Adnan Rashid – What is Qadiani Religion- Declan Henry Interview

Adnan Rashid
AI: Summary ©
The ahorn movement claims to be the "ar passion," but the Mahdi Caliphate is the "arads of the Mahdi Caliphate," which aims to portray the Mahdi Caliphate as a movement against "ar passion." The speakers discuss negative comments and denials of figures like Jesus Christ, the New centers of Christ, and the Pharisees. They also touch on education and failed prophecies predicted by God, including a woman who was supposed to marry a young man, a woman who was divorceated by her father, and a woman who was supposed to marry a young man, but she was already married.
AI: Transcript ©
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The Ahmadiyya movement is not Islam, although the

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movement claims to be the true Muslims, right?

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The slogan is that we are the true

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Muslims, and the rest of the Muslim community

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around the world, two billion odd Muslims, are

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not upon true Islam.

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The first thing is that he is a

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prophet of God.

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This is outrightly untrue.

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He didn't have the character of a prophet.

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Why do you say that?

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He was narcissistic, he was abusive, he was

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foul-mouthed.

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Outrightly, he called people bastard children for disbelieving

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in him.

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Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani claimed that Prophet Muhammad

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stated that there was a prophet in India

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who was black-skinned and his name was

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Qahim.

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In other words, Krishna or Krishan, right?

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We are asking them to produce this statement.

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There is not a collection of Hadith on

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the planet.

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In fact, he claimed to be him, the

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very essence of Prophet Muhammad himself.

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He claimed to be the Prophet Muhammad, the

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second advent of Muhammad.

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He claimed to be the second advent of

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Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.

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He said things like, for example, Jesus was

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born just as insects are born during monsoon,

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right?

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Yeah, yeah, he did say this.

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Okay, and he made...

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And he wrote this.

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He wrote this categorically.

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So in case those who don't know Declan,

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Declan is an author, a researcher.

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He has researched the Ahmadiyya movement.

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He wrote a book on the Lahori movement

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of the Ahmadiyya sect and Voices of Modern

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Islam is also one of his books.

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He is very interested in Islam and modern

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Islam.

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So do look into these works and do

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listen to the interviews Declan has conducted recently

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with other thinkers and intellectuals.

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Thank you so much, Declan.

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Thank you very much.

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Okay, in this interview today, we will be

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discussing some beliefs of the Ahmadiyya community and

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how they propagate those beliefs and when they

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are challenged on these beliefs, some of them

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outrightly erroneous, how they respond to those beliefs.

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So it's like an objective attempt to understand

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the Ahmadiyya community, their beliefs and challenges to

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those beliefs and how they respond to those

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beliefs.

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Hello, everyone.

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You're very welcome to this podcast with me,

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Declan Henry and Adnan Rashid, who's a London

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based historian.

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Today, we're going to discuss Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

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and the Ahmadiyya community.

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Hello, Adnan.

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Thank you for having me.

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Thank you very much.

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Thank you so much for taking the time

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out of your busy schedule.

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So I know I've seen all your YouTube

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clips.

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You've been very busy the last year doing

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lots of debates with the Ahmadiyya community.

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How did you get involved in these debates?

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First of all, thank you for having me

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for this interview, Declan, and this is a

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very important interview.

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We want to put out our views on

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the Ahmadiyya community and the movement.

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How we started these discussions and dialogues was

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a coincidence.

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I was at the Speaker's Corner, Hyde Park

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Speaker's Corner, one Sunday, almost a year ago.

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And I saw this Irish gentleman who happened

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to be from the Ahmadiyya movement.

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And I was told that he's preaching the

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Ahmadiyya religion.

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So I was asked to have a discussion

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with him, which I did.

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And this discussion turned into a debate.

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This is Ibrahim Noonan.

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He's the Imam of the mosque in Galway.

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Correct.

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So he's a very important figure within the

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Jamaat.

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I know him.

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Very nice man.

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I had a conversation with him.

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It started as a friendly conversation.

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Then it turned into a debate for two

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hours.

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So we had a two-hour debate, which

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went viral on social media.

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You know, this is the age of social

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media.

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It went on Twitter, TikTok, on Facebook, on

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YouTube.

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People started posting it.

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And before we know, it was a global

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phenomenon.

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For some reason, people were hungry for this

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content, in the English language in particular.

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And then we had a follow-up conversation

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for almost an hour.

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And that was also recorded, and it went

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out.

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So that started the process of this dialogue,

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debates, and exchanges, which continues to this day.

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After a year, nearly a year now.

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But as a historian, did you know much

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about the Ahmadiyya community before you started these

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debates?

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I had basic knowledge that Mirza Ghulam al

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-Qadiani was a claimant to prophethood.

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And I knew basic failed prophecies he had

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made.

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I had knowledge of that.

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I had knowledge of his abuse that he

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had used against people.

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So I raised these questions with Ibrahim Noonan,

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and we had very interesting conversations.

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So from that first debate in Speaker's Corner,

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that stimulated your appetite to delve more into

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this?

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Absolutely.

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And I had to, because for the next

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year, we would debate Ahmadis almost on a

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weekly basis, right?

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So we had to read up on Mirza

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Ghulam al-Qadiani more extensively.

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Then another individual came along, Muhammad Imtiaz.

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Yes, I am.

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He got in touch with me.

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He had already completed his master's degree on

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the Ahmadiyya movement.

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He had read extensively.

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He had pretty much read most of Mirza

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Ghulam al-Qadiani's books.

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So I realized that he has very good

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knowledge of the movement.

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So we got him involved in our dialogues

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as well.

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And since then, he's been very busy as

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well.

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So from the debates that I have seen,

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Adnan, you seem to have put across many

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interesting scholarly arguments.

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So what sort of a response have you

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actually got from the Ahmadiyya community themselves?

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We never get a straight answer.

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The murabbis or the missionaries of the movement

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have devised strategies and tactics to avoid direct,

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difficult questions.

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We pose direct questions, but we never get

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a direct answer.

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Anyone who watches our streams with them in

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the English language, I'm talking about the missionaries.

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I'm not talking about the common Ahmadis.

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Common Ahmadis are normal working class people.

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They are going about their business.

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They are educated people, many of them doctors,

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engineers, highly qualified.

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I know many of them.

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And they are decent people.

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They are very nice people.

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But the trained missionaries, they are absolutely a

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different breed altogether.

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And they are very manipulative.

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We have found them to be very manipulative.

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They don't give direct answers.

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And when they get cornered, they avoid debate

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altogether.

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They completely disappear.

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I'm surprised.

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Well, on one level, I'm surprised.

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Because one of the criticisms that they have

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always put across the Ahmadis that I've spoken

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to is the lack of dialogue.

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This is before you started and before the

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debates online have started.

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The lack of dialogue.

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They always say, oh, Sunnis don't want to

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debate us.

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Sunnis don't want to talk to us.

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Well, this is the ideal opportunity now that

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there are so many debates.

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And they are lively debates.

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They are incredibly interesting.

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And you are touching upon those questions that

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really need to be asked.

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But also need to be answered.

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Absolutely.

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You see, Jacqueline, social media phenomenon has changed

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the dynamics for the Ahmadiyya movement.

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Now they cannot simply ignore and get away

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with it.

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30 years ago, yes, before the internet.

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Absolutely.

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For the last 100 years, they have been

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making these claims that the Sunnis cannot debate

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us.

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They don't want to debate us.

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They run away from debates, which is a

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lie, by the way.

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Our scholars, for the last 100 years, from

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all denominations of Sunni Islam, have been actively

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debating and having dialogues with the Ahmadiyya community.

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They have written books upon books.

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Encyclopedias have been produced by Sunni scholars in

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the Urdu language, mainly, because the cult came

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from, I call it a cult, because it

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operates like a cult.

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That's my personal opinion.

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It was born in India, then flourished in

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Pakistan later on.

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And this is why the Indian subcontinent scholars

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feel more responsibility towards producing works on this

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particular movement.

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And they have done so.

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But the claim that Sunnis are avoiding the

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discussion and the dialogue has been now binned

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since the last one year activism on our

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part.

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Because we have now opened the gates of

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dialogue for the Ahmadiyya community.

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We have streams every single Saturday.

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Since the last year, we have had live

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streams where the floor is open to the

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Ahmadiyya scholars, if they have any.

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I'm glad that you have said that, because

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I was going to ask you, who exactly

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are the top scholars within the Ahmadiyya community?

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They have some Arabic-speaking gentlemen who appear

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to be scholars, who have the attire, who

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wear the clothing of scholars.

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But when we dialogue with them, we realize

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they lack basic knowledge of Islamic principles.

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So, if they are scholars...

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Are they based here in the UK or

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in Pakistan?

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They are based in the UK.

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Some of them are based in the Arab

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world.

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For example, they have one person in Jordan.

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There is a Palestinian person who speaks Arabic.

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So, they parade them around the world as

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trophies.

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Oh, we have Arabs with us.

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If we have Arabs with us, we have

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some credibility because the Arabs know the Arabic

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language.

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Therefore, they must know more Islam than normal

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Sunni Muslims, which is, again, a deceptive tactic

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on their part.

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If you ask these Arab scholars if they

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know the Urdu language, they don't.

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They haven't read Mirza Ghulam al-Qadiani in

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the Urdu language.

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And the majority of his works are in

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the Urdu language.

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So, how can you claim to be a

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scholar on your own movement when you don't

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know the basic language?

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It's like me claiming to be a scholar

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of Islam and I don't know the Arabic

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language.

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Would you take me seriously?

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No, that would be difficult.

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Yes.

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It's like someone who claims to be a

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scholar of Christianity and doesn't know Koine Greek

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and doesn't know Latin.

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Or a Jewish rabbi claims to be a

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rabbi and doesn't know the Hebrew language.

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So, this is why we are yet to

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find a scholarly person among the Ahmadiyya movement.

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And this is not an exaggeration.

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This is not a biased statement.

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I'm being very fair and objective here.

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I'm yet to find a scholar of Islam

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among the Ahmadiyya movement.

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No, no, that was the reason that I

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asked you because I just didn't know the

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answer to that question.

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Obviously, Ibrahim Noonan, I don't know whether he

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speaks Urdu or not.

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No, he doesn't.

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I didn't think he would.

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In my dialogue, I challenged him on this

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question and he didn't know Urdu.

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And he's a convert to Islam himself.

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Yes.

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And Raziullah Norman.

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Obviously, you did quite a lot of debates

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with Razi.

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He's a missionary.

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He's a missionary.

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Okay.

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So, he wouldn't come into what you'd call

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the top scholar category.

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No, no.

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He's a young man.

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He's very passionate.

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He is.

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He's a missionary.

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He is, yeah.

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So, they have missionaries.

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Yeah.

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They have seminaries where they train missionaries to

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respond to the Sunni attacks.

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Intellectual attacks or theological attacks.

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Somebody like Razi, would he not have read

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all of the works of Mirza Ghani?

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He claims to have read all of them.

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He claims to have read all of them.

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Really?

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I believe him.

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I don't have any reasons to not believe

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his claim.

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Now, you've read some of them yourself because

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obviously, you're fluent in Urdu and you're a

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highly illiterate man.

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From the debates, we can see that you're

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ferociously intelligent.

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If you think so, I don't necessarily agree

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with that.

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Well, you have great panache.

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You're very articulous.

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Your knowledge flows.

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But one of the things that I see

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that you're continuously accused of is not being

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able to differentiate between what's metaphorical and literal

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in the writings of Mirza Ghani.

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Is that not a little bit insulting to

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you?

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It is.

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It is.

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It's insulting my intelligence.

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It's insulting my credentials, which is not a

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problem.

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I don't mind.

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You could be forgiven one mistake, but it

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can't be continuous.

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I have made mistakes.

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I have made mistakes and I have admitted

00:12:25 --> 00:12:26

those mistakes publicly.

00:12:27 --> 00:12:31

For example, very often, I mix two of

00:12:31 --> 00:12:33

the sons of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani because

00:12:33 --> 00:12:34

they have the same name.

00:12:35 --> 00:12:38

Bashiruddin Mahmood and Bashir Ahmad.

00:12:38 --> 00:12:40

You can see they have the same name,

00:12:40 --> 00:12:40

right?

00:12:40 --> 00:12:42

So I very often mix them.

00:12:43 --> 00:12:45

But that's my bad, right?

00:12:45 --> 00:12:48

I've always admitted to that problem.

00:12:49 --> 00:12:50

That's only a small mistake.

00:12:50 --> 00:12:50

Exactly.

00:12:51 --> 00:12:54

But when I make a claim, I ensure

00:12:54 --> 00:12:57

that I'm making a claim which is evidenced.

00:12:58 --> 00:12:59

There is evidence for it.

00:12:59 --> 00:13:00

And I'm not just making up.

00:13:01 --> 00:13:02

Because at the end of the day, why

00:13:02 --> 00:13:04

am I doing this work?

00:13:04 --> 00:13:06

I'm doing this work to reach out to

00:13:06 --> 00:13:09

the Ahmadi community, the common Ahmadis, for them

00:13:09 --> 00:13:12

to realize that this was a mistake.

00:13:13 --> 00:13:14

This was a digression.

00:13:14 --> 00:13:18

This was a diversion from mainstream Islam.

00:13:18 --> 00:13:19

This is not Islam.

00:13:19 --> 00:13:21

The Ahmadiyya movement is not Islam.

00:13:22 --> 00:13:24

Although the movement claims to be the true

00:13:24 --> 00:13:25

Muslims, right?

00:13:26 --> 00:13:28

The slogan is that we are the true

00:13:28 --> 00:13:30

Muslims and the rest of the Muslim community

00:13:30 --> 00:13:33

around the world, 2 billion odd Muslims are

00:13:33 --> 00:13:35

not upon true Islam.

00:13:35 --> 00:13:35

Okay.

00:13:36 --> 00:13:38

In fact, we can prove, we can show

00:13:38 --> 00:13:41

from the books of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani

00:13:41 --> 00:13:44

and his son, Bashiruddin Mahmood, where they made

00:13:44 --> 00:13:50

blanket excommunication of the entire Muslim community.

00:13:51 --> 00:13:53

When I say the entire Muslim community, I

00:13:53 --> 00:13:55

mean from Morocco to Indonesia.

00:13:55 --> 00:13:59

All Muslims are effectively disbelievers because they have

00:13:59 --> 00:14:01

rejected a true prophet of God, which makes

00:14:01 --> 00:14:02

perfect sense.

00:14:02 --> 00:14:04

If there is a true prophet of God

00:14:04 --> 00:14:06

and if you reject him, you are disbelieving

00:14:06 --> 00:14:08

in that prophet, and therefore you are a

00:14:08 --> 00:14:11

disbeliever to the followers of that prophet.

00:14:12 --> 00:14:16

So, effectively, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani and his

00:14:16 --> 00:14:19

son made Takfir, we use the word Takfir

00:14:19 --> 00:14:22

for excommunication, they made Takfir of the entire

00:14:22 --> 00:14:24

Muslim Ummah, the entire Muslim community.

00:14:24 --> 00:14:24

Yes, I read that.

00:14:24 --> 00:14:26

I was researching the Lahori book.

00:14:26 --> 00:14:27

They deny it today.

00:14:27 --> 00:14:29

They say, no, we don't actually believe you

00:14:29 --> 00:14:32

are disbelievers in the true sense of the

00:14:32 --> 00:14:34

word, but you are disbelievers in a lesser

00:14:34 --> 00:14:35

sense.

00:14:35 --> 00:14:37

Basically, you are not true Muslims.

00:14:38 --> 00:14:40

You reject the Messiah, the promised Messiah, you

00:14:40 --> 00:14:43

reject a true prophet of God, Mirza Ghulam

00:14:43 --> 00:14:46

Ahmad Qadiani, to them, therefore you are not

00:14:46 --> 00:14:46

true believers.

00:14:47 --> 00:14:49

But we know this is dissimilation.

00:14:50 --> 00:14:51

We know this is dissimilation.

00:14:51 --> 00:14:53

This is hiding their true beliefs.

00:14:53 --> 00:14:55

Because recently I had a dialogue online, it's

00:14:55 --> 00:14:58

on my channel, where I posed this question

00:14:58 --> 00:15:02

directly to the murabbis, including Raziullah Nauman, and

00:15:02 --> 00:15:05

they made it clear that we consider you

00:15:05 --> 00:15:06

to be disbelievers.

00:15:06 --> 00:15:06

You are disbelievers.

00:15:07 --> 00:15:08

So that was a contradiction.

00:15:08 --> 00:15:08

Yes.

00:15:09 --> 00:15:11

I mean, the official Jama'at position is

00:15:11 --> 00:15:13

that, no, you are not true Muslims.

00:15:13 --> 00:15:15

We don't call you disbelievers in the true

00:15:15 --> 00:15:15

sense of the word.

00:15:16 --> 00:15:18

But the murabbis, the missionaries, when they were

00:15:18 --> 00:15:21

cornered, they actually came out with it, and

00:15:21 --> 00:15:22

they said, yes, we do consider you to

00:15:22 --> 00:15:25

be disbelievers, just like the Lahori movement.

00:15:25 --> 00:15:26

It's a bit confusing, isn't it?

00:15:26 --> 00:15:27

It is, it is.

00:15:27 --> 00:15:29

I mean, not only us, even the Lahori

00:15:29 --> 00:15:30

movement.

00:15:30 --> 00:15:31

Am I a believer or am I not

00:15:31 --> 00:15:31

a believer?

