar in the
sense that not a very not, obviously a rather secular kind of
background.
That is no longer the case. However, you know, growing up that
way, but you know, we were talking about on we were taught, you know,
to, you know, the the subcontinent experience, even from sort of
secularized families was a little different. There was still that
kind of the need to at least, you know, teach the child, an Arabic
get a tutor, or was tasked to teach Arabic and basic Islamic
Studies, even if none of it was practiced at home. Yeah, yeah.
Whereas I feel from it again, anecdotally from Yeah, who did it
migrate from it on? There was a very conscious effort to to read.
Yeah, there was, yeah, there was a lot of anti Muslim sentiment in my
household. So my mother actually
suggested that I go to the Mormon Sunday school. So I didn't go
there for a while. And I remember actually fell in love with the
Bible. During those years. I remember reading things in the New
Testament that I thought were incredible. And I obviously had
theological questions, and they were never adequately answered.
Okay, so I'd never sort of gravitated towards the theology of
Christianity. And of course, Mormon theology is a bit
different. But I did get answers from, you know, more orthodox or
normative Trinitarian
practitioners. But there's something about the ethical
teaching of Christ as it's recorded in the four gospels that
really struck a chord with me. So I remember when I was when I
watched Malcolm X, and
I started to think about, you know, I need to know the Prophet
Muhammad salallahu Salam. And I remember thinking with my 15 year
old mind, you know, I don't love the profits of a body, so I don't
know anything about him, but I love it essentially. So um, so I
told myself I have to be patient and in sha Allah, I'll start to
love the Prophet salallahu Salam, like I love a side ASA.
So it was it was difficult for a while because, you know, had to
pray in secret. I didn't actually start practicing until I was 19. I
didn't know Fatiha until I was 19. I didn't know how to read
anything. I didn't know
I left about from bow until I was 19 years old. Me for all practical
purposes, almost identify as a convert to the favor. Yeah,
actually, I mean, I call myself sometimes a Born Again Muslim, but
I think my experience is more indicative of it in a convert. And
it is amazing. I mean, African American who was assassinated in
1965. Born in Omaha, Nebraska, had such an incredible effect on some
guy, some kid born in Iran. So 12 years after he was he was
assassinated. Hey, it's just incredible to me. Really? Yeah.
So, you know, there's that love of Malcolm X is always there. And of
course,
you know, I sometimes I go on YouTube now. And, and I just, you
know, I just watch him with such awe that he's in this room. And
it's sometimes he's the only black man in the room. And he has such
as sitting there. And it's incredible to be nobility. Yeah.
And I felt, I felt the same way. When, you know, when I started
practicing at 19, it was really my first encounter with Sheikh Hamza
use of actually the, you know, my mother took me and again, this is
very strange. My mother took me to an E prayer at MCA. Okay.
I'd love to talk about that. So, so, up until this point, you like
you said, you started praying? Yeah. Relatively in secret you're
learning and see. Yeah, I pray in my room. I do all five, all five
prayers at night. Because it'd be sweating. Sometimes I can hear my
father coming up the stairs. And, and so I got their prayer shorts
and flip it up in a magazine or something. It was just, yeah. So
when do you I guess, you know, come out.
Yeah. But you know, when do you kind of Yeah, talk to your family
about I mean, you went to eat sorry, maybe that story? Yes.
There. So yeah, so my mother took me to eat.
I remember we got there a little bit late. So I'm sitting in the
back. And it was absolutely packed. And this is MCA circa mid
90s. This is 1996. Probably. Okay. Well, yeah. So check it. It's
funny, because we've This is another ongoing thread, tapestry,
the tapestry, which is like where she comes up fits into the that
tapestry, right. And we for some reason, whether it's Osama we've
had or others 9095 96 a recurring guests across multiple episodes of
this tapestry. He having him as a guest. That's right. It's since
Osama, yeah. But he's eluded us as a guest.
But anyway, so 1985 96, which fascinated me originally enough,
in my own part of the universe, is also where I kind of intersect
with where my story intersects, which comes as, but sorry, yeah,
MCA 96, sitting in the back, and he's, he's speaking very loudly in
Arabic. And so I'm just sitting there going, you know, this is a
waste of time, and I don't understand what he's saying, and
why did I come here. And, you know, I just, you know, I'd rather
study by myself, and, you know, so on and so forth. And then he
switches to English at some point. And I remember just being
absolutely mesmerized, I cannot even explain to you the effect
that had on me. I remember walking out, you know, and just tripping
over people in front of me just staring at him. Like, who is this
man? That's right. So I remember had this incredible effect on me
for several months. And then one of my friends who was at the I
attended a junior college at the time, and I started going to the
MSA meetings, and one of them said, Well, you know, Sheikh Hamza
is teaching Maliki fifth class and Hayward. So I said, What's Maliki
and what's FIP? They said, don't worry about it just come in. So
I'm sitting there, and it was him. And I'm just watching him. And
he's writing stuff in Arabic on the board. I was like, Whoa, he's
writing. He knows Arabic. So his mind is blown, right? And I
didn't, I wasn't able to follow anything in the class. I mean, I
had no idea. You know, he was this white guy from Washington. No, no.
