Is Jesus God – Samuel Green

Adnan Rashid


Channel: Adnan Rashid

File Size: 88.13MB

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Welcome along to the second of two interfaith dialogues between Samuel green and Adnan Rashid. The first dialogue happened at Curtin University on Saturday night on the topic is Mohammed foothold in the Bible. Tonight the question being discussed is, is Jesus God?

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My name is Ben, I'll be your moderator for the evening. It's great to have you here.

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I should let you know at the start that the dialogue is being recorded. So I'd asked you not to call out or interject. But to save your questions or comments for the question time later on. I'd also ask you, if you have a mobile phone with you, could you set it to silent place so that we don't interrupt our speakers?

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I'm going to invite Tim Wise from the Christian Union, up to introduce himself and the Christian Union. And I'll invite him via to introduce both the S Saif initiative, and to welcome us on behalf of the Islamic Council and to introduce the speakers. So would you please welcome Tim Wise and Hamad via

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Hey, everyone, my name is Tim. I'm the president of CWA Christian Union. We are a guild affiliated club on campus.

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And I'm one of the CO hosts of this event. We have about 200 members and we run all sorts of events on campus for Christian students, and for students interested in Christianity. And everything we do. Our aim is to proclaim Jesus as God on campus.

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It's awesome. How many of you have turned up tonight, and are really invested in having interfaith dialogue. We have this not be a one off event. But the start of ongoing discussion between Muslims and Christians at CWA. I encourage everyone to use this opportunity to ask someone from other faiths about what they believe and to share your own in the heart of meaningful progress between Christians and Muslims.

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If after this not you'd like to explore Christianity further or read the prophets and gospels for yourself. I want to share with you two ways you can do that right place to start would be to grab one of the gospels of Matthew, which you can find for free on Sam stole, grab a Christian student and read through the Gospels together. Another way you can get involved is to come along to our public meetings, which are at one o'clock on every Tuesday in this very room. We have talks from one of the Torah, Psalms, prophets and gospels every week. If you want to know more about CWA Christian Union, you can like us on Facebook or go to our website. I hope you have a good evening, good

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evening, and that you get to be part of the dialogue to

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a Salam or aleikum wa rahmatullah wa barakato.

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Which means May the peace, mercy and blessings of God be upon us. So, first and foremost, always due to God who has gathered us here today? And we ask that he continually blesses us. And we ask that he helps us in our search for the truth, because that is what tonight is, after all, search for the truth. We are here today to discuss is Jesus God? And this is a question that has been asked by Muslims, Jews, Christians and atheists alike.

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You can even say that despite some, even though we have a lot of similarities between us in Islam and Christianity, the divinity of Jesus Christ, the beloved Messiah is the fundamental difference between Muslims and Christians. We are safe initiative are very proud to co host this event. And we feel that platforms are needed like this in order to understand each other's faith. I would also like to welcome some very distinguished guests we have from African Muslims Australia Dr. Relative Junaid from the Islamic Council of Western Australia. We have brother as a way to sell it and shave a sham or bait who is the Imam of rivervale Masjid. With that being said, I'd like to now introduce

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both of the speakers. So first I'll introduce Samuel green.

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Samuel green became a Christian while at university and has been involved in various Christian ministries. Since 1999. He has worked with the Australian fellowship of evangelical students has a campus campus evangelists and Islamic engagement director. He is also a writer for The answering Islam website, and that Anglican interfaith chaplain, engaging

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with Islam is one of Samuels main interests. And he does this through writing, training, evangelism lectures and debates. He has degrees in theology and chemical engineering. So that's Samuel Greene. And our first speaker, after I'm done will be Adnan Rashid. So I've nanosheet is an international international lecturer from London, who specializes in Muslim history and Islamic numismatics, which is basically collecting coins. he attained his bachelor's with history, with honors from Berbick Birkbeck college and completed his master's from the School of Oriental and African Studies. He is currently pursuing further studies in history at London. He has studied Hadeeth sciences and holds a

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Jazz's which is certificates in that field. He has also debated high profile Christian theologians, and appears occasionally on major media outlets such as the BBC, BBC, Asian network, Islam channel, ITV and many more. Adnan has travelled extensively and has conducted history tours to a number of Islamic monuments. He is an avid book collector, and also takes a keen interest in studying ancient medieval coins. He has taught many Islamic as well as history courses in workshops around the globe. Adnan Rashid is currently working on a book on the history of Muslim civilization. He also writes poetry in ODL in the old language, and is an admirer of poets like me, and he speaks fluently in

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English in order to and also feels relatively competent in Arabic. He currently resides with his family in London. Please welcome by the Adnan Rashid.

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Sorry before I invite Adnan to come up, I'll invite a couple of people Abraham's aid and Benjamin cop to come and read a portion of the Quran and also from the Christian inscriptions. So in cop, Abraham's aid welcome.

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Last season the

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report on eroding love lapada one lady nicolaou.

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messy. Benny saw Isla buena be back home.

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In humi shriek de la

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la casa Casa La Vina palu

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una sun Aladdin Agatha. Boom, boom any fella una

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manera Merci.

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Merci. de ma rasuluh

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colony will soon

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be upon Ghana.

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Hola, buenas

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Wallah, SME Fulani. Thank you for listening.

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The Bible passage we'll be reading from tonight is Mark chapter two verse one to 12.

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A few days later, when Jesus again and entered companion, the people heard that he had come home.

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They gathered in such large numbers that there was no room left, not even outside the door. And he preached the word to them.

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Some men came bringing to him a paralyzed man carried by four of them.

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Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd. They made an opening in the roof above Jesus by digging through it

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Then lowered the mat The man was lying on.

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When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, son, Your sins are forgiven.

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Now, some teachers of the law was sitting there thinking to themselves, why does this fellow talk like that? He's blast framing, who can forgive sins, but God alone?

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Immediately, Jesus knew in his spirit, that this was what they were thinking in their hearts. And he said to them,

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why are you thinking these things?

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Which is easier to say to this paralyzed man, Your sins are forgiven, or to say, Get up, take your mat, and walk.

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But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.

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So he said to the man, I tell you, get up, take your mat, and go home.

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He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all.

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This amazed everyone. And they praised God saying, We have never seen anything like this.

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But as I said before, tonight, the question being discussed is is Jesus God? And as Hamad has already said, this is a highly significant question that goes to the heart of both Christianity and Islam.

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If Jesus is God, then to refuse to worship Him, is to refuse to submit to God.

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If Jesus is not God, then to worship Him is idolatry.

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The stakes are high, but it is good that we can join together as people of goodwill to consider this important question. to wrestle with that carefully. To consider everything that is said carefully before God.

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semula ad men rotate who speaks first in their different engagements and because Sam spoke first on Saturday, tonight, ad men will be speaking first, each speaker will present a 20 minute opening statement. They'll then have an opportunity for a 10 minute rebuttal. And then a follow a following five minute rebuttal.

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At that point, we will break and take 25 minutes to ask questions. We'll have pieces of paper that you should have received on the way in, and you'll have an opportunity to write down your questions there. There'll be gathered together and representatives

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of the different faiths Tim and Hamad will select the questions to be asked to the different speakers.

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Each speaker will have three minutes to answer the question. And after question time, each speaker will have four minutes for concluding statements.

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During each of the speaking portions, I will ring a bell at one minute before it is due to finish and then again at the time that it is due to finish. And at that point, I will stand and interrupt.

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But tonight I would like to invite first of all Adnan to present his opening argument. So would you please welcome Adnan Rashid.

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Thank you for inviting me to have this debate before you start the time. I would like to have some words.

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I'm very pleased to be here today. I'm honored to be in Perth. This is my first time in Australia, and I felt cold coming from Britain. For some

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I thought Australia was water.

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I would like to thank Samuel green for inviting me to have these debates. I would like to thank the Muslim organizations in Perth

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Islamic foundation of Islamic Islamic Council of Western Australia and a safe initiative, brother Hamad. They've done an amazing job in hosting me, I would like to thank you all at the same time I like to exchange gifts with my interlocutor who happens to be my friend

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semula green. And as it was mentioned earlier that I am a Demis numismatist someone who has passion for early coins or ancient coins. Today I'm going to gift a mobile coin a silver rupee from Mughal India mentored almost three centuries ago in Lahore

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The city of Lahore, during the reign of Mughal Emperor, Mohammed Shah, is a token of our friendship. I hope Samuel will like it.

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And now the fun begins.

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You can stop by time, Bismillahi Rahmani Raheem in the Name of God, the Most Merciful, the magnificent, the God of Moses, the God of Jesus and the God of Mohammed, peace be upon all of them. Ladies and gentlemen, today's discussion is a very important one. This topic has been the bone of contention between Muslims and Christians for centuries. And today's exercise is to show that Muslims and Christians come can come together and have dialogues, exchange ideas, and still be friends. One of the greatest achievements of tonight is to show the world that the Muslims and the Christians can coexist. They can talk to each other, they can dialogue, and still hug each other and

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go home, having disagreed massively, as you will see tonight, right? So I'm very pleased to be here is Jesus God is the topic. If you notice on the screen, the word God is spelled with capital G. And that's why the debate becomes very interesting. This is where we have the problem as Muslims. And when I say we have a problem, we don't have a problem with you believing in it. Christians have believed in this concept. For centuries, Christians lived with Muslims for centuries for over 1000 years, Muslims and Christians coexisted, even within the domain of Islam throughout the history of Islamic civilization. Christian survived in Muslim lands for centuries, some of the oldest churches

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in the world are in the Muslim world, such as the churches of Egypt.

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So Muslims do not have a problem with this belief, or Christians believing in it. But Muslims do have a problem with it. Because this belief is not biblically consistent. It is not from Jesus, it is not from the Old Testament, it was not taught by any of the prophets. A man cannot be God, period. This is what the Bible stands for. So why is the emphasis on the word God with capital G?

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Because if the question was, is Jesus God with lowercase G, then I would concede, and I would

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clearly state that the text of the New Testament

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states that in a number of different places, yes, Jesus could be God with lowercase G. According to the New Testament, I would concede to that. But nowhere does the New Testament state that he was God with capital G. Now what do I mean by that? You may be thinking, is this guy now throwing away the debate? Is he now conceding that Jesus is God? Well, according to the New Testament, a God with lowercase G, is not God with capital G, let me explain. According to the Bible, the Old Testament, Moses is also God. It is clearly explicitly stated in the book of Exodus chapter seven, verse one, that Moses is made a god to Pharaoh,

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if anyone

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or any prophet of God who is called God, with lowercase G. Clearly, it is Moses, Moses qualified to be God more than Jesus, because Jesus never called God clearly in the Bible anywhere.

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There are unclear, ambiguous vague references to him.

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And to say the least, they are confusing as we will see in due course tonight. So the Israelites are called Gods with lowercase G. According to the book of Psalm,

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some 82.

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Verse six clearly states that Israelites are gods.

