Abdurraheem Green – Loving & Hating for other than Allah
AI: Summary ©
The conversation discusses the concept of shaytan and how it is used to divide people, including issues of individualism and disparities between groups. The speakers emphasize the need for acceptance and acknowledgement in society, as it is often a form of social care that is not only about sex and may not be a sexual thing. They also discuss the importance of avoiding harks back to Islam and the negative impact of disrespecting women. The mix of technical jargon and phrases includes "has been" and "has been," which stand for specific situations or events." The speakers acknowledge that "has been" is not the end of the world and emphasize the need for acceptance of cultural differences.
AI: Summary ©
I'm Ali komang to Llahi. We're our cattle. And welcome to our viewers slightly earlier time for you over there in the UK, not from the over here and I'm sure others abroad in Malaysia and other countries as we've been getting feedback about the early hours of the morning discussions that ensued after our piece. A lot of rock Allah. But I want to welcome our brother, our dear brother who's here with me again, him over there. And that is missing. This is abdur-rahim Green. And that one over there is Abdullah Baker. And this is point A piece this is a piece of cake pointing the wrong direction. So they flipped his round normally I'm on that side and you're on this. That's
right.
Around again, all right.
hamdulillah brother Ibrahim Zakzaky I think the last few weeks we've really been engaging on some sensitive subjects yo sila Wiley, come Salam as well to pee pee peed. I think Kira, good to see you here. Wellington salam after law, and system and over again, many of you sad all of you. Welcome. Welcome, Marcia. A lot of our color. Yeah, abdur-rahim. I think now, the title, the emergence of gender politics, and some may say that it's always been there. But I think the title and the connotation today loving and hating for other than our law, I think it's an interesting title and topic to cover because we're seeing a polarization more so between brothers and sisters, because of
what has crept in, of the gender politics, from outside of the Muslim community. And we're seeing as well, that, I believe, but it's a question I'll ask you
that the progressive politics that we're seeing so called progressive politics, I think has jumped on the bandwagon of the gender politics, and incorporated elements of that, that is antithetical to Islam. Now, that doesn't mean we're talking. That means if you're on that, you're either on gender, gender politics, and what that means today, or you're on misogyny, Red Pill itself, it doesn't mean that it means that where is that middle ground where the harmony of the Muslim man and the Muslim woman is? Where is that middle ground? Now? It's still there. But how apparent is it? Has it been obscured because of this gender politics and the fact that you're seeing that polarization between
brothers and sisters, as you know, we're seeing here in this discussion about red pill, black pill Insell. And I'm hearing from some sisters who have contacted both of us about the disgusting things that have been said by brothers, about women about Muslim women. So I'll hand over to because I've got some observations to make on that. As it relates to the deen and where we're supposed to be, and where we fall short. Both as brothers and sisters in this polarization.
I've been thinking about this,
since we decided to talk about this subject and obviously did a bit of reasoning reading around it. And again, it's not like I don't think it's a subject that either you or me are super familiar with. But looking into looking into it, I think the root I think there are two well there's there's one root cause I think that there's a root cause of this. Yeah. And obviously that shaytaan
Yeah, but it is really a che tonic. It is that that's that's what she told wants to do. He wants to make division between us, right? That's why a last one tell her what Allah said about that, you know, the shaitaan wants to stir you know that He Allah tells us keep away from intoxicants and gambling you know, and when you call it lots divining with arrows Yeah. Because why? Because through it shaytaan wants to so enmity and division amongst us. So, this is just part of the, you know, this is part of shaytans plot. He wants to divide us he wants to cause enmity and hatred and division between us in whatever way it may be. And obviously, dividing the sexes, you know, races, whatever
it may be.
You know, all of these type of things are shaytan uses them as tools to divide us. And I think that the reason why it's become so prominent and why you could almost say Shere Khan has become extremely successful, it seems to me to really, and seems to go back to the extreme idea of individualism that we have in society at the moment
that it is so individualistic, so materialistic, and individualistic.
And it's almost that this, that the individual that every person feels, that they are literally the center of the universe. Right? And that, that's it, that's how you look at the whole Insell you know, men on their own men making a go of it on their own, whatever it is, you know, red pill, this and that. And I'm sure like every all of these movements, whether it's feminism, whether it's the red pill, red pill, in sell men on their own movement, whatever. I'm sure they all have real, genuine issues and concerns and problems behind what has motivated them. Yeah, right. No doubt about it.
And I'm sure I don't think it's fake. I don't think there are not genuine issues. I don't think they're I don't think there are not real problems. I think there are, and they may have some real, genuine reasons, reasons for concern.
However,
yeah, it's it's like any any of these things when you take it too far when you become extreme in it. And, you know, as Helios has pointed out to us a few weeks ago that, you know, you know, this is now the number one cause of terrorism in the world, right? Not in the world, but at least in the West. Yeah.
Is these white males, these in cells who are shooting people, particularly women, killing women, and so on and so forth? Yeah, I think it comes down to like I said, individualism, thinking you're the center of the universe, having a very warped opinion of yourself. I mean, anyone just just, you know, anyone who watches the X Factor?
What a one on one of the I don't know, which is the one where they, you know, they come and sing to Simon Cowell and his group of whatever, right. But forget that bit. The bit. Is that the the auditions before they you see these people who are horrific, horrific. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And like, who told this person in their life that they could sing? Right? It's just, it's whether they did, the point being, it's the state of self delusion that people have, they are so deluded, they are so unable to simply face the reality of themselves and to look at themselves in the mirror and be honest, or for anyone else, to be honest with them. I think this is really what it comes down to
this this individualism, this this type of delusional
thinking that people have and but apply that same thing to a man and how we think, you know, what sort of woman does he think he's going to be able to get? Seriously? Honestly, if you are not, if you're, you know, a very good looking guy. Yeah. You're not good looking. You're not well off. You're not educated, you're not intelligent. You're not smart. You sit at home playing computer games and watching * and yet you think you're entitled to the prettiest girl in the school?
