Channel: Adnan Rashid
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society are very, very, very pleased. You can all be with us here tonight, thank you ever so much hope you're enjoying the refreshments.
We have been very, very, very happy and excited to work with the Christian Union society. I mean fairborn been speaking about this event for a long time. And it's amazing that you actually came together. And it's actually a reality now rather than just an idea. Now, just a quick introduction of our guest speaker at Islamic sites we are hosting at nanosheet. Today, just a bit about him. For those of you who don't know, he is saurian with a speciality in the history of Islamic civilization, comparative religion and literature. He has an honors degree in the history from the University of London, he has debated many high profile figures in the field of politics, history, and Christian
and Islamic theology. And he's also represented Islam and Muslims on the number on a number of reputable media platforms such as BBC. So without further ado, I'll pass it on to him in a second after February introduces Glenn.
Thank you very much. Somalia is critical and the president of the Christian Union, I'm so glad that this is happening as well. We, myself and Aspen took my this for a while, as you said, I'm just so glad that it's actually become a reality. So I'm representing the Christian Union and the Christian view of who Jesus is. We have Glenn Scribner tonight. Glenn is a minister in the Church of England, and he's based in Eastbourne. He's also an evangelist, he works with speak life, which is a ministry, an evangelistic ministry that's been going on for many years. And he's also an author of one of his books, which is cool. It's three to one, the story of God, the world and you. And he's
also married to Emma, who's also an author, she's written a book called a new name, which is really good and blogs at the same title. And Glen is also a blogger at Christ the truth dotnet, an avid tweeter and lover of terrible puns. And he's also a poet and releases many spoken word poems, and videos for social media. So
we just wanted to say just before we go on with this evening, that this is not a debate that we're hosting, with two arguments, fighting against one another. So in that sense, there will be no person coming out as saying that there's a winner, or anything like that, or someone coming out where we'll be voting on who you think it would be anything like that. The reason we're doing this is so that we can learn who Jesus is in Islam and Christianity. So we can learn more about one another. Because I think it's probably many of us have misunderstandings or might not know, or might be, in honest interest wanting to find out more. So that's why we've put this on. So we're going to have our
speakers come up into 20 minutes each on who Jesus is, and Islam first, and then Christianity. So Adam will come up first, followed by Glenn. After that, we'll have a time of questions and answers, as well. And during the q&a, we'll be asking for any questions that are relevant to the topic and who Jesus is in Islam and Christianity. And you can either do that by putting up your hands and shouting out the answer, and then we'll repeat it. Or there are some pieces of paper on the table. On the third option, there'll be a phone number on the screen behind us, which you can text your questions into if you want to remain anonymous. So I think that's everything from setting up this
evening and introducing. So without further ado, can we have a massive bank applause
Salam, ala rasulillah. Ladies and gentlemen, brothers and sisters, the offense.
May, peace and blessings of God be upon you all.
I am standing in front of you with a very bad throat and almost
some sort of temperature. I don't know what the temperature is. I was in Pakistan yesterday in the streets of Moscow if you believe it or not.
And I was visiting a book market. I'm a book collector.
And there was a lot of dust, a lot of dust and a lot of noise and I got stuck in traffic there and I thought
In that sense is a very, very nice place.
But today when I got stuck in traffic again,
it reminded me of a shower yesterday, so I was stuck in traffic do apologize for the delay. The topic today is a very interesting one indeed I have been addressing this topic for for the past seven to eight years almost.
And it is, I think one of the most important topics this particular topic can potentially unite the majority of humanity.
The status of Jesus, for the mind, Jesus is
a point of contention between two Abrahamic faiths.
Not necessarily a point of
instigating some kind of aggression or some kind of,
hostility, rather than
the point that Jesus existed and preach to his people in Palestine, and was a prophet of God is something the Christians and the Muslims are united upon.
This is what both groups believe, and who are the Christians Christians are. If we put the Protestants and the Catholics together, they are the majority in the world, one the majority religion.
And if we put Muslims, Christians,
Catholics and Protestants together, then we have almost almost possibly half of humanity. Right?
So Jesus is the point where we disagree.
way we've had
many problems in the past.
Two reasons crusades occurred in the Middle Ages.
Were directly connected to this personality called Jesus, Jesus Christ.
Pope and the second, in the year 1195, in a place called Clermont delivered a speech and we have four versions of that speech.
And all four versions, if I'm not mistaken, are unanimous on one point that Muslims are persecuting Christians in Palestine.
Hence, therefore, we have to go and liberate the Holy Land from
It is very obvious historically, for bourbon, the second was mistaken, he was simply not telling the truth. And for the next two centuries, we had wars called crusades,
which continued according to most estimates, until the year 1291,
for almost two centuries of conflict, because of some religious misunderstandings or differences, so why don't we, as humans,
study the life of Jesus carefully and understand David historically, in the light of historical evidence, and see where he fits, or what picture is more representative of truth, rather than following emotions and our backgrounds, I was born a Muslim in a Muslim family, I can easily turn around say, I follow the Muslim view, because I feel more comfortable with it. I saw my mother and my father, you know, praying and fasting in the Motherland, Milan, and he celebrates, and I am very happy with that I'm very comfortable with that culture. So I don't have to study anything. I'm fine with it. Christians on the other hand, can also claim that they are very happy with their culture,
the Christmas and the turkey on 25th of December every year, and the light and the songs are beautiful, amazing. We love the cathedrals Actually, I saw Salisbury Cathedral Cathedral today it is an amazing place to visit.
one can feel some sense of attachment to that culture and never
proceed or never make progress into study. People like Jesus Christ.
Once we understand Jesus clearly, perfectly, or in the light historical evidence, picture can become very, very clear. Unfortunately, we do not have much historical evidence on the life of Jesus Christ. Of course, Christians may disagree, but this is what my view as a historian is. And in fact from the Christian historian, Christian theologians also believe there is a man called James D. Dunn, who has taught at the University of Durham, who is considered to be a
authority and patristic history, the history of early Christian centuries, in particular, the first three centuries, he stated in one of his works not very long ago that there is nothing we know of Jesus except that he was a Jewish man who preached to his people in the land of Palestine. Full stop.
So this is all we know about a man called Jesus historically.
So most Christian historians and Christian theologians do not consider
gospels to be historical evidence for historical writings. Rather, these are writings of a theological form. And likewise, Quran is not considered to be a historical source by historians. The Quran is a theological text, which has a metaphysical view in it. It's how the philosophy and philosophy of God, how to believe in God, how to worship Him, how to follow Him, it cannot be strictly speaking, taken as a source of history. Historians don't take it as a source of history. For example, Quran mentions Abraham, Moses mentioned, David and Solomon and we simply do not have any historical evidence when I say stoical evidence, I mean, physical material, empirical evidence
for the existence of ever, we have no evidence for the existence of Moses, we have no historical empirical evidence for the existence of even Jesus, we do have our evidence for the existence of Muhammad, no doubt, no serious historian doubts the existence of Prophet Muhammad, and his companions, and what happened subsequently in Islamic history.
So what are we left with on Jesus Christ? What is the Islamic view? Amazingly, whatever the Quran claims,
almost six centuries after Jesus Christ appeared in Palestine, seems to fit into the historical picture. Whatever we know of history, we know that there was a Jewish man called
or Jesus as He was known later on.
He lived in the first century in Palestine, and he preached to his people. And most historians believe that he was crucified because of the story that came to be known or that became prevalent later on in the second century. This is what was known of him, but we do not have any contemporary sources of Jesus Christ, nothing from his contemporaries. Even the four gospels present a picture that that kind of developed later on.
So how do we know who Jesus is?
that Jesus was a prophet of God,
and He preached to his people, and he only came for the house of Israel. He only preached to the house of Israel, he did not come for the Gentiles. This is very clear.
He did not claim to be God. He never claimed to be God Wallah. To the contrary, he condemned according to the Quran, anyone who believed for imaginary God.
For example, chapter five, verse 72, to 75, we have three verses that give us a picture of as to what Jesus might have claimed, according to the Quran, the Quran stays out of the regime,
while Allah mercy Yamani is riding
stage and I will translate that the Messiah and the Quran also confirms that Jesus was the Promised Messiah. He was the Promised Messiah, the Jews were waiting for the Jews rejected him. Obviously, we know from history that the Jews claimed to have crucified Him or killed him or played a role in
his alleged execution, which took place in the first century. And this claim is to be found in the Talmud in the Jewish commentary on the oral tradition called Misha. So the Jews have two traditions. One is the Torah or the books, which is the Old Testament, more or less. And then there is an old tradition called missionary, which comes from the elders like we have the upper arm and we have the Hadees which is the oral tradition, which explains the puram Likewise, the Jewish tradition has similar sources. So Misha is your source and already, you know, transmitted from man to man.
And then there was a commentary written on
Afterwards on a call the Talmud, which explains the Mishnah. And the Talmud, there are claims that there was a man called Jesus who was,
excuse me, a bastard child, Mary was an unchaste, a woman, and she had sex with a Roman soldier and Jesus was conceived and she claimed that he was born Virgin and he was killed, because he was alive. And this was the claim the Jews were he was killed because he was alive. And this issue has been discussed by many academics. There are books written on this topic. And this is one of the reasons why Jews were heavily persecuted. throughout the Middle Ages in Europe. They were accused of di fi.