Nothing. I just knew he's a conflict editor. And then he
actually made a will do with like, I don't know, eight ounces of
water or something. I was there for that class. Watching. Wow,
this is incredible. And then this class, yeah. So I understand
nothing as far as the academic side of that class. But again,
just like this incredible effect you just had on me the way that he
would carry himself the way he would speak. And then and then he
did a sera, sera, the famous Syrah series in the fall of 98. And this
location in Hayward you speak of is the old day to an institute or
no, this is this is called the Islamic study school. I think it
was off mission and harder or something like that. It's not
Jack's. It wasn't Jackson. No, I don't think so. No, it was it was
kind of down the hill from Cal State. Hayward. If I remember
correctly later, I feel like yeah, it might have come later. That's
why you might know better when this this isn't. This is 9697 ida
nobody like when does When did he start using the facility on
Jackson? Do you know? Probably early early 2000s, probably early
2000s. That's fine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So then he starts teaching
the zero, right. And I remember that the one distinctly one
One distinct class is that he was talking about the conquest of
Mecca. And he mentioned the name of the Prophet salallahu Salam,
and then he started crying. Right. And I just remember thinking, Wow,
he really loves the Prophet sallallahu sunnah, you know? So, I
again, rent one I felt again, this type of embarrassment and I've
never cried. It's the life of the prophets. Right? Yeah. And he's
talking about when he when he enters Mecca renters Mecca three,
but a going young. Yeah, he was writing because I've heard that,
you know, to military. Yeah, here on the you can hear on the audio.
Yeah, in the CD. And I remember hearing it as a college student
when they came out. Yeah. So I must have memorized the moment
that had that impact on me as well. Yeah, I just remembered the
time thinking, I just I just want to hang around this guy. As much
as I can. Yeah. And it's interesting because
I walked out of we had a my office was in the Euclid building. And
in, that's a tuna now we moved to the upper campus. But a few months
ago, I had an office in the Euclid building. I remember walking out
of my office. And just looking right and seeing shake comes his
office right there surreal. And it just hit me like, you know, a lot
put me in his orbit, you know.
And of course, the mom is a doctor hatom. So I'm completely filled
with this type of gratitude, just for just for being around these
people. So you know, Malcolm X Sheikh Hamza,
when you take out even even broader view, that journey for you
started with Malcolm X. Yeah. to Alex Haley to Spike Lee. Look at
Yeah, I mean, and I've had Muslims come to me and say you should move
to the Middle East, because, you know, there's Anwar and I said,
Yeah, and they said, but there's nothing here. So this is where I
became Muslim. And this is this. I mean, this is a, this is a sacred
place, to me that this is where it all happened. I mean, I don't know
what I'd be doing. If I was in Iran right now. Probably someone
counting isn't Cuba. I don't know. I'd be doing fascinate. Yeah,
you're absolutely right. So there's I wouldn't be out buried
here. I mean, I mean, there. Wow. 30% of the African slaves that
were brought here were Muslim, many of them are only other how
far the Quran and this soil is sacred. Wow. That's powerful.
So, you, do you go to Yemen at this point? I mean, your studies
or Yeah, so I would study locally, throughout the 90s. Okay. And then
2007 At this point, what's the relationship like back home back
at home? Oh, so during this, so yeah, the coming out.
So basically,
I, when I went when I moved out for undergraduate studies, I
attended Cal Poly in San Luis Obispo, right? So I was 19 at the
time or so. So, you know, I drove the MSA there, and I obviously
have my own apartment. And so I would come back every so often.
And I just decided, You know what, I'm just going to start doing my
prayers. And I'm not going to care about what anyone says. And I'll
let them see me pray and whatnot. So it actually wasn't that bad. I
think I think they were more my parents were more concerned for me
when I was a younger teenager, because they thought maybe I was
falling into the wrong sort of crowd or I was being I was going
to become an extremist or something like that. I mean,
parents always have good intentions with their children.
Right. Right. So obviously, they've had they've had bad
experiences, I guess, in Iran, and they've heard certain things and
whatnot. But I think when they saw that I'm, you know, late teens,
early 20s. And I'm actually studying accounting now.
At Cal Poly. Okay, I guess it's okay for him to have a spiritual
aspect. I mean, my parent, my mother always wanted me to have
some sort of spiritual life, if you will. So that's why she
recommended that I go to these Christian Sunday schools, but the
unintended result of that was a sort of love affair with with the
Bible. And you know, that's, that's just and it obviously
continues to this day, right. And I went, I went through my phase
when I was an undergrad, I was a was a very staunch sort of Islamic
polemicists. Deedat style, I would actually prey on Christians on
campus. I would search and destroy them, basically. It was very
strange. We had this dowel table booth and I was a pamphleteer at
the time, and, and, you know, and Cal Poly is sort of the California
Bible Belt. I mean, there's a lot of Campus Crusade is like 900
Students really? Yeah, I think very religious in the Central
Coast compared to the Bay Area. Oh, yeah. So I mean, I remember
one one night at a farmers market, we had this thing farmers market,
we have all these, you know, vendors and whatnot, and you have
Christian booth atheist. And so I approached the Christian table,
and I started debating them and,
and, you know, ridiculing them and whatnot, and I remember there was
an older guy there. I don't think he was a student or anything, but
he was just happened to be there. And he looked at me and he said,
he said, you don't really care about us.
And I said, What do you mean? He said, If you agree
He cared about us, you wouldn't have this attitude with us. And of
course, I said, you don't know what you're talking about. And you
know, you can't answer my questions. And, you know, where
does Jesus say, I'm God and the New Testament and, and, you know,
in, you know, quote things out of context and whatnot and very
polemical, very, you know, disrespectful type of style. And
then, so I left and went back to my dorm room, and I just sat there
looking out the window. And I remember just thinking he's right,
you know, I'm just this is for knifes. That's amazing. This is
all knifes. And so at that point, because I still love the Bible,
you know, I decided that I'm going to improve my Dawa tactics, and
actually show a type of reverence for the tradition and even more
reverence for the text. Right? So I actually made a decision, I'm
going to start learning biblical languages. I'm going to learn
Christian theology properly. And I'm going to engage in G dial that
is Ben Heckman will not read that till Hassan.
Yeah, exactly. I remember at the time, I mean, there were Muslims
around me that I know they disagreed with my tactics. And I
think out of sort of adapt or something, maybe they were afraid
of me or something. They just, they just sort of didn't say
anything to me. And I wish they had at the time, because that
phase went on for a while, and actually wrote a book called in
defense of Islam and 2003. And it's sort of a manual. I compare
it to like the that's combat kit, if you remember that. Well, yeah.