That is that is poignant. That's absolute right. It's just delusional, bro. Why would you think you did you why? Why would she even look at you? But even even that, that's right, what you've said and, and I'm obviously not referring to two of us best looking guys on the show at the moment. I'm not afraid to myself.
But no cut seriously. When we look, for example, Jake Davison, I'm looking at his picture. Now. The Plymouth shoots Plymouth shootings months ago, and he's not a bad looking guy.
That's an exception. But the point is, everything you've said is correct. Where is this self entitlement coming from the because you're unable to engage, attract women or be the center of attention and as you've mentioned, individualism, that now you can not only go out and kill, but then you develop in some occasions, hatred towards any female including your mother and kill these before member rally killed his mom on this occasion. So we see the one of the first attachment to the Insell movement in Canada.
A few years ago, with the killing that took place, then from the individual who I think turned up a store or whatever. So it's that self entitlement. And
it's important that those who are with us understand that individualism is a construct, it is a concept. It's not something that abdur-rahim is just saying, we've become individualistic. No, it is a societal construct, we saw that, with the UN I was reading about these wonderful books that I'm reading are going off on a tangent, but it was individualism that was at the heart of the inability of the Bosnians, the Serbs, and everyone else, to actually come back come together, or can retain semblance is not the problem. But it was an aspect of that retain that solidarity. What even if it was a shaky one that existed prior, and especially post with the tensions that are there now,
because there was that drive of individualism appealing to these various ethnicities in different ways that they could appeal to them. And this was this was an element that was mentioned there. So individualism is a concept that is being promoted within society. And this is why you're seeing many breakdowns, not only of gender, genders and the disparities that are there, but you've seen it in a family, you've seen it from fathers Sons Daughters, it goes right through it permeates everything abdur-rahim, you're right, the family unit, and even talking about family, something that's frowned upon today. And while Muslims will say no, we are about the family, we're about the family unit and
the structure and everything. When you look within, you'll see that individualism is also there amongst many of our families. And when we look at the heart of the disparities that are there, including gender issues, like I don't know, if you've had challenges Abderrahim with your daughters, I have and continue to, and maybe it's because I'm old school, or I don't know what it is, but they're speaking in a language, or some of them not all speaking in a language of their generations today, which are alien to me.
It's like, hold on a minute. This is what how a woman is. And I'm not saying about my daughters, when they're talking about their environment. This is how a Muslim woman is supposed to be.
So you've got that dichotomy on one side. And then you've got that with the men, and the self entitlement and as though they know it all already. And then the religion is being used as a tool to further that polarization. So brothers now who are embracing that Insell, red pill, black pill, whatever those those concepts are, they're embracing that and they're using religion. And you said something last week I'm doing which I think was very important. Not that I'm placing us in that context, but our idealism earlier on about the woman should be in the home. The role of the woman the role of the man, based on the text we were reading, we agreed we were reading that in abstract,
we hadn't actualized what that actually meant. But today, you've still got brothers, who will say no, no, no, no, I'm using this as a tool and measuring the woman against this. And if she doesn't stand up to what the prawn and Sunnah, says, in his literal or apparent meaning, then they are sinful, less than righteous, less than piety, put a pious not worth the attention. And then the disparaging comments come and they bring Hadith, they bring Hadith they bring the relations, which what does it do? It sheds doubt for those who are looking in on the religion, because of the people who were referring to it. And often some of those individuals are very, very practicing apparently.
Brothers,
I think the thing is, probably is the,
again, it really just,
you know, it really just goes back exactly to what I was saying the two things that individual thinks he is the central he or she is the center of the universe, and that literally the universe revolves around that individual person, right? And that feeling of self entitlement, almost the feeling that this person can't do anything wrong. If you think you're the center of the universe, then the universe in your imagination is there to, in a sense, serve you and to fulfill your needs and your requirements. Right. This is what it does what I say when you think you're the center of the universe, you are the most important thing in the universe and everything as opposed to in a
sense, all bid and orientate around you and therefore that will definitely lead to that type of judgmental.
You know, that judgmental viewpoint where your vote you know, so the thing that you will notice about these people is that they will be very, very quick to
Use these various verses and these Hadith and whatever and you know, lay the smackdown on sisters, but they won't study. What does it mean to be a man in Islam? They won't they won't.
They won't study that. Right, they won't adopt for themselves. You find they may be on the dole. Right? They may be on benefits. Yeah, they don't work hard. They may be lazy, they, you know, all sorts of things you could say about them, right? In terms of their manners, and all sorts of things. Right. So it's very interesting that it just goes back to that same thing. And, you know, it reminds me that, you know, one of the things that I often find blamed or talked about, is that this sort of harks back to some, you know, the, which is, I guess, is quite, which is true, in a sense that in the West, you know, you have this, these heroic figures, the idea of the hero, right. And you may
think that, you know, this idea of the hero is, is something that really pushes people towards this highly individualistic idea of yourself. But in fact, in reality, the interesting thing is that the original idea of the hero was almost the opposite, right? A true hero was the person who was ready to sacrifice himself and put everything on the line, right for the sake of helping his community. And that's the reality. That's what, that's what a really a hero really, really was.
A hero was a person who defended his people defended his community, helped his people, that's it wasn't about himself. And he wasn't in it for self glorification, the hero or the heroine was in it for the benefit of the wider community. And like I said, I mean, this, I think this sort of extreme version of, of individualism is a very modern phenomenon. Like, like we said, there's nothing new under the sun. I think the other thing that I wanted to add, as well, as I do think that there is another major problem,
which I'm not sure is, you know, I'm not sure, I don't know how much it has been studied. And I suspect it hasn't been
because Western academics generally will not looking at this type of area. But I do think that there is a problem with the objectification of women, especially in *, that woman, you know, yeah, with the objectification of women in *, and fashion, and so on, and so forth.
So this, this is only going to compound that problem is that
often you probably find, again, that these these groups of people, again, possibly, almost probably, maybe definitely spend a lot of time looking at *. And that is shown to have very, very damaging effects on how a person thinks, how they interpret the world, how they look at women.