00:15:31 --> 00:15:32

Yeah, yeah.

00:15:32 --> 00:15:36

But they declare the Lahori movement, the mainstream

00:15:36 --> 00:15:42

Qadiani caliphate, based in London, this particular movement

00:15:42 --> 00:15:45

declares the Lahori movement to be a disbelieving

00:15:45 --> 00:15:45

movement.

00:15:46 --> 00:15:48

There is another group called Sajpras group.

00:15:50 --> 00:15:51

They are also disbelievers.

00:15:51 --> 00:15:53

There is a Jamba group, which is also

00:15:53 --> 00:15:55

basically a bunch of disbelievers.

00:15:55 --> 00:15:59

So they make blanket excommunication of all people

00:15:59 --> 00:16:00

who do not agree with them.

00:16:01 --> 00:16:04

So really, if you were to believe all

00:16:04 --> 00:16:06

of that, there are very few Muslims in

00:16:06 --> 00:16:08

the world, by their reckoning?

00:16:09 --> 00:16:09

Correct.

00:16:09 --> 00:16:10

Yes.

00:16:10 --> 00:16:14

By their reckoning, by their standards, there are

00:16:14 --> 00:16:16

very few Muslims in the world.

00:16:17 --> 00:16:18

Majority of the Muslims are not true Muslims

00:16:18 --> 00:16:19

or disbelievers.

00:16:20 --> 00:16:20

Yeah.

00:16:21 --> 00:16:22

Which is very radical.

00:16:22 --> 00:16:24

It's a very radical view.

00:16:24 --> 00:16:24

Yeah.

00:16:25 --> 00:16:27

So you intend to do more debates?

00:16:27 --> 00:16:28

Oh, yes, absolutely.

00:16:29 --> 00:16:31

I don't think these debates will stop, in

00:16:31 --> 00:16:34

the English language in particular, because I believe

00:16:34 --> 00:16:36

the cream of the crop of the Qadiani

00:16:36 --> 00:16:37

movement is in the West.

00:16:37 --> 00:16:40

There's still a mountain of questions to ask,

00:16:40 --> 00:16:40

isn't there?

00:16:40 --> 00:16:40

Yes.

00:16:40 --> 00:16:43

I feel it's like peeling an onion.

00:16:43 --> 00:16:45

Once you peel one layer, another layer is

00:16:45 --> 00:16:47

there waiting to be peeled.

00:16:48 --> 00:16:48

100%.

00:16:48 --> 00:16:52

And the more we discover, the more shocked

00:16:52 --> 00:16:55

we are that these are the kind of

00:16:55 --> 00:16:57

things that can be found in the books

00:16:57 --> 00:16:59

of Mirza Ghulam al-Qadiani, and how can

00:16:59 --> 00:17:03

a common Ahmadi, having read these things, believe

00:17:03 --> 00:17:04

in this man as a prophet, but they

00:17:04 --> 00:17:04

don't.

00:17:04 --> 00:17:06

And I'm going to come on to that

00:17:06 --> 00:17:06

in just a moment.

00:17:06 --> 00:17:08

But first of all, Adnan, can we just

00:17:08 --> 00:17:09

look a little closer at the life of

00:17:09 --> 00:17:10

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad?

00:17:10 --> 00:17:12

I want to take advantage of you as

00:17:12 --> 00:17:13

a historian.

00:17:14 --> 00:17:16

What things do you think that the Ahmadiyya

00:17:16 --> 00:17:19

community state about him that are inaccurate or

00:17:19 --> 00:17:20

outright untrue?

00:17:21 --> 00:17:22

Can you think of anything at the top

00:17:22 --> 00:17:23

of your mind?

00:17:23 --> 00:17:24

The first thing is that he's a prophet

00:17:24 --> 00:17:25

of God.

00:17:25 --> 00:17:25

Right.

00:17:25 --> 00:17:27

This is outrightly untrue.

00:17:27 --> 00:17:29

He didn't have the character of a prophet.

00:17:29 --> 00:17:30

Why do you say that?

00:17:31 --> 00:17:32

He was narcissistic.

00:17:32 --> 00:17:34

He was abusive.

00:17:34 --> 00:17:36

He was foul-mouthed, outrightly.

00:17:36 --> 00:17:42

He called people bastard children for disbelieving in

00:17:42 --> 00:17:42

him.

00:17:42 --> 00:17:43

And you have evidence of all of this?

00:17:43 --> 00:17:44

100%.

00:17:44 --> 00:17:46

Everything will be evidenced on the screen.

00:17:46 --> 00:17:48

We will put the quotes up, and the

00:17:48 --> 00:17:50

Qadiani movement is aware of these quotes.

00:17:50 --> 00:17:52

We have debated them for the last year,

00:17:52 --> 00:17:54

and they come back and say that the

00:17:54 --> 00:17:57

word bastard here doesn't actually mean what you

00:17:57 --> 00:17:58

think it means.

00:17:58 --> 00:18:00

It means mischievous.

00:18:00 --> 00:18:04

But my point is the word itself is

00:18:04 --> 00:18:05

highly offensive.

00:18:05 --> 00:18:08

In the Urdu language, the word is harami.

00:18:09 --> 00:18:10

I don't know if you know the Urdu

00:18:10 --> 00:18:10

language.

00:18:11 --> 00:18:14

Unfortunately, I have to use this word for

00:18:14 --> 00:18:15

the sake of clarity.

00:18:16 --> 00:18:18

The word harami is a very derogatory term.

00:18:19 --> 00:18:21

It's basically an insulting word.

00:18:21 --> 00:18:23

If you say this word to anyone in

00:18:23 --> 00:18:26

Pakistan, India, or Bangladesh, you're looking for a

00:18:26 --> 00:18:29

fight because it's a very offensive term.

00:18:29 --> 00:18:32

But they claim that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani

00:18:32 --> 00:18:35

used this word in a different sense.

00:18:35 --> 00:18:37

But then again, the problem is he didn't

00:18:37 --> 00:18:38

use just one word.

00:18:38 --> 00:18:43

He used similar words in different languages.

00:18:43 --> 00:18:47

Harami in Urdu, haramzada in Persian, which means

00:18:47 --> 00:18:49

the same thing, a bastard child.

00:18:50 --> 00:18:52

Durriyatul baghaya in the Arabic language, which means

00:18:52 --> 00:18:53

a bastard child.

00:18:53 --> 00:18:55

Why did he resort to using this type

00:18:55 --> 00:18:55

of language?

00:18:55 --> 00:18:56

He was an abusive man.

00:18:56 --> 00:19:01

He used this language to basically express his

00:19:01 --> 00:19:04

anger and frustration at people who were simply

00:19:04 --> 00:19:06

not believing in him or rejected him.

00:19:07 --> 00:19:09

For example, he had a debate with a

00:19:09 --> 00:19:12

Christian missionary called Abdullah Atam.

00:19:13 --> 00:19:15

And he lost this debate.

00:19:15 --> 00:19:18

He lost this debate and due to this

00:19:18 --> 00:19:19

loss...

00:19:19 --> 00:19:20

Do you know why did he lose it?

00:19:21 --> 00:19:21

How did he lose it?

00:19:21 --> 00:19:25

Well, first of all, he wouldn't debate in

00:19:25 --> 00:19:25

person.

00:19:25 --> 00:19:29

He wouldn't debate talking to the opponent, to

00:19:29 --> 00:19:30

the interlocutor.

00:19:30 --> 00:19:32

I did read that and when I wrote

00:19:32 --> 00:19:34

my book, that was my mistake because I

00:19:34 --> 00:19:37

thought that he was actually a very good

00:19:37 --> 00:19:39

public speaker and that these were actually face

00:19:39 --> 00:19:40

-to-face debates.

00:19:40 --> 00:19:40

Not at all.

00:19:40 --> 00:19:44

It was later that I learned that these

00:19:44 --> 00:19:45

were written debates.

00:19:45 --> 00:19:48

Exactly, and he insisted on having written debates

00:19:48 --> 00:19:51

because he lacked confidence in his own ability

00:19:51 --> 00:19:54

to have face-to-face debates.

00:19:54 --> 00:19:56

Like for example, if you look at our

00:19:56 --> 00:19:57

speaker's corner debates, right?

00:19:58 --> 00:20:01

We have on-the-spot debates, very difficult

00:20:01 --> 00:20:02

debates at times.

00:20:02 --> 00:20:04

We debate with atheists.

00:20:04 --> 00:20:06

We debate with Christian missionaries.

00:20:06 --> 00:20:09

We debate with Jewish rabbis at times.

00:20:09 --> 00:20:13

We debate with Ahmadiyya missionaries.

00:20:13 --> 00:20:16

So you have to debate on the spot

00:20:16 --> 00:20:17

and you don't know what's coming.

00:20:17 --> 00:20:18

It's live, it's spontaneous.

00:20:19 --> 00:20:19

Anything can happen.

00:20:19 --> 00:20:23

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani lacked that acumen and

00:20:23 --> 00:20:27

he himself actually wrote that it is not

00:20:27 --> 00:20:32

for a transvestite to have manly debates like

00:20:32 --> 00:20:33

men in public.

00:20:34 --> 00:20:36

He wrote it himself and for some reason

00:20:36 --> 00:20:39

he indicts himself by making this statement.

00:20:39 --> 00:20:41

He used the word muhannas.

00:20:41 --> 00:20:43

Muhannas means a transvestite.

00:20:43 --> 00:20:47

Someone who lacks male characteristics.

00:20:48 --> 00:20:50

So he is saying that only a man

00:20:50 --> 00:20:52

can have public debates but he never had

00:20:52 --> 00:20:52

one.

00:20:53 --> 00:20:53

He never had one.

00:20:54 --> 00:20:57

He insisted on having written debates and even

00:20:57 --> 00:21:00

with this Christian missionary, he lost the debate.

00:21:01 --> 00:21:02

Am I correct to say that he only

00:21:02 --> 00:21:03

ever had one debate?

00:21:03 --> 00:21:05

Yes, correct, correct, correct.

00:21:05 --> 00:21:06

And he lost the debate.

00:21:06 --> 00:21:08

How we know that is because he lost

00:21:08 --> 00:21:09

his own followers.

00:21:09 --> 00:21:12

People who were with him when the debate

00:21:12 --> 00:21:14

started left him and became Christians.

00:21:14 --> 00:21:20

Okay, and when he was questioned by his

00:21:20 --> 00:21:23

own followers about this loss, he came up

00:21:23 --> 00:21:27

with something very strange, very strange and an

00:21:27 --> 00:21:29

outright lie for that matter.

00:21:29 --> 00:21:32

He claimed that this is not something new.

00:21:32 --> 00:21:36

Prophets always lose followers due to such events.

00:21:36 --> 00:21:38

For example, he gives an example and which

00:21:38 --> 00:21:40

is a lie and he attributes this example

00:21:40 --> 00:21:43

to a very famous Muslim author called Ibn

00:21:43 --> 00:21:46

Kathir who lived in the 14th century C

00:21:46 --> 00:21:49

.E. who wrote one of the greatest commentaries

00:21:49 --> 00:21:49

on the Quran.

00:21:50 --> 00:21:53

He attributes this lie to him stating that

00:21:53 --> 00:21:59

Ibn Kathir wrote that when the Treaty of

00:21:59 --> 00:22:03

Hudaibiya took place between the Prophet and his

00:22:03 --> 00:22:06

tribe Quraysh because they didn't allow him to

00:22:06 --> 00:22:08

enter Mecca that year.

00:22:08 --> 00:22:10

He said when the Prophet was not allowed

00:22:10 --> 00:22:14

to enter Mecca in that year, many of

00:22:14 --> 00:22:17

his truthful followers, I'm using the exact words,

00:22:17 --> 00:22:20

many of his truthful followers left him.

00:22:21 --> 00:22:24

They left Islam which is an outright lie.

00:22:24 --> 00:22:26

What sort of numbers are we talking about

00:22:26 --> 00:22:26

here?

00:22:26 --> 00:22:30

He said many and we cannot find trace

00:22:30 --> 00:22:30

of one.

00:22:31 --> 00:22:33

We cannot find any trace of any follower

00:22:33 --> 00:22:34

leaving Islam at that point.

00:22:35 --> 00:22:36

No, we cannot find one.

00:22:36 --> 00:22:38

Okay, but he said many, the point is

00:22:38 --> 00:22:40

he said many, more than one.

00:22:40 --> 00:22:43

Okay, right, but that statement is not to

00:22:43 --> 00:22:43

be found in Ibn Kathir.

00:22:44 --> 00:22:47

He mentioned Ibn Kathir by name and this

00:22:47 --> 00:22:51

he said to his son-in-law who

00:22:51 --> 00:22:53

was a Nawab, who was a prince, his

00:22:53 --> 00:22:55

daughter Mirza Ghulam al-Qadhi and he was

00:22:55 --> 00:22:57

married to one of the rulers of the

00:22:57 --> 00:23:01

princely state and he wrote this letter to

00:23:01 --> 00:23:03

his son-in-law trying to convince him

00:23:03 --> 00:23:04

that this is not a new thing.

00:23:04 --> 00:23:05

This is not a big deal if I

00:23:05 --> 00:23:08

lost followers because of this debate and he

00:23:08 --> 00:23:10

lied, he lied and we asked the Jamaat,

00:23:11 --> 00:23:11

the missionaries.

00:23:12 --> 00:23:13

Can you produce that reference?

00:23:14 --> 00:23:16

Can you show us where Ibn Kathir actually

00:23:16 --> 00:23:16

wrote that?

00:23:17 --> 00:23:20

Because Ibn Kathir is well-known, is published

00:23:20 --> 00:23:21

throughout the Muslim world.

00:23:21 --> 00:23:23

We have manuscripts upon manuscripts.

00:23:23 --> 00:23:26

We have printed copies in millions.

00:23:26 --> 00:23:27

They handed it over.

00:23:27 --> 00:23:28

Yes.

00:23:28 --> 00:23:29

Okay.

00:23:29 --> 00:23:30

Who handed it over?

00:23:30 --> 00:23:33

The Ahmadiyyas, when you asked them for that.

00:23:33 --> 00:23:34

No, no, no, they did not.

00:23:34 --> 00:23:35

This is the point.

00:23:36 --> 00:23:37

They cannot produce it.

00:23:37 --> 00:23:37

It doesn't exist.

00:23:38 --> 00:23:38

Okay.

00:23:38 --> 00:23:40

That reference does not exist.

00:23:40 --> 00:23:42

Ibn Kathir never said any such thing.

00:23:42 --> 00:23:44

It doesn't exist.

00:23:44 --> 00:23:45

So therefore...

00:23:45 --> 00:23:46

How many times did you ask them for

00:23:46 --> 00:23:47

that evidence?

00:23:47 --> 00:23:48

Almost every time we asked them and they

00:23:48 --> 00:23:50

don't have an answer.

00:23:50 --> 00:23:51

They simply don't have an answer.

00:23:52 --> 00:23:52

They play games.

00:23:52 --> 00:23:54

They try to explain it away.

00:23:55 --> 00:23:56

Oh no, this might have happened, that might

00:23:56 --> 00:23:57

have happened.

00:23:57 --> 00:23:58

He didn't actually mean his...

00:23:58 --> 00:24:00

But who does he mean?

00:24:00 --> 00:24:02

Many truthful ones among his followers.

00:24:02 --> 00:24:06

If he wrote it, let you decide what

00:24:06 --> 00:24:07

he said.

00:24:07 --> 00:24:08

They need to show it to you, don't

00:24:08 --> 00:24:08

they?

00:24:08 --> 00:24:11

No, and we have given them one year,

00:24:11 --> 00:24:13

more than one year, to produce all these

00:24:13 --> 00:24:13

references.

00:24:14 --> 00:24:15

There are many other examples, for example.

00:24:16 --> 00:24:19

For example, he claimed that Prophet Muhammad had

00:24:19 --> 00:24:23

talked about Krishna, the Hindu deity in India,

00:24:23 --> 00:24:25

that he was a prophet of God.

00:24:26 --> 00:24:30

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani claimed that Prophet Muhammad

00:24:30 --> 00:24:35

stated that there was a prophet in India

00:24:35 --> 00:24:37

who was black-skinned and his name was

00:24:37 --> 00:24:38

Kahin.

00:24:38 --> 00:24:41

In other words, Krishna or Christian, right?

00:24:41 --> 00:24:43

We are asking them to produce the statement.

00:24:44 --> 00:24:48

There is not a collection of Hadith on

00:24:48 --> 00:24:52

the planet where we have documented or recorded

00:24:52 --> 00:24:54

prophet's tradition and his sayings.

00:24:55 --> 00:24:58

We cannot find any report that shows us

00:24:58 --> 00:24:59

that.

00:24:59 --> 00:25:01

Another claim Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani made about

00:25:01 --> 00:25:05

the prophet of Islam was that when there

00:25:05 --> 00:25:07

is a plague, you leave the town.

00:25:08 --> 00:25:11

Mirza, in his review of religion, there is

00:25:11 --> 00:25:12

a source called Review of Religion.

00:25:13 --> 00:25:17

It's an Ahmadi source and they quote Mirza

00:25:17 --> 00:25:19

Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani saying that when there is

00:25:19 --> 00:25:21

a plague, Prophet Muhammad said, when there is

00:25:21 --> 00:25:22

a plague, leave the town.

00:25:23 --> 00:25:27

But we find the reality is completely opposite.

