Channel: Ahmed Deedat
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I call on Mulana Chari Hafiz Faisal of man of Pakistan presently paced a daughter Luna Chatsworth unit seven to recite the Quran to sokola
manual him. I seek refuge in a law from the rejected Satan. And I begin In the Name of Allah, the billet Beneficent, the Merciful,
respected Allah, respected elders, brothers and sisters.
It is a privilege for me to welcome you and to introduce to you our chairman for today. A promising
and successful young men. In fact, Islam requires us to be successful five times a day in the Amazon, the call to pray. Allah reminds us to come to pray, come to success.
And this successful young man is Mohammed Salim Khan. He is a lawyer, an academic and a lecturer at the University
of Durban, restful, his faculty, his law.
Brothers and sisters, I'd like you to meet our chairman, Brother Mohammed Salim Khan.
peace be upon you at the mercy of God. This translated into Arabic reads Assalam wa Alaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh.
Ladies and gentlemen, that this symposium is God ordained is indisputable, by all those who believe in God
This begs the question, why are we present here?
Why is it that of the millions of people in this world, you in particular have been destined to attend this symposium?
The definite answer to that question rests with Allah alone. However, this does not preclude us from questioning from inquiry
in order to establish the purpose of your attendance here this afternoon.
For it is only through serious inquiry, positive questioning, can one aspire to enlightenment and then appreciate the greatness of our Creator.
To my mind, please, ladies and gentlemen, and I submit this respectfully.
We are here this afternoon, to be educated and possibly to educate the path to education is one paved with humility. In order to aspire to any great heights, in education, in any facet or in any sphere,
one must be able to acquire certain characteristics. Firstly, one must be able to shed off the bondage of skepticism, one must be able to shed off the bonds of subjectivity.
One must be able to analyze issues objectively.
Ladies and gentlemen, that objectivity is important is tripes.
However, immaterial how compelling an argument is,
if a person does not want to accept, if he does not want to accept a conversion of his ideas, or beliefs,
he will not be converted. For Allah clearly indicates in the Holy Quran, that is for him to convert ideas, it is for him to convert ideals.
I'm not suggesting Ladies and gentlemen, that one should reject abandon one's innate beliefs. What I'm merely submitting is that one should not allow one's innate beliefs and one subjectivity
to prevent one from analyzing someone else's belief, from analyzing someone else's argument, even if ultimately it resulted in the rejection of this other person's argument.
Ladies and gentlemen, this is a gathering a symposium of goodwill. It is a coming together of different religions, Islam, Christianity, and possibly aspects relating to Judaism, that these religions are similar bags of new duck.
They are like peas in the same pod, yet they are characterized by certain differences. It is hoped that in symposiums of this nature, in conferences and in discussions, there will be a resolve effectuated to these differences.
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my pleasant task of being chairman of this afternoon. It is indeed our privilege to have with us this afternoon, our very own Mr. Othman deedat. an eminent scholar of religion. A person who is responsible for a number of publications, and author of publications, a person of international repute.
One who has especially in recent days, acquired great renown. It is also our privilege to have a visitor from Canada,
who will be introduced to yourselves in due course. He too, is a very prominent personality,
one whose reputation precedes him, and we shall have the benefit of his knowledge this afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, I present Mr. Ahmed deedat.
Assalamu alaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh. May the peace and blessings of God be upon you all.
B od le y bodily, the American
in his book, The messenger
he gives the relative strength
the mightiest religious forces on earth today.
Those of Islam and Christianity,
he doesn't give us figures does not tell us that the Muslims today number 1000 million, and the Christians 1000 200 million.
But what he says is
these Muslims and Christians were competing
for the allegiance of mankind
that they, he says that there are professing Christians in the world, then professing Muslims, meaning
that the number of people who take off on census forms as Christians, they will be more of that than those who take themselves off as Muslims,
that there are more professing Christians in the world than professing Muslims. But
he says, there are more practicing Muslims in the world, then practicing Christians. If I said this on my own account,
blowing my own trumpet would not have carried much weight. It makes me happy to quote an outsider, an American and a Christian, that
really the difference between Islam and Christianity?
I may share with you that Islam is the only non Christian faith which makes it an article of faith for its followers to believe in Jesus.
No Muslim is a Muslim, if he does not believe in Jesus.
What he is made to believe is that Jesus Christ was one of the mightiest messengers of God. He is made to believe that he was the Messiah is made to believe that he was born miraculously without any male intervention, which many modern day Christians do not believe today.
And he's made to believe the Muslim is made to believe that Jesus Christ he gave life to the dead by God's permission, and he healed those born blind and the lepers by God's permission, he gets all this from his book of authority,
the Holy Quran,
it is your privilege to get one,
the mmm bookstore in the corner, there, they are
selling them for five runs each 2000 pages and Encyclopedia 2000 pages for five brands each.
You will agree with me this very, very cheap. And if you can't afford it Muslim as well as non Muslim, you can write to the Islamic Propagation center and tell us that look, I'm earning 500 pounds a month, but I can't afford a Quran and you will get one by return post tell us why we should give you one for nothing. I'm not talking about the cultists the born again, missionary Look, he must pay for it as we have to pay for the Bibles from the Bible house. But I'm talking about the general public if you are interested in knowing the Quran, and if you can afford it right for one and get one free.
difference, what are the only the only points of real differences between the Muslim and the Christian is this are these. Number one. The Muslim says that Jesus is not God. Number two, the Muslim says that Jesus is not the Begotten Son of God because God does not beget. The Muslim says that God is not a true human God, because there is no such thing as three in one and one in three. The Muslim says that Jesus Christ was not killed nor crucified and hence he was not resurrected. There is no such thing as a resurrection. These are points of real differences between the Muslim and the Christian.
But believe me, Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, that this wide gulf between the Muslim and the Christian between Islam and Christianity is being rapidly bridged
that Christians are coming towards Islam.
I'm not talking about the cultists. I'm talking about the learned men of Christianity who are described in the Holy Quran in these beautiful words.
I'm quoting from Jeremiah chapter five, verse 85.
It says Walla Walla tajuddin
Lila Xena Amano Allah, Xena, Allah in Nana Sora
to them, among them in faith in love.
And nearest among them in love to the believers to the Muslims will now find those who say we are Christians
than the Anamika Sina, because amongst them are men devoted to learning.
Among the Christians say the Holy Quran are men devoted to learning verbannen and men who have renounced the world.
And people who are not.
Abdullah Yusuf Ali, the commentator of this translation, which I was showing it to you.
In his note number 789. On this verse comments,
he says, The meaning is not that they call themselves Christians, but they are such sincere Christians that they appreciate Muslim virtues, as did the abyssinians. To whom Muslim refugees when during the persecution in metta, they would say it is true, we are Christians, but we understand your point of view. And we know you are good men,
Abdullah Yusuf Ali concludes that these Christians, they are Muslims at heart that these Christians, they are Muslims as hot, nevermind, whatever label they apply for themselves.
And I can give you many examples from history of this type of good learned men among the questions.
But time is short. So let me give you some brief references from recent times.
in the Time Magazine, July 15 1974, they were a series of essays under the heading who are history's great leaders.
And among the contributors, there is one James gabin.
Described as a retired
commander in chief, a commander in chief of the American army.
This James Gavin, in his list of the most, the greatest leaders,
he says, number one, Muhammad Sallallahu sallam.
And number two, he put his own Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Number two.
Then, in America again,
an American by the name of Michael at heart of the heart publishing company, described as an astronomer and mathematician.
This man he writes a book
of 572 pages, giving the most influential men in history from the time of Adam, up to current times.
And in his list of 100 most influential men, he puts the Holy Prophet of Islam Muhammad number one.
surprisingly, he puts his own Lord and Savior Jesus Christ number three.
Then, that is going a bit far, coming back to our own country.
The charming bill charmers, he will be on TV tonight on what is called cross questions, he will be on TV tonight. This bill charmers at the end of a lively debate on the subject of Islam and Christianity, the very subject of this afternoon's afternoon's discussion, it was on se bctv Islam and Christianity.
He commented at the end of the talk,
in these charming words, but I think it can be said from this discussion that there is at present, somewhat more accommodation on the Islamic side for the founder of Christianity than there is on the Christian side for the founder of Islam, what the significance of that is, we leave it to view the viewer to determine, but I do hope you will agree with us that it's a good thing that we are talking together.
I think it can be said from this discussion, referring to the discussion on TV, that there is at present, somewhat more accommodation on the Islamic side for the founder of Christianity. Then there is on the Christian side for the founder of Islam
that there is more tolerance. There is more
Compassion on the Islamic side for Jesus Christ. Then there is on the Christian side for the founder of Islam.
He said what the significance of that is, we leave it to you, the viewer to determine. But I do think you will agree with me that it is a good thing that we are talking together.
Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, you are all privileged to see that videotape of that meeting. Islam and Christianity that great debate that took place on TV, you are privileged to see that tape absolutely free of charge.
on VHS or Betamax, whatever you choose whatever format absolutely free of charge. If you want to see it, you can see it, you can get it on the propagation center. But you will have to put with us 25 grand security deposit. Because after giving this tape to you, we haven't got the manpower to start running behind you to find out where you are with this tape. So you leave with us 25 grand security after a week you return it and take your money back in full.
We don't hide it, we will lend it to you.
And on that, on this program, you will see something more than what Bill charmers tells you.
You see, you will find on this tape.
The reason why bill Sharma says you know that there is more sympathy from the Islamic side than there is on the Christian side port Islam, you will find a classical example of a sickness.
You see there is the current sickness prevailing among the Christians of the world. They call it a born again.
It's a cult that has been created recently, where they now say that previously with the disciples of Jesus, they had the spirit with them. But now they say we have it in us. The spirit is in them inside, fill them up.
And I had one of the sick person coming to my office wanting to share this sickness with me. I asked him now you have the Spirit in you. He said yes. I said it permeates every fiber of your being. He said yes. So I said you can be tempted.
He's the Spirit of God fills you up. Is the room for the devil to get in?
He says no. So I said you can be tempted, he says not
such a Congratulations.
Congratulations. I said you know your greed greater than your own God. You're greater than your Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, because Jesus Christ was tempted by the devil, and you can be tempted.
You can be tempted but Jesus was tempted,
says no, no, I can also be tempted. Then I said, in that case, you haven't got the Spirit says either way, if you have the spirit, then you are greater than Jesus. Because Jesus was tempted his disciples were tempted, you are greater than them all. And if you are, you can be tempted, then you haven't got the spirit. Rather, you have something rightly described by the Holy Prophet of Islam. He said, that shaitan
shaytaan, the spirit of evil forces through the body of men like the blood.
This is what shaytan is coursing through the body of men like the blood as the blood is flowing in your veins, this demolitionist this evil inclinations, temptations are also coursing through your body. So somebody asked him, he said, What about you?
And he was humble enough to admit, he said me too, but mine is under control.
talking about these limit Christians, I said there are these limit Christians, they are coming towards Islam
is the limit men, not sick people.