So there's a whole raft of problems that are societal as well, because often what they may find is that when they what they see in society may in some ways, actually genuinely reflect those experiences. I mean, not 100%, but you know, you know, like, I remember one of our brothers,
we can't remember, may or may Allah have mercy on you know, may Allah
give him us recovery? And you know, I remember I was Sofia, yeah, he used to say that he used to say that, you know, like, with the prostitutes don't know what to wear anymore. Because whatever they're wearing, then it becomes fashion. Right? Because, you know, prostitutes, would you know, they stand on the street corner trying to make themselves stand out, right. So that dress more outrageously, and then everyone else starts dressing like that. And it's like, they don't even know what more outrageous how to get because it's just become the normal dress code. Right.
And, you know, again, I do think that is a genuine problem. And I don't think this has anything to do with feminism. I think it's the opposite of feminism. I don't think that is empowering for women. I don't think the sexualization of women empowers them. It doesn't in no way, shape or form does IT project the idea of women being empowered of being wanting to be treated as intelligent beings, rather than as * objects by men, right. And again, I go back to saying that in React, you can say whatever you like, the idea that a woman could dress in any way she likes. You know, I used to say this about nuns, for example, right, and that goes back to the hijab.
The whole concept of the hijab, right?
Is that you know, everyone understood that when you see a nun, it says a lot of things about her, and the way that she's dressed or the way that nuns used to dress, maybe not so much anymore, but the way they used to dress very similar to hijab, very, very similar, right? It will force you to treat that person in a certain way, because you know that that person is religious, that person is chaste at the end. And her dress makes a statement that corresponds to that behavior. And like I used to say to kids used to visit me, I said, she could just wear a really super tight t shirt, and nothing else except a tight t shirt. And, and she could have none written across cross her *,
they wouldn't exactly quite do the same thing. Would it as wearing a proper habit? Yeah. But you can say, Oh, look, she's a nun. But how would you react to that? Just because she's got none on her t shirt? No, like, so the dress, the way you dress, the way you behave the way you appear. And this is just as true by the way of men. I'm not just picking on women is just as true of men as well, right? These things do make an impact, and they have a difference. So I think again, these there's no doubt that, like I go back to the main point that I started with, is that a lot of these things, whether it's feminism, whether it's the insole, the red pill movement, they have some real genuine points to
make, that have to be addressed. And I fundamentally think I've got hot bro, it's it's to do with people leaving their fitrah people live in their nature. I do think 100% that Islam has the solution for all of these. When I say verse solution, of course, that's simplistic. Yeah. But I do believe 100% that if people follow the Islamic guidelines, society, families, everybody would be so much better off. Not Absolutely. And I think not only adhering to the deen. But as Shamas sister Sam has just said, but being totally honest and truthful and sincere to ourselves, you know, yesterday's caught my eye and Hamdulillah I was asked to do to cook but it was about the sincerity of the
Prophet Muhammad salallahu Salam, and it was border narration when he came down from Mount Hira, and he was afraid. And Khadija archeological and basically said, there's no need to be afraid because of his sincerity, his truthfulness and everything. And it is about that, however, after him on this, talking from the point of religion, we see now that some of these men who have these distorted views, because of some issues, psychological, religious, distortion, and otherwise, that's been supported,
deliberately or inadvertently, by some females in their family. So for example, we see that some mothers would be supporting their son saying, You need to have a wife who is like, ABCD. Yeah, okay. And that son, then looks for a sister
shows a particular way that appears ideal shows that some family security with the mother and the family and everything, and if it's from the South Asian culture, I don't know about Arab culture in that, in that instance, she moves in, and she becomes subject to misogyny, she becomes subject to those beliefs, where she is a slave in every sense of the word. And the thing is, she realizes and identifies that this man is just an instrument or a vessel of the mother's beliefs, not the father's. It may be on occasion the father, but the mother's beliefs and that he is performing, or he's become even worse, now that he has within his grip voice now.
And it's not a marriage. So yeah, that's where you'll see these brothers aligning themselves with Insell beliefs with misogyny. And they're using the Dean plus they have the support of a female which makes it all the more powerful, because female saying this is the way to be, the woman should be and yet he sees that his mother was not treated this way by the Father. In fact, the mother, the matriarch was the head of that particular household because you've got a weak father, or a father who's docile, or a father who's basically just detached or he's completely absent. So you see that in the religion, then it moves to another dimension, which is all the all the more all together more
sinister when it's got the involvement of women doing this. And that's the for example, the
FGM movement, and you'll see that there are women, female genitalia, and we will see.
Yeah, you've got you've got your see that there are women who are the ones perpetuating this. Yeah, on their daughters performing it. In the name of religion, which is not the religion never spoke about this happening. Okay, circumcision is different from FGM in that instance, and it's not an obligation so far as the women are concerned anyway, and I don't know anywhere that does it properly today anyway, not that I've been quiet. So you see, that this is furthered by women, which obvious case, which obscures this whole gender politics, when it's been perpetuated by the same *. So I've mentioned the mother's side and supporting the son. And I've said, then you've got women who are
perpetuating this gender aspect of FGM. So these things within the religion, come back to what you're saying, which is that if we honestly look at the religion not to use a religion, so that we confer about what our desires are, but to open ourselves up completely, to say, what does the Dean say, I must do in these instances. And we all struggle with that to varying degrees. But it's when we ignore that completely and say, I'm going to utilize and take this understanding, because it furthers the psychological issues I have regarding women, it furthers and obscures the insecurities I have within myself, and lack of confidence that I have in myself, but I can hold the Drina and
chastise and really
denigrate the opposite six, because of what I've experienced, or my own insecurities. And this is, conversely, the same for women as well. Women who have issues may not be attractive, according to the requirements of society of that of the this particular society that they're in, may not meet what they're seeing in the media may not meet what they see, amongst sisters, they may be of particular ethnicity, and a minority amongst majority aspects of sisters. And they feel that and so therefore, that marginalize eight marginalization causes them to have a negative aspect regarding men or bitterness towards men and everything about men, or they've had a bad relationship, or have
had a bad set of relationships with men, and therefore it puts them in a particular paradigm, it's understandable that they're in that paradigm. I will stop on this point. But it all comes back to what you conclude with just when you mentioned that there is what is our relationship to the deen and our sincerity with regards to what we are taking from it.