00:25:27 --> 00:25:30

We find the Prophet Muhammad saying in an

00:25:30 --> 00:25:33

authentic report that is reported from him that

00:25:33 --> 00:25:37

when there is a plague, do not leave

00:25:37 --> 00:25:37

your towns.

00:25:38 --> 00:25:39

And if you are outside of the town,

00:25:40 --> 00:25:41

do not come into the town.

00:25:41 --> 00:25:42

That makes perfect sense.

00:25:43 --> 00:25:43

Absolutely.

00:25:43 --> 00:25:45

You don't want to spread the plague.

00:25:45 --> 00:25:46

Exactly, exactly.

00:25:46 --> 00:25:50

So the Prophet Muhammad categorically stated that when

00:25:50 --> 00:25:51

there is a plague, do not leave the

00:25:51 --> 00:25:51

town.

00:25:51 --> 00:25:57

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani attributed the exact opposite

00:25:57 --> 00:25:58

of that.

00:25:58 --> 00:26:00

What was his rationale for giving that advice?

00:26:00 --> 00:26:02

To appease the British government at the time

00:26:02 --> 00:26:04

because there was a plague in India and

00:26:04 --> 00:26:07

the government wanted people to leave the towns

00:26:07 --> 00:26:10

to go to certain settlements to stay.

00:26:10 --> 00:26:13

And he made up this report to appease

00:26:13 --> 00:26:17

the government to basically convince his followers that

00:26:17 --> 00:26:19

you can leave the town and go to

00:26:19 --> 00:26:21

another place to settle there.

00:26:22 --> 00:26:23

And he did that for the British government.

00:26:24 --> 00:26:25

Wow.

00:26:25 --> 00:26:27

To support the government policy at the time

00:26:27 --> 00:26:29

in the Punjab region, right?

00:26:29 --> 00:26:31

So this is why Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani

00:26:31 --> 00:26:32

came up with this hadith.

00:26:32 --> 00:26:34

We have been asking them for the last

00:26:34 --> 00:26:36

year, where is this report?

00:26:36 --> 00:26:39

Where did the Prophet actually say when there

00:26:39 --> 00:26:41

is a plague, leave the town just like

00:26:41 --> 00:26:44

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani attributed this report to

00:26:44 --> 00:26:45

the Prophet of Islam.

00:26:45 --> 00:26:47

What we find is to the contrary, the

00:26:47 --> 00:26:50

Prophet said do not leave the town or

00:26:50 --> 00:26:51

if you are outside, do not go into

00:26:51 --> 00:26:52

the town.

00:26:52 --> 00:26:54

That makes such common sense, isn't it?

00:26:55 --> 00:27:01

And there are tons of other examples that

00:27:01 --> 00:27:02

we can give, but we do not have

00:27:02 --> 00:27:05

time for every single example.

00:27:05 --> 00:27:06

I appreciate that, you have given me a

00:27:06 --> 00:27:07

few today and I expected a few.

00:27:08 --> 00:27:11

But there would be literally hundreds.

00:27:12 --> 00:27:15

I haven't counted, but there are tons upon

00:27:15 --> 00:27:19

tons of examples where he attributed information to

00:27:19 --> 00:27:21

the Prophet of Islam and we cannot find

00:27:21 --> 00:27:24

that information in our books or in the

00:27:24 --> 00:27:25

books of hadith.

00:27:25 --> 00:27:27

Another report he attributed to the Prophet is

00:27:27 --> 00:27:30

that the worst scholars will be from the

00:27:30 --> 00:27:32

14th century or the 14th century scholars will

00:27:32 --> 00:27:36

basically disown the Messiah, they will disbelieve in

00:27:36 --> 00:27:37

the Messiah.

00:27:37 --> 00:27:38

We are asking them to produce a report.

00:27:39 --> 00:27:42

Using a claim against the Muslims, the larger

00:27:42 --> 00:27:45

body of the Muslim community, you have to

00:27:45 --> 00:27:46

substantiate your claims.

00:27:46 --> 00:27:48

Where did the Prophet say that the 14th

00:27:48 --> 00:27:52

century scholars will disown the Messiah when he

00:27:52 --> 00:27:53

comes?

00:27:53 --> 00:27:54

It's not to be found.

00:27:55 --> 00:27:57

I'm surprised at that because one of the

00:27:57 --> 00:27:58

things that I find with the Ahmadiyya community

00:27:58 --> 00:28:00

and particularly even looking with some of these

00:28:00 --> 00:28:03

debates, they're very hot on evidence and they

00:28:03 --> 00:28:06

like people to give them evidence, but you're

00:28:06 --> 00:28:07

saying today, you're turning the tables, you're saying

00:28:07 --> 00:28:09

that you're asking them for various pieces of

00:28:09 --> 00:28:11

evidence and they're not producing them.

00:28:11 --> 00:28:12

You see what they do is one of

00:28:12 --> 00:28:16

the tactics they have mastered is the fallacy

00:28:16 --> 00:28:18

of whataboutism, okay?

00:28:18 --> 00:28:20

When you ask them about Mirza Ghulam al

00:28:20 --> 00:28:24

-Qadiani and his shenanigans or his controversial statements

00:28:24 --> 00:28:28

in his books, they present 10 different books

00:28:28 --> 00:28:32

to you from the wide-ranging literature of

00:28:32 --> 00:28:34

Islam or those Sunni Muslims, for example, and

00:28:34 --> 00:28:38

we have colorful literature.

00:28:39 --> 00:28:42

Our scholars in the last 1,400 years

00:28:42 --> 00:28:46

have produced hundreds of thousands of volumes on

00:28:46 --> 00:28:53

philosophy, poetry, mysticism, Sufism and commentaries on the

00:28:53 --> 00:28:56

Quran, commentaries on the Hadith of the Prophet

00:28:56 --> 00:28:59

and books on history.

00:28:59 --> 00:29:01

What they do is they will pick up

00:29:01 --> 00:29:06

statements that are outrightly erroneous from the literature

00:29:06 --> 00:29:09

of Sunni Muslims or maybe some Sufi mystics,

00:29:09 --> 00:29:12

for example, who are describing their mystical experiences

00:29:12 --> 00:29:16

and the spiritual, you know, experiments who are

00:29:16 --> 00:29:19

describing and these things are personal.

00:29:19 --> 00:29:21

They're not binding upon the Muslim community.

00:29:21 --> 00:29:23

They will present those things to defend Mirza

00:29:23 --> 00:29:25

Ghulam al-Qadiani that look at these shenanigans.

00:29:25 --> 00:29:28

Oh, you think there are shenanigans in Mirza's

00:29:28 --> 00:29:30

books, there are mistakes, there are errors, there

00:29:30 --> 00:29:31

are outright absurdities in his books.

00:29:32 --> 00:29:34

So you think that's used as deflection?

00:29:35 --> 00:29:37

100% this is a tactic they have

00:29:37 --> 00:29:39

used for far too long and now we

00:29:39 --> 00:29:41

are telling them, look, if you are Muslims,

00:29:42 --> 00:29:43

you claim to be Muslims, then the Quran

00:29:43 --> 00:29:46

must be your place to go.

00:29:47 --> 00:29:50

To substantiate any belief you hold, you must

00:29:50 --> 00:29:51

go to the Quran.

00:29:51 --> 00:29:53

If Mirza Ghulam al-Qadiani makes a statement,

00:29:54 --> 00:29:56

you must be able to substantiate that statement

00:29:56 --> 00:29:59

from the Quran or from the teachings of

00:29:59 --> 00:30:01

the Prophet Muhammad because he claimed to be

00:30:01 --> 00:30:02

one of his followers, right?

00:30:02 --> 00:30:05

In fact, he claimed to be him, the

00:30:05 --> 00:30:07

very essence of Prophet Muhammad himself.

00:30:07 --> 00:30:09

He claimed to be the Prophet Muhammad, the

00:30:09 --> 00:30:11

second advent of Muhammad.

00:30:12 --> 00:30:15

He claimed to be the second advent of

00:30:15 --> 00:30:16

Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.

00:30:17 --> 00:30:19

So he claimed many things, by the way.

00:30:19 --> 00:30:22

This is another topic we can discuss later

00:30:22 --> 00:30:23

on.

00:30:23 --> 00:30:24

What was he?

00:30:25 --> 00:30:25

What was he?

00:30:25 --> 00:30:27

What was Mirza Ghulam al-Qadiani?

00:30:27 --> 00:30:29

It seems to me he was a lot

00:30:29 --> 00:30:30

of things.

00:30:30 --> 00:30:31

He was a lot of things.

00:30:31 --> 00:30:33

He claimed to be Prophet Muhammad, the second

00:30:33 --> 00:30:34

advent.

00:30:34 --> 00:30:35

Yeah.

00:30:35 --> 00:30:37

Basically, he came up with a belief.

00:30:37 --> 00:30:38

Hold on for that just a moment, because

00:30:38 --> 00:30:39

I'm going to come on to the Prophet

00:30:39 --> 00:30:41

Muhammad in just a moment.

00:30:41 --> 00:30:42

But as a Christian, one of the things

00:30:42 --> 00:30:44

that I did want to ask you and

00:30:44 --> 00:30:46

obviously I think it's mentioned in one of

00:30:46 --> 00:30:49

your debates, you know, he's alleged to have

00:30:49 --> 00:30:52

said really some highly insulting and derogatory things

00:30:52 --> 00:30:53

about Jesus and Mother Mary.

00:30:54 --> 00:30:56

Can you give me some examples of these?

00:30:56 --> 00:30:58

And I know in one of your debates

00:30:58 --> 00:31:00

you were limited because you said he used

00:31:00 --> 00:31:02

very vile and very foul language, and I'm

00:31:02 --> 00:31:04

not asking you to use any of that

00:31:04 --> 00:31:05

here today.

00:31:05 --> 00:31:09

But can you roughly, as a Christian, and

00:31:09 --> 00:31:13

obviously, you know, I think there's 2.4

00:31:13 --> 00:31:14

billion Christians in the world.

00:31:15 --> 00:31:18

Most, any Christian I ask about Mirza Ghulam

00:31:18 --> 00:31:19

al-Qadiani, they will have never heard of

00:31:19 --> 00:31:19

him.

00:31:20 --> 00:31:22

I don't think he's made any impact on

00:31:22 --> 00:31:24

the Christian world, even though he claims to

00:31:24 --> 00:31:27

be the promised Messiah for all humanity.

00:31:28 --> 00:31:31

You know, very few have heard about him.

00:31:31 --> 00:31:32

Well, he came to defeat the cross.

00:31:32 --> 00:31:35

Yes, that's the claim he made and that's

00:31:35 --> 00:31:38

the claim he used from the tradition of

00:31:38 --> 00:31:39

the Prophet, because he claimed to be the

00:31:39 --> 00:31:40

second coming of Jesus too.

00:31:40 --> 00:31:42

Did he think that that was licensed to

00:31:42 --> 00:31:45

actually say, you know, really derogatory things about

00:31:45 --> 00:31:46

Jesus?

00:31:46 --> 00:31:49

He actually did say a lot of derogatory

00:31:49 --> 00:31:51

and insulting things about Jesus Christ.

00:31:51 --> 00:31:56

He actually insulted Jesus Christ throughout his literature,

00:31:56 --> 00:31:58

which is blasphemy to Muslims, by the way.

00:31:58 --> 00:31:58

Why?

00:31:58 --> 00:31:59

Yeah, no, I noticed.

00:32:00 --> 00:32:00

For Muslims.

00:32:00 --> 00:32:02

Of all the Muslims I've met in my

00:32:02 --> 00:32:05

life, I've never ever, ever, you know, encountered

00:32:05 --> 00:32:06

a Muslim that has said a bad word

00:32:06 --> 00:32:07

about Jesus.

00:32:07 --> 00:32:11

And even when we debate Christians and use

00:32:11 --> 00:32:15

accusative answers, for example, we use passages from

00:32:15 --> 00:32:17

the Bible to show them how erroneous their

00:32:17 --> 00:32:19

beliefs are, for example, the divinity of Jesus

00:32:19 --> 00:32:19

Christ.

00:32:19 --> 00:32:22

When we use examples, we are very respectable,

00:32:22 --> 00:32:24

respectful about Jesus Christ.

00:32:24 --> 00:32:24

We don't insult him.

00:32:24 --> 00:32:25

We don't degrade his character.

00:32:26 --> 00:32:28

We don't say things that can be insulting,

00:32:28 --> 00:32:32

but he, if we talk about Jesus, first

00:32:32 --> 00:32:34

starting with Jesus Christ himself, before we get

00:32:34 --> 00:32:34

to Mary.

00:32:34 --> 00:32:36

Yes, please do, please tell me.

00:32:36 --> 00:32:39

He said things like, for example, Jesus was

00:32:39 --> 00:32:42

born just as insects are born during monsoon,

00:32:43 --> 00:32:43

right?

00:32:43 --> 00:32:45

Yeah, yeah, he did say this.

00:32:46 --> 00:32:48

Okay, and he made...

00:32:48 --> 00:32:49

And he wrote this.

00:32:49 --> 00:32:51

He wrote this categorically, you might be seeing

00:32:51 --> 00:32:53

it on the screen right now.

00:32:53 --> 00:32:57

Okay, he said Jesus was born just as

00:32:57 --> 00:32:59

insects are born during the monsoon season.

00:33:00 --> 00:33:02

Okay, so his birth was nothing incredible.

00:33:02 --> 00:33:05

He also said that his birth was nothing

00:33:05 --> 00:33:05

incredible.

00:33:06 --> 00:33:09

Okay, because he denied the virgin birth of

00:33:09 --> 00:33:09

Jesus Christ.

00:33:09 --> 00:33:10

He denied it.

00:33:10 --> 00:33:13

Okay, this is a belief the Christians and

00:33:13 --> 00:33:14

the Muslims both share.

00:33:15 --> 00:33:17

This is a common belief of the Christians

00:33:17 --> 00:33:18

and the Muslims.

00:33:18 --> 00:33:20

Okay, this is stated clearly in the New

00:33:20 --> 00:33:22

Testament and it is stated in the Quran

00:33:22 --> 00:33:25

also that Jesus was born of virgin Mary.

00:33:26 --> 00:33:29

Mary was virgin when she conceived Jesus Christ

00:33:29 --> 00:33:29

by a miracle.

00:33:30 --> 00:33:31

This was a miracle of God.

00:33:31 --> 00:33:34

And this is how God wanted to establish

00:33:34 --> 00:33:37

the importance of Jesus Christ as an incredible

00:33:37 --> 00:33:40

personality because his birth started with a miracle.

00:33:40 --> 00:33:42

Okay, then he spoke from the cradle.

00:33:42 --> 00:33:45

The Quran has verses in chapter 5, okay,

00:33:45 --> 00:33:47

of the Quran where Jesus spoke from the

00:33:47 --> 00:33:48

cradle.

00:33:48 --> 00:33:51

Okay, and also sorry chapter 19 where the

00:33:51 --> 00:33:53

story of Mary is told in the Quran

00:33:53 --> 00:33:54

that he spoke from the cradle.

00:33:55 --> 00:34:00

Okay, so Quran and the prophetic tradition of

00:34:00 --> 00:34:05

Islam, it honors Jesus and his mother beyond

00:34:05 --> 00:34:09

any Arab personalities.

00:34:10 --> 00:34:11

Okay, Prophet Muhammad was an Arab.

00:34:12 --> 00:34:13

Okay, and he came from a very staunch

00:34:13 --> 00:34:14

Arab background.

00:34:14 --> 00:34:17

Okay for him to be praising an Israelite

00:34:17 --> 00:34:18

and his mother.

00:34:18 --> 00:34:19

This doesn't make sense.

00:34:19 --> 00:34:21

Yeah, because when I was doing research for

00:34:21 --> 00:34:23

my first book, I did read somewhere that

00:34:23 --> 00:34:25

the Prophet Muhammad of all the prophets he

00:34:25 --> 00:34:27

felt closest to Jesus.

00:34:27 --> 00:34:28

Correct, correct.

00:34:29 --> 00:34:32

And he even stated that we the prophets

00:34:32 --> 00:34:33

of God are all brothers.

00:34:34 --> 00:34:36

Okay, and do not do not raise the

00:34:36 --> 00:34:38

rank of one at the expense of the

00:34:38 --> 00:34:39

other, right?

00:34:39 --> 00:34:41

So we do not make any difference.

00:34:41 --> 00:34:42

This is a verse in the Quran.

00:34:42 --> 00:34:43

And we do not make, we do not

00:34:43 --> 00:34:45

differentiate between prophets of God.

00:34:45 --> 00:34:47

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani on the other hand,

00:34:48 --> 00:34:51

he stated like I mentioned earlier that Jesus

00:34:51 --> 00:34:54

was born just as insects are born during

00:34:54 --> 00:34:54

the monsoon.

00:34:55 --> 00:35:00

Okay, without any biological wonders happening necessarily.

00:35:01 --> 00:35:02

That's what he stated.

00:35:02 --> 00:35:04

Number two, why would he have said something

00:35:04 --> 00:35:04

like that?

00:35:04 --> 00:35:07

He wanted to deny the virgin birth of

00:35:07 --> 00:35:07

Jesus Christ.

00:35:07 --> 00:35:09

He was a naturalist.

00:35:09 --> 00:35:12

Okay, he was a naturalist and he didn't

00:35:12 --> 00:35:13

believe in the supernatural.

00:35:14 --> 00:35:16

Okay, and why he was a naturalist is

00:35:16 --> 00:35:18

also a very interesting topic.