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So the question is not whether Jesus is God with lowercase G, the question is, whether he is God according to the New Testament, and the Old Testament with capital G. And that would mean he is God Almighty. And I agree with the our friend who introduced us, that if Jesus is God, with capital G, that Muslims must worship Him. It would be blasphemy, to reject Him as God with capital G, you the Muslims, I'm telling you today if Jesus is God, and if you come to realize after tonight's debate that he is indeed God with capital G, then you have to worship Him. I'm telling you that

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You can stick with me afterwards.

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And if he is not God, with capital G,

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then the Christians have some repentance to do. They must repent. And the Christians can stone me later,

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after the Muslims have done

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I'm not making it making any friends, am I?

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So both parties have to think a lot. Tonight after tonight's debate, it will be very clear, in my opinion,

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whether Jesus is God with capital G or not. So this was very important for me to highlight.

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I will show you some biblical verses

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that will explicitly state that Jesus is not God with capital G, it is impossible for him to be God with capital G. In fact, he denied being God, with capital G, and I will stop stop using from now on the word capital G. So when I say God, I mean God with capital G from now on Henceforth, okay. So Jesus denied being God,

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he denied, according to the verses that follow, let's see whether he can be God. According to these verses, if the biblical light writers in the writers of the New Testament wanted us to believe that Jesus is God, then they didn't do a good job. They confused us. Actually, the New Testament stays in the book of First Corinthians chapter 14, verse 33, that God cannot be the author of confusion. Then in the Gospel of Mark, chapter 12, verse 29, we are told to love thy God with all thy mind with all thy soul with all thy heart. It is impossible to love someone without understanding that person, do you agree? If you don't understand someone, are you going to love them? Right? How are you going to

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love someone if you don't understand them? Right? So in order for us to understand God, we have to know him. And we cannot know God. If God becomes a mystery like the Trinity is, then you cannot possibly love him fully. Your love will be divided. Like one of the scholars called James dg done stated that the Christians today are Jesus auditors,

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like idolators, Jesus auditors, they worship Jesus Christ, at the expense of God, the Father whom Jesus worshiped. So Jesus worship God, the Father, who was definitely God with capital G, because Jesus also acknowledges that, as we will see, in due course, and Christians today have become Jesus auditors. They, when a Christian falls, what does he or she state Jesus, right? Jesus like Muslims Al Hamdulillah

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or Mashallah subotic, Allah, Allah, Allah is there all the time and allies the same God, worshipped by Jesus, Moses and Abraham, the word Elohim, Allahu Allah come from the same root word, Allah. So this is a misconception I want to remove from the start, that Allah is not some alien God or moon God, Allah is the same God that was worshipped by Jesus, Moses, and Abraham, which is another discussion altogether. So in this verse, you see, clearly, Jesus categorically denies being God. And when he was, and I am quoting, the gospel of Mark chapter 12, Chapter 10, verses 17, to 18, Gospel of Mark 10 1718. And when he was gone forth into the way they came one running, and kneel to him and

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asked him God, sorry, good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why call is Tao me good? There is none good, but one that is God, if Jesus is God,

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this is the time to say, Yes, I am God and I'm good, is categorically denying that he is God by saying, I am not good. It is God alone, who is ultimately good. This isn't the Gospel of Mark. Then we continue in the Gospel of john, Chapter Four. Verse 21, Jesus say unto her, a Samaritan woman, believe me that our commits when you shall, neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father, you worship what you know not. We know what we worship for salvation is of the Jews. This is Jesus speaking to a Samaritan woman in the Gospel of john. But the Honor Code but the but the our commits, and now is when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in

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truth. God is a spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. God is not Jesus. You know why?

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Because he's talking about another person being God, God, you should worship. If Jesus was God, he should be telling the Samaritan woman, I am God. Worship Me. Right is not telling you that, if he's God is doing a very bad job in telling people that is God. He's confusing people deliberately, if he is God, rather is saying, God the Father is God, and salvation is of the Jews mark the word salvation is of the Jews. So what concept of God did the Jews have the Jews worshiped a unique personal God called the Father. And Jesus clearly acknowledges that in the New Testament, as we will see, Jews never worshipped the Trinity Jews never worshipped Jesus, their concept of God was very,

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very clear. They worshiped one person alone. That was the father. According to the gospel of john chapter eight, verse 54. Jesus clearly states that the Jews who worship the Father alone,

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they say, Father is the God. So if that's the case, how can the salvation be off them? Jesus saying salvation is of the Jews because their concept of God is correct, because that's what Jesus was discussing. In this passage, john 421, he is discussing the concept of God with a Samaritan woman. And he tells us, it tells us that she doesn't understand what God is we do with the Jews. Salvation is of the Jews. How can salvation be of the Jews of the concept of God is incorrect, which does not include Jesus God.

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Next passage, john 1428. All I have to do tonight is to show you these passages as to why Jesus cannot be possibly God.

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According to the New Testament, because the verses Samuel will use later on, without an exception. Mark my words, ladies and gentlemen, brothers and sisters without an exception, every single verse Samuel we use tonight is vague, ambiguous and unclear. The verses I am presenting as to why Jesus is not God are explicit, clear, no doubt. This is why, for the first three centuries, Christians were

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predominantly Unitarians, even those who believed Jesus to be divine with lowercase D.

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They did not believe he was equal to the Father in any shape or form. They were this position in the first three centuries called subordination, ism. And most Church Fathers when I say most over 90% of them, they were of this opinion, that Jesus, if he's divine in any shape, or form, in varying degrees, they believed in this, then he cannot be equal to God, because he was made by God. He was made by God from his own essence.

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As some of the Christian Church Fathers believed, because they were Greek philosophers, they were heavily influenced by Greek philosophy. So john 1428, you have heard how I set on to you, I go away and come again on to you, if you if you lived with me. For if you loved me, that should be you would rejoice, because I said, I go on to the Father, for for my father is greater than I.

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So why is Jesus playing these games? Why is he playing these games? If he's God,

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he should be telling his followers I am God. like God, the Father has been speaking 1000s of times, in the Old Testament, I am your God worship Me, I am a jealous God. I am the first on the last, the book of Isaiah chapter 44, verse six, I am your God worship Me, I am your God worship Me, I am your God, worship me. And you hear it so many times that you think why is God repeatedly saying this? Because he knew some people are coming later, they will get confused on this point. And they will start to worship someone who is not God.

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Jesus, if he was God, he should have done a better job and he should have said in some clear statements, I am God. I am God with capital G, not with lowercase G. us, that has been explained earlier.

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So in the book of Matthew, we are told that some people will come to Jesus and they will say, Lord, Lord,

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we have done x, y and Zed and your name. And Jesus will say to them, get back from me, I do not know you you do as of inequality, iniquity, and justice. What is injustice polytheism, attributing partners to God Almighty, Jesus was a very strict monotheists when he was asked by a Jewish man in the Gospel of Mark, we are told in chapter 12, verse 29,

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a master rabbi, what is the first commandment Jesus says here, O Israel, the God or law Lord is one God. Right who is the question

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Who is the questioner? Can you repeat? Can you can you respond to my question? Who is the questioner?

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Who is the questioner? I can't hear you. Who is the questioner? Hello, are you sleeping?

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Wakey wakey? Who is the questioner? a Jewish man, a Jew is questioning Jesus. What is his concept of God? uni personal God the Father alone.

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And Jesus tells him hero Israel, the God our Lord is one God. He confirms this belief, famous Shama from the book of Deuteronomy. It tells him God is one worshipping alone. Now, this was the time for Jesus to tell him hold on, you have been worshipping the father all the way throughout all the centuries. Now there is a new covenant, things have changed. I have been now declared to be God. And there is another one third person, the Holy Spirit, you must worship all three of us in one deity. Jesus doesn't do that. He tells the Jewish man that

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you because the Jewish man responds to Jesus saying, he has spoken the truth, there is no one else beside him. There is no one else beside him. Who is him? The Jewish man is saying Him, who does it mean by him? Answer please. The Father, him is the Father and Jesus instead of telling him hold on No, no, no, there is there are two more, there are two more, he says, You are close to the kingdom of God. In other words, you are speaking the truth. You have stated correctly, then there is no one else beside him, that we have these references clearly telling us why Jesus is not God, Mark 1332 and other reference why Jesus cannot possibly be God, according to the New Testament. But of that

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day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the son, but the Father. So how can Jesus be God and not know the our family will come back? And then he will say that that was the human side speaking, Jesus had two natures, one human, one divine. And that was the human side speaking. But why didn't Jesus clarify that? Why did it take Christians five centuries to understand that five centuries Christians were arguing? How many nations did Jesus have? Because these passages were problematic. Those who believe Jesus God, Unitarians, who were in majority for the first four centuries, they brought these passages all the Hold on, you guys are

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saying Jesus is God with capital G and is equal to God the Father. And this idea only came up in the fourth century in the first three century centuries. I challenge Samuel to come back and present one church father, one

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who said who stated clearly, that Jesus Christ in any shape or form, whether it was divine or human,

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that he was equal to the Father, like the creative nicea later stated and the creed of Constantinople in the year 381. Later, creeds in the fourth century stated that they are equal, but present one statement from any church Father, I don't mean, the Gospels, because the Christians today read the doctrines into the gospel. They do so Jesus, not exegesis. exegesis is when the Scripture speaks to you. But he says Jesus is when you read your ideas into the text. So Christians today because they were given this doctrine in the fourth century, and that in then it was forced upon them by the Roman Empire, you don't believe me? Do you think I'm making things up? Please bring

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it up during the q&a. And I will give you the details. Theodosius, Emperor Theodosius a second, he adopted this doctrine and enforced it by law. Throughout the Roman Empire. It was illegal for Christians to hold Unitarian views. They were persecuted, they were hunted, and they were killed at times. So the doctrine of the Trinity was forced upon the Christians of the Roman Empire. And lo and behold, the Catholic Church, right. So this is why Christians today ended up with this doctrine, and they have to read it into the text. And this doctrine was not read into the text by the Christians of the first three centuries.

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So if Jesus was God, he should have known the hour.

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And he mentioned not even angels angels are no, my question is, did the Holy Spirit know because he's saying no one. No one knows. Not even the son.

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Okay, only the father knows.

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Only the father knows the question. Now I have did the Holy Spirit know the hour? Because if no one knows, the Holy Spirit also doesn't know the hour. And if that's the case, then Holy Spirit can also not be God.

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JOHN 530

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I can have my own self do nothing. I do as far as the commands. To put it in short, short terms. JOHN, chapter five, verse 30. Jesus could not do anything by himself. He was doing as he was commanded. So why was he playing these games? Why was it confusing his followers if he was God with capital G, it is clear that he was not godly.

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capital G, if he was, if he was God with smaller G or lowercase G, then it's not a huge problem because the Jews had this view that God with lowercase g means a man of God, a prophet of God, a friend of God, someone who brought the message of God, like Moses was like the Israelites are called gods. In that sense, Jesus could be God with lowercase G, capital G, making him God Almighty.

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It has huge, huge repercussions. So Muslims, if Jesus is God, you need to think hard. And if he's not God, Christians, you need to think very, very hard, and repent to God for worshipping the wrong deity. There is only one that deserves to be worshipped and that is the father whom Jesus worshiped Jesus Himself worship the unique personal God. Jesus did not worship at Trinity he never preached the Trinity and never commanded you worship a unique personal God, thank you so much for listening or salaam aleikum wa Taala.