Our biggest points of differences between the Christian and ourselves. Things that greeted the Muslim most was this expression that Jesus is the only begotten Son, be gotten, not me.
This would be getting
was greeting the Muslims.
And it is trading according to the recitation read by a party.
He read those words very strong words. He says Wakarusa Hazara, mahna mahna da and they say that our Rockman the merciful God, he has gotten a son.
Allah subhanaw taala. God Almighty, He says in answer to that is to say an ADA is one of the most abominable so
One can make Takata samata fatahna men who added the skies are ready to burst what on earth and the earth to speak ascender with a Fuji bajada and the mountains to fall down in the rain.
Such a horrible swearing, that you see that God because because beginning is an animal act, it belongs to the lower animal functions of sex, how can you attribute such a quality to God.
So, the learned men of Christianity, that the two scholars have the highest eminence backed by 50 cooperating denominations of the Christians.
They went and produced the Revised Standard Version of the Bible.
And they proved this word be gotten out unceremoniously, this would be gotten in john 316. Every Christian word the name knows it.
The most translated sentence of any sentence in the world, john 316. Now, look for it in the Revised Standard Version of the Bible is thrown out as a fabrication as an interpolation. As here, it is about time that we shook hands with this Christian scholars, this is time, thank you very much. coming closer to Islam.
The word that was grading as they threw it out two episodes now, because they found that it was not there in the original manuscripts. This was somebody who had pushed it in.
It's not supposed to be there, thrown out. I have the Bible here after the meeting, if you'd like to check it out. Check it up, the word we got is not to be found.
Another point of real difference between the Muslim and the Christian is this core thing called Trinity, the Holy Trinity with the Christian says that the Father is God, the Son of God, and the Holy Ghost is God, but they're not very good, but one God, you remember the formula, every Christian has it on his lips. The father is almighty the son is almighty and the Holy Ghost is almighty, but they are not three or minus about one almighty.
He continues, the father is a person the son is a person and the Holy Ghost is a person, but they are not 3% but one person and asking the Englishman What language are you speaking you say person, person, person, but not three person but one person. What language is that? Of course, that is the language of religion.
Now, the only solid basis on which this dogma could be based is to be found in the King James version and the Roman Catholic version of the Bible. In the first episode of john, chapter five, verse seven. It reads, for there are three that they report in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one. That is the clearest approximation to the treaty in the Christian Bible. Now that also
has been unceremoniously thrown out of this book, by who,
not by Muslim scholars, not by Jewish scholars, not by Hindu scholars, but by 32 scholars, Christian scholars of the highest eminence, backed by 50 cooperating denominations, they threw it out as a fabrication is not there. So congratulations to my Christian learned men say they like to kiss your head.
They're coming closer and closer to Islam.
With regards to the crucifixion, with regards to the resurrection, we have given you a pamphlet when you came in Jesus as only a messenger. At the back of that pamphlet, you will find a shock survey of Anglican bishops
a shock survey of Anglican bishops
these are paid servants of the Anglican Church.
Men of the highest order of learning the most respected people in Christendom among the Orthodox
in our daily news
of the 25th of June this year,
dateline from London is said more than half of England's Anglican bishops say Christians are not obliged to believe that Jesus Christ was born.
You are not obliged to believe that Jesus Christ is God. And this was a point of real difference between the Muslim and the Christian. They threw it out. They said, you if you don't believe in that you're still an Anglican. They don't want to lose you to Islam. Because that is what the real point of differences is that Jesus is not God. The Christian said Jesus is God. But more than half of the bishop now are telling you
that you don't have to believe that Jesus is God That means he is not God.
It is not a foundation of your faith anymore.
So I said I take off my hat with these Anglican bishops, as we all ought to do, we take off our hat, what was the purpose? What was the motive? Which Adam
Schiff bribe these bishops Tell me who bribed them.
To do away with the main the bedrock of Christian that is the divinity of Christ is that look, you don't have to believe in that anymore.
And further in that same article, you read it at home,
that the fall of 31 of England's 39 bishops show that many of them think that Christ miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection might not have happened exactly as described in the Bible.
These are something more like fairy tales. These are like fairy tales, it might not have happened, this resurrection of Jesus might not have happened. And we have given your book
crucifixion of crucifixion, absolutely free. And you read it, and you can't agree that it's a fiction fit to you in fiction, not ephi exile fctm fiction.
So, these learned men of Christian them described in the Holy Quran as learned that they are coming towards Islam. So congratulations, we take off away.
And only 11 of the bishops insisted that Christians was regard price as both God and men while 19 out of 31 look at the percentage at home. They said that Jesus Christ is nothing other than God's supreme agent. That's what I say. That is what the Quran says. Dr. Hillel kita who people have the book olona people love Lucy Dini. He said, Do not go to extremes in your religion, while otaku Allah Allah.
And don't say anything about God accept the truth. In mlmrc, most certainly the Messiah, please have no Mariama Jesus and of Mary Rasulullah is the Messenger of Allah.
This is what the Muslim is saying is a messenger of Allah. Now, the Anglican bishops 11 out of 31 they say that he 19 out of 31 this is only a messenger.
Now, this is this, there is a message for the Muslim that it is about time that we shade Islam with our fellow countrymen. Look the learned man when he makes a discovery he makes it known by the masses they don't know what's going on. They're like sheep. They're still kept there. In the stable, we have to free them bring them over says Look, these are your learned men they are confessing without any coercion there is no Muslim with a sword over his head.
You remember the old saying that Islam was played at the point of the sword as a witch sword is forcing these people to tell you that whatever the Muslim says they are agreeing with us step by step step by step but they are dragging their feet It is about time that we rush them so look man, this is what is the Now the difference between as a new whatever you said the differences that existed The greater the Muslim you have taken them out. You say you don't believe in them so why not shake hands and become Muslims in the world of the Holy Quran in this brief drop by saying as we are made this a whole
lotta people have the book or learned people who people with a scripture
come Isla Kalamata in Sabah by Nana webinar, that we come to common terms as between us and you, let us get onto a common platform. And that common platform, this Almighty God, He gives it to us in this holy book. This is Allah Illallah that we worship men but Allah
Allahu sharika de Shea and and that we associate new partners with him.
Ababa mundo de la, and that we do not take from among ourselves loads and patrons other than Allah for our love. But if they turn back, Felicia to be a non Muslim, tell them that we at least are Muslims. We have submitted our will with the will of God. And we want you to join us in the fellowship of faith in the Brotherhood of faith. Laughter
Thank you, Mr. Mulder. Ladies and gentlemen, you will be availed of the opportunity of putting questions to the speaker later, ladies and gentlemen.
who is now fondly known as brother jalala deal, will address you we're off he will introduce the next
before I start saying what I have to say, if anybody wants refreshments that on my right at the back are available to you
Alhamdulillah that means all praises to to Allah. I am a revert,
may wonder what that is.
Every child is born a Muslim. According to our Holy Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi salam, every child born, is born a Muslim.
And so, I too, was born a Muslim. But sadly,
my folks, my parents, who didn't know any better, taught me the fate of their fathers, they taught me Christianity. And I came to love the church that I belong to. I came to respect them.
And I was raised up a Christian, and all my life, I cherished the thought that one day, I would pray and work for the church, I would become a priest.
I worked hard. I studied hard. And I eventually did go to Rome.
But as a young cleric, young seminarian, you question a great deal. You learn a lot of darkness, learn a lot of philosophies. And I began to question all the time about the oneness of God, the creator of this universe.
But I still did not get enough information. I sometimes was a little bit of a headache to my professors. But they put up with me.
On my return, after my ordination to the DX unit, I came back to South Africa. And one of my dearest friends, was not at the airport make me
I was a little surprised and naturally disappointed.
And when I arrived at the airport, my parents said they hadn't seen this fella, his name was Carl. He was was going to become a priest in the Catholic Church
simutrans to see him.
And he told me that he and I could no longer be friends. So I said, what's preventing you and I becoming friends or remaining friends? He said, Well, I'm no longer a Catholic. I said, Fine. If you're no longer a Catholic, that shouldn't prevent us from bringing friends. But if you're no longer a Catholic, what are you?
He says, I'm a Muslim. I was stunned. I said, Muslim, they heathens, they don't believe in God. They don't believe in Christ, His opponent.
He said he wasn't prepared to fight with me. He wasn't prepared to argue with me. He said, Go along to the people who have taught me Islam and talk to them. So I said, who's done this to you? He said, after do that, I said, that does it. I've had enough of this man. I'm going to see him, which I did. yesterday that Mr. banker and Mr. Khan, were in the office in a dress arcade and I went along,
but it was an encounter of the dead kind. I hadn't anticipated such a man.
And within a short period of time, he proved to me step by step. That isn't a trinity. He revealed to me the simplicity and beauty of others word in the Holy Quran, and eventually won Juma on Friday, which is our congregational day, I was reciter of La ilaha illAllah, Muhammad Rasulullah. Which means there is no object worthy of worship except Allah. And Muhammad sallallahu alayhi Salaam is the Messenger of Allah.
It's very difficult when one becomes a revert. And to get back to the revert.
Very often we've we imagine, we think that people are converts. Nobody converts to Islam. I said, originally, everyone is born Muslim. We just go off the Serato gnostic game, who go off the straight path. So I reverted back onto the path of Islam.
It was difficult, very, very, very difficult.
The community I had left, were not too happy with me, my family persecuted me.
But it's understood. I think if I had a son or daughter and they were to leave
To another religion or convert, other than to another religion other than Islam, I would naturally be upset.
I found a new life in Canada. I went to live in Canada for a time
started a new practice. I had new friends, I had this new religion.
But I was destined to come back. But in all this time that I was away, I wasn't practicing this new religion is Islam. I was a Muslim, I'd recited the calendar, but I wasn't practicing it. But now 100 I'm a five time namazi that means I make my Salafi times a day. And I'm full time with the Islamic Propagation center. I'm a missionary for Islam.
Having gone to Canada,
and seen a very beautiful country
draws my attention to our guest speaker today. Gary Miller, who comes from Toronto and Canada. He's a Canadian citizen, is a husband and father of two children. And we indeed very, very fortunate to have him with us to spend this short period of time is in South Africa. Because he has a very busy schedule. He travels a great deal throughout the world. In fact, he's on his way to Australia for the second time.
And we have much in common Canadian backgrounds.
Both Catholics, previous Catholics,
he had the desire to become a priest, Catholic education.
He had Jesuit education. I was also educated by the Jesuits Iran
had he was an altar boy, I was an altar boy. So we really had a lot to talk about yesterday, when I met him. We found out this common denominator. But I had gone from Catholicism to Islam.
A Gary here went from Catholicism to something else. And I'm going to get him to tell you about that shortly.
And I would like you to give him a good hearing.
are very, he's a broadcaster. He appears on TV, he has a public lectures and on radio. He's an author.