And so I wrote this thing, and somebody put it online, you know,
so it's still online. Now people can find it. i We should mention
this, but I remember I give it to the moms a check it back in 2003.
Wow. And he read it. And he said, Yeah, it's good. But you should
wait till you're 40 Until you publish it. That was his advice.
And I remember that, what 40 I'm 25 or 26, whatever. What do you
mean, 40 have to wait that long. So I said, fine.
But then somebody did put it on the internet, but I looked at it
when I turned 40 I'm 40 now a few months ago, and I'll tell you
this, I mean, maybe maybe half of it I don't agree with and the
other half. I don't agree with the way I wrote it.
And it's just that's That's wisdom. I mean, he told me
straight up, you know, youth is wasted on the young.
Exactly. Yeah. And you know, it's interesting because I applied at a
job at St. Mary's College a few years ago to teach the intro to
Islam. And this is in Moraga and the Director of Religious Studies
or the head of the department.
And I had letters of recommendation from like, you
know, you I'm saying and Dr. Hatem sister, Maryanne Farina was a DSP
t. And then he called me and he said, You know, I have a problem.
I said, What's that? And he said, I just can't reconcile something.
I'm getting these great letters of rec from you. But then I went
online, and I found this book you wrote,
holy moly, yeah. And I said, Yeah, you know, I was an idiot. And this
was before my formal studies. And like, it wasn't 40. Yeah. And then
he quoted some of it to me, I remember my face just turning red.
And I did the facepalm thing.
And he said, Look, he said, You can believe whatever you want,
but, you know, but do you still agree with the sentiments of this
of this book? And I said, No, I don't at all. And you know, the
letters of rec are accurate. I was young and immature. And that's the
thing is if you put something you write something, it's there. Now,
nowadays, if it's on the internet, it's there for lots of very long
tail. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
So in order, then, you started delving more into like, sort of
Biblical Studies. Hebrew, Greek. And where does Yemen do a little
detour in? Yeah. So I was was that by the recommendation of people
like Sheikh Hamza and others? Well, I think it's because you
seem to have
Chef Yahya Rhodus, actually. And apparently, I, I've been I have
faint memories of him in the late 90s, and whatnot, and have
it converted in 1996. Yes. Right. And so he went to Yemen, and he
came back for a visit, I think it was in 2005 or so. And his, his,
his demeanor, his character, his knowledge, this has impressed me.
So he advised me to study in Yemen. And he has a house there
and to be with the hubbub. So I mean, nothing's nothing's real,
unless your wife is on board, right, as they say. So hamdulillah
let's find out what the Allah gave me. You know, my wife that is
incredible. And something I someone I definitely don't
deserve. But we all decided to go I have three daughters now, but
the older two were very young at the time, I think they were
foreign to at the time. So anyone studied there, and this was you
know, at the time.
This was 2007. Okay, so I'm nearly 30
Yeah, I had done a bunch of independent type studies and
studies with local Bay Area scholars at the time. I had
engaged in several interfaith dialogues and, and I started the
process of learning biblical languages and whatnot. But before
I went to Yemen, I applied for a Master's, for the master's program
at the graduate theological union. And I didn't think I'd get in
because my high school grades were atrocious. And you know, I sort of
wing the GRE. But I had a lot of great letters of rec. Yeah, you
know. And so, when I was in Yemen, my mother phoned me and she said,
you got into this, this institution. Oh, by the way, that
letters waiting for you. Yeah. So when I came back from Yemen, I did
a master's in, in New Testament, and I focused on biblical
languages. And then I did a PhD after that, and basically in
comparative theology, and did a, a Sufi, I guess you can call it
hermeneutic, of the Gospel of John. So I translated part of the
Gospel of John. And I played with this idea that, you know, so with
the Bible, there are two your two theories as to what happened.
Because we have this doctrine known as to how do you have
corruption? Or is it is a tattoo of the pneus? Is the text of the
Bible corrupted? Or is it of the exegesis of the money, and the
dominant opinion is that it's really both, but Imam Al Ghazali,
sort of plays with this idea that what the Christians called the NG
was actually the NG, and the hadith is in the post, I guess you
can call it the post apostolic exegesis or the proto Trinitarian
exegesis of the text. So but the text is sound. So for example,
when when a Saturday Saddam, he says, in John chapter 10, verse
30, the father and I are one, you know, Trinitarian is obviously
take that to denote an ontological type of oneness, because according
to Trinitarian theology, the Son and the Father are Hamo CE OS,
which is the Greek term that their CO substantial co equal in their
essence. But because it in order to Jamil and some say, this is a
pseudo anonymous work, that he didn't actually write it, but it's
written in his style, Allahu Alem. It makes an interesting point
saying, Look, if you look at the context of that statement of any
Sunday cinema, it's very clear that it's a unity of purpose, that
he's intimating his, his mystical union with with the Father, as it
were, and he says, Whenever you read, father in the New Testament,
means Rob, because that's that's who you're you're up is your Rob,
because he's the one that brings you up in stages, not a biological
or Yeah, it's a figurative figure jazz. Yeah, come out up. And it's
like saying, we're on the same page. Yeah, exactly. It's, it's
It's mystical union union of will born out of love. It's not an
ontological oneness. And then so as I did further research, I
realized that there were early Christians who did actually
interpreted the text like that, you know, because, you know, there
were Unitarian Christians from the very beginning. So I've
entertained this idea that this is the gospel, and if it is, well,
how would you deal with it? You know, so that's one verse. Another
one, you know, in the beginning was the Word the Word was with
God, and the Word was God. So some of these things, you have to look
at the original Greek and sort of take a type of exegesis from the
language itself. So study Philology, and things like that.