00:35:19 --> 00:35:21

In the 19th century in India, there was

00:35:21 --> 00:35:25

a naturalist movement going on which was initiated

00:35:25 --> 00:35:28

by a man called Sayyid Ahmad Khan and

00:35:28 --> 00:35:30

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani was influenced by that

00:35:30 --> 00:35:30

movement.

00:35:30 --> 00:35:32

And that's why he expressed some of these

00:35:32 --> 00:35:33

views.

00:35:33 --> 00:35:36

But why he insulted Jesus in this way

00:35:36 --> 00:35:39

was because he claimed to be the second

00:35:39 --> 00:35:40

coming of Jesus Christ.

00:35:41 --> 00:35:45

Prophet Muhammad had foretold in authentic reports that

00:35:45 --> 00:35:48

I take an oath in the name of

00:35:48 --> 00:35:51

Allah, in the name of God who has

00:35:51 --> 00:35:56

my life in his possession that Jesus Christ

00:35:56 --> 00:35:58

will return before the end times.

00:35:58 --> 00:35:59

So this is eschatology.

00:36:00 --> 00:36:02

This is Islamic eschatology, just like the Christians

00:36:02 --> 00:36:06

believe that Jesus Christ will return, Muslims also

00:36:06 --> 00:36:08

believe that Jesus Christ will return in person.

00:36:08 --> 00:36:10

Okay, physically will come back.

00:36:11 --> 00:36:13

We believe he wasn't crucified.

00:36:13 --> 00:36:16

He wasn't put on the cross and he

00:36:16 --> 00:36:17

wasn't killed.

00:36:17 --> 00:36:22

Okay, he was saved against his enemies.

00:36:22 --> 00:36:24

God saved him.

00:36:24 --> 00:36:25

He prayed to God.

00:36:25 --> 00:36:27

He was saved and he was raised alive

00:36:27 --> 00:36:29

to the heavens as a miracle.

00:36:29 --> 00:36:29

Age 33.

00:36:30 --> 00:36:32

I mean, we don't have the age.

00:36:32 --> 00:36:32

We don't have the number.

00:36:32 --> 00:36:36

Okay, around that age, in his 30s.

00:36:36 --> 00:36:37

He was a young man.

00:36:38 --> 00:36:40

I'm not sure if the Hadith literature actually

00:36:40 --> 00:36:41

documents his age.

00:36:41 --> 00:36:42

I may be wrong.

00:36:42 --> 00:36:44

But his life on earth ended then.

00:36:44 --> 00:36:46

Yes, his life on his ministry to the

00:36:46 --> 00:36:48

Israelites and because he was sent to the

00:36:48 --> 00:36:51

Israelites, the Quran makes a categorical statement that

00:36:51 --> 00:36:53

Jesus Christ was sent to the Israelites and

00:36:53 --> 00:36:55

that was his prophetic ministry.

00:36:55 --> 00:36:57

He did his job and he was raised

00:36:57 --> 00:37:00

alive to be kept alive until he returns

00:37:00 --> 00:37:03

and he wasn't killed.

00:37:03 --> 00:37:04

He didn't die.

00:37:04 --> 00:37:07

So we believe right now Jesus Christ is

00:37:07 --> 00:37:08

a God alive.

00:37:08 --> 00:37:09

Okay, how?

00:37:10 --> 00:37:10

Where?

00:37:10 --> 00:37:11

In what conditions?

00:37:11 --> 00:37:12

We don't know.

00:37:12 --> 00:37:14

God is perfectly capable of keeping him in

00:37:14 --> 00:37:17

a comfortable position wherever he wants to keep

00:37:17 --> 00:37:17

him, right?

00:37:17 --> 00:37:20

And he will be sent back to do

00:37:20 --> 00:37:24

a specific job, which is to basically break

00:37:24 --> 00:37:27

the cross, literally break the cross means he

00:37:27 --> 00:37:30

will challenge Christians and show them the true

00:37:30 --> 00:37:34

belief which he preached himself when he was

00:37:34 --> 00:37:37

on earth and he will tell them that

00:37:37 --> 00:37:39

they have been wrong all the way, believing

00:37:39 --> 00:37:41

that he died on the cross, believing that

00:37:41 --> 00:37:42

he was God Almighty.

00:37:43 --> 00:37:45

Okay, he was one of the persons from

00:37:45 --> 00:37:46

the Trinity.

00:37:46 --> 00:37:47

He will come back to do that.

00:37:47 --> 00:37:49

Okay, and then he will kill swine.

00:37:49 --> 00:37:54

Okay, and he will basically lift Jizya.

00:37:54 --> 00:37:56

Basically, this will be the final showdown.

00:37:57 --> 00:37:59

This is Armageddon, basically, right?

00:37:59 --> 00:38:02

And he will kill Antichrist, Bajjal.

00:38:02 --> 00:38:04

We know him as Bajjal, the Antichrist, who

00:38:04 --> 00:38:06

will come near the end of times and

00:38:06 --> 00:38:08

he will be a great trial for humanity

00:38:08 --> 00:38:10

and Jesus Christ will specifically come back to

00:38:10 --> 00:38:11

kill him.

00:38:11 --> 00:38:13

Okay, this is why he is coming back,

00:38:13 --> 00:38:16

not as a prophet to the Israelites again,

00:38:16 --> 00:38:19

because he had already done his prophetic capacity.

00:38:19 --> 00:38:22

Mirza Ghulam al-Qadiani claimed to be that

00:38:22 --> 00:38:25

second coming and in order to do that,

00:38:25 --> 00:38:26

he had to kill Jesus Christ.

00:38:27 --> 00:38:30

First, Mirza Ghulam al-Qadiani claimed that Jesus

00:38:30 --> 00:38:31

was crucified.

00:38:31 --> 00:38:34

He was actually put on the cross, nailed

00:38:34 --> 00:38:36

to the cross and survived.

00:38:36 --> 00:38:37

That's one thing.

00:38:37 --> 00:38:41

Second thing, he mentioned that after he survived,

00:38:41 --> 00:38:44

he travelled towards India and he died in

00:38:44 --> 00:38:47

Kashmir and got buried in Kashmir in Srinagar.

00:38:47 --> 00:38:48

Ages 100 or 20.

00:38:48 --> 00:38:49

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

00:38:51 --> 00:38:53

This is very, very, very, very hard.

00:38:53 --> 00:38:55

Good luck to the person that wants to

00:38:55 --> 00:38:56

debate them on this.

00:38:56 --> 00:38:59

This is very hard to prove the Kashmir

00:38:59 --> 00:39:03

part to this because he states it as

00:39:03 --> 00:39:05

a divine revelation from God.

00:39:05 --> 00:39:07

How do you prove that?

00:39:08 --> 00:39:08

Exactly.

00:39:08 --> 00:39:11

And he's the only person in humanity who

00:39:11 --> 00:39:14

leads a movement like this, who came up

00:39:14 --> 00:39:14

with this idea.

00:39:15 --> 00:39:16

Okay, and on top of that...

00:39:16 --> 00:39:18

I'm glad that you mentioned that point because

00:39:18 --> 00:39:19

I was going to ask you that.

00:39:20 --> 00:39:24

Anybody else has tried to rearrange?

00:39:24 --> 00:39:27

So there was a Jewish journalist who had

00:39:27 --> 00:39:31

written this theory before Mirza claimed this incredible

00:39:31 --> 00:39:33

thing about Jesus Christ and his life.

00:39:34 --> 00:39:38

And for some reason, he also claimed that

00:39:38 --> 00:39:40

Jesus had come to India and died in

00:39:40 --> 00:39:40

India.

00:39:41 --> 00:39:43

And Mirza Ghulam al-Qadiani took that idea

00:39:43 --> 00:39:44

possibly from him.

00:39:44 --> 00:39:47

But there is this precedent, the only precedent

00:39:47 --> 00:39:50

we can find of this theory in human

00:39:50 --> 00:39:50

history.

00:39:51 --> 00:39:53

Okay, so it seems that Mirza Ghulam al

00:39:53 --> 00:39:57

-Qadiani was borrowing ideas from a number of

00:39:57 --> 00:39:57

different sources.

00:39:58 --> 00:40:00

He took stuff from the Sufis, he took

00:40:00 --> 00:40:02

stuff from the Christians, he took stuff from

00:40:02 --> 00:40:07

some Islamic thinkers in the 19th century and

00:40:07 --> 00:40:09

adopted those ideas and made up his own

00:40:09 --> 00:40:11

religion in his Ruhani Khazain or in his

00:40:11 --> 00:40:12

books for that matter.

00:40:13 --> 00:40:16

Go back to Jesus, do you think that

00:40:16 --> 00:40:17

he saw some weakness in Jesus?

00:40:17 --> 00:40:18

Yes, he did.

00:40:18 --> 00:40:20

He had to find a weakness in Jesus.

00:40:20 --> 00:40:20

Why?

00:40:20 --> 00:40:23

Because, look, it is but natural for people

00:40:23 --> 00:40:26

to demand miracles because the first coming of

00:40:26 --> 00:40:31

Jesus Christ was packed with miracles, incredible events.

00:40:31 --> 00:40:35

Jesus, you know, did amazing, wonderful miracles in

00:40:35 --> 00:40:38

the New Testament according to the New Testament

00:40:38 --> 00:40:39

and the Quran.

00:40:40 --> 00:40:42

The Quran attributes some very powerful miracles to

00:40:42 --> 00:40:43

Jesus Christ.

00:40:43 --> 00:40:45

For example, he made birds of clay and

00:40:45 --> 00:40:47

blew life into them with the permission of

00:40:47 --> 00:40:48

God.

00:40:48 --> 00:40:48

Right?

00:40:49 --> 00:40:55

He basically healed blind lepers, okay, by the

00:40:55 --> 00:40:56

permission of God.

00:40:56 --> 00:40:57

He did all these miracles according to the

00:40:57 --> 00:40:59

New Testament and the Quran.

00:40:59 --> 00:41:02

So people naturally demanded miracles from Mirza Ghulam

00:41:02 --> 00:41:03

al-Qadiani.

00:41:05 --> 00:41:07

Okay, you are the second coming of Jesus

00:41:07 --> 00:41:11

Christ, you are the promised Messiah as foretold

00:41:11 --> 00:41:12

by Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.

00:41:13 --> 00:41:16

Now that Jesus Christ has died and buried

00:41:16 --> 00:41:20

in Kashmir, you are that second coming, can

00:41:20 --> 00:41:20

you show us miracles?

00:41:21 --> 00:41:22

And how did he respond?

00:41:22 --> 00:41:26

Well, those miracles that you attribute to Jesus

00:41:26 --> 00:41:29

Christ were not actually miracles, that was mesmerism,

00:41:29 --> 00:41:31

that was mesmerism.

00:41:31 --> 00:41:35

And again, I'm not making these claims, just

00:41:35 --> 00:41:38

because I like to make these claims, the

00:41:38 --> 00:41:39

evidence is on the screen.

00:41:39 --> 00:41:42

You can see where he categorically stated that

00:41:42 --> 00:41:46

these miracles of Jesus Christ were aml-tirb,

00:41:47 --> 00:41:49

he called it aml-tirb, basically in the

00:41:49 --> 00:41:50

English language, mesmerism.

00:41:51 --> 00:41:55

This was not basically miracles, these were tricks

00:41:55 --> 00:41:57

that Jesus performed and people thought these were

00:41:57 --> 00:41:57

miracles.

00:41:58 --> 00:41:59

So Jesus was a trickster.

00:42:00 --> 00:42:02

Wow, okay.

00:42:02 --> 00:42:03

And this is what Mirza Ghulam al-Qadiani,

00:42:03 --> 00:42:07

to get away from performing miracles, or to

00:42:07 --> 00:42:11

actually substantiate the spiritual power of his ministry.

00:42:11 --> 00:42:16

Relentlessness undermined Jesus in every way possible.

00:42:16 --> 00:42:17

Exactly, 100%, that was the idea.

00:42:18 --> 00:42:20

The idea was to undermine Jesus Christ, to

00:42:20 --> 00:42:22

inflate his own character, so that people actually

00:42:22 --> 00:42:25

believe his claim to be the second coming

00:42:25 --> 00:42:25

of Jesus Christ.

00:42:26 --> 00:42:28

This is why he is called the promised

00:42:28 --> 00:42:29

Messiah.

00:42:29 --> 00:42:32

Which promised Messiah is the question?

00:42:32 --> 00:42:33

Jesus Christ.

00:42:33 --> 00:42:35

By the way, the term promised Messiah is

00:42:35 --> 00:42:36

not an Islamic term.

00:42:37 --> 00:42:39

It's actually a Jewish term that he used

00:42:39 --> 00:42:41

to claim for himself.

00:42:42 --> 00:42:47

Okay, in Islam, we simply have this concept,

00:42:47 --> 00:42:49

the second coming of Jesus, we have this

00:42:49 --> 00:42:51

concept, the second coming of Jesus, we don't

00:42:51 --> 00:42:52

call him the promised Messiah.

00:42:52 --> 00:42:55

Okay, Masih Mawud, the term they use for

00:42:55 --> 00:42:57

Mirza Ghulam al-Qadiani is not even an

00:42:57 --> 00:42:58

Islamic term.

00:42:58 --> 00:43:00

It's not used in the literature of Islam

00:43:00 --> 00:43:01

anyway, right?

00:43:01 --> 00:43:04

Masih Mawud or the promised Messiah is a

00:43:04 --> 00:43:07

Jewish term that Mirza Ghulam al-Qadiani decided

00:43:07 --> 00:43:10

to use for himself and he meant Jesus

00:43:10 --> 00:43:12

Christ, the second coming of Jesus Christ.

00:43:13 --> 00:43:14

So that's why he had to belittle Jesus

00:43:14 --> 00:43:16

Christ, deny his miracles.

00:43:17 --> 00:43:19

Okay, kill him on the cross, sorry, not

00:43:19 --> 00:43:20

kill him on the cross, put him on

00:43:20 --> 00:43:21

the cross and kill him in Kashmir.

00:43:22 --> 00:43:24

And amazingly, this is something you have to

00:43:24 --> 00:43:24

know.

00:43:26 --> 00:43:34

His Magnus Opus, the

00:43:34 --> 00:43:40

work he produced and he was proud of

00:43:40 --> 00:43:46

called Barahin-e-Ahmadiyya, it's five volume, it's

00:43:46 --> 00:43:47

supposed to be 50 volumes.

00:43:47 --> 00:43:51

He had promised to produce 50 volumes of

00:43:51 --> 00:43:53

this book or 50 parts of this book

00:43:53 --> 00:43:55

and he took money from the Muslims to

00:43:55 --> 00:43:56

publish that book.

00:43:56 --> 00:43:58

The book was never completed.

00:43:58 --> 00:44:01

It was never produced and the money was

00:44:01 --> 00:44:01

never returned.

00:44:01 --> 00:44:03

Although the Jamaat claims that the money was

00:44:03 --> 00:44:09

returned and amazingly Declan, he wrote categorically, the

00:44:09 --> 00:44:10

book is complete.

00:44:11 --> 00:44:12

I have written the entire book.

00:44:13 --> 00:44:17

It has powerful 50 arguments, sorry, 300 arguments

00:44:17 --> 00:44:18

in favor of Islam.

00:44:18 --> 00:44:22

It has powerful 300 arguments in favor of

00:44:22 --> 00:44:23

Islam.

00:44:23 --> 00:44:24

The book is complete.

00:44:24 --> 00:44:26

I have already finished the book.

00:44:26 --> 00:44:28

In 1879, this claim was made.

00:44:29 --> 00:44:32

Okay, now I need money to publish the

00:44:32 --> 00:44:32

book.

00:44:33 --> 00:44:36

Can you, the Muslims, give me money so

00:44:36 --> 00:44:37

that I can publish the book?

00:44:37 --> 00:44:39

We did an entire stream on this, by

00:44:39 --> 00:44:40

the way, it's on our channel.

00:44:41 --> 00:44:44

And then the book was never produced.

00:44:45 --> 00:44:48

He was given money, tens of thousands of

00:44:48 --> 00:44:48

rupees.

00:44:48 --> 00:44:51

Muslims from all over India sent him money

00:44:51 --> 00:44:53

to produce the book because by this time,

00:44:53 --> 00:44:55

he hasn't claimed to be anything like a

00:44:55 --> 00:44:57

prophet of God or the promised Messiah.

00:44:57 --> 00:44:59

He is still in the early stages of

00:44:59 --> 00:45:01

his claims in ministry.

00:45:01 --> 00:45:03

So his reality is not actually known to

00:45:03 --> 00:45:04

people.

00:45:04 --> 00:45:07

People think he is a prolific author who

00:45:07 --> 00:45:10

is going to produce this great work to

00:45:10 --> 00:45:13

defend the beliefs of Islam and the arguments

00:45:13 --> 00:45:13

of Islam.

00:45:13 --> 00:45:16

So he has promised to produce this book,

00:45:16 --> 00:45:18

which is already written.

00:45:19 --> 00:45:22

And then the money received in tens of

00:45:22 --> 00:45:24

thousands of rupees, which is a lot of

00:45:24 --> 00:45:26

money in the Indian subcontinent.

00:45:26 --> 00:45:28

Did he expect it to be in 50

00:45:28 --> 00:45:28

parts?

00:45:28 --> 00:45:29

Yes, exactly.

00:45:30 --> 00:45:31

Why were the people sending money?

00:45:31 --> 00:45:34

Because they want to see these 300 arguments

00:45:34 --> 00:45:35

in favor of Islam.