He's deserving of a good hearing. I'd like you to listen to him. I'd like you to ask him as many questions as you'd like. And I call upon you Gary Miller to meet the people of Durban just
to my Muslim friends and Salaam Alaikum. To Christian friends, peace be with you.
They both mean the same thing as it happens to everyone in general. Welcome.
Mr. D that spoke and of course, he said some things that Christians probably don't like to hear.
Not necessarily because they're not true things. I mean, it is true that many of the bishops of the Church of England have said, Jesus is not divine that that's a fact they have said that. What is annoying to many Christians is to say how could a man who calls himself a Christian say that?
In any case, I too will say some things that will annoy people, some things that maybe Muslims don't want to hear some things that maybe Christians don't want to hear. But ask yourself, Is it because it wasn't true? Or why does it bother me? If you don't like to hear what I've said,
as my friend has said,
we just got into a discussion. I met him for the first time I believe it was only yesterday that we found out that we did at one time live within a few 100 miles of each other in Canada for a period of about six or eight years. But unless I bumped into him on the street, I don't remember ever meeting him until yesterday.
He said that he went from Catholicism into Islam, I went from Catholicism toward the Protestant churches. Now,
I have to clarify though first, don't misunderstand where we're going. I didn't come here at the invitation of a church. Mr. D that asked me to come here.
didn't pay me to come here. A couple of days after I got here. I asked him who's paying for this trip.
He said we can't afford it. Alright, that's the end of that.
So nobody paid me to come here.
I am invited from time to time to speak in churches and sometimes I speak in mosques and most often I simply speak at universities in open forums.
You see a lot of churches like what I say and a lot of churches don't like what I say
Leah was speaking in Vancouver on the west coast of Canada. And when I finished my speech, somebody came up and told me how horrible it was. He said, as a Christian, he was very offended by what he heard. And he was very upset. And another man right behind him came up. And he was a minister in the United Church of Canada, that's the largest denomination in Canada. He shook my hand. He said, That was beautiful. I want your name and address. I liked what you said. So you see, you can't ever paint all Christians with one brush. I come from one extreme to the other. Any two differences you can think of? there'll be people in between those two extremes. So please understand some churches
appreciate what I say. Some do not to clarify some terminology. I was surprised to find him this morning. I looked in the newspaper talking about things going on in the city today. And it said, Gary Miller is going to be speaking an evangelist. Well,
four years in doing evangelical work with churches, preaching on the street corner, or in a church or anywhere that I went, people would tell me, that's evangelism you're doing, you're an evangelist, and I used to tell them, I prefer you wouldn't use that word.
Because as carefully as I've ever looked through the Bible, I've never found the word evangelist on the lips of Jesus. I'm not saying it's a bad word. You want to call yourself an evangelist Be my guest. me. I prefer not to always prefer not to because I didn't see Jesus used that word. That doesn't mean it's wrong. I'm just trying to take only what I ever saw that he said, and he never used that word.
I was surprised to hear yesterday that
when you go my friend here, told me that he got a phone call from somebody who wants to know my credentials, by what authority and power did I speak about Islam and Christianity?
I was kind of surprised to hear that.
The caller said he was a Christian.
It's a very unchristian thing to do. That's what the Jews and the Romans and so on used to ask about the disciples of Jesus, you find in Acts chapter four, among other places, when the disciples would try to preach the Romans or the Jews would say, by what authority Do you preach? What school did you go to? You're just a fisherman. How do you dare to speak.
So I'd hope that's not typical of most people that they seem to think a Christian today has to be like a faricy, he has to go through the school and get a certificate and he's approved. I can give you credentials like that if you want, but I'd be ashamed to lower myself to that level.
Now, please understand,
no matter what you think, you hear me say, I am trying to help the Christian missionary, alright.
Somebody told me a few minutes ago, you can't help the Christian missionary, if you stand on the same platform with the dad.
I'm trying to help Christian missionary, listen carefully.
A lot of people don't see it that way, of course.
Because a lot of people, Muslims and Christians alike, they want to drink milk all their lives. So if you give a baby milk, and you keep giving him milk, he'll get bigger and bigger. But suppose you never gave him anything else, but milk.
After some time, he starts to get sick. That comes a time when you need meat and fruit and vegetables.
Paul wrote that in one of his letters, it's in the Bible. He said, Let's go beyond the mill. And we've got to get into the meat.
say most of the Christian community and the Muslim community, like they want to come and go to their meetings on a weekly basis and hear the same old thing over and over. Don't forget to pray, praise the Lord hallelujah. And so on. The different one in the meat. You see, this is milk. We all know this.
has to go beyond this sometimes.
When I see I'm trying to help the missionary,
I'm talking about this. I'm saying to the missionary, you want to convert the Muslim to Christianity. But look what you're doing. instead.
You say you're trying to convert the Muslim you write books, you have speeches, and so on, you want to convert the Muslim, instead of converting a Muslim Look what you're doing because of what you say.
You see the missionary, once the Muslim to start thinking, so he asks him some questions, he has discussions and so on. He plants little seeds. He wants the Muslims to start thinking but the missionary does not tell the Muslim what to think he just wants him to start thinking. He doesn't tell him what to think, because the missionary usually hasn't thought about it himself.
Now, if that sounds serious, let me illustrate what I'm getting at by a few examples. The missionary says to the Muslim does the Quran say that Jesus was sinless?
The Muslim says Yes, perfect man never said
And the missionary says, Does the Quran tell Mohammed to repent?
And the Muslim says yes, it tells him to repent. That's all. missionary doesn't say anything else. He hopes now the Muslim is going to start thinking, well, now wait a minute, Jesus never sin, but Mohammed was supposed to repent, maybe Jesus is better. He's hoping. But he doesn't dare say that. Because if he says that, if he says, Do you know a sinless man is better than a repentant sinner? If he dares to say that he goes exactly against the teachings of Jesus, if he's foolish enough to say that he goes exactly against the teachings of Jesus.
My advice to Muslims, if somebody asks you those questions, you asked him, to tell you the story of the prodigal son. Everybody knows the story. In the Bible, you say the story of the prodigal son, the young man who told his father, give me the money that I would get when you die. I want it now. And then he ran away, and he spent it on terrible things. Ask him to tell you that story and tell you what is the lesson of that story?
Because the lesson of that story,
involves the complaint of the other brother in the family, the good son.
When the evil son came back and repented, the father welcomed him, and the good son complained, he said, I've never done anything wrong.
And you look how you treat my brother, who was so bad. And his father told him how wrong and attitude that was said your brother was dead. Now he's alive.
You see, the perfect man does not have any preference over the sinless man or the repentant sinner in Christianity.
Make the missionary tell you the story of the lost sheep.
Jesus said, Matthew chapter 18, verse 12, it starts. Jesus said, What do you think if a man has 100 sheep and one of them has gone astray? Does he not leave the 99 on the hills and go in search of the one that went astray? And if he finds it, Truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the 99 that never went astray.
Jesus was trying to hammer that point home to his disciples saying, Don't you dare say because, for example, you've been a faithful follower for many years that you're better than this one who just became a believer yesterday.
The perfect man has no precedence over the repentant sinner.
In fact, this whole argument would not exist if both Muslims and Christians were better aware of the meaning of the word sin, but that's another story and we don't have time for.
To illustrate again, the missionary says to the Muslim, was Jesus the Messiah, and the Muslim says, yes. And the missionary says was Mohammed the Messiah. The Muslim says, No. Then he stops again, hoping the Muslim will go away and think now wait a minute, Jesus as Messiah but Mohammed isn't? Maybe Jesus is better.
what you want to ask the missionary is about this word Messiah. Ask him, Jesus was the Messiah. But were there any other messiahs besides Jesus?
Now you find out how well he knows his Bible. Because there were many, David Solomon, even Cyrus, the Persian were called Messiah. It's hard to find that in the Bible, because the translators cover it over they translate the word. Messiah means anointed, somebody picked to do a job, somebody single out said you are the one, every king of ancient Israel was called Messiah.
Now the name doesn't look quite so special anymore. It is a title.
But it does not particularly elevate to some divine status.
I'm trying to show you that the arguments are not good enough that are being used, and I see in print all the time.
The missionary asks the Muslim, where's the body of Jesus? And the Muslim says God took it.
And the missionary says where's the body of Mohammed? And the Muslim says it's in Medina and the ground missionary stops, hoping the Muslim will go away and think now that's interesting. The body of Jesus is gone. Mohammed is in the grave.
Maybe Jesus is the true messenger Muhammad is false. He's hoping you'll think that but he they're not see it.
Because what you want to ask the missionary? Is that what you mean to say? Do you mean that a dead and buried prophet is a false prophet? Is that what you mean? Make him finish it. Because if that's what he means, what does he say about Abraham for example,
or an Arabic to say Ibrahim Jews and Muslims till now still go to the place where he's buried?
The visit his grave? Is he a false prophet because he's dead and in the ground?
For that matter, where's the body of Moses?
The Bible says God took it. He sent an angel take the body away. What does it prove?
what disturbs me most I guess because even now we're seeing Finally, a turnaround in the Pentecostal churches where, for years the Pentecostal insisted you're saved not by works but by your faith.
Pentecostal church is starting to finally put the two together know its faith and work side by side.
What the missionary has always accused the Muslim of is to say you people believe you're saved by works alone. And they quote the Quran.
The 32nd chapter of the Quran the 19th verse or
it says if you'll excuse my terrible Arabic, Emma Latina, Emma knew why bluesoleil had fella whom Jana to our New Zealand be magkano Yama loon, which means and for those who believe and do good works for them, gardens or refuge and entertainment for what they used to do.
The quote this verse saying, you see Muslims believe that saved by works alone. Somehow the word is there in print, they don't see it. It says eminonu what Emmylou Sally had eminonu they believe what Emmylou Sally had, and they do good works. They believe and they do good work. So the two are together.
You see, in the Arabic language, the word only has to change a little bit, and it becomes a different part of speech. eminonu means they believe a man made from the same letters means what you believe your belief, your faith.
What this verse is saying, is you've got to have faith and works side by side, not one, not the other, but both.
Which is exactly what is found in the Bible, and the little book of James,
especially the second chapter of the little book of James.
Now the Protestant reformers at first didn't like James, very much, Martin Luther said it was an epistle of straw, blow it away, didn't like it.
In the second chapter of James, he makes the point several times, particularly in the 26th verse, he says to the Christian community, For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith, apart from works is dead. It's not faith or works. It's faith and works together. That's what the Muslim believes. That's what the book of James says, Don't tell the Muslim he believes he saved by works alone, he doesn't believe it. And he only thinks you're foolish because you think that's what it says in the Quran, when you quote it to him.
So far, my points are simply these that discussions about the sinless Jesus or Jesus, the Messiah, or Jesus taken into heaven or faith and works, don't prove anything. They're not arguments, they're going to lead somewhere. The complaint I have against Muslims is sometimes you let yourself be led around by the nose, think.
I'll just say, well, the man's an expert, I don't know.
Think it's not how much you know, it's what do you do with what you know how much you use your head.