But there's a way that you can, in my opinion, you can reconcile
every single thing and all four gospels with our theology. Yeah,
even the crucifixion narratives which is very controversial. But
some of the aroma play with this idea that, you know, in the
Mottola, Fico, Rafi Roca, Yulia that Allah subhanho wa Taala is
saying to the silent cinema, that I will seize your soul and raise
you up to myself, right? So you know, this idea of, you know, warm
alpha to aloo masala Buddha, you know, they they did not kill him
to crucify him. Will you allow him that Eastside Islam did not die
from was made to experience from injury sustained at the hands of
Benny so I am but but Allah Subhan Allah to Allah sees his soul and
might have returned it to him. I mean, there are things written
like this, you know, Imam was a machete sort of plays with this
idea of what what could it mean? Well, that can should be a loved
one. Does it mean that somebody was turning to the likeness of
Christ? Or does it mean that the entire crucifixion was sort of
made dubious, to the Bani Israel? So they you know, problematize the
to MAMARAZZI mentions a few things as well, because it was the
machete obviously, he was a mortality scholar, but his his
linguistic analysis is is incredible.
So, you know, that's, that's basically what my my doctoral work
was on is, and of course, you have the the other opinion is that the
text itself has changed, and that's the dominant opinion.
Right, you know, so the dominant opinion according to Muslim
scholars, Muslim scholars, yeah.
And then where does within that, in your opinion that
the prophetic statement or tradition of you know, we neither
confirm nor deny? Yeah, it's
cific net does that refer to specific verses? Well there
are three Hadith that do with the Israelite traditions are destroyed
yet correct. So there's there's a hadith, Hadith and bunnies soya
which you know, relate from the bunnies. So like, there's nothing
wrong with that there's another Hadith and that's from Behati the
other one from ash Ahmed, I believe must not ash might have
said to him while reading a Torah, right this is the one that was
very much quoted to me my entire life by Muslims and you're not
allowed to read the Bible because they are martyrs reading the Torah
and the prophets of Allah He said them he disapproved of that. So,
you know, I asked him my teachers and I said, Well, it's not for our
model to read the Torah. It's not his job to do that. You know, it's
not, you know, it's the he's, he's to so be supposed to do something
else, you know, but there are other Sahaba is a different
fabric. I mean, he learned Hebrew, reportedly, in a few weeks in
order to improve the Dawa, and whatnot. And then you know, that
that to set Dooku? How Allah tickety boo Ha, yeah, if at the
time the context of the hadith is that some of the Jews in Medina,
they were they were apparently driver listeners, the Hadith that
I just read, you just read French related Bible who read it? Yeah.
So he said that the Hadith says that some of the Jews in Medina,
were translating the Bible from Hebrew into Arabic. So you know,
don't confirm what they're saying, nor belie what they're saying. And
the way I take that is, look at the text, see if, you know, see if
the text matches what they're saying. So don't confirm or deny
what they're telling you about the Torah or the NG, not necessarily a
prohibition against reading those texts.
But for the most, I mean, it's I'm, I'm in the mainstream in the
sense that, I believe in supersessionism, I believe the app
can have the Torah and the Gospel haven't have been abrogated by the
acount the Quran. So I'm in that sort of Sunni correct in
Orthodoxy, if you will. But this idea that, that, you know, these
these texts have have been corrupted beyond recognition. I
mean, it's there's a hadith in Bukhari, that watercop, in NOFA,
used to write the Injeel in Hebrew. So what is he writing?
What is what is the what is the relator of this hadith referring
to some injeel archetype that is now lost, that he has access to? I
mean, he's obviously writing the New Testament, you know, so I
think, I think, you know, this, the scholarship in comparative
theology, especially with, with the books of added Kitab, Jews and
Christians that you need a lot of work on our side, we're very
anemic, and we are studies and you have non Muslim scholars that have
incredible scholarship when it comes to Quranic studies. That's
right. I mean, Western academia is filled with, with people like
that. And so you know, and then also, the idea of the Quran and
the Prophet peace be upon him calling himself you know, most
Sundale referring to him. So that again, goes back to the idea of
affirming certain aspects of a previous scripture, right. I mean,
am I reading that correctly? Or? Yeah, definitely. There's many
that correctly. Yeah. I mean, the Quran
in many in many places in the Quran, Allah subhanho wa Taala
will engage Intertek actually with the biblical text. And oftentimes
that's lost on on a reader who doesn't understand
that whole aspect of the Quran. So you have, for example, one of my
students, a former Protestant, Lutheran, who was reading the end
of alamat, Ada. And she said, that's the Last Supper, right? And
I said, what it is, it's what it's referring to, right? So I never
even I never even occurred to me so that just again, fifth, the
fifth chapter of the Quran known as sort of three
tables, right? When when the disciples come to Esau, they
suddenly ask him for a banquet or tables bread, and maybe there's
like a table with food on it correct. And then he makes dua to
Allah subhana within and it appears and they eat from it. So
something like that is I mean, if you if you study sort of cutting
edge Western, contemporary scholarship on the Koran right
now, it's people like Michel Cuypers, looking at the rhetoric,
the composition of the Quran, so this type of
what is it? Intra textual analysis of the Quran looking at its its
symmetry, but also intertextual engagement. How does the Quran
engage right with other texts? Because according to Cuypers, and
Raymond Ferran, and I mean, again, most of these people are not
Muslim, but it's incredible scholarship, we could certainly
benefit from it. Michelle Cuypers book is on a matador he says the
entire surah is one big chiasm is incredible the beginning so it's
basically the beginning of the sutra. Yeah, mirrors the very end
of it. There's there's a there's a there's a mirroring and then the
second part of the sutra mirrors the second
The last part of it until and there's a focus in the middle,
right? Yeah. And Ferran says the same thing about about Tara. And
you think about it, I mean, that must be an aspect of the jaws of
the Quran. I mean, Imam Razi writes a little bit about sort of
the relationship between the ayat and the SU Otto he calls it and
when I said that, right, but this scholarship is incredible when you
think about it, you know, these are I had being revealed to the
Prophet salallahu Salam, yeah, over the years, and he's not
writing it down. And for him to know how to do this, if he is the
author of the Quran, right? How does he know where to put certain
things so that this structure isn't compromised, right and
attack over 23 years with different sewer being revealed to
him? It's just incredible when you think about it, you know, so
that's their focus is on you know, the sort of internal structure of
the Quran as well as its engagement Intertek, actually,
with the biblical text. For example, the Quran calls it a
Silius and I'm the Kalima of Allah subhanho wa taala. Now, the only
other texts that I know of in the Christian tradition that refers to
Jesus as the word, at least a canonical text is the Gospel of
John, you know, so is it the same? I mean, there's going to be
debates right now, if if the logos right in John one, one is
the second person have a Triune God, and you know, ontologically,
the same as the Father, why is the Quran making the reference to
this? To this, I told that to this passage, the prologue of John's
gospel, perhaps it's to sort of correct the adulterated. Yeah,
yeah. But, you know, someone said, Well, that sounds kind of strange,
quoting or alluding to a passage that's been adulterated or
fabricated. Perhaps there's another way of interpreting that
passage. And, and of course there is. And again, if you look at the
linguistics and arcane homologous, in the beginning was the word chi.