Yeah, it's very interesting about the fit of what I'm very familiar with. Is that in certain cultures, exactly what you're saying how the, the mother in law, or the mother of the, you know, the man in the relationship, sort of eggs her son on, this is like, a whole dynamic, you know, this is like, our whole the servitude of the daughter in law to the mother in law.
You know, the way that she are? I mean, you know, it's a huge topic in and of itself, but the main aspect I think, you know, that is connected to our discussion today
is the way that the boy the and I know that my wife, right is this is what she hated and hates about Pakistani you know, her culture right as she although she's sort of born in England, but you know, that
anyway, aspects of I would say, you know,
self whatever you call it Southeast Asian culture, or, you know, yeah, it's this whole way the man is put on the pedestal, he can get away with whatever he likes, you can do whatever he likes he can. He can be like a dirty dog. Yeah. Literally doing his dirty dog business with women left, right and center. Yeah.
You know, and that's almost acceptable. Yeah. But of course, the girl has to be this chaste pure virgin. Yeah.
Even though he's been, you know, running around like a dog everywhere. Yeah.
But yeah, he's entitled to marry this, you know, this. Pious hijabi virgin girl who is now supposed to be a slave to him, even though he's incapable he doesn't work right. Often. She's though I know these examples. She works. She's the one who brings in the money. Yeah, she has to look after the kids. What does he do? Nothing he looks really does nothing. yet. I mean, maybe just provide the sperm for the children. Right?
I mean, it's that that's how low the position of the and this is literally all support and then obviously terrorizing his wife. No. Oh, yeah. Let's add to that he has to look after his aging parents as well. Right. So she's got she's working. She's looks after the kids. She has to look after his parents on top of that. Right and serve him. Yeah.
I mean, I think slaves get better treated than that. Yeah. Right. I
mean, doing nothing. Almost nothing. Yeah. If anything? Yeah, yeah, except being a flippin tyrant. And like you said, this is all supported and encouraged by his mother. And this is how she's bought him up. And this is how these people are bringing their sons up with this self. This idea of entitlement. This is actually what is happening until today. They are so you know, oh, our son. You know, when a daughter is born, it's like, it's like Janelia exactly, bro. Like how Allah describes it in the Quran. You know, like, if a daughter is born, they want to hide. Yeah, they feel they feel ashamed. Oh, I had a daughter. Yeah. When it's the sun. Oh, my son, the sun the sun, right? The sun
is this.
This is not helping anything, bro. This is not helping anything.
And again, you can see why this drives
our sisters in the direction and feminism right? It's just causing more and more division is causing more and more chaos. And of course, bro, as you know, and I know this has nothing to do with this lamb. This is not what Islam teaches. This is not from our deen Yeah.
Not in any way shape or form. So this is very dangerous very destructive. very negative.
And yeah, it's
how do you pull people out of this bro? You know you'd say you fear Allah. Fear Allah. But you know what, there's no
question of have you are the Emperor You are the king. You know?
It's very difficult for you to humiliate yourself and humble yourself. I don't mean to humiliate yourself. But I mean, humble yourself. Right? Because it all comes down to fighting the ego, which is the hardest thing you know, fighting your NASS, which is the hardest thing to do. But I mean, again, it goes back to this whole discussion. We had this last week and we've had it we've got ongoing discussion about patriarchy about why feminism has arisen. Why there are some really good reasons why women have not been treated well historically, and are still not treated well until today. That's just the fact. Right? And you know, give them an opportunity to stand up for
themselves and say stuff this I don't want to I don't want this in my life. Why shouldn't they? And then what men are complaining that women are too free and too independent. And I bro it's just you know, it's just unfortunately, the whole thing is just, you know, it's just a it's just a mess, right? Yeah. Obviously, you can say what is the solution for this? No, there is a solution. Right? I really truly believe there is a solution and the solution is when people fear Allah that's that when they're mindful of God. And we've said this before, bro. We said it before like that. She's that is not just your wife, she's your sister in Islam, everything Allah says love for your brother, what
you love for yourself. That applies to your wife even more than your friends and your mates that you hang out with right? All those Hadith about how to draw them respecting a Muslim not oppressing a Muslim they don't disappear just because that person is your wife. It's yeah, enhanced even more. That bro this is we are unfortunately, we are in a bit of a mess in some situation. I don't believe everybody's like that. And I do think there Mashallah. Lots of really, God fearing brothers and sisters who have Taqwa. And you know what, sometimes I'll be honest, there are lots of brothers and sisters who are not that practicing. They're not as Islamic. In fact, they're quite modern. Yeah,
but they seem to figure it out as well. Right? They understand that marriage is a partnership. And these are usually people who are better educated, right? They understand that, you know, we're going to build a family and that it's teamwork. And you know, we have to do things together and we have to share the load and we have to share the burden. And the understand that and they work together because they're intelligent enough to figure that out. Right? Because they that's all part of what is good life, having a good life.
I write. So these are some some of these people are not even that practicing, or maybe not even practicing at all, but they figure this out. So, you know, so there are handled, I think there are solutions, bro. But, you know, we are definitely facing, you know, some unprecedented
you know, some unprecedented issues like when you're hearing about people who are killing their mothers and killing women. Because of this, this is really serious bro.