Even the bible tells people let's reason together God says, Come let us reason together in the first chapter of Isaiah.
Now, it is true that the Quran is very critical of some Jews and Christians, not all some Jews and Christians, the Quran is critical of them.
And the third chapter of the Quran, the third surah, beginning about the 77th verse, or is
it speaks of some among the Jews and Christians, it says, There is among them a group who distort the book with their tongues, you would think that it is part of the book, but it is no part of the book. And they say that is from God, but it is not from God, it is they who tell a lie against God. And well, they know what a Muslim is familiar with the Scripture. From his book, it says, look, some of the Jews and Christians lie about the contents of their book. They distort it.
The Muslim has every reason to believe this is true. When he just looks at what is offered in literature, he goes into a bookstore that sells Bibles, and he finds that there's so many different versions.
And he looks carefully he sees that. The newer Bibles leave out some of the words that are in the older Bibles. And the newer Bibles have some words that are in the older Bibles. Something's going on that looks funny to him, and he thinks of this verse.
Now, of course, someone is going to go away, meaning they're probably going to go away and say that I stood here and I insulted Bible Translators because it's the translators of the Bible that do that I'm not.
I'll be happy to insult a few. Because they do this kind of thing. They're guilty of manipulation.
But just as Jesus used to talk
To a crowd of people.
He told them what he wanted to tell them. And every so often he'd see someone in the audience of faricy, or somebody that was misleading the people and he'd point him out said that one is a liar.
He was not diplomatic.
That's why he got into so much trouble from place to place. Because when he saw a liar, he pointed him out as such, I'm not gonna do that. But I'm just showing you.
If you speak harshly of someone, you're only following the example of Christ, he found that there was a time and a place to single out the people who lead others into unbelief.
You see, some translators of the Bible are honest. And they fight with their contemporaries over the proper translations to say you've changed that it should be this they fight about it. Two of them, for example, are Goodspeed and Moffitt
whose Bibles are printed under their own names because no church would back them up. They were too honest.
As I said, the Quran is critical of some Jews and Christians.
It says in the third surah that the Quran is for Khan and Arabic, it means criterion. It explains in the third verse, that the Quran is supposed to be used as the basis of judging which is true and which is false in their scriptures.
It says in the fifth surah, that the Quran reveals much of what the Jews and the Christians used to hide.
Now, of course, the Jew in the Christian doesn't like to hear that.
But they do quote some of the Quran back to the Muslim,
but they do it badly is what I'm trying to tell you.
They code it back badly. In this way. They try to make it serve their purpose. There's no escaping it. The Quran says the Jews and the Christians hide things, they change things and so on. So there's no sense in trying to find a verse somewhere that
to prove that No, no, the Quran says that everything in the Bible is true, but that's what people do.
In the fifth chapter of the Quran, they quote a verse again, if you excuse my Arabic, which says one zelner likely keytab they'll hack Masada again, Lima binah, yada he Milka tab. They quote this and it says the translation is speaking of the Quran that it is sent down to the Prophet, it says, and we sent down to you the book in truth, confirming that which they possessed of the book before.
And you see the Christian says, You see there the Quran says the Bible is true.
It says the Quran was sent down to confirm to say it's truthful what they have in their book.
That's what that sentence says, If you stop there, but that's the middle of the sentence.
There's two more words in the sentence.
They are wha Mohammed Nan Alayhi.
You see, the whole text says we have sent down the book in truth confirming that which they had of the book before this. And as a watcher over it, their book,
Mohammed Nyan as the Arabic word mu high man is an interesting word. It means quality control, you use a form of that word, to designate the man in a factory who stands at the end of the assembly line and finds the rejects and throws them out.
The whole text, that whole verse from the Quran says the Quran confirms that which is truthful in their book, and
it's the quality control agent. It's the thing that shows you which parts are not true.
You don't fool a Muslim by quoting that. If he goes and looks it up himself and realizes you only read half a sentence. It's a dishonest quote.
Now, of course,
some missionaries respond with great pain on their faces, and say to the Muslim on the Muslim says, you have changed your scriptures. He says, oh, how can you say that? How could you as a Muslim, change the Quran? You couldn't do that? How could I change the Bible?
the answer is very easy, very easy. Bibles, not the same thing as the Quran. For at least three reasons. The Quran has always been in the hands of the people, always from the time of the Prophet people wrote it down if they could write and and memorize and so it's always been in the hands of the people. Nobody ever disagreed on what were the contents.
The Prophet died, his friends met. And they agreed by gathering all the writings they had said this is the Quran and nobody disputed it. Nobody said no, he left something out. No, this doesn't belong. Nobody argued from the beginning.
The Bible doesn't have that history. The Bible has been the property of the church, not the people.
The first table of contents to the Bible that reads the same as the contents of the Bible now, dates from the year 367. More than 300 years after Jesus finally that is
Which books belong in the Bible? It's point 1.2. The Bible is in dead languages. The Quran is in a living language. 120 million people speak Arabic the language of the Quran.
The Bible is written in ancient Hebrew, ancient Aramaic and ancient Greek, which nobody speaks.
A handful of scholars know it.
So the to change it
is an easy thing. If you're a translator to read one thing and tell somebody something else. That's easy. Third point.
There has never been so much as a letter in dispute about the Quran. No one has even so much has said this letter is wrong and your copy of the Quran. Unless it's a misprint that nobody ever dispute should be this, it should be that and we have a battle over it.
Where's the Bible has come down from many, many manuscripts. Any Bible that's worth buying is filled with footnotes. Almost every page will have a footnote. So you read the verse, footnote read down here, it says, or this verse might be and it gives you an alternate translation, or what some other manuscripts says. So when somebody says, I mean, it's a shallow argument, if somebody says, look, Muslims can't change the Quran, how could Christians change the Bible? It's because they're two different kinds of things.
to doubt, the authenticity of the Bible is not a Muslim idea. It's not Muslims who became the enemies of the Bible, somehow.
They're not enemies of the Bible.
The doubtful authenticity of the Bible is an old idea found within the Bible.
It's a biblical idea.
So if you ask the question, who wrote the Bible? I mean, who took the ink in the pen and put the words on the page? Who did that? They answer the scribes.
That was their job in ancient time, the scribes meant they wrote the scriptures.
Well, in Jeremiah, chapter eight and verse eight, it talks about the scribes. Now some Jews will tell you that Jeremiah is the only authentic book left in the whole Bible.
I don't believe that myself, but that's how sure they are about Jeremiah. The most authentic book in the Bible, they say, Jeremiah, chapter eight, verse eight, it says, How can you say we are wise and the law of the Lord is with us. But Behold, the false pin of the scribe has made it into a lie.
See, in this place, God is telling you don't be so sure that everything you have in your hands is scripture, the scribes right lies with their pins, watch out.
Where are these lies, if everything in the Bible is legitimate?
So what I'm trying to get at is that the Muslim agrees with most churches, most churches say, yes, the Bible contains the words of God. And some other words. Besides that, the Muslim agrees. The Bible contains the words of God in some other words.
It's only a minority, Christian position, who will say every word in the Bible came from God, none of it came from man, that's a minority view. But it seems to be the view that the missionary feels he has to sell, even if he doesn't believe in himself.
As many ways of establishing that fact. But a basic point is made in Isaiah chapter 40, verse eight. This is a verse that some people like so much, the Bible I have there is a New American Standard. They put it on the inside front cover, they like this verse so much, Isaiah 40, and eight, it says, the grass withers and the flower feeds, but the word of our God stands forever.
It's saying, if it's the Word of God, it doesn't get lost. It stands forever. God says it, it will always be there, according to this verse.
But the churches which say the Bible is totally without error, will always modify that
by saying they believe the Bible to be inerrant, that is without error inherent in the original manuscript, not the manuscripts we have today in the original.
So that if you show someone look, this disagrees with that, or this is incorrect, and so on, he can tell you, that's true. That's a mistake. But that mistake was not in the original.
asking how did the mistake get here? They'll tell you the original got lost.
Well, then the original was not the word of God if it got lost, was it.
Isaiah 40, and eight says if God says it, it doesn't get lost. The verse doesn't say, the grass withers, the flower fades, but the Word of God stands forever, except for a few little details. There's no qualification.
And books have been written documenting the errors. And yet this excuse is still offered.
See if missionary would only make this concession, if he would only say, all right, not all of the Bible came from God.
He'd be more believable.
I have a Muslim friend of mine in Toronto, who was besieged by a missionary group. They're the fellowship of faith whose whole goal in life is to convert Muslims, surrounded by them constantly. Give them all kinds of literature and that the finally he told me, he said,
you know, the miracle of this book, he meant the Bible, he says that people believe it came from God. That's the miracle.
Because on the one hand, people are trying to tell him, it's perfect. The other hand, they'll tell you, well, except here, it's not perfect, and so on. But that's because it got lost, and so on. It's an excuse that's inconsistent with the claim.
If a missionary would say, not everything that we call scripture should be called scripture, if he would only say that he'd be more believable.
Now, as I said, I know some of that probably is upsetting to some people. If it's upsetting. Ask yourself, why did I make a mistake? Did I say something is not true? If so, what is it?
The own my own personal experiences, and not particularly exciting or anything, but maybe they illustrate
a course of events
that you might find interesting. You see, when I was in high school, taught in high school by Franciscans, later in university by Jesuits,
I get the highest grades they ever had in religion. History at eight plus, plus, plus, across the front of the page, great praise. The teacher said never had a student like this
is terrific grades and religion. But it occurred to me one day, after two or three years of this it, somehow it registered on my mind, the reason the grades are high, is because I remember everything the man said,
when it comes time for an exam, I can write down everything I heard him say and give it back. So I get a perfect mark.
That doesn't mean it's true. That was my frustration.
It took about my teacher saying, I can tell you all of this, I know the whole explanation. What is the proof?
You see, we have to always decide when somebody is having a conversation with us. Are they explaining it? Or are they proving it?
People usually fool themselves, they explain it, they think they're proving it.
If you ask somebody, how do you know Jesus died for your sins? What's the proof? He starts to tell you about? Well, you see, God is holy man's a sinner. Jesus has to die and so on. That's not the proof. That's an explanation. That's how it's supposed to work. I know that.
How do you know what happened to see? It's the proof you want
the Catholic Church I couldn't find that
proof because they tend to look to authorities other than a scripture, the Bible.
Don't be confused. If there's one thing I wish I can hammer into everybody's head. It's this idea explanation is not the same as proof.
I asked the man last time I was in Australia.
Same thing I said, how do you how do you know man has to have his sins redeemed? And he said, Well, God is 100%. Holy 100%. Holy, you are a sinner. God cannot deal with you directly because he is 100%. Holy, you are a certain percentage sinner. It's an explanation.
It's an explanation. But is it true?
See, Think about it. If I told you that in New York City is the holiest man that ever lived.