homologous Ain. Pross. Tom, stay on, and the Word was with the god
there's a definite article in the Greek before God K. And then it
says chi Fayyaz aim how Lagace and a god was the word without the
definite article. And in Greek, you know, it's, it's, it sounds
kind of strange, but anyone who has sort of a,
an extraordinary ability, you can refer to that person as a fe OS or
a, a divine lowercase d person. So the the way that this is
translated and Trinitarian Bibles isn't the beginning was the Word
the Word was with God, capital G, and the Word was God, capital G,
but that's not actually what it says. It says, The beginning was a
Word and the Word was with God, capital G, and the divine or
sanctified entity was the word. You know. So there's a very clear
hermeneutics, a Unitarian hermeneutic of John one one that
predates Islam. It's always been in the Christian tradition. That's
right. So yeah, so I mean, I feel like we can there's so much to
talk about I'd like we just got to school on a Sunday. This is like
buffering, you know, the
past fascinating. We're, we're recording on a Sunday in a school.
So this is like Sunday school for Zeki and I in the literal sense,
because we're talking about the Old Testament and you get
something Well, no, no, but I if I could just sort of like, again,
for the sake of kind of maybe bringing an end to the
conversation around this. I
want to take you back to like sort of Christ like like, I guess, in
terms of what Muslims can negotiate or accept with regards
to normative understanding of Christ ology. Right about Christ.
And you, you mentioned this idea of Christ being the word. Yeah.
And even you earlier, you spoke of the crucifixion, because
oftentimes, when I have conversations with Muslims, about
the crucifixion, I mean, one of the things I kind of point out is,
look, I mean, the the events or the details of the crucifixion, in
terms of the what's our when Yeah, that's immaterial. What's of
consequence, as far as Christianity is concerned, is is
what that what the crucifixion meant, right? Christ dying for the
sins of humanity, and then the subsequent resurrection. So if you
could, from a normative Muslim standpoint, you know, what does
the normative Muslim position allow to be negotiated with
regards to Christ? It's interesting, there's like, there's
more specifically the the crucifixion and resurrection,
right? Because as far as Christ, the living Master, there's hardly
any disagreements between biblical between Christian Yeah, Muslim
understanding. It's where you talk about the resurrected Lord, or the
notion of Christ the risen Lord. Yeah, where we obviously have a
point yeah, there's nothing. There's there's nothing in my
understanding of, of our Arpita that necessitates the belief that
Christ was not literally crucified. I mean, prophets were
cut in half
It was mentioned in his written reports. So I think oftentimes
Muslims will, they'll
gravitate towards certain positions, because they're in
contradistinction to the Christian position, because many imagine
this sort of cosmic battle that we're in with the Christians. And
I think oftentimes, you'll find Sunni or Lama who will not, quote,
Hadith related by his bait because of this, again, this sort of
prejudice they have against the Shia, even though we have Hadith
in our tradition, related by Asad Batum. It's, you know, it's
obligatory for us to love at a debate and, and of course, you
have that on the other side as well. It's interesting is a book
by Todd Lawson is very interesting. It's on the
crucifixion in the Quran. And Lawson's claim is that the first
exigent in Islamic history, or the first exegete in history of famous
exigent in history, who interpreted for 157 of the Quran
to be endorsing this type of literal Docetism which means that
someone else was literally substituted for a survey. Saddam
was a Christian exegete named John of Damacy. He was the first one to
posit that interpretation of the Quranic idea, and he was a
polemicists. I mean, exactly. Against Islam. He was, yeah, one
of the earliest polemicist, yeah. What about the Prophet I think as
well, yeah, he actually he didn't John can ask. Yeah, he actually
believe that. We were a deviant sect of Christianity. He called
this the sect of the hacker reasons, right, wherever we get
hackers from later on. Yeah, exactly. Patricia Chrome. Yeah,
exactly. So according to Lawson, later scholars, somehow adopted
this idea that it was literal Docetism that someone else was
transformed to look like Christ. And of course, there are no
prophetic statements that are authentic, that have any details,
as we mentioned, about what actually happened, because that's
not really important. So it's certainly within the realm of
conceivability that he might have been crucified, but God took his
soul from him. I mean, if you look up to Lofa in the southern auto, I
look up to two C's one soul in the matawa fika Now you remember this
Ali? He's interesting because he quotes I'll halachic the great
Sufi master who was the divine martyr of love as it were right?