And I think speaking to that, what we need to look at as well is that there are underlying insecurities from both genders. And we touched upon this before. And it goes right to the heart of intimacy as well. And it's once that vulnerability is being revealed. Women reveal that vulnerability to the man a lot easier than the man does to the women. And that's me speaking subjectively, I'm speaking from what I see from experience. But and she's more trusting. And she's able to do that her physiological, psychological makeup is she has children she has that she's been made that way, which makes her puts her at an advantage in actuality. So when the man who's got that
formerly societal perception of being the breadwinner, the strong one, that stiff upper lip, when he shows that within marriage, I'm talking intimately with sexual relationships, everything to the point of climax, and I'm speaking from that point, I mentioned this to you before. Yeah, he believes he's given something or men feel they've shared something. And the woman has seen them and experienced an intimacy and a weakness and a vulnerable, not that macho image that they may have seen before, or what they portray outside or, or that God complexes, Octavio is referred to it, you won't see that they see the very vulnerable, intimate, loving, in instances side of that man. And
sometimes there's a resentment of the man that she has seen him in that way that nobody, no one, yeah, ever seen before. So So then, then, you've given that something,
you've compromised a particular aspect to you
and who you've compromised it to,
you begin to be aware of them. If the if the love or that nice, soft, warm, glowing atmosphere and environment shifts between you, let's look at husbands and ex wives, not just Muslims, non Muslims. Let's look at where it was once upon a time to where it ended up. Let's look at the venom and the vitriol and everything that's there, some of us have witnessed and experienced it ourselves. And it goes back to that particular element there. And that shapes the perception of the woman shapes the perception of the man against each other, and against each other's gender. How many times have we sat and heard brothers when they're talking, and when this conversation gets going, and the
negativity with which they speak about women, and this can include up during this go back to the 90s? When and you and I didn't fall for that I think we made our own independent decisions after consulting research and taking advice. But when the brothers got together and was starting to talk about plural marriage, for example, and the verses would come out and the agony show but I've written encouraging someone will be going like Are you man enough and know the woman it says marry to that one is that is not the norm two or more? You smiling because you remember those conversations?
You'd see brothers leaving like yeah, they haven't even stopped. Gonna tell my wife, you know, I'm gonna tell my wife if you go against this, you're against the Sunnah. You are disobeying Allah. And but and that was happening Abdur Rahim and so that polarization is taking place in so let's continue that story. For example, the brother went ahead with that.
The sister became a comb wife. And then her rationale started to shift towards her husband.
She started to see elements of the Dean being abused. Yeah, but she didn't look like it didn't stay like that for that long. She started looking at the dean and saying why? Why would Allah do something that could allow this something that causes us to feel this way? And we're not allowed to articulate this way because then we're seen as being bad Muslim women, and then they start gravitating gravitating towards either sisters who are single or divorced, who will want to co wives. And what it does is it causes that polar array
As a nation within the deen, and what starts happening in some instances, is we start looking at the Dean brothers on one side, the sisters on the other, looking at the dean, and quietly internally, detracting from the Dean, but we weren't up to that, because it makes us look like bad Muslims. So instead, it plays out in the way we start treating and viewing other brothers and sisters. And the sad thing about this abdur-rahim is then it transfers to our children. Yeah, inadvertently or not. I mean, it's interesting for me that I think that comes from what, in my opinion, is a fundamental misunderstanding of why Allah has allowed something and why Allah has forbidden something. And it's
quite common. People seem to think that if something is haram, every single thing about that thing must be bad. Yeah. Which is problematic role because you and me will remember back from our old days, yeah, there were lots of haram things that we did, and definitely not every single thing about it was bad. That's right. And if you really think that you're going to be you're going to be struggling really hard with yourself and it's the same thing it's it's not because something is allowed that every single thing about it is good. No, like even within the allowed things or the the good things, the halal things there may be bad in it. For example, I don't know anyone who says
sugar is haram. Right? If you all you do is eat sugar, you're gonna die. Right? Same with meat, same with any, almost virtually anything you can think of. Right? So the fact that Allah has allowed polygamy doesn't mean that every single thing in polygamy is good, right? Of course, there is going to be some negative things. And Allah says this about alcohol in the Quran, he says in in it is some good.
And this is the this is the thing that the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam said about it is the mother of evils. So in the mother of evils, yeah. Intoxication with alcohol anyway, there is some good, but there is also bad and the bad is much greater than the good. So this is the this is why in Islam, it's an overwhelming or preponderance benefit in something. And it may not sometimes be that much, right? The difference may not be huge, but it's enough, right? And so that's a mistake. I think that if people got into that mindset, oh, well, if polygamy is so good, why are these things happening? Well, it doesn't mean that everything about polygamy is good, right? It just means that
it has some benefits. And the harms of prohibiting it are more than the benefits of allowing it. And to be honest, bro, it's very interesting. I was just reading I mean, although our discussion is not about polygamy, then maybe that's something we should talk about. I was just reading an article thing was either today or yesterday. Is that why, you know, human beings, and especially men generally just continue to fail to be monogamous, right? If you can pretend to be minigun minigun must, but you're not. And he was talking about how within Christian, you know, within Europe were monogamy and Monogamy was supposed is supposed to be the accepted norm. It simply wasn't. It's just
a myth. To the extent that they were talking about within royal families, for example, were the Mistress of the king was an official title, and that women would aspire to be the king's mistress. It was actually an official title in the court, the Mistress of the king. All right. And even to the extent that he, the article was pointing out one particular island or one emperor, or one, you know, one of the kings later on, he was totally devoted to his wife, and didn't want to have a mistress. But because he had to have a mistress because this position of mistress of the king was an official title. He took someone who's a minister has never had * with her never was intimate with
this mistress at all. But she was had this position of mistress of the king, even though he had no interest in anyone other than his wife. Right. So this idea
of the minute monogamy is just it's just an idea. And it's just never really been practically implemented.
In any places in human history, right? Even when the church tried to enforce it on people they abjectly failed, really. So that's you can see why Allah subhanaw taala has allowed it because surely the benefit of allowing it and then making sure that it is done in a halal way and that everyone
is treated justly and fairly, and everyone has correct and provisions under the Sharia, then you can see the wisdom of what Allah subhanaw taala has done.
Absolutely up to him. And then you know what, I'm going to come with it, then we've got the gender politicians from the sisters are saying, so why can't we have more than one husband?