I could talk about him for an hour maybe and I build up a great reputation. I say he's the holiest human being that ever live. Finally, maybe you'd say, Well, I'm gonna save my money. I want to go to New York City and meet him. I want to shake his hand. And I'll tell you no, no, no, he won't even let you come in the same room with him. He's too holy. You can talk to a secretary. But he couldn't stand the Look at you. He's too holy.
Now, what do you think of this man? Is he holy? Or is he crazy?
See, an explanation is an explanation. It may or may not be true. It's proof of something else.
What I wanted
was proof that Jesus say so.
I got into a discussion with a man who used to have a radio program
on the Bible.
And so I asked him, if he could prove to me some of the things he believed. He said, I don't have a Bible. I said, I have one here.
I put a Bible which is called a red letter edition. They put all of the words of Jesus in reading.
And I'd asked him Do you believe such and such and he'd say certainly, here's the proof. And he'd open up the Bible. he'd read me something from the blacking.
And I kept saying, No, show me in the reading. did Jesus say that things? I know Paul said it. I know this and that. And the other thing. did Jesus say that thing you tell me you believe.
And he kept stroking my Bible like it was a pet cat is very fond of it. But I kept pushing that way and pushing I kept saying did Jesus say it?
Suddenly he didn't like the Bible anymore. And he threw it back at my face. He said, You know what your problem is? You won't believe that unless Jesus said it.
Yes, that's my problem. It should be his problem.
How does he dare to teach something if he can't, and call himself a Christian, if he can't show you that Jesus said, this thing is talking about?
It should be easy to find if Jesus said, some of the things people say, he said, should be easy to find. Do you know if you took all the words of Jesus reported in the Bible, and eliminate the duplications? Because you have the same story basically told four times, if you eliminate the duplications, the total of all the words of Jesus do not even feel two columns of A newspaper.
there's not very many words. So if you set these different things, you don't really have a lot of work to look down and find them.
So as I say, among Protestant churches, I have been involved with the Church of England, the Presbyterians, Pentecostals, Baptist, Jehovah's Witnesses, christadelphians, you name them, you probably can't name one I haven't heard of unless it's something local here. To be involved with them for nine years.
I read their books and visited took part in their meeting used to teach some of their Bible classes.
We kept coming back to this, What proof do you offer what proof
so they bring out a handful of their favorite verses, john 316-858-1013 14, and 920 and 28.
And so on. But for every one of those verses, there's another verse which would be put it right beside that verse, you find out what they were trying to say won't work. Hebrews 11 seven, teen, Exodus chapter three.
JOHN, Chapter 17, john, chapter five and Exodus chapter six to go on the order of the verses I named you there, you put those beside those verses, and the argument dissolves, among others.
They don't prove the divinity of Jesus doesn't mean he's not divine. These things don't do the job. That's the problem. I'm not saying he's not divine, I'm saying I still want to see the proof. Did he say so?
Then the real test of sincerity was what disappointed me.
And so you can take one of these verses, somebody shows you,
john 14 and nine, for example, Jesus said to Philip, if you've seen me, you've seen the Father.
So I asked him, How is it he said in this other place to a group of people, you people have never seen the Father. Don't tell me in this place, he means he's God. When in this place, he told some people who were looking at him, you've never seen God must have meant something else. You tell somebody that and they'll say, okay, you have a point. What about this verse and they go to another verse, it's fine. But next week, somebody will come to that same man and say, where's the proof that Jesus said He was God, He will read john 14 and nine right back where he started from a verse which a week ago, he told me wasn't good enough. It'll be good enough for somebody else, because he hopes
he doesn't know the response I had.
beginning about 1969,
the same story I seem to get, I go from church to church and ask them, you know, if you took all the words of Jesus, and you cut them out of the Bible with a scissors, and then I gave you some paste until you put them back together anyway, you like, take all these words, put them back together, paste them together, how you like, you still can't make them spell out. The Trinity is still doesn't say anything about it, no matter how you change these words.
So they tell me, that doesn't mean it isn't true. The Trinity is an evolved understanding the church didn't understand this deep thought, at first, the understanding evolved over the centuries, it was discussed, people came to understand it and believe it. Fine. But if that's what you say, you shouldn't say on the other hand, Jesus used to preach it.
If you tell me people didn't figure it out for 200 years, don't tell me Jesus preached it.
So they would say, No, no, he preached it. But it's not in the Bible. He used to preach it to his disciples. He told them about it.
Well, in the 18th chapter of john, Jesus says very clearly, I taught nothing in secret. So everything I had to say I said in the marketplace, didn't tell his disciples any secrets.
More solutions are offered to me. People told me your problem is you're not spiritual enough believe that it's easy believe. What you see. A person can't make themselves believe if they know better.
What sometimes happens to human beings, they get a pain so their head is hurting. They go to a doctor, they tell him I've got this pain, it won't go away. The doctor makes some tests, a full examination, maybe some x rays and he finds us nothing wrong. So he realizes the man's problem is mental. So imaginary pain, doesn't tell the man that it gives him a placebo. There are things
It looks like pills, but they're only milk, sugar, just sugar. He goes to his patient, and he says, We've made some tests. This is the medicine you need take these pills, and in one day your pain should stop.
It almost always does. Because the man thinks he's getting some medicine. And so his mental abilities get rid of the pain. That's a placebo. It works that way. I can't do the same thing with belief though I can't manufacture it. You see if a doctor came to me and he said, you know, your problem is mental. I have some sugar pills here. believe that these are medicine with all your heart. believe they are medicine, try very hard. And when you believe that they are medicine, the pain will go away. I can't do it.
He told me there sugar. I know better. So in the same way, it's not satisfactory that somebody comes in he says believe believe believe how can you believe if you know better?
Faith overcomes people told me faith overcomes
you must be born again. And that I took a real interest in you must be born again.
I want to know how does this work? Where's the proof in the scripture?
brought me Romans chapter eight. is very interesting. Romans chapter eight, Paul says,
if you are born again, what happens is the Spirit of God comes into you. And it tells you that God is now your father. And so you cry out Abba, Father.
So this is how it's supposed to work. It's fascinating. I gave that a lot of thought. But I got to thinking about this word, Abba. It's unusual means father and Aramaic. So I looked up the word ob, but where else is it in the Bible?
Well, there's only one other place that Paul talks about ABA, let you find it for yourself. One of the place he talks about ABA. And in this place, he also talks about how it is that this thing works. He says, The Spirit of God comes within you, you become a child of God, you call out to God Abba Father. Now God is your father. And he goes on to say, now you have a new mother, also a new mother, God is your father and you have a mother.
Since 1969, till now 15 years, I have yet to meet someone who's born again and ask them, who's your father? They say God, I say, who's your mother? They don't know.
Why not? It's in the Bible says you have a new mother. If you're born again. Why did the Spirit of God when it came within you forget to tell you who was your mother, it's there. Let you find it. It's there.
You see this lamb, if you call a man a liar, you better have proof or you're the one that's in trouble.
And somebody over there calls me a liar. He better have proof. You see, unless he's not a Muslim of other religions permit you to call that name without proof. That's their business.
as I say, for many years, I went directly to priests and ministers.
From about 1969, to 77, there abouts.
and round and round we go, I don't want to bore you with a lot of the conversations, but they go round in tiny little circles, and it's disappointing.
People ask me to say who was the father of Jesus? I say he didn't have a father. And they say, well, then you see, Mary is the mother. God is the Father. So I would ask you mean Mary is the wife of God?
Oh, they're horrified. Oh, no.
God is the father Mary is the mother. And as you mean his, his parents weren't married though.
Oh, God doesn't take a wife.
Go on to something else.
They say what Jesus called godfather. And I always ask people who tell me that I say what do you call God?
Probably its father.
People who say that they pray Our Father.
But he called himself Son of God, they say, and I tell him, yes. And he called lots of other people Son of God. He said, Blessed are the peacemakers they shall be called sons of God.
became very frustrated on the crucifixion and believe that the crucifixion happened. The wonder why
so many people that why did God have to become a man and die?
If a price has to be paid for our sins, why can't we just go find a sinless man and execute him and say there the price is paid? to which people always said no, if a man dies, it's not enough. It has to be someone who has God and man.
And so I'd always asked them, Do you mean God died? No, no, no, only the man died. Back when we started from the man dies, it isn't good enough. See, that's a it's not a novel idea on my part, the church
still discussing that till this day, they're still not sure who died on the cross. Was it God? Or was it man? Or was it the god man or what was the deal? Because it can't if God doesn't die, because that means changing from one state to another, and God doesn't change one state to another. He's supposed to be immutable, and so on, it's still discussing that.
They say Jesus paid a price for your sins.
pay the price, could never understand that. In the Lord's Prayer, Jesus taught his disciples how to pray, he said, Pray like this. And one of the lines he told them, he said, Pray to God say, forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us. more modern translations say, forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. How do you forgive someone who owes you a debt? Do you say, you know that money you owe me? Forget it. Now give me the money.
If you forgive it, it's that there's no price, nothing is paid, it's forgiven. So the Lord's Prayer says, forgive us our sins the same way we forgive someone who sinned against us. If someone slaps you, and you forgive him, that's the end of that. But you don't say I forgive you for slapping me now. Come here, I want to slap you.
Don't do that.
About what would it be 500 years ago, there was a Jew in Europe. Spinoza was his name, Baruch Spinoza.
philosopher, and he wrote a great deal. And he made the same point that people were making 500 years before him. He was frustrated when the Christians would come to him and say, God became man, he would say, What do you mean? God became man. See, I know what is God and I know what is man. And I can imagine that what was God turned into a man. It's not God anymore. Used to be God. Now he's a man, I can understand that at least makes some sense. But that's not what the Church teaches. I say God became man, but he was still God.
And that causes the problem.
You see, if I have a ball of clay, and I squeeze it, and I put corners on it, and I make it into a cube, I can tell you, you see the ball became a cube. But I can't tell you don't be fooled, it's still round.
See, if it was one thing, it became another thing, it's not that thing anymore.
It's all that by putting a label on and they call it die, or physicalism. doesn't prove anything means to nature's dial physicalism. That's an old trick when you don't know the answer, put a label on it.
In ancient Greece, the Greeks 25 centuries ago came to their scientists with a question.
They'd observed that you eat food, it goes through the system, and some of it comes out. They want to know which part of what I take in is the part that feeds me because evidently, I don't need all of it. One of which is the nutritive faculty of the food. And the scientists didn't know so they said, the part that feeds you is the nutritive faculty of the food.
It's like saying the part that feeds you is the part that feeds you. So the label doesn't answer anything.
I say I could talk to you for hours about experiences.
of 1977, I decided to have a look at the Quran. I never met a Muslim. I lived 100 kilometers from the nearest Muslim.
See what interested me was what non Muslims said about Muhammad.
There are books and books written about Mohammed that tell you one thing we know for sure about this man, he had an outside source of information.
One book I've got says the Quran was written by a committee.