When he was being crucified, he said, Well Mark, I'll tell you who
will masala booboo well I can shoot be Allahu but what does that
mean? That was he somehow it he claim or something that his
followers claimed that his body was, was substituted with? No. So
the significance of that is you can kill my body, but you can't
kill my whole lewd or like my everlasting. So Benny Soileau the
Pharisees at the time thinking, well, we're done with this guy for
good, right? I mean, you haven't seen anything yet you can kill you
can't really kill the Messiah. Right? And then as a proof that
indeed this was the Messiah. It's certainly conceivable that Allah
so kind of went to Allah returned his ruler, he's a little Hala
returned his route about to East LA Sana, and he was seen by people
walking around, it doesn't mean he's God, it doesn't mean he's the
son of God. I mean, Lazarus was resurrected as I mean, He's God.
That's right. Right. And then Jesus, on a tsunami, according to
three gospels in a synoptic tradition, he's he basically says
that, you know, what, what's going, what happened to Jonah is
going to happen to me, Jonah is the type and he's the ante type.
And this is a type of type of logic. This is a missionary
ministry with three days and three nights and
also the son of man, but I think he's focusing on the wrong issue.
Right? You know, it's this idea that, that,
you know, that he's, he's his mission or His Messiahship, in
this case, has been
validated by ALLAH SubhanA wa, tada, thinking that they had
killed him for good. And then And then God resurrects him. I mean,
it certainly doesn't mean that he's, he's God himself, because
Jonah is not God. Lazarus is not God. There were people. Matthew
mentions that when Jesus was resurrected, some Jewish saints
were also resurrected, walking around the cities of Jerusalem.
That's what God can do. Right. Right. Who are these Jewish what
happened to them? We have no idea.
So it is an interesting topic. We could I mean, we're the right
person to talk to but we could go for hours and hours. I think maybe
to try to wrap up. I mean, they did. There's a lot to talk about.
With you. And I knew we're gonna get into a lot of topics. One of
the things I know you've been speaking about of late
is some of the challenges that confront a lot of our youth that
end up you know, that encounter,
particular
I guess, worldviews once they get to college, you know, and I, you
know, I think that's a very important conversation to have
and, and maybe in the time that we do have with you to kind of maybe
shift focus and to kind of talk about what you feel are some of
the challenges and I mean, is that key being you know, you
You encountered young people, you know, in your own, obviously your
day job as a professor as well. So, I mean, I'd love for you the
exchange that you too can have, in terms of some of the challenges
that you feel confront Muslims as they enter the college, enter
universities. Yeah. I mean, it's a, there's a, because people are,
I mean, they're losing their faith. I mean, this
exaggeration, spectrum, you know, Abrahamic morality is under attack
in the academy. That's what it is. So, you know, I always tell people
that, you know, the D that days are over, we need to actually come
together with with Christians and Jews, because, you know, you know,
the other side doesn't, they don't
discriminate. Who I mean, it's Abrahamic morality, you know, so
this idea that there's there's no objective truth, right? Abraham,
you know, we call him the patriarch, and you have very
liberal students are a quote unquote, progressive students who
are constantly attacking what they refer to as the patriarchy, that
before Abrahamic tradition, the world was just this, you know,
utopia, and it's these evil, Semitic religions, with with these
with these men that came in and subjugated women, and you know, so
on and so forth. And we need to get back to that time again, so we
can realize this utopia on Earth. So there's no objective truth.
It's everything is powerplays, right, this type of post modernist
philosophy. And the only way to read a text is through the lens of
deconstructionism. There's, there's no normative
interpretation of the text. So many, many Muslim students in
these classrooms and which is at the bedrock of post modernism.
Exactly. You just say that. Yeah, exactly. They feel a
constructionism. Exactly. They feel embarrassed to even speak in
class. They feel embarrassed that they actually believe and right
and wrong, theologically and morally. Right. They I think
what's emanating I don't mean to cut you off and or even make light
of what you're talking about, but I think it would make for an
interesting conversation is, I have heard you sort of reference
Star Wars? Oh, yeah. as kind of being the ultimate sort of
postmodern, or the more recent iterations of wars. And I was
lucky. That some interesting things to say about that. So I
mean, maybe if you could tie it in for and I think it'd be fun for
our listeners as well. Just Just to piggyback off of what you're
saying. I mean, I've seen discourse as it pertains to what
we're seeing right now. With Star Wars and drawing parallels with
like, the the Reformation. And, you know, the, the idea that
George Lucas was sort of like the Catholic Church, he was the
authority. And then you have this reformation. And now you have
people who are deciding dogma and people, the masses are saying,
well, who gave you the right to decide this? You know, here's your
40 flaws. I'm gonna nail this to the
I mean, it's like you should know doctorates. I mean, we're huge
Star Wars geeks here. So yeah, so So for us this conversation and if
you have it within the sort of lens would be even more
fascinating, especially because we're seeing, you know, you and I
are discussing this in very light hearted frame. People are not
treating it very lightheartedly. I mean, this is like, a fan base
crisis of dogma. Yeah, I mean, there's wailing and gnashing of
teeth and rending of garments because of, you know, because
Because perceived orthodoxies
is being challenged. Again, I'm saying this partially joke,
because what I see online is sort of fascinating, and it is
indicative of it. To me it's indicative of people searching for
something in the absence in in having rejected,
you know, a spiritual frame, they're seeking something, you
know, and, and to whatever extent people have found guidance in Star
Wars. I mean, it's, it's amazing. Yeah, um, yeah, I think it's on
full display this rejection of traditional value systems. You
know, this idea that, you know, the Luke Skywalker, he's an old
guy, he just needs to get out of the way just die already, you
know, the old people just get get out of the way. Let us young
people take over, right. And, you know, it's, you know, this idea
that, you know, you know, studying and putting in long hours of
training does not necessarily go with the past kill it if you have
to, right. Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah, exactly. Kylo Ren says,
That's the bad guy who's saying, I know, I know, I know.
You too, can argue it out. But ya know, but I'm sorry. Yeah, no, but
what you're saying is, certainly, yeah, in my experience as an
instructor, I definitely see that, that there is this rejection?