Sorry, di site, they were accused of di side, which means killing God. Okay, so they were being accused of killing God. That's why they were heavily persecuted, and then found refuge with the Muslims in London last in Islamic Spain, and in the Middle East.
So the point is Islam or the Quran claims that Jesus was the Messiah who was promised, and for that reason he could not have been killed. If the Messiah was killed, he failed to do his job.
And this is exactly the Jews were using against the Christians to reject Jesus, that he the fact that he was killed on the cross, which is a sign of defeat, which is a sign of,
you know, some sort of
inferiority in terms of us he was simply an imposter. In other words, they said, the fact that he was crucified proves that he was an imposter. But God Almighty, as we Muslims believe in the Quran says no, he was not killed. He was not crucified, robbery depicted themselves. This is what they thought what happened. And this is what the story, this is what happened later on, people started to believe that he was actually crucified, and then he rose from dead. And then he ascended to the heavens. This is what the people came to believe. And this is what they wrote. And this is what was transmitted to the later generations. But this didn't actually happen.
Now, you may think, how is that possible that people can believe all this without from rounds in, in reality? Well, we all believed at one point that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction.
We did. And later on, it was made clear, because we have the technology and the means to know today as to what the reality was, we came to realize that that wasn't true. But in the in the early centuries, you know, dissent was dealt with, very
severely. So there were other views on Jesus Christ in the second century, and the main church that had decided that Jesus did die on the cross, and he paid for our sins, according to the theology of Paul, we must uphold that view. And anyone who disagreed with that view was dealt with severely.
So coming back to the
claim that Jesus was the Messiah total, these people will call it a mercy. But yeah, bunnies, right? Oh, the children of Israel.
Worship one God, worship one God, who is my God and your God.
And anyone who strives partners with a
will not find a helper, but not find any helper, because this is the most devastating form of injustice, to ascribe partners as God to make someone God who is not actually God. And this is very, very clear, even in the Gospel in the Gospel of Mark chapter 12, verse 29, we read that when a Jewish man came to Jesus Christ and asked him, Master, what is the first commandment, and Jesus responded very confidently here, O Israel, the Lord, our God is one God, the famous Shema, from the book of Genesis. This is the Jewish formula, the Jewish formula, there is no one else by God alone who deserves to be worshipped. So worship God, with all our mind with all the art with all thy soul.
This God told him, that if Jesus was himself a trainee, you know, a Trinitarian, who believed in the doctrine of the Trinity, or he believed that I am God in flesh. This was the point for him to change what the Jews had been believing for the past centuries, Jews never believed in a trinity. They never ever believed in the doctrine of the Trinity.
This one is chance to tell the Jewish man, hold on a second. You have been believing for those years for all the centuries, that there is only one God
Who is the Father,
and He alone deserves to be worshipped, and he's the first one. And there is no one else beside him. According to the book of Isaiah, chapter 44, verse six, it is in the books of the Old Testament, now things are changed, I have brought a new message for you guys. Now, there are three, you worship in one, there is one being
with God, and this one being is divided in three persons, or this one being manifests itself in three persons. And who are these three persons, the Father, the Son, which is me, and the Holy Ghost, the spirit.
So now you must worship me. He didn't say that.
He said that to the Jewish man.
Because this Jewish man was not a Trinitarian.
And the fact that Jesus did not tell him, that he was God in flesh, says a lot.
And on top of that, the Jewish man having heard this, the famous Shema, he responds, safe. Naturally, you have spoken the truth, there is no one else beside him. Who is the Jewish man talking about? He's talking, he's talking about strictly the father, one person.
So the Quranic view is very consistent with what we find the story ugly, and we'll be fine even in the New Testament, as well as the Old Testament
as to where the Trinity came from is another question altogether,
actually addresses the point directly.
The Quran says in chapter four, verse 171,
and God is speaking,
is telling Mohammed to speak to his people.
Oh, Muhammad said,
all the people of scriptures are in the Jews and Christians law
do not transgress the limits in your religions.
And do not say about God accept the truth. And then it goes on to explain who Jesus is. He was a messenger of God, he was a man. And he and his mother never claimed to be divine.
And then it says, wala Taku Salah, do not say three.
It is better for you not to say three. Why? Not? Amazingly, the Quran uses a very, very specific language. It says do not say three you do the Trinity. He says,
Do not say three. Now why did the Quran use this term three instead of the Trinity, or the fleece, what we call in Arabic. The fact that the Christians came to believe in the doctrine of the Trinity in the second and the third in the fourth century, is a very interesting in our reality. Different Christian groups believed in the doctrine of the Trinity differently in different places, for example, they're different Christians had a different view on the doctrine of the Trinity. some minor Christian groups even believe that instead of the Holy Ghost is Mary, who is part of the Trinity.
And others believes that there is only a pirate a biology, not Trinity. So the creed of Nicea in the year 325 seas actually, essentially a military and creed. The Holy Spirit is not mentioned as God, the Holy Spirit only came to be mentioned as God in the 381 CD in the Council of Constantinople. And the status of Holy Spirit was undecided. Origin writing in the third century, you know, he writes that we simply do not know what the Holy Spirit is, we must conduct a more careful study of the Scriptures to understand the status of the Holy Spirit.
So the Quran is very clear on that point, that Jesus never claimed to be God, he was the Messiah, he was a miracle of God rather in chapter 19, we are told,
which is named after his mother, Mary, there is no chapter on the name of Muhammad's mother, who was known as homina. There is no chapter in her name. There is an entire chapter in law,
named after the mother of Jesus Mary in this chapter, and I'm fishing right and my time is up.
In this chapter,
God Almighty, according to Muslim do, tells us the story of how Jesus was conceived. His conception was miraculous.
And the fact that some people claim that Jesus was born miraculously that's what is special and hence divine. Even that question is addressed in chapter two
Verse 59, that the similitude of Jesus is like that of Adam.
Both did not have fathers,
and one had mother. And that was Jesus did not have a father did not have a mother.
And then God wants a magic to be, he simply says Be and it becomes. So the final point that Jesus spoke from cradle according to the Quran, he spoke from cradle, when his mother came with him in her arms to people, they said, Mary, we knew you as a chaste woman, coming from a good family, we did not expect this from you. And she simply points to the child, according to chapter 19. And people are shocked.
The child infant is good. So he speaks from the cradle. He says, I am a slave of God, who has been appointed, and I'm a sign of God. And I will remain silent in the Day of Judgment.
I have been made a beat into my mother, and the list goes on. So he's talking and how is he assigned to make the final point according to the Muslim eschatology, Jesus will return near the end of times, and he will fix the record, he will put the record straight. And he will descend in Damascus with two angels, when water will be dripping from his curly hair. And he will be dressed in
you know, in a in a role, and he will come and fight the Antichrist, but the job why we descend in Syria in Damascus, why he will fight antichrist in Jerusalem. Our questions very, very interesting, which we can discuss in the q&a. Thank you so much for listening. That was the Muslim beauty lecture.
Thank you so much for that.
And we're gonna hand over to Glenn who is going to come up and present from a Christian perspective, who is Jesus in Christianity. So if you'd like to come up and get ready
Thank you. Thank you so much for coming along. I have been looking forward to this for a very long time and looking forward to meeting online and and the rest of you and thank you so much the Islamic Society for putting on the refreshments. We really do appreciate that. You've done us proud. So thank you very much.