00:45:36 --> 00:45:38

But he says he got the 300 arguments

00:45:38 --> 00:45:38

into five volumes.

00:45:39 --> 00:45:40

No, he didn't say that.

00:45:40 --> 00:45:44

He claimed the only difference between 50 and

00:45:44 --> 00:45:45

5 is a zero.

00:45:45 --> 00:45:46

That's what he said.

00:45:47 --> 00:45:49

And again, I'm not making this up.

00:45:49 --> 00:45:50

This is all there.

00:45:50 --> 00:45:50

It's all recorded.

00:45:50 --> 00:45:51

It was a clever answer.

00:45:51 --> 00:45:53

It was a very clever answer to get

00:45:53 --> 00:45:54

away with the money.

00:45:55 --> 00:45:59

So his ministry started with a fraud, with

00:45:59 --> 00:46:01

deception, with daylight robbery.

00:46:01 --> 00:46:02

What he did produce.

00:46:03 --> 00:46:04

He produced only five parts.

00:46:04 --> 00:46:05

This was one of the questions I was

00:46:05 --> 00:46:06

going to ask you.

00:46:06 --> 00:46:07

Was it really highly intellectual?

00:46:08 --> 00:46:08

No, it wasn't.

00:46:08 --> 00:46:11

Unfortunately, it was borrowed information.

00:46:12 --> 00:46:14

And all the good stuff he had written

00:46:14 --> 00:46:16

in this book was borrowed from other sources,

00:46:16 --> 00:46:17

Islamic sources.

00:46:17 --> 00:46:18

It was all borrowed and plagiarized.

00:46:19 --> 00:46:21

So the credit doesn't actually go to Mirza

00:46:21 --> 00:46:24

Ghulam al-Qadiani himself, but to those authors

00:46:24 --> 00:46:25

who had written this information before him.

00:46:25 --> 00:46:27

So whatever good stuff he has written in

00:46:27 --> 00:46:28

this book, and there is good stuff in

00:46:28 --> 00:46:32

the book, he has written it having borrowed

00:46:32 --> 00:46:34

from other sources before him.

00:46:34 --> 00:46:36

But whatever stuff that came from his own

00:46:36 --> 00:46:43

mind is basically below a decent level of

00:46:43 --> 00:46:43

substandard.

00:46:44 --> 00:46:45

It's substandard stuff.

00:46:46 --> 00:46:51

And the Jamaat claims for him to be

00:46:51 --> 00:46:54

the king of the pimp.

00:46:54 --> 00:46:57

Sultan al-Karim or Sultan al-Qalam, I

00:46:57 --> 00:46:57

don't know.

00:46:58 --> 00:47:00

The king of the works.

00:47:00 --> 00:47:01

I want to ask you a little bit

00:47:01 --> 00:47:03

about his works in just a moment.

00:47:04 --> 00:47:05

But I want to come back to Jesus.

00:47:05 --> 00:47:07

I was going to ask you about Jesus.

00:47:08 --> 00:47:10

Why did he attack Mother Mary?

00:47:11 --> 00:47:12

Okay, we're going to come back to Mary.

00:47:12 --> 00:47:14

Let me give you some other examples of

00:47:14 --> 00:47:16

what he actually said about Jesus Christ.

00:47:16 --> 00:47:18

He called him a drunkard.

00:47:18 --> 00:47:20

He did, yes, I saw that on one

00:47:20 --> 00:47:20

of your...

00:47:20 --> 00:47:23

He called him a drunkard and this was

00:47:23 --> 00:47:24

his personal belief.

00:47:24 --> 00:47:26

The Jamaat comes back and claims, no, this

00:47:26 --> 00:47:27

was an accusative answer.

00:47:27 --> 00:47:30

He was using biblical text to get back

00:47:30 --> 00:47:31

at the Christians.

00:47:31 --> 00:47:32

And we claim...

00:47:32 --> 00:47:33

Well, where does it say in the New

00:47:33 --> 00:47:35

Testament that Jesus was a drunkard?

00:47:35 --> 00:47:36

Exactly, exactly.

00:47:36 --> 00:47:40

I found that extraordinary that they think that

00:47:40 --> 00:47:42

the New Testament is anti-Jesus.

00:47:42 --> 00:47:44

So that it would contain these references that

00:47:44 --> 00:47:46

would be highly derogatory.

00:47:46 --> 00:47:47

Absolutely, absolutely.

00:47:48 --> 00:47:50

The New Testament is pro-Jesus.

00:47:50 --> 00:47:50

Exactly.

00:47:51 --> 00:47:54

It wants to present Jesus as some divine

00:47:54 --> 00:47:54

being.

00:47:54 --> 00:47:55

Well, you're not going to find it in

00:47:55 --> 00:47:56

the New Testament.

00:47:57 --> 00:47:59

You're not going to find derogatory things in

00:47:59 --> 00:47:59

the New Testament.

00:47:59 --> 00:48:00

Exactly.

00:48:00 --> 00:48:02

And this was his personal belief, his personal

00:48:02 --> 00:48:04

conviction that Jesus was a drunkard.

00:48:05 --> 00:48:06

And he had relationships with prostitutes.

00:48:07 --> 00:48:10

And the Jamaat gets very disturbed by these...

00:48:10 --> 00:48:12

Is that twisting something about Mary Magdalene?

00:48:13 --> 00:48:14

Yes, it is, it is, it is.

00:48:15 --> 00:48:17

And he also wrote that what was wrong

00:48:17 --> 00:48:19

with him that he was getting his head

00:48:19 --> 00:48:22

massaged by a prostitute who had bought that

00:48:22 --> 00:48:27

oil from her earnings, her illegitimate earnings.

00:48:28 --> 00:48:31

So he said these things in very, very

00:48:31 --> 00:48:31

strong words.

00:48:32 --> 00:48:35

And he claimed to have written this stuff

00:48:35 --> 00:48:36

as an accusative answer.

00:48:37 --> 00:48:39

But then he broke his own principles.

00:48:39 --> 00:48:42

He put down a principle in his writings

00:48:42 --> 00:48:47

that you cannot use such vulgar and evil

00:48:47 --> 00:48:52

language for a beloved of God or a

00:48:52 --> 00:48:54

prophet of God even in accusative answer.

00:48:55 --> 00:48:57

You cannot use such language, but he did

00:48:57 --> 00:48:57

himself.

00:48:58 --> 00:49:00

He broke his own principle that he put

00:49:00 --> 00:49:02

down in his works that you cannot use

00:49:02 --> 00:49:06

such language even when you feel like throwing

00:49:06 --> 00:49:09

back at your opponents and throw something like,

00:49:10 --> 00:49:13

you know, something disturbing as this back at

00:49:13 --> 00:49:13

them.

00:49:13 --> 00:49:15

You cannot do it because we love Jesus

00:49:15 --> 00:49:16

Christ.

00:49:16 --> 00:49:16

That's what he claimed.

00:49:16 --> 00:49:20

But then he contradicts himself directly using terms

00:49:20 --> 00:49:20

like this.

00:49:20 --> 00:49:23

He also claimed that Jesus Christ because of

00:49:23 --> 00:49:26

his birth, abnormal birth, whatever it was.

00:49:27 --> 00:49:29

Okay, he lacked male organs.

00:49:30 --> 00:49:32

He lacked male organs.

00:49:32 --> 00:49:34

Yes, this is what he wrote.

00:49:34 --> 00:49:36

These are the details that are not known

00:49:36 --> 00:49:37

to the common Ahmadi.

00:49:38 --> 00:49:39

They don't know these things that he actually

00:49:39 --> 00:49:41

wrote about this Jesus Christ.

00:49:41 --> 00:49:42

And this is not to be found in

00:49:42 --> 00:49:43

the New Testament.

00:49:43 --> 00:49:46

Let's say, let's for the sake of the

00:49:46 --> 00:49:47

argument...

00:49:47 --> 00:49:48

I've never heard that before in my life.

00:49:48 --> 00:49:50

Well, he wrote this, he wrote this and

00:49:50 --> 00:49:53

he claimed that he lacked because of the

00:49:53 --> 00:49:54

defect in his birth.

00:49:54 --> 00:49:57

Where did he get this information from?

00:49:58 --> 00:49:59

It was coming from his own mind.

00:49:59 --> 00:50:01

Okay, it was his perverted mind and he

00:50:01 --> 00:50:04

was completely making this up in his own

00:50:04 --> 00:50:04

mind.

00:50:05 --> 00:50:06

And if the Jama'at claims this was

00:50:06 --> 00:50:09

accusative answer, show us where the New Testament

00:50:09 --> 00:50:13

or any of the apocryphal Christian literature states

00:50:13 --> 00:50:17

that Jesus lacked male abilities or male hormones

00:50:17 --> 00:50:18

or male organs.

00:50:18 --> 00:50:19

They won't find that.

00:50:19 --> 00:50:20

It is not there.

00:50:20 --> 00:50:21

Jesus was a man.

00:50:21 --> 00:50:22

He was a man.

00:50:22 --> 00:50:23

We know him as a man.

00:50:23 --> 00:50:24

Right?

00:50:24 --> 00:50:26

So, these are the kind of insulting things

00:50:26 --> 00:50:28

he wrote about Jesus Christ.

00:50:28 --> 00:50:29

That he was a drunkard, he was a

00:50:29 --> 00:50:30

man of loose character.

00:50:31 --> 00:50:33

The reason why God did not call him

00:50:33 --> 00:50:38

Fasur in the Quran, like he did with

00:50:38 --> 00:50:41

John the Baptist, he did not call him

00:50:41 --> 00:50:43

Fasur in the Quran because Jesus had these

00:50:43 --> 00:50:45

accusations against him.

00:50:45 --> 00:50:46

So, he is not trying to use the

00:50:46 --> 00:50:48

Quran to justify these accusations.

00:50:49 --> 00:50:51

If this is accusative answer against the Christians,

00:50:52 --> 00:50:56

why is he referencing the Quran using the

00:50:56 --> 00:50:59

example of John the Baptist as someone who

00:50:59 --> 00:51:02

is mentioned as a pure person, someone who

00:51:02 --> 00:51:05

is faultless, for example, and not Jesus Christ.

00:51:06 --> 00:51:08

So, he is actually using the Quran to

00:51:08 --> 00:51:09

justify his beliefs.

00:51:09 --> 00:51:12

So, these are very disturbing things he wrote

00:51:12 --> 00:51:13

about Jesus Christ.

00:51:13 --> 00:51:14

To give you some examples, there is a

00:51:14 --> 00:51:15

lot more, Declan.

00:51:16 --> 00:51:23

Our scholars, Sunni scholars, have written books on

00:51:23 --> 00:51:24

this topic alone.

00:51:24 --> 00:51:26

His insults on Jesus Christ in the old

00:51:26 --> 00:51:27

language.

00:51:27 --> 00:51:29

I am glad that you said that the

00:51:29 --> 00:51:32

ordinary Ahmadiyya does not know this because, you

00:51:32 --> 00:51:34

know, I know one particular Ahmadiyya said to

00:51:34 --> 00:51:37

me, Declan, do you really believe that we

00:51:37 --> 00:51:40

would follow somebody, do you believe that we

00:51:40 --> 00:51:42

would believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was the

00:51:42 --> 00:51:45

promised Messiah and follow him if he said

00:51:45 --> 00:51:46

these horrible things?

00:51:48 --> 00:51:49

There are two options.

00:51:50 --> 00:51:50

They don't know.

00:51:51 --> 00:51:51

There are two options.

00:51:51 --> 00:51:54

Either they do know like the missionaries do

00:51:54 --> 00:51:58

and they basically hide it and don't want

00:51:58 --> 00:51:58

to face it.

00:51:58 --> 00:52:01

The missionaries do seven years training or something

00:52:01 --> 00:52:01

like that.

00:52:01 --> 00:52:03

So, they would have to read in full

00:52:03 --> 00:52:06

every word that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad...

00:52:06 --> 00:52:08

They are taught about these problems.

00:52:09 --> 00:52:10

They have to be because they can't complete

00:52:10 --> 00:52:11

a sentence without mentioning his name.

00:52:12 --> 00:52:13

Exactly, exactly, exactly.

00:52:14 --> 00:52:16

And they are taught about these problems and

00:52:16 --> 00:52:17

how to respond to them.

00:52:17 --> 00:52:19

So, their training is not about making them

00:52:19 --> 00:52:20

scholars of Islam.

00:52:20 --> 00:52:22

Their training is about how to defend the

00:52:22 --> 00:52:23

cult against attacks.

00:52:23 --> 00:52:24

That's very deceitful.

00:52:24 --> 00:52:25

Yes, 100%.

00:52:25 --> 00:52:27

And this is why you don't see scholars

00:52:27 --> 00:52:28

among them.

00:52:28 --> 00:52:29

They don't produce scholars.

00:52:29 --> 00:52:32

And the reason is, Declan, if they produce

00:52:32 --> 00:52:32

scholars...

00:52:33 --> 00:52:34

Well, you have to be constantly on your

00:52:34 --> 00:52:35

guard, don't you?

00:52:35 --> 00:52:36

Exactly.

00:52:37 --> 00:52:40

But look, why do they discourage scholarship?

00:52:40 --> 00:52:41

Why do they discourage scholarship?

00:52:41 --> 00:52:44

Because they know once their own murabbis start

00:52:44 --> 00:52:46

to learn the Arabic language and they indulge

00:52:46 --> 00:52:48

deep into the literature of Islam, they will

00:52:48 --> 00:52:53

realize how substandard the writings of Mirza Ghulam

00:52:53 --> 00:52:54

Ahmad Qadiani were.

00:52:54 --> 00:52:56

If they started to look into Al-Ghazali,

00:52:56 --> 00:52:59

let's say, or Ibn Taymiyyah, or works of

00:52:59 --> 00:53:02

Ibn Hajar, and big names like Fakhruddin al

00:53:02 --> 00:53:03

-Razi, for example, right?

00:53:03 --> 00:53:06

These great scholars of Islam, intellectuals and philosophers

00:53:06 --> 00:53:10

and thinkers, if these Ahmadi murabbis or Qadiani

00:53:10 --> 00:53:12

murabbis, if they were to read this literature,

00:53:12 --> 00:53:15

they would immediately realize that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

00:53:15 --> 00:53:17

Qadiani was a charlatan, he was just an

00:53:17 --> 00:53:21

imposter, and he was a very substandard writer.

00:53:21 --> 00:53:23

A very substandard writer.

00:53:23 --> 00:53:25

So, coming back to Jesus Christ, again, so

00:53:25 --> 00:53:27

that we don't go off the track, this

00:53:27 --> 00:53:28

is a very interesting topic.

00:53:29 --> 00:53:30

So, these are some of the things he

00:53:30 --> 00:53:33

said about Jesus Christ that are outrightly insulting

00:53:33 --> 00:53:35

and denying his miracles, and insulting him in

00:53:35 --> 00:53:37

this language, and he even claimed that Jesus,

00:53:37 --> 00:53:40

to defend himself, when he abused people in

00:53:40 --> 00:53:45

harsh language, using the term bastard child against

00:53:45 --> 00:53:48

his opponents, for example, those people who said

00:53:48 --> 00:53:50

that he lost the debate against Abdullah Atam,

00:53:51 --> 00:53:52

he said, if you think that, then you're

00:53:52 --> 00:53:53

a bastard child.

00:53:54 --> 00:53:55

You are a bastard child.

00:53:55 --> 00:53:56

He wasn't a good loser.

00:53:56 --> 00:53:58

Yeah, exactly, he wasn't a good loser.

00:53:58 --> 00:54:00

But then when people said, how can you

00:54:00 --> 00:54:02

use this language, man?

00:54:03 --> 00:54:04

What is wrong with you?

00:54:04 --> 00:54:05

How can you use this language and claim

00:54:05 --> 00:54:06

to be a prophet?

00:54:06 --> 00:54:08

He said, well, Jesus used this language.

00:54:09 --> 00:54:11

Jesus used this language against the Pharisees and

00:54:11 --> 00:54:15

the Sadducees, so he called them bastard children.

00:54:15 --> 00:54:16

But Jesus didn't.

00:54:16 --> 00:54:18

He called them the adulterous generation, as if

00:54:18 --> 00:54:21

we take the New Testament narrative to be

00:54:21 --> 00:54:25

accurate, he called them, according to the New

00:54:25 --> 00:54:27

Testament, adulterous generation.

00:54:27 --> 00:54:29

That's not quite calling them bastard children, right?

00:54:30 --> 00:54:31

He would be calling his own people bastard

00:54:31 --> 00:54:34

children if this is what he believed.

00:54:34 --> 00:54:36

But Jesus never used this language, okay?

00:54:37 --> 00:54:39

His language was so harsh and so abusive

00:54:39 --> 00:54:42

that today, when we start to talk about

00:54:42 --> 00:54:45

it in front of the Qadiani's, they simply

00:54:45 --> 00:54:46

don't have the patience to listen to it.

00:54:46 --> 00:54:47

And by the sounds of things, it just

00:54:47 --> 00:54:50

wasn't one or two words, it was several

00:54:50 --> 00:54:51

passages.

00:54:52 --> 00:54:57

Declan, people have made alphabetical dictionaries of his

00:54:57 --> 00:54:59

abusive language.

00:55:00 --> 00:55:02

This is what I need to read.

00:55:03 --> 00:55:07

Okay, I will show you an alphabetical dictionary

00:55:07 --> 00:55:10

of his abuse, that runs in two pages.