Well, I mean, because I don't think I'll be honest, I don't think the dynamics are the same. I don't think that. And again, it goes down to simple biology. Women are not generally. And I obviously this is generally there are always exceptions, but generally women are not polygamous is not. It's not in their self interest to be polygamous. And it all goes down to child rearing bearing children. Right? And how to bring up those children. And how to, you know, from, from, I guess, a scientific point of view, it all comes down to those things, those basic drivers, right. It's not in the self interest of a woman to do that. It just then generally is not going to work out for her that well, right. I
agree with you on that. Because I want to post that question.
I mean, the bottom line is, Allah hasn't allowed it. But I'm just trying to give some rational reason. No, of course, of course. But let's look at some of the impracticalities around that and I'm going to give some examples without mentioning names. It might be a havior. Some of the women that I knew,
I remember what after after particular biopsy and just relaxing wonder friends and she told me she was pregnant. She already had a daughter, two children, actually. And she said to me, I said, so who's the father? And she said to me, do you know what to say? I don't really know. And I said, What do you mean, she's an intelligent woman? I said, What do you notice that she goes, you know, you know, we had the party the other night, and everything like that. She said, Well, it was two guys that actually slept with. So I'm not really sure which one I said, Doesn't that worry you? And she goes, Well, no, not really. I'm gonna raise the child doesn't really matter if one of the five is
asked who isn't everything. But she was even bothered about getting DNA test and everything like that. So and then when speaking to her and speak, and this is going way back into my job, before I became Muslim, when speaking to her and seeing, you've got famous actresses, now you've got favorite personalities there. They see it as empowering, the fact that they can have children from different men out of wedlock. Okay. And we know let's be frank, it was the from the faith, we see that a child out of wedlock is referred to as a pastor not so much today, the norm is that this is happening all over the place. Now it's an accepted norm. But for the woman to get herself into that place, where
she believes due to society, that having multiple children, outside of wedlock, from different men know whether she knows who they are, or she doesn't know who they are. This is this is the extreme end of gender politics from a female perspective. And it's one that's destructive, because when the child grows and wants to know who his father is, and you have no idea
what is being infused into that site, Child's psychological makeup, and their perceptions on society, that and this has happened, this has happened amongst some communities.
Going back to sorry, to go back to red pill and insulin, this I mean that there is a category of them who this is exactly their experience. They haven't had fathers, they haven't been raised that they've had no man in their life.
And they really, really miss that.
And they hugely resent their mothers because they've had no father and they've had no father figure, right? So we're not talking about, you know, people who, you know, obviously, understandably, have gone through huge amounts of abuse and have had to separate it's just that this is just, you know, it doesn't obviously justify
misogynistic behavior in the Senate, but we're just trying to understand what might drive a person to behave like that and things like that. And it just comes down to that great need that a boy has for a father figure in their life and a male role role model who is who is close to them, and to feeling that the feeling just the feeling that their mother purposefully in a sense, deprive them of that can just bring about huge amounts of you know, huge amounts of resentment.
But you know,
a woman because women will say as well, okay,
The job of marriage is to assess associate a man and all. That's part of the part of it, obviously. But then you've got women who are saying, Well, women are some women are highly Sexton. Yes, that's true. One, one part one partner is not enough. So where does that leave them? Okay, but that goes back to what we're saying in the beginning, right? About, I guess what you call a highly individualistic idea of the world, right? It revolves around me. And this is a big mistake that we make. And that even, you know, what we have to understand is that human beings, we are not just individuals, we exist within societies.
And there are that
there are things that are going to help society and that are going to cause society to be able to flourish and exist in a collective way. So what helps us thrive collectively, is not necessarily the same as what helps us thrive individually. And this is what I was thinking about the whole issue of transgender. Because when I was thinking about it, I was thinking, You know what, like, it's not that I really don't feel I can, you know, I was trying to think, what's it like for someone, right? Who just doesn't feel like what if you really felt I don't feel like I'm a man, I feel like I will a woman like you really, genuinely feel that right. I was trying to put that, how does that person
feel? Right?
And there's no doubt that must be horrible. It must be a really painful and horrible experience to go through. And, you know, we we should and could totally empathize with that person. And obviously, we want the best for everybody. However, the idea that the whole of society has to change in order to accommodate these particular issues that you have, if you think about that, that's insane. Right? Yeah. And you can see the problems and the confusion and that anger, and it's good. Unfortunately, I do believe that there's, this is going to go very badly wrong. Right? I believe this whole agenda is going to really cause levels of resentment that is going to, like, for example, they're saying there
are unprecedented levels of, you know, anti gay LGBT violence, right? How is that possible? With all of the everything that's going on? With all the awareness that's being created, you would have thought that it would be exactly the opposite? Right? Right. Well, I mean, I have my own theories. And my theories are because people feel resentment. They naturally feel this natural resentment, because they don't naturally instinctively feel they can say whatever they like and surveys, most people don't feel comfortable with it. Right. And it's not because they're bigots. It's not because whatever. It's just that's,
you know, I that's just our nature. That's just the nature. That's the collective nature. It's the nature of us collectively. Right? Right. And this is the thing. So the issue is that so this is the thing is that in society, we all understand that we need to make sacrifices as individuals we sacrifice to an extent our own individual preferences in order for the benefit of society. Right, right. That's what that's what civilization in a sense, is all about, right? That's what it's all about. We all have to make those sacrifices. As someone one of the brothers is making the point. In a sense, that's what marriage is all about. Both of us, both the man and the woman when they go into
marriage, and they have children and they have babies. What are you doing? Us? We talked about this Abdullah heart, right? And we talked about this before, right? This feeling of you know, and I won't lie I do sometimes. I struggle with it. The fact you know, 13 kids later, I still struggle with the fact that there's things I want to do and I can't do it because I'm a dad and I, I have obligations to my children. There are things that I would love to do with my life, but I can't write because I have those obligations. Right? It's not any more about me, me me what I want to do what I feel is gonna make me happy, right? And you know, some fantasy I have about what I want to do with my life