what do we know about Jesus Adnan said that, historically, we don't know very much at all about Jesus Christ, I'd like to challenge that quite seriously. I, I would put forward the 27 books of the New Testament, written in the same culture as Jesus Christ in the same century as Jesus Christ by people who claim to be eyewitnesses of the things that they spoke off. You might think that they are biased, but all historical historiography is in fact biased because it's all written by people from a certain perspective. So we've got these 27 different books, all of which speak of Jesus as a first century Jew as someone who claimed to be the Christ, the Son of God, as someone who won a great
following as someone who caused a disturbance in the temple area of Jerusalem in 30 ad, as someone who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and who, three days later is claimed by his followers, was seen again alive and the body was never found. Those are not simply the truths that are attested to in the 27 books of the New Testament, you'll find those truths throughout the ancient first century documents, we can go to figures like Dallas or Lucien of Santa SOTA, or Mara bar serapion, or flagon, or tacitus, or plenty or Celsius. Or we could go to Jewish authors like Josephus. Or we could go to the targums, as well, and to the Talmud, and we could learn about who Jesus is from
these figures who are in the first and second centuries, around the time of Jesus in the culture of Jesus. And I think we have strong reasons for believing their testimony to Jesus, rather than the Quranic testimony that comes over half a millennium later. So we do know a very great deal about who Jesus is, I just want to spend a few minutes introducing you to who Jesus is from one of the eyewitness accounts in the Gospels. And we'll just think about who is Jesus from John's Gospel, but beloved disciple of Jesus is the one who is writing and certainly in the first and second centuries, no one was any in any doubts about who the authors were, it might not have been written at the top
of the manuscripts, as
They were circulating. But everybody knew that Max was by Matthew, that Mark was by Mark Lucas by Luke and john was by john. But here is john, beginning his biography of Jesus, I wonder where you would think to begin a biography of somebody. Usually, if we're doing a biography of somebody like Winston Churchill or something you might begin with his parents, you might begin with his grandparents, perhaps where does john begin, john begins, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, he was with Gods. In the beginning. JOHN says that, to understand Jesus, you don't just need to understand his parents or his grandparents, you need to
understand all of reality. You need to understand the beginning of the universe. And I hope you know that the Christian claim is not that Jesus founded a religion, a Christian claim is that Jesus founded the universe. And john, in order to speak to us in his biography of Jesus says, In the beginning, was the word and he casting our minds back to Genesis actually not know the first chapter of the Hebrew Scriptures. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. How did God create the heavens and the earth? In Genesis chapter one, if you read through, you'll see. And God said, and it was so And God said, and it was so and God say, and how does God create through His
Word exclusively through His Word, and john speaks of Jesus being the very word of gods. Well think about that. And what that means as we go on. But it is very interesting that in the Quran, as well, Isa is called a word from Allah is called that in Surah, four 171, has already been quoted, and also surah three, verse 45, Jesus has called a word from Allah, the claim is stronger in the Bible, the claim is that he is the word of God, the Word of the Father, that means he is the expression of God's, the communication of God, the revelation of God, from the very beginning, the living God has always been an expressive, communicative, speaking, revealing God. And Jesus is that the expression,
he is that outgoing nature of who God is, I think every Muslim should have this understanding the same that Christians do. There's a strong tradition in Islamic theology, as well as in Christian theology, about divine simplicity. Some of you might know, some of the works of the great Muslim or Christian theologians who spoke about the simplicity of God that God does not really possess attributes, as though he has a little bit of wisdom over here, and a little bit of power over here. The tradition both in Islam and Christianity is that God is His attributes. He does not merely possess wisdom, Revelation, power, those sorts of things, he is those things. And within Islamic
theology, there's a very strong doctrine that God's word possesses all the properties of God Himself, and God is never without His Word, and the Word is never without God. It's the same in Christianity. We don't understand that God could be thought of apart from his word, we don't believe in a minute God. And we don't believe that God's word can be considered apart from Gods it is inseparable. And so from the very beginning, Christians have always said, God has been an expressive speaking kind of God, who has always had a word always had an outgoing communication. And that is who we think Jesus is. So this is our job begins in the beginning was the Word, the Word was with
God, and the Word was God, he was with God. In the beginning, you see this, the inseparable unity between God who was about to be called the Father, and the word was about to be called the Son. That is how John's Gospel begins. It goes up through him, all things were made, and without him, nothing was made that has been made. So through God's word the universe was made. And again, we get the sense that there is not God over here and his word over here there is one life there is one being there is one effusive reality to God's who is always at going, and this outgoing God has said, this thing is too good to keep to ourselves. Let's spread. Let's share let's have a creation and through
the word God has created all things. Next verse says this, he says, speaking about God's word, In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. So here we've got this idea that
Jesus is not simply like the word who is expressing the communication of God. He is also likened to light, who radiates out the shining God. And again, this is a big theme within the New Testament. You could go to somewhere like Hebrews chapter one, which is
ascribed to Jesus in verse three as he is the radiance of God's glory, and the exact representation of his being, the radiance of God's glory, the exact representation of his being. And again, Christians are very careful to say there is not to be there is not a God who is light, and then a radiant who is a different being over here, I look at the lights at the back of this room. And in order to see the light that is shining, my eye is traveling upon the light beam, and the radiance of that light is revealing to me that light itself and the radiance and the lights are inseparable. In the very same way, the father is the glorious shining, effusive, outgoing being and Jesus is of one
being that Father, he is that radiant life. He is what God's life is like when it needs us. That's who Jesus is very important, because I know that my Muslim friends are very careful not to multiply the beings of God. You know, nobody wants to have two different bands of God, three different beings of God. And Christians, two are very careful to say none, there is not three B's to go, there is one way, who is a father ever shining the light of his son out into the world, and that's who Jesus is, according to the Bible. So if this is all true, if this is all true that Jesus is the outgoing Word of God, who reveals who God is, you might have a question. And the question might run something like
this. What about the Old Testament? What about before Christmas? What about before Jesus came to planet earth? How on earth could people know Gods before Jesus came into Planet Earth? and john has thought of that? And he finishes this prologue to his gospel by saying this john chapter one, verse 18, no one has ever seen God, but God, the one and only who was at the farthest side has made him know anyone who has ever known God, according to the Bible has known them through knowing Christ, Christ is the word of God, and to know God, we know God through Christ. Therefore, how does Adam and Eve know God? Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob know God? How does Moses know God? They know him through
knowing Christ. And it's very interesting as we work our way back through the Old Testament, we see that actually, the Word of God is a great figure within the Old Testament. In Genesis chapter three, verse eight, we're in the Garden of Eden here. And it says that the voice of the Lord God was walking in the garden. Who is it? Who is walking with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden? We know from john chapter one verse it no one has ever seen God, but God, the one and only who is that the Father side, he has made him know there's always been a father revealing Himself through His Son, a speaker always revealing Himself through His Word, Christ. And here we see the word of God, the pre
incarnate Christ in the garden. Genesis chapter 15. How does Abraham know God? Genesis 15, verses one to six we meet this ticket called the word of the Lord appeared to Abraham. The word of the Lord actually takes Abraham outside and takes him stargazing and promises him things. And Abraham trusts in this figure called the word of the Lord, who is also called the Lord. He is of the Lord, and He is the Lord. And his title is the word Abraham trusts in this figure, and He is credited with righteousness. It's a wonderful moment in Scripture. And the rest of the Bible points back to this moment and says, fantastic. This is what Christians are always about trusting in the word, the one
who is of the Lord, and who is the Lord and when you trusted him, you are counted righteous. In the very next chapter of Genesis, we meet the same person under a new title, the title of the messenger of gods, the Malacca game, or the Moloch yawei, the Messenger of the Lord sometimes known as the angel of the Lord. But it's very obvious as you read through every instance of the angel of the Lord in the Scriptures, that we are not dealing with a creature. Because this messenger of the Lord is revelation of God is someone who speaks in such exalted tons about himself. And the Scripture speaks in such exalted times about this Moloch Yahweh, this messenger of God. So in Genesis chapter 16, the
angel of the Lord amalaki, the Messenger of God, mixed with Hagar, and she calls him You are the God of seeing I have now seen the God who sees me. And this one who is of the Lord is also called the Lord. In Genesis 16. He is the Lord and He is the Lord and he's called the malloc which literally means the cent one, the one who is sent from God and yet he is given the
Find titles in Genesis 32. That's you know this the story of Genesis wrestling with Jacob.
Jacob wrestling with God, how much time have I got?
left? Plenty of time. Okay, so Jacob wrestling with God, have you ever read that story too? That's that's really odd, isn't it? Especially because of john chapter one goes, I think in john chapter one, verse 18. It says, No one has ever seen God. But the one and only God who is at the father's side, he's always made him known. So who is Jacob wrestling with? Actually, Hosea knew all about this in Hosea chapter 12. He refers back to this incident, and he says, Jacob wrestled with the angel, the angel.
Now in the Bible, there are lots of there are lots of creatures called angels, lots of lots of creaturely angels, but there is one who is the angel, the messenger, the one sent from God's who is if you like God, from God's likes from lions, very good from very good. It's the language of the creator of the fourth century AD. But it's all throughout the scriptures bc as well. Exodus chapter three, we're at the burning bush, who was in the burning bush, the burning bush is very important in the Quran isn't it's mentioned
nine times as the figure coming to America could be corrected later. But it's mentioned a lot the burning bush and the relationship between Moses and see some kind of apparition of the Lord somehow. And off he goes and and redeems Israel, who is in the burning bush, no one has ever seen God at a time who's in the burning bush. And actually, he introduced he is introduced in Exodus chapter three, verse two as the messenger of the Lord, the malatya, away the one sent from the Lord. And he's also described as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and He is the Lord and He calls himself I am who I am.
Here we've got the Lord from Lord God, from God light from light. This is a fairly Hebrew doctrine. In Exodus chapter 23, we even learn about how this message of the Lord goes with the Israelites and leads them out of Egypt and through the wilderness to the promised land. And the Lord says, Don't rebel against the messenger of the Lord, because my name is enemy. And if you rebel against him, he will not forgive your sins. Who can forgive sins but come along.