00:36:07--> 00:36:12

Thank you, man. I'd now like to invite Samuel green to come and present his opening statement.

00:36:28--> 00:37:09

Well, good evening, and it's a pleasure to be with you this evening. I wish to thank the organizers of tonight for organizing such a great event. And it's very encouraging to see you all here to look at this significant and important topic. I want to thank Edmund for traveling out and taking out my invitation. And I hope that tonight for you is a great night just not for thinking through the person of Jesus but also hopefully meeting somebody new. The question before us tonight is is Jesus God and has been an as has been pointed out, this is the very heart of the Christian faith.

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God has sent His Son who has come to us as one of us, Jesus reveals God in a more full way than anyone else has. And he has lived the perfect life he has brought glory to God the Father, and brings our salvation in what Christians call the incarnation.

00:37:30--> 00:37:39

For Christian for Muslims, though, as we've just heard in the Quran, to believe that Jesus is God sends you to hell. So it's a very different

00:37:40--> 00:38:28

issue in Islam. In one, it's a source of salvation in the elder, it's a source of damnation. And so we need to talk about this. Now tonight, I'm actually happy to take the Karen's guidance at this point. It says of Jesus, in their footsteps we sent Jesus son of Mary confirming the law that had come before him, we sent him the gospel wearing was guidance and light and a confirmation of the law that had come before him a guidance and an admonition for those who feed God. Let the people of the gospel judge by what God has revealed there in. And so there we see it goes from Jesus, Jesus has the gospel. And it's saying that this is what Christians have. And it commands them, interestingly,

00:38:28--> 00:38:30

to judge according to the gospel that they have.

00:38:31--> 00:39:15

We see in the next verse, and they say none shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian. Those are their vain desires, say produce your proof if you are truthful. And so again, we say the Quran is actually commanding Christians to say, you know, you think you know the way of salvation produce your proof. And so that's what I want to do tonight, I want to take that I wanted to do that as a Christian. And if you're a Muslim, I hope that you will see that this is what the Quran actually asks Christians to do, to work with the scriptures we have, and to produce our proof. Now, my structure for tonight is to look at the theological foundations for the incarnation, the

00:39:15--> 00:40:00

testimony of Scripture, and then to look at the Quran. Let's look at the first of these are theological foundations. And I want to begin by looking at the doctrine of creation. That is how does Sorry, I rushed ahead of myself, what we are not saying as Christians, when we say that Jesus is fully God and fully man, we are not saying that God changed his nature. Very often. It's an accusation that Christians are saying that God went from being this divine being to changing his nature and becoming a creative being. That's not what we're saying. We're actually saying that Jesus has one person and two natures. A divine nature and the creator

00:40:00--> 00:40:44

Did NYCHA fully God, fully man, we say that the Father sends the Son, and the son through the agency of the Holy Spirit is united to a human body, the sun glorifies the father in this life. Now, this is the first question before us that this is a question about God connecting with creation. And I want to ask you, have you ever thought about that? Have you ever thought about how God connects with creation, because people have different views. Some people think like in diagram, one, that God is totally transcendent. And as a result, cannot touch creation at all. This is the idea of the Greek philosophy is God is, is one, and everything, he is totally transcendent and cannot touch the

00:40:44--> 00:41:27

physical realm. Other people will say that God is all all is one. And so obviously, in that case, Jesus can be God. In the first case, Jesus can't be God. But in the Torah, prophets, Psalms and gospel and maybe to the Quran, it actually says that God does connect with creation, through His Word, and spirit. And so we see that God has created actually does connect and just think about this. When God creates, there's a connection between human creation, otherwise, he didn't do it. When God is sustaining your life, that means there's a connection between you and God is God as and as God sustains you. And what is that connection, it's a connection between the divine nature and

00:41:27--> 00:41:49

the creative nature. And so we see that when ever, so every time that God interacts with his creation in any way, there is a union of two natures, not neither union is compromised, so I knew the nature is compromised. But there is the there are these unions, and this is what we're saying about Jesus, that there is the union of our divine and creative nature.

00:41:50--> 00:42:02

That's actually the doctrine of creation, the doctrine of creation is the doctrine of is a foundation for the incarnation. The second point I want to look at is that God accommodates himself to us.

00:42:03--> 00:42:51

What I mean by this is God is infinite. God is infinite. And sometimes people say, if God is infinite, how can the infinite God become a man? I mean, Jesus is finite, how does that work? But I want to say to you that every single time, the infinite God interacts with his creation, in any way, it's in a finite way. So when God created the universe, it was a finite expression of of his power, yet, it's still a true revelation of God. When God speaks to us His Word through his prophets, it's a finite. Speaking of his word, it's a finite expression of finite revelation, yet, it's still a true. It's a true revelation of the infinite God. And so you see, God, the infinite God always

00:42:51--> 00:43:34

accommodates himself whenever he interacts with his creation in any way. Now, we actually see this in the in the Torah of Moses, where it says, The Lord appeared to Abraham, near the great trees of memory while he was sitting in the entrance of his tent in the heat of the day. And so we see that God is able to present himself and reveal himself in his creation. It's not that God is so transcendent, that he can't touch it, or come into it, or it compromises his nature. No, the creator, God has made creation, and it is compatible for him to interact with. In fact, we even see this in the Quran where it says, that on the day of judgment that some faces that day will be

00:43:34--> 00:44:01

radiant, looking at the Lord. And so even within the Quran and Hadees, we see that Allah is able to present himself and reveal himself, the infinite God can reveal himself in a finite way, within creation. And it's a true expression of who we use. My third point is that God is the God who dwells with his people. This is the third theological foundation. That is,

00:44:02--> 00:44:51

God just didn't make us and we're on a journey to him. In the Torah, Prophet, Psalms and gospel, God made the world and God comes to us. God comes to us. And so in the Garden of Eden, we see that God comes to creation and walks with Adam. And the whole point of the Garden of Eden is that it is where you are with God. When God makes the nation of Israel, he tells them to make a tabernacle or a sanctuary, a temple, and he says that this is so that I may come and dwell with my people. Now, again, that this is important, because this is what we have happening in Jesus. When Jesus comes into the skirt, he is described as a temple. He is described as God coming to dwell with us, and I'm

00:44:51--> 00:44:59

just trying to point out to you that this is not a Christian idea. This is actually an idea of all of the profits that God comes to draw in his people.

00:45:00--> 00:45:41

Want to point out what to look at? Is the idea of humanity. We need to understand that God is the Creator and connects with creation. We need to understand that God accommodates himself to his creation, we need to understand that, that God's plan is to come and dwell with his people. The last thing we need to be clear on is what does it mean to be human. Because if we're saying Jesus is God, we need to understand what it means to be a human. You know, in the Torah, Prophet, Psalms and gospel, God made us in His image. And that means that a human can represent the rule of God, a human can display the character of God, and a human can share in God's glory, as God gives us eternal

00:45:41--> 00:46:24

life. I've got more details of that in my book. But the point I just want to bring out here is that when God comes to us as a man, and he takes on a human nature, it is not some random form. It's not some random form, he takes on a human form that he made with the express purpose of representing his rule, displaying his character and sharing in his glory. So have you can see I haven't even gone to the New Testament yet. I'm just looking at the the prophets beforehand. And I hope you can see that it is the Incarnation is completely logical and consistent with the message of the prophets and other create a God who interacts with his creation, accommodates himself to it, comes to dwell with

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his people, and then uses a human body which he created to display His glory in the first place. I now want to move on to the testimony of Scripture.

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Because in Scripture, we see in the prophets beforehand, that there are promises that God will come, there are promises that God will come, a voice cries in the wilderness, in a voice Christ in the wilderness prepared the wife of the Lord, make straight in the desert, a highway for our God, Every valley will be lifted up every mountain, and Hill will be made low, the uneven ground shall be come level, and the rough plains places applying and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed. And all flesh shall cells shall see it through the mouth of the Lord has spoken. So we say that there's this coming of God in the book of Isaiah 600 years before Jesus, God is coming. God is coming in some

00:47:16--> 00:47:34

way. We see this in Malecon, Behold, I send my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me, and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple. And so there's his promise that God is going to come to his temple, and there'll be somebody who prepares the way for the Lord, who is john the baptist.

00:47:36--> 00:48:22

Well, we see there that the Old Testament talks about that, that God is coming. It's actually in the prophets that God is coming in some way. And when we come to the gospel, we come to the New Testament documents, we make the person of Jesus and with him, we see a man who is fully human, yet fully God. And we know that he's God by what he does, by what he does. And so we see the full humanity of Jesus in that he was born, he grew, he learned, he ate, he prayed, he suffered. He, he was tempted, he died, and he rose from the dead. And I guess for most of us, that's not too contentious. But then when we continue to read, we see as we saw in the reading that Jesus forgave

00:48:22--> 00:49:01

people their sins. And when he did, that, people went Hang on, you're talking like God, they're very, sometimes when people came into His presence, they were struck at their own sinfulness, which is what happened when people came into God's presence in the in the previous prophets that come into God's presence and His Holiness would overwhelm them. That's what happened when people came into Jesus presence. The prophets before Jesus talk about how God is the one who comes the storm. And then we see in the scriptures that Jesus comes the storm. In the prophets before Jesus is God who walks over his creation walks over the water, it's Jesus, who walks in on the water, in the gospels,

00:49:02--> 00:49:43

in the profits before Jesus, it's God who commands spirits what they will do in the Gospel, it's Jesus who commands spirits what to do, he chooses who will be saved, he comes on the clouds, as God is said to come in the clouds bringing the judgment of God. And so we see that Jesus demonstrates his divinity, and he sort of demonstrates it in the way that creation demonstrates the power of God. He went around doing things and saying to people, who do you think I am? Don't you have eyes to see? And it's sort of like what we say to people when they look at creation and say, Oh, nothing. That's nothing. We say, why don't you have eyes to see? That's what Jesus was doing in his works that he

00:49:43--> 00:50:00

did. He was saying, Don't you understand what I'm doing? He is given the titles of God. So he is called the husband of God's people, something which God has called in earlier prophets. He is spoken of as the I Am, which is one of God's names. I am who I will either

00:50:00--> 00:50:42

I am who I am. And that is given to Jesus He is spoken of as the author of life in X 315. He the the Old Testament, quotes, the Old Testament Scriptures, which we're talking about yawei, I just applied to Jesus. And so I've given you the references there. God in the Old Testament is called the first and the last Jesus is called the first and the last. And then Jesus Himself said that he is the divine Son of God, who is to be worshipped. He actually said, I am the divine Son, Jesus doesn't say I am God, but he says, I am the divine Son of God. So a little bit different, he always defines himself in relationship to his father. And so it's a bit different to how you might think that the

00:50:42--> 00:51:05

high priest asks him, Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One, I am, he said, and you will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One, and coming on the clouds of heaven. Now the Son of Man is the world ruler, prophesied in the Old Testament that all people are going to worship. So Jesus is saying here on the divine Son of God, and you're gonna worship me.

