Abdur Rahman ibn Yusuf Mangera – Horse Meat Scandal Halal and Haram Issues
AI: Summary ©
AI: Transcript ©
Bismillah your Walkman you're walking I'm
just Smilla Rahmanir Rahim Al hamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen wa
Salatu was Salam ala say you did more saline water early. He also
happy adalah was seldom at the Sleeman cathedral, Eli AMI Dean,
Mr. Baird.
Very short message today, it's regarding what we've been seeing
around in the media in the recent days, recent weeks with this whole
exposure of meats being portrayed as beef and so on. And instead of
that, finding horse meat. What this shows is that despite all of
the checks and measures in place that supermarkets have, like Tesco
and other places, you can still see how
this system can be exploited. And the reason for it is quite simple.
A meat is a product that is very difficult sometimes to distinguish
between one type to another, especially when it's in not a
steak, for example, especially when it's kind of all minced up as
minced meat, or in some other form. And people are going to use
a way to make money, whether they by giving you inferior meat, or
whether by replacing it with something else. So this is a scam
that's happening throughout the world because it's just based on
human feeding. There was a if you look at the Muslims, we've we've
had this problem for a very long time where it's even more
complicated because they'll give you beef. So it is real beef that
they're giving you but it's not halal, but they're giving you real
lamb or chicken, but it's not halal because it's not done
properly. There was a an The problem with this is that it's not
just people who are known to be transgressors, like outwardly
transgressing people who are outwardly sinning who are doing
this. The problem with this is that it's just such a hidden
problem. And it's something so easy to hide, and that you have to
rely on trust. In this case, you have to rely on the
trustworthiness of the system that you're using. And that's why we
have certain organizations that helped to do this. So I want
example, in another country, where there was a madrasah with
students, and there was somebody who was related related to one of
the teachers so seemingly a pious individual who fed the students
their chicken from a farm that was not halal, saying that it was
halal. And maybe people trusted them based on what they were
seeing in front of them. Right. So it was chicken that they were
feeding them, it wasn't horse meat, obviously. But at the same
time, it wasn't halal, which is really important for us that we
eat halal in in that particular way. Now, the recent problems that
we're seeing with the what's going on in with the horse meat and
everything like that, it just goes to show how big the problem is,
and how far the problem has gone. And it's all over. Nowadays with
the DNA testing, it makes it easy for us to be able to check and
that's why it's going to become inshallah increasingly more
difficult to adulterate meat or to change it or to replace it, to
sell something else that to sell something in place of something
else. For example, in South Africa, there's a halal certifying
agency, which came under major fire last year, or about six
months ago, because clearly, somebody somebody took a
clandestine video, a secret video of the storehouse, of the store
rooms, their freezers and so on, where they saw that they were
taking the labels off very carefully using a heat gun, and
then they were replacing them so it was pork being sold as halal
meat, which was really problematic. It goes even further.
There were some packages of pork, pork, something that was said
Halal pork, meaning there's so much ignorance in the industry as
well from non Muslims who thinks that they can make an extra buck
by just putting halal, you if you go to many of the High Street
takeaways nowadays, chicken shops, nearly every one of them is halal,
whether it's owned by Muslim or non Muslim. I walked to one the
other day and it says Halal on the winning side. So you guys halal,
and clearly they were not Muslim or anything but putting the halal
sign up there will attract some customers, especially those who
are not very careful, who just want to find an excuse because
there's a lot of people a lot of Muslims who just say, as long as
it says Halal is halal, right? As long as it says halal, it's halal.
You're willing to give people you're willing to give people that
you're willing to look at it optimistically. You're willing to
give people the benefit of the doubt like that you're willing to
just trust them. Despite knowing that there's such a big problem in
the industry. Now we should have trust for people but when you know
that it can be exploited and a particular industry is very
vulnerable to that, then you need to be extra careful. And that's
what I think is the main message of today. You have to be really,
really careful. That's why sometimes what happens is because
I know the industry because I have friends who are working in
The industry.
Somebody tells me something is halal. And I'm going and I'm
checking, and they're telling me, Don't you trust us? Absolutely, I
trust. But the problem is like, I go to a meat shop or a taker and I
say,
are you people? Hello, can you show me where you're getting your
meat from and so on, and they get very offended sometimes. Right?