And yet there is this understanding, even within the Old Testament that there is the one sent from the Lord in whom is the name of the Lord and to reject it is to reject forgiveness. So thoroughly Hebrews doctrine of God, Judges, chapter two, the angel of the Lord stands up and he says, I saved you from out of Egypt, any any claims, divine prerogatives of his own, perhaps you might know, a CS Lewis, that Christian apologist of last century, he had a great argument for the divinity of Christ. He said, when you look through the Gospels, you see Jesus making incredible claims about himself. He says things like, you know, I am the one grid of life without which you go hungry. I am the one
light of the world without which you are lost in the darkness. I'm the one way to God, I'm the one truth about reality, I am the one life that is really life, I am the father out one, I am older than the universe, I will judge the world. He makes these incredible claims and see it's no set. There's only three options when you look at him making those claims, either this guy is mad,
or he's bad. Or he's God. He's either insane for saying these things about himself. I've met many people. In fact, I've met three people to my say many three people who have claimed to be the Son of God, in my life, you won't be surprised to learn that all three of them were on the mental health wing of hospitals, when people make these kinds of claims, we generally think that they are not in a good place. When they make those claims. Jesus made those claims embarrassingly often. So what is he mad? Or is he bad if you're trying to deceive a soul? If he's not mad, and he's not bad? I don't know any other option than that. Maybe he's telling the truth. And if he's telling the truth, then
he does this word from the Father, this radiance of God's glory, this light from light this God from God,
that Christmas, will skip over God for actually, God from God. If you want to go to my, my blog, you can see I've just put up a post of 24 scriptures from the Old Testament that are really simple to see, in which you've got more than one person called Lord working in the same passage, and you cannot read them in unitary ways. It is impossible to read them in Unitarian ways. Was that three minutes left? Those are just a few but let's let's move on to Christmas. Tomorrow. I'm speaking on this very passage, Isaiah chapter nine. It's a wonderful Christmas passage. Those who are walking in darkness, I see
The great lights on those living in the land of the shadow of death, a light has dawned for as I nine but six says to us a child is born, to us a son is given and the government will be upon his shoulders and he shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. He is this messianic expectation that the child who is going to be born into this world is called mighty God. He is called mighty God. And there's this comfortability within the Jewish thought worlds that yes, the Messiah is God from God. Micah, chapter five, verse two, another great Christmas passage, but you definitely have Africa talking to the town. So you are small among the
clans of Judah, how have you all come from the one who will be ruler over Israel whose origins are from evolve from ancient times? Again, the understanding that the Messiah will not just be a figure from within history, but will have its origins from eternity. This is the understanding of the Messiah. And when you read the Second Temple Judaism, when you read the literature for most times, you see people who have absolutely exalted views of the Christ, the Son of God, who is the word of the Father, who is the high priest of all creation, who many people say in, in times in the first and second century BC, is the future of status. Now that the second God, now those are, those are
terms that actually Christians will kind of stand out because we don't think that they're actually different gods. But many, many Jews, just reading this literature just say
that there seems to be a lord who sends his light, His Word is true, who himself is filled with the name of the Lord, and has the divine properties of the Lord. There just seems to be that doctrine so that when Jesus comes, and he claims to be the Son of the Father, people start picking up the stones. Now, isn't that interesting? Even the enemies of Jesus know that when he claims to be the Son of the Father, he's claiming to be equal to God. That's an interesting doctrine of God, isn't it? Reading john chapter five, Jesus says, I am the Son of the Father, and everyone doesn't say, oh, that means you're less than the Father. Everyone says, you're claiming to be equal with the Father,
let's kill you. In Mark chapter 14, Jesus signs his own death warrant by saying yes, I am the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One. And to simply say that is to create is to be a blast FEMA, because if he's not that, then he is claiming to be God, but the Jewish understanding of God is not the Unitarian understanding of God at all. Christmas, let's finish with this. JOHN, chapter one, verse 14, the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us we have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only who came from the Father full of grace and truth. You might think, how could God's ever become a man? But of course, if we believe that God can do anything, he could become a man,
right? I mean, he could. The big question is, why would God's become a man? And the answer really is love. It really is love. One of my favorite verses from the scriptures, one john chapter four, verse a, God is love. He has always been a father, loving his son in the joy of the Holy Spirit and to express his deity. Down comes the son, to be one with us to be our brother to students, serve, suffer, bleed and even die. Yes, die. For us. That does not obscure His divine glory, that expresses his divine glory, because God's glory is the God of love. Thank you very much.
Okay, thank you very much. Clearly some very, very interesting points. Thank you for those. Now the floor will open for q&a. Now, Bob is the sister is a phrase. As we know, these things can get a bit heated can get a bit passionate. However, please just relax, take a deep breath, have a cup of some have croissant. Gather your thoughts. If you have any questions you want to write down, please don't hesitate to do so. Now few terms and conditions before we continue.
If we were to open the floor on questions in general, we'll be here all evening. So we must limit them to Jesus related questions. Any question that does not refer to Jesus? I'm sorry, you have to be answered later on. I'm pretty sure the speakers will happen to speak to you at the end of the event, or you can send them an email. So all questions must be Jesus related. Also, guest speakers for the sake of time, will have to guillotine on two minutes per question. So please be direct straight to the point. And then we can keep going. So
there'll be an order so first of all questions go to Adnan and then to Glen and then to Glen and so on, and so on.
Before and if you have a question referring to both of them, you can ask any time but just mentioned that is for both speakers. Is everyone clear with that?
Yeah, excellent. Okay, so first of all the floors will open for questions for our man who has a question for Adnan Rashid.
All of you at once, please calm down.
Yes, at the back there.
For the sake of the camera, please repeat the question as well.
He was trying to explain, john, john.
Thank you for that question. The gentleman asked this question that respected Christian speaker he mentioned, the gospel of john, chapter one, verse one, which states in the beginning was the Word the Word was with God, and word itself became God. And the Quran also mentions Jesus Christ as the Word of God. So what is the context, there is a completely different view on the issue. Word,
the Quran, when it claims that Jesus was the word of God, it means that God said a word and Jesus came about by that word. So in chapter two of the Quran, verse 116 117, when we are told,
God Almighty is the initiator of the heavens and the earth.
He is the initiator of the heavens in the earth. And when he wants a metric to be, he simply says, Be for your goal, and it becomes. So this is the context, the Quranic context. And when God wanted Jesus to be conceived without a father, into the womb of Mary, they simply said call, and Jesus became, right. And this is exactly how we are all words of God. Every single individual who is listening to me right now is a word of God in that sense, because we are all a product of the word coin, the creative power of God, God is the Creator. We all believe that right? Unless you're an atheist.
So this is how Jesus is God, God's word, not God. Sorry. Okay. Coming to the gospel of john, there are a number of issues with this gospel. First of all, we simply do not know who wrote the gospel, we do not have any evidence whatsoever as to the authorship of the gospel. Glenn, claimed that it is 100% certain as to who wrote the gospel, this is simply not true. According to the most historians and theologian and Christian scholars, and other quote, a source in this regard, new Jerome's biblical commentary, which was edited by a number of Christian scholars, including Raymond E. Brown, these are Christian, big authorities. These are authorities on Christianity, and they are
theologians. My time is up. They write in the introduction, that the gospel of john has three candidates, Jonathan versus john, the son of liberty and john, the presbyter, which still to this day, don't know as to which john wrote the gospel. And it is another lecture in itself. Thank you.
Thank you very much. anyone has any questions for Glenn? Also, feel free to text in? That's my number of days. No junk mail, please. Yes.
Just for Glenn. Yeah. Okay. Does anyone else have any questions? Sorry. I'm sorry. I have to give priority to others. Yes.
Jesus had the beginning.
So a characteristic of God is that he has no beginning. Jesus seems to have a beginning because he's born and seems to have an end because he's dead. So how does that gel with the claim that he's got? So the first summer so I guess that's why I began with john chapter one verse one in the beginning was
The word that the claim that the claim that Christians are making is not that Jesus came into existence in the manger or in Mary's womb, the claim is that he has always been the Eternal Word of gods. There has never been a time when God was without His Son, Jesus Christ. And actually, that's very important, because that means that the nature of God has always been father. Adnan says, you know, the Jewish doctrine of Gods is that he is father. And actually, essentially, in Christianity, that is true, but only if you've got an eternal Son, can you have an Eternal Father. And the Christian doctrine has always been Yes, God has always been father, because he's always had son
always been giving life to his son. So Jesus did not begin to exist in the womb of Mary. He has always been the word of the father who becomes flesh, he dies. But of course, everybody in this room if unless you're an atheist, nobody here believes that death equals non existence. Do.
You know my grandparents are dead, but they are not nowhere. They are somewhere, they still exist. Death, both of the Quran and the Bible is more of a realm over to which God has entered the world in its disobedience. Jesus is the one who enters into that realm, so as to redeem us from death and how and bring us out the other side. So Jesus never had a beginning in time and never had an end in time. And so he's still got
it this time. You have any questions?
How many texts and pieces of paper to get through so if anyone has any questions, please don't hesitate.
Our very friendly guy doesn't quite yet any frogman. Okay, I have one.
Question for Muslim speaker. What is the Islamic understanding of the Messiah? What was his purpose?
Thank you for that question. The Islamic perspective on the term Messiah is that he was a promised Liberator of the Jewish people.
The Jewish people will be facing troubles, and the Messiah will come and simply liberate them from the troubles. And this is what the term Messiah actually means someone who was promised to the Jewish people, he emerged in
Jesus under rejected him, and he was taken up by God, we believe that Jesus actually ascended physically to God Almighty, He was taken up physically by God Almighty, and he will return near the end of times to fix the record or put the record straight, in the sense that he will come back specifically to do four jobs, one, one of them will be to
the Antichrist to kill the Antichrist
will emerge near the end of times, and he will be one eye
and he will cause a lot of disturbance on the planet and and Jesus will be sent back to deal with him. second job Jesus will do is he will lift the GCI option. The GED option is when Muslims are in war with warring factions, someone who has a takedown or otherwise, Muslims present or presented historically three options, you embrace Islam, you become a brother's, or you pay jizya, which is a tax you pay to the Muslims to protect you. And the third option is that we go, we have a war. I don't know when this has the date, basically. But he will come Jesus will come and live the god option. Basically, he will tell the Christian and the Jews that no more Jews, yeah, you either
believe in me or you fight me. And the book of Revelation simply has a very similar view that Jesus will come back and he will fight his enemies, he will put the record straight basically. So these are the things Jesus will come back and do. And this is what the Muslim eschatology states. So the issue of Messiah is that he will come back and complete his job, he will not come back as a prophet, you will not come back as a messenger. Rather, he will come back as a follower of the law of Muhammad peace be upon him, because he is the one Muhammad peace be upon him is the one who has told us about Jesus that he will come back into these things. Thank you.