00:51:06--> 00:51:08

That's what gets him crucified in the end.

00:51:09--> 00:52:00

Now, Jesus, oneness with the Father is also taught in the scriptures. And so we see this in that Jesus is described as being the Word of God, in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And so we see that Jesus is described, not as created, but as being the very word of God. Now the word of God means that he's he's uncreated. God doesn't create his word God creates by His Word. And so we see in this verse, a distinction of persons. There's God and His word, yet a oneness of being, it's the same being, the same essence, the same nature. So we have distinction of person, but a more of a monotheistic description, we see this monotheism and a

00:52:00--> 00:52:28

distinction of persons in the book of Hebrews, it where it says the sun is the radiance of God's glory, and the exact representation of his being. Now God doesn't create his glory, his glory comes out of him and emanates from him. And this is saying that that's that's what Jesus is, he is of the same nature as God. He is the radiance of God, yet, there's a distinction between the Father and the Son.

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And so we see, as I said, that the Father sends the Son, and through the agency of the Holy Spirit in the virgin birth, the son is united to a human body, and the son leaves the perfect life and glorifies the Father. This is the testimony of the prophets and the gospel. Now, I want to finish up by looking at the Quran at this point, because as Christian readers were encouraged to the Quran encourages Christians to read the Quran, and certainly within the Quran, it does say in many verses that Jesus is not God. But I've got a question for Muslims today about these verses, because to us Christians, these verses are actually saying he is God. So let's have a look at the first of these.

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It says, When your Lord said to the angels, shall I create mankind from clay, when I have formed him and breathed some of my spirit into him, I created him with my own hands. And so here we have God, creating Adam. And the why that this is done is that God takes the the mud from the ground and shapes Adam and breathe into him the breath of life. Now creating is one of God's unique attributes. It's part of his identity, He is the Creator. How do you define God? Well, one of the ways is, he's the Creator, and you're not, he may do. It's what makes him unique from everything else, yet he we see this attribute or sorry, but when we read this next verse, have a look at what we read about

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Jesus, I, Jesus have come to you with a sign from your Lord, I will create for you out of clay, the likeness of a bird, then I will breathe into it, and it will be a bird by the permission of God. So here we see Jesus creating. And it's not just that he creates it, in any old way, he actually create creates in precisely the parallel way, the exact same way that God creates. He takes mud from the ground, he fashions it and then he breathes into it. Now the verse does say that he did it by the permission of Allah, but that actually doesn't change anything. That doesn't change anything, because this is God's unique attribute.

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It doesn't say this story is saying that Jesus Christ that doesn't remove the Divinity from the story, because creating is God's unique attribute. And if God can share this attribute with Jesus, then Jesus can

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sharing what is uniquely God's. And if God could share this with anybody, then that means God is no longer unique. It's an attribute that he can share with anyone. And that's this is his defining attributes.

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It's interesting that in the study Quran, which is a very hopeful publication, it says these miraculous powers attributed to Jesus are extraordinary, in that they suggest power is usually reserved for God.

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And this is an orthodox publication. So to finish up

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tonight, it's a very important question that we have before us. And I hope that as Muslims, you will do what the Quran says. And that is, let Christians go to their scriptures and see what they say. And let us present our case, as the Quran asks us to do.

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We see that when we look at theology, that the the theology of the Old Testament of God being the creator of God, accommodating himself to us, of God, coming to dwell with these people, and the doctrine of the image of God lay a firm foundation for the logic and reasonableness of the incarnation, we've seen that the testimony of Scripture testifies that God will come to us and that God has come to us in the person of his son. And we've seen that even in the Quran, there is still a testimony to this. Thank you very much.

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Thank you, Sam. I'd now like to invite Adnan to present his first rebuttal.

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Thank you, Samuel, for that passionate defense of your position. And

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you have confirmed exactly what I said, in my presentation.

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All the verses you presented for your case, none of them clearly states that Jesus is God, you had to do a long exercise, you had to start from the Old Testament, you have to give all these verses and put a spin on them, and then make some meaning out of them. And then reach your conclusion. You did that Samuel because there is no clever stating Jesus God, you don't have to do that. For God the Father, you don't, because there are so many flavors is where he says, I am God worship me.

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Jesus never said that, that He is God worship me. In fact, to the contrary, he played games with his disciples if he's God, if he was God, he himself, misguided his disciples when he said, Why do you call me good when God alone is good? What kind of status statement is that? If your God then you tell them your God. What's the point of him going around asking people who do you think I am? Who do you think I am? Tell them who you are. Tell them. He clearly told people, he's the Messiah. He told them, he is a prophet of God. He told them he is the messenger of God. He said all these things to them. What he didn't say to them, that I am God, with capital G again to annoy you.

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So Samuel made some points Lord appeared to Abraham, therefore, Lord will come God will come on earth for people to see but then again, in the Gospel of john, we are told for some reason, and chapter one, verse 18, no one has ever seen God.

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Samuel claimed, God appeared to Abraham. JOHN, later on centuries later tells us who is john according to the Christian view, john is inspired by God. JOHN is writing what God is inspiring. If that's the case, then which God is inspiring this assemblies, assemblies, understanding is correct that Abraham saw God. Then what is john talking about? In chapter one? Verse 18. No one has ever seen God. What does that mean? I'll ask Central to come and explain to us. Then Samuels tables and long explanations and hard work and all the x eg season, so Jesus and everything jumbled up together in the Quran, and the commentary on the Quran. Why? To prove what one point right Jesus is God? Why

00:59:22--> 00:59:59

does he have to do this exercise? Just give us one statement? What case does Jesus have on the day of judgment against us, the Muslims, for us to believe in Him as God will tell him straight? Why did you say that? I'm not good. Because only God is good. Why did you say that? If you wanted us to believe that, the your God, just tell us simply that your God like God the father did. Then cemal said God will come in some form. Do you remember that? He quoted the book of Isaiah chapter 44. Verses three to five. Yes, God will come in some form. But hold on. Isaiah was writing in the ninth century BC.

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And we have the book of Deuteronomy from Moses. And in the book of Deuteronomy, we are told God has already come.

01:00:09--> 01:00:18

God has already come right where the book of Deuteronomy, chapter 33, verse two reads, God came from Sinai.

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He rose from Mount sire. And he shone forth from Mount Paran.

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And by the way, this is a prophecy about

01:00:29--> 01:00:37

Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed Peron is Arabia, by the way. So that's a different topic. We discussed it a few days ago.

01:00:38--> 01:01:03

The point I'm making is God has already come according to the book of Deuteronomy, way before Isaiah. So why is Isaiah announcing God is coming? What does this actually mean in biblical language? It means people of God, messengers of God, they will continue to come, they are coming. Even in Deuteronomy 33, God 33 two, God is not saying I am coming myself in person. No, God sends his agents, his prophets, his messengers to do the job.

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Now Jesus forgives sins. That's one of the this is again, a stretch. This is a spin on biblical passages. Jesus forgave sins, therefore He is God.

01:01:18--> 01:02:01

That's the argument. He forgives sins because only God can. So this is what we call, we call this inference. Do you all agree? This is what we call in the English language inference, you have to infer when the evidence is not clear, you have to explain it right. So I'll give you an example where people forgive sins. There are many examples in the Old Testament. In fact, Prophet Muhammad, he told his companions, that you are guaranteed paradise 10 of them, at least, you are guaranteed paradise. Then he told one of them, in particular, of man, the third Caliph of Islam, that none of your sins will affect affect you because you have been so generous, for donating heavy amounts to

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the cause of Islam. Charity, he did charity and the Prophet promised him paradise. In other words, you forgive all his sins, he told him you have? And how can prophets do that? They do it on the authority of God. The prophets do not have this authority to do it, do it on the authority of God. They have revelation from God. God is talking to them consistently through angels, Angel Gabriel, as we are told in the Old Testament, as well as the New Testament, the Christians actually understood the Holy Spirit to be something some unknown entity, it took Christians centuries, to reach the conclusion that the Holy Spirit is God. And it was finally stated in the fourth century in three at

01:02:40--> 01:02:47

once in the Council of Constantinople in the Nicene constantinopolitan Creed, I'm sorry, if you didn't understand that.

01:02:49--> 01:03:10

That's part of Christian history, there was a council in Constantinople, where it was clearly stated, for the first time in Christian history, that the Holy Spirit is also God. But we believe the Holy Spirit which is literally translated into the Arabic language rule code. This is Angel Gabriel, who brought messages to messengers, even in the Old Testament, we are told that

01:03:11--> 01:03:12

Jesus Jesus demonstrated

01:03:14--> 01:03:23

and he demonstrated indirectly that he's God, why is he being indirect? When God is not the author of confusion? It is in the New Testament.

01:03:24--> 01:03:35

First Corinthians, chapter 14, verse 33, God is not the author of confusion. Why is it confusing his followers? Just say who you are, you say, clearly stated.

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Then Samuel presented the Word was God, therefore his God now amazingly, what you won't be told by our Christian activists and Christian preachers and missionaries about this verse is that it is actually miss translated deliberately in modern Bibles. Because when you go to the Greek, here, the word for God with capital G is whole theose. And where the word is describing God, it is Tom Theo's, which is correctly translated in many biblical translation as divine with smaller or lowercase D. They did not translate it as God with capital G. Christians are doing this with their Bibles. Some Bibles translate this word, God, which is in the Greek language, Tom Theo's, as divine with lower

01:04:32--> 01:04:39

case D. and other Bibles, translate this as God with capital G. But then, amazingly,

01:04:40--> 01:04:57

when you go to the book of Corinthians, Second Corinthians, chapter four, verse four, they're the word in the Greek language. Whole Theo's, which means the God with capital G, is used for the devil, for the devil, and it is translated with

01:04:58--> 01:04:59

lowercase g

01:05:00--> 01:05:11

Amazingly, so what games are these translators playing when it should be capital G because the word is used for the devil it is translated in modern Bibles as lowercase D.

01:05:12--> 01:05:48

that is divine, in the lower sense, and when it is supposed to be translated correctly, hopefully sorry, tone theose, it should be divine with lower case D, it is translated with capital G. So this is something you have to come and explain. And even that verse doesn't prove Jesus God. If it's lowercase D or G, then again, like Moses in the Old Testament, and the Israelites, he is God with lowercase G, according to the Bible. We don't accept that, by the way as Muslims, but that was the biblical language, the Jews understood it, it was a million they knew how to explain it and understand it.

01:05:50--> 01:06:27

Then, God has have unique attributes such as creation, for example, creation. If God permits someone to create, if he passes on, one of his attributes, in a lower sense, in a lower way to another creation of is, can you not do that? Is God capable of giving some powers to his followers, his creation, his supreme agents is messengers. And the Quran clearly states by the permission of God, Samuel, you haven't adapted to come and use that particular verse? As your evidence seriously, it says, By the permission of God. So ladies and gentlemen,

01:06:28--> 01:06:57

again, I will ask Samuel come back and present something clear, explicit, to prove that Jesus is God with capital G. So far, Samuel had 20 minutes in he has failed to do it. Again, to emphasize the point before I go, this exercise is not to hurt your feelings, not to insult your beliefs, or your way of thinking, we love you, man talking to Christian Brothers, Muslims, no, I love them.