00:55:10 --> 00:55:12

When you're doing research like this, Edmund, you

00:55:12 --> 00:55:14

get a little piece here, a little piece

00:55:14 --> 00:55:18

there, all the evidence should really be mapped

00:55:18 --> 00:55:18

out.

00:55:18 --> 00:55:19

Absolutely.

00:55:19 --> 00:55:21

And you see the evidence is so much

00:55:21 --> 00:55:24

that his 80-odd volumes, or 80-odd

00:55:24 --> 00:55:27

books in 22 volumes published as Ruhani Khazain,

00:55:28 --> 00:55:32

it is filled with all these things I

00:55:32 --> 00:55:33

have mentioned.

00:55:33 --> 00:55:35

So you can do a PhD on Mirza

00:55:35 --> 00:55:37

Ghulam Qadiani on one aspect alone, his abuse,

00:55:38 --> 00:55:39

you can do a PhD on that.

00:55:39 --> 00:55:41

And I'm not making this up.

00:55:41 --> 00:55:44

I will show you the alphabetical dictionary that

00:55:44 --> 00:55:47

some of our activists have created of his

00:55:47 --> 00:55:52

abuse, starting from Alif, Ba, Tha, Urdu alphabets,

00:55:52 --> 00:55:54

and the abuse that he has used.

00:55:54 --> 00:55:55

I would really like to see that.

00:55:55 --> 00:55:57

Just to finish off this point, tell me

00:55:57 --> 00:55:58

about Mary.

00:55:58 --> 00:55:59

Why did he attack Mary?

00:55:59 --> 00:56:00

It's one thing to attack Jesus.

00:56:01 --> 00:56:04

In order to cast light on the miraculous

00:56:04 --> 00:56:06

birth of Jesus Christ, he had to attack

00:56:06 --> 00:56:07

Mary.

00:56:07 --> 00:56:10

He had to cast doubt on her character.

00:56:10 --> 00:56:13

So he stated many things that are extra

00:56:13 --> 00:56:14

-biblical.

00:56:14 --> 00:56:18

So again, this claim that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

00:56:18 --> 00:56:23

Qadiani was using these ideas or claims to

00:56:23 --> 00:56:25

get back at the Christians, or this was

00:56:25 --> 00:56:27

an accusative answer, doesn't make sense.

00:56:27 --> 00:56:28

You know why?

00:56:28 --> 00:56:30

Because a lot of the stuff he used

00:56:30 --> 00:56:34

against Mary is not biblical, and it's not

00:56:34 --> 00:56:36

even extra-biblical because we cannot find it

00:56:36 --> 00:56:37

anywhere else.

00:56:37 --> 00:56:40

For example, he claimed that, I read in

00:56:40 --> 00:56:43

the books of a Fazil Yahudi, to use

00:56:43 --> 00:56:45

the exact term, right?

00:56:45 --> 00:56:48

I read in the books or in the

00:56:48 --> 00:56:51

works of a Fazil, a learned Jew, who

00:56:51 --> 00:56:56

wrote the story about Mary marrying Joseph against

00:56:56 --> 00:56:57

the law of Moses.

00:56:57 --> 00:57:01

So he accused Mary of living in an

00:57:01 --> 00:57:03

illegitimate relationship with Joseph the Carpenter.

00:57:04 --> 00:57:08

So basically the story goes, which he tells

00:57:08 --> 00:57:11

in his works, borrowing from an unknown Jewish

00:57:11 --> 00:57:13

source that we cannot find.

00:57:13 --> 00:57:15

We have failed to find it.

00:57:15 --> 00:57:17

The Qadiani Jamaat cannot produce it.

00:57:17 --> 00:57:18

It's been a hundred years.

00:57:18 --> 00:57:19

They haven't produced that source.

00:57:20 --> 00:57:21

They don't know where Mirza got this information

00:57:21 --> 00:57:22

from.

00:57:22 --> 00:57:25

He claimed that a Fazil Jew, a learned

00:57:25 --> 00:57:26

Jew, wrote this.

00:57:26 --> 00:57:28

And no one knows who this learned Jew

00:57:28 --> 00:57:30

was and where that book is or where

00:57:30 --> 00:57:31

that source is.

00:57:31 --> 00:57:33

And the story he tells is, and I'm

00:57:33 --> 00:57:37

going to summarize it, that Mary, when she

00:57:37 --> 00:57:44

got pregnant, when she was pregnant, obviously questions

00:57:44 --> 00:57:45

were raised about her character.

00:57:46 --> 00:57:50

To avoid embarrassment, her elders took her to

00:57:50 --> 00:57:52

an old man called Joseph the Carpenter.

00:57:52 --> 00:57:58

So they got her married to Joseph the

00:57:58 --> 00:58:00

Carpenter against the law of Moses.

00:58:01 --> 00:58:04

So Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani uses three terms

00:58:04 --> 00:58:06

here to describe this phenomenon.

00:58:06 --> 00:58:10

Against the Torah, against the law of Moses,

00:58:10 --> 00:58:12

and against the Sharia of Allah.

00:58:12 --> 00:58:14

Three terms, interchangeably.

00:58:14 --> 00:58:18

So this was against the Torah, this was

00:58:18 --> 00:58:21

against the Mosaic law, and this was against

00:58:21 --> 00:58:23

the law of Allah, the law of God.

00:58:24 --> 00:58:28

So in other words, Mary was forced by

00:58:28 --> 00:58:33

her elders into an illegitimate, a prohibited relationship,

00:58:34 --> 00:58:35

which amounts to adultery.

00:58:36 --> 00:58:36

Right?

00:58:36 --> 00:58:38

Which amounts to adultery.

00:58:38 --> 00:58:40

Clearly, if you are not married and your

00:58:40 --> 00:58:44

marriage is not valid, legally speaking, you are

00:58:44 --> 00:58:45

living with a man you are not married

00:58:45 --> 00:58:45

to.

00:58:46 --> 00:58:47

The marriage is not valid.

00:58:47 --> 00:58:50

So Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani wrote this, borrowing

00:58:50 --> 00:58:53

from an unknown Jewish source that we cannot

00:58:53 --> 00:58:53

locate.

00:58:54 --> 00:58:56

And then he endorses it.

00:58:56 --> 00:58:57

He endorses the story.

00:58:58 --> 00:59:00

He states that this story is valid.

00:59:01 --> 00:59:05

And it explains away many difficult things about

00:59:05 --> 00:59:09

the life of Mary and her experience with

00:59:09 --> 00:59:12

this difficult hour in her life, when she

00:59:12 --> 00:59:17

was impregnated by a miracle.

00:59:17 --> 00:59:18

We believe by a miracle.

00:59:19 --> 00:59:22

So he had to start with Mary, cast

00:59:22 --> 00:59:25

doubts on her life and on her character

00:59:25 --> 00:59:29

in order to transfer that guilt or that

00:59:29 --> 00:59:32

character defect into the life of Jesus Christ.

00:59:32 --> 00:59:35

And then do all those things we mentioned

00:59:35 --> 00:59:36

already.

00:59:36 --> 00:59:40

Okay, so Mary basically was attacked for this

00:59:40 --> 00:59:40

reason.

00:59:40 --> 00:59:43

And this is not biblical literature.

00:59:43 --> 00:59:46

We do not find this in the New

00:59:46 --> 00:59:46

Testament.

00:59:46 --> 00:59:48

It is not in the apocryphal literature.

00:59:48 --> 00:59:50

And you need to see this alleged source

00:59:50 --> 00:59:51

to see how valid...

00:59:51 --> 00:59:52

It is non-existent.

00:59:52 --> 00:59:53

It does not exist.

00:59:53 --> 00:59:55

It does not exist.

00:59:55 --> 00:59:57

Unless Mirza can claim to have had a

00:59:57 --> 00:59:59

revelation, the book came from the heavens.

00:59:59 --> 01:00:02

And the Jewish rabbi who wrote this book

01:00:02 --> 01:00:05

basically never published it or it never became

01:00:05 --> 01:00:05

public.

01:00:05 --> 01:00:07

But somehow he found it in India.

01:00:07 --> 01:00:09

And I wonder what language he was writing

01:00:09 --> 01:00:10

this book in.

01:00:10 --> 01:00:12

Because it could only be in Persian, Arabic

01:00:12 --> 01:00:14

or Urdu, the languages Mirza knew.

01:00:14 --> 01:00:15

He did not know the English language.

01:00:16 --> 01:00:18

Amazingly, he had some English revelations that do

01:00:18 --> 01:00:19

not make sense as well.

01:00:20 --> 01:00:21

I do not know if you have seen

01:00:21 --> 01:00:21

those.

01:00:21 --> 01:00:24

So he said a lot more about Mary.

01:00:24 --> 01:00:28

For example, he said Mary was a hermaphrodite.

01:00:28 --> 01:00:32

He also insinuated that she had male hormones

01:00:32 --> 01:00:35

within her body that produced Jesus Christ.

01:00:35 --> 01:00:38

Because he projected the miracle of virgin birth.

01:00:38 --> 01:00:40

So he had to come up with some

01:00:40 --> 01:00:43

mad, some crazy explanation for this.

01:00:43 --> 01:00:48

And he claimed that Mary had male characteristics

01:00:48 --> 01:00:52

or male hormones and her own sperm impregnated

01:00:52 --> 01:00:53

her.

01:00:53 --> 01:00:55

This is what Mirza Ghulam Qadiani wrote.

01:00:55 --> 01:01:00

So Mary was attacked by Mirza Ghulam Qadiani

01:01:00 --> 01:01:01

on so many different accounts.

01:01:01 --> 01:01:04

For example, he claimed that Mary was a

01:01:04 --> 01:01:05

hermaphrodite.

01:01:05 --> 01:01:06

Really?

01:01:06 --> 01:01:06

Right.

01:01:06 --> 01:01:06

He did.

01:01:06 --> 01:01:07

He did.

01:01:07 --> 01:01:11

He was some kind of transvestite slash hermaphrodite

01:01:11 --> 01:01:14

person and she had her own sperm.

01:01:15 --> 01:01:16

She had male characteristics.

01:01:17 --> 01:01:17

So transgender?

01:01:18 --> 01:01:20

Yes, along those lines.

01:01:20 --> 01:01:22

He wrote that and the references on the

01:01:22 --> 01:01:23

screen, right?

01:01:23 --> 01:01:27

He wrote that she had male characteristics, her

01:01:27 --> 01:01:31

own sperm that was within herself impregnated her.

01:01:32 --> 01:01:33

And this is how she became pregnant with

01:01:33 --> 01:01:34

Jesus Christ.

01:01:34 --> 01:01:36

So this goes against the Quran.

01:01:36 --> 01:01:37

This goes against the New Testament.

01:01:38 --> 01:01:39

This is utterly obscene, isn't it?

01:01:39 --> 01:01:40

Absolutely.

01:01:40 --> 01:01:40

Absolutely.

01:01:41 --> 01:01:43

And these are the things the Qadiani Jamaat

01:01:43 --> 01:01:46

does not tell the common Ahmadis.

01:01:46 --> 01:01:47

They know these things.

01:01:47 --> 01:01:49

They know these problems exist and they are

01:01:49 --> 01:01:51

hiding from these problems.

01:01:51 --> 01:01:52

They don't respond.

01:01:52 --> 01:01:54

They don't give a clear straightforward response.

01:01:55 --> 01:01:57

And they try to play games like again,

01:01:57 --> 01:01:58

what about Islam?

01:01:58 --> 01:01:59

What about this person?

01:01:59 --> 01:01:59

What about that person?

01:01:59 --> 01:02:03

Instead of defending Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani, who

01:02:03 --> 01:02:04

was supposed to be a prophet of God,

01:02:05 --> 01:02:09

who claimed that Mary was such a person

01:02:09 --> 01:02:13

and categorically states that there was sperm inside

01:02:13 --> 01:02:16

her that impregnated her and this is how

01:02:16 --> 01:02:19

she was impregnated.

01:02:20 --> 01:02:22

Then we asked them on a stream.

01:02:22 --> 01:02:25

We asked them, can you produce an example

01:02:25 --> 01:02:28

from the entire history of humanity or a

01:02:28 --> 01:02:32

scientific journal where you can show us someone

01:02:32 --> 01:02:36

who is transgender or hermaphrodite or someone who

01:02:36 --> 01:02:40

is like a transvestite, someone like that, got

01:02:40 --> 01:02:43

pregnant by themselves and gave birth to a

01:02:43 --> 01:02:44

child.

01:02:44 --> 01:02:46

And they were playing, they were like, they

01:02:46 --> 01:02:49

started to, you know, I mean, again, there

01:02:49 --> 01:02:50

is no such example.

01:02:51 --> 01:02:52

They couldn't produce it.

01:02:52 --> 01:02:54

Again, they will do this.

01:02:54 --> 01:02:55

They will divert your attention.

01:02:56 --> 01:02:57

They will digress from the topic.

01:02:57 --> 01:02:59

They will go into another question altogether.

01:03:00 --> 01:03:02

But when we ask them specifically to produce

01:03:02 --> 01:03:05

an evidence for anyone in human history or

01:03:05 --> 01:03:07

a scientific journal that this is even possible,

01:03:08 --> 01:03:08

they cannot.

01:03:09 --> 01:03:11

So Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani stated something so

01:03:11 --> 01:03:15

absurd that it's just not insulting, but outrightly

01:03:15 --> 01:03:16

absurd, scientifically speaking.

01:03:17 --> 01:03:18

On top of that...

01:03:18 --> 01:03:19

I'm just shocked.

01:03:19 --> 01:03:22

I'm actually quite shocked by that last bit.

01:03:22 --> 01:03:22

Yes.

01:03:22 --> 01:03:23

I never ever heard it.

01:03:24 --> 01:03:25

Well, this is there.

01:03:25 --> 01:03:26

It is there.

01:03:26 --> 01:03:28

We have discussed it extensively on our streams.

01:03:28 --> 01:03:31

I mean, again, if Christians, if you handed

01:03:31 --> 01:03:32

them a book with all of this...

01:03:32 --> 01:03:33

Yeah.

01:03:33 --> 01:03:34

We have to.

01:03:35 --> 01:03:36

I think we have to so that...

01:03:36 --> 01:03:39

And say, well, you've got to accept this

01:03:39 --> 01:03:40

man as your promised Messiah.

01:03:40 --> 01:03:41

Yeah.

01:03:41 --> 01:03:42

Who came for humanity.

01:03:42 --> 01:03:43

Yes.

01:03:43 --> 01:03:43

Who came for humanity.

01:03:44 --> 01:03:46

It doesn't even stop there.

01:03:46 --> 01:03:47

I mean, he insulted all of the religions.

01:03:48 --> 01:03:48

I mean, even Hindus.

01:03:49 --> 01:03:51

He called, there was a group of Hindus

01:03:51 --> 01:03:52

called the Arya Samaj.

01:03:52 --> 01:03:55

He insulted their women because of a tradition

01:03:55 --> 01:03:56

they had called Niyog.

01:03:57 --> 01:04:00

Niyog, basically in this tradition, when Hindu women

01:04:00 --> 01:04:03

could not be impregnated by their husbands, they

01:04:03 --> 01:04:06

could choose to have relations with other men

01:04:06 --> 01:04:10

by choice so that they can get pregnant,

01:04:10 --> 01:04:10

right?

01:04:11 --> 01:04:13

Which is, of course, not acceptable to most

01:04:13 --> 01:04:14

people in the world, right?

01:04:14 --> 01:04:15

But this is a tradition they had.

01:04:15 --> 01:04:20

But he, using this tradition, he accused the

01:04:20 --> 01:04:24

entire community, in particular women, to be prostitutes.

01:04:25 --> 01:04:27

He said the women of Arya Samaj are

01:04:27 --> 01:04:28

prostitutes.

01:04:28 --> 01:04:31

He used this blanket term to describe the

01:04:31 --> 01:04:34

women of the entire group called Arya Samaj

01:04:34 --> 01:04:35

in his poetry.

01:04:35 --> 01:04:37

He wrote some vulgar poetry on this as

01:04:37 --> 01:04:37

well.

01:04:37 --> 01:04:41

And again, Declan, the list of absurdities and

01:04:41 --> 01:04:43

abuse is so long, that we simply do

01:04:43 --> 01:04:45

not have the time to address all those

01:04:45 --> 01:04:47

things in a short interview like this.

01:04:47 --> 01:04:49

Coming back to Mary, again, very quickly, I

01:04:49 --> 01:04:51

want to say a few last...

01:04:51 --> 01:04:53

Do please, because there's two questions that I

01:04:53 --> 01:04:55

really do want to ask you before we

01:04:55 --> 01:04:55

end this interview.

01:04:55 --> 01:04:59

Okay, so Mary, basically, apart from this, he

01:04:59 --> 01:05:02

also claimed that she was partly to blame

01:05:02 --> 01:05:05

for the accusation against her.

01:05:05 --> 01:05:10

An accusation God defends her against in the

01:05:10 --> 01:05:11

Quran, okay?

01:05:12 --> 01:05:14

She was accused of unchastity, right?

01:05:14 --> 01:05:16

This is very clear in the Jewish literature,

01:05:17 --> 01:05:18

in the Talmud.

01:05:18 --> 01:05:20

We have references, very unpleasant references to Mary

01:05:20 --> 01:05:26

for being possibly an unchaste woman.

01:05:26 --> 01:05:29

And God, according to the Quran, God defends

01:05:29 --> 01:05:32

her against such accusations categorically.