This is a question for both Adnan and Glenn. So I'm guessing they want both your opinions on this. Why in the Bible does Jesus referred to himself as son of man, and it's kind of interlinked with these two? Could you please tell me where Jesus states that he is the Son of God? What are transcript dates on an ambiguous and where does Jesus say that I am God worship Me, so they after evidence is from the scripture of Jesus.
Second day the Son of Man or he is God.
There's lots of places you could go in the old testament to think of the Son of Man, probably the clearest one and the one that
Jesus kind of alludes to more than any other is Daniel chapter seven. It's a dream of the prophet Daniel. Lots of things are going on. But I'll just read Daniel seven verses 13 and 14, in my vision at nighttime looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven, He approached the Ancient of Days a title for the Father, and was led into His presence, he was given all authority, glory and sovereign power. All nations and peoples of every language, worshiped Him, His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. So again, this is another Old Testament verse that shows the
Jewish doctrine of God is not unitary. There is an ancient of days there is a son of man who has given divine worship, divine honors, divine titles, who is this son of man, he's either mad, bad or God. So this is often a question that people have when they hear Jesus saying, He's the son of men. People think that if he says he's the son of man, he's saying he's less than the Son of God. But actually, in the Jewish context, to claim to be the Son of Man is actually quite explosive. And you can see why in
1314. So on Jesus trial, as he's for Chi Fs, in Mark, chapter 14, verse 62, it's the earliest document we have about the life of Jesus, the clearest biography we have of Jesus from those of the same culture and the same time. And as Jesus is on trial. pifm says, I do you buy the Holy One, I view the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One. And Jesus says, I am a go me I am. And you will see the Son of Man coming on the cloud of heaven. And for that you can understand in that Jewish million, that is dynamites. That is his death warrant. That's why they killed him. Jesus died for blessed feeling. Okay. Why is it considered blasphemy unless it's claiming to be one of the Divine persons,
okay. And he is he's claiming to be that Christ, the Son of the Blessed One, the Son of Man, Hope that answers some of the questions, and I'm happy to go.
The issue of worship, and the book of Daniel, the vision or the dream. Firstly, the word worship, in Greek Koskinen is used in a number of different contexts to deliver a number of different meanings in the old as well as the New Testament. For example, we know that in the Old Testament, David was worshipped. So what Solomon, okay, so, in the New Testament, in some translations, we are told that Jesus was worshipped. So James D done, the person who already mentioned, who am I already mentioned his book, he talked, he wrote a book titled, early Christians worship Jesus. And that's the title of the book done, do you double and check his name down and study the book? And he addresses this
question extensively. And his conclusion is that the term worship in the sense that the way you worship God, as God with capital G, does not exist in the old as well as, as well as the New Testament towards a man rather, this worship actually means paying respect, bowing, okay, leaving your space to someone else, can also regard as worship in biblical literature. If we were to take the Bible literally when we want to, then we must also believe that Israelites, Israelites, all of them are gods.
Moses is God. The Book of Exodus chapter seven, verse one, clearly states, and only one person in the Bible, for whom the Word of God is used not amazingly ironically, no such word exists for Jesus Christ. But Moses is told by God Almighty, allegedly, that you have been made a god to fair. So if anyone has gone in the scriptures of the Jews and the Christians, it should be Moses, with regards to his crucifixion and the case when he was crucified according to the gospel of john you Firstly, we don't know who wrote the gospel, and where it come from what the source of the gospel is, there is only one man in the early second century, who has told us that the gospels were allegedly written
by Matthew, Mark, Luke and john and his name is Papyrus of hierapolis. We are one testimony from the early second century, attributing these documents to individuals who were anonymous, otherwise unknown individuals and there are many more
Documents written in the first and the second century, which were rejected by the church later on, because they did not fit into the church doctrine. So gospel of john and chapter 10 tell us that Jesus was being stoned by the Jews. They picked up stones to stone him. And he said, Why do you buy? Stone? Why do people stonewalling? And they said, You blaspheme against God, as you claim to be God? How does Jesus respond to this claim? If these verses are to be believed they're historically true? He said, Does it not say in your scriptures, that you are gods? In the book of Psalms, Chapter 82?
Jesus was actually quoting the book of Psalms Chapter 82, verse six, that does not say in your scripture that you are all gods. I am only claiming to be the Son of God and what is the Son of God? It means in I know,
let me finish my point. And, okay, do you want me to finish it later on?
10 seconds, okay. So what does it actually mean to be a son of God? In the Bible, the Son of God actually means a man of God, a man of God, someone close to God, because Israelites are called sons of God. The disciples of Jesus are called sons of God. In that same sense, Jesus is called the Son of God. Okay? This is the sense used in the Bible care for individuals, the sons of God, as people of God. Thank you.
Thank you. Wonderful Glen.
In Matthew 1524, Jesus said, I was sent only the underlined only to the machine of Israel. So why how can you tell me that he was sent to all of mankind?
Excellent question. So Matthew, has so many Jewish themes going on it starts with a geniality what could be more kind of Jewish than beginning with so and so they get so and so they get so and so they get so and so. And really putting Jesus into that Jewish familia. And actually, within that genealogy that Matthew's Gospel begins with, he comes Jesus, he's the son of a brand is the son of David, he's the Christ is the Son of God. And here he comes set to Israel, and he makes a big deal out of that. And you're right, man, Matthew 15, verse 24, he's only sent to the last week of Israel. And in that same chapter, there's this woman and she's a Gentile, and she wants a demon driven out
of a daughter, and Jesus, like, ah, but I've only been sent to the left Shiva, he's still healed. It still cleanses, right? Because he is for the nations. But right now, at that time and place, Jesus is doing a Jewish thing. And we see how God is doing that Jewish thing. He is the Son of God who sums up Israel, Israel is another a title that's given to
Israel, Israel is called the Son of God, Jesus comes as the Son of God, the definitive Israel, to summon Israel to put to death in all its sins and to rise up again. And then what is he doing in Matthew chapter 28, he says, Go therefore into all nations, and make disciples of all people baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and the Holy Spirit, and surely, and with you always to the very end of the age. So there's a shape to Matthew's Gospel, you can't just just as I can't dive into the Quran, and read a meccan surah, as if it's a Medina and surah, you wouldn't accept me doing that. Don't jump into Matthew, one part of the story and expect that Jesus will do
exactly the same in another part of the story. He's on the way to the cross, he puts that old thing to death rises up again. And then he says, go out to the nations and every single post resurrection experience of Jesus is always one of him saying go to the nation's go to all creation. Thanks.
Thank you, Glenn. Question for Atlanta. Why should I trust a document written? over 100 years later, Quran? Note sorry, why should I say? Why should I trust a document written hundreds of years later, the Quran instead of the New Testament written less than 100, about whether Jesus died?
Very simple, find out which one is from God. Simple. If the gospels are actually truly from God, then follow the Gospels. I'm telling you that now. If the Quran is from God, as it claims to be, then follow the Quran. The gospels, not in any place, nowhere claim to be the Divine Word of God. Even the authors themselves did not claim that, in fact, in the early second century, these documents were simply known as the memoirs of the apostles, not the word of God. It was only in the third century when early church fathers and the church started to call them the Scripture. The word scripture was used for the Old Testament in the second century. These are some facts which are
completely unknown to the Christian masses. The Christian masses simply do not have a clue about these things. This is why I'm bringing them up the issue of Matthew 2819, which was quoted by
Again, is a very interesting verse and chapter 15, verse 24. At all Jesus said, I have not been sent to anyone, except to the last year of Hebrew, the half of Israel. And then in 2019, he seems to be telling his disciples go into the world and preach to everyone. According to Christian scholars, grand Stanton, from the University of Cambridge, one example, to give you one example, he believes that chapter 28, verse 19, the book of Matthew is a later edition, it was not set by Jesus Christ. It was a statement added later on, attributed to him, I won't say this, about a mom, of course of mosque is not saying this, or the Imam of the mosque in Mecca is not saying this. This is brand
spankin, from the University of Cambridge, who said this in his book gospel, and Jesus, this is what he said. So some of these issues are very, very contentious, because these are very deep topics with a lot of academic details that just simply cannot be covered in such a short setting, but we do our best. Thank you.
Thank you question to Glenn. If we are all children of God, does that mean we are all the sons and daughters of God?
Great question. As I opened up, John's Gospel to you by the way we've got these John's gospels for you be very welcome to take one for yourself. Go home and and read the Injeel. I've given you a start from john chapter one. And you can keep on reading through about who is this Jesus, that's our gift to you. But here, john calls Jesus twice. The Mulligan is the only begotten Son of gods. It's a unique title, no one anywhere else has called them on again, there's
no way in the Bible is the Mulligan is the only begotten Son of God ever ascribed to anyone apart from Jesus. He is the eternal and only Son of God. But wonder wonders, he comes to become our brother. That's what Christmas is. So that if he becomes our brother, and you want to be one with Jesus, well, john chapter one, verse 12, says, To all who received Jesus to those who believe in his name, he gave the right to become children of God. Do you see what happens? He is the one who is the Son of God, by rights by nature, and he is the gift of the father to you. And the father says, If you want my son you can happen. And if you receive Jesus, all of a sudden, you get Jesus spirits as
your spirit, and you get his father as your father and you become a child of God. That's how it works.