01:06:58--> 01:07:14

I want you to know we love you, I love you as brothers and sisters in humanity. My purpose here today is not to insult you or to to disrespect your beliefs. Rather, this is my way of expressing my love to show you what I think to be the truth. Thank you so much for listening.

01:07:22--> 01:07:27

Thank you, Adnan. I'll invite Samuel up to present his first rebuttal.

01:08:10--> 01:08:13

Okay, we'll make a stop there.

01:08:14--> 01:08:46

Thank you for that. ednan Now I have to admit, I did feel a fair bit of dismissiveness. In my case there, you're accusing Christians of doing ISIS Jesus of reading things in I've really just been stupid and not knowing how to read their book. And I just think that that's completely wrong. And I'm actually going to start with one of your last point you're saying that john, chapter one, verse one where it says In the beginning was the Word the Word was with God, the Word was God, just saying that that is Miss translated, you completely got the Greek wrong.

01:08:47--> 01:09:04

It says chi ha lagace in pross, taan fion. Now the term Theon there has got nothing to do with being a capital G God or lowercase god, it's got to do with the accusative case. And so you just can't go taan thian equals

01:09:05--> 01:09:13

equals lowercase God, because throughout the rest of the Greek New Testament, taan 300 applies to the Creator.

01:09:14--> 01:09:20

Right? So if you're going to use if you want to refer to Greek language, you might have got that from Ahmed dudette.

01:09:21--> 01:09:22

But he didn't know Greek.

01:09:23--> 01:09:31

Right? I'm a debt really didn't know much of what he's talking about in this regard. So I just want to say you dismissive but then once you come into the languages,

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I don't think you can hold your own. I want to look at some of the comments that you might have about the different verses. So let's look at those quickly.

01:09:42--> 01:09:59

JOHN 1428, where Jesus says, the father is greater than I, and you're saying that this shows Jesus isn't god what No, it shows the incarnation. Because if you just keep reading Jesus says, Now Father, glorify me with the, with the glory I had in your presence.

01:10:00--> 01:10:44

Before the world existed, and so in the incarnation, Jesus humbles himself. And of course the father is graded to him in that sense. And if we just keep reading, we see that they're in Mark chapter 12, you correctly referred to the man coming to Jesus and saying, here, what is the greatest commandment? He said, and Jesus said, Listen, O Israel, the Lord, sorry, listen, O Israel, the Lord your God, the Lord is one Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind and all your strength. And you're absolutely right, Jesus does say that. But if you just keep reading, Jesus then goes on to talk from Psalm 110, which describes how there's the son of

01:10:44--> 01:11:30

David, who is at God's right hand. And this is the the divine Son spoken about in the Old Testament. And so we see here that Jesus goes from the Shema, here, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one to include in that oneness, this divine Son of God. And so again, we just need to read the whole story. Now, let's see, what was the other one? Oh, there was Mark, chapter 10. with the, with the men coming up to Jesus and saying, What must I do? good teacher to be saved? Now you're absolutely right, it can be a bit tricky. When you read that one. The first thing I want to say is when you read Mark's gospel, read the whole thing, because at the beginning of it, we're told that God says

01:11:30--> 01:12:15

to Jesus, you are my son, whom I love with you, I am well pleased. And then as we keep reading, we read about how Jesus is the Holy One, the demons confess Him, we read about his goodness, time and time again. And so when a man comes to him and says, good teacher, Jesus is not denying his own goodness. Right? When Jesus when He says, No one is good, but God alone, he's not denying his own goodness, you just need to read the rest of the gospel there. The actual context there is that a man comes to Jesus and says, What must I do to be saved? Now I can tell you, if you read the Gospel, Jesus did not come to tell you something to do so that you could be saved. Jesus came and said, you

01:12:15--> 01:12:50

can do nothing to save yourself. And that's why most of the stories in the Gospel are about blind people, lying people, people who could not help themselves, and by faith that they are saved. Jesus demonstrates again and again, that He is the Savior of those who put their faith in him. And so when this man says to him, What must I do to be saved? That is the exact opposite of what Jesus is all about. And so he just goes, Well, there's only one way that's, that's God. Right? You can't do anything come and follow me if you want to be saved in the manga is not actually I won't do that. So he doesn't actually think Jesus is that good.

01:12:51--> 01:12:54

Now, I will keep moving on here. So I've got that one, that one.

01:12:56--> 01:13:35

Now you're talking about, it took five centuries for the Christians to work out how to articulate the natures of Jesus and how they balanced together. I want to say to some degree, yes, the Caledonian definition about the two natures and the one person of Christ wasn't finalized until the fifth century. But I want to say, that doesn't matter. That doesn't matter. Sometimes things take a while to work out. I've been speaking to various Muslims from different Muslim groups, and they have different understandings of tawheed. There's not just one version of tally, there are different concepts of what Tao houde mean means. Some people have

01:13:36--> 01:13:56

said the Quran descriptions as being anthropic anthropomorphic, others will say it's not. And this leads to radically different understandings of tau hood. And there actually is no set definition of tau hood. So why did we do that? Why criticized Christians for taking a few sets several centuries to work out our definitions, when there's still no set definition for metalhead?

01:13:57--> 01:14:01

Now, you asked me to provide speakers who could

01:14:03--> 01:14:09

early church fathers who said things about Jesus and it's hard for me to read them out. But there is an article by

01:14:10--> 01:14:43

Tom, let me read Tom Barnett, ta sorry, Tim Barnett, who has an excellent one on this. And he goes through Polycarp, Ignatius, and basically, you know, I'll read one out, and Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the eternal, high priest, himself, the Son of God, Christ, Jesus, build up, build you up in your faith and truth, and to us with you and to those who are under heaven, who are yet to believe in our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, and in his father who raised him from the dead. Now,

01:14:44--> 01:14:59

I don't have time to go through all of these but there are multiple there's about eight or nine early church fathers who will call Jesus our Lord and God. And the definition that they mean by this is that they see him as the creator and the Sovereign Lord, which are

01:15:00--> 01:15:04

The two defining elements to identify a god.

01:15:05--> 01:15:17

Now, you mentioned that most of the early church fathers were Unitarians, I wouldn't agree with that. They were some are. But you also spoke about why this is the case. And that is,

01:15:18--> 01:15:59

for when, when the gospel begins when Christianity begins in the Roman world, it begins in a place where there's Plato and Aristotle. And they're all the people who live in that area. And so Greek philosophy is the science of the day. It's the science of the day. And so when people are thinking about God, they're trying to fit their understanding of God into their science. And the science of the day was actually that first image I showed you about how God relates to creation. Remember that the letter of separation. And for these, these early Greek thinkers, God was totally transcendent, and couldn't touch creation at all. And it was because of this science that they said, therefore,

01:15:59--> 01:16:35

Jesus cannot be God. They're not working it out from Scripture, and saying, we go from scripture that way. They're trying to work it out from their scientific philosophy. And if you've got people like Plato and Aristotle, they're pretty big guns, and they're trying to fit it into the the science of the day. Now, we actually have that as an interpretive problem in our own communities, where people will say, this is what science is, therefore, this is what the Bible must say. And we go, well, hang on, no, no, we might not do that. That's what people were doing in the early centuries with Jesus, though saying, God is totally transcended, he can't touch creation. Therefore, Jesus

01:16:35--> 01:16:44

can't be God. And so this was wrestled through in the early centuries in Christianity. And, and in the end, just in the same way that

01:16:46--> 01:16:49

when you had started, I've got it in my notes over here.

01:16:52--> 01:17:34

You have your own, you have your own heroes of the faith, don't you? So in the early centuries, in the third Islamic century, when the Israelites were in control, and the Caleb, now let me see if I can get the Caleb's name here, the Caleb l mooyah. mn maamoun. He, he actually tried to enforce this Greek way of thinking as well. He tried to enforce the Greek thinking on the Muslim community. And but there were people like Ahmed ibn Hanbal, who stood up for the truth. Well, you have that in your history. We have the nails as well. And it worked itself out over hundreds of years. So I've got about 40 seconds going to say anything else.

01:17:35--> 01:18:05

You said that James Dunn says that Christians worship Jesus and not the father. Well, I don't know why James Dunn said that in the churches I go to we all pray to God the Father, we love having God our Father. And I guess I want to say, the great thing about Jesus coming to us is that he can make God your father to that may be a name that you don't have in Islam, but because Jesus is the son, he can bring you to God in such a way that you can call godfather. Thank you very much.

01:18:14--> 01:18:18

Thanks, Samuel. I'll invite Adnan to come up and present his final rebuttal.

01:18:28--> 01:18:34

Thank you Samuel for another passionate defense of your position. But again, you have not presented evidence

01:18:37--> 01:18:44

to substantiate your case. And I'm glad that you have accepted a hammered when humbled stood for the truth.

01:18:47--> 01:18:50

Truth as Muslims see if not, of course, as Christians here.

01:18:51--> 01:18:54

Ama did not didn't know the Greek language

01:18:55--> 01:19:33

is absolutely right. Ama d dot did not the Greek language and I did not refer to Mr. D dot once as my source No, I was referring to Christian scholars translating the New Testament such as the New Testament and American translation, Edgar Goodspeed, and Jay Jay impose Smith, the University of Chicago, they translate the verse as follows in the beginning, the word existed, the Word was with God, and the Word was divine with lowercase D. Then we come to the dictionary of the Bible by john McKenzie. The translation is,

01:19:34--> 01:20:00

in fact, he states in john one one, john one one should rigorously be translated, the Word was with D God, capital G, and the word was a divine being with lowercase D. I'm sure these people knew the Greek language because they're translating the Bible from the Greek language, so amedy that was not my source. Just wanted to make that point very quickly. Now, the next point is fixed.

01:20:00--> 01:20:39

century chalcedonian and Chelsey, Dorian creed and the childhood learning Council. Samuel actually agreed with me when he came back and he said, yes, it took Christians five centuries to get to that point that Jesus has two natures. So what about those Christians for five centuries? Those who are working the fields and those who are bricklayers or those who were all those poor Christians throughout the Christian world, for those five centuries, what about their salvation? They had the wrong view of Jesus Christ, if they believe Jesus only has human nature, and he is not God with capital G, what's going to happen to those Christians is a very important question. And if they had

01:20:39--> 01:20:49

salvation, which was the safer position to hold, then I invite all the Christians to have the same view to stand on safer grounds. Because the ground

01:20:51--> 01:21:10

Samuel is debating for that Jesus is God with capital G is a very controversial ground, it is a very, very unsafe position to hold. And you are in danger of blood streaming. If Jesus is not God, if he's not God, with capital G, you are actually blaspheming, making him God who is not God.

01:21:12--> 01:21:13

So so he differences.