Although people are increasingly becoming a bit more tolerant to
that because they know that people are concerned. So he said, Don't
you trust so look, I trust you that you are buying from someone
you think it's halal, but I know the industry I know people who
work in this industry from top to bottom, and we know the problems
that are taking place there and the manipulation that takes place.
So you might be buying something that you think is halal. So the
shopkeeper is telling you it's halal because he thinks is halal.
Right, the restaurant is selling you Hala because they think it's
halal, but their supplier isn't holiday supply is the one that is
causing them a problem. Recent, some time ago in America, I was
working with another scholar who was working in this industry, he
was working directly with a meat supplier, somebody who sources the
meat who gets its sacrifice to cuts it processes it sends it to
the restaurants and takeaways he was very close to him and
everything. Later, he found out that he was also mixing what that
means is he had some halal. So you know, you've got a proof of some
Halal in the in the system. But then on the other hand, he was
mixing with the Haram because it's a fraction of the price. The
reason why there's a difference in this is generally halide is going
to take longer to process is going to take longer to cut, to
sacrifice to slaughter, because it has to be done in a particular
way. You can't just hang it up and just just kill it bolted, you know
or stun it in this way that just kills it. There's a very
particular way, especially like chicken is really really
difficult. It takes longer big if he has to be hand slaughtered as
opposed to just machine slaughtered, or as opposed to just
you know, next cut off. And the way that happens in different
industries.
If you go to the Middle East, even Egypt when I went to Egypt, most
of the non donor meat, so the chicken etc, you'd have to ask
them is this * * means is this locally slaughtered
because you could expect that anything that is locally
slaughtered in Turkey, for example, or Egypt, or any other
Middle East country, its majority Muslim country. So it's going to
be a Muslim slaughtering, so you can be happy there. But the
problem is with the meat, that is what they call misstara. That is
imported. That is where the problem is most or a lot of the
meat right? A lot of the meat unless it's changed recently, has
always come from Brazil, Brazil has a massive export of so called
halal meat and people who have gone and checked it out. They've
noticed that it's just literally a label, right and just certain
measures in place. They don't they don't do anything. A friend of
mine who went and they they checked a particular company.
They checked a particular company on the way they made halal sweets
because there's a big company in Spain that makes sweets, these
special jelly sweets, right. And actually it was my brother he went
from other Academy to go and have it specially manufactured he
sourced the gelatine, especially from Pakistan had it checked out
there by some of the scholars there so it make sure that he gets
it from the right place there as well because even in Pakistan, you
can have corruption in this regard as well. Right you know that they
could give you oil made from made from Donkey meat, right or from
donkeys fat or anything else for that matter. Because people make a
buck wherever they can write recently, there was a problem with
making milk out of in India making milk producing milk artificially
out of some would you call it a washing powder, and something else
that makes it look like milk, and even has a pH of higher than milk,
which is quite crazy. And it tastes the same? Because they put
the they put some flour in there and what was it some some kind of
sweet flour and so on in there and they make milk, it cost them much
less than to get it from a cow or a buffalo. And they were selling
that off. So this is a big problematic industry. And we're
hooked to me that's the other problem. Right? The Bowser Lawson
said in a hadith that meat has an addiction. There's a hadith in
water, which says that meat has an addiction. Right? And many of us,
unfortunately, were hooked to meat, which is really problematic.
The Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam was not a vegetarian. And
it's not you know, it's not in Islam. It's not encouraged or even
permissible to be a vegetarian, you know, just just because you
hate meat, or to hate meat for that matter, but it's not
something that should be consumed all the time anyway, going back to
the halal issue. So what when my brother went to this place, they
said, you know, the, the kind of checking, he went with the
haicheng He went with the HMC from here. And the company was quite
surprised. He said that we've had so many companies come before to
produce his so called halaal sweets here, they will just
literally look around a bit and then they would certify us. But
the way you guys wanting we're learning so much from you as to
what really is halal, what really should be halal. So this is the
problem with the industry Brazilian meat. A lot of it is
problematic like this, you can find the Brazilian meat processed
in cans in tins and so on with long due dates. And it says you
know slaughter
According to the Islamic way, that's what it says, who's Islamic
way? Right? There are scholars out there who will take the most
lenient opinion that are unacceptable sometimes, and they
will just certify something. Right? You have to be really,
really careful. Now that the thing here is that sometimes it's not a
deception. It's just misunderstanding or another
opinion. So I've been into stores in America where they say, we, we
have our machine slaughtered in this particular way. Right, we
have our, our meat slaughtered in this particular way. That is what
you call machine slaughter, we say Bismillah when starting off the
machine and the starting of the day, because they have a fatwa
from some from a scholar saying that it's okay. So they're not
deceiving you, they're saying it very clearly on the wall, but it's
unacceptable to the you know, to the majority of the Allama that
don't agree with that, for example. So you have to be
extremely careful. We have we have people who are you know, decent
practicing people concerned about their halal, but they will just go
with anything that says halal and that is not sufficient is a
problem in this market. There is a problem in this industry that you
need to realize, and you have to be really careful, because the
Hadith about this are very severe. The Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa
sallam said local agenda just said on who the bill haram, a body that
has been nourished on the Haram will not enter paradise that is
quite severe. I mean, we don't want ourselves and our children to
be nourished, with nourished with haram. I mean, we have to be
really really careful. There's another Hadith English, Salah from
this hadith of Muslim, where he mentions about this person who is
who who's after this long journey, you can tell you know, if you see
somebody coming back from a long journey where they've got dust in
their head, dust on their clothes, you feel sorry for them here have
some water, right? Such a person and we know in Islam also, that
anybody who's in a kind of a difficult situation, Allah
subhanaw taala loves them, he, he, Allah subhanho wa Taala supports
them and he has compassion for them. In this case, though, the
prophets of Allah, some strikes this example of a person who's
just come from a very long journey. And then he puts his hand
at the hands up and he's asking Allah subhanaw taala for
something, but But it says, I'm used to jaboulet Where is this
person's dog going to be accepted? Because His food was haram. His
clothing was haram. Everything about it was haram. Haram prevents
the doll from being accepted. And the believers do as extremely
important. That's why you see today SubhanAllah 1000s, millions
of people making dua for our brothers in Palestine in other
places, and fishing was not being accepted. Right on. There's also
another Hadith which mentioned that anybody who consumes haram,
the dollars will not be accepted or the worship will not be
accepted for 40 days. Now, that is a difficult one. Many people they
come and they ask the question that they have the concern they
have is that we were fed haram by mistake. Right? Woman said the
other day that she bought something she didn't check the
ingredients are because generally those that kind of a product is
generally halal, then she even fed it to somebody else. And later on
when she checked it, if she found out it was haram after a month or
something, she's really worried what she's done to somebody else.
Now in that case, we can just hope to Allah subhanaw taala that if
somebody has under misunderstanding, mistakenly,
unknowingly, you know, taken something like that. And generally
they're very careful Allah subhanaw taala just forgive us and
Allah subhanaw taala except outdoors, we can just pray to
Allah, Allah can turn things around. You know, there's no laws
that bind Allah subhanaw taala right. But of course, it's a
warning. So be very careful. Now. I don't work for the HMC, but I
know the people I know many people who work in there. And for me,
when I came back to England, it was it was a godsend. Because
literally you see HMC poster, a yellow poster at the you know, on
the door on the window. And you know, you can go and check the
certificate out inside and you feel comfortable. Because look,
even HMC or any other organization, nobody is perfect,
because there are just so many ways of deceiving. That's the
problem with this industry. There are just so many ways of deception
in this industry, right? It's just crazy. There's just so many ways
you could do this, you can have HMC meet, and you could also be
getting from another supplier and just do it very carefully, where
you put it somewhere else, or whatever the case is when the
inspector comes in checks. So there is no system that is
perfect. So just because hey, GMC, or any other proper organization,
right, in any other country, somehow in South Africa or hate H
M. A, I believe in Canada, there's the halal advocates in America.
They could have problems, there's going to be problems. They could
be managerial problems. They could be an administration problems.