Certainly, not overtly, necessarily. But the idea that
these are antiquated ways of thinking, past that. No, and these
issues of like you said, deconstruct deconstructionism, pay
rejection of patriarchy, a rejection of tradition, or
traditional values Abrahamic, moral morality and
I mean, we see this play out, in, I mean, all the time, whether it
was the Kavanaugh hearings of late or or elsewhere. So I think the
issue is you're highlighting here, you know, I think are really
critical. And so you would identify these as being some of
the sort of most critical issues that confront these young,
definitely in the academies or in academia, is the greatest
challenge. And this is why there's massive but like you mentioned,
there's so much I've also heard about, like, sort of what people
have coined or turn scientism, the idea of where that science sort of
scientism, yeah, being different from obviously an embrace of
science. Well, yeah, certainly. But also different from
recognizing the importance of science. But where I mean, is,
you've heard this term. Yeah, definitely. Sort of the end. Maybe
you can do a better job of articulating reading sides.
Yeah, yeah. So I mean, new Atheism. You know, there's the
four horsemen who Hitchens who passed and then you have Richard
Dawkins and Dan Dennett, Sam Harris door. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
So I mean, it's a false dichotomy, like science and religion, are you
going to believe science? Are you going to accept science? Which is
based on fact? Or are you going to believe in these religions that,
you know, that are antiquated and immoral? And, you know, so on and
so forth? So, you know, students are confronted with this
dichotomy, and they have no idea what to do with it.
And, you know, I there's a, there's a book, I recommend John
hot. I think he's a Jesuit. And he wrote a book called God and Newton
in the new Atheism, which is really interesting, because he
deals with with those four New Atheists, as you know, Neo
atheists, whatever they're called, figures, and basically says that,
that that is also a religion. That's the religion of scientism,
you know, it's, they're accepting certain things or certain
assumptions that and they don't question them, and you don't have
people going. You don't have students going through the
theorems and equations and trying to prove them. What if those
equations are wrong? And they just simply accept that there's always
a level just a dip of trust and tuck lead? Of course, yeah, yeah.
And then this idea of explanatory moment mon ism. But just because
we know how something works doesn't negate God. We know like,
they say, you know, Isaac Newton didn't know why the planets go
around the sun in the same direction. So he filled in the gap
of his ignorance with God, that God of the Gaps argument, but now
we know why the planets go around the sun. And that doesn't negate
god, that's a non sequitur arguments, a terrible argument,
just because I know how my cell phone works doesn't mean it didn't
have an engineer and a creator, and so on and so forth. So
explanatory monism is just one way of explaining something, right?
are looking at a, I think, who is it? William Chittick. uses this
example, that there's a beautiful painting. And, you know, if you
put a, you know, until ask a, a scientist about this painting, and
they'll do a bunch of tests on the, on the canvas on the paint is
on and so forth, give you all these all this incredible
information, and then put a child in front of the painting, and the
child will wonder what I wonder what this this portrait means,
like the Mona Lisa, what is she thinking? What does it mean?
What's the significance of it? Right, you know, so just because
you know how something works or what it is, the deeper question is
why why the universe? You know, that's that's the realm of
theology. That's right. Right. The old chestnut about was that
absence of evidence doesn't equal evidence of absence. Yeah. Yeah.
So I mean, it's it. That's, that's also a big challenge right now is
so how do you I mean, just again, I mean, if you could give some
pointers in terms of parents who are concerned with this,
obviously, like, how do you inoculate our children from from
some of this? Yeah, I mean, it's, I mean, they're not getting at
their Saturday school or Sunday schools. I mean, this isn't the
kind of Islam or I should say, what they need in terms of an
inoculation. That type of a religious study isn't being being
promulgated at, you know, full time Islamic schools or even the
members. Yeah, you know, I mean, the answer is a strong foundation.
And for them, like also love, I mean, love is powerful. And if you
if you can be the means by which your children love Allah and His
messenger that love inshallah will last forever, even if they're
challenged intellectually, you know, so it's very important to
have that strong foundation.
But you like you said, it's very difficult because, you know,
students, they they do research on the internet. And you know,
sometimes they hear things that are many times they hear things
that are extremely anti Muslim, and they're not going to bring
those things up with their parents or with with the local Imam at the
masjid and whatnot. But I think students should be encouraged to
bring up whatever they want. You know, there was a young man who
said to me, he was in eighth grade or something. And he said, Yeah,
he said, I haven't
All these doubts about my religion and I can't possibly tell my
father because he's going to be so angry, you might even beat me. And
so I said, just just ask me and email me and I'm not gonna, I'm
not gonna get angry. And I encourage you to do that. But But
parents have to give have to have to sort of give this environment
or this vibe to their children, that it's okay to ask whatever you
want, right? I mean, there's students now there are young
Muslims now they're just simply going through motions in the
masajid. One of them confided to me and you know, I pray a job, I
don't really believe anything, I opened the most half, I just stare
blankly into its pages, and, you know, this type of thing. And a
lot of it has to do with, you know, their parents coming here.
Because back home, as it were, you know, there's no Internet back
then all of the questions were about orthopraxy. This other
words, you know, if I'm traveling, and I have to make blue, and
everyone was sort of the same month have on the same Minaj, but
here, it's such a melting pot and your internet, and they have, you
know, they go to school, and there's atheists and as
Christians, and there's, you know, different types of people there.
And it's, you know, parents are not, they're not equipped
intellectually, and they just, you know, they, they don't know how to
deal with it. That's right. No, because I mean, I think back to,
if I think back to when I was at that age, right, either in high
school or starting college, you're so right, in pointing out that,
you know, even in our most vulnerable moments, we were our
questions were around orthopraxy Yeah, you know, the oft repeated,
you know, question at conferences about, you know, eating gelatine
meats and just jealous him
listening to music and dealing with the opposite gender. Yeah,
this is orthopraxy. And now we're dealing with sort of real,
existential, spiritual crisis.