For nine, if Mohammed is the greatest prophet, why is Jesus the one to defeat the Antichrist?
Thank you for that question. The question is so on. So the question, why is Muhammad the greatest prophet or not Jesus, we don't claim that Jesus is any lower than Mohammed or Muhammad is any higher than this is what we do believe according to the Quran, the Quran tells us not to make any difference among the prophets that are five, who do what we call the old as the prophets, the greatest prophets, the five, these five are no,
Abram, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, these five are the most
messengers in the history of Abrahamic faiths. This is what we are taught as Muslims. So Muhammad is not greater than Jesus in that sense of Jesus not. What Jesus will be doing is to fulfill the promise made by God, on the tongue of Muhammad, Muhammad is the Prophet peace be upon him. And he spoke to his people, and he promised certain things, and he made certain prophecies, and he said that Jesus will come and, and, in fact, one can easily claim that Jesus will come as a follower of Muhammad because he will come back to the world, he will apply the Islamic law, he will not be applying the British law or the French law, or the American law, or the church, canon law, the
Catholic law, no, Jesus was none of these things, and he will only one of these things, he would come back to apply the law of God. And according to the Muslim believe the law of God, in His final form, is the law given to the prophet of Islam, Prophet Mohammed, finally, very quickly, want to raise a point, the only begotten Son of God, that means he was the only one because like, Is that what you understand? Right? The only the bottom means he was the only one because Is that correct? Yes or no? Yes. The Book of Psalms chapter two, verse seven tells us that Jesus was told. So you're not Jesus. David was told by God today I have you gotten the reader. When you come back next time,
please read Psalm 272.
David Autobot. So Jesus is not
All you got to
understand that but Jesus is not the only
Question for Glenn, how can Jesus be caught when he did things God wouldn't or shouldn't do ag get tired sleep, when it's not the fitting for God to eat or sleep, right?
In john chapter one, verse 14, we thought about the Word became flesh. And we do not believe the word cease being the words, that God the sun ceased being gods, that it's not a subtraction, for Jesus for the eternal Son of gods, to take on humanity, it's an addition. In addition to him, being the Son of the Father, full of the Holy Spirit, he enters into our humanity, and there should be nothing. There's nothing sinful. There's nothing wrong about Jesus being weak. There's nothing sinful. There's nothing wrong about Jesus entering into the suffering experiences that you and I have. Actually, if we understand that the divine glory is shaped by love, he's actually expressing
his divine transcendence by stooping, serving, suffering, bleeding, and dying, that is an expression of his divine glory to do all those things.
Compared to different printers, imagine two different printers in two different kingdoms. One of them looks on all his subjects, and just you know, every now and again to throw his bread out of the carriage and says, here, my servants, you can have some bread every now and again. That's one kind of grace. Another kind of grace is the prince who climbs down on his throne who, who finds a pauper, and he marries her. And all of a sudden, all of it is his becomes hers. And all that is hers becomes his, the Bible is actually a love story. And when you look at those two princes tell me which one is more glorious. Which one is more transcendent in Prince leanness? I think the Christian answer to
that question is, the one who stoops and serve proves themselves to be possessing that divine glory because they love to the utmost. And that's what Jesus does in His incarnation.
I'm sorry. We can't wait for the time.
I'm just trying to find someone on my list.
when he was a test, that's the
You are, this is a good question. you gentlemen asked this question that what does the Quran say about Jesus's ascension to the heavens? Both documents, the Quran and the gospels are unanimous. Or they agreed upon this issue that Jesus ascended to the heavens. According to the gospel, he was crucified he was killed any rose on the third day and then he ascended according to on he was never put on the cross, never died. Rather, he will he ascended without being crucified, chapter four, verse 157 259. These three verses actually give us that particular perspective. And what is the perspective the Quran literally states or Marcato
will call him in
mercy. As for the sake of the Jews that we kill the Masada will do the same. Amazingly, it's not in the Gospels. It's not in the Old Testament. It is in the Talmud, I already stated that the some of the Jewish people, some not all of them claimed to have killed Jesus were called in in mercy. So they claim that we have killed the Messiah
or masamune. We're not going to be alone. The kilda not the crucified or not rather interpreted themselves. Okay, what does that mean the substitution theory, which is very often
quoted on elated by Muslims, that there was someone else in his place who was given his shabby or his his looks, and he was putting across this story, by the way does not come from the prophet of Islam.
It is not from the prophet of Islam rather, this theory actually comes from Christian sources. So it is not an Islamic theory any Muslim who goes out there and preaches this theory or presents it as a theory to explain the core is simply mistaken because this theory I can come from a Christian group called bestiality. Ian's who are alive in the second century who believed that
It was not Jesus was crucified. It was Simon of sorry, one of his disciples who was given his looks and he was pulled across. So some commentators on the Quran, the simply put this
stereo stone, the story as one of the descriptions or explanations for the Chronicles, look around don't simply say anything about
how we were because that's what they thought what happened. And it is very clear story. That's what the Christians thought in early second century. That what happened, but the Quran doesn't say that it was someone else who was putting up on the cost in his place doesn't say that. The story came to be known. It was spread by people, they started to write it down, and later generations. And as for tacitus, and Joseph first, and toddlers and all these names are mentioned by Glenn
asked a question, when do these manuscripts come from what other scholars say about the text of geographers or Jewish historians? His passages on Jesus were mostly interpolated by later Catholic hags. This is what the historians and authorities believe on that very point.
question for both of you to continue your previous point. Adnan says that songs to cause David begotten so how can Jesus be only begotten
by that, was that come by a text? Yes, yeah, it's just referring to your previous point is the is the issue that the idea of a garden seems to intimate a beginning. So whose existence is that? Is that this the the issue? It's
I asked the question to carry on the discussion, because I thought was an interesting point.
But we wanted to make sure that it was done in a way so that both speakers could have the microphone. So all of you could also say that it was done in an orderly way. So we would love it if both of you could answer the question. Is Jesus really the only begotten Son and Adnan reached the point of Psalm two? And that is cool someone they've gotten. So how can Jesus be the only begotten if Psalm two in the Old Testament says that? Okay.
So there's lots of everybody in this room.
And everyone who is a child of God has been born in the garden of God, I refer to john chapter one, verse 12. So yeah, there's lots of people who are forgotten. And,
and therefore, what does it mean when the figure in Psalm two is called, you are my son today I have begun you. Well, that figure in Psalm two, again, it speaks very strongly against any idea of a unitary and Old Testament. Here we've got a father speaking to a son, the son who is the king of all, who is poured out on Mount Zion, who is raised up who will inherit the nation's and he is the one person who you must take refuge in, you must kiss the son lest he be angry, and you'd be destroyed in your way for his anger can flare up in a moment, blessed are all those who take refuge in Him. The Scriptures are telling you to take refuge in the Son of God. So Psalm two is speaking in
very exalted terms right there. But what it says in Psalm three, verse seven is, you're my son today I have gotten you, he does not use You are my Mulligan, his son, he just says you are mad at the government. So you are not the only big government, you are not the one and only nobody anywhere in Scripture is ever called the one and only apart from Jesus Christ. He is the only one organist. Thank you.
Thank you for that. I think there is a lot of confusion that David was definitely called forgotten. So was Jesus According to the New Testament? And when you use the term mono bonobos, is that the term Yes, which is a Greek term. And we cannot expect the old testament to use the same term for daily because the Old Testament was not written in Greek. We do. The earliest translations we do have are from 150 BCE, the Septuagint, not out. But we have now the Dead Sea Scrolls. So we simply cannot expect the old testament to use a term or super important term on it, to get a meaning from it. There is obviously something wrong with the claim that Jesus is the only begotten Son because
he's not. He's not the only begotten, because David goes on. So you must say that he was the only specially if we got to the sun. That would make more sense Do you want to do? Yes. So if you want to make a point that Jesus was a Begotten Son, and he was unique in his gotten ness, then you can say it that way. But if you say he was the only begotten Son, you're misleading people, I think so. Thank you. Question for Glen. Matthew chapter 26. Verse 39, Jesus fell to his face and prayed. Who is he praying to? If he's God? Is he praying to himself?
antastic so the Christian doctrine, the Trinity is, there is a father who has always loved his son in the joy, the spirit, who is Jesus. Jesus is the Son of the Father, who takes on our humanity in order to save us and redeem us who takes that oil to the cross that fearful moment where he's going to take on himself the sins of the whole world, so that he can take it down to the depth that it deserves, rise up again, and offer us all free forgiveness offer us all a place in his family. That's what Jesus is doing in the garden that gets me the prospect of the classes before him. And he is praying before the Father about that prospect. Now, there's nothing odd about that Jesus has been
praying for his father for a very long time, before the universe existed. There has always been a prayer life, a communion between Father, Son and Holy Spirit, wonder of wonders, Jesus carries on that conversation in our flesh in our humanity, and wondering what is he says to us? If you want to pray, guess what I've been calling God my father for forever. If you want to pray, come to me. And I can teach you how to call my father, your father, and we come in on the family prayer life of God.
If Muslims believe that Jesus is not the way the truth and the light,
think they need life,
do Muslims really believe that good deeds will take them to heaven, knowing that God is the standard every human will be compared to to be judged?