They could be oversight. They could be because at the end of the
day, these are human beings who are working there could be a
mistake. You can't write off the whole organization just because of
a mistake that they made. Because the mistake is not systematic. The
mistake is not systematically trying to feed somebody haram it's
an oversight. It's a mistake. It's a
blunder, right? So you have to realize that yes, if there's an
organization whose policies are lenient to start with, whose
policies aren't thorough, their checking isn't proper, their
procedures aren't thorough, right? Then obviously, then you know that
you can't trust that organization. But when an organization is
generally thorough, they make a mistake. You can't take them to
task for it. When Nobody's perfect. We're not perfect. Nobody
else is perfect. No, no organization or business, nothing
is perfect. But to tell the truth out of all of the organizations
out there that I've, I've looked at HMC in this country. And this
is not a ban about HMC. This is just about trying to eat the halal
wherever you are, HMC just gives us assurance which we never had
before, that somebody has gone, and to some length in trying to
determine whether what's available in this shop in terms of fresh
meat, halal meat, oh, this restaurant is supposed to be
halal. There could be an error there. But you or I are not going
to find that error. More than HMCS HMC is better situated because it
can go and check it every day. Because one of the one of the
conditions is that the inspector can go in anytime and check. We
can't do that. We can go to the shopkeeper he said, Come tomorrow.
And he's got it all organized. Right? At the end of the day, it
could be anybody. But what HMC has the power to do we don't
individually don't have the power to do. That's why it's better if
we trust them. This obviously does not mean that anybody who's not
HMC is not going to be Hello. Right? You can't say that. Because
we don't know, they may have not just signed up for whatever other
reason, they may in fact, there are some companies, individuals
who are even more strict in HMC that won't even accept certain HMC
ways, which are really difficult. The problem is HMC can't go that
way. Because then it will really make the whole industry difficult
to get meat for, right? Because you have to have, you have to be
able to give the concessions where you can, because it's a very
difficult industry to deal with. So the whole point of today is to
show that we've got some major problem in this industry in
general, you can see that even big major organizations like Tesco,
who have huge amounts of resources behind them can be tricked, can be
deceived into selling something that they're labeling as something
else that they have to pull off the shelf. Look at the reputation
problem. Look at the problem this is going to go into causes whole
industry. I mean, the media is all about it.
The halal market, which is not even regulated, right? There's not
even a definition of Halal that is agreed upon in the government. And
thus, you can't even penalize somebody who's selling something
totally Haram is halal. Because there's no particular, you know,
agreed upon definition that everybody has agreed to, you have
to be extremely careful. That's why it's an individual's
responsibility. Where there's doubt try to avoid it as far as
possible. Where there is possibility then don't try to be
over where is where something is considered Halal according to the
orlimar then don't be doubtful, because just as it is haram, and
unlawful and wrong to make something Halal haram sorry,
something halal, or rather haram into halal, right and say that
this is halal, where it's not. It's also wrong to make something
haram something Halal into haram. So you can't be over you can't
instill you're overly cautious, overly cautious, extremely
cautious, opinion others, but you can definitely practice it for
yourself. Right. Now, the ways to be careful also is with
ingredients Be careful in what you're getting. Another problem
that is in the industry is cross contamination. For example,
Subway, a lot of people like to eat from somewhere because they
think they can get a vegetarian sandwich made from the right and
avoid the meat. The problem is that many subways from when I
checked it out last time and since then I've stopped eating from then
I think must have eaten when they once or twice in America, right?
Because it is the biggest chain in the world, the biggest food chain
in the world, right? So it's everywhere. Now
what what the problem is, is that they will use gloves, or spatulas
or whatever they use, and they will put it into the meat and they
will put it into the vegetables they don't have a policy from the
last time that I checked of having a separate way to take from the
vegetarian ingredients or vegetarian.
The vegetarian products and the meat products, they'll just use
the same hand for both. So there's cross contamination that's the
problem with subway is the only way that it would be possible is
that if you get to know the person and you explain your situation to
them, and they, they they're really careful. So they're not now
taking, they might say to you that okay, we'll use now a different
glove but it's already could have been cross contaminated from the
previous customers. So the only way that I could see this to be
halal then and this is a problem in pizza stores as well, right?