Because they've established so well, there's information in there that an Arabian shouldn't have known. He must have had someone from the outside bringing him this information. Since the one thing we know for sure. He had an outside source of information. Now, he said, This book was a revelation. So they say he was a liar. He got it from somewhere. He put it in a book and he gave it to someone telling him it was from God. He was a liar.
Other people write books and books on the subject of Mohammed and they say one thing we know for sure, he thought he was a prophet. He was crazy.
Because they look at his life very carefully. And they see episodes. Like for example, when he hid in a cave with aboubaker. He was running from the whole city who wanted to kill him, and he hidden the cave. And when the Meccans came running up to the cave to kill them, what did he say to his friend? Did he tell him see if you can find a back way out of the cave?
what he told his friend was relax. He was telling him you know, I see what you say. But he said, God is with us. God will save us. So people on that basis, they say, you see he thought he was a prophet. He thought God was with him because he said things like that. He was
In a liar,
they never seem to realize that one man can't be both.
She can't be a liar and a crazy man at the same time. If you think that an angel gives the words of God in your ear,
and somebody says, I have a question for you, what does God tell you about this thing? Want to hear an answer tomorrow? If you're a crazy man, if you think an angel whispers in your ear, then you don't sit up that night thinking, What will I tell him tomorrow? What can I find? Who knows the answer? You're crazy. You think the angel will tell you the answer. You don't go and look it up somewhere.
Else, you can't be a liar and a crazy man at the same time.
You can be one or the other. or neither. You can't be both.
You see, I read two non Muslim biographies of Muhammad.
One was by rodents, and he was an atheist who hated the man.
But many interesting things come up about his life that I had to wonder about. One story that's told is that when he was an older man, he had a son named Ibrahim Abraham. The son died when the child was two years old. The same day the boy died, there was an eclipse of the sun.
Sky went dark. And the Muslims came running to their prophet and said, Look, it's a miracle your child died and the sky went dark in sadness.
It occurred to me see if he was a crazy man. He probably believed what they said. He probably think yes, it's a miracle. My child died, the sky is dark is it's a miracle. If he was a crazy man, if he was a liar, he would have taken advantage of it. He would have said Yes, right. My child died. The sky is dark. You tell everyone it proves I'm a prophet. It's a miracle. But what did he do?
He became angry with the Muslims. He told them that was nonsense. I was angry with him. How dare you say that? He said, the sun and the moon are signs of God and they don't worry themselves about the birth of a man or the death of a son of Mohammed
doesn't look very crazy doesn't look much like a liar.
Now you have a third alternative, of course, which people tell you all the time.
You say no, he was not a liar. He was not a crazy man. He was deceived by the devil.
See by the devil.
It's an interesting idea.
But whatever you say, you better be ready to back it up.
There's a lot of difficulties with that idea. For example, there is a verse in the Quran, which tells the reader about a good habit to develop. It tells him before you read this book, always say a little bit of him in a shaitana regime, which means I take refuge in God from Satan the rejected is this Satan who wrote this,
who said before you read my book, ask God, the Savior from me, said Satan wrote that.
As Jesus said, If Satan is divided against himself, then his kingdom will fall is fighting against his own interests.
So let me finish with a point that a story that illustrates a point.
As I said, there's many theories and many explanations around many explanations.
But an explanation, something somebody tells you is just so much air coming out of his mouth, unless he has proof.
And unless he offers you something that you can use to falsify it.
You see, there's many theories of how do the planets go around the sun? And how do the stars burn and all the rest of it? many theories, most of them are just so much wind, scientists Pay no attention to them, because they don't contain something that could be checked to prove it false.
You see, Einstein was considered an intelligent man, because when he offered his theory in 1905, and again in 1915, he didn't just offer a theory. He said, Here's three ways to prove I'm wrong.
Now, it's worth listening to he told me, here's three different things you can do if you can do this. I'm wrong. Here you are.
Is there anything like that in Christianity, as the Christian ever said, you want to prove I'm wrong, all you have to do is this is ever done that
the crime is filled with that kind of thing filled with it. So you want to prove this book is wrong? Do this, prove it, go ahead, do it. Filled with that kind of thing.
This is an example of it that made a big impression in its day.
during the lifetime, 14 centuries ago,
the prophet of Islam.
You see, he had an uncle named Abu lahab
Was his nickname I will have this man hated Mohammed he hated anything the man said. He used to watch him going through the city. And if you saw him talking to someone, he waited till they split up, he go after the man he spoke to and taking music. What did Muhammad tell you? Whatever it is, it's a lie. Did he tell you Dave? It's night? Did he say black? It's white,
exact opposite. Whatever he heard the Muslim say he said the opposite. That was the way his mind worked.
There's a little chapter of the Quran called lahab. And it says about this man that he'll never change. It condemns him to hell jahannam.
You see, if the man had ever become a Muslim, the Muslims would believe Well, now he's not condemned anymore. See, for 10 years before I would have died, that was a part of the Quran. And the Muslims could come to Abu lahab and say, do you know it's been revealed to us in your in our book that you will never be a Muslim? God says you will never be a Muslim.
for 10 years, they told him that all he had to do was say, well, your book is wrong. I want to be a Muslim. What do you think of your book now?
So I had to do
yet 10 years to think about it. That's the way he was. See, if somebody is your enemy, you don't come to him. And say, you want to prove I'm wrong here say this, come on. See it if all you have to do is say the words and I'm wrong, you finish me.
He never did it.
See, this is one of many cases of something that was offered that could have been falsifiable.
So it was, as I say, in 1978, after,
along with it be 15 years of arguing with the church authorities one place or another, I got the idea. I'm going to argue with some other people. I'm going to read the Quran, see how much of it is any good?
Pick out the true pick out the false
thought it'll take a few years and take some serious study and so on. I read through it about three days later, I finished it. I said, This is what I've been saying for 15 years.
So I want to find some Muslims.
I don't want somebody to feel you've been tricked into something.
I haven't said anything about Christianity that isn't true.
Anything about Islam that isn't true unless it was a slip of the tongue or something. I'm simply trying to
remind an individual Don't close your mind before it's too late. Don't make up your mind before you have all the facts.
Most people who used to be Christians and become Muslims will tell you, I am a better Christian than I used to be. Now I follow Christ I didn't before.
That's what I would tell you.
Bible says Jesus told his disciples when you greet one another, let your greeting be peace be with you. He set the example. Peace be with you who says that today? Christians?
once in a great while maybe Muslims whether they speak Arabic or not, they say Salaam Alaikum. Peace be with you. Jesus when he prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane, he put his forehead on the ground who prays like that Christians or Muslims? Jesus used to fast for more than a month at a time who fasts today, Christians or Muslims?
Who really is trying to imitate Jesus.
Somebody said to me for coming in here, they said, the Muslims make Jesus out, they insult him and so on and so on. How possibly do they insult him? they lift him up,
They can't tolerate anything bad said about him.
They would just as quickly tell you that you know the
say Muhammad Rasool Allah means Muhammad is the Messenger of God, they will just as quickly say he said Jesus, Isa rasulillah. No problem.
Just as quickly tell you that because it's true. They occupy the same place. If God Himself wants to make distinctions among his profits, that's his business, not ours. Treat them all with the same amount of respect. May God guide us always closer to the truth.
Mr. Gary Raymond Miller, thank you sir.
Ladies and gentlemen, it is now discussion time or question time. However, there are a few rules which you must follow.
Firstly, it is our desire to canvass as broad a spectrum of questions from as large a number of the members of the audience as possible. Each person is therefore restricted to one question, I know sometimes it is unavoidable. Proceeding a question with an explanatory discussion where this is absolutely necessary. I request you to be extremely cursory or succinct. However, if at all possible
We'll try and avoid, try and avoid proceeding. A question with a discussion. Ladies and gentlemen, you're now invited to walk up to the mic, which is a few meters away from ourselves, if at all possible to name yourselves and to state your designation as for example, Mr. john doe teacher, if you prefer to remain anonymous, that suits us.
And from there to put your questions, ladies and gentlemen, you may now walk up to the mic and ask questions through myself.
To the mics near the poles.
Ladies and gentlemen,
we have gathered here today, the name of God.
And this gathering
will make us understand what God is famous for. But I like to ask these people, what teaching us a very simple question
that we may understand what God wants us to
do. Can I speak to you? Yes, me? How do we know what God wants us to do? That was the question was, does it by theology? The word theology means God's relation with men and the universe.
Why did God create men and the universe? Word is the answer to this question.
That's okay, you're finished. theology is an invented word, which just means the study of God. And it's not a science, like biology is so that you don't know something about biology, you don't get a book about biology and you read and you you grant that what you read is true theology. Anybody who wants to write about God can write about God. So you can't go and pick up a book about theology. And so everything in it must be true. It's like biology. It's not a science like that. It's filled with everybody's opinion. So
people's opinions have to be sorted out according to how much they're worth. Now, the human mind will reach to a certain point, get some points correct. And some points false. But a careful man is supposed to be able to choose, this is the true this is the false this makes sense. This is nonsense.
Okay, so for a start, you've got your own mind, what you can figure out for yourself, and what you can judge from what other people have told you, you take input and so on. To come down to the final detail of it, you need a revelation from God, because
the human mind is different from anything else you find in creation, you find little insects, they need something to eat. Sure enough, there's something provided for them. Bigger animals, they need food, there's something else they eat, the plants have something they eat, everything is provided all the way up to scale, you get to the human being things are provided for there's a place to eat a place to sleep and so on. But he's got something nothing else has minded ask questions. So it's only reasonable to believe that if something is provided for all of his other needs, he has a need to know something must be provided he should look around somewhere he should find the provision that
answers his questions. And that is the nature of Revelation. Now, of course, there's lots of books that say this is a revelation, they make that claim. But again, you have to judge the authority. This book says it's from God read on, does it sound like God or not? Okay.
What's that? No,
we are not atheists.
Yes, I agree.
Where is the guidance place? I just told you, you're going to find it in some book somewhere that says this is a revelation from God. Okay. Lets you figure it out as you go along which ones are worth the title? Which ones deserve to be called a revelation and which ones don't? It's up to you to figure it out in your head. Okay, let me ask you one more question. The book is in the Bible. Thank you, Mr. Miller. Are there any other questions? Ladies and gentlemen, unfortunately, we don't have time to accommodate more than one question from one person. Are there any other questions please? Will you please take your seats?
My question is very brief.
I would like to ask Chris to sit down
from the Quran.
From the Bible, I can give him at least 25 predictions night by different prophets over a long period, over 1600 years apart,
and they will all will fold in connection with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ in three days. All those predictions? Is there any prediction made in the Quran,
which does not relate to the prophets of the Old Testament?