and you know, I have a family I have a wife I have responsible
abilities towards them and I am going to, you know, I am going to forego those dreams or those ideas that I have. Why? Because, you know, that's a responsibility. Right? So it that goes back to what the sister was saying, yes, it's true that some, some women may be, you know, are highly sexed. But what weakens? What I guess what we would say is what we believe is that it just, it will not be beneficial for society in general to accommodate that type of preference easily. Right? So yes, that that woman would have to find ways of expressing that. I mean, she, you know, there's nothing stopping her getting married. And, you know, if that man is not satisfying her finding another, you
know, there's different ways that she could express that it wouldn't be. And again, we're presuming that Allah has allowed a man to take more than one wife, because it's sexual, it may, that may not be the reason, right. The reason may be to do with, as it is, in many societies, it is a form of social care. It's a form of caring for the orphans, and the widows and the needy. Again, like, you know, I met a former UN ambassador from Nigeria. And he said, Well, where I come from, if you have money, and you don't have more than one wife, people think you're stingy. Because that's how we look after the orphans and the widows and the less fortunate by marrying, you know, by marrying those
women, that's their form of social care, right? It's not a sexual thing, right? It's to do with how they care for people in society. So there's many, you know, many, many different dimensions to this, I think. But I mean, I guess ultimately, for us, bro, it just comes back to well, you know, we believe that Allah knows our situation better than we know ourselves. He knows our nature because He created us, he knows what is good for us, not only individually and this is what is important, not only individually, but collectively. And this is the thing in this discussion is almost always left out the whole dimension of the collective. Right. What is good for us as a community, what is good
for us as an ummah, what are what is good for human beings as people who live together, because we're not just individuals. Right? Now, he must have a lot and I think that
says Teresa, I think mentioned the point that she was referring to Rohit connectome, in which it worked, a woman in Jamelia would come forward, and she'd gather 10 men, and she would say, right, one of you is the Father. And she didn't announce it to the Father red flag outside.
Men would come and sleep with her, and then she choose the one that you're the father of the child. Yeah, right. Exactly. And I think that what we've got to look at is, there's got to be acknowledgement and acceptance of what Allah has instituted for us. Yeah. And it goes back to what you were saying. And we're living in a society again, I think it's very so say, Me, myself, and I and, and we've been told, we don't have to accept anything. We don't have to believe anything. And conversely, we should believe anything that society throws at us, because it's something that everyone else wants to do the transgender
issue that you're speaking about, as well. And why do I have to accept everything society tells me is acceptable. When when you look at the shift to the shifting sands of time, 2030 4050 years ago, these things weren't prevalent, these things weren't being advocated. And many of us may have adopted some of the traditional values of our parents, which are in line with Islam, those of us who are converts. So it's about acknowledgement, acceptance. And last of all, is Abderrahim submission. We talk about Islam, Islam, Islam, and we like to talk to non Muslims. Islam means about submission. Submission doesn't mean that it doesn't mean subjugation. subjugation from what I understand of
subjugation is forced. Okay, we are not forced as abs as Abdullah's and amatola. We are not forced.
This type of slavery is a submission, because we want to submit unlike any other form of slavery, and that there were other forms where they've accepted because economic circumstance, whatever we're talking about man made things. So submission means that we're not going to be challenging these aspects regarding gender unless they've been abused, misapplied, but we're going
To accept them. And we've got exemplars in our deen to see how those have been implemented.
That's why we have in the Prophet salallahu Salam, the best example. That's why we haven't the generation of desire, but the best of mankind and the self that are there. So it's about again, acknowledgement,
acceptance, submission, complete sufficient submission care for, as we're told in the Quran. And once we do that, and we look at our sisters, we look at the Muslim woman, we look at what she sacrificed from what she could be doing, if she wasn't a Muslim, and those who have converted, and those who have grown up as Muslims and retain their Islam.
And if that doesn't evoke a love for them, for Allah sake, because they're doing this only for Allah sake, like I said, last week, the hijab is not for men, it's for Allah,
then we then we will start truly loving against each other for the sake of Allah. Conversely, or should I say, similarly parallel, when the sister looks at, the Muslim woman looks at what society is placing upon the Muslim man, and the changes that are there, and the wanting to emasculate him wanting to push away any aspect of masculinity, and him trying to be a man, as he understands it, within the societies that he's living in based on the dean, and that he's trying. And he's succeeding to some part, as long as not as long as he's not abusing his position. Yeah, this should evoke love, that this man is trying to be a Muslim man, adhering to the deen and implementing, as
best as he could, as a husband, as a father, as a brother. Now, if we give each other just that, and bring that to the for all of the time, after understanding that we all have to submit willingly,
then that gender politics will no longer become politics. It will be understanding the interactivity and the roles that we have. And contextualize in those roles, because they've checked some of them have changed some aspects, we talked about women having to support the household because of how things are fine, it's socio economically. Okay. And the men are accepting that and acknowledging that and not being threatened by that, once we understand that, then as a community, I believe, then we will not have the polarization or will reduce it. And the toxic elements that we've been discussing about discussing the last few weeks, Allah knows best, you know, bro, like, you know,
everything you said, sort of reminds me of that controversial statement that you asked me to clarify, you know, about, you know, but you know, what, when when there is love, you don't need the Sharia. Right. And obviously, we always need the Sharia. Right. The point, the context of that is, especially in math, but in many ways, it's that it I mean, obviously, you always need to Sharia but I think in the point of it from the point of view of human interactions, right? If we really had genuine love for each other, we really loved each other. You know, would we would we need rules around more amulets? Yeah. business transactions, divorce laws, inheritance laws, and, you know, if
that real, genuine, overwhelming love for each other was there, we wouldn't need it because everyone would just love each other and, you know, care for each other. But unfortunately, we don't. Okay.
You know, and sometimes you love someone and sometimes, you know, the same person the next day you, you know, you don't love them so much.