01:21:15--> 01:21:16


01:21:17--> 01:21:26

show me one Muslim scholar, or one Muslim example, from the entire history of Islam, where anyone argued that Muhammad is God,

01:21:27--> 01:21:29

or one of the messengers of God was God.

01:21:30--> 01:22:14

We had never we'd never had these, these issues. It is the Christian history where some people use the Greek philosophy to turn Jesus from a god from lowercase G, which was a biblical position for many of the people, as I've stated, clearly Moses, the Israelites, some Greek philosophers, Greek thinkers, they turned Jesus into a God with capital G. That was the Greek philosophy that did to Jesus, not Jesus. Jesus never said, I'm God. It took Christians for centuries to make him God, equal to God the Father. And that's where my next point comes. Polycarp, Ignatius Samuel attempted to quote them, he didn't have the time and he said, another eight or nine Church Fathers he had, but he

01:22:14--> 01:22:54

did not listen to my question carefully. I know what Polycarp wrote, I know what Ignatius and Iranian and Tertullian men and apologies, I will name them. Samuel didn't name them. And I know what they wrote. I know they said Jesus was divine, in some sense. My question was, show me one of them in the first three centuries, who said Jesus is God with capital G equal to God the Father, one statement, you'd have nothing in the New Testament, it is clear so far, in the debate has been clear. So far, there's nothing in the New Testament. For that reason. The early church fathers did not hold that position, if they believe Jesus was divine in some shape or form because of reading

01:22:55--> 01:22:57

passages like john one, one.

01:22:59--> 01:23:45

Show me one of them who said, Jesus was God with capital G, equal to God the Father, I am saying all of them, all of them are subordination is they held this view that Jesus was a subordinate being to God the Father, he was made by God the Father from his own essence, therefore, it was divine, in a lesser sense, so they believe God, the Father is the Supreme God, Jesus was God, in lesser sense with small or lowercase D or G. This is what they held. This is the position. I will repeat my question again. Come back and show us one church father, who clearly stated that Jesus is equal to God the Father, the position you stated in the fourth century, in the first three century century,

01:23:45--> 01:23:48

this position does not exist. Thank you so much for listening.

01:23:56--> 01:24:00

Thank you, Adnan. I'll invite Samuel to come forward and present his final rebuttal.

01:24:24--> 01:24:26

All right, thank you, and then

01:24:27--> 01:25:00

you brought up the translation or bring it up again. The the idea of the accusative does not mean a lowercase God, that's just the Greek grammar. And so you can quote various scholars saying, you could read it this way. You could read it that way. But that is an interpretation that they're giving. I'm simply saying that if you read it as it stands in john chapter one, it says that this, Tom found this God created all things gives life to all things. That's the god we're talking about, which is the God that created everything.

01:25:00--> 01:25:07

That ruins everything that gives life to everything. Well, that's the one God. And so we just need to read that in its context.

01:25:08--> 01:25:09


01:25:11--> 01:25:23

I want to call you out on your technique here, your debating technique, because you've been taunting me with, you know, show me one church says this, show me one that says that you actually haven't given any evidence for any church father.

01:25:24--> 01:25:25

Right? So

01:25:27--> 01:25:51

you're saying they all say this way. But like we actually haven't, I haven't got anything to work with. I'm telling you the articles that you can go and look at, I'm not going to try to correct them all now. Because you can, you can hop online, and you can look at what the early church fathers say. But they are definitely calling Jesus the Creator. They calling him the Lord, and the creator and the Lord puts him into the identity of the one true God.

01:25:53--> 01:26:33

Now in terms of it taking four centuries for Christians to work things out, I want to say, yes, but But you said you said but show me one Muslim that ever said that Muhammad was God. Well, that's not the issue. Tell heed is the beauty of Islam Tao, who is the assurance of Islam. And so the fact that you're actually discussing what cow herd is, and you still haven't figured out how to have a definition of it actually is important. It is important, that sort of your parallel for us who Jesus is is important. For you what tell Hades is important. I don't care if anyone said Muhammad was God or not, that's not your issue. The fact is, you haven't got a definition of cow herd, yet, you still

01:26:33--> 01:26:35

don't have one that you agree on.

01:26:36--> 01:26:39

Now, let me continue with some of these other things here.

01:26:40--> 01:26:46

I want to go back to to where Jesus is saying his God, because he was doing these things. So

01:26:47--> 01:27:30

I put up Jesus forgiving people coming the storm, his presence, convicting people of sin. And you said, Why didn't he just say it? Well, sometimes he did say it. As I said, when he was on trial, they said to him, Are you the Son of God? And he said, Yes, I am. So he did. He did say he was upfront clear about it. And he said, on the one that you will bow down and worship, and that's what got him crucified. So he does say it. But other times, he doesn't say it. Other times, he just does the works of God. And as I said, the parallel I drew was when when we look at creation, it doesn't speak always. So creation doesn't speak, but it declares the works of God. And so Jesus sometimes

01:27:30--> 01:28:12

speaks and talks about his relationship to the Father and what's you know, and that he is the divine Son, and that you will worship Him. Sometimes he says that, but sometimes he forgives people. And he doesn't do it in the name of God, I do it. He just does it because he, he just does it. he calms the storm, he doesn't pray to God and say, God, please calm the storm. He just, he just gets up and says the word. And so when you look at what Jesus does, he does things in the way that God does things. And so again, I guess I just want to encourage people to come down, grab a gospel account yourself, and just encounter Jesus yourself. Just read the gospel for yourself, and come to your own decision.

01:28:13--> 01:28:16

Now, let me see whatever points have I got here?

01:28:22--> 01:28:26

Okay, let's have a look at this one here, which I had in john five. For the last minute.

01:28:28--> 01:29:09

We see that Jesus, in john chapter five, verse 17, Jesus responded to them, my father is still working, and I also am working. So Jesus is this ain't him. Why don't you take the Sabbath off? And Jesus says, Well, I work like God works. God's always at work. I don't take the Sabbath. I work like God, and they're saying, hang on, what what do they say? They say, they are. This is why the Jews begin trying to kill him all the more. Not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own father, making himself equal to God. And as you read through it, we see just as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, so the son also gives life to whom He wills. The

01:29:09--> 01:29:23

Father, in fact, judges no one, but has given all judgment to the sun so that all people may honor the sun, just as they honor the Father. Anyone who does not honor the sun does not honor the Father who sent him.

01:29:24--> 01:29:26

And so I will finish there. Thank you.

01:29:36--> 01:29:37

Thank you, Samuel. Thank you, man.

01:29:39--> 01:29:59

Now is our opportunity to ask questions. So you should have received a piece of paper when you came in. You can write questions on that. We'll give you a couple of minutes to do that. If you don't have a question. You might like to meet someone new, introduce yourself, say hello. Once we have questions, Tim and Hamid will sort them and ask them

01:30:02--> 01:30:03

The first question is for Adnan.

01:30:08--> 01:30:10

based off what you've said before, none.

01:30:12--> 01:30:18

Are you saying that means humans can create by the mission of God?

01:30:34--> 01:30:35

Thank you for that question.

01:30:37--> 01:30:56

based upon what I said earlier, am I saying that humans can create with the permission of God? Absolutely. This is what I'm saying. We create every single day. We have created mobile phones. We create jets flying around the world. We create spaceships, we create Donald Trump.

01:30:59--> 01:31:13

Well, I mean, obviously, Donald Trump's parents created him right, and by the permission of God, right, by coming together. So that doesn't mean I meant to say anything good or bad about Donald Trump.

01:31:14--> 01:31:16

We pray for him. May God guide him.

01:31:19--> 01:31:30

So this is what I'm saying? Absolutely, by the permission of God, prophets do miracles. They do miracles, prophets do miracles, what Jesus did, he made

01:31:32--> 01:32:07

a bird out of clay and blew into it, and it became alive, that was a miracle given to him by God. And if anything, ladies and gentlemen, you should see the value of Jesus we have in our hearts, we the Muslims, we love him daily as one of our greatest prophets. The Quran glorifies him. The Quran glorifies his mother, to an extent that there is an entire chapter named after her, Mary, there is nothing about Prophet Muhammad's mother in the Quran. nothing, not even a sentence. But the mother of Jesus, is there an entire

01:32:08--> 01:32:55

chapter for Mary to defend her honor to paint or to depict her as one of the greatest women who lived in human history? Why would an Arab praise the mother of a Jewish prophet because she was a great woman, she had to be defended. And this was prophesized by Jesus Christ in the Gospel of john, we are told in chapter 16, that Jesus said, that advocate who will come after me, he will glorify me, he will tell you things I haven't told you. So this was a prophecy in the Gospel of john which was fulfilled in the form of Prophet Mohammed as we the Muslims believe. And this particular issue is alluded to in the Quran. So that's my answer. prophets do miracles.

01:32:57--> 01:33:03

I have some time left, I think, sorry, 30 seconds. So

01:33:04--> 01:33:05

I think I'll stop here. Thank you.

01:33:14--> 01:33:30

So these three slips of paper all basically asked the same question. And this is the question that Zakir Naik loves to ask, which is where in the Bible does Jesus specifically say that I am God worship me, not what john says or what anyone else says. But Jesus Himself. Thank you.

01:33:32--> 01:33:38

Well, I pointed that out in my presentation, you don't so the system is shutting down.

01:33:43--> 01:33:45

I'll continue. I'll continue and

01:33:46--> 01:33:49

a bit of darkness is not gonna be too bad. Here we go. Main lights.

01:33:50--> 01:33:51

There we go.

01:33:55--> 01:34:05

So So the question is, where does Jesus say I am God, worship me. Now I actually pointed out where Jesus says that in, in the gospels, and it said, He's,

01:34:06--> 01:34:49

it is in his trial. And it's where they say to him, Are you the Son of God? Right? Are You the Messiah, the Son of God? And Jesus says, Yes, I am. And you will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven, and at that son of man is the one that people are going to come and bow down and worship in the Old Testament. And so, Jesus does not say I am God, in a way independent of His Father, God the Father, because we have a different view of God Father, Son, and spirit. He says, I am God in a way that acknowledges his father by saying, I am the divine Son of God, and you will worship me so just look at all of his trial accounts in the Gospels and you will find him saying

01:34:49--> 01:34:50

that their

01:34:57--> 01:34:59

next question for Adnan is

01:35:00--> 01:35:16

gospels record instances of people, even monotheistic Jews worshipping Jesus, and he allows it. How do you account for these? He references Matthew chapter 14, verses 33 and 28. Nine, Luke 2452. And john 938.

01:35:19--> 01:35:30

So the question was people worship Jesus and how did he How did he allow that? Why did he allow that? Is that the question? Thank you. That's a good question. I like that question.

01:35:32--> 01:35:34

So let's see what my answer is.

01:35:38--> 01:35:45

Before you start the time, this let me quickly find my evidence to this particular yet. Okay.

01:35:47--> 01:35:51

This will Armando Haim, thank you for that question. That's a good question.

01:35:52--> 01:36:03

There are many more examples in the Bible where people worshiped other people. For example, in the book of First Samuel, chapter 25, verses 23 and 24.