Thank you, sir. Mr. deedat. To clarify the question, is there any prophecy of the Quran you say, which does not relate to what I lost you there? I'm sorry, which is not taken from the Old Testament, or is there any prophecy in the grime? That doesn't come from the Old Testament? That's not taken from it? Yeah. Okay. Yes, sure. If it depends on what you mean by prophecy, if you're talking about a prediction of something to happen, yes. You have, for example, one of those falsifiable statements as I said, I believe he was quoting it when he talked, the Quran says to the Muslims, you will always find that those closest in Love to You will be the Christians rather than
the Jews. You see today that still stands or stood for 14 centuries to the Jews telling him you Jews want to prove Muslims are wrong here. The Quran tells you what to do. It says treat us better than the Christians do and will believe you. You see, it's told the Jew all you have to do is start treating Muslims very nice, let a few years go by then say to the Muslims, doesn't your book say the Christians are better friends than we are? better friends, but they never thought of it. That's a prophecy.
Your question has been framed in such a roundabout way. You said that is a very simple question. But if we will put it simply to me, it will make it easy for me to answer will you please repeat your question? My question is do you have any predictions in the Quran?
Any prophecy in the Quran in the Quranic era, there are prophecies in the Quran at the time of the prophets of Salaam when they were under trials and tribulations when they seem to be no hope. God Almighty gives the Holy Prophet Muhammad a hope that he is going to conquer and they will be able to return to Makkah and perform the hatch. Then there is a chapter in the Quran called surah.
room. And in that surah the incident that is referred to is that the Persians and the Romans, they were at war and the Persians conquered the Romans. And in the Quran, they were told that within a small period of time, the Romans will once more again conquer the Persians, these are prophecies being fulfilled in the lifetime of the Prophet and, and extending prophecy about the supremacy of Islam over all the religions. You see, in the Holy Quran, we are told,
this is us, the hero who led the Nicolay that the God Almighty has given Muhammad
in Islam, a religion, a way of life, that is going to conquer supersede every way of life, whether it be Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Christian ism. And from the figure that I gave you at the beginning of my talk, where I said that there are 1000 million Muslims in the world today as against 1000 200 million Christians,
numerical people who fill census forms 1000 200 million. But if you take into account that Islam started 600 years after Christianity,
you can see the obvious that Islam is superseding every other way of life. And in the plain truth magazine, of some humans back they were figures given of the progress or the growth of each and every religion on Earth, each and every philosophy and in that you will find the highest percentage of progress was given to Islam, something like 267% as against the Roman Catholics as against the Hindus as against the Jews every system. So here is a prophecy that is it is being fulfilled all the time. I hope that answers your question.
I simply I simply want to say that I agree with everything both speakers have said except for your second speak on one issue.
Does you first of all agree with me that God created the universe as well as us?
universe? Yes, do. Mr. Miller.
If I understand your question, you're saying, Do I believe that God created the universe as well as us? Yes, that's right. All
living creatures on this planet as well? Yes, of course. I don't know if it depends on how you mean create somebody told me a story the other day that said when he made man he rolled up his sleeves and he made man No, I don't believe that. No, no, no, no create however it happened. He created. Yeah, that happens. Yes, that I'm willing to go along with that. Okay. Okay. However he created, the fact is you agree that God created everything.
Now, you said it was not possible. I'm not I'm not talking to Christianity or anybody else. You said that.
Christ could not have been a virgin birth.
Be sure you misunderstood me. I didn't say that. No, no, no, no, no, I what I said, was people when they use this argument, when they say who was his father and they say God was his father. I asked them Do you mean God took marry his wife? I'm not denying that he had. I'm saying it had no father. That's physically possible. Some biologists will tell you you can do it today. You can you can make a child without a father you take like they do with rabbit eggs. They are they called a diploid, you put the if you'd if they touch each other, they will reproduce. But that's
possible. impregnation. I agree with that. But tell me, if God Himself chose to send or chose to come
to this planet, to the people who created in the form of a human being? Why do you think that he should have limitations in that he should not be able to do that?
No, I didn't say I didn't think he should be able to do that. What I'm pointing out to you was, you have to clarify what you mean. If you say God became a human being, I still want to know what do you mean? Do you mean he used to be God? But now he's a man, he's not God anymore? Or do you mean something else? and so on? that a person it's not, it's too easy to say, God took on the form of human being, I want to finish it for me? Did he surrender some of his physical powers? And they'll usually tell you yes. And then I say, Did he surrender his mental powers? And they'll have to think about that? Well, no, yes. Maybe he did. I don't know. And so you have to clarify, what do you mean,
if you say God became a man, you have to really explain what you mean, before I could possibly agree with you. What you're looking for now is scientific proof. No, no, I'm looking for an understanding of what someone means. It's a it's like me asking you, is it colder in the winter than it is in Alaska? And you're gonna say, What are you talking about in the winter in Alaska? And so you gotta clarify it? If you say, could God become a man, I'm saying, you explain to me what you mean. And I'll tell you whether I agree or not, is that you need a clear explanation of Do you mean, he gave up everything godly? And so there's no God anymore? He's become a man. But somehow he will become
God again? Or do you mean, he is a man? And he's God? In which case I want to know, then is he mortal or immortal?
Does he know everything or not? and so on? To answer your questions, I'll just assume that God became a man and remain God. Why was that not possible?
Because I said that the universe Why couldn't he do that? Because it is a logical mistake that people make when they say, God can do anything that's not true. God cannot do anything unless you believe he does stupid things. No, he do foolish things, does he do weak things? Does he do silly things? He is limited because he's God to doing godly things to start with. Now, if you tell me, he is a man, and he's God, I simply have a natural question. I'm saying, could they kill him or not, is immortal or immortal. God is immortal. Man is mortal, which was he if he's both and so on, to say, if he is a man, a man, by definition has limitations. That's what makes him a man. He doesn't know
everything. That's why he's a man. If God is the man, what is this being then does he know everything or only some things? If he knows only some things, he's a man, if he knows everything he's got to see.
That's the problem. It's that you cannot combine the two or so far, no one's ever done it for my satisfaction, you find the two you are simply using human logic, of course, is there a better kind of logic that was capable of creating the entire universe? You are now applying human logic? No. Is there another kind of logic? Where do I find it? Because if there's a better logic, you tell me where I can go find the textbook. I want to know about it. Well, if you say in the one breath, that he created the universe as well as everything that lives on this planet, you have to accept that anything is possible. I just told you why God cannot do everything because my God cannot do stupid
things. So he has some limitations. He only does godly thing. I'm sorry, sir, but your definition of strength.
Thank you, sir. The next question please.
greet you all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
I will ask Mr. Miller question.
First of all, how much were you paid to come down here?
I think Mr. Miller's that No, no, that you must have come in late. I explained that No, no, you did explain that. But I feel that something fishy about it because you let yourself down, as I told you in this lesson that nobody paid your fair. That's right. That's right. Seems like you're telling a lie. Okay. But you see, you're a liar. If your religion Name of the Lord Jesus Christ, if you're really if your religion permits you to call a man a liar without proof. That's to your shame. My religion doesn't permit me to call a man a liar unless I bring the proof. Right.
Thank you. Thank you, anyone who, who has a question to us on the merits of the discussion, please pose your questions. You are excused, sir, the next person will now ask his question.
I'm sorry, sir, you forfeited your right to ask a question. Will the next person please pose his question?
Will you please remain silent Ladies and gentlemen, this is important. You, you will have an opportunity if there is time remaining. Will you please now allow the next person to ask the question.
Is it a question on the merits of the discussion? Or is it some defamatory statement which you intend to make? Yes, please restrict yourself to the merits of the discussion fine. Yes, go ahead and ask your question.
if I had to take an orange
and in front of you peel this orange and slowly cut it into many pieces. And then I take this orange, and I slowly eat this orange piece by piece. And eventually when the orange has been eaten and ask you a question, Mr. Miller. How does that orange taste? What would you tell me?
You tell me if you eat an orange. Yes. And then you ask me how did it taste? Yes. Yes, that's right. I can tell you how most oranges taste, but I have no idea how the one tasted that you ate? That's right. That's right, Mr. Miller. You haven't tasted Jesus Christ. You see, but you haven't experienced the power of the Holy Spirit. You haven't experienced the power of the Holy Spirit and the new birth of Jesus Christ.
Are you finished with your question? We're going to give another lecture because if you want to give a lecture, we'll come and hear you sometime. But this was supposed to be a question period.
Do you ask the question I gave you an answer.
Friend, you. You asked a question I gave you my answer. If you say you have experienced the power of Jesus Christ, God bless you. That is your business. You see, is he that that is that is your That's right. That is your business.
I understand. I'm not a child, I understand your point. I just said if you have sampled this wonderful power and so on, that is your business. It's not something you can give me. God has to give it to me. Okay? So don't Don't tell me you're gonna, you're gonna save me somehow. Because if God gave you this thing that's between you and God, be my guest.
Thank you, sir. Next question. Greetings, brothers and sisters in the lovely name of Jesus Christ this evening.
When I seen the advert in the newspaper concerning
our friend, Mr. deedat. And, Mr. Miller, I read about divinity being confirmed today in this auditorium as it were.
Sorry for being late. I've been busy at church services. But this is one thing that I would want to stress from Mr. Miller, that he has come to point out to people out here, the meaning of divinity. And what he has actually finished off with on the stage doesn't confirm anything as far as divinity is concerned to me.
And I would want to live with him is this only just one thing? If he cannot believe that God can be doing everything at the same time, if I can operate three different jobs at the very same time, I can kick I can punch. I can smile. I am human. My God can do much more than that. Because he's divine. Thank you, my friend. God bless you. Thank you. Do you have a question? One question to Mr. deedat. When you die, where are you going?
By the grace of God,
I believe that will go in heaven.
The next questioner, please. Would you please take your seat, sir, the next person to the mic.
Mr. Miller, for the benefit of most of the Christian people here, I'd like to ask you a simple question. Are you a Christian or a Muslim?
I thought I made that clear by what I was summing up by, you see names like Jews, the meaning is one who praises God Jew, I'm a Jew, I praise God. But I'm not capital G w means I'm an Israeli citizen or something Jew and the meaning. Christian is not a Christ given name. Jesus never said call yourself Christian. That was a nickname that was given years after his time. But if by Christian, you mean one who follows Christ, I am a Christian. In the same way, Muslim is not a label that means you're an Arab or something. Muslim is one who submits his will to God.
I'm a Muslim, I submit my will to God. If you want to say your salvation belongs according to some label. I'm sure you don't, you're more sensible than that, I'm sure but if you say your label belongs to something, you fall into this trap, as the Quran says, do they say they have a contract with God? So that their salvation happened at this time? Nevermind, they live for 40 more years, their salvation happened at this time.
I believe you struggle till the day you die. Any day, any given day someone can say, what's your standing if you were to die right now? Are you ready to meet God? Yeah, I know whether I am or not. But I can't say and the week from Tuesday, I am still saved. I don't know till a week from Tuesday, because I'm struggling and fighting with it. Until that day. That is a large difference between kinds of people who grab labels, or say I have my salvation already. And other people who are not so quick with the labels and say, my salvation, I'm working on it. I'm gonna work on it till the day I die.
In other words, you are a Muslim? I happen to be Muslim. Yes. Happy to be Muslim. Thank God, you have a similar?