So that this is why we need the Sharia, we need the limits to be set by Allah subhanaw taala. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't really strive
for that genuine love and concern amongst each other. You know, as the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam said, you know, you won't enter paradise until you believe, and you weren't really believed to you like you won't believe until you love one another.
And we don't talk about that. Really.
We should.
But this is a charity. I mean, people forget, you know, Islam really is about love. It's about loving Allah. It's about loving each other. And I don't mean loving this sort of, you know, the way that in some people's discourse, love has been, you know, distilled to *. No, we don't mean that.
It's not us. That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about, you know, you can love someone without wanting to desire to have * with them. That's just absurd, right? As even as a concept, right, right. But yeah, this is this is really what I think bro this is
sort of off the back of what you were saying. I think that we need to nurture that we need to develop that within ourselves within our families amongst our children. Yeah, there's genuine love and concern for each other. And it's so sad to see this sort of hatred.
It really is sad it's shocking it's so negative. And it comes from a very bad place which sort of goes back to where we started. You know, this is just really shaytans plans what he wants to do the more he can divide us
the more he will divide and rule that's what it's all about. Me divides us your rulers and occasion remember when it comes to the as we draw to a close it comes down right down into our family unit when the only time he bliss gets off his throne which is above the water is when a che a team comes back to him when they're shouting, come back and says I've divided a man from his wife. Okay, and he embraces he gets up and embraces him since this one. This one. We also
did nothing Oh wait.
Also in Surah Baqarah, we see
the Bani Israel we saw when Allah tested them with Harold when my route. And they they they had, that they came to them for the magic to learn what Allah mentioned only this specifically how to divide a man from his wife. So we know that this is a perpetual battle that is taking place, how many of us are fueling and making it easy for shaytaan and society that we are living in to cause those splits how many of us have as women have gone and we some have had to let's let's be clear, some have had to do this because of the oppression and abuse of the husband or the father. But how many of us use those catchphrases and trigger words, within wider society. When we have had
disagreements or were split from our husbands. Not only are we saying that, Oh, he abused me. And he was tough when he's not providing for me or anything like that. And we're talking about in the Muslim world as well. But we're now using words of he may be a terrorist, he believes in Jihad and bringing the religion in to castigate the husband. How many times is the husband's now doing similar? Okay, she wants to go off to Syria or she wants to be she's got extremist beliefs, and I believe she's inculcating them into my children. And that's what I'm what I've seen on both sides.
I wouldn't be surprised if this is what lawyers and solicitors as you probably know, from that legal profession, they'll say, yeah, if you want your children this what you're gonna have to say, right?
So they are the shayateen step removed. If your sister show that you're, you're with society, move the hijab or the niqab or
brother remove your beard, young man or a Muslim man, remove your bear to show I've been in court abdur-rahim. I've been in court as a witness for a system we're going back to the 90s. White convert, okay, from a middle class background, distant relation to the Queen, I'm not going to go into much more detail was married to an Arab individual. And because she started practicing, she converted to the she started wearing niqab, she became on the Sunnah. And he was just
a nominal middle class, Arab. And in court, I will say when caught with this idiom say she's become religious. She wears the hijab now. She was the judge was a female and, and she looked at him who's come from an Arab country of Suit Tie, clean shaven. I'm British, more British than anyone else. Now. I love this country. I don't want my children to be brought up wearing hijab and everything has daughters and sons. And the judge ruled in favor of him. And basically said not only should there be no visitation rights, that there could be no contact between the mother and the children, especially the daughter. And if you saw the relationship between her and her daughter Abderrahim It was a
beautiful relationship now, we've got fast forward. The daughter despises a mum now who's still hamdulillah is practicing lives abroad now.
Not on the dean. None of the children are on the dean at all with the Father. And this is how this gender politics can play out in Islam.
of adverse severe way. And remember, this was the man who did distribute his ex wife. It we see it go from one side to the other and the other side back again. We need to know what it is to love for Allah. And to make sure that as you said from the outset you said last week, this is our sister in Islam. This is our brother in Islam and the challenges that we are facing by virtue of being who we are.
are
difficult enough. Yeah.
Rather than it's a great place to leave it that very profound
and sad but in sha Allah, Allah will reward that sister and whatever she's given up for the sake of Allah, Allah will give us something better in this life and the next us we should all remember that Yes.
Have a negative thought and think you know, but may Allah bless that Sisters of hon Allah you know, she's gonna guide you he wants to guide and he's a three wants to leave Australia you know, that's right. She has gone on to do some tremendous things my brother masala and
other children,
hordes, hundreds of children in a charity work and everything and may Allah places inshallah we hope we pray that Allah you know, causes her children to make Toba and to for that ALLAH to open their eyes.
Because in sha Allah, hopefully they will see the truth and realize
the error of you know, of how they've treated their mum. But yeah, bro, I mean, just Sokoloff. It's been another fascinating discussion. Like, as always, I think, you know, we have these discussions, it's almost as if, you know, every point raises another 20 points.
But I guess that's what it's all about. And I hope the I know Previously, we had people staying up all night until Fajr. Discussing and you know, continuing the conversation. So do leave your comments do let us know.
And yeah, if you've got any, if anyone's got any ideas about what you would like me and Dr. Baker to discuss, let us know let us know in Sharla we'd love to take some get get some ideas from you about some topics that you would be interested in that will be fascinating. Absolutely yeah. And how soon can you put the website up we how they can contact you brothers and sisters.
Yes, there we go info stream as co.uk Write to them let let them know they will let us know. We'd be we're happy to research if we're capable of delivering the topic we will do we won't deliver when incapable of delivering but yeah, come forward with what ideas things you'd like to discuss or hear discuss and we will do our level best and endeavor to deliver inshallah
I'm the liberal just talking about everyone. It's been a pleasure spending this evening with you, Dr. Dr. Abdullah hug Baker.
Dr. Baker, Mashallah. And yes, so that's it for me under him and that's it from Abdul Haq here, and this has been a piece of cake of cake. Salaam aleikum wa.
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