Yes. So like, as a tuna, for example, I mean, you know, in some
of the work that in the courses that you teach, you know, do you
encounter those type of conversations with some of the
students that Yeah, I think it's come to say to now, it's important
for us to, to equip them with how to deal with the world, you know,
and, you know, she comes always talks about, you know, becoming
intellectual warriors.
And that's where it has to be this, you know, it's a it's a
battleground of ideas, you know, but we have certain things we have
certain parameters in our quote unquote, rules of engagement. You
know, we we have to, you know, we have to not preach a dub with
people and at the end of the day, it's beautiful Look whom Dena Kuma
Leah Dean. I mean, there was a an anti Muslim polemicist, one time,
who said that the, he said the most, the most tolerant verse he's
ever read in any scripture is any sort of call that Kathy ruin, the,
you know, infidels, which is a Latin word, but Lacuna Coil,
Malia, Dean, you have your way and I have my way, it's, there's,
there's a lot of profundity in that statement, you know, that we
can have a dialogue, and this is what this is what college was
intended for, really is to, is to sit down and, you know, engage in
a Socratic type of discourse, where you're teasing out the
truth. And if you agree to disagree, then that's fine. But
nowadays, it's becoming an echo chamber, students are just
hearing, you know, what they want to hear their feelings are totally
coddled, you know, it's, it's the, it's the environment of, you know,
microaggressions and safe spaces, if you hear something that is
offensive to you, then, you know, then, you know, it's, it's
something that is problematic, and, and must be stopped. And, you
know, I just, I just think it's, it's the wrong way of doing
college. I mean,
this should be a place where there, it's literally an
intellectual battleground, where you can actually hear things and
develop refutations and you can, you know, hash things out in a
civilized way. And at the end of the day, if you don't agree that
Codina Camillia, didn't you have your religion you have your
beliefs or lack thereof, and so do I? Right. So
I think that there's a, there's a great lesson to that to that I in
the Quran. And I think students should know that just because
you're at these institutions, it doesn't mean that you should feel
compelled to adopt
their way of thinking, because, you know, their way of thinking
is, I mean, it's a, it's a contradiction anyway. I mean,
there's no, there's no absolute truth, except the fact that
there's no absolute truth. Right? Just it doesn't make any sense.
And they're not bothered by contradictions. Because they're
not they're not worried about logic.
But, yeah, I mean, students that say tuna.
I'm really looking forward to see what they're going to be doing in
a few years. I mean, the college is still relatively young, and we
started 2009. So I mean, some of these students, I think, have an
incredible potential to make massive impact
on the world, and a very, very positive way, as as as champions
of Abrahamic faiths.
ology and morality, which is so missing and so under attack right
now as literally being,
you know, depicted as the enemy of humanity, you know, now unlike
maybe like academia at large, I mean, there's probably not the,
you know, publish or perish sort of, you know,
pressure on you, but I do hope that, you know, there is some
writing in store for you and or you're working on some things
that, you know, address some of these issues. Yeah, in a more
academic, nuanced fashion inshallah. Yeah, that's my, you
know, like I said, I turned 40. So, this, this is the decade I
think we're, I'm gonna start writing more, maybe publish a few,
you know, don't make the same mistakes of the past.
Inshallah? Yeah, I think I think I think we have to have a very
strong
intellectual sort of
what's the word to use? Foundation of literature, I guess what I say
to address all of these issues with writing from a confessional
traditional perspective.
I think that's a good place to wrap up this evaluation, we've
covered a lot of ground. Where can people seek you out, find out
information or about you maybe engage you do want to learn more
online sources that people can tap into? Not?
I mean, I have a lot of things on YouTube that people have posted.
Yes, I would just recommend watching I did a talk on post
modernism a few weeks ago.
At MCC and Dublin, right. So if you search on YouTube, I checked
out the videos it was it was wonderful. If you check out MCC
East Bay, do a search for that. And then Dr. Alia, ties name ATA,
I Yeah, yeah. And so and we'll try to maybe link to some of those
videos, but that one in particular thing was over an hour. It was
wonderful. So I think after you listen to this,
there you go. Yeah, but I'm not on social media. So I kind of fly
under the radar. And I have my reasons for that. But yeah, check
out that talk. I did a few lectures as a tuna for people that
are interested in comparative theology, comparative religion. I
did one on the Prophet salallahu. Salam in the biblical text. And
then another one on on is God Allah, which is also you'll find
that on YouTube if you search for it. And then can people if people
aren't communities are invited or interested in inviting you out or
anything me, do you? Oh, definitely. Yes. Yeah. Is there
somewhere where people can go for that? You have handlers or do you
kind of take care of yourself? Not just it's just me. Susan, maybe? I
mean, I mean, certainly people can email. Yeah, if you go to Jose
tonight.edu. You'll find my, my profile there. And there's a
there's a contact dress. Yeah, definitely. As people do that,
yeah. Wonderful. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Timing.
It's been wonderful. And you're right here, you're practically a
neighbor. So we want to, you know, although hopefully, we'll have you
back in. Shall we continue? That's right. That's right. And so before
we wrap up, I also want to just again, make a plug for our Patreon
page. I know people have been going there and becoming
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our target was, but people have been almost monthly still
continuing to join. And so if you're a listener, if you benefit
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you're comfortable doing, go to patreon.com/diffuse congruence and
become a patron of the show, we would really, really appreciate
it. And Zeki. Maybe you can close this out by telling us telling our
listeners where people can find us. You can email us at diffuse
[email protected] You can also hit like on our Facebook page
facebook.com/diffuse congruence also please go to iTunes and leave
a review leave star rating and let us know what you think. And every
review that you leave helps spread the word. So thank you so much for
listening. Thank you to our guest, Dr. Elliot died on behalf of my
partner Professor med. This is Jackie Hudson, thank you so much
for listening. We'll catch you next time.
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