The only way I could see them this to be halal is if you talk to the
guy behind the counter, and they go and take from a new batch of
cheese or tomatoes or whatever it is. And then they are very
particular taken from the source with new gloves on and something
like that. Right? I can only see that to be the way otherwise you
have to be extremely careful. That's why I say really in this
country. You
haven't lived in other countries where this is a big problem,
right? We're dealing with minor problems here compared to in
America, I had to drive literally from here to Leicester, that
distance of 100, and something miles to get my halal meat. And
that was the one thing that I could not shop around for to get
the best price. Literally in Los Angeles, there was a che Molana
there was one of the scholars there who knew this industry he
was working with, you know, some of the advertisers and he was
working with some of the meat shops. And I would ask him, I
would call him up as I was on my way to LA with a coolbox. Shake,
which which shops should I go to? And he would tell me, Okay, this
time you go to, you know, this one on on Katella Avenue on, you know,
Brookhurst or this street or that street, I would go there, close my
eyes and order what I had to pay whatever they said and and bring
it back. And the string thing was that every month or two months
that I would go down, I would have to ask him which one is okay?
Because
there were very few that were trustworthy, where you could get
from every time the others they would be okay for a while and then
greed would take over, they would get from something haram they
would get from a haram haram source. It's just a major problem.
It's just a major problem. That's why the Sheikh was always on top
of it. Okay, which restaurant is fine this time? Now he says okay,
it's It's Chinese that you know, that they find this time. This
time, it's that you know, so and so. So you would, I would have to
ask him each time this industry is something you have to keep on top
of even when it comes to ingredients. One man, you can't
have a one man organization that deals with this because there are
so many ingredients in so many countries. Sorry, so many
companies, round trees, Mars company, Cadbury's company, the
crisp companies, the you know, the different companies that you have
the food manufacturers and so on. They're constantly changing the
ingredients. So you could receive a letter that okay, the glycerol,
the gelatin, you know, or, or the glycerin or fruit is from
vegetarian source. And then suddenly, two months down the
line, they find a cheaper source, they're going to use that. So you
have to constantly be in touch with them. That is why it's so
difficult. That's why as I say, organizations, like the HMC are
literally a blessing. Because they make the job easy, although
they're not into these ingredients and so as much as they are into
the meats and so on, but may Allah subhanaw taala allow them and even
others to get into the industry to even deal with a deal with that
there's a there is an organization in Gloucester I think as GM, WA
right, if you look for GM WA, there's a Mufti Abdullah in
Gloucester, who's mashallah working, who's been working on
these ingredients and things like that, again, may Allah subhanaw
taala give him more strength and more humor and more, more Baraka
in his time so that he can work on this a bit more, inshallah. But
the main point here is that there's a problem in the industry,
let us be careful, let us be Kevin, and you can't be too
trusting. Because there are two things in Islam. There are two
things in Islam where the default is that they're haram unless
they're proven to be halal. In everything else, it's permissible
until they're proven to be unlawful. So for example, if
there's some, if there's some, some kind of plant growing some
kind of fruit, it would be default halal, unless you prove that it's
poisonous, it's harmful, or It's haram for some other reason. But
when it comes to two other things, which is meet a number two, man
and woman's intimacy, that is, by default haram, unless it's made
halal, the first one the meat by a proper sacrifice, a proper
Slaughter from the from the neck where all the blood pours out. And
number two,
through marriage, right through marriage, or, you know, in the
previous days through possession, but generally, we're talking about
marriage when it comes to husband and wife, men and women
relationship. And when it comes to meat, it's about a proper
sacrifice. Right? The other day, I was at a farmers market, and
they're selling quails and pheasants and things like that
from a farm somewhere in Surrey or somewhere like that. So I said,
you know, is it possible for somebody to come there? And they
said, Well, these are shot down because they're wild animals. So
they shot down. So then I explained to the person they said,
Well, the way that works in Islam, is that you shoot it, right
because I've done this in South Africa, you know, you hunt, so you
shoot the foul or whatever it is, and then you run quickly and grab
the animal before he dies. Because he doesn't die immediately is
wounded, right but it will die eventually. So you grab it and
then you sacrifice it and then it becomes halal. So may Allah
subhanaw taala give us the topic may Allah subhanho wa Taala allow
these companies to get even better so that they can do better for us.
May Allah subhanahu wa taala kill keep us away from the Haram and
make it easy for us to abstain from it. And may Allah subhanaw
taala forgive any mistakes that we've had in the past of
consumptions of Halal May Allah subhanho wa Taala remove any
obstacles that are there in our path from our doors, that they're
not being accepted. May Allah accept all of our doors working
with our nine Al hamdu lillahi rabbil aalameen
bla