01:05:32 --> 01:05:35

And Allah tells us in the Quran that

01:05:35 --> 01:05:36

she was a pure woman.

01:05:37 --> 01:05:38

She never committed a sin.

01:05:39 --> 01:05:41

She was chosen by God to be a

01:05:41 --> 01:05:41

pure woman.

01:05:42 --> 01:05:45

And anyone accusing her is clearly going against

01:05:45 --> 01:05:45

the Quran.

01:05:45 --> 01:05:48

But Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani wrote she was

01:05:48 --> 01:05:51

partly to blame for this accusation.

01:05:51 --> 01:05:52

Yes, her people accused her.

01:05:53 --> 01:05:56

They were to blame for this wrong accusation.

01:05:56 --> 01:05:58

But she was also partly to blame for

01:05:58 --> 01:06:01

her negligence because she hid this information for

01:06:01 --> 01:06:02

far too long.

01:06:02 --> 01:06:04

His own story is contradictory.

01:06:05 --> 01:06:07

His own narrative on Mary alone, put aside

01:06:07 --> 01:06:09

Jesus Christ, put aside other people.

01:06:10 --> 01:06:14

On Mary alone, his own narrative is highly

01:06:14 --> 01:06:16

contradictory and problematic.

01:06:17 --> 01:06:18

And the list goes on and on and

01:06:18 --> 01:06:18

on.

01:06:18 --> 01:06:23

His insults are outright blasphemous, outright insulting and

01:06:23 --> 01:06:24

disgusting.

01:06:26 --> 01:06:28

How do you think that people like me,

01:06:29 --> 01:06:31

how would you help people like me get

01:06:31 --> 01:06:31

to the truth?

01:06:31 --> 01:06:34

Because, you know, he wrote all these books.

01:06:34 --> 01:06:35

He wrote these 84 books.

01:06:36 --> 01:06:38

I've been led to believe that less than

01:06:38 --> 01:06:41

50% of his writings have actually been

01:06:41 --> 01:06:42

translated into English.

01:06:43 --> 01:06:45

Now, I find it quite extraordinary because the

01:06:45 --> 01:06:48

Ahmadiyya community, they have their own publishing house,

01:06:48 --> 01:06:50

Islam International Publications.

01:06:50 --> 01:06:52

It's a well-established company.

01:06:52 --> 01:06:54

They've published the Quran, let's say, for example,

01:06:54 --> 01:06:56

in 75 languages.

01:06:56 --> 01:06:59

So, you know, they do disseminate, you know,

01:07:00 --> 01:07:05

large volumes of work in different languages.

01:07:05 --> 01:07:09

But why in English, the universal language, why

01:07:09 --> 01:07:13

not publish all his works in English?

01:07:13 --> 01:07:15

And they have the means to translate.

01:07:15 --> 01:07:16

100%.

01:07:16 --> 01:07:19

They had the means almost 100 years ago.

01:07:19 --> 01:07:21

In the 1920s, they had the means to

01:07:21 --> 01:07:21

do it.

01:07:21 --> 01:07:24

But why don't ordinary Ahmadiyyas, and especially the

01:07:24 --> 01:07:27

younger generation, why don't they ask these questions?

01:07:27 --> 01:07:34

Because they are specifically and deliberately shielded away

01:07:34 --> 01:07:35

from this covet.

01:07:35 --> 01:07:37

I mean, Mirza's writings, some of those writings

01:07:37 --> 01:07:38

are highly problematic.

01:07:39 --> 01:07:40

If they were to translate them into the

01:07:40 --> 01:07:43

English language, people who were to read them

01:07:43 --> 01:07:45

as the writings of the so-called prophet,

01:07:46 --> 01:07:46

they would be highly disturbed.

01:07:47 --> 01:07:49

They would be very shocked and disturbed, right?

01:07:49 --> 01:07:50

So that's why.

01:07:50 --> 01:07:50

Look at Muslims.

01:07:51 --> 01:07:52

We have to see this.

01:07:53 --> 01:07:55

We have to really press for those to

01:07:55 --> 01:07:56

be published.

01:07:56 --> 01:07:57

But they're not going to do that because

01:07:57 --> 01:07:59

they've had 100 years.

01:07:59 --> 01:08:00

They have the money.

01:08:01 --> 01:08:02

They're very glad to be done for them.

01:08:03 --> 01:08:04

Possibly, yes, yes.

01:08:04 --> 01:08:06

So if someone wants to do that, it

01:08:06 --> 01:08:08

would be a great service to the whole

01:08:08 --> 01:08:10

world for that matter, so that people know

01:08:10 --> 01:08:13

what the teachings of this person are, so

01:08:13 --> 01:08:15

that the Ahmadis themselves can realize that they

01:08:15 --> 01:08:16

have made a mistake.

01:08:16 --> 01:08:19

Not they, the ancestors who didn't know better,

01:08:19 --> 01:08:20

who were illiterate peasants.

01:08:20 --> 01:08:21

I was going to ask you that, you

01:08:21 --> 01:08:23

know, that in years ago, you know, in

01:08:23 --> 01:08:26

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's lifetime, what was the literacy

01:08:26 --> 01:08:28

rate of Urdu?

01:08:28 --> 01:08:28

Very low.

01:08:29 --> 01:08:29

Was it very low?

01:08:29 --> 01:08:30

Very low.

01:08:30 --> 01:08:31

So who was he writing for?

01:08:32 --> 01:08:37

He was writing for the literati mainly, and

01:08:37 --> 01:08:40

initially people didn't realize what he was, and

01:08:40 --> 01:08:41

as soon as he started to come out

01:08:41 --> 01:08:43

with these claims that he is the Mahdi,

01:08:43 --> 01:08:47

he is the reviver of the faith, the

01:08:47 --> 01:08:50

Mujaddid, then he claimed to be like the

01:08:50 --> 01:08:52

Messiah, first he claimed to be like the

01:08:52 --> 01:08:55

Messiah, Masih-e-Masih, then he claimed to

01:08:55 --> 01:08:58

be Masih-e-Maud, the promised Messiah, and

01:08:58 --> 01:09:00

then finally he ended up claiming to be

01:09:00 --> 01:09:02

a prophet in 1902, right?

01:09:02 --> 01:09:04

Just six years before he died.

01:09:04 --> 01:09:07

So there was a trajectory he was on,

01:09:08 --> 01:09:11

and some scholars of Islam had already realized

01:09:11 --> 01:09:13

the trajectories on, and they had warned the

01:09:13 --> 01:09:17

Muslims about his character and how dubious he

01:09:17 --> 01:09:21

was, but his immediate followers in his region,

01:09:21 --> 01:09:23

in his area, were a bunch of peasants.

01:09:24 --> 01:09:28

Majority of the Qadiani followers, common Ahmadis, are

01:09:28 --> 01:09:33

descendants of those peasants who were from the

01:09:33 --> 01:09:36

Qadian region or neighboring towns and cities.

01:09:36 --> 01:09:39

What would you say the literacy rate is

01:09:39 --> 01:09:41

currently amongst the Urdu population?

01:09:42 --> 01:09:44

Not very high in Pakistan, in India, not

01:09:44 --> 01:09:46

very high, but they are highly educated in

01:09:46 --> 01:09:48

the West, naturally, because in the Western world,

01:09:49 --> 01:09:51

education is very important, they know, they want

01:09:51 --> 01:09:53

their children to be educated, but not necessarily

01:09:53 --> 01:09:55

educated on the Jamaat and the literature of

01:09:55 --> 01:10:00

the Jamaat, educated in medicine, in engineering and

01:10:00 --> 01:10:02

other things, they are highly intellectual people.

01:10:02 --> 01:10:05

No, no, I don't dispute that for a

01:10:05 --> 01:10:05

second.

01:10:05 --> 01:10:07

But when it comes to the knowledge of

01:10:07 --> 01:10:09

their own books, which is in the Urdu

01:10:09 --> 01:10:11

language, most of the Western audience is not

01:10:11 --> 01:10:12

even able to read Urdu.

01:10:12 --> 01:10:13

They are not going to be knowledgeable if

01:10:13 --> 01:10:14

it's concealed from them.

01:10:14 --> 01:10:14

Exactly.

01:10:15 --> 01:10:16

Because, you know, as non-Urdu speakers, you

01:10:16 --> 01:10:21

know, Western converts, and the Africans, we haven't

01:10:21 --> 01:10:23

mentioned the African community, well, they are going

01:10:23 --> 01:10:24

to be completely in the dark, aren't they,

01:10:24 --> 01:10:26

about their writings?

01:10:26 --> 01:10:28

Yes, absolutely, and for the Africans, they have,

01:10:28 --> 01:10:30

you see, what they do is Mirza Ghulam

01:10:30 --> 01:10:34

al-Qadiani wrote some very simple texts and

01:10:34 --> 01:10:36

pamphlets and booklets as well, and they present

01:10:36 --> 01:10:38

those to the Africans, and they are filled

01:10:38 --> 01:10:41

with spiritual guidance and spiritual instructions.

01:10:41 --> 01:10:44

Why wouldn't people find them fascinating and interesting?

01:10:44 --> 01:10:45

Of course, yes.

01:10:45 --> 01:10:50

Because someone talking sensibly about spiritual matters, you

01:10:50 --> 01:10:53

won't reject it, but his shenanigans, what I

01:10:53 --> 01:10:57

call shenanigans, and the controversial stuff, and the

01:10:57 --> 01:11:01

absurdities and the lies, That was what I

01:11:01 --> 01:11:02

was going to ask you, there is a

01:11:02 --> 01:11:02

cover-up.

01:11:02 --> 01:11:03

Do you think that there is a cover

01:11:03 --> 01:11:06

-up in having less than 50% of

01:11:06 --> 01:11:08

his writings translated into English?

01:11:09 --> 01:11:09

I believe so.

01:11:10 --> 01:11:11

I believe some of his writings...

01:11:11 --> 01:11:13

What do you think the community, what do

01:11:13 --> 01:11:15

you think the Ahmadiyya community, what do you

01:11:15 --> 01:11:16

think the response would be to that?

01:11:17 --> 01:11:19

Their response would be no, there is no

01:11:19 --> 01:11:21

cover-up, but clearly there is, because you've

01:11:21 --> 01:11:23

had a hundred years, you have the money,

01:11:23 --> 01:11:25

you have the publishing houses, you're printing Qur

01:11:25 --> 01:11:26

'an, you have translated his books.

01:11:26 --> 01:11:28

You're claiming he is the promised messiah for

01:11:28 --> 01:11:32

all humanity, English is the universal language, I

01:11:32 --> 01:11:33

want to read all his works.

01:11:33 --> 01:11:33

Yes, yes.

01:11:33 --> 01:11:35

I want to devour them, every single word.

01:11:35 --> 01:11:36

Why wouldn't you do it?

01:11:36 --> 01:11:37

Why wouldn't you do it?

01:11:37 --> 01:11:38

This is why the majority...

01:11:38 --> 01:11:39

It's not available to me.

01:11:40 --> 01:11:42

And this is why the majority of their

01:11:42 --> 01:11:46

Jamaat is ignorant of Mirza's own writings.

01:11:46 --> 01:11:49

And look at the Muslims, we have produced

01:11:49 --> 01:11:52

the literature of Islam, all the major works

01:11:52 --> 01:11:53

in the English language.

01:11:53 --> 01:11:56

We have Sahih Al-Bukhari, the prophetic tradition,

01:11:56 --> 01:11:58

entirely translated into the English language, multiple times.

01:11:59 --> 01:12:01

We have Sahih Muslim, entirely in English.

01:12:01 --> 01:12:02

We have other six books of Hadith also

01:12:02 --> 01:12:05

in English and Urdu and other languages, right?

01:12:06 --> 01:12:08

Why wouldn't you do that with Mirza's books?

01:12:09 --> 01:12:10

If he's a prophet of God and you

01:12:10 --> 01:12:13

want his works to be out in public

01:12:13 --> 01:12:15

and you want people to find that guidance

01:12:15 --> 01:12:17

and benefit from it and believe in him,

01:12:17 --> 01:12:18

I find it extraordinary.

01:12:18 --> 01:12:19

then translate all his works.

01:12:19 --> 01:12:20

Why wouldn't they do it?

01:12:20 --> 01:12:22

I know that we're going to run out

01:12:22 --> 01:12:23

of time and I'll have to come back

01:12:23 --> 01:12:25

a second day because there's just so many

01:12:25 --> 01:12:27

more questions that I'm not going to get

01:12:27 --> 01:12:28

through.

01:12:29 --> 01:12:31

One last point I would like to address.

01:12:31 --> 01:12:32

Please do.

01:12:33 --> 01:12:35

About his prophecies, so-called prophecies.

01:12:35 --> 01:12:36

Oh yes, yes, yes.

01:12:36 --> 01:12:37

If you feel you have time for that,

01:12:37 --> 01:12:38

I was going to ask you.

01:12:38 --> 01:12:39

Very quickly we can mention.

01:12:40 --> 01:12:41

I was going to ask you because this

01:12:41 --> 01:12:45

really only came to my attention after I

01:12:45 --> 01:12:50

had completed the book on the Lahori Ahmadiyya

01:12:50 --> 01:12:51

movement because, you know, I went through his

01:12:51 --> 01:12:55

revelations and I tried my best to put

01:12:55 --> 01:12:57

it into an interesting narrative.

01:12:57 --> 01:13:01

I did struggle, and the Lahoris struggled as

01:13:01 --> 01:13:03

well, to get me sources in English about

01:13:03 --> 01:13:05

his revelations.

01:13:05 --> 01:13:07

That was a bit of a struggle, that

01:13:07 --> 01:13:08

part of the research.

01:13:08 --> 01:13:11

But one of the stories that wasn't given

01:13:11 --> 01:13:14

to me, and I have since learned that

01:13:14 --> 01:13:17

it's very controversial, and that's the story of

01:13:17 --> 01:13:18

Miss Begum.

01:13:18 --> 01:13:19

Yeah, Muhammad Begum.

01:13:19 --> 01:13:20

Yeah.

01:13:20 --> 01:13:21

A very famous case.

01:13:21 --> 01:13:24

Could you, if you've got time.

01:13:25 --> 01:13:25

To summarize.

01:13:25 --> 01:13:27

There might be many, many people that have

01:13:27 --> 01:13:28

never heard this.

01:13:28 --> 01:13:31

We have done extensive streams.

01:13:31 --> 01:13:33

We have done extensive streams on this topic

01:13:33 --> 01:13:34

alone.

01:13:34 --> 01:13:36

Anyone who wants to see the details, go

01:13:36 --> 01:13:38

to my YouTube channel, Adnan Rashid, and check

01:13:38 --> 01:13:39

out our streams.

01:13:39 --> 01:13:41

Why is this particular?

01:13:42 --> 01:13:46

Yeah, this particular prophecy was very interesting for

01:13:46 --> 01:13:47

many reasons.

01:13:47 --> 01:13:50

First of all, Mirza wanted to marry this

01:13:50 --> 01:13:53

young man when he was already quite old,

01:13:53 --> 01:13:54

well into his 50s, right?

01:13:55 --> 01:13:56

And he wanted to get married to this

01:13:56 --> 01:13:57

young woman.

01:13:57 --> 01:13:58

How old was she?

01:13:58 --> 01:14:01

She was 11 or 12.

01:14:02 --> 01:14:04

From my research, she was a distant relative.

01:14:04 --> 01:14:05

That's right.

01:14:05 --> 01:14:06

Her father was a distant relative.

01:14:06 --> 01:14:09

Yes, and she was more closely related to

01:14:09 --> 01:14:12

his son's wife, Mirza Ghulam al-Qadiani's son's

01:14:12 --> 01:14:12

wife.

01:14:12 --> 01:14:18

And her father came to Mirza for some

01:14:18 --> 01:14:20

help and support in some land dispute.

01:14:21 --> 01:14:23

And Mirza, in return, asked for him to

01:14:23 --> 01:14:25

give his daughter in marriage to him.

01:14:25 --> 01:14:28

And then he made up a prophecy that

01:14:28 --> 01:14:30

God has already prophesied that this marriage will

01:14:30 --> 01:14:30

take place.

01:14:30 --> 01:14:32

And how old was Mirza Ghulam al-Qadiani?

01:14:32 --> 01:14:33

In his 50s.

01:14:33 --> 01:14:34

He was already in his 50s.

01:14:34 --> 01:14:36

So, from my research, I believe he got

01:14:36 --> 01:14:37

married for a second time.

01:14:38 --> 01:14:39

I think he was 49.

01:14:40 --> 01:14:40

Okay.

01:14:40 --> 01:14:41

He was 49.

01:14:41 --> 01:14:43

Because he got married...

01:14:43 --> 01:14:44

First marriage was...

01:14:44 --> 01:14:46

With Sultan Jahan Begum, right?

01:14:46 --> 01:14:48

This is his second wife, who gave him

01:14:48 --> 01:14:48

most of his children.

01:14:49 --> 01:14:49

Yes.

01:14:49 --> 01:14:51

They had ten children.

01:14:51 --> 01:14:52

Yeah, she was from Delhi.

01:14:53 --> 01:14:54

When I say they had ten children, I

01:14:54 --> 01:14:56

do believe that five died at birth.

01:14:57 --> 01:14:58

Collectively, yes.

01:14:59 --> 01:15:00

This is a separate issue.

01:15:01 --> 01:15:04

With Mohammadi Begum, he wanted to marry her

01:15:04 --> 01:15:05

by hook or by crook.