01:36:04--> 01:36:10

It states Abigail fell before David on her face and bowed herself to the ground.

01:36:12--> 01:36:28

Okay, this is worshiping. Then in the book of Genesis chapter 50, verse 18, we are told and his Joseph's brethren also went and fell down before his face and they said, Behold, we be thy servants. In the book of Daniel, chapter two.

01:36:30--> 01:36:49

Verse 46, verses 46 to 48. We read, then the King Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face and worshiped Daniel worshiped prophet Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an ablation and sweet auras onto them, or onto him. So what do we learn here, we learn

01:36:52--> 01:37:35

that the word worship is actually quite misunderstood by the Christians who read the biblical translations in the Greek language, the word is proxy. proxy, connection, proxy connection, right? Post kuhnian, right. pross conium, right. That's the word in the Greek language. And it is used, used across the board throughout the Bible. And there are people worshipping prophets like David Daniel, another example, this worship does not amount to worship as God. Rather This means honoring the Prophet, dignifying the Prophet, respecting the Prophet. And previously, people used to do that they used to bow these to fall down on Earth, they used to prostrate. It was allowed previously,

01:37:35--> 01:37:50

right? It happened to Jesus, this doesn't make him God. That's my answer to that, that question. And I have given you biblical passages to that effect. Very quickly. I want to mention something about john. One, one, a Samuel brought it up a few times that

01:37:51--> 01:38:39

this means turn theory on actually means Jesus is God with capital G, right. But if we go down in the Gospel of john again, same chapter, verse 18. States, no one has ever seen God. No one has ever seen God, if john means Jesus, is God with capital G. Why is he stating in the same chapter later on, no one has ever seen God? Does john not know that people saw Jesus? Surely, john is trying to tell you that Jesus is not God with capital G. Rather, what he meant was that he was a divine person. With lowercase D, you came as an agent of God. And by the way, that wording was directly borrowed from a Greek philosopher called Philo, Philo of Alexandria, who was a contemporary of Jesus

01:38:39--> 01:38:52

Christ, a Jewish neoplatonic. philosopher. I'm not saying this. Christian scholars have acknowledged it for a very long time that the idea of logos actually came from Fido. Thank you so much.

01:39:06--> 01:39:08

Are you ready, Samuel? Okay.

01:39:11--> 01:39:35

Okay, so this person wants to ask, Where is the Trinity to be found in the Old Testament? did Abraham Moses and David, did they worship? You know, do they believe in the Trinity and provide an explicit reference please? Thank you. Thank you. thank thank you very much. Because I'm admin answered something from my debate in question time is a little bit naughty.

01:39:36--> 01:39:42

But your question allows me to legitimately answer it. So how do we how do we see the Old Testament?

01:39:44--> 01:39:45

So praise God, praise God.

01:39:47--> 01:39:59

How do we see the Trinity in the Old Testament on a site, the Old Testament experience of God absolutely was triadic. It absolutely is triadic and then brought up the idea of

01:40:00--> 01:40:38

No one has seen God. And honestly, that is that's correct. Even the New Testament will say God is in unapproachable light. But the experience of God for people in the Old Testament, so that is for Moses, David, was triadic. And we see that in that there is the transcendent father, that no one can see there is the messenger of his presence. And the messenger of his presence is sometimes translated the angel of the Lord. And when people encounter this angel of the Lord, they say, I've met God. And so I actually don't have, I don't have the references right here on me.

01:40:39--> 01:41:26

As Isaiah, I think it's 63 has all three together, the transcendent father, the, the Messenger of his presence, and the Holy Spirit. And so in the Old Testament, they, they had an experience of the Holy Spirit of God, that was how they encountered God. They had the messenger of his presence, that when people, you know, wrestle with God, it was with him, he's the messenger of his presence, the one who came to Abraham was the messenger of his presence. But when people met this one, they said, We have met God. And so what we see is that the Creator, God actually has his own agents into creation. Right? It's not that God is locked up in his transcendence, God's not locked up in his

01:41:26--> 01:41:53

transcendence, he has, he can be his own agent into creation. And in the Old Testament, it is absolutely triadic. There's the transcendent father, the Messenger of his presence, and the Holy Spirit who inspires, instructs and do various things. I'm pretty sure it's Isaiah 63. But if you want to look up, look up Anthony Rogers, on the internet, on YouTube, Anthony Rogers, and he gives great lectures on this. Now on this point, also

01:41:56--> 01:42:35

nn brought up the idea that, that this Trinity idea, and Jesus being the Word of God, comes from phylo, it actually doesn't come from phylo. And this is quite well known. It actually comes from the Jewish memory. And I can maybe get the title for this article later on. But the Jewish religion, before Jesus had this idea of the Divine Word of God, and Jewish scholars have actually written on this. And so it's not coming from phylo it's actually coming from something before phylo, which was a significant part of Jewish philosophy as part of Jewish commentary of the Bible. Anyway, thank you.

01:42:44--> 01:42:47

And then the next question I have is,

01:42:49--> 01:42:52

if it's obvious that God's chosen people,

01:42:53--> 01:43:17

Gods lowercase G, or sons of God, why does the impure spirit in Mark chapter three, verse 11, to 12, reacted Jesus in the way that it does, I read it. It says, whenever the impure spirit, whenever the impure spirits saw him, which is Jesus, they fell down before him and cried out, you are the Son of God. But he gave him the strict orders not to tell us about him.

01:43:18--> 01:43:21

So the question is, why did they react like that? If the Israelites around our

01:43:23--> 01:43:24

gods lowercase g?

01:43:30--> 01:43:32

Thank you for that question.

01:43:34--> 01:44:18

Why people fell and paid respect to him because he was the Messiah. The Jews were expecting a Messiah. And they recognized him as the Messiah, the Christ, the word Christ literally means the Messiah. And when they knew he was the Messiah, they bowed to him. They paid respect to him, they loved him, they followed him, some of them died for him. So, and the fact that he was called the Son of God, this concept in itself is so confusing. Is he the Son of God? Or is he God? And if he's the son of God, is he is his own son? If he is God with capital G, then is he his own son? Is he the son of the God?

01:44:20--> 01:44:26

Do you see my point, ladies and gentlemen? You don't? So the Son of God is the same as God?

01:44:27--> 01:44:59

That's the question you have to think about the Son of God. Because the sun is one and the God is another entity. There are two different beings, the sun is different to the God, right? The God who is being referred to in these passages, right? The sun cannot be God because he's the son. He is the Son of God. So if he is God, if Jesus is God, capital G, then he cannot be the son of himself. This doesn't make sense. It's very confusing. And that's why the Son of God means

01:45:00--> 01:45:49

biblically, a man of God because again, Israelites are called in a number of places, sons of God, sons of God, they are called gods. They are called gods, again with lowercase g. So, the Son of God title, if anything, it should show you that Jesus is referred to himself as a son of God. I agree. 100% example, here we have an agreement samro undulations right? Definitely Jesus refer to himself as the Son of God, why did he keep calling him self? Son of God? Why didn't he call himself God? Because Son of God, the Jews understood it as a prophet as a messenger of God. So when they picked up stones, to stone him for blasphemy, how do you defend himself? The Jews said, They accused him

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that you make yourself God. He said, No, no, no, hold on. Does he not say in your law? In the book of Psalms 82, verse six, the you are God's, I only claim to be the Son of God. So he responds to that accusation that charge against him by calling himself the Son of God. In other words, he does not confirm the charge. He doesn't say, Yes, I am God, no, I'm, I'm claiming to be God, no, he doesn't say that. He says, I'm the son of God. Your Lord tells you that you are God, I am only claiming to be the Son of God. So this is how he responds. That's the context. So if he was God, ladies and gentlemen, he could have clearly stated that I am God, you have to worship me. And if he

01:46:29--> 01:46:42

didn't do that, we cannot accept Him as God because He himself taught us that he worships God alone. he worshiped God, the Father Himself, he worshipped a universal God, he did not worship himself. Thank you so much.

01:46:51--> 01:46:52

Okay, now this is a fun question.

01:46:53--> 01:46:59

If Jesus comes in your dream tonight, and says to you, Samuel, why are you doing this to me?

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Why don't you worship the God I worship? How would you respond to Jesus?

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will obviously I don't believe he's going to say that.

01:47:18--> 01:48:01

And I doubt that he he would I mean, if Jesus said that, then I'd be surprised. And my reason that I would be surprised, is because of the difference between the Bible and the Quran at this point, in that the Bible is not one book, but a collection of many books for many prophets over about a 1500 year period. It has the law of Moses, the books of the prophets, Psalms of David Brooks of the gospel. It's, it has this amazing unity of Scripture that I tried to outline tonight, showing the doctrines of God dwelling with these people, the doctrine of creation and what that means God's accommodation. And so as Christians, we don't just follow one profit.

01:48:02--> 01:48:29

Right? So and so this is where the Quran is very different to the Bible, because for Muslims, the Quran is what Muhammad recited and claimed came from the angel Gabriel, but it's still one man, one man who tells you about the prophets, whereas in Christianity, we don't have anyone like that. We don't do that we actually just read all the prophets. So we read the law of Moses, we read the Psalms of David, we read Isaiah, Ezekiel, it's actually hard work.

01:48:30--> 01:48:37

It's actually hard work, you talk to a Christian, they're probably saying, I need to be reading it more, I'm slack and tight, you know, you should be rooting.

01:48:38--> 01:49:04

But, but and so what I believe about God dwelling with his people, what I believe about the promises of God coming, they're not just from one man. They're actually from many prophets over hundreds of years. And so because of that, because of what the Bible is that it's old, it's this unified message of this God, as I pointed out before, who interacts with these people in a triadic way, in the profits, from the law of Moses onwards, it's triadic.

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And so I see this unity of Scripture amongst all the prophets coming to their fulfillment in Jesus. And so when I see that, I go, I believe all the prophets, I'm not just following one man, because from the Christian perspective, and I don't mean to be rude here, but from the Christian perspective, we see Islam as similar to the Baha'i religion, in that the Baha'i religion believes in Jesus, they believe in Mohammed, you cannot be about height unless you love Jesus. You cannot be about how much you love Muhammad. But then he listened to what their Prophet says about all the other prophets. And so for us that that's, unfortunately that's how we see Islam as well. It's one

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man who tells you what to believe about everyone else, whereas the Christian spirituality is we have to go and read all the prophets. And and so our book is quite big, but we've got to go and read them all and when we do that, we see that they are

01:50:00--> 01:50:04

point us to the coming of God's Spirit filled signing Jesus. Thank you.

01:50:12--> 01:50:19

None. In john chapter 14, verses six to 11. Philip asked Jesus, to show them the Father,

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Jesus answers by saying that he is in the parlor, and the father is in him. He also says that anyone who has seen him has seen the Father, and that anyone who knows him knows the father had to explain this.

01:50:42--> 01:50:45

Okay, that's a good question. Thank you very much for that question.

01:50:46--> 01:50:47


01:50:49--> 01:50:51

you have given a reference from

01:50:53--> 01:51:00

the New Testament that Philip said, asked, and Jesus said, anyone who's seen me has seen the Father. What's the problem with that?