Thank you for that we do not believe that Jesus is not the way to truth, light and life. We don't believe that we actually do believe that Jesus was and will be the way to God to life and eternal prosperity. We believe that. How do we know this? Because of the Muslim eschatology? Do you all know what eschatology is? Anyone? Mostly, I think people don't know eschatology. eschatology is the view of the end of times how the world will end the day of judgment, how will it come about and, and incidents before this is what we call eschatology. So Islamic eschatology makes it amply clear that Jesus is absolutely central to doing the right thing. So what does it actually mean that I am the
way to God? What is what does that mean? If we look at it from an Islamic perspective, every single prophet who came to humanity in his respective time, and geography was the way to God. If Moses was speaking to his people been to Israel, or the children only saw you?
He was, I am the Way to go, you don't follow me, you die. You suffer eternally. Jesus came to us people speaking to the Jewish people, as well as the Messiah, I am the Way to go. You don't follow me, you suffer.
People is that I am the Way to go. You don't follow me. You die you suffer. As for salvation, we have a promise an absolute guarantee for salvation. This is a misconception about Muslims and Christian minds, that Muslims simply don't have any promise of salvation we do. Jesus died for our sins on the cost, we add the grace, we will be forgiven, we have a problem salvation. And Muslims don't have any such thing. And no, we do, actually in the
Muslim world. Do not die unless you're Muslim.
It means so long as you die Muslim, you will have salvation, you will have eternal bliss, you will eventually end up in paradise. Depending on how many crimes you have committed, you will have to pay for your clients, a murderer or a rapist or a pedophile and simply don't work through. You know, on the day of judgment, just because you believed in the grace of Jesus Christ, Jesus died for my sins on the cost of a pedophile.
I'm a rapist. My sins forgiven Jesus saved me. People actually think like that. But there's no such thing like that. Thank you.
Christians believe that Jesus died for our sins as Muslims, we believe that God is around man, meaning the Most Merciful. Forgive him. So why do you believe that God has had to kill upon him his son to be able to forgive us?
Again, it's a love story.
Here's the prince climbing down off the throne. He is marrying the girl. She's full of debts. Now when my wife and I got married, we actually said these balanced to each other. We said Oh, but I am I give to you all that I have I share with you. And as we said, Those vowels that are literally sniggers in the congregation. All our friends were laughing at us because we knew we were just fresh out of university. And we were just full of student debts. And we were basically saying Hey, have you ever wasted
Monitor opponents should be very generously share them with me. And so we just merged out debts basically. But imagine this story imagine the Prince and the Pauper. All his riches go to her. And all her debts go to him.
And Jesus when he takes on the sins of the world, he is taking on our debts. This is actually did you know that in the Lord's prayer that he teaches his disciples to pray? Literally the word is, forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. How do you forgive a debt? How do you forgive a debt? If you only 3000 pounds, and I decide to cancel the debt? What does that 3000 pounds go? Does it just magic off into the into thin air now, I've got I've got a, I've got a shoulder that burden. I'm now 3000 pounds out of pocket, it costs me and then it costs you in all your forgiving relationship. If you ever forgive somebody and you don't retaliate, it costs you. And Jesus when he
comes, it costs Him to forgive us. It costs him to take on our debts unto himself, but he does it because of love.
wish to one more. Okay, we'll do one more each for the sake of time, we probably all fall asleep. What is the purpose of Jesus's miraculous birth? With regards to Islam? This is for a man, there must be a reason, for example, the miraculous birth of Adam was solely solely to create mankind. But what about Jesus?
Thank you for that. This was a very interesting question. Why create Jesus miraculously rather than having a father for him? My This is my personal view. And you don't have to agree with this. My view is that in the first century CE II, there were many stories about Roman emperors born of virgin mothers, okay, and they were like die fight. That fight means they were made God like Julius Caesar, was defied. So, in order to deal with these contentions, where people were actually following Roman cults at the time, because every prophet came to his people with a solution to the problems, Moses came to these people, you know, we know that Egyptians are done indulged in magic. We find evidence
of that in preparing evidence and temples on walls. In tombs, we have found evidence that Egyptians were heavily involved in magical practices. So what are Babylonians? Right? So Moses comes with amazing miracles. He shows them these miracle wonderful, amazing wonders, and people start to believe that this is something different to what we have been seeing so far. Likewise, Jesus came to his people to convince them that God has power to do all things and things are possible.
Whether they are natural or supernatural, they are faced, God simply cannot do nothing. Okay. God cannot do impossibilities. For example, the God can do anything, I would ask him a question, Can God cease to exist? Can God cease to exist? No, God cannot cease to exist. That means God cannot do impossibilities. Because God simply it, it is impossible for God to cease to exist. And this is why we believe that God cannot be a man because when he becomes a man, he ceases to be God.
He ceases to be God, because God is not a man. According to the Old Testament, God is not a man, it can never be a man. So these are some of the things we need to look into. What was the question? Sorry.
He confused me as well. It was something along the lines of Jesus, but
if Adam was created,
so in order to deal with some of the views prevalent at the time, in the first century, God gave Jesus privilege, Mary was known to be without, you know, to be without a man, she was not married, she could not have had a relationship and and what proves this point, Jesus came to be a messenger of God, a very powerful figure with a lot of miracles. So why do we believe Jesus was born miraculously? Because he is the one who's telling us that and the Quran is telling us that we believe that because of the Quran, okay. I believe that Jesus born miraculously and so was it, because
otherwise I wouldn't believe it. I believe it because I believe the Quran is the word of God, period. Thank you. Thank you very much. Last one for Glenn. Did Jesus stop being God when he became
the divine nature has always been a father loving his son in the joy of the Spirit. Jesus carries on that divine communion. As one of us this is the glory of glory is that he comes to share
With us everything that he's enjoyed with his father, and it's interesting, Jesus is a prophet in his own. And I often say to Muslims, well, do you believe what the prophet said, Because one of the things that the prophet prophesied one of the things that he said is the night before he died, john chapter 17, verse 24, in this book, he says, Father, you loved me from before the foundation of the world. That's what the prophet says that if you believe the Prophet, you must believe that he's more than a prophet. He says, You love making before the foundation of the world. And then he says, My prayer is this, that they might know my love, and your love, and be with me where I am. This is the
whole story of what Jesus had to do not to stop being Gods between clued us in his life, the sun coming down to be now brother, still fully the Son of the Father, still fully full of the Holy Spirit, please come to link arms with us and just say, Come with me where I am, joined this love, and I just love you to pick up one of these uncover Gospels and just read and would you just shoot up a prayer to say, God, if this really is your word? Would you speak to me through this, you got nothing to lose? If it went after the truth? Why don't we open up these gospels, these NGO and read for ourselves and see if we don't understand more of this love of God?
Thank you very much. We're almost there. We're almost at the finish line. But we're going to spice things up a little bit. We are going to give the speakers an opportunity to ask the other speaker one question. So first and foremost.
Do you have a question for Glenn?
Okay, Glenn, now you're in trouble.
The question I have is the central question, the question, okay, where we actually differ. And this is a major issue of the divinity of Jesus Christ. Christians believe our claim that Jesus is God was God will be God. And Muslims simply deny that
claim? Because we have reasons to believe that Jesus could never have claimed to be God. So can you please give us some categorical evidence? categorical? I mean, I know of the verses I read the New Testament and the Old Testament, so there's nothing you would pull out, or you want to pull out a rabbit out of the hat or maybe even an editor, for that matter. Okay. Can you give me a categorical because this is a category issue, if you claim for someone to be in God, okay. Moses has grounds to claim that definitely, okay. The tribe of Israel, or tribes of Israel have grounds to claim that according to the Bible, Jesus is the last person to claim that because he, in some of the places
simply denied, for example, the very end of the gospel of john, where you said that he when he ascended in, you made a point from the end, in this very end of chapter 20, verse 17, Jesus says, I ascended on to my father, and to your father, to my God, to my God, and to your body. So if he's God, what game does he play? This is the, this is ascending on to his father, what games? Is he playing with his followers? I'm not God, I'm going to my god. I'm going to myself.
Is this serious? Is he actually says, No, we believe actually, you know, what's his name? Louis. CS Lewis, when you quote him that Jesus either died or God, I say, he's none of them. He's none of them. Because we have simply misunderstood him. We have simply created doctrines ourselves, and we started to believe in them. And we forced others to believe in them, historically speaking. So give me one categorical statement categorical, where Jesus said, I am without a doubt, 100%, certainly God with capital G, please.