01:15:06 --> 01:15:08

First of all, he expressed this desire, which

01:15:08 --> 01:15:11

was refused outrightly, flatly.

01:15:11 --> 01:15:13

But he was already married at this time.

01:15:13 --> 01:15:14

He was already married.

01:15:14 --> 01:15:15

He was already married.

01:15:15 --> 01:15:17

He was in his 50s already.

01:15:17 --> 01:15:18

And having children with his wife.

01:15:18 --> 01:15:20

And he was extremely ill.

01:15:21 --> 01:15:25

He had many illnesses, including diabetes and melancholy

01:15:27 --> 01:15:28

and other conditions.

01:15:28 --> 01:15:31

He himself describes he would go to toilet

01:15:31 --> 01:15:33

a hundred times a day, according to his

01:15:33 --> 01:15:34

own confession.

01:15:34 --> 01:15:36

Yes, a hundred times a day.

01:15:36 --> 01:15:37

And he wrote about this.

01:15:37 --> 01:15:38

He wrote about this.

01:15:39 --> 01:15:40

And he even claimed this to be a

01:15:40 --> 01:15:40

miracle.

01:15:41 --> 01:15:44

He said the prophecy about Jesus coming back

01:15:44 --> 01:15:45

with two pieces of cloth from the heavens,

01:15:45 --> 01:15:48

like Prophet Muhammad prophesied that Jesus will come

01:15:48 --> 01:15:49

back in Damascus with two angels.

01:15:50 --> 01:15:52

He will descend physically himself and he will

01:15:52 --> 01:15:54

be dressed in two pieces of cloth.

01:15:55 --> 01:15:55

Okay.

01:15:56 --> 01:15:58

He said those two pieces of cloth actually

01:15:58 --> 01:16:01

represent two defects I have.

01:16:01 --> 01:16:04

One is the headaches, which is the top

01:16:04 --> 01:16:06

cloth that covers the top.

01:16:06 --> 01:16:08

And the bottom cloth that covers the lower

01:16:08 --> 01:16:11

part of the body is basically my excessive

01:16:11 --> 01:16:14

urination and defecation and spending time in the

01:16:14 --> 01:16:15

toilet.

01:16:15 --> 01:16:18

You seem to be shocked.

01:16:18 --> 01:16:19

You are shocked, you are surprised.

01:16:19 --> 01:16:23

But he actually had the audacity to claim

01:16:23 --> 01:16:23

this.

01:16:24 --> 01:16:26

And it is surprising that decent people, working

01:16:26 --> 01:16:29

-class people, doctors and engineers, they believe this

01:16:29 --> 01:16:30

man to be a prophet of God.

01:16:31 --> 01:16:34

He claimed that prophecy for himself and his

01:16:34 --> 01:16:36

defects, medical defects, he used them to be

01:16:36 --> 01:16:38

a miracle of God, a sign from God

01:16:38 --> 01:16:39

for that matter.

01:16:39 --> 01:16:44

So during his 50s, he had remarried for

01:16:44 --> 01:16:47

a second time, having all these children, obviously

01:16:47 --> 01:16:50

not very well, and he was still obsessed

01:16:50 --> 01:16:51

with this woman.

01:16:51 --> 01:16:53

Until the day he died.

01:16:53 --> 01:16:56

Why did he think that God wanted him

01:16:56 --> 01:16:57

to marry Miss Begum?

01:16:57 --> 01:16:59

He wanted to marry this woman.

01:16:59 --> 01:17:02

If God wanted him to marry this woman

01:17:02 --> 01:17:08

or this girl, it would have transpired.

01:17:09 --> 01:17:10

It never transpired.

01:17:10 --> 01:17:11

Why was he obsessed with this woman?

01:17:12 --> 01:17:14

He felt that he wants to marry a

01:17:14 --> 01:17:15

young woman.

01:17:15 --> 01:17:17

Clearly, because this happened when her father...

01:17:18 --> 01:17:18

An old man's love.

01:17:19 --> 01:17:19

Possibly.

01:17:20 --> 01:17:23

That's what Anthony Chalaputh calls it.

01:17:23 --> 01:17:24

It's anyone's guess.

01:17:25 --> 01:17:31

So the way he went about it was

01:17:31 --> 01:17:32

very indecent.

01:17:32 --> 01:17:37

For example, he published pamphlets and advertisements on

01:17:37 --> 01:17:41

her, mentioning her name publicly, dragging her name

01:17:41 --> 01:17:43

publicly that this woman will be married to

01:17:43 --> 01:17:43

me.

01:17:44 --> 01:17:47

This is an unchanging destiny from God.

01:17:47 --> 01:17:48

This destiny cannot change.

01:17:49 --> 01:17:49

It cannot be averted.

01:17:49 --> 01:17:51

It can be delayed, but it will never

01:17:51 --> 01:17:52

be averted.

01:17:52 --> 01:17:55

She will marry me before I die.

01:17:55 --> 01:17:57

And he kept saying this until the day

01:17:57 --> 01:17:57

he died.

01:17:58 --> 01:18:01

Days before he died, he had mentioned this,

01:18:01 --> 01:18:02

that it will be fulfilled.

01:18:03 --> 01:18:04

And he died in Lahore, didn't he?

01:18:04 --> 01:18:06

He died in Lahore, and it never happened.

01:18:06 --> 01:18:07

It never happened.

01:18:08 --> 01:18:11

And the worst part, Declan, is that he

01:18:11 --> 01:18:13

said, it is unchanging destiny.

01:18:14 --> 01:18:15

Taqbeer-e-mubram.

01:18:15 --> 01:18:16

This is the word he used.

01:18:16 --> 01:18:17

This is the term he used.

01:18:17 --> 01:18:19

That it cannot be averted.

01:18:19 --> 01:18:20

It will happen.

01:18:20 --> 01:18:22

And you know how he went about trying

01:18:22 --> 01:18:23

to do it?

01:18:23 --> 01:18:24

He blackmailed people.

01:18:24 --> 01:18:26

He blackmailed his own son.

01:18:27 --> 01:18:29

He told his son that if your wife

01:18:29 --> 01:18:32

does not talk to her family to convince

01:18:32 --> 01:18:34

them to give this girl to me in

01:18:34 --> 01:18:36

marriage, she will be divorced.

01:18:37 --> 01:18:39

And he forced his son to divorce her.

01:18:39 --> 01:18:41

He forced his son and his son was

01:18:41 --> 01:18:42

refusing to divorce her.

01:18:42 --> 01:18:44

This actually occurred.

01:18:44 --> 01:18:46

So he was trying to make this marriage

01:18:46 --> 01:18:48

happen by hook or by crook.

01:18:48 --> 01:18:49

Not that God had anything to do with

01:18:49 --> 01:18:49

it.

01:18:49 --> 01:18:51

He wanted to do it, but he put

01:18:51 --> 01:18:52

it all on God.

01:18:53 --> 01:18:54

And it doesn't stop there, Declan.

01:18:54 --> 01:18:55

This is one example.

01:18:55 --> 01:18:57

And many people, by the way, left him.

01:18:58 --> 01:19:02

So as they say, apostatized from his cult

01:19:02 --> 01:19:04

and religion, came back to mainstream Islam after

01:19:04 --> 01:19:05

they saw what happened, right?

01:19:06 --> 01:19:08

Because of his behavior towards this girl, this

01:19:08 --> 01:19:12

innocent young girl, and how it wasn't fulfilled,

01:19:12 --> 01:19:13

his so-called prophecy.

01:19:14 --> 01:19:15

Also, there are other things he mentioned.

01:19:15 --> 01:19:20

For example, he said that God has extended

01:19:20 --> 01:19:24

his life to a certain period and God

01:19:24 --> 01:19:27

has told me specifically that he will live

01:19:27 --> 01:19:31

longer than 14 months from July 1907.

01:19:31 --> 01:19:33

This was against one of his opponents who

01:19:33 --> 01:19:38

had prophesied similarly to him that he will

01:19:38 --> 01:19:39

die within the next 14 months.

01:19:39 --> 01:19:44

Mirza responded in July 1907 saying God has

01:19:44 --> 01:19:49

told me directly that I will outlive 14

01:19:49 --> 01:19:50

months from July 1907.

01:19:51 --> 01:19:54

He dies in May 1908, 26th of May

01:19:54 --> 01:19:54

1908.

01:19:55 --> 01:19:56

He dies within nine months.

01:19:56 --> 01:19:58

So clearly God didn't know what he was

01:19:58 --> 01:19:58

talking about.

01:19:59 --> 01:20:02

God, I mean, they come back and say

01:20:02 --> 01:20:04

no, this happened because the man who challenged

01:20:04 --> 01:20:06

him changed his mind, Abdullah Kim Patialvi.

01:20:07 --> 01:20:07

He changed his mind.

01:20:07 --> 01:20:10

But my question is, did God know that

01:20:10 --> 01:20:12

Abdullah Kim Patialvi will change his mind?

01:20:13 --> 01:20:15

And if he knew, why did God tell

01:20:15 --> 01:20:17

Mirza that he will outlive 14 months from

01:20:17 --> 01:20:19

July 1907?

01:20:19 --> 01:20:21

This is God playing games, God not knowing

01:20:21 --> 01:20:21

what he's doing.

01:20:21 --> 01:20:22

God is not organized.

01:20:22 --> 01:20:24

But Miss Begum's husband lived, didn't he?

01:20:25 --> 01:20:25

He didn't die.

01:20:25 --> 01:20:30

He was also prophesied to die.

01:20:31 --> 01:20:34

Basically Mirza Ghulam al-Qadiani said if she

01:20:34 --> 01:20:37

is married to someone else, Mohammadi Begum, then

01:20:37 --> 01:20:40

her father will die and her husband will

01:20:40 --> 01:20:41

die.

01:20:41 --> 01:20:44

So for argument's sake, if this young woman,

01:20:44 --> 01:20:45

if her husband did die.

01:20:46 --> 01:20:46

He didn't die.

01:20:47 --> 01:20:47

He didn't die.

01:20:47 --> 01:20:50

But if he did die, he was going

01:20:50 --> 01:20:51

to marry her.

01:20:51 --> 01:20:52

So what was he going to do with

01:20:52 --> 01:20:53

his wife and children?

01:20:54 --> 01:20:57

He was still waiting for her to be

01:20:57 --> 01:20:57

married to him.

01:20:58 --> 01:20:59

He was waiting for him to die.

01:20:59 --> 01:21:00

But what would he have done with his

01:21:00 --> 01:21:01

wife?

01:21:01 --> 01:21:03

His own wife, because at that stage he

01:21:03 --> 01:21:06

had been married, having all these children, 10

01:21:06 --> 01:21:07

children, one a year.

01:21:08 --> 01:21:11

To his own children, Mirza's own children.

01:21:11 --> 01:21:13

He was a prophet of God.

01:21:13 --> 01:21:17

He could have had many wives.

01:21:17 --> 01:21:20

You know, so the issue was how he

01:21:20 --> 01:21:21

went about it.

01:21:21 --> 01:21:25

So first the prophecy, half the prophecy was

01:21:25 --> 01:21:27

fulfilled because her father died within that time.

01:21:28 --> 01:21:31

But her husband Sultan Beg lived for another

01:21:31 --> 01:21:35

40 years and Mirza prophesied that he will

01:21:35 --> 01:21:36

also die within three years.

01:21:37 --> 01:21:37

He didn't die.

01:21:37 --> 01:21:40

And when people went back to him asking

01:21:40 --> 01:21:42

him, okay, the father died within the time

01:21:42 --> 01:21:43

because he was an old man.

01:21:43 --> 01:21:44

He was already dying.

01:21:44 --> 01:21:47

Okay, it's only common sense that he will

01:21:47 --> 01:21:49

die soon because he was already elderly and

01:21:49 --> 01:21:50

he was quite ill.

01:21:51 --> 01:21:53

But this guy who was a young man,

01:21:54 --> 01:21:54

why didn't he die?

01:21:55 --> 01:21:57

Mirza said, well, he changed his mind.

01:21:57 --> 01:21:59

He repented.

01:21:59 --> 01:22:00

Repented for what?

01:22:01 --> 01:22:01

Exactly.

01:22:01 --> 01:22:02

Repented for what?

01:22:02 --> 01:22:05

If he repented, in that case, he should

01:22:05 --> 01:22:07

have divorced Mohammadi Begum so that Mirza's prophecy

01:22:07 --> 01:22:08

can be fulfilled.

01:22:08 --> 01:22:09

He never divorced her.

01:22:09 --> 01:22:11

He had children with her and they both

01:22:11 --> 01:22:13

died disbelieving in Mirza.

01:22:13 --> 01:22:15

Mohammadi Begum and Sultan Beg died Muslims.

01:22:16 --> 01:22:17

They didn't believe in Mirza Ghulam Kaliani.

01:22:18 --> 01:22:22

Okay, so to summarize, these are only two

01:22:22 --> 01:22:24

examples I gave you, his failed prophecies.

01:22:24 --> 01:22:28

There's a long list, long list of these

01:22:28 --> 01:22:29

failed prophecies that we have discussed.

01:22:29 --> 01:22:31

For example, Abdullah Atam, the man he debated,

01:22:31 --> 01:22:35

the Christian missionary, he stated that he will

01:22:35 --> 01:22:37

die on a certain date.

01:22:38 --> 01:22:39

He didn't die.

01:22:39 --> 01:22:42

He outlived that date for by many months,

01:22:42 --> 01:22:43

actually two years, if I'm not mistaken.

01:22:44 --> 01:22:47

And on that day when he was supposed

01:22:47 --> 01:22:51

to die in Qadian, people were basically doing

01:22:51 --> 01:22:55

religious, you know, spiritual gatherings and praying for

01:22:55 --> 01:22:58

his death and Mirza actually did some ritual.

01:22:58 --> 01:23:01

He took some chickpeas and blew on them

01:23:01 --> 01:23:02

something and he threw them in a well

01:23:02 --> 01:23:05

and he said don't look back and this

01:23:05 --> 01:23:06

was to kill him.

01:23:06 --> 01:23:08

This was to kill Abdullah Atam.

01:23:08 --> 01:23:09

Maybe it was a magical ritual or maybe

01:23:09 --> 01:23:12

some kind of spiritual shenanigans he tried to

01:23:12 --> 01:23:13

do to Abdullah Atam.

01:23:13 --> 01:23:17

Abdullah Atam outlived and many people actually his

01:23:17 --> 01:23:20

opponents celebrated and again many people apostatized.

01:23:20 --> 01:23:22

So if Mirza was a true prophet of

01:23:22 --> 01:23:24

God, a lot of these prophecies would have

01:23:24 --> 01:23:25

been fulfilled and he would have had a

01:23:25 --> 01:23:26

lot more followers today.

01:23:26 --> 01:23:28

Just to finish off on the story of

01:23:28 --> 01:23:30

Miss Begum, What is the response of the

01:23:30 --> 01:23:31

Ahmadiyya community for this?

01:23:31 --> 01:23:33

There's no, I mean when we asked them

01:23:33 --> 01:23:38

if this was unchanging destiny and it never

01:23:38 --> 01:23:43

happened, why did Mirza not get married to

01:23:43 --> 01:23:43

her?

01:23:43 --> 01:23:45

They say all the marriage took place spiritually

01:23:45 --> 01:23:46

in the heavens.

01:23:46 --> 01:23:49

So this was again metaphorical spin.

01:23:49 --> 01:23:52

This was a metaphorical marriage that happened with

01:23:52 --> 01:23:54

God, inside of God they were both married

01:23:54 --> 01:23:55

spiritually.

01:23:55 --> 01:23:57

Okay, that's one response.

01:23:57 --> 01:24:00

The other response is that oh, you know,

01:24:00 --> 01:24:04

it didn't happen because God changed his mind,

01:24:05 --> 01:24:06

simply God changed his mind.

01:24:07 --> 01:24:10

Okay, so there are many responses they give

01:24:10 --> 01:24:10

to this.

01:24:11 --> 01:24:14

Okay, and they come back with many complicated

01:24:14 --> 01:24:18

arguments, try to deliberately try to complicate things

01:24:18 --> 01:24:20

or look at this aspect, look at that

01:24:20 --> 01:24:22

aspect, look at this angle, look at that

01:24:22 --> 01:24:25

angle to basically build a narrative to convince

01:24:25 --> 01:24:27

people that it wasn't that bad.

01:24:28 --> 01:24:30

But actually Mirza, when he said it's unchanging

01:24:30 --> 01:24:37

destiny, the essence of the prophecy is unchanging

01:24:37 --> 01:24:38

destiny and what was the essence of the

01:24:38 --> 01:24:39

prophecy?

01:24:39 --> 01:24:43

I will marry Mohammadi Begum, full stop, and

01:24:43 --> 01:24:43

it never happened.

01:24:43 --> 01:24:44

And he didn't marry her.

01:24:44 --> 01:24:45

It didn't happen.

01:24:45 --> 01:24:46

And then we've got to leave it at

01:24:46 --> 01:24:47

that for today.

01:24:47 --> 01:24:49

There's still lots of questions.

01:24:49 --> 01:24:51

I've been unable to ask you, time has

01:24:51 --> 01:24:52

run out.

01:24:52 --> 01:24:52

We can do it again.

01:24:52 --> 01:24:54

We'll have to come back a second time.

01:24:54 --> 01:24:56

But for today, thank you very much indeed.

01:24:56 --> 01:24:56

Thank you so much.

01:24:57 --> 01:24:58

My pleasure.

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