Yes, sir, your question? My question is this. When I'm asking a question, please don't put the mic off. Because this is what you did in the city hall. If you want to answer a question, you answer it full. So when they tell you praise the Lord, before I start my question, hallelujah, glory to His name. What I want to ask you is this, it has been mentioned from the platform that are all are born Muslims, I want you to prove that I'm a born Muslim.
If you can understand what I mean by Muslim, the demonstration is there. You could study it. And there's more books on the subject than you could read? Do you want the answer or not? My wife can prove it to you. I am not Yvonne must? Do you want proof or not? You asked me for proof? Do you want proof or not? Do you want proof or not? You asked me for proof. Now, as soon as out my mouth, you tell me I'm not. If you want proof, I'll give it to you if you be quiet.
The proof is what you will find if you investigate. What do people believe? If no one comes and tells them what to believe? If you want to read the documentation of cases of people like the capoue tribe of Papua, who never met civilized men till the 1920s. If you want to read the documentation of what did the aborigines of Australia believe, before the white man came there, and so on, if you want to read the documented belief, what did they believe before someone came and told them what to believe? You will find it is Islam in everything but name because they don't speak Arabic. They don't say Islam. The religion is the same. God is one he has no sons. He's not subject to aging and
so on and so on and so on. The proof is there.
Can I ask him? No, I'm afraid you can't. Sir.
Are there any others?
Sir, there is a limited there is a limited time. There is a limited time. Are there any other questions?
Are there any other questions?
It is the prerogative of anyone who wants to express their opinion to invite either of the speakers to a debate and then to exercise their rights to express their opinions. You are now availed of the opportunity of asking questions on the basis of the discussions presented. If people do not persist engineering, lawful joke, wasting time basically at the mic. I think fruitful and important questions will be passed through from which people can learn. Ladies and gentlemen, this is an Assembly of God. We are discussing divine issues, important issues intrinsic to our lives. Those who possess engineering and love, to say the least, absolutely unstable. Would you please
Ask your question, sir. I have a few questions. This is about three questions, but those with the mic off, unfortunately. So we have only five minutes for questions in one minute. Yes, please, less than a minute.
The person came up here and said to me that also that you are going to urban.
Ahmed just said, the grace by the grace of God.
But the Bible tells me by the grace of God, I can live a holy life
by the blood of Jesus can take me to heaven. Thank you.
Do you want Mr. deedat? to comment on that? Yes. Ahmed said by the grace of God, he can go to heaven. Thou want to know out of the grace of God and dig into heaven. Here, sir. Mr. Dida? The question is, how can the grace of God transpose A person to heaven?
You know, this cop shows that you are displaying and the display of your fellow cultists there. You know, it amazes me that the Christian they were dragging their feet to get to the mic in the first instance. It's one by one, you're getting the courage to come along and waste our time you make misstatements and you want an answer.
I look, I am humble. I'm not I am not as arrogant. As cocksure. As the Jews were in the time of Jesus. You You have the privilege of being as arrogant as you like, I am humble. I believe in the grace of God. And on that strength. I have hope, that by God willing, I shall.
And the good pleasures of God. Did I did I condemn you
know that is you condemning yourself the way the arrogant stand in which you are standing now. And your fellow Christians there in that corner ready to run away? Look, look at them? Is this the way? Is this the way in our culture, people and Christian behave? Look at this. Look at the behavior is an absolute disgrace and born again Christians? Yes, my friend. If you have a question, please ask your question. Because yours will be the last question. Thank you. Mr. deedat. We have just three minutes left, ladies and gentlemen, sufficient time for just one more question. Thank you, Chairman.
I'm a bit intrigued. But things are here this evening, or this afternoon, rather. But I'm absolutely convinced very true that what I in fact, the truth, whether it's from the Christian side or the Islamic side. But what I would like to get clarification on is, is it possible for God to turn into a man physical blood, bones and
blood vessels? They said a perfect human being died 2000 years ago, from our sins. 2000 years later,
I seemed utterly illogical. If I could get a reasonable explanation. How is this possible? Do you direct the question to Mr. Miller? So Mr. deedat, or listen to both the speakers have been telling the truth show either the one or the other one? Can you please answer? And this this will be the last answer. Ladies and gentlemen, we don't have more time for any further questions. You're asking me? Is it possible to become a man died for my sins and I can still benefit? 2000 years later? You're asking the wrong person? I mean, ask a Christian. That's what he believes. I have reason not to say so I can't really defend that idea. Because I don't believe it. Okay. I don't believe that
someone died for my sins becomes a hypothetical question. It's like people saying, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? I don't know. I'm not gonna worry myself over. You see, since I don't believe somebody died for my sins, I'm not going to try and defend the belief of those who do. They may have their defense and believe me, I've heard them all. And they haven't convinced me yet. So how can I offer you something as a?
For we have fortunately, just one minute, I think we'll entertain just one more question.
Can we have some? Okay, Mr. Miller.
Many Christians have attended this meeting under the impression that this was going to be a normal type of symposium organised by the IPC, where you have a Christian who puts forth his point of view and ethnicity that puts forward the Islamic point of view. Now, I'm sure after your speech, more Christians are as confused as ever. For the sake of clarity. Could you tell us clearly without perambulating as to whether you are a Christian or a Muslim, by Christian I mean, one who recognizes the Lordship of Jesus over his life, or Muslim who does not recognize Jesus as Lord, but as one of the prophets and as a practicing Muslim who follows him
You trying to you may as well ask me, will I stop beating my wife? Yes or no? What I go, how do you marry a Muslim? You said, Are you a Christian meaning you acknowledge Jesus as Lord? Or are you a Muslim and you don't acknowledge Jesus as Lord Jesus is Lord, and I'm a Muslim saying that he's Lord, and so is according to the Bible, Abraham, it says Sara, because she was a good wife called her husband, Lord, whatever you mean by Lord, maybe something else. But I don't hesitate to call him Lord, if You mean Master, teacher, and so on. Yes, he was, by all means.
by Lord, I guess you mean God in the flesh, and so on? And still, I've tried to tell you, you have to tell me what you mean by that? If you mean was Jesus God, as many Christians are now saying, they say, Jesus is God, when you ask them, What do you mean? They say he was God's chief spokesman. If you spit in Jesus face, it's the same as spitting in God's face. I agree with that. No problem.
You can if that's the sense, you mean, he's God's chief representative Jesus had who honors me honors God, no problem. But if you mean, I don't know what you mean. Do you mean his fingernails? They were divine when he cut them? And he buried them? They were pieces of God? I don't know. What do you mean? See?
The way do you acknowledge Jesus as Lord of your life?
Any prophet is Lord of my life in that if I find out this is something he used to do then, and he offered it as a command that I should do it, then I will do it. I don't have anything I'm doing that or not doing the Jesus said I should do. Okay.
Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.
Or as you've just beaten the band, just one more question.
Thank you very much. I picked one of you, everyone yet this evening, in a precious lot of precious name of our Lord and Savior. Well, I must say that I enjoyed the discussion. We know that we are confronted yet today by a Christian Christian denomination and a Muslim. But as human beings, I would like to also put a question forward, we know that, Mr. Mr. malla, that we know that our lifespan we've got, has got to end, we know that after after this life on Earth, we've got to go somewhere else, we do believe that.
We will, I would like to know, from my belief, which says that, except a man be born again, he cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Now I don't want to just live young, and then die and my life is finish. We believe in our soul, we're going to enter I would like you to do explain on that demonstrated
on those terms, except a man be born again, you can't inherit the kingdom of God, we believe that the same God has created You created me. So I would like to know my escape my choice as a sinner. Fine. If you're if you're saying Am I born again. You see,
the words born again are in the Bible. It's a mis translation, you know that as well as I do the words in the Greek say, generated from above. Now, if you call it born again, that's fine, that it's close enough, literally like this, or just be like, let's take it slowly, literally, it says in the original text, as some Bibles translated, unless a man be generated from above. Now, some people right born again, the real meaning generated from above, I am generated from above I believe, because I didn't know what to do, then God showed me what to do. So I was born again I was generated from above. All right, thank you, sir. does it know that distinguish between a cinnamon and a
righteous man, of course, one man is off into the road to destruction and the other man is going on the straight path is on his own accord? Cannot BORN AGAIN experience be possible?
it comes from God, how can it be on your own accord man, Praise the Lord.
If we believe in God, we shall enter the kingdom of God.
Only one way we can go through God isn't is a Yes, of course. But it's just what a person should worry about is that it's reported Jesus said in Matthew chapter seven, many people will come to me on that day and say, Master, we used to do wonderful things in your name. And he said, I will tell him get away from me. I never knew you now. That's the books. Yes, yes, sure. But these people are saying, you know, we did wonderful things. So what I'm saying is every one who says he's born again, that's not a magic ticket. He may not know what he's talking about. That's right. So
I'd like to just enclose. Thank you. So
the mic please, gentlemen, Mr. Leader, as we know, we might have been on different denominations. But let's face it, the most important thing is that, as we know that your aim is to warn us of people to move on to the Muslim faith, just like the Christian
People because we believe that we all want we have one aim, isn't it sir to inherit the kingdom of God
the belief is there. But we can suffer from hallucinations. You see people thinking that they are on the right fact, they are actually disobeying the laws and commandments of God into the worshiping God, they're worshipping a created being a creature born in this table to a Jewish girl. Now you say he is your God. So for that, we say that you're going to go to hell, there is no way out for you, because you are now conferring divinity upon a human being, and this human being never claimed to be God. You see, this human being was born in this table 2000 years ago, in this table, he was circumcised on the eighth day, he used to drink milk from his mother's breast, he used to witness
I can see, look, you have been agreeing with the speaker all along, I was watching you, you were agreeing, agreeing all along. But somehow at the back of the mind, there is another type of, you know, cultivation, which is making you to, to to think that you have got the right road, but you are my child on the wrong road. You see, Jesus Christ never said his word. Nowhere. Nor did he say, worship me anyway. So if you have a church, you know, if you have a church, your your minister, your father, your Bishop, asked him to organize a meeting, and we will come and listen to him. You see on all these things are different. And then we will question them, and I assure you, your Bishop or
your co will get cold feet, and he will never allow anybody to question that. There are Christian missionaries here. They won't deliver lectures, but they haven't got that courage and the conviction to allow the Muslims to question them, they want to push things down people's throats. Look, this we haven't done to you. We have given you a very fair opportunity, as you will acknowledge, but people have been dragging their feet to the mic that you will also agree, look, you should have been the first man, people have been dragging their feet. So look, you were there. People from the outside, they have been coming in, but it took you so long to come. You are the last man. May God bless you.
But now look what you do arrange a meeting, or a dialogue or a discussion or a debate. Go ahead and arrange it and we will come and meet you on your ground.
Thank you, sir. Ladies and gentlemen. Unfortunately, no time remains for questions. Thank you very much for attending. I'm sure we've all been enriched by our attendance here this evening. Thank you ladies and gents.