01:51:02--> 01:51:07

So Jesus is the supreme agent of God on earth, and he has

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manifested God's power on earth. He is the agent of God. Anyone who has seen him has seen the Father. And we find this in the Old Testament. So when Jacob wrestled with God, this is what the Bible states, Jacob, wrestled with God, did he wrestle with God the Father, no biblical scholar understands that passage like that. None of them, actually they say, Jacob wrestled with an angel who was an agent of God, therefore he wrestled with God indirectly. Likewise, Jesus is saying, I am one with the Father, Father is in Me and Me. And then Jesus, same Jesus stated in the same New Testament, that you are in me, and I am with you. We are one. And Samuel can come come and confirm

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that. So if disciples are one with Jesus, that are they also God? No, he would say no. So why do you claim that about Jesus when He says, Father, and I have one for example, they are wanting purpose. If you've seen Jesus, you've definitely seen God's power, God's majesty, God's dignity, God's honor, because he is representing God. But that doesn't mean God himself has come on Earth. Because in the Old Testament, as I clearly stated, no one has seen sorry, Jacob wrestled with God. The Bible clearly states that right, but then john states, and chapter one, verse 18, no one has ever seen God. I'm sure john knew the Old Testament.

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What john means no one has ever seen God the Father, the Supreme God, who created the heavens of the earth, the one we call Allah, the One who was called below him, the one who was called Allah He by Jesus, if he was on the cross, stating that. So this point is very, very important for you to understand that there are many biblical passages that can be easily misunderstood by the Christians and they have been misunderstood for centuries, unfortunately, for centuries, right? If you read the Bible, uniformly, firstly, you can't read the Bible uniformly as a uniform text because there are so many different prophets and what's wrong with one Prophet, giving the message from God. Muhammad is

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one man of course, he's one man, of course. And Moses was one man. Daniel was one man. David was one man, if David priests to his people, and his people turned around said, If you only one man, why do we have to listen to? Well, if that man is from God, you better listen to him?

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You better listen to him. If you don't listen to him, You are rejecting God, I can turn around and say Jesus is only one man, why do we have to listen to Jesus? There should be another prophet telling us Jesus is God. Right? So this logic doesn't work. In a debate like this. Thank you very much.

01:54:01--> 01:54:03

This will be the final question of the night.

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In Matthew, chapter 24, verse 36, it says, No one knows the day or the hour, not even the sun, but are the angels but the father only. And he wants to know about the Holy Spirit. Why doesn't the Holy Spirit know they are?

01:54:21--> 01:54:32

You know that this is something where Christians would ponder this, and go, when Jesus is no one knows the hour, not even the father, sorry, not even

01:54:33--> 01:54:59

the No man, we're sorry, I don't have a Bible in front of me. But he sort of gives a degrees of people, he actually doesn't mention the Holy Spirit. And so we need to be careful to say that it's not the Holy Spirit that the Holy Spirit doesn't know. For instance, in Matthew 11, Jesus says, No one knows the Father except the Son, and no one knows the son except the Father. Now, he's not excluding the Holy Spirit at that point, even though he doesn't mention them.

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He doesn't mention the Holy Spirit. And so I think, I think I'd want to be careful by by looking at Matthew 24. And saying before the Holy Spirit doesn't know, because when I look at Jesus speaking in that type of language elsewhere, I think it's pretty clear that he's, he's not excluding the Spirit. And so that would be my answer there to to look at how Jesus speaks in those exclusive terms elsewhere. Because I think when we look at that, we actually see that he'd be saying that the Spirit does know.

01:55:36--> 01:55:48

Thank you, Nan and Sam, we have many, many, many questions that you've put in. And we could be here all night discussing them. And I'm sure many of us would enjoy that. But others of us will need to get home.

01:55:50--> 01:55:56

So I'd like to invite Adnan to present his concluding statement.

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Ladies and gentlemen, this has been an exciting debate. Thank you so much for being such a vibrant, lively, happy audience. I'm sure you're all very happy. Now that we have established that Jesus is definitely not God with capitalism.

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And it is clear to me, and perhaps to many of you that there is nothing clear in the Bible that states anything like Jesus is God with capital G. And if that's the case, ladies and gentlemen, you as intelligent people, as sincere people who love God, you have to take God seriously and change your view on that point. It is a safer position, to hold God the Father as a god and worship Him alone because Jesus Himself worshipped Him. Jesus did not worship at Trinity, never Jesus worship the Father alone.

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Because he said to that Samaritan woman, in chapter four, verse 21, that we know what we worship You, you, you know, not what you worship, because we worship the Father, in spirit, we worship the Father we means us. He was from the tribe of Israel, he was an Israelite. And in the garden, who gets so many we are told when he goes further, in chapter 26, verse 39, he fell on his face, Jesus fell on his face, and he prayed to God.

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And his disciples saw him pray to God, which God God, the Father, the God of Israelites, and he prayed just like David, just like Moses, because all of them, they fell on their faces, and they prayed to God. And do you know, ladies and gentlemen, how Muslims pray today? Have you seen Muslim pray, we fall on our faces, and we pray to the same God. So the Christians must follow Jesus in worship, in belief in behavior,

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even in how we do things in life, generally. Right. And that can be so many topics we can discuss tonight. But in my opinion, tonight, it has been established beyond doubt that Samuel could not support in my opinion, his case. And he can, of course, come and talk about it. And I would like to thank him again, he's a gentleman is a very nice man, I would like to request from him a personal request that he should stop writing for websites like answering islam.com he's a very nice man. He's a very nice guy I know him personally is is a friend. And it hurts me when I see Samuel Greene's articles on a website like that, a website that promotes Islamophobia actively, and it affects 1000s

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of people around the world. I would like to see his articles on an independent website in a more friendly fashion, and a more reaching for, I mean, you would you would never see any of my writings on a Christian Christian phobia website. I love Christians. I have never insulted Christians willingly or intentionally. I always, always like to clarify that I love Christians. And I would like to continue

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with this. In this spirit, I want you to watch our debates, listen to our discussions, our lectures, and read our articles. And I ask God Almighty to guide you all to the truth wherever it is. Thank you so much for listening.

01:59:39--> 01:59:59

Now, don't stop the sorry, don't start the clock yet because I didn't give my gift to admin. And so the time has come for me to give it to me now. Adnan has given me a centuries old silver historical piece of mobile history. And so I've got a gift for you as well.

02:00:01--> 02:00:03

So I've got a Tasmanian tea towel.

02:00:07--> 02:00:10

I've got a tazzy Tiger Notepad.

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And I've got a jar of Vegemite.

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I am glad there was no Tasmanian devil in there.

02:00:41--> 02:01:20

Okay, so, Mike, for my concluding statement, I want to say thank you for coming tonight, it is a very important issue where we hold very different views. And we need to work it, we need to work through it. And I think tonight has been really good to actually engage with the scriptures. And to look at what they say, obviously, a lot more could be said and you know, to give the short statements which we give, limits what we can say, but I really hope that it's giving you something to work with, something to think about. And so I'm just gonna give a quick summary of my presentation again, I started off by looking at theology, and the theological concepts that we have,

02:01:20--> 02:02:03

as believers in God. And I showed you that believing in creation that God is created means that you believe God connects with creation. And so that's an important foundation for reincarnation, that God can connect and is compatible to reveal himself in creation, we saw that God accommodates himself. So the the infinite God, every time he interacts with creation in any way, it's finite. And so the Incarnation is not a contradiction. That's just how God interacts with creation on any time. We saw that God's plan in the law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms, and the gospel is that God is going to come to dwell with us. In the prophets, we're not on a journey to God, God comes to us.

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And that's just what the prophet say. And we saw that when God made us in His image, it meant that when God when the divine Son takes to himself a human body, he's actually using a body that he just made for the express purpose of demonstrating his of His glory of showing his his rulership. And so we see that there is a logical, there are logical grounds for the incarnation. It's actually logical, theologically logical, and there actually is no confusion about it. I keep hearing that it's confusing. It's confusing. It's not that confusing. When we look at the scriptures, we see that it the promises that God will come, we see Jesus doing things that only God does, and he does them

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in the way that God does them. He is given the titles of God and he himself says that he is the divine Son, to whom all worship when we looked at the Quran, I want to push back on that and say that when Jesus creates birds from mud and breathes into him, his own breath, gives them life, that that is no ordinary event. That is no ordinary miracle. That is something that only God does. And so it's not just any miracle. Now, to finish up, I'd like to say that I'd like to offer you a gospel account to read for yourself. We've got some material down there, and I would love it if you could read the gospel for yourself and meet Jesus in the Gospel. Thank you very much.

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Before I return one last time to thank our speakers, I'd like to invite Tim wires and Hammonds via to the front again, to remind us of how we can connect with the Christian Union. And with that as Saif initiative. Thank you.

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Thanks, Ben. Just quickly,

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Adnan and Sam have grappled with this topic of is Jesus God tonight, but it's something that each and every single one of us in this room has to grapple with. And so I encourage you to, if you're a Christian, to,

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to grapple with it to read the Quran with a Muslim, if you're a Muslim, to have a look through the prophets and the Gospels with a Christian.

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And also if you would like to get involved, or find out more about the Christian Union, you can find us online at our website, on Facebook, or you can come along here every Tuesday at 1pm. And we have talks from a scripture Thanks.

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Thank you, Simon Adnan for what was undoubtedly an interesting debate, whether it is known whether the Prophet Mohammed sallallahu alayhi wa sallam is foretold in the Bible, or if Jesus is God. conversations like these are necessary as they keep us intellectually in spirit

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At least it seemed stimulated. Thank you, Simon green for coming to Perth, and for asking us Muslims the hard questions. And thank you admin for coming to Perth as well. And for those of you who aren't aware, he will be flying to Melbourne tomorrow, where he will be having to debate with another Christian. So make sure you watch out for that as well. Before I sit down, I just have two requests. The first request is, remember that name a safe initiative. Okay, because this is not the last you'll hear of us. And as Jesus Himself said, Be vanilla by the permission of God. We'll be planning bigger things in the future. So make sure you like and follow us. And the second request that I

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have, as you see that display today, that's not just the to look pretty, pick it up. So as soon as you're done, talking, whatever and you're going out, pick up whatever you want, whether you're Muslim, or Christian, just pick up something. Well hello, Donna Anil hamdu Lillahi Rabbil aalameen.

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Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to start by thanking you for coming tonight. Thank you for taking the time out of your schedule to come and engage with this incredibly important topic. You've been a fantastic audience. I hope you found it helpful and stimulating as we've engaged not only with the words of men, but as we grapple with the words of God as well. Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to thank Adnan Rashid and Samuel green, for coming and speaking to us on this topic would you please join me in thanking them.

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Lastly, thank you to to the UW a Christian Union to the curtain Christian Union, to the as cife initiative and to the Islamic Council of Western Australia. Thank you for putting on this event. Thank you for the good spirit that it's being conducted in and we pray that there will be many more like this in the future as Christians and Muslims engaged together. Thank you