Let's start with john 2017. Here is Jesus is the Son of the Father full of the Spirit. He's gone through death. He's come out the other side, he meets men. And he says, and he's just thrilled he's overwhelmed. Here's someone who's actually trying to throw the dead and come out the other side. That's a pretty good proof of who is God, if you can be death, that seems to be the Bible's proof that your God, but here's the proof, he comes through death and he comes out the other side in a glorified few minutes and never to die again. Wonder wonders. He says, I'm about to ascend, and we're about to send to my father. And I'm going to make him your father. I'm about to send that to
my gods. And I'm going to make any yoga. Isn't that wonderful? The Son of the Father for the stereo cameras
joins hands with us. He unites himself to us on the cross, he pays up all that debts through His resurrection. He comes through on the other side and he says, you know, I'm ascending back to God, and I'm gonna take you with me. So that now you can call my father, your father, you can call my God, your God, He is God, the son was always called godfather. He has always enjoyed that phrase. I've always enjoyed that love that communion. And he says, You're welcome. Come on, come on. This is what Jesus says, This is what's on offer. You won't find this in the Quran, you won't find anything like this in the Quran. If you want the definitive truth, well, if Jesus is the Word of the Father,
then he is the standard of what God is. So it's an interesting question, isn't it? And really, my, my big challenge to you would be to pick up this and to look at it and if Jesus really is the true light of God's, then you won't need any more convincing than for me to tell you that the sun is bright The sun is, you know, the sun is bright. Have you noticed? It doesn't look for goodness sakes, just look. And when you open up the scriptures and see this light of God's shining, one place you'll see is in john chapter eight, Jesus claims before Abraham was born, I am. And Jesus is quite good at grammar. Okay, so just forgotten what the past tense is? Why does it say I am using the name
of God from the burning bush, where the messenger of the Lord, the angel of the Lord, who is of the Lord, and who is Lord claimed his name as the great I am, I am who I am. And Gigi says, I wasn't early in the burning bush. I also met with Abraham, good back in Genesis and you'll see Abraham rejoice to see the Lord. He rejoice to see the Lord. He was over the moon. And it was the Lord that He saw Jesus saying he is that one. In john eight, verse 57. They think Jesus is is claiming to be 2000 years old, they say you're not yet 50 years old. They said, Tim, have you really seen Abraham, very truly I tell you, Jesus has it before Abraham was born.
And the fact that picked up stones is a stunning
thing. Nobody's claiming. They know he's claiming to be the pre Existent One, the very messenger of the Lord, the divine Angel, the one who has come from the Father full of grace and truth. He is the I Am, who I am. And I just pray that you'll pick up this book, and amazing, thank you very much.
Can you ask a question? Now?
This is a genuine question. I'm not trying to track or anything like that I genuinely try
to be too good for me. But genuinely,
as I read the scriptures, and I see this doctrine of the God, who is father for this, you know, loving his son for the spirit, and here comes Jesus. And
all these extra biblical texts are saying, Yes, Jesus lived, yes, Jesus died on that cross. All these texts say the whole New Testament is built upon up the entire Christian Church is built upon that Jesus came, but he was crucified. And then he rose again. That's, that's like the earliest creed, one Corinthians chapter 15, is coming from a few years after the events that describes, and so this united testimony within certainly the New Testament, let's just keep it to that is united testimony that says, Here is Jesus He came, he suffered and died upon the cross and rose again. Now, if you say, from Surah, for
that people were deceived about that. No one seems to know about that deception. until half a millennium later, half a millennium later, everyone say, the entire Christians are organizing everything around the death of Jesus, that they're breaking bread, they're drinking wine, because they're remembering the death of Jesus. Every baptism is a remembrance of the death. Everything is about the death of Jesus half a millennium later, there is this this one who is not in the line of the prophets. He's not, you know, that there is there is a wonderful line in the Bible. There's Matt, this, you know, Adam, and there's Noah, and there's Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And there's
Moses, and what do you notice about all these people? They're all Israelites, and then you get Jesus. And then over here, you get, you know, Muhammad comes half a millennium later, and he says, Oh, I'm kind of initial like, are you? Okay? But Ishmael breaks up over here, and you come up half a millennium later. And you deny what everybody has been saying, historically, for five, 600 years about the death of Jesus, how we met, if it's true, that there was a deception played on all those people for all those years. If that's true, that's even worse. How do you trust Allah? If he's going to see so many people for so many hundreds of years, and now deceiving 2 billion people is 2 billion
people on the planet who claim to be Christians we base ourselves on the depth of
If if there's been a deception play?
I know that sounds implausible. But even if it was true, how do you then trust Allah? If he's going to lie to so much of humanity?
So long question,
and I will give a very long,
very good point deception, who claims they were deceived?
who claims that there is no such claim in the Quran that they were deceived. This is
your impression of the Quran. The Quran doesn't say they were deceived, because the world for deceived in Arabic, it's very, very clear. And that's not the word used, it should be alone means this is what the thought what happened, this is what appeared to them. Now, why would God deceive them? If even if we were to accept the word deceived? Is there or that's what's meant in the Quran? That How would you respond to my questions on Hindus? Why would Jesus deceive hundreds of 1000s? Or hundreds of millions of people in India, worshipping monkeys, elephants, rocks, snakes? Why would Jesus being a merciful God, deceive all these hundreds of millions of people? Let them believe in
what they believe in? Same question can be thrown at you in a far worse form? You know, at least we actually believe in God, one God who alone deserves to be worshipped. But there are people on this planet, living in jungles possibly somewhere or even in India, in cities, people with degrees, PhDs, the guy who runs Google law, what's his name? sewage, what? Do you know? He's Indian, is Hindu or not people like him? Believe in worshipping snakes, monkeys and other things, which is fine. But if they want to do it, it's up to them. But on the Day of Judgment, God will ask them, What happened Do you mind? You're able to do PhDs and be able to write dissertation and conduct researches and fly
around the planet? And then you ended up worshipping monkeys and snakes? What's wrong with you? So same can go to the Christians and Muslims? What's wrong with us? Why don't we actually study reading is one thing. Reading the Scripture is one thing and believing in it blindly is wanting studying, it is a completely another issue altogether. It's another issue. So why would God deceive him? And why would they would Why would they be such a historical breaker? First of all, I will challenge the view that it is an historical reality established, really, it wasn't that, you know, there were early Christian documents that did not mention crucifixion. For this reason, they were thrown out of
the cannon. I'll give you example, the most read the Christian document in the second and third century was a document called the document. I'm sure you have heard of it. The document was a book for bigger than the four gospels was written by the Christians in the east. Why don't we know about it today, Christians are reading in the second and third century, it was simply thrown out because it didn't put any stress on the issue of crucifixion doesn't even mention it. Then we are the Epistle of Barnabas or pistols of Barnabas, we are another document called the shepherd of hermas, which is still to be found in manuscripts from the fourth century, there is a manuscript called
Codex Sinaiticus in the British Library in London, if you go there you can see, it is the oldest complete, even that is not complete, by the way, complete New Testament in history, and it's from the fourth century, mid fourth century.
So this story about Jesus was not established. It didn't just come down in a box, and people open the box, and lo and behold, we believe in Jesus Christ, who rose on the third day I was crucified and paid for our sins. No, it doesn't work like that. History doesn't work like that. People started to believe in things gradually, beliefs developed gradually, and gradually, okay. They were Christians, who in the first in the second century, didn't even have Gospels. For example, the gospel of john was read by the Christians of Egypt. The Christians of Antioch only had access to the Gospel of Luke. It was in the 367 scene. 330 years after Jesus Christ, when the canon of the New
Testament was established, there was no such thing Listen carefully, listening.
Are you listening? I don't think so. Are you listening? Okay.
There was no such thing.
As the New Testament, there was no such document as late as the fourth century. The first time four gospels were mentioned together by a Christian was by a man called Irenaeus in the year 200. So what were the Christians reading? What did they believe in?
Why did they believe in those things? This is why there was so much diversity in the early church of belief, they simply didn't have on belief. And only the fourth century when the Roman Empire after the console of Constantinople, the Emperor Theodosius, if you read the theodosian code, you will see why people started to believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. It was forced upon the Roman Empire on the tip of Saud, the doctrine according to
Dr. may not be aware of these things, what I'm telling you today, but if you study not only read study, you will come to these conclusions yourselves. Thank you.
Before we finish, thank everyone for coming. Please forgive us for any shortcomings may have failed. We'll have many, many questions left unanswered. But there are a lot of questions around the same theme. So we try to try to broaden the horizon of topics to get as many questions here as possible. Now, thank you for coming. It's a pleasure to work with to see you. Hopefully, you'll see many, many more events in the future. Also, the Islamic sites are given away free booklets to show you why Muslims we believe a fourth conviction in the Quran on why is the word of God. Feel free to grab on when you leave. And we're just gonna have some closing statements.
Thank you very much for coming. I'm definitely going to be picking up one of those afterwards. I will also, as Glenn's been mentioning over and over again, we've got these things with uncover john. It's the full text of John's Gospel, as we have in our New Testaments today. There are six study sessions in here as well, if you want to just pick six and go quick. And there's some study questions, if you want to deal with a friend. That also loads of videos in there as well, maybe explaining things including one on the reliability of John's Gospel. I think as both speakers would agree and have been telling us over and over again this evening, we can't just forget what we've
been told about these things we should go ourselves and see for ourselves. And that's actually what this is called uncover See for yourself.
I forgot that that was the title for them. So I just thought we'd say just before we end, this has been an amazing opportunity. In one sense for us and asinine has been a dream come true. We've been dreaming up this event for ages. So can we just say first of all, thank you to both speakers for giving up their time to come giving up their time to prepare for traveling for ages to get here on midweek as well. late into the evening, obviously, can we give them a massive round of applause?
Can we also say a thank you, I'd say there's a number of other people that we really need to thank, firstly to both committees, the Christian Union and the Islamic Society. Also anyone else who has been involved in flowering for the events putting flowers, Kirsten kinnaman for designing the flyer and the post that has been going around. And also anyone else has just been helping it anyway. And especially the Islamic Society for providing all this amazing food and drink.
We're gonna call it a night. However, if you have any further questions might not be related to this topic or you send in a text that wasn't answered to me. So it's self control to the highest level.
But also please respect that they do it to as well.
Thank you very much.
Just to say that one of those books will be available.
Please come and speak to Glenn and also please respect to they do it hard for us to go to as well.
Thank you very much.
